SU&SD Present: Board Gaming's Golden Age (2017 update!)

[@Nobody2989]

I'm down for more talks about the history and design of board games. Reviews are awesome and funny, but I like to learn while I binge watch youtube videos at 3 in the morning.

[@BacchusGames]

Quintin, would you mind doing this talk without being rushed, as a video for us? I wish I could listen to the full talk without all the time restraints.

[@ScarriorIII]

He has a vid up of him doing it in 2012, 45 minutes worth.

[@BacchusGames]

yeah I know but I kinda want the updated version without the con noises and such. just a preference.

[@Quinns_Quest]

I'm planning on doing something even better when I have the time. Watch this space!

[@BacchusGames]

Quintin Smith dammit man, you got me hyped now

[@MCBunkerwelt]

As a German I have just one thing to point out: You are right, that in the 80s and 90s video games were highly censored in Germany, especially with violence. By now, that's basically no longer the case. Newer games are mostly censored for Nazi symbols because they are still forbidden in Germany, but violence is less of a problem. There is some minor violence censoring going on every now and then, but things have become way more lenient.

[@MCBunkerwelt]

Righto. It's more about the intention and less about the violence itself. To add an example: The latest "Mortal Kombat X" was released completely unscensored and the reasoning was, that the violence is to ridiculous to be a bad influence for children. "Sleeping Dogs" on the other hand, was heavily censored of basically all the "environment kills", because they were realistic and featured human enemies. As an adult age gamer, it's sometimes rather hard to understand the reasoning of the people deciding this, which is all done under the banner of protecting children. The silly thing is, that even the things that are "adult rated" still have to be censored most of the time.

[@mikesheehan]

Dude must have rolled some crazy charisma modifier; such a pleasure to watch.

[@WesMontrose]

You guys should look into doing this as a TED Talk.

[@ThomasGiles]

I think you get invited by "The TED" to do a talk; there's no way of requesting an audience with "The TED." (As I understand it.)

[@ThomasGiles]

Would be awesome, though...

[@C71-o8b]

WesMontrose Tedx could work

[@pgaboury]

Thumbs up for calling it "a problem that does not exist".

[@RynoKenny]

This is some fantastic bits of history I wish I knew years ago when this was first posted!

[@MasterdoMagic]

It's too bad that you had to cram that talk in only 15 minutes.. I really enjoyed watching the older talk you uploaded, I hope you get a chance to do a version of this talk soon in a less time critical context.

[@vfontaine07]

I love boardgames, have not bought a single video game for years but have been backing lots of boardgame kickstarters.

[@BeeCeeJay]

I very much appreciate the point made re: Legacy games at the end of the video. It seems to me that the outrage about "disposable" board games is completely manufactured by people that have decided the idea offends them without actually enacting it first to see if their concerns are based in reality. Of course, in 2017 we shouldn't be surprised at all by manufactured outrage, but that's a different topic for a different day, I suppose. Anyway, good job Quinns! I look forward to seeing more of these talks in the days to come!

[@davedogge2280]

If you have a colour printer, some Avery sticky back printer paper and a guillotine paper cutter there is no reason why these game have to be disposable with the PDF's for tokens available online (legally).

[@Beldarak]

For me, I guess my aversion towards those games comes from the fact we often make huge rule mistakes in our first plays of a new game. I'm also a huge fan of videogames on PC so I find it weird to buy a game I will not be able to play in 10 years when I feel like going back to it for nostalgia sake.

[@ErikvO]

A nice thing about Pandemic Legacy that at the start it's basically the fully functional base Pandemic game. You can just play a couple of practice games without the event deck and without using any stickers to figure things out.

[@deanlowdon8381]

I don't really understand the outrage at legacy games either. No one is forcing people to buy these games and you can just stick with the normal Pandemic and play it as many times as you want should you prefer. I'm about half way through Pandemic Legacy at the moment and I've really enjoyed it as it offers a different experience to normal board games.

[@kylekafka6636]

So I think the concept of disposable board games does have its merits, mainly in the storytelling aspect. With that being said, I wouldn't want it to take over the board game scene. I guess it really depends on how much extra profit is gained by the publishers by having limited play time on a board game. If they're getting multiple purchases from a lot of their player-base there is a big incentive for publishers to convert as many games as they can to be disposable.

[@TheMinkette]

Is there a way to hear your 45 min version?

[@deanlowdon8381]

Kind of ironic how computers and the internet actually improved sales of board games.

[@sortius_]

You're right. As a value proposition, the 'legacy' genre isn't bad. It's a deeply emotional reaction to question a single playthrough (is that the right word even?) game. Most of the games I don't trade/sell are games that are generally cheap, fast, games. Certainly not epics, they get played once a year if I'm lucky, or sold/swapped quite quickly. If anything, 'legacy' games inspire you to play more.

[@infernoblayze]

I'd love more talks like this. The rush made it come off a little nervous at first but you recovered well. Very interesting though, looking forward to more.

[@aureliusnoble]

Have you seen that the Yogscast have started doing tabletop/board gaming? It really is coming into the mainstream :)

[@danddjacko]

I would love to see this presentation redone for the Internet community, for use in introducing people via social media. There aren't that many videos that explain what modern board games are in general and the fact that we have moved on from the classics

[@AntonyAney]

Watched it two times. Nicely done!

[@Marscow]

"With the internet, you don't need to be a fascist. You can just play Twilight Imperium." ~Quinns Never before has a message resonated so perfectly with the world. :D

[@yunsuk21]

So wouldn't this be the 2017 update? Your Flamme Rouge Review was in 2017 and it was in your slide.

[@woehrle17]

Aw man, I wish we could have seen the 45 minute version. Still a great talk, thanks Quintin.

[@woehrle17]

Oh your "posting three more over the next week", never mind :)

[@connorviste6835]

18:05 *hears guy complain about limited shelf life* *grabs popcorn*

[@TempuraFriedJoystick]

Connor Viste It almost sounded like Brendan, which I think would've been hilarious.

[@thomassanderson7927]

When we desided to play Pandemic Legacy four if us put £12 in to cover the cost. We played 17 games so at les than £1 a play what is there to complain about

[@Happilyperfect]

You guys should come out to the world boardgaming championships in the US this summer, would be great to meet you there!

[@BoardGameSanctuary]

Great talk Quintin. Thumbs Up. Very informative. :D

[@ceetee2001]

It would be really awesome to see the whole speech without the time restriction!

[@karlkhansen]

I literally just finished watching the 45min version lol

[@emeraldnext]

Enjoyed the pacing a lot more but didn't get me as hype as the previous talk on the Golden Age I show to people that really embellishes their awesomeness in ways understandable to a non-board gaming audience.

[@pirotehs]

WE WANT FULL UPDATED 45 MINUTE PRESENTATION!!!!! p.s. was that Matt who asked last question? Sounded like Matt. No?

[@BrokenTwistFixed]

Quinns, you have a fair point about the shelf-life of legacy games, but I still think the legacy format suffers from some issues which could be greatly improved upon, one of which is the inability to play outside the specific group you started with. For example, say one person from the group can't attend a game-night but you have another person joining in. You can't bust out your legacy game because the new person will feel like he dropped in the middle of a season in a tv series, and the missing person will feel like he missed an episode. Or even worse, maybe you want to start another game with a new group. For this you'll have to buy another copy or convince someone else to do it. Even if you get it again, you have to start all over again and, if you plan on having multiple playthroughs in the same time-frame, you're likely gonna get the stories you created around your characters mixed up over time and it will play and read less like a story. And if someone has to drop out of the group for a longer period, you're in a bit of a pickle with that campaign, as it could screw it up completely. Other than that, I'm not sure limited shelf-life should necessarily be encouraged, especially outside of the legacy format. Just take Time Stories for example, I think it's fair to say it's a pretty terrible bang for your buck.

[@scotte4765]

*some issues which could be greatly improved upon, one of which is the inability to play outside the specific group you started with.* Are you sure that's actually the case though? I have not yet played any legacy games myself yet, but from what I've read and seen (after looking up that very question) both Pandemic Legacy and Gloomhaven (two of the most popular legacy games at the moment) are specifically designed to allow players to drop in and out of the "campaign" as it progresses. Granted that this isn't perfectly optimal and new players will have missed previous sessions' dramatic moments, but I would scarcely call it an _inability_ to play outside the group you started with. And from the perspective of creating a shared story over time, new characters entering the narrative partway through seems perfectly normal, both for those characters bringing in new twists and relationships and for them having to get up to speed on previous events.

[@khandarwilliam5439]

Rare footage of Quintin the Scholar

[@KabukiKid]

I find it interesting that we are starting to call our current time, "The Golden Age" of board gaming. I always thought of labeling things in ages with Golden, Silver, Bronze, etc... as being a timeline, like with comic books. The Golden Age of comics started in 1938 with the first Superman comic in Action Comics #1. We then eventually moved to the Silver Age of comics in the 50s until the 70s, then the Bronze age from the early 70s until the mid 80s. Finally, we land in the Modern Age of comics, which is from the mid 80s until present day. By this same timeline logic, wouldn't we probably currently be in the "Modern Age of Board Games" and the Golden Age was back when Monopoly came out? Just a thought.

[@ChrisM-xx6cf]

The "golden age" metaphor is supposed to define a period of accomplishing great tasks in a field. The later silver and bronze ages, in most cases, would refer to a declining trend of that field. The golden age is supposed to be the epitome of that particular field and typically one can't be living in the golden age, as it is a tag that is applied retroactively once people can say, "Look how great things were back then. That was truly the golden age of x." For board games, though, you could say we started in the "iron age" with stuff like Monopoly and games just keep getting better and better overall. I don't think there are many people thinking back to Monopoly, Clue, or Sorry and going, "Those were the best days of board games." So we're doing things more in reverse in this instance.

[@KabukiKid]

Yeah, if we go by sales and prosperity, the 1990s were HUGE for comic books, so that was like a second golden age. heh

[@ignaticas9634]

I would love to speak publicly as good as you :c

[@FREEDOMRIK73]

Thank you

[@apostateant]

Brilliant, Quinns!

[@jiiniasmith7880]

Would it be possible to see the other talk too?

[@shutupandsitdown]

Keep an eye out ;)

[@DerekHohls]

@@shutupandsitdown Uploaded yet?

[@MyStranger10]

where was that presentation held?

[@shutupandsitdown]

At the V&A Museum of Childhood in London.

[@CharlieCleveland]

Oh man I was just there....THREE WEEKS ago! Thanks for the great talk, Quintin. Would love to see the full version.

[@juancho420]

lol wood feels good...aaaaaaah. Moving on.

[@yaylittlegemma]

Bohnanza - the game where you say the word "bean" so many times the word "bean" loses all meaning...

[@ValhallasChosen]

What I learned - Quinns hates "Sherlock"

[@ChrisDerBlonde]

But why!?

[@stuartshannon8561]

Best point: Compare it to going tot he movies.

[@analogbunny]

In so many instances, you make reference to misogyny in board games, but because the topic is always something else you tend to gloss over it. Would you be willing to put together a talk on that?

[@thegitgudgrrl]

Its a shame that more people did not play Pandemic. Seems we are all losing.

[@Falkdr]

good talk but it's a little frustrating hearing how (not only) SU&SD keeps missing a core argument behind the "shelf time" argument of legacy games. It has nothing to do with costbenefit. It's not all about the money (maybe it is when you think of the waste of material). A legacy game might be a pizza, consume and buy a new one, that's ok. But that's not true for most of the board games. Those ones are fine pieces of craftmansship (also in design) that endure. Maybe we want to show them to our kids some day. Maybe we want to invide NEW players to our table. A sticker plastered and torn game board covered in scribbles in the midst of a campaign wouldn't look that appealing to me, then. We also could design a wristwatch that shows the time for one day, but you can eat it afterwards. I could fuel our stove with my father's wooden chess board, too. It would have a benefit in a weird sense, I guess. But that's simply not what some players WANT of a board game. So, for those players, a "legacy game" has no value at all and it would be nice if some designers would consider accepting this.

[@C71-o8b]

I was not the first

[@C71-o8b]

I liked my own comment

[@Izathel1]

The part that made my ears bleed was calling Agricola A) a fantastic game and B) a game with story. I'm not sure dubious incestous child-pregnancies or shocking inability to eat your pets is really all that thematic.

[@GergelyGati]

I'm a fan, but this talk in this form was a bit incoherent.

[@saschaklein7423]

The golden Age of Boardgames ?? For me it's just the age of good looking games with miniatures , bad rules, bad game mechanisms and I hope that we have in the next ten years big crashes with all these mid level games. Testing is so important, there are so many games which are just awful and I ask myself why could they release such bad games.

[@roop298]

Smiggy, stop umming and erring.