Subaru Symmetrical AWD with X Mode Off-Road Test

[@sking2173]

Another explanation for these “brake assist differential” vehicles having problems on steep hills. Simplified math: Low gear trans: 5:1 Differential. : 4:1 Total : 20:1 BUT, with a wheel in the air and an aggressive brake assist system locking down that wheel, the effective ratio to the wheel with traction is cut in half. Diff ratio to wheel with traction: 2:1 !! The total ratio between engine and that wheel: 10:1 !! So the torque the rear wheels are putting to the ground is only half what it would be if that axle didn’t have a wheel locked down. It’s counterintuitive, but total torque to the ground would be increased if the elevated wheel was allowed to spin some. This problem isn’t isolated to Subarus. If you’ll recall, you had a Cherokee with a V-6 do the same thing. Vehicles with this system really need more gear (e.g., a transfer case with a low range) to perform well on rutty, steep, off-road situations. Of course, nothing beats a locker!

[@EngineAdventures]

Yup, the Cherokee was the same, until I shifted the transfer case into 4wd low.

[@Sirgromulus]

Fair evaluation of a previous generation Outback. I love the Keene sandals!

[@EngineAdventures]

Finally warm enough to enjoy those!

[@cre8tivegarage157]

Thanks for showing us this great video!!!! These features are never full in depth explained and it’s video like these that have a great demonstration.

[@EngineAdventures]

Thank! I'm doing my best to cover as many vehicles as possible! It seems that a lot of people have a hard time finding this information.

[@cre8tivegarage157]

Yes keep up all the hard work 🙏 we support

[@jarrodmcdaniel]

Much like the RAV4, great all-wheel-drive system, but lack of gearing and torque limits it. Excellent video!

[@EngineAdventures]

Yeah very similar in capability. I think the RAV4 is a tiny bit more capable as you can choose a drive mode that lets the wheels spin. I couldn't get the Subaru to do that even with traction control off. Both are great vehicles!

[@sking2173]

@@EngineAdventures - pull that 7.5 amp fuse, and the little Subie will spew dirt all over.

[@EngineAdventures]

@@sking2173 yup, but it won't climb the steep hill still. Nothing to transfer power side to side when it hits the deep holes.

[@sking2173]

@@EngineAdventures - True - then you would need to drive like in the good old days when most all 4WD’s had open diffs at both ends. Back in the 70’s and 80’s, the hot ticket was to install a torsen diff in the rear. Old tech, but very effective ... Anyway, what pulling that fuse proves is that Subaru needs to do some major tweaking on their electronic nanny ... It’s kinda pitiful when the car sits on dirt with the throttle nailed to the floor and can turn nary a wheel ...

[@deepncsu]

@@EngineAdventures any idea if the Outback XT will do better? It has way more torque, but some turbo-lag too.

[@willba4]

This just about matches my experience with the new SK forester. 25% slope, with 1 wheel off the ground, and another with limited weight, and it just wont move at all, nor will it let anything spin.

[@EngineAdventures]

Thanks for your input! I'm curious if the turbo engines have enough torque to do better.

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

Engine Adventures the turbo engines have a different CVT designated the TR690HT. They have a quicker transmission stall, less crawl capability, but if you go in with more momentum it’ll do better. I highly recommend anyone offroading anything to get a transmission gauge. For $130 you can buy a Scangauge II and monitor ATF temps. I wouldn’t be surprised if you hit 240 Fahrenheit doing what you were doing. This means the Subaru was put into severe duty and should have the CVT fluid changed out at 24k miles or sooner. I personally know so many people that have killed their CVT’s, I killed a CVT in a 2015 FXT. “Monitor and maintain” that will prolong the life of these vehicles. Take care everyone

[@willba4]

@@EngineAdventures i should clarify, it was a 25 degree slope, not a 25% slope. just a "small" difference.

[@oguzhaneren]

This is a well known and well experienced/tried CVT issue with Subaru.. This is nothing to do with engine torque. Your engine in this test has more than enough torque to climb that hill but CVT/ECU is programmed to cut power to “protect” itself. This is the same with XTs and Ascent which have higher torque CVT (code: TR690) The torque converter could output more “stall torque” than TR690’s limit, that’s why it protects itself. However this protection mechanism only applies while the car is stuck (wheels and CVT chain not turning), of course it allows full torque if the car is moving...

[@EngineAdventures]

Interesting, thanks for the note!

[@christopherrasmussen8718]

We are on our 9th. An Ascent Touring. We had it in the Florida mud. It's not like my old CJ. I think you can dig into the settings and alter the torque curve. We had a Legacy that was totally able to keep up with the stock Jeeps,,

[@motormusique]

Can't help but think that the CVT limits this car's off road ability...the engine sounds like it's stuck at a low rpm when climbing

[@EngineAdventures]

The CVT is definitely a part of it, but many automatics that don't have low enough gearing have also struggled.

[@sigsegv0x0b]

@@EngineAdventures I always wonder if it's the cvt that's at fault. My guess it's just stall speed of the torque converter which the subaru cvt uses just like a conventional automatic and the simply the lowest gear ratio is just not being enough without a low range transfer case. If you look at the torque curve of the fb25 www.subaruoutback.org/attachments/subypowercurves-jpg.16201/ You can see the motor is already very close to the peak at 2000rpm. So my guess you simply don't have the torque to go over. Rather then any specific cvt issue.

[@sigsegv0x0b]

@@EngineAdventures Another question, do you think it's the cvt you smell ? Afaik it's completely sealed, my guess it's the brakes that are heated from fighting the wheels to imitate limited slip diff.

[@sigsegv0x0b]

@@EngineAdventures anyhow, props on the keens and amazing videos. Better then pretty much any other. Testing what needs to tested how it needs to be tested and no fluff. Thanks you for taking the time for these.

[@EngineAdventures]

@@sigsegv0x0b To me it didn't smell like brakes, and I have smelt the brakes on other vehicles in this testing procedure before. If the CVT is completely sealed then not sure what I was smelling.

[@CodeUnknownTV]

Now do the Onyx or the Limited XT with dual Xmode. The new Xmode is WAY improved and the power of the 2.4 is significantly better, especially low end torque. It would eat this hill alive, CVT or not. Peak torque over the 3.6 is 40+.

[@EngineAdventures]

I definitely want to test one of those!

[@sigsegv0x0b]

The 3.6 produces 80 to 90% of it's torque at 2000rpm, yes the peak is at 4000+ but the gain from 2000 to 4000 is actually quite small, you can find ez36 torque curves online to verify this

[@Doc1855]

We own a 19 Outback and Forester Touring. They are AWESOME for our needs. We live in north central WA state in a very mountainous area and live on a private road, 5 miles from town where we have to plow and maintain. We get 4-6 feet of snow every winter. The county road that goes to our private road is the Last to get plowed. We use our Xmode, stage 1 just to get up our road and into our garage. Sometimes we have to use Xmode stage 2 just to get up our county road. Our Subie’s have NEVER let us down. We would recommend Subaru to Anyone. They take us Everywhere we want to go. They’re Fabulous vehicles. My old Rav 4WD had to have studded tires put on every winter, but when we bought our Subie’s we drove them year round on factory tires. We’ve Never had a problem with our Subaru’s. We Brag about them. We recommend them to Anyone

[@EngineAdventures]

Subarus are excellent for bad weather on pavement and well maintained roads! Thanks for sharing your experience!

[@darvelbidenisapuppet7275]

Hope you can get your hands on a 2023 outback wilderness. it has a different rear-end .

[@EngineAdventures]

I really struggle to get Subarus, but I'll see what I can do!

[@franciscocarrera6188]

Please consider reviewing the CX-5. I wonder how it would do. Thanks!

[@EngineAdventures]

I would love to test a Mazda. I will see if I can get connected with them as I've seen one or two come through this area but I wasn't able to test them.

[@peterscott2662]

I'd like to see a Manual Transmission Subaru tested. Crosstrek is the only one left with ground clearance and MT?

[@EngineAdventures]

I believe so, I did miss out on the Crosstrek that came through a month ago as I was busy that week. Hoping to get a manual version at someone though!

[@4RT0119]

Try a Subaru with the 4EAT transmission to see the difference.

[@EngineAdventures]

Yeah there are a few that I need to try, like a Crosstrek with a manual transmision. Other vehicles with automatic transmissions have been stopped by this hill as well, not just CVT's. It's a lack of torque issue along with tall gearing.

[@MBR4740]

@@EngineAdventures That would be interesting to see a test with the Subaru Crosstrek with the manual transmission.

[@willba4]

@@MBR4740 the manual crosstrek has a different AWD system as well (fluid coupled center diff) so would be a very interesting comparison. but unfortunetly it wont be a true test of Auto vs Manual.

[@leonelsantamaria9653]

I would like to see the Subaru Ascent

[@EngineAdventures]

For some reason it's a little difficult to get Subarus out to me. I will see what I can do, but the Ascent has the same basic system as this Outback.

[@leonelsantamaria9653]

Engine Adventures but more torque...btw i hate the cvt’s they sucks

[@angekamin3242]

would off road tires have made a difference in climbing the road?

[@EngineAdventures]

Not in this case. It was lifting a wheel and had low traction on another, the traction control and CVT were really the limiting factors here. Better tires would make a difference in many situations though.

[@zogadwoe]

@@EngineAdventures yeah I don't know why subaru used cvt for such a great vehicle. It kills the fun off road

[@angekamin3242]

will you do the same demonstration with the 2020 subaru ascent limited? i do not see a lot of off road videos for the ascent. thanks

[@EngineAdventures]

It's hard to get Subarus here for some reason, but I will see what I can do. This one belonged to a family member and I was able to borrow it for these tests.

[@zogadwoe]

@@EngineAdventures thank you for trying to get a subaru ascent.

[@vincentwindels3752]

Nice review but just one thing, the engine is a H4, not a H6 !

[@EngineAdventures]

Yeah I was just saying that the Boxer 6 was an optional engine for this vehicle. I hope I never said that it's actually the 6 cylinder.

[@AntonioMartinez-xt7gg]

Muy interesante. Los motores cvt de subaru sufren una falta de continuidad en la entrega de potencia en casos de ruedas sin tracción. Creo que la electronica limita la potencia y falta alguna revision para solucionar este problema que afecta a tambien al forester 2L hybrid. Gracias por poner de manifiesto este grave problema para una marca pionera en los modelos suv como lo fue siempre subaru.

[@HarryLHeckler]

Thanks for your videos! I'd like to see you test a Model A or AA Ford on your off-road challenge.

[@EngineAdventures]

Thanks for the support! You get me something that old that the owner will let me test and I'll do my best! Haha

[@MrGovindsah]

Loved this video. Would like to see Tesla Model Y off-toad tests like this one...

[@EngineAdventures]

You and me both. As far as I know there aren't any Teslas in the media fleet.

[@Bebopin-69]

If the torque converter would just let the engine spin faster to get into the power.

[@EngineAdventures]

The CVT's lack of end end gearing doesn't help either. You are correct though, the traction system braked enough to stop the wheels in the air from spinning, the vehicle just couldn't get enough torque to the other wheels and overcome the braking force at the same time.

[@Bebopin-69]

@@EngineAdventures with the tech available today, i find it unacceptable to still use brake vectoring for pseudo-locking the diff on this type of car. You can easily put in a eletronicaly controlled locking diff.. even more unacceptable on the wilderness edition. I can understand on a car with NO sportiness/adventure expected. But unacceptable on a car 2.5 inches higher than regular cars.

[@EngineAdventures]

What's interesting to me is that so few companies use Torsen style limited slips. Purely gear driven, no clutches or anything to wear out, and when paired with the modern brake based systems they could be incredible. Not great for precise movements at slow speeds, which is where a full locker comes in, but I think they would be great for a Subaru type vehicle.

[@Mackis]

You should try with a Mini Countryman... Would be an amazing test and im sure surprising

[@EngineAdventures]

That would be a fun one. I will definitely see if I can get one! Thanks for watching!

[@Mackis]

Love your review. Won’t take long for you to get a lot of subscribers. Just don’t stop! Get that Mini Countryman I’m sure they will borrow you one! They are so happy of the X drive. I had a 2018 Mini Countryman S. It was a tank in snow and even off-road. With 4 seasons tire in harsh Quebec winter slippery roads didn’t even care and always hold his trajectory whatever happened or speed. I change car every 2-3 years. Now with a ram big horn 2019. Good luck with your KZbin channel wish I could do the same but life is life and can’t sadly.

[@EngineAdventures]

Thanks for the support!

[@lilpeppa117G]

Its that stupid cvt needs a starter gear like Corolla

[@EngineAdventures]

That is a great idea and I wasn't even aware the Corolla had such a setup!

[@drsus0]

So many video so theses Subarus failing up slippery hills ...seems to be an issue of using a CVT transmission off road, rendering them useless on steep and slippery conditions

[@EngineAdventures]

They wont have any problems in all weather conditions on pavement, and in most conditions off-road. It's, like you said, really steep sections where one or more wheels doesn't have traction where Subarus struggle.

[@dan.h210]

Try a Volvo Cross Country in the same spot!

[@EngineAdventures]

There are a few Volvos I would love to try. I haven't seen one in the press fleet yet though.

[@Vamanos46]

I think the Volvo XC90 is too heavy, the XC60 and XC70 (last few years prior to discontinuation) has good articulation to help with traction. I think the lighter weight of the Volvo XC40 (CMA platform, not the SPA platform) is most capable of all Volvos at this point give the steep grade. Volvo has programmed it's haldex system such that rear power transfer is ALWAYS active when starting from standstill regardless of drive mode. I don't know if they have been able to implement this in other models.

[@NathanMogk]

What is the slope on that hill?

[@EngineAdventures]

It actually depends on the vehicle I've had them read from 19 to 24 degrees. If we go off of 22 degrees that's a 40% grade.

[@tommymas1]

So, would the XT with higher torque lbs struggle less on those hills?

[@EngineAdventures]

That's what I'm thinking, but I would have to test it to find out for sure.

[@Cringer101]

Im pretty sure its not the engine that is restricting this, Its probably the CVT not allowing the torque through as its trys not to blow itself up

[@mallkrawlerz620]

Not with the same cvt. The xmode doesn’t send more power to each wheel just because you have more horsepower with the same transmission. You would need a Low transfer case to literally transfer all of the extra power you’re getting with an xt to the wheels but again, you have the same transmission.

[@tommymas1]

@@mallkrawlerz620 That is if you use Xmode, which turns off at 25mph. What about not using Xmode.

[@mallkrawlerz620]

@@tommymas1 yes of course with xmode on. Otherwise it’s normal driving conditions not off road. The problem is, if you take xmode off, you disable the 50/50 distribution to the front and back wheels. The lack of a 50/50 distribution can mean not getting up that hill even with xmode off because now you only have anywhere from 70/30 or 60/40 power front and back. Subaru’s can conquer many things. I believe it can conquer this hill as well very easily. Ideal mode for something like this would be, xmode on, and traction control off. With a “little” moment to keep the wheels spinning and holding the gas down consistently without releasing it at the first sign of spin and I guarantee you it will move up that simple obstacle

[@Sauersinger]

Is t this the base 4 or the turbo that has more torque also, do you keep the gear in low?

[@EngineAdventures]

This is a 2018 so only options were the 4 or 6 cylinders, this one is the base 4 cylinder. It has a CVT so keeping it in "low gear" doesn't matter. The hill is so steep that the CVT can't get down low enough to provide the needed torque. I do want to test a 2020 with the turbo engine or a Crosstrek with the manual trans.

[@jamespostle6894]

@@EngineAdventures what would happen if you put the cvt in manual mode then in gear 1?

[@EngineAdventures]

It's been long enough I don't remember if I did that or not, but I probably did. Either way the vehicle should be in as low as gearing possible when climbing something this steep. It wouldn't have made a difference.

[@jamespostle6894]

@@EngineAdventures I just saw it in a subaru forum that it might helpe in those situations but idk. I have a newer outback too so it just made me curious. Might have to go yest it out myself.

[@EngineAdventures]

@@jamespostle6894 that's always the best thing to do anyway! I'd just be careful not to work the CVT too hard.

[@milanmendis4257]

I did much steeper hill. About 50 degree or more angle. Uphill. At monument valley closer to the Mexican hat vicinity. Off roading. I had no trouble at all. I have a 2019 subaru 3.6r touring.

[@EngineAdventures]

Subaru advertises that the new Outback Wilderness can climb up to a 40% grade, which is about a 22 degree angle. The camera often doesn't show how steep something is, and I bet the hill you climbed felt ridiculously steep, but was still well below 50 degrees. That's about a 120% grade or 3 times more than the 2022 Outback Wilderness is rated for. Maybe you meant 50% grade, which is probably doable with some momentum built up before hitting the steepest section.

[@milanmendis4257]

@@EngineAdventures probably you are right. When I drove my 2019 3.6r uphill, I had about good 25 feet flat surface to get some momentum. So basically I didnt do a stop and climb. But it wasn't much flat surface space for pick up good momentum either.

[@7381366]

Stick shift is needed lol

[@personalfunfest]

One correction: this doesn't have permanent AWD.. it's a slip and grip system using a clutch pack, that's why it gets good gas mileage... the older systems using a viscos coupler were permanent...

[@EngineAdventures]

As far as I know the symmetrical AWD is sending power to all 4 wheels all the time. kzbin.info/www/bejne/fpS5iaxrftF4pZo

[@petrice3461]

Now I don't want buy it any more. My f150 is better in off road.

[@carllovullo6602]

Subaru are jokes! 🤦‍♂️🤣🤣 can you please do all these tests on the new Ford Bronco Sport Badlands! 😍👍

[@EngineAdventures]

Trying to get any Bronco Sport I can. I'll see what I can do!

[@carllovullo6602]

@@EngineAdventures The badlands please its the more capable version! 👍

[@mallkrawlerz620]

Xmode=50/50 front and back

[@EngineAdventures]

Interesting though. I know that it increases the clutch force but didn't know that it locks it at 50/50. It felt like there were times when one front wheel was spinning while neither of the back wheels was. I don't have any footage to back that up, just what I felt or thought I felt while driving.

[@mallkrawlerz620]

@@EngineAdventures key is knowing how the computers work. I went out this weekend And Did things that were way more complicated than this with no momentum. I think you’ll have the most amount of success in situations like this with xmode on to transfer 50/50 and traction control off. When the system is on xmode but with traction control still on it’s not giving you more power to any wheel still because your traction control and cars computers trying to compensate the spinning wheel and still cutting power to those wheels instead. you want those wheels to spin. I wish Subaru made their system less complex because it really confuses people and it than people have no idea how capable their little Subaru’s are.

[@EngineAdventures]

It got to the point where the transmission was starting to smell from heating up too much. As far as I know you have to pull a fuse to disable the traction control on this vehicle.

[@mallkrawlerz620]

@@EngineAdventures Oh boy yeah that could be part of the issue I’m not sure what they’ve done differently with your car but the Forester has the X Mode button and then you can turn it to the left to de activate traction control and it automatically turns on the hill descent when you turn the X mode on. I’m sure sometimes they try to make a few extra dollars off of some of the features they put on or takeoff of cars or different trim levels. But for sure when I turned the traction control off, it was off.

[@saif890000000]

Do it with the new xt edition it will climb

[@EngineAdventures]

I really want to test the XT trim out to see if the extra torque will make a big difference.

[@saif890000000]

@@EngineAdventures not just that but a new X-mode system that defeted cutting power problem

[@Antwan674]

I can climb that small hill with my polo tsi

[@EngineAdventures]

I've never been able to climb this hill with any 2wd vehicle. I'm sure it's possible if you can get enough momentum, but I'm trying not to damage anything either. It's hard to show how steep the hill actually is on camera.

[@BeeRoyLee]

Feel like my 2003 could handle that hill.

[@EngineAdventures]

Maybe, I don't know the hardware of the 2003, but without a decent limited slip front and/or rear differential, this is a pretty tough hill.

[@BeeRoyLee]

@@EngineAdventures I have vdc with 4eat.

[@EngineAdventures]

I'm guessing it would perform similarly, but haven't tested one, so I can't say for sure.

[@davetek490]

Good AWD system let down by crap cvt....

[@EngineAdventures]

Subaru's CVT is actually pretty good with few problems. What it really needs is a low range transfer case. I've driven other vehicles with 9 speed automatics that have the same struggles as this CVT does. I do want to test a Crosstrek with a manual though to see what it can do.

[@othan79]

You do understand offroad tires are essential to really test under this conditions? You cannot offroad test a vehicle with road tires, ofcourse the wheel are gonna slide. 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@EngineAdventures]

Tires are a completely separate thing from the traction system(s). With two opposite corner tires having little to no traction this Outback was unable to transfer enough power to the wheels with traction to make the steep climb. Also, I've found that in dry conditions as we've experienced over the past year that the highway tires perform better on the steep hill climb. The surface is very loose and dusty, the vehicles I've tested with aggressive tires quickly dig into the trail and do a lot of damage in a short amount of time, i.e. my Ram Rebel test. Tires are VERY dependent on the condition, but you are correct that in general an off-road tire is better when leaving the pavement.

[@alanbrooke144]

The reason you can’t move forward up a steep hill with a wheel off the ground / no traction has nothing to do with the CVT, the ‘lack of torque’ , the traction control or X-Mode ‘breaking the wheels'. It’s simply that it has an open diff. In future you may want to read up on how things work before making a video on the subject.

[@EngineAdventures]

If it had diff locks that would be better and it would probably be able to climb the hill. As shown when I took the easy line. Other vehicles that don't have CVTs, have more torque, but have brake systems to brake the spinning wheels have climbed this hill no problem. Check out all the vehicles I've taken up this hill!

[@CodeUnknownTV]

@@EngineAdventures Maybe you didn't have availability of it but the new XT engine with gen 2, level 2 xmode would have EASILY cleared this hill. There are already videos online with tougher obstacles and it had no issue. It does struggle in Xmode 1, but Xmode 2 allows a lot more wheel spin, among other adjustments.

[@basicuser54]

I’m not impressed.

[@EngineAdventures]

It's an excellent all weather vehicle. They are very reliable and quite durable, but certainly not a great offroader.

[@C.Dynamo]

ONLY BUY A SUBURU IF it’s “MANUAL”, maybe “AUTOMATIC”... NEVER CVT!!! 👎🏻🤦🏽

[@iigoofywebsterii]

This is a stupid test. Get some A/T or M/T Tires and try again.... NEXT..

[@EngineAdventures]

Interesting thought. In this test it really doesn't matter what tires you have, when climbing a steep hill with two wheels in the air this Outback won't be able to make it. Tires can help but this test is more about how power is transferred to the wheels with traction and low end torque is also tested.

[@veganpotterthevegan]

So you can have grippy tires that won't spin?