The Problem With Round Start in Fighting Games

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[@Romneto]

Fascinating topic. Great video. A correction about the switch glitch in MvC2. Using that glitch can be effective but it actually doesn't make your character's attack come out immediately. For example: Magneto vs Magneto. Player 1 uses the switch glitch and starts with crouching LK. Player 2 does a perfectly timed manual crouching LK. Player 2's cr LK will activate first and will get the first attack of the match.

[@TheoryFighter]

Thank you for the correction!

[@EldonMoore]

@@TheoryFighter In addition, the switch glitch in UMVC3 had another use having to deal with character priority called the Maluk Shield. If you play your team in a certain order and then hold your assist button, your point character will switch, but they will come in from a different port number and the targeting on certain moves or assists will change priority to another character. There's a video on it where it makes character order important based on which side of the screen you're on, but not many players use this feature to its fullest. The Japanese player Cross was the only one to use it consistently. I think the concept of an opening gambit is inherently flawed due to the nature of fighting. There will always be one person who is aggressing and pushing the issue, so when different styles of fighting collide, its never truly equal. By buffing one game feature, a tier list is thrown on its head in all games.

[@dbycrash]

I played this game at a very high level for a considerable amount of time having matches against all of the names you may know and some you may not(mixup for example… probably would have been more well known had he lived in a different part of the USA and not lost a famous match to row). I always understood the glitch as you holding the button and it coming out on the first active frame of the match. I could be wrong though… it took 20 years to figure out dhalsim can punish drones

[@amaterachu1]

Wait is it really a glitch or just a name

[@AdmiralBobbery123]

One of my favorite Round Start quirks is with MODOK in marvel 3 - you can't usually use command inputs like flight or super jump, but MODOK's regular jump is just flight, so by the time the round starts the opponent can literally be off screen while MODOK does his aerial keepaway.

[@Mikman360]

And the beautiful part is, you can't stop him either. The way to stop his ascent is to attack him, but that's not allowed at round start XD

[@blaacksugar7714]

Modok with the big brain plays.

[@xxsayabetoxx]

*slowly floats away*

[@overweightactor]

@@xxsayabetoxx *refuses to elaborate*

[@LargeInCharge77]

@@overweightactor REFUSES TO DIE

[@AnthanKrufix]

Meanwhile in King of Fighters 95, there was a certain stage which allowed a certain character to eat an unavoidable 0-death infinite on round start because they began airborne.

[@funnyname1289]

Please do go on about this

[@jerekaneplaysthings7755]

@@funnyname1289 kzbin.info/www/bejne/a5W9m6psga-epM0

[@LargeInCharge77]

They started off jumping down from a platform and one charcter (i think chin) would still be in the air for a few frames at round start. He would then get bodied before his feet could touch the ground.

[@h.m.5724]

Stupid Capcom stans always have something negative to say about SNK. It isn't a death combo more like 3 quarters but people make their own eg. Game starts after 1 second has pased or you're not allowed to hit Chin whilst he's still airborne

[@getthegoons]

@@h.m.5724 "It's not the whole health bar it's just 75% you can't react to or prevent in any way." Oh well if that's all.

[@jojokim5617]

I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with certain characters having stronger round starts than others. It’s just another pro of playing a certain character just like strong offense, defense, or neutral game. However I agree that the problem comes in when round start favoritism is out of the players control as in with Melee. that being said I do love the way melty’s round start places more emphasis on player skill rather than character choice.

[@Eaode]

yeah i agree, Round Start being in one character's favor, at the end of the day, doesn't have an effect on the game that's fundamentally different than the matchup itself being in one character's favor. In fact if you think about it a certain way, it's just _part_ of the matchup dynamic, but one that only comes into play 2 or three times each game. e.g. In Guilty Gear Strive, I play Giovanna and I'm pretty sure there's almost nothing I can do to beat Sol's best Round start options. I'm more or less forced on the defensive at the start of the match. But there's matchups where I'm often forced on the defensive in general (Sol himself being one) so it's not wildly different than what I already have to deal with.

[@ChildishBrandino.]

well i think the argument is that in some fighters theres literally no other alternative (due to movement systems etc) for me i think tekken has the best round starts

[@jojokim5617]

@@Eaode agree completely, it’s just another element to the matchup

[@jojokim5617]

@@ChildishBrandino. I mean, as long as it stems as a part of a character choice made by the player (i.e. not due to what port you choose or other external factors) I don’t see a problem with non-neutral starts even if a character has no options other than to retreat

[@IsaSaien]

Yeah melee is literally the only one that made me go "yeah that sounds unfair" All the others sounds alright, with no movement start being the one I think is the most fair.

[@twours]

We all know that the optimal round start strats are Teabag or Taunt

[@lordtikidecancer]

I Confirm

[@EBKDanteMustDie]

Deadpool has a taunt that can be cancelled and people always fall for it 😂😂

[@Vinvulpis]

I do that as my greeting all the time in Smash. Two crouches.

[@Spingerex]

@@EBKDanteMustDie Trollpool

[@richarddavis8863]

@@Vinvulpis I main Peach and if I run into a Zelda, Daisy, or other Peach I always hold down for a second or two to "curtsy" for the other princess

[@jarroddobben]

This reminds me of chess. No matter what, white always starts with a miniscule advantage. It's something that creates emergent gameplay however, and like in the case of melee this benefit can be applied to either player regardless of skill level.

[@anotherinternetperson8495]

If your at a higher skill level than your opponent you can tell what they want based on their first move Its why I let my brother play white

[@ineden28]

@@anotherinternetperson8495 not sure about that. A lot of openings can transpose into another. Also there are many openings where you keep the tension without commiting the minor pieces or whether you are castling king or queen side.

[@firetarrasque4667]

@@anotherinternetperson8495 Fun fact: Statistically, the advantage in chess actually goes to white!

[@UberGingah]

@@anotherinternetperson8495 when you're playing against humans this is true but if both players play perfectly (computers) white should always win or draw

[@IsaSaien]

White does not have a slight advantage, it has a really large one. At top level, perfect play as blacks sees you tie, while perfect play as whites sees you win.

[@calamarikurusu3214]

I think characters having weak or strong round starts is an important part of balancing, at least for certain games. In Skullgirls, my old team had Robo Fortune on point, and while she is a very good character to have out early and benefits a lot from assists, her round start is so weak that running her as a fake anchor (i.e DHCing her in ASAP) is an equally viable if not more viable strat than what I did, and I think that's really cool. I do really like Melty's round start, but I don't think there being an inbalance in round start is a bad thing; it's just another strength or weakness. Great video, I definitely haven't thought about round starts very much until now.

[@vyor8837]

Only really works in tag based(I think that's the term?) fighting games, not something like Smash or SF.

[@codeisntreal]

clover

[@xero18]

I would kind of like to see a Marvel game with a neutral start. Weird I know but in general, majority of the cast is at a disadvantage compared to the top tier cast.

[@DripNZ]

Robo just doesn’t have bad roundstart, especially with assist. Jhp and super jump are great

[@calamarikurusu3214]

@@DripNZ Superjump gives you mediocre reward and j. HP gets very easily stuffed out She had good round start against like, Peacock, but with everyone else it’s very easy to just stuff whatever Robo does out

[@hecksnek6158]

killer instinct does something cool with round starts, being you can start a round with less health or a better position than your opponent.

[@therealbahamut]

Well in KI the "rounds" are just kind of seen differently. Whereas most games you have separate health bars and round starts, in KI it's really just one big health bar that your opponent cannot deplete in a single combo. You're simply guaranteed one wakeup and reset no matter how hard he hits that first bar. It's closer to the MVC mentality where you just get a quick moment to catch your breath before the game continues. KI has always approached things differently and that's why I've always loved it. It also means that none of your damage is wasted between rounds; you'll always have to do exactly two bars worth of damage (characters with lifegain mechanics notwithstanding anyway.)

[@nutthewhat]

We can also use Vamp Sav as an example if we can use KI as one due to its round starts with possible lower health. Sort of gives that KI feel but with faster reentry into the match.

[@therealbahamut]

@@nutthewhat Yeah the two use exactly the same mechanic. There's no "rounds" per se; just two health bars that have to be drained separately, so that no matter how long a combo can get, it takes at least two 100% combos to end the match. I find it creates a more seamless battle with fewer interruptions.

[@nutthewhat]

@@therealbahamut I wonder if that might be the future to round starts. Where now there is short dialogue to "Round 1. fight!", will there come a game that will start a trend of short dialogue to seamless fight start like Tekken 7 story mode fights?

[@therealbahamut]

@@nutthewhat Fighters do seem to be talking a lot more in modern games...sometimes WAY too much, if you ask me. Listen to a street fighter match: characters talk so much they interrupt THEMSELVES mid sentence.

[@colgatecrescendo]

I think the coolest round start movement implementation in a fighting game I've played is in JoJo HFTF, which works on a FT2 rounds system where in between *each round* both players are allowed to use any movement option they have, and turn stand mode on/off. The kicker is that both players also start the countdown where they were last standing (I. E. the KO'd player starts moving from where they get up and the other player starts from where they last stood), which leads to cool scrambles and mindgames to keep the opposing player where you want them to be, and even crazy baits and mixups with reads and last minute repositioning. What's really cool though is that on the Final Round (which only ever happens if a draw or double KO happens), both players can actually start attacking BEFORE the text declaring round start begins, which adds EVEN MORE trickery, and it's always a treat to see. Even though it's still subject to the problems of any other movement round start (even more so since JoJos is one of those games where getting cleanly hit once against a competent player leads to a 70% combo, then into a 50/50 mixup or worse), I'd say it adds a good amount of depth to the game that I haven't really seen elsewhere. I really hope to see the idea implemented in another game.

[@leirbag1595]

Having the round starts require so much planning and cunning to use well, and needing to use gambles to keep one's opponent in the perfect position for yourself is so much fitting for a JoJo game

[@fluury]

happy you mentioned melty, it's roundstart is by far the best for airdashers.

[@NBSilentShadow]

In SCVI, round start distance varies depending on how big the stage is, which is pretty neat and adds stage to matchup variables.

[@Saskaruto16]

SC does also have some of the strongest round start advantage though. Short and even mid range characters can be heavily disadvantaged.

[@I_recommend_suicide]

Even aside from just range in SC you also have the additional layer of (often asymmetrical) ringout stages. Depending on the stage and matchup it's possible to be a couple wrong guesses from death at round start. Sometimes you get knocked down, tech into asta 214 A or whatever and that's the round lol

[@Hoarseplay]

SCII & SCIII had a set of different round start positions that would change randomly after every round.

[@Saskaruto16]

@@Hoarseplay I liked that a lot. No way to lab out the perfect opening for each matchup and no one character always had the advantage.

[@NBSilentShadow]

@@Hoarseplay Yeah I remember that, it was really cool! While it didn't change the distance between the characters, it influenced the distance to the ring edge behind each player.

[@heardofrvb]

Found something funny about this. In Plasma Sword, Zelkin and Eagle have dashes that actually hits the opponent, adding that to pre-round movement and...yeah.

[@Ramsey276one]

ouch

[@biscuitguy4083]

The M2K clip on pokemon stadium is so good. That's some weapons grade grime right there

[@NixViche]

its funny cuz you know he picked pokemon stadium just to do that

[@yanto9788]

Tekken 4 deserves a mention here as that game allowed full movement during the countdown like other games talked about in the video, which led to a lot of people wavedashing and dancing around each other at the start, but most importantly one of the key features in that game was that stages had some wacky environmental features that meant that the pre-match scramble allowed players to fight for a real positional advantage at the start of a match

[@diddlenfiddle7311]

Strange that was only in 4

[@sabin97]

i did something more evil. i use lei. so i went into snake. and from there to panther. and my opponent would have to guess if they needed to block high or low....i would make it super random

[@methanesulfonic]

Remember that Iori vs Chin matchup on Italy' stage? lol

[@lisandroiribarne1141]

I don't know much about kof metagame. So could You explain?

[@kevingriffith6011]

@@lisandroiribarne1141 It was explained in a video, but I'll see what I can do: At the start of the round on the Italy stage, both characters have a little cutscene where they jump off of a bridge into some shallow water, a neat little flourish to be sure... The problem is that it doesn't wait for everyone to finish the animation before the round start, and Chin, being much shorter than usual and with a high jump, would actually still be airborne and uncontrollable for several frames after round start. This means that Iori can actually hit him during this animation and initiate an infinite combo before the Chin player can even control their character, creating one of the rare 10-0 matchups in fighting games.

[@bageltoo]

HBTB talks about it here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/a5W9m6psga-epM0

[@Ramsey276one]

@@kevingriffith6011 W T F XD

[@Ramsey276one]

@@bageltoo Thanks

[@chaotixspark7934]

It's weird that the assumption is "Round start is supposed to be neutral." I feel you missed a huge opportunity to take the entire conversation in a different direction. Like how some characters can be designed to have trouble in the beginning of round start, but getting momentum can reward good play. Or how some characters can be designed to excel in the round start. I think the best example i can think of is in my main fighting game, Uniclr. Byakua has decent buttons, but often has to be careful at round start and can't just start his web game immediately. Phonon on the other hand has several buttons that beat out options that beat out her other options. 623b is the most common round start for phonon. Its a pillar that rises from the ground and will beat out most options depending on the character. Phonon can also do 4b which will reach, 2c if the opponent takes a step forward. tk236b as a low crush, or even jump back j.236b as a general answer to all. There are answers to each one for phonon, but the risk to challenge is a lot scarier than for phonon to just go for an option. Meanwhile Byakua's options are usually pretty limited. 66b is a common option for a lot of byaks to choose, which can be low crushed or even challenged by some characters. So byak's best option against Phonon is actually to block. 623b will give byak his turn back if he blocks, meanwhile anything else will keep phonon's turn, but byak wont eat 3k for pressing a button when he shouldnt.

[@chaotixspark7934]

Last thing, about Melty Blood. Something you fail to mention is that this can also affect the meta of which characters are better. Characters with worse movement options can suffer against Aoko or Archetype Earth since Aoko has a triple jump and AE can fly and unfly at will, which is not "neutral" by any means. It's weird that you say this solves all problems without knowing the game you're commenting on.

[@SharpFoundry]

@@chaotixspark7934 Chill out m8

[@Felix.Dragon.]

@@SharpFoundry wym?

[@mavi4697]

@@chaotixspark7934 Neither of these are good examples nor reasonings for skewed roundstarts in Melty, so it's a little weird for you to say that. Hime can't fly during preround movement, and it'd be a questionable option preround anyway. Her roundstart is fairly good, but mostly because of her ground movement and kit - she can set up good spacings and scare opponents off trying to RTSD immediately with her walkspeed and buttons. Likewise CAoko doesn't want to put herself in a situation where she immediately has to gamble on burning air movement options roundstart. Good roundstart in Melty is generally more about ability to rapidly close space, win scrambles, and catch jumpouts, and even if you don't have that you can at least leverage superjump, iad/iabd, etc to create space. The point that its roundstart mechanics go a very long way towards equalizing roundstart across the cast, at least within that specific engine, is a valid one. If a character has clearly subpar roundstart in AACC, odds are that character just isn't very good overall.

[@chaotixspark7934]

​@@mavi4697 Ah gotcha. I'm actually not that familiar with the Archetype match up. I'm just afraid of her in general because she runs in and the mix begins since I'm usually running C Miyako. Also makes sense to not burn all of your options, but i think at beginner level, most people just let things happen because answers aren't known, so a lot of the time run up throw or falling buttons are usual round starts around here. Im definitely not good at Melty, i dont play it enough, though i need to start playing it more especially since the community edition has roll back.

[@juanastorga6482]

TLDR: MELTY IS KING GO BUY THE NEW GAME

[@phoenixlich]

here's a thought: make a button correspond to a certain part of the stage or screen (e.g. middle, left or right) for both players so they can sort of decide (but keep it hidden from the opponent) where they begin a fight on the stage up until it begins. obviously you'd have to do some camera tricks with the countdown so people are looking at a blank stage or whatever and the fighters just materialize. maybe decide before the stage intro ends? regardless, you could get into some fun mind games with it because you'd like to believe you could predict where your opponent would choose to start a fight based on their strengths, but they know what you know, and vice versa. So you might end up next to each other unintentionally or full distance opposite sides, and every round it can vary.

[@AlluMan96]

Having picked up Melty around the end of last month, wihle I enjoy the little minigame of position jiggling at round start, it's sort of a double-edged sword at the same time, at least at a beginner level. As a session of playing goes on, it becomes more and more clear that this can become a little bit mentally demanding. While the act itself is simple, it also means that between round 1 start and the end of the set, there is little to no pause in thinking. Every second spent on a set is spent thinking and acting, you don't have any time to just pause and collect yourself. In games with neutral start, while it may not be entirely neutral, it does give a moment's reprieve. I can clear my mind, blow off a salty round or just stop jamming the buttons for that one brief period. In Melty, your rebound has to be instant, because your immediately back to the fight as you have to make sure the opponent doesn't just get free reins to position himself perfectly. It's not a game-breaking issue, but it does decrease the lifespan of any session of that game without taking active 3-mintue breaks in between.

[@Sorrelhas]

I may the talking out of my rear, but isn't charging allowed during countdown to allow a character like Guile to contest stuff done by other characters at round start? Like a jump-in or a move with lots of forward movement

[@snawbird3587]

Yep

[@affegpus4195]

Depends on the character

[@badassgenevideos]

It was mentioned in the video.

[@Sorrelhas]

@@badassgenevideos But his phrasing made it sound like it's an unfair advantage

[@walterruth5901]

In my opinion, that Ken at 1:45 is garbage. Nobody with a DP would've ate that headbutt at round start.

[@patrickg5648]

I always felt like in games where you can’t move at round start, having good or bad round start options was just another strength or weakness of each character, and would even vary depending on matchups

[@justcallmeseth]

Babe wake up, new TheoryFighter video

[@zachstarattack7320]

Saw this video immediately thought of Potemkin doing round start kara buster in strive hhaha

[@Cheez1000]

the best round start

[@Quicksilvir]

It seems less of a "round start does not allow true neutral" and more "true neutral doesn't exist unless you are playing the mirror match". Even in games where you can move pre-start it would seem to advantage characters who can use their options to get to their preferred range. The best round start option probably heavily depends on the game systems and the character's options.

[@axellyann5085]

I think even Tekken dont has something like true neutral in round start. For example, if im facing a Claudio and i decide mash jab just to see what he will do i can lose to his hopkick because the range at the start favors him a lot even tho a jab is usually 5~6 frames faster than a hopkick.

[@t4d0W]

@@axellyann5085 Tekken has always been like that. I feel the perception of Tekken as an frames game and analyzing it via excel spreadsheets is how you lose to player who understands spacing the best. Sure a jab is faster but its not recovering faster ON WHIFF so a slower 13 frame launcher with absurd range (read Claudio hop kick among other things) is going to eat that up. Folks get confused but I'm looking at them like 'learn to play the game'.

[@axellyann5085]

@@t4d0W sure, tekken is about spacing but there's no such thing when the round start and if i mash a jab and my opponent hopkick (Claudio) even if we press the button at the exact same time I'll lose to him because he has better range. The point as the video says is that some characters has an advantage at the start against others and this doesn't exclude tekken. Using that example I don't think Claudio hopkick can beat Leo jab because her jab has range too, but for sure there another character that can beat her jab at start. We can't

[@t4d0W]

@@axellyann5085 Well that is the mind game. On block Claudio hopkick def is punishable so if they are gonna try mash that on RS and you choose to be defensive, then you will be rewarded. Besides using jabs to 'test' opponents attacks on unideal ranges where it whiffs is a horrible strategy altogether. So the video is right In a sense it excludes Tekken because you can't buffer any presses pre RS to have it come out at RS. If you commit to an obvious bad strategy at that situation you will get punished .

[@matshbocks]

But even still in melty blood, pretty much everyone has the same options round start, those being walk, run, jump, double jump, super jump, and air dash(besides Aoko who gets an extra for both jump moves), and you cannot really use your tools pre round start, so it's definitely mostly about person to person interactions rather than the Charcter interactions in that state.

[@Eddiegames9]

The issue with Melty Blood's is that it favors close range characters generally, since it's quite hard to gain notable distance from your opponent at round start when you can keep them away with buttons, however it is true that neither player is ever securely in a better position

[@Jaymez2012]

Yeah, I think I agree more with the comments of this video. I think it's a little reductive to assume that 'round start' is a 'problem that needs a definitive solution'. I think it's more a situation of 'another tool the developers might want to consider balancing around'. Round start works differently in different fighting games because they're all BALANCED differently. And I think the very fact that different games approach round start in different ways is a testament to the devs actually putting some thought into the game's balancing. A game having a static or more dynamic round start IS a choice the developers do have to make. And I don't think one is right or wrong or better than the other options, really. Also, what about mid-match round starts? Take MK, for instance. MK11 has neutral, mid-screen round 1's, but both players start round 2 where round 1 ended, meaning that whoever won round 1 usually has a greater advantage going into round 2. This is another quality the game has to at least consider balancing itself around.

[@kennethpowell4158]

For 2D games, I prefer a neutral start, but with some personality added. One of the many things I liked about 3rd Strike was that practically every character had a neat little intro when the match started, and characters with rivalries had special intros. It gave the game character. In 2D games in particular, a neutral start strikes me as being about as fair as you possibly can be, because for most 2D games you are only going left or right and at a rather limited distance. For 3D games, however, I like how Soul Calibur VI does it, where spacing is dependent on the stage. One can either let the stage be set at random, making things fair if not necessarily equal; or you could let a player choose the stage before the match (if I recall correctly, I think SCVI has it so the settings can be set to let players take turns selecting the stage). That adds a layer of strategy, and allows a lagging player to seek needed advantage. It's not perfect, but I think it works well overall.

[@dominicanfrankster]

Very well presented, and not something I have ever even thought about. Kudos.

[@CaptCurtis]

The fact that this video isn't 20 minutes long is such a relief, I honestly can't think of anything that's wrong, good job thank you for the good video. no filler bullshit period.

[@LordRaptor]

I've always liked the concept of movement before round starts, It's really cool to be able to sort of strategize and position yourself accordingly, the Marvel games allow for a limited movement, but in a game like Tekken 4 for example, where not only are you able to move in every direction, jump, sway and dash, but the game is in 3D and the maps are very uniquely shaped, I love playing that game competitively, even though it's not very properly balanced.

[@zhaoyun255]

That reminded me. Kohaku/Hisui from Melty Blood was allowed to tag back and forth between round start. The most common strat was that because the round start visual obstruct your vision in some character, you can confuse your opponent with the constant tag between the sisters, hence making very hard to predict who's going to be the lead because you CANNOT HIT the sub character of Kohaku/Hisui.

[@someaccount5200]

well you can still hear the audio cue

[@aqgpandemic5406]

Ahh Melee’s round starts, the most infamous cases of those are always with M2K, he’d constantly go for the advantageous spawn positions and if he was on the receiving end of the same situation he’d complain, call for a neutral start or for the match to restart. The most infamous case of this is where he had a disadvantageous start position and immediately got hit for a small combo, so he complained, changed controller ports then using his newfound spawn advantage instantly took his opponent’s first stock when they restarted the game

[@cise3895]

Pretty sure he was in every single one of the clips in the vid lmao

[@Saskaruto16]

One of those was sfats fault though. Him and M2K had agreed to neutral start. But Sfat didn't like that M2K was dash dancing on his end of the stage while they were waiting for the countdown so he said no neutral start next game. So because there was no neutral start next game M2K instantly killed him.

[@dragvrallass1658]

i mean dash dancing isn't neutral in melee at all.

[@remixtheidiot5771]

A switch fighting game called one strike has a really interesting match start. Certain matchups start both characters in different positions rather than having every match up start the same. For example, Hangaku starts fights closer to the edge of the screen while her opponents start closer to the center, unless it's a ditto match. Giving her less room to back up but also giving her space and time to actually throw her slow but incredibly long ranged attacks.

[@zipsnap]

If I would design the round start in SF type games I'd probably put in a sort of shove function that kinda looks like a throw break animation or push block for characters that like to hold forward if they get too close

[@Evergladez]

I'm pretty sure doa gives you free movement options including side stepping. Depending on the stage you can even hide behind a tree and set up mind games early on.

[@oinkoink1909]

Sometimes I forget about dead or alive it's pretty fun

[@Ramsey276one]

Ayane: .... If you want to run, I won’t pursue you. Or... Zack: I thought I was supposed to be the clown here! XD

[@user-pm3wn5er9d]

At this point I'm pretty well convinced that the so-called FGC has some obscene hatred for DOA and intentionally ignores its existence. They'd rather acknowledge Smash than DOA despite many of them claiming Smash isn't even a fighting game.

[@Evergladez]

@@user-pm3wn5er9d from what I've heard from the doa community is that around doa4 it was really popular and even got broadcasted on like spike TV and mr wizard old Evo guy felt salty about that and tried to always keep it out of Evo. My observation is that a lot of fg players are biased against girl characters, lucky chole and Marie rose were hated for being cute characters while also anytime a girl character is "hot" they say things like booba, waifu fighter, etc. By and large they only seem to praise Tom boys like mokoto and baiken and with doa being predominantly female that poses a problem. There's also a lot of people that are now saying tekken 4 is cool when weirdly everything to brought new to the series exist in doa which also implements it better. Honestly if doa7 introduced more cooler males I guarantee the perception would change.

[@anon3631]

@@Evergladez americans are just puritans, they prefer gore over sexuality for some reason

[@LordHollow]

There's really no way to have a truly balanced start. Characters are too different with many advantages depending on the range. We'll just have to suffer through that aspect of the game.

[@oraora8214]

Melty Blood have the true balanced start - a balance where your screen position is determined by your skill vs the opponent skill. And if you end up in a bad position you always have the option of increasing your skill before later matches. It is similar to how starting position is determined in formula 1 racing.

[@V2ULTRAKill]

@@oraora8214 not true in the slightest Round start is determined by which character has the better movement options giving an abject advantage in position jockying Give that same round start to a guilty gear game and millia would suddenly have the best round start in existence with her double air dash followed by chipps triple jump

[@mavi4697]

Interesting anecdote related to what you say at the end about preround movement not working in every game: French Bread enabled preround movement in some very early, basically beta test iterations of Under Night, their other big fg franchise besides Melty Blood. It was removed in favor of more standard round start mechanics. Discrepancies in movement capabilities and the more grounded nature of the game meant preround movement created more problems than it solved.

[@truecauseofchaos]

Great video! Great choice with Monolord too!

[@RetroWolf13]

Great upload I didn’t really think about this now I am conscious of this and it does my head in 😂

[@tanyaharmon6739]

I've never really thought about this. Great vid.

[@-Zakedodead]

I wonder if the range thing could be solved by the game just letting each character pick a distance from the center of the stage, or allowing movement before start but restricting it to your own half of the stage with an invisible wall.

[@cthulhusmop]

Good video - though I had to watch a couple of times because I kept getting distracted by Monolord's "Empress Rising" playing in the background 😆

[@sergeantonionzindros-luu2366]

saw and title and was waiting for you to mention Melty

[@doopness785]

I don’t think that swapping your lead character in MVC2 is a glitch. That was an option intensionally put there by the game designers And it even returns in the sequel.

[@absoul112]

3:45 The glitch isn't that you can switch out the point character at the loading screen, it's that doing so in MVC2 lets you hold a button and get an attack out on the first frame.

[@ballyhooch]

My solution: A private choice of position before the match loads. Each player picks their fighter and whatever else is necessary, as normal. But there is also a hidden input that you can enter, allowing you to choose from neutral, one 'step' back, or one 'step' forward.

[@muffinduck01]

Subbed just for Monolord Great video as well

[@chrismanuel9768]

Idea: Every character has a preferred start distance programmed in. The game then averages out that distance between the two characters chosen and you start that far apart.

[@matshbocks]

That would still lead to one character being disadvantaged, say between a grappler and a Zoner, the average is further away, which is out of the grappler's reach for a command grab per say. Rushdown and zoner would be probably worse, as it favors the longer range of the zoner itself if we go off of average. And with a grappler and Rushdown it's the closest I think we can get to fair if reads are anything about it..

[@gogomarioloshi]

It would still be unfair. Imagine being a character that uses a sword or kicks to create distance between your opponent, and then a grappler is able to start off with a 50/50 because they can get a grab as easily as you can swing a sword or kick.

[@AaronRotenberg]

The obvious solution here is the cake-cutting algorithm. Player 1 moves both characters to chosen round start positions, then player 2 decides which of the two characters they'll be playing. 😄

[@EliteAssass1n]

so player 1 chooses a zoner vs player 2's grappler and puts both players equally far from the corner at full screen. How would this solve anything?

[@AaronRotenberg]

@@EliteAssass1n You don't just pick position 1 or position 2, you pick whether you're playing character 1 or character 2. So in your example, player 2 then chooses to play the zoner and kicks player 1's ass. To avoid this, player 1 is incentivized to pick a fair starting position. (Puzzle: Figure out which assumption of the cake-cutting algorithm is violated by character choice/knowledge asymmetry that makes this not work!)

[@MokonaModokiES]

so you say that i have to learn every single character instead of focusing on one or a limited selection of characters because my opponent can literally just take away my character and i will he stuck with a character i dont know how to play with? What part of that is fair and balanced? you completely threw out of the window maining a character and the experience one has with mastering a character. Its literally like if you had Ginyu's super body swap on round start which sucks so much for the person that gets hit by it because they turn into a trash tier character.

[@mindbreak666]

Banger background music there mate.

[@LuckyQball]

Minds blown every time ... sick thoughts on the meta

[@Vinvulpis]

Very, very interesting. In the little game I've been picking at making, I've never thought about this. I just went with a basic sort of 1/3 screen left and right start, but this gets the noggin joggin for some possible ideas for how rounds start. The Melty Blood idea is definitely interesting, but there is something about the standoff waiting for that "go" or "fight" that is a nice presentation, but I'm gonna give it some thought for my lil project. Maybe some sort of option where an input or button or something makes something happen right before control is given, like a quick draw to reposition or do something just before full control is given, that way it gives players options to change the opening without being read with walks back and forth or whatever.

[@MechaHeretic]

Love the doom-metal soundtrack behind the commentary/footage. Great content too. This channel is frightfully underrated, and should be up with the CoreA-Gaming when it comes to breakdowns.

[@Roze_aye]

"During the intro, you can charge moves" Excuse me, you can *what!?*

[@ogslapslap8611]

i think a video on auto combos in the future sounds like something potentially up your alley, id love to see one :)

[@Halibut86]

I prefer the fixed position start. It puts you at a predictable range where you can lab all starting options for every matchup if you're so inclined.

[@casanovafunkenstein5090]

This video has made me curious about how a game where you could pick one of three positions to start in a similar fashion to how you would select which fighter goes first in tag games. It could add a bunch of mind games and strategy to the start of the round. Do you come in close with a grappler to make your strongest moves available on start up or do you anticipate that your opponent will try and zone you out and hold back a bit to mid/long distance from the central line so that you can take advantage of moves and strategies that counter fireball spam?

[@cloudnovalab]

The most interesting Round Start I've found recently, is the Dirty mechanich in Toy Fighter: you can move and attack your opponent before the actual "Fight!", but if you do, you get penalty with the announcer "Dirty!" on screen and lose a Super move bar

[@barokmeca]

Before you even started the video I was wondering if you were going to mention Melty Blood. I was not disappointed.

[@Comoesa]

unrelated to the vid but @TheoryFighter waht do you think of strive letting you gattling into slash from p and k buttons in the october update?

[@naomisisk4663]

Only round 2 here, but I think props needs to go to vampire savior. Instead of conventional rounds, you have 2 health bars and when the first one goes down, you get knocked down and given a chance to roll to a better position before getting thrown right back into the action.

[@therealbahamut]

Killer Instinct does the same thing. I think it's something I enjoy about both franchises.

[@shinsmoke]

Injustice: "Am I a joke to y'all?"

[@dariogonzalez8989]

@@shinsmoke "YES!!"

[@penguinmaster16]

sounds like a lesser version of how smash gives you invulnerability for a few seconds when you spawn back in after losing a stock

[@naomisisk4663]

@@penguinmaster16 full invulnerability wouldn't work in a more traditional fighter. It works for smash because movement is so freeform that the invulnerable player can just be avoided for a couple of seconds.

[@melvinshine9841]

How rounds start in 3D fighters is pretty interesting itself. Normally in Tekken, you can't move before the round starts, but you can be inputting stuff so almost all your options are open to you when the round does start. The safest thing to do is just immediately back dash as that can open up a whiff punish opportunity if your opponent does press a button as soon as the round begins. Tekken 4, however, did allow you to move around before the round started. My best guess as to why they never did that again is that would've given wavedash characters, primarily Mishimas, the ability to already have you in a 50/50 before the match even started.

[@t4d0W]

Tekken 4 also had the rare part of its game timeline to have uneven stages. As nice as the round start was it could help jockey into position for those Steve wall hit loops. DOA series kept the free movement on their uneven stages. But the game system wise is pretty different to make some form of comparison.

[@PokemonTrainerVince]

Now this is a great topic. I think no matter what there will always be advantages and disadvantages. Just part of the fighting game genre. But it is always good to point these things out to try to level the playing field. Like I said before, great topic.

[@Micha-Hil]

For each matchup, take each character's crouching medium kick (or their most basic poke) and multiply the hitbox length by 1.5x. Place them at the middle of the stage, using the average length of the two c.mKs, and you've got your round start.

[@Kelohmello]

It's interesting to see highlighted, but really this is just fighting games. A character having an advantage at round start is no different from a character having an advantage at neutral or a character having advantage when their opponent is blocking.

[@Kelohmello]

@Super Mario I don't get what your point is.

[@stolensentience]

@@Kelohmello as in, the videos are just some guy theorizing. You seeing the point is irrelevant.

[@stolensentience]

I agree with your op tho

[@MrTheMasterX]

Surprised you didn't talk about Killer Instinct for this topic. Great video all around.

[@Epzilon12]

I do wonder if it would be possible for a game to adjust around start based on the character choice. I guess it would be extremely hard to map out the location/distance differences between matchups based on where characters excel, especially as the roster gets larger.

[@canofnothing]

Very interesting insights, never really thought about this myself. I suppose it's just another thing that shows how no fighting game can truly be balanced unless you only have one character. But that imperfection is what makes these games fun. Could be fun to see a mechanic where players can choose spawn positions before the match starts, but the character doesn't actually spawn on the stage until the timer starts so you don't know where your opponent will even be.

[@gogomarioloshi]

To be honest, "fair" round starts would be unfair in some cases. It would have to take characters into consideration and that means all kinds of wacky things. If you are a zoner then starting the round far away from each other would be good. But what happens if your opponent is rush down or grappler? What happens if your opponent isn't a zoner but still has moves that have a big hit box or is some type or character that benefits heavily off of keeping people out with a sword or kick?

[@anonymousshawn9996]

It’s even true in actual fighting. A BJJ practitioner is already at a disadvantage against a striker because the BJJ HAS to get past the strikers attacks in order to get in their specialized “zone.”

[@melancholyentertainment]

I think something like Melty Blood with infinite stages would be really interesting from a positioning standpoint. Makes positioning at the start a very involved part of the match despite happening before the timer begins, and at least theoretically doesn't have the downside of Marvel vs Capcom where you're just backing yourself into a corner if you do anything other than holding forward.

[@shadou1234567]

for me its the same argument as teched parry. What distance should it leave the characters from each other? So close you can try grabing again? so far that it resets neutral?

[@KaneBlueriver]

I know many counters to my own round starts, but since people never bothered training or asking, well, what can I do 🤷

[@EpicChubs05]

Excellent video

[@Iqzzy-KO]

Good vid bro!

[@kaceejones2282]

In KOF after the the roundstart players often run roll or hop to get quickly in your face but the other does a special move to keep u way or ends up getting caught in a combo. Or in Fatal Fury after the round start players are already dashing and sidestepping or they use a special move to get closer on their opponents

[@2nocob]

Song is empress rising by monolord

[@nehemiahjandroep4568]

Good analysis

[@MoeMunnie023]

I love when you beat somebody and the next round start you can sense the bloodlust in their movements b4 the match

[@kfishr8]

Man I fucking love Monolord. But it was really hard to listen to the thesis, because I was head banging so damn much!!! Fucking sick video man!!!

[@ThanksIfYourReadIt]

You could easilly go a blind position pick. Both players press a button that is not represented on the screen in any shape or form (including if it was pressed or not) The game then calculates the distance of the 2 chosen button. Now you would say, okay but zoners go for edge buttons and speedy ones will tag them on next closest. Yeah but the buttons distance would be absolute. So if A-B-C-D, being A furthest away from D. So one player chose D the other anticipate and chose C, okay close match. However if D player choses A instead then the anticipator who chosed C now 2 units away instead of one. The distance and permutation can be increased drasticly with extended key inputs and more buttons included. After that event holders can chose a variety of ideas how to lock in picks fairly so the players will not know the other ones pick. The game can also televise the actuall buttons pressed to confirm pre-locked options were indeed the ones picked beforehand by the players trough the event holders as a third party. Or simply have a big ass man stand betwean them for a few seconds until they lock in theire choise to block direct view on theire controller.

[@MarMaxGaming]

It’s a neutral start but some characters will of course have their advantages… cool discussion and footage!

[@chibimentor]

Thanks!

[@KevinRobertsArt]

Interesting! Something I never really thought about. It just struck me as a novelty when games let you move around before the round starts.

[@bofaybaykweh]

I love when melty gets good attention 😁

[@IYPITWL]

There was a flash card game (Kongai on Kongregate) where you could spend resource to start the battle closer or at range from the opponent, with one person usually opting to not. There was a good mind game where your close range fighter might pick neutral and opponent is down meter because they opted to spend it to keep range, instead of both spending it and being at range (range was default).

[@TheInfiniteAmo]

So for a non-airdash fighting game, would it be a good idea to give each character a "box" of movement on their half of the screen to allow positioning prior to round start, but with a small No Man's Land in the middle? Optimally the movement areas would be sized so that two rushdown characters can be almost on top of each other, but Zoners can retreat to just past half screen and safely out of immediate movement options.

[@kirby89000]

I love at walking up to the game or when you start playing it is when i consider it the round start

[@agnesiskovv]

love the monolord bgm

[@Jellycent13]

Really well made video and it gets to its point but can we talk abou Gief SPD at 5:55? It deals no damage

[@calfriedman6981]

What about something like: you can’t move or attack, but while loading in, you can hold down something (a button, a joystick position, etc.) and that would determine your spawn position. You wouldn’t be able to spawn closer than center stage or farther than halfscreen away from center stage. In addition to letting you tailor your spawn position to your character, it would add some mind games as well-you could spawn center stage, but what if your opponent does too? Does your character work well if you start right next to your opponent’s? Does theirs?

[@kyleboardman3433]

That would actually be a very interesting solution.

[@misteryjeux]

This is pointless,because it would just result in you always picking the center,or always start the farthest depending if you are a zoner or not (if the distance is bigger than normal neutral distance in current SF,otherwise both start in the center even if they are zoners,because they would just lose screen advantage),so all matchups would be the two characters sniffing their armpits,or the zoners starting with less screen while the opponent choose the middle,or both are at the edge.

[@tonysmith9905]

@@misteryjeux Did you watch the video? This "solution" this guy came up with is not different really from being able to move before round starts. What did the video say about those rounds starts? Every one just moves to center of screen unless you playing Melty.

[@martmine4618]

@@tonysmith9905 there's a big difference between moving visibly somewhere and hiding an input that changes where you will spawn.

[@misteryjeux]

@@tonysmith9905 yeah,that's what I was implying...?

[@Sin606]

This is an interesting video, but now I have to ask, would you prefer a game where round start makes you and your opponent about 1 character distance from screen edge from eachother, and lets you half charge moves so you still need to wait to execute?

[@MJRLHobbyStuff]

Cool stuff

[@eltsilm]

M2K doing Hax and SFat dirty on the neutral starts is pure, distilled M2K.

[@rooster3752]

I really like the sludge metal as the background music

[@h8reset194]

As always, amazing work bro, hope you keep with this awesome work, it is really cool to see this kind of perspective about the details, really good :)

[@yargrobby5710]

You gotta mention Psychic Force 2012’s dang now I gotta go listen to the ost lol

[@danfelder8062]

Game designer here. This is a fun video. Multiple solutions come to mind in giving players agencty over round start (such as having one player choose their starting space, giving them the optimal stage placement, and the other player choosing their place next meaning they can choose optimal spacing but suboptimal placement). However, the true neutral start works fine. Just tune characters that liek to be further or closer from their opponent than the neutral position to be a bit stronger in other ways to compensate for this. You don't balance characters in a vacuum ignoring starting rules.

[@PolarBair8]

I became a big fan of Marvel's style of round start through Samurai Shodown 3, which also lets you walk during the coutdown. It's possible to buffer special moves for a brief window when it says En Garde! While command grabs are ridiculously strong (Genjuro can loop an inescapable setup if he reads your wakeup direction), you can usually chicken block, forcing them to go for high-risk anti-airs.

[@kesegoe9488]

Look man my screens youtubes touch function is bugged i didnt mean to dislike here have this instead 👍

[@joshuawebb7091]

Definitely take another dive into this topic later to include Injustice. It was incredibly famous that for a large portion of the game Superman was busted good due to a string called F23. This came out faster than anything in the game, had priority over everything, was plus on block and on hit and could be done into itself repeatedly. What made it worse was the range was huge. So big that at round start every character was within range of it meaning every round vs Superman guaranteed you had to block since even neutral jumping was vulnerable to it. This meant since no movement was allowed prior to round start Superman players could mindlessly F23 spam and keep you in blockstun eating chip for as long as they chose till they had you cornered or chose to do anything else. F23 Superman forced a lot of meter burn usage for armor or stage interactibles to escape him meaning both health, position and meter were at a disadvantage guaranteed vs him till Superma. Was patched halfway through the games tourney life.

[@greenhillmario]

Type lumina still has round start movement pog

[@any-jam4467]

Monolord in the backgroud? damnnn