2X4s Are Getting Smaller! - Builders OUTRAGED!

[@StumpyNubs]

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[@contessa.adella]

Same in UK. Big box stores like "Wickes" here sell CLS (Canadian Lumber Standard) planed rounded edge studs measuring 68x38mm (about 3x1.5") mostly for internal walls. Worse...if just order Lumber for delivery you get some bad twisted, crooked, bowed rubbish wood stock.

[@AraCarrano]

Even worse when looking for Eight/Quarter rough sawn Cedar attempting to match Exterior Window trim on a Home built in the early/mid 80's. Fortunate to have a local Weyerhaeuser Distro. Center that can procure something close.

[@603storm]

I demoed old houses when I was a teenager and I remember the first time I saw a real 2x4, it looked massive compared to a modern 2x4.

[@beans4gas]

Yeah. That wood was so dense that it ate nails for breakfast.

[@PandorasFolly]

Yeap I had a major house fire and my insurance had a replace with like clause. After demo we found out the house was built in the early 80s with custom sized wood sawn from wood from someone's land. 2x7s for the walls and 3x15s for the joists all made of old growth wood from a non farmed species. Had Insurance not been being Very difficult I wouldn't have bothered. I got a quote and it was something like 40k$ instead of a couple thousand. Insurance sent out an investigator just to measure the wood

[@RogierYou]

And the weight! Just count the grow rings! And try to pound a nail into an old 2x4

[@CrazyManwich]

My sister lives in a house that is over 100 years old and it has those old 2x4 and they are all rough cut around 2x4. Not a single one them is straight nor is there an even placement. And there were at least four different species of wood ranging from pine to fir to oak and one was maple. I think those old houses didn’t stay up because of great engineering but rather the fact that old growth wood grabs nails tighter than anything

[@davidjohnston4240]

My 1925 house has actual 2"x4" studs. I have to shim out when I do any rework to make it level.

[@derpymcderp42]

Next beef with the industry: Standardized battery packs for cordless tools.

[@draconic5129]

Yeah it would be really great if they were standardized, then it would be so much easier to get replacement batteries and chargers without having to worry about what brand the tool is. Also would be really great if they included USB-C charging in the battery packs and tools themselves, then you could just plug them in to charge and not have to worry about finding the battery charger if you haven't used it in a while.

[@jamiebiddix4302]

They'll do it one day but then have a proprietary cord to go to the battery.....

[@kevingrierson2331]

I think Europe is regulating this soon.

[@AnonymousAnarchist2]

​@@draconic5129I dont think USB-C would be a good idea for a multitutde of reasons not the least being USB-C is designed for smaller lighter applications. (Edit: Higher volts require thicker insulation and more space between connectors. Voltage is the ability for electrical energy to traverse through an insulator, and also the ability to push an electromagnet. Amps are energy used, and therefore heat to be disappated at the application. If a power tool had the same volts and amp draw as a laptop the motor would fail to drive any wood screws and then promptly MELT. Apperantly there has been a severe lack of public education on electric principles.)

[@qoolcat7383]

No, that would stop the innovation and improvement of batteries. When is the last time they improved our standard home batteries (AA, D, 9V, etc.)?

[@cottrelr]

Honestly, it doesn't bother me that 2x4s aren't 2" by 4". What bothers me is that they are not twice as long as they are wide. Their ratio isn't 2:4, it's 3:7 (3 half-inches by 7 half-inches).

[@PunkR0ckz09]

so you'd rather have them being 1.5 x 3? lol...

[@jameswalker269]

​@@PunkR0ckz09, yes. The ratio of the cross section dimensions is more important in some design scenarios.

[@mysock351C]

Then come up with some other metric than its dimensions to sell it by. It’s a bit like a bag of potato chips that is 75% air due to “settling of product.” If you know they will all be mostly air, stop selling me the extra bag. That and most of the stuff out here in stores has Peyronie’s disease.

[@jonmayer]

@@PunkR0ckz09 I'd argue 3.5 by 1.75 would be better.

[@redsquirrelftw]

Yeah the first time I discovered this it threw me off. It makes sense when you do the math but just goes against what I would expect. The rounded edges are also kind of annoying if you're using it for a wood working project. I guess in that case that's what the table saw is for, mill the boards the size you want and get rid of the roundness.

[@popdesigner01]

Sometime around the mid to late 60’s the standard size changed down by 1/8. A 2x4 was 1 5/8 x 3 5/8. I remember my dad who was a carpenter complaining about this.

[@danbumgarner1057]

I was about to say this.

[@divemonkeys]

With the technology now, they don't even cut to 2x4 now. I worked with a guy that was from a sawmill and he said the lumber is only 1/8" over size before drying, planing, and sanding. I don't remember if it was 1/8 over all or 1/8 per side, but the rough saw is still under nominal dimension.

[@randycosgrove3608]

I was just about to add my .02 to the size issue when I saw the reply by danbumgarner1057. He beat me to it. I bought my first " 2 x 4 " in the early 60's and they were 3 3/4" x 1 3/4". And dry. And straight as could be. I used to be able to use them right from the lumberyard as material to make pine furniture and accessories. Not anymore. Ah, the good old days.

[@robertfrancis4876]

That was the standard for a good while

[@lesliethiel2171]

​@@randycosgrove3608that's what I remember as a kid - my Dad complaining that 2 x 4s were no longer 1¾ x 3¾.

[@TimAZ-ih7yb]

We renovated a house built in 1965. Besides the smaller modern “2x4”s, the old wood was a lot denser with tight rings. Today’s builders are using balsa wood. 😊

[@longshot7601]

Home Depot '2x4's are the worse. They're so wet that they splash water back when shot with a nail. It's like they came out of the forest the day before.

[@mattymattffs]

The problem is more often than not the age of growth as well

[@srs1518]

Former lumber grade inspector: you are correct but there is a reason. Denser lumber has more value than plain construction grade lumber. Density is a factor of tree age. Denser wood comes from the older trees (in the case of SYP ~40+) and most have been cut and are holding up houses. Most of what is in stores now is 3rd or 4th cut and mostly plantation grown trees. There are even special grade stamps for dense lumber like #1 Dense and #2 Dense. Or Dense wood usually ends up in higher value lumber like MSR and scaffold planking where minimum load values are legally critical. So yes consumer box store lumber is generally less dense

[@srs1518]

@@longshot7601 if this is untreated SYP then it is off grade and should not be used. It will shrink and grow mold. Seriously, if you find untreated SYP in the store like this, notify the store. The whole load may be off grade. This would be like finding a fly in raw hamburger.

[@MikeBarbarossa]

I salvaged some 2 x 4 from an old tin shack frame. It had me puzzled, but cutting, it sure smelled like pine It puzzled me because it was so dense and heavy, and I thought " is this pine??"

[@jamesmurphy449]

Hey Stumpy: Framing lumber is sanded and rounded *to reduce its flammability* and not because builders have soft hands. Splinters and sharp corners are where wood generally catches fire when exposed to high heat. Also, if you take a 2x4 from Home Depot and measure the "actual mating envelope" it *might* fit in a 2x4 volume. Might.

[@Tool_Addicted_Carpenter]

I think that the everyone as a whole dramatically underestimates the size of the lumber industry and the skeletons in its closet. There's an argument to be made that the reason marijuana was originally made illegal was because hemp could be lumped in and be made illegal as well. Hemp is a very versatile building material that would be miles ahead today if it wasn't stigmatized back then. It's too much to go into but I do recommend doing research if for no reason beyond the fact that it's pretty interesting. The lumber industry was also very disingenuous during the pandemic. While they were happily charging $10-12 for a 2x4 as well as $100 for a sheet plywood, all while claiming a lumber shortage, there were more lumber trucks stuck at the Canadian border than any other time in history. We can't forget that the lumber industry as a whole is not many years off from being a TRILLION dollar industry. We all know what those types of industries will do to maintain a stranglehold on their consumers. They're no different than big pharmas or big oil. They will discourage innovation and take advantage of consumers at any opportunity.

[@HarryDirtay]

Trump put tarrifs on Canadian lumber just before the pandemic. It wasn't just issues with logistics. There was a corresponding 20% increase in costs. Same with steel.

[@crowznest438]

Well written. The lumber trucks at the Canadian border reminded me of the gas "shortage" back in the 70's when oil tankers were sitting out in the gulf of Mexico not allowed to dock so there would be a "shortage" that created the gas lines of people waiting to fill their vehicle tanks at the pumps. All designed to bring up the price of fuel.

[@eekee6034]

@@oakmot5477 I guess when you leave rough green lumber in your garage, you're doing something like the _seasoning_ they used to do. Seasoned wood was stacked and left for a long time, whole seasons or years, until it was ready. That stuff didn't warp. Old carpenters were complaining about the lack of it when I was a kid. I can understand why they stopped doing it in Britain, much of the country is insanely overcrowded and the space required to hold stacks of wood for a long time is very expensive, but I don't understand why it's also happening in the USA which has such large hardly-populated areas. (Note the seasoning is the British term, I don't know if it's the same in other countries.)

[@andrewdobbs7000]

There's an outfit, I believe it's called Hempwood, that's making panels out of hemp. It has a number of desirable qualities, but it's rather expensive.

[@kazman8560]

@@HarryDirtay In 2020 the tariff rate was cut from 20% to 9%.... May want to recheck your timeline there.

[@chrisfreemesser5707]

I live in a 101 year old house, 2x framing is 1 3/4 thick. Width also wider than modern lumber. Have an old 2x12 I squirreled away that was apparently left over from house's construction and used as a workbench top, recently lopped off 4 feet of it and ran it through the planer. Perfectly straight grain, no knots, amazing smell, 20 rings per inch. I just sat there and looked at it in amazement....this was CONSTRUCTION grade lumber 100 years ago...

[@rpenm]

Yeah, much of the wood in old houses is from trees that grew slowly in shaded, old-growth forests. Most of those primary forests were cut down for timber and farmland. Secondary forests just can't produce the same kind of timber.

[@hugegamer5988]

I have a house built in 1949 and it’s all the full 2x4 and even larger beams are full inch sizes. It’s all old growth lumber with dense rings. Every time I did improvements I saved the beams for other projects because it’s so much better than the wood for sale today. It really did depend on the particular mill back then because things sure weren’t as standardized.

[@vociferonheraldofthewinter2284]

100 years ago the population of our *species* was only 114,109,000. It's increased by about 8.08 billion in all that time. (Antibiotics are incredible) And we wonder why our natural resources have depleted and why the quality of natural materials have gone down. To get a tree like that, you need a long period of undisturbed growth and we just don't have the time to wait anymore. They just started mandating that lumber mills replant what they cut down in my lifetime. Thankfully, it appears that we're about to hit peak population growth and things are going to stabilize soon. (Birth control is amazing, too.)

[@thematt6705]

The ugly side you're not seeing is the acres of big, beautiful, hundred-year-old trees that were sacrificed for all that lumber. The reason wood is so different today is because all the "good" wood was logged and milled decades ago. We're building with industry-planted, commercially grown tress now.

[@northumbriabushcraft1208]

I was gonna mention that old growth forests made up much of the lumber but that jig was up by after the war, but I was beat to it haha. Today less than 1% of forests in my country are old growth... Idk what the number is for the US, I assume higher but you guys have some MASSIVE national parks, which I doubt are gonna be logged often.

[@cliveambrose2251]

In the UK we use: 4x2 sawn(100mmx50mm) for 1st fix, 4x2 PAR (Planed All Round) (94mmx44mm) for 2nd fix, or 4x2 CLS (Canadian Lumber Size) (89mmx38mm) when the boss is trying to be cheap!

[@77thesnake]

After my brother passed away in '22, I had to replace several old windows that were cracked or broken before we could sell his house. Some of the old window frames were too small for the replacement vinyl windows, so we had to cut out the inside inside jack studs and replace with new 2x4's. The house was over 100 years old, and I was so impressed how plum and level each window frame was. Those old carpenters certainly were pros. And they did it without power tools!

[@markpashia7067]

You almost got it correct, but not quite. The bane of all remodelers in the sixties was that there was a standard before this that was CHANGED IN 1964. They use to be one and five eighths inches by each nominal amount like 3 and five eighths, five and five eighths, etc. That sixty four change to half inch instead of five eighths made remodeling a total pain with us often having to shim out new lumber in an old wall. Replacing rotten studs in an old bathroom wall, shims to fit the new studs to be flush with the old studs. Often the same with kitchen remodels. Other places you could get "close enough" with a strip of corrugated cardboard, but where you needed precision, wood or fiber board shims were needed for that one eighth inch difference. It still happens today but is not as common since many of those old homes are gone. Not sure when that five eighths nominal started because it was before my time. I entered the trades in sixty five and right at the transition. Either way it was that same excuse. The one you used was the first excuse, but the change in sixty four was that the newer lumber was from "tree farms" that shrunk more due to faster growing species like Yellow Pine in the south. They planted millions of acres and harvested at ten years of growth. That standardization from wild timber supposedly required the one eighth in reduction both ways. I still have a framing square that is one and five eighths inch on the short arm so you could mark both sides to show stud location. That trick had to be changed to one that was one and a half if you wanted that feature to work correct. I eyeballed it for decades rather than buy a new square. That also meant that the sixty four shift was only an eighth each way so they could have cut 9/4 lumber and kept the nominal dimension but they were too greedy for that. It would have been an extra quarter inch in both directions. And yes, my grand father's house was sawn and built on site with full two by four lumber OF OAK. Talk about hard to work with after fifty years or more. Had to pilot drill and use soap on every nail. A bar of Ivory soap in the nail bag and drag the tip of every nail across the bar for lubricant. Oak is hard when wet but after fifty years of drying in the wall it was hard as concrete.

[@phillamoore157]

Here's a funny "noob" story for you that goes right with this... I just built a "room within a room" for a soundproof, music studio, and when going to pick up the studs, I combed the entire lumber area looking for actual "2X4's" because absolutely NOTHING had that measurement. Nor, did I know that a 2X4 could twist to the degree they can either. And "eye-balling" it does NOT work. I had no problem, whatsoever, with any part of the build, except the nightmare of framing walls with sh!t, over-priced lumber, that wasn't straight. I learned that after framing the first wall. Low-and-behold, my wiser self, went back and discovered that in-spite of being a little more schooled in CHOOSING the actual lumber, 90% of it all had the same issues from one degree to another. I was stunned at how poor the QC was with that stuff. Framing the walls wasn't hard...finding quality straight lumber was.

[@ronblack7870]

my lumber yard sell premium 2x4 studs as well as standard. we needed a skid of 2x4's which we buy regularly but they were out so they gave us a skid of the premiums for the standard price WOW were they ever way better. they were all full to the corners without rounded edges and were straight and looked fantastic. i didn't measure them so can't say about the dimensions. so inquire at your supplier whether they have premium 2x4's.

[@macmac1022]

I live in canada. In a full stack of 200 16 foot long "2x4" there were only 18 boards that were strait and did not have over a 1/4 inch of bark edges. One was curves so badly that we had to measure just how bad it was to know So we stuck it on the pad and measured just how much of curve there was in that 16 ft board. 14 3/4' between the floor and the board at the biggest gap LOL. Could have made a huge bow out of the dam thing LOL. One board had 3/4' bark edge almost down the entire thing. We took down a wall in our house that was built long ago and I could not even see a single bit of bark edge and the new boards I cannot find any without bark edge.

[@allenwilliams6882]

​@@macmac1022Pretty obvious you were in a big box store.

[@macmac1022]

@@allenwilliams6882 I was on site and the wood was delivered from home depot. The next load we needed we went and picked up and sorted through them ourselves because it was so bad. You see, when we send a load of lumber to china and they see a bark edge or bad boards, they reject the entire load so what end up happening is we send out our good stuff to prevent that from happening and leave ourselves with the junk.

[@phillamoore157]

@@ronblack7870 Yeah…part of my issue here in Orlando, is the “lumber yards” won’t sell to the average DIY’er like me. They want you to have a commercial’s license and buy at least a pallet of lumber. But, with that aside, the part that really burns me is that, as far as the Big Box stores go, I purposely choice the high-end, I believe they called it “white premium-stud” lumber, and it made next to no difference. The bow was a bit better, but that crap twisted like a friggin rubber-band. There could be a lumber yard in my neck of the woods I just don’t know about. I VERY rarely do projects like this. But, should I take on that shed project this winter when the heat calms down, I’ll damn-sure look for a more professional yard.

[@jotacalvo]

I live in a very old part of the country (SW PA) and work on a lot of 100+ yr old homes. It is astounding how solid the lumber was from the turn of the 20th century. Not only because of the size, but even the density. The grain from the old wood is so tightly packed. Today’s lumber has huge gaps between the grain. I assume because newer lumber was farmed and synthetically grown, (growing as fast as possible I guess?). Just my uninformed opinion and observation.

[@popeye6459]

There might be bias here since you're only seeing homes that are strong enough to have even lasted that long.

[@OpinionatedNoOne]

Old lumber is crazy dense. Had to run 3/8 lag bolts into a beam in my old barn, bolts wouldn't go in even pre-drilling to 5/16. Ended up having to through-bolting.

[@jamiebiddix4302]

Old trees took longer to grow because of forest density. Now a timber forest that was planted is spaced and maintained to prevent competition growth. It's good and bad I guess.

[@psywiped]

Age of the tree affects how much it grows each year, its old growth vs new growth. We had a lot of older trees that were larger and used for building. Today most lumber is newer trees from farms that havent gotten into their old groth stage.

[@Tuisto]

the main difference is the species of pine being cultivated, vast majority of modern pine is varieties of Southern Yellow Pine, it grows fast, vs. 100 years ago the pine being harvested were hard Longleaf and Virginia pine

[@clem24u]

In Jr. high school shop class back in the mid 60's I remember us watching a lumber mill documentary about this subject and how those old rough boards are now nice and smooth. I've never forgotten it. Wow am I getting old. Do they still have shop class? Probably not.

[@mattelias721]

I'll risk an answer here, which is of course, not very much. It depends on the school district and how much money flows from taxes into the district. In addition to that, many schools discontinued shop due to liability issues (we've become a highly litigious society...). Last, with the past several decades focused on pushing kids to college, shop class was seen as something useless, so if stuff is sitting unused, it gets sold off and programs are discontinued. Now we have young educators without any kind of shop skills, so who's going to teach shop? We've morphed into a consumer-based society with nothing but Ikea to shop for. I'm a 55yo fat dude with teen boys. I'm going to ask if they have shop class option here. I took shop (enjoyed, learned, and even got a Master's in a STEM program much later) and our shop teacher did that class as an added-on class to what he 'actually' taught, kind of like the PE teachers also taught history or math, and also coached a team or two.

[@clem24u]

@@mattelias721 I figured the liability would be a big issue. Sad. I loved shop. 7th grade was wood. 8th grade metal.

[@universeisundernoobligatio3283]

A 100 years ago there still were old growth forests, we have cut them all down. Now we plantations that are meet to produce trees as fast as possible, we get what we plant.

[@phiksit]

I was just reading how the industrial revolution in the early 1800's UK (increased use of coal) and the concurrent deforestation of North America were the beginnings of climate change.

[@andrewdobbs7000]

So, we're planting crap? Because that's what's to be found at the big box stores.

[@kolbyking2315]

You can't reap what you don't sow.

[@kenneth9874]

That's no excuse for smaller dimensions.

[@kenneth9874]

​@@phiksityou're reading crap

[@theleva7]

Watching this from the place where advertised dimensions are actually consistent with actual size of lumber, is enlightening

[@samuelmellars7855]

Yeah, if I buy 55x75, it's close enough to actually being 55mm x 75mm!

[@jackfromthe60s]

Yep. A 90x45 stud is actually 90x45!

[@Pianotok]

I actually got annoyed the other day to get a couple of 45x145 boards that turned out to be closer to 45x147. Doesn't seem all that bad anymore 😂

[@Old52Guy]

You have squarely nailed my pet peeve! I have been woodworking for a very long time. I have patterns and plans going back to the 60s. Then the actual for a 2x4 was 1.75 x 3.75. Now all you can find is the 1.5 inch stuff. it's not dry, it's not straight, and they are like handling porcupines with all the slivers. How much time do all of us spend kneeling on the lumber center's floor trying to find the straightest and flattest lumber possible. 3 months ago i needed ten 2x4x8'. I spent 2 hours lifting piece after piece, sighting it to find the warps and rolling it on the on the floor checking for squareness and flatness. i went through just over 1/2 pallet of wet, heavy boards, many of them decorated with chattering plane blade marks, torn out and gouged grooves and some of the worst warping i've ever seen. Some of the warps looked like they were models for the new horror rollercoasters. I am not going to name the big box store where this happened but they have a lot of orange in their color scheme. it can be even worse when getting lumber at a yard. Unless you are friends with the pickers and pullers you just get whatever comes off the the top of the pile. Normally i get 10% overage. At the yard it ended up being nearly 20% overage to meet what I needed. Unless you own your own woodlot, you're screwed. What I am seeing now is the smallest, worst quality, and most expensive lumber in history. PS: don't get me started on livinbg in the western US and trying to find and afford hardwoods. Small amounts get imported over the Rockies and sold at prices 4-5 times higher than what you can get in the East. Sorry for the rant. Feel free to delete this.

[@branthonkanen8681]

Thanks for the rant info.

[@patrickday4206]

Imagine doing the same for them you want are Douglas fir it's 4x

[@joshuacmorgan]

I am new to woodworking. And man, I thought I was overreacting when I had my first visit to the lumber yard. It took me a 45mins to get 4 pieces of decent cherry I could work with. It didn’t help that I needed 8 inch wide boards.

[@passerbycmc]

have spent hours finding like 10 good ones in a store, then only to find its under so much internal tension that it just curled and cupped when i had to rip cut one of them

[@elained9591]

Back in the ‘80’s I worked for Sierra Pacific in molding dept. We ran some absolutely beautiful fir through the resaw all the way to finished product. The best went to the UK. We were told if one pitch pocket was seen that had t been repaired, they’d send the whole ship back. It happened once in two years I worked there. I often wonder if our best lumber is still going over seas while we get the crap. Big box stores don’t store the lumber correctly and I’ve seen it delivered to the stores uncovered, while it was raining. They store it outside, uncovered. What’s the sense in paying for KD lumber if it’s not being handled correctly once it leaves the kiln?

[@garyjarvis2730]

Even after all the planing and kiln drying we still get lumber that's not straight and true. Half the lumber in every bundle is simply not usable. Wasn't a problem when walls were lathed and plastered but with drywall it's a disaster. At the price they charge every piece should be straight.

[@theupson]

turns out that if you cut your boards thinner than a linguini noodle, itll warp just sitting there on the shelves

[@TheJohn8765]

Yep. Even as a hone-gamer that only does small projects, I have to go thru the entire bundle just to find a few boards that aren't warped and filled with knots. It's garbage. I can't imagine having to frame a house (or three) with the junk they sell nowadays. I did renos in the early 90's and again in the early 2000's and I don't remember it being anywhere this bad.

[@markpashia7067]

You might want to try a contractor supply if you do enough to justify it. Actual lumber yards buy better grade wood than what the Big Box Home Centers put on the shelves. And they usually do not allow you to pick through so everyone gets mostly good wood and no one gets stuck with all culls. When I was building houses and buying by the bundle from actual real lumber yards it was not such an issue.

[@nathanadrian7797]

If it is gonna twist or warp, kiln drying makes it worse, not better, and planning does not make it straight, just smooth.

[@benvincent24]

I believe part of the cause is crop trees versus old growth trees. Newer, tweaked to grow fast wood species are less dense so more prone to warping.

[@NighthawkDreamrunner]

Big Lumber? Not Big Wood? The opportunity was right there...

[@DwarSel]

I've been made a fool of by big wood before

[@moldyzucchinis3251]

Big Nubs cannot be trusted

[@Ted_James]

Well played, sir. Well played.

[@J.A.Smith2397]

He's been being a good boy(more PG) to get more ppl watching... You should watch his old stuff, I loved it specially the old timey workshop

[@wheressteve]

Big Wood is a myth.

[@robertmceuen3630]

From 2019 to 2021 I worked on the LA Rams stadium in Inglewood, CA. The parts to build the roof came from overseas and we're shipped in wooden "frames." Honest wood- 2"×4" and 4"×4" pieces. Believe me, I stocked up. Work benches, shelving etc. It's 2024 and I still have alot of wood.

[@darkdelta]

Good on ya!

[@dhm7815]

Some family members moved to Amish country. I heard hammers at dawn as we went out. The neighbors were building another farm building -- a man and his two sons. They were building out of 2x4s that were 2" by 4".

[@slartimus]

There was some fantastically hard-boiled noir narration here. Bravo.

[@zanderday4466]

glad I have a pal with a small saw mill - he always gives me dimensional not undersized - nice quality and priced the same as a big box store. Only downside is I have to plan and be patient wait my turn, but worth it!

[@phiksit]

And how do you dry it?

[@emarr3720]

My house is made with real 2x4 & it’s all redwood even the lattes!! I’ve never had to worry about termites. The exterior is stuccoed & the plywood looks like Baltic birch & it’s not rough hewn. It’s like the stuff you use for cabinets. Those were the days when things were made to last.

[@bixfrisbee2623]

Most Americans want "cheap." That's why America's favorite store is Walmart. Made to last, quality, solidity, serviceability no longer matter. The only thing that matters now is cheap. The only thing better than cheap is cheaper.

[@tabitha2706]

I'm just old enough to remember when a 2X4 was a 2X4. Then in high school woodshop and into my 20's, it became 1-3/4 X 3-3/4, then of course it went to the current 1-1/2 X 3-1/2. I've been waiting for them to lose another 1/4" for awhile now. Then several years ago I heard about a new wall stud sizing trend that was taking it closer to 3", but then it quietly went away. But I'm still expecting it

[@jugganaut33]

Most framing is done with 2x1 studs now anyway because timber tripled in price over Covid and priced homes out of the market.

[@DoktorHalloween]

Your wish, concern, is a reality. The lumber I have been buying for the past year is no longer 1-1/2x3-1/2, it is now 1-3/8x3-3/8. This stuff doesn't even allow me to match the blueprints when building. And, some of the plywood is no longer 4'x8' either. Just chaps me.

[@markpashia7067]

@@DoktorHalloween Wait until you see what they are doing to one by lumber for trim. No longer listing it by dimension, only calling it trim boards and a lot of it is joined from short lengths and primed to hide it. Half inch thick seems the standard for now. God forbid one of your saw cuts comes into one of those joinery spots though.

[@paulholmes672]

When they went to the 2x4 (3.5" inch wide) standard, there was a no-go where wall insulation was concerned, it was physically unable to contain enough insulation to battle 100 plus heat in the SouthWest US. So they went to 2 X 6's instead, AND of course charged premiums for the privilege. Then there is 24" stud spacing where if you happen to push a bed or cabinet against a wall, it cracks it...

[@TheGuruStud]

@@paulholmes672 That's why you use at good quality 5/8 sheet rock.

[@stevennelson9504]

I worked in a sawmill for years and I can tell you that the target thickness of the rough cut green 2x4's from the chip-n-saw is 1.65in x 3.65in. It is then kiln dried to 20% moisture content. Then planned to 1.5in x 3.5in standard size for retail sales.

[@mikem1436]

One thing you'll never hear at the big box stores ' I can't use this piece of wood; it's to straight'.

[@tylerm.9408]

Our family just rebuilt a garage/wood shop in northern New York and the main builder has his own mill and we used actual 2x4s, 2x6s, etc and it was an amazing experience. The building is so solid and hanging on the walls is so nice and solid

[@jakelilevjen9766]

I’m shocked, SHOCKED I tell you, that industry would do something underhanded in the name of profit! They have always been so trustworthy, and held our best interest to heart!

[@francismarion6400]

You can say the same about government.

[@jakelilevjen9766]

@@francismarion6400 Except I can’t. They don’t make a profit.

[@steve_put_this_here]

My previous house was made with "dimensional" lumber - all "rough cut" beams, joists, etc, with tongue and groove. The house was bomb-proof, and a bear to match dimensions to when it came time to put an addition on.

[@pknuttarlott4934]

I learned in school a 2x4 is the rough cut size than it gets planed a quarter inch on 4 sides bringing the size down to 1.5 and 3.5 inches. I don't know what current wood dimensions are, I learned this in the 1990's.

[@BillHannah]

Down with big lumber! 😂 Another reason for rounding the corners is it helps with the drywall if they aren't perfectly straight. The rounded corner puts less strain on the drywall sheet reducing the likelihood of cracking and bulges. Wasn't as much of a concern the past when they used laths behind the plaster to create a flat surface for the wall

[@davidmiller6010]

You missed a step. The 1st standardization that I'm aware of was 1-5/8 by 3-5/8. That changed to 1-1/2 by 3-1/2 around 1974. Other than that minor detail, your report was pretty much spot on!

[@aco319sig3]

The final standard was actually decided on in 1964, but implementation took a few years. My father was on the White House committee that made that decision.

[@theexpollutions6482]

@@aco319sig3so your dad was aco319sig2 ???? Wow! Dropping some wood science on us!!

[@elained9591]

@@aco319sig3interesting, I was born in ‘60 and remember using the 1-⅝ x 3-⅝” and then when we moved from Chula Vista up to Los Angeles, the same. About the time I was in Junior High it went to the ½”. I recall my Dad and Uncle both fussing about it. Dad went and bought lumber through a lumber yard to redo the renovations. The guy said it was due to kerf of the blade and they called bs on him. Both were happy they received true sized lumber. Didn’t need planed because no one would see it holding up the ceiling (12 x 12) and in the walls (2x4 to match the existing in the old part of the house)

[@eh42]

Triggered my PTSD. Flashback to college when a bunch of us MBAs were working a summer project and needed to build a ladder out of 2x4's. We dutifully, carefully even, measured and cut 2x4" slots in the stringers to hold the nice 2x4 steps. D'Oh!

[@Food-Fire-and-Featherboards]

I just bought #8 wood screws at a big box store, (where everything is orange....), and I swear the diameter of the shaft and the screw head is smaller now. Holding these new screws up against older #8 screws confirms this. They're not as small as a #6 screw, but they are for sure somewhere inbetween #8 & #6....

[@PhongNguyen-iz3sj]

You had me! For 24 hours I thought you were serious. Then I read some of the people comments .. funny! Great video! At least for me, a very subtle gag. Good one. Love your videos.

[@oafkad]

Your dry humor is too good. It makes it impossible to know when you are serious or not lol.

[@Akdale777]

Exactly

[@wahiwoodworks3324]

The only woodworking satirist channel on you tube.

[@eekee6034]

I'm a little bit thankful for this. :) Between the comments of frustrated woodworkers now and the complaints I recall from older carpenters as much as 35 years ago when wood was starting to go downhill, I think this could have been _actually depressing!_ Making it so you can't tell when he's being serious is, in this case, probably for the best.

[@brucea550]

@@eekee6034 I suspect it’s a lot of silliness to make a point and create content, which is how youtubers earn a living. Does anyone who uses lumber seriously think a 2x4 is actually those dimensions? I mean, we buy 3/4 ton trucks knowing they don’t weigh 1500 lbs, nor is that the limit to what load they can carry. But we accept that meaningless designation and understand what we bought. Does it really matter to anyone that a 2x4 is smaller? It’s framing lumber. Engineers approve building plans so wherever that lumber is used, it’s adequate. And if a guy simply must have a true dimension 2x4, there is probably a small local mill within 25 miles that will cut them for you. To me the far bigger complaint about modern lumber is quality, not that it’s 25% smaller. And we now compensate by framing 16 on center instead of 24 or 28 or whatever was kinda close, as seen in most old buildings.

[@eekee6034]

@@brucea550 Yep, he's being funny for views. It wouldn't have been funny if he'd focused on the quality. He could have made the size discussion unfunny too, but with all the talk about "big lumber" and conspiracies, he clearly meant it to be funny. In all seriousness though, figures do matter for some purposes. If a truck _rated_ for 3/4 tons can't carry that much, you've got a problem. And it adds to the complexity of life to have so many things named for qualities they don't actually have.

[@dwwoodbuilds]

Great video! Really enjoyed it and some much needed laughs! Thanks James!

[@onmyworkbench7000]

The biggest crime is where the lumber mill figured out how to take the sawdust and wood chips and make crap like particle board and OSB and sell it to us at over inflated prices!!! The AstraHP Coated* Bits look like a material called "Diamond like coating" that I sputtered on parts in the mid 1990's. It was super hard and wear resistant. The house that I grew up in was built in the late 1940"s and it had REAL 2x4's in it. My dad and I were doing some remodeling in it and he showed the the difference and that was in the early 1970"s

[@eekee6034]

MDF - medium-density fibreboard -- was new when I was a teenager. We made a desk and some shelves out of thick heavy MDF, and they sagged!

[@michaellines2063]

I'm currently framing a basement and I picked up an entire "bunk" of 2x4 from the local lumber yard with the best google reviews. It's amazing! Everyone who sees the framing comments on how straight the studs are. Crown up? It's actually hard to see any crown. The big box store sells wet wood with saw marks that measures 3.4" wide and badly warped.

[@donaldross1077]

As a young kid {retired 68} I remember moving onto a farm in Northeast Oklahoma and it had a chicken house on it. This was 200 feet long and 60 feet wide and was made from rough sawn red oak lumber. That is right the whole building was made from red oak lumber. We estimated it was built in the 40's or 50's. You are right they were real 2 inch by 4 inch framing. The only way you could drive a nail in it was to pre-drill or coat the nail with grease. It was super hard lumber. Dad wanted to give me some of this oak for my projects, but it was too hard and dulled every blade I had. He pulled the building down and it burnt for 3 weeks. What can I say {You hit the nail on the head} all the lumber is mainly junk, if it is not warped and twisted, it will be.

[@danamyrocket]

As a boy scout in the '70's I used to camp at a 5000 acre ranch in Southeast Kansas. Before europeans came, I was told, most of the area was burned by the Quivera, Wichita, and Kansa tribes. This kept the trees out, and prairie grass growing, and the buffalo roaming. Settlers broke sod and farmed. The scout ranch just let nature take over. The land filled up with Walnut, Red and Blackjack Oaks, Cedar, Osage Orange (Hedge) and a range of other species. The hedge was insanely hard. You'd see sparks come off it when cut with chainsaw in shade. I was told that most of the Great Plains would have reverted to forrest if allowed. I visited a site in west PA where there is evidence of human occupation as far back as 24,000 years ago. It's likely that Forrests covered the continent from as far west as Wichita to the Atlantic Ocean. that would have been awesome to see.

[@matopezuta2050]

Just bought some 2x2 deck spindles at Menards to replace some old/damaged. Didn't think much about it until I got them home and laid them next to the 25 year old ones they were replacing. They have shank down to 1 25"x1.25"!

[@rashkavar]

Edit: read replies to this before you try this - it seems it's not a good idea unless the wood is already properly dried all the way through! One tip I've heard mentioned in the past about getting 2x4s that aren't wet and twisty...though it will cost you more: get 2x12s, chop them in 3. Since you're working with a less popular material, you're likely to have something that's in the store for a bit and thus already has had time to dry in a relatively climate-controlled environment. Thus you can grab the pieces that haven't twisted horribly so far, and you're closer to being sure you'll have a viable piece of wood than you would have been. Of course, this is, at least at my local big box store, 10 times the money for 3 times the wood...so you're pobably spending more money even if the twisty 2x4s are completely unsalvageable.

[@coatknight]

I've tried that but the boards warped badly after cutting, and this was even after I set it in the room for months to dry, weighted down, before I cut it.

[@markpashia7067]

@@coatknight Yes sir. The middle is wetter than the outside so when you rip them they all have different moisture. Unless you can start over and kiln dry and plane them again it is a losing battle. Tried that trick in the seventies with cutting 2x4 into 2x2s and everyone pulled into a long bow curve with that one wet side.

[@PeopleAlreadyDidThis]

I also tried ripping 2 x 12s. I used the rift and quarter-sawn pieces and threw away the pith. Stickered them and dried them for months. It was a disaster. All of them bowed and crowned. Several crowned 1-1/2” in 6 feet. Half of the lumber ended up as planer chips and I didn’t quite get 1-1/16” thickness in the end. Never again! I could have glued up 2 x 4s for a better result. One 2 x 12 split lengthwise before I could rip it. Just fell apart into two boards. I hope those miserable boards aren’t being used for joists.

[@rashkavar]

@@PeopleAlreadyDidThis Yikes!

[@patchesofgreen3832]

I appreciate your commitment to the gag. Chalk up another great video. Keep up the good work

[@57WillysCJ]

The dryers must be hotter now than in the 60s because the wood is smaller today than in the 70s. You notice a lot of places don't say 2x4, just wall studs.

[@joshuaguenin9507]

Studs are 93 inches, 3 inches short of 8 foot for a reason

[@markpashia7067]

@@bywonline Actually that 92 and five eighths was when a two by was one and five eighths thick. With one bottom plate and two top plates it totaled a full 97 inch wall. That allowed for half inch drywall ceiling with a half inch at the bottom for uneven floors. Baseboard would cover that crack at the bottom. They did not change immediately after the cut to one and a half inch thick because it still worked most of the time, but as time went on they did shift to the 93 due to complaints and slowing sales.

[@Timber2Toothpicks]

Hi Jim… I really enjoyed your review in the Harvey Tool booth at the show. The new Big Eye is off the charts. I bought the Ambassador C-14. For what I do it is awsome. If they make that Big Eye for the Ambassador I own one the second day they are available. I already have the dough for the All Wheel Drive Spider. So Sweet! Your review and explanation of the 2 X 4 is outstanding. It’s just like when I was in college only he had a much more colorful vocabulary. Well Done.

[@jamesbrotherton5487]

Oh no, not the audible sigh! That's worse that the comfy chair!

[@russdavis1960]

😂

[@SteepedinLightPhotography]

Sadly, we expected that 😉…

[@paulmaxwell8851]

I wonder how many people understood your Monty Python reference?

[@sidespin9968]

The humor is back ! ! ! Loved the video.

[@kennethwallace5168]

Also, from an engineering stand point...they are still thicker and wider than they need to be. Of course they did it for money. You should have always known that.

[@Tbick321]

That was so engaging and interesting. Thank you

[@viscache1]

I like my 2x12’s like a child in a Dentist’s office loves lollipops. But what I’m getting from Hope Demot is a 1-1/2”x10-1/2”!!!! AAAAAAAaaargh! To work on my TOC Craftsman farm house I called Wood Miser and found out where all the people who bought the big wonderful fully automated hydraulic wood mills live and started on my adventure to find men of valor and moral turpitude who would cut actual to measure lumber that I can use to remodel my house from the basement up…and it costs LESS!

[@nevetslleksah]

A 2x12 is 11-1/4” wide, is it not? A 2x10 is 9-1/4”, a 2x8 is 7-1/4”. And just for kicks a 2x6 is 5-1/2” wide.

[@ThatGuy513]

Be aware you cannot legally use non-graded lumber in a structural application. It's fine to hold up drywall on a partition wall, or use as a decorative wallcover, but you should not be using 2x12s from a home lumber mill to frame your floors, load bearing walls, or roof structure.

[@robertwazniak9495]

⁠@@nevetslleksahin theory… I’ve built decks where 2x12’s varied by 7/8” and the largest was 11”. I even double checked the ends and they were tagged 2x12. First thing that I do is sort them by size so the deck isn’t wavy and I still need to plane down certain areas to make it look decent.

[@chrisvanderwielen1530]

Yeah, I noticed this when I converted an under-the-stairs closet into a kitchen pantry. The framing studs I had were about 1/4" thinner than those in the wall already. And my house was built in 1995! By 2015, they'll be selling us 1x's and calling it a 2x...

[@benoithudson7235]

The lumberyard where I get good quality stuff will actually sell me a 2x4, but they’ll always ask me if I actually want a 1.5x3.5”.

[@jon4715]

Really? That sounds like the way to do it.

[@stephenmeche8418]

I recently priced some Aromatic Cedar 4/4 Lumber from woodworkers source and and they are actually 13/16”, I bought a sheet of 3/4” birch plywood this weekend from Home Depot and and it was 11/16” at its thickness.

[@tjpprojects7192]

I've always said that lumber sellers should be sued for fraud. They ADVERTISE the product as 2 inches by 4 inches, etc... but they're NOT 2 inches by 4 inches, they're 1.5 by 3.5 inches or smaller. This is blatant fraud and false advertisement. Subway can't advertise 6 inch subs as 12 inches, so why should lumber sellers be given a legal way to commit crime?

[@brucea550]

They don’t advertise the lumber as 2”x4” anywhere I’ve ever seen. And what about trucks being called 1/2 ton or 3/4 ton? What does that mean?

[@colmhain]

You used to get dried lumber. Not necessarily furniture grade dry, but you weren't gonna lose 1/16" of width. I remember in the mid to late '80s you could even get dry treated lumber (with a lifetime guarantee).

[@neilpountney9414]

Imagine paying your taxes and telling the IRS that a $1000 dollars was now $750

[@LohPro]

i wouldn't know, i've never paid into the IRS. the trick is to never start. 26 CFR § 601.602 "The tax system is based on voluntary compliance..."

[@TheEvilAdministrator]

@@LohPro You might want to read 26 USC § 7203 ... you might find it a bit of a nasty surprise.

[@blairhoughton7918]

Can't get blood out of a 2x4.

[@TheSchane]

love your education and knowledge as equally as your sense of humor. Cheers!

[@cynicallyskeptic4295]

This may be my favorite Stumpy Nubs video of all time! I will join you in the audible sigh when I go to the lumberyard and get my lumber!

[@stephenbeck5993]

I agree. I might even shake my head and roll my eyes.

[@enterprise0987]

My father took down an old cottage years ago built in the 60s. It was true 2 x 4. It was smooth on each side. Beautiful wood.

[@sparkyheberling6115]

I found undersized lumber at Home Depot. It wasn’t labeled 2×4; it was stacked, unlabeled, 𝘯𝘦𝘹𝘵 to the full-size lumber. You weren’t supposed to notice that the two were different.

[@ThatGuy513]

It's a 2x3. I used a couple when I was framing a wall next to a chimney that was uneven. The gap in the back allowed the masonry to vary in and out without hitting the stud. It's marked what they are- the sign was probably knocked off as they are removable.

[@sparkyheberling6115]

@@ThatGuy513 Both dimensions were undersized. I pointed it out to one of the employees, who measured it himself and had no explanation. It wasn’t labeled at all.

[@eekee6034]

I find there's a lot I'm not supposed to notice in supermarkets these days. :/

[@woodworking4459]

I did look the router website and the price is quite expensive. I really like your videos and tools. I already bought many tools following your recommendation. Thank you 😊

[@johnford7847]

"An audible sigh..." That's tellin'em, Jim! LOL! Great video.

[@paulmaxwell8851]

I'm just finishing a new workshop, built with locally cut rough-sawn Douglas fir and spruce. It's all full-dimension lumber, so very solid. But......the consistency of the dimensions really varies according to the guy on the sawmill that day. Most of the two-by's were two inches, no more and no less. But the other operator didn't particularly care, so the two by fours varied from 1 5/8 thick to as much as 2 1/4 inches. Maddening!

[@StefanoBorini]

Americans really don't get this "unit of measure" thing.

[@classygentlemangaming8400]

most unoriginal played out joke

[@shakdidagalimal]

I got lucky building a big wooden shed a few years ago. Out to the big lot store everyone knows it's name, and there were several pallets of GOOD 2x4x8s. They haD A SLIGHTLY DARKER reddish tint to them, and I believe the ends were stamped Redbud. It was red something. Anyway it was my first purchase of any 2x4s, they had several stacks of them you know the 2x4x8 size stacks. So straight, so strong, a bit heavier, they were so great. I went there again a couple times then FEW YEARS LATER time to build another shed. The GOOD ONES were way up in some huge stack 20 feet up, and only one bundle of those left. The rest was all junk and has been ever since.

[@aco319sig3]

My adopted father, Robert E. Stermitz, was part of the white house commission that set the modern lumber dimensions back in 1964. The reasoning behind the change was that there was a negligible difference in structural strength between a full 2x4 and the reduced 1-1/2 x 3-1/2. The difference in milling thickness on the boards would also increase the yield per tree by up to 30%, as more of the tree would be usable, thus "conserving" more trees. The fact that it would also increase the lumber company's profit margins by approximately the same ratio was never mentioned publicly.

[@captainwho1]

Before they became 1-1/2 x 3-1/2 they were 1-5/8 x 3-5/8. I know because my father had some of those in our workshop basement in 1969 when I first became introduced to woodworking by him.

[@ruftime]

"The fact that it would also increase the lumber company's profit margins by approximately the same ratio was never mentioned publicly." was the Primary reason to come up with those other excuses! I'd love to know what your adopted father's qualifications were......let's start there😎

[@aco319sig3]

@@captainwho1 Yeah, they made the change gradually over time to keep the public from screaming in outrage over the sudden change, but the standard was decided on back in 1964.

[@captainwho1]

@@aco319sig3 But before 1964 the previously decided on standard was 1-5/8 x 3-5/8. Not 2 x 4. I believe the first nationally standardized lumber sizes were instituted July 1, 1924. See History of Yard Lumber Size Standards by the Forest Products Laboratory of the U. S. Department of Agriculture. Be prepared for how chaotic of a journey it was.

[@aco319sig3]

@@ruftime He was one of the Senior Vice Presidents of Wicks Lumber Company when I was 5 years old (1980), this was also right around the time he passed away from a heart attack. He was the Senior VP of another major lumber company before that, but I was never told which one. Had been in the lumber business since he got back from the Korean War.

[@martincaruana6632]

Loved the humor and the history lesson. Truly one of my favorite channels.

[@espressomatic]

I *LOVE* working on old homes and having to put new lumber into old walls.

[@FLPhotoCatcher]

My sarcasm detector is beeping. But some people do really like restoring old homes. So now I'm confused.

[@olddawgdreaming5715]

Thanks for sharing James, we appreciate your thoughts. Please don't encourage those who like their MEGA-PHONE to find a street corner to disrupt. We have tooo much of that going on right now. Stay safe and keep up the good work. Fred.

[@StumpyNubs]

This was not a serious video.

[@francisR46]

An amusing take on the subject. Today's 2x4's work fine for their intended purposes. And I am happy to call them 2x4's and not 1.5x3.5's. The wood that older homes were built with isn't available any longer. There are only so many trees out there and they only grow back so fast. And people want their mcmansions to brag about. With rooms and space they don't need and don't use. With their living rooms no one lives in and their dining rooms no one eats in.

[@thePronto]

And 3 car garages that they never park in because the garages are full of all the junk they bought and never use. Including power tools...

[@markchisholm2657]

In the UK you buy sawn or PSE - planed all round. If you want 2x4 then you buy sawn which, will be dry and reasonably straight. If you want PSE then from a big DIY store it will be sized as per finish - and priced accordingly. If you go to a wood supplier or builders merchant then they will price per sawn size but will plane down to smooth finish. They will let you know the sawn and planed size before hand though.

[@canoetipper019]

Years ago I helped a friend of mine build a barn. He bought his lumber from a small local mill. All the lumber was rough sawn and a 2 x twice could vary by as much as 1/2". Made it fun work. Also he had found an old barn (over 100 years old) to tear down for the sheathing. Some of those boards were over two feet wide and just as solid as the day they were first used.

[@kevchard5214]

I am sure the audible sigh will force the lumber barons to change their devious ways. LOL

[@stevebosun7410]

Thank you James, history at it's finest as usual.

[@bobrad20]

The studs in my old house, built in 1835, were 2.0" x 4.0" true size. In the 1950s, they were now 1-13/16" x 3-13/16". This was explained as 'shrinkage'. Now Home Depot, Lowe's, and my local lumber yard have three different sizes of 2 x4s ranging from 1-3/4 to 1-1/2' You go figure.

[@MAKEITSF]

This video hits in the right place. Well done.

[@RylanceStreet]

When I first started woodworking I was told 2" timber was cut from the log at 2" centres, so you lost the sawblade width from the wood before any planing losses. I am currently working on an old house here in the UK. The internal partition walls installed in the 1950s are built with rough sawn studs that actually are 2" x 3". And in the UK our timber shrank a bit with metrication when 4" (101.6mm) nominal got replaced by 100mm nominal size.

[@firecloud77]

Elaine : It shrinks? Jerry : Like a frightened turtle! Elaine : Why does it shrink? George Costanza : It just does.

[@geobrower3069]

We have a bunch of 1940 and 1950's cottages at the resort I work at, we've renovated them all, the 2x lumber is all rough sawn and short a 1/4" (1/8 per side) example - 2x4's are 1 3/4 x 3 3/4"; 2x8's are 1 3/4 x 7 3/4".

[@azcamperjohn1079]

i have 2x4's that are 1 7/8x3 7/8 from some old project that I took apart that I built in the 1960's. it's amazing when you put it up against todays 2x4

[@RidgidRon]

Thak you for the information!!

[@JusBidniss]

Regarding the last point about selling us wet wood that dries and bends 'like an arthritic banana' (a fruit I am glad to have never encountered, btw!), I have had projects where I needed the '2-by' material to stay straight, even though not supported by the connecting parts of the project, where warping as it dried would have been a disaster. In those cases, I have cut and laminated plywood to make the '2-by' stock. It's expensive, time-consuming, causes wear-and-tear on my tools to do the extra milling, but the result did not warp with the more stable plywood. I have since found that the main reason for all the warping as it dries is not just that they sold it to us wetter than a group of housewives at a Chippendales show, but because they cut the '2-by' stock from smaller trees, or at the edges of larger trees, pieces that were too small to have been made into larger-dimension lumber. So when I need a straight 2x4 now, wet, kiln-dried, whatever, I always purchase at least a 2x8 or larger and rip it down. The resulting board is a lot more stable. Not as stable as laminated plywood, but pretty good.

[@datguy8371]

This had me chuckling. Nice vid. And by the way, they really are reducing some sizes of trim. I put standard 3-1/2" baseboard molding in my house a few years back. With a flooring update, I had to pull all that off, and only one 6' piece couldn't be re-used. So I went back to get more of the same stuff. Except now it's "standard 3-1/4" and doesn't match up to the other baseboard. Had to glue another board to the bottom and recut it to match it up.

[@Theravadinbuto]

The other factor to consider is kerf. I mill my own lumber, and milling 8/4, once dried and planed, does give me a board thickness around 1 5/8. However, I get air dried, quarter sawn Douglas fir at those dimensions, which is vastly stronger and straighter than your lumber yard 2 by 4.

[@blindluck5734]

I am 80 years old and I remember when I was a kid 2 x 4 or 1 5/8 x 3 and five eights. After a little searching online I found that in 1919 that size was approved by some lumber association. 7:15

[@carpo719]

Can you imagine what a nightmare it would be if they went back to 2 in by 4 in? All of the different brackets and fittings and tools we would have to change?😂 Whenever i remodel an old house i save those 2x4s. Things are like fine wood now compared to todays crap

[@stickman-1]

I have a lot of info on this. I used to work at a lumber company. We actually sold "2 x 4 rough cut" and "2x4 sanded" lumber at the same time. The customer had to specify which they wanted. I also had a house built with original 2x4's. (1929) They were all "rough cut." They were a nightmare to work with. You had to use gloves to handle them, they would fill your hands with splinters. But you are right on the "Drying" scam. At least 30% of the lumber is warped. Drives me nuts.

[@jimrosson6702]

Great information thanks for sharing

[@mikeamboy7292]

Good lesson in history. One of the great drivers in modern lumber is fire code. Lumber has to be smooth with rounded edges.

[@davidclark2133]

I live in the South where you can easily find local mills and get what you paid for. You will have to stack it and let it dry but the cost and quality difference is massive.

[@edgararcega3046]

I grew up in a 1920's house. It had these larger 2x4 pieces. Not only that it also had a bunch of horizontal pieces of wood covering the walls from top to bottom. They were like 2 inch by 1/4 inch thick. Then on top of those pieces of wood it had some sort of rock material imbued with wire material. It might have been stucco. Then on top of that was the half inch sheet rock. Keep in mind that this is just what the inside wall was made of. The outside wall was a whole other animal. The house was built like a tank compared to my modern day house. You couldn't a Punch a hole through the walls in the 1920's house compared to the modern one I am in. Sometimes when I put my hand against a wall to lean on it a little I can feel the wall flexing in.

[@BobHerres]

as always Entertaining & Informative, thank you so much..

[@bixfrisbee2623]

A high percentage of existing houses in San Francisco are over 100 years old. When executing an addition or major remodel, some builders use custom milled lumber; 2x4's that actually measure 2" x 4" etc. because it's easier than using off the shelf "modern" lumber where too much time is spent furring out so in the long run, the expensive custom milled wood saves money overall on the job.

[@epjetta]

I am doing a bathroom remodel in my house built in 1969. The studs in my house are 1/8 bigger than the typical 3.5x1.5

[@Cecil_X]

Around here I can get a 2X4 actual from the Amish. It is my understanding that I cannot build with it, because it is not grade stamped. It will be thicker, straighter and from old growth, but I cannot build with it.

[@leonitasmaximus4004]

I noticed that even the thickness of baseboards are getting thinner. Everything is getting smaller and the prices are going up. Makes sense.

[@joeldcanfield_spinhead]

The writing and dry delivery are solid gold. Which costs only slightly more than that 2x4 you're waving around there.

[@poolcrusher90]

I have obtained some old growth construction lumber that was used to construct a local building in the mid 1800's. The 2x4's are closer to 1 5/8 x 3 5/8, but they are still old, dry and straight