Melty Blood and Strive Are Opposite Sides of the Defensive Design Coin

[@Sorrelhas]

Everyone else: "Damn, everyone is spamming Shield in MB" Me, a Kouma main: "Yes! Wonderful, isn't it?"

[@CalebJF88]

I don't even play kouma but it's so easy to take advantage of shield spam

[@TheSeventhChild]

IAD charged jC on oki The overhead can only be faked, there is no risk of meaty overhead They still shield the command throw every time.

[@red6775]

im still up-backing

[@NeoBoneGirl]

@@TheSeventhChild I mean you can just time it differently to hit meaty with non charged jC

[@shman5000o]

Ive been seeing you all over FGC KZbin content for a good while bruh , and to find out now that you're a Kouma main...made my night. From one Kouma main to another, keep command grab dunking on them wake up shield players breh 👍

[@free_playstation_2]

faultless offense press button to pog

[@Johngle]

Daisuke's Vision™

[@harryvpn1462]

I have never had to rethink my offense as hard as I have when playing mbtl

[@s_factor_sam]

Tbh, the more I hear stuff like that, the more fun this game sounds to me.

[@wikygaming]

You guys never think about it?

[@Snakestube]

@@wikygaming Lmaoooo I wanted to say the same thing I think people are just starting fighting games

[@asmartphoneinquarantine3269]

@@wikygaming you guys think?

[@harryvpn1462]

@@Snakestube wtf? Not even safejumps are safe in mbtl

[@ThatWolfArrow]

It feels like there's some sort of paradox where games that have better defensive options often end up having more compelling offense overall. But the key word there is *better*. If a game's defensive options (or defense as a whole) are too strong, then it can feel like offense has very little payoff. The smart way to go about it is probably building your defensive options around your game's offensive tools (both universal and character specific.)

[@kominatoriku5483]

Like third strike’s parry?

[@ThatWolfArrow]

@@kominatoriku5483 That's usually the example people go to. But I'd also argue gaurd impact in soul calibur, mvci's pushblock, and even rolling in KOF are all good examples in the context of their games.

[@luigiwiiUU]

them's fightin herds

[@VergilMustDie666]

Defense in melty is so strong that it leads to strong offense as well. Shield can lead to so many big damage combos if you're optimal. Im really enjoying mb but damn, i kinda wish they tweak the shield a bit.

[@xmaracx]

I genuinely had this thought, cant wait to see how sajam explains my own idea to me cause im dense. EDIT Thx for the knowledge, thinking about it, im guessing strive reveals to people when their defense is weak and does NOT let them get away with it, whereas melty does the same with sub-par offense? Hence why these things are so prominently frustrating, since its tough to accept some of that shit. Ofc strive dmg up until now was damn near bonkers, interested to see how it develops, i have a good feeling were gonna hit a sweet spot or damn near close to it.

[@s_factor_sam]

Im not so sure that's accurate. I've been playing fighters for 19 years and have gotten compliments on my defense in games like Tekken, Virtua Fighter, SF 3rd Strike, Garou MotW, SamSho, etc. more times than I care to count. Yet I struggle with defense in Strive. And woth the amount of distaste from people both less and more skilled than me, I don't think it always indicates the player lacks defensive skill. Gameplay design has a HUGE determining effect on the game feel, the effectiveness of fundamental defense, the amount of agency (or lack thereof) when being pressured, as well as the demands on mental stack and knowledge checks in order to hold successful defense. Some games make defense unreasonably difficult and others make offense harder to maintain. Since most people find keepaway, turtling, and other forms of defensive play boring to watch and play against, overtuned offense is the direction that the majority of fighters have moved towards. Which is why so many people are complain when a single defensive mechanic is strong like Shield.

[@ehvaandal]

Yeah no, plenty of defensive players have come out and said this games defensive design is weak.

[@xmaracx]

@@s_factor_sam Ohhh i see, I hadnt considered the "exciting to watch aspect", yeah i see that, thx for the response.

[@NeoBoneGirl]

Thank god for Majin Obama making that video on the wakeup heat os, that shit has saved me many a round and it is literally the easiest thing to do on the planet. The only OS I can think of that matches it in terms of usefulness and ease of use is the throw OS from older GG games

[@decksteroussnail]

All the same SF4 OS stuff is there. jC ~ 623B(or whatever invincible dp) If they block it, dp won't come out. If they backdash or moondrive, dp comes out.

[@NeoBoneGirl]

@@decksteroussnail Yeah but the problem is is that they can just shield the safejump, putting you into shield RPS, and if they moondrive to make your jC whiff they can react shield or reversal or whatever to punish your DP. An option like that isn’t bad, but it’s not as powerful as you’d think it would be upon closer inspection

[@decksteroussnail]

@@NeoBoneGirl then safe jump empty jump backdash > punish

[@NeoBoneGirl]

@@decksteroussnail You get punished on regular block for that

[@decksteroussnail]

@@NeoBoneGirl melty players regular block wuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut?

[@MagicManCM]

Lordknight has some of the best neutral and defense i ever see in Strive and I hope I can hone my Millia to such a degree, and in turn have that knowledge transfer to my Nago. Learning Millia after so much Nago is like a whole new game, hopefully I can become confident with both of em

[@NPC_Algernon]

This was a cool video. I respect how insightful and positive Sajam has been about MBTL's competitive play despite the PC version not working well.

[@AkiRa22084]

Not working well? It's perfect.

[@JadeJackal4]

This is one of the best takes you’ve had on this channel in a long time

[@EarthLordCJ]

GORILLA OR TURTLE? DUEL: 1! LETS ROCK!!

[@crapstickmemento4132]

There are 100% ways to deal with shield in melty, and with someone like Akiha or Kohaku you are able to limit what they can do if they shield, Vlov can guaranteed counter you if you try to b shield counter a projectile from about half screen and he doesn't throw a second. People relying on this shit too much gets them grabbed a bunch in a row. It's just an added layer to oki which is basically long winded randomness anyway, not called 50/50s for nothing. It's a good mechanic imo, needs tweaking of course, because no version 1.0 of a fighting game is going to be perfect, but it's certainly not as horrible as some people may want you to think. Not like Strive players aren't used to grabbing someone 6 times in a row as oki anyway

[@orangecrisis8568]

Only thing we can say needs to change in meaty is the one-sided rollback

[@smoothsavage2870]

Yea, that tends to happen. People say they want one thing, then they get it and say they want the other lol.

[@ElectroSonic15]

This is an insightful look at the games. I guess the main difference though is the risk and how much stuff hurts. People wakeup moon drive moon skill and if you don't stop it they just get one confirm and their moon drive is nearly done. In Strive you take one risk and that's minimum 2/3 of your health and your opponent is probably in positive bonus

[@Eaode]

"minimum 2/3 health" I mean if the "one mistake" you're making is getting air CH by your opponent's best starter, then yeah.

[@GawainSSB]

I like MBTL. Too many people are used to braindead offense where knocking your opponent down gives you guaranteed free insane pressure where they have extremely limited options to get out. The only things I think are too much at the moment in this regard is how frequently you get access to moondrive and maybe low shield shouldnt stop mids. But even with those, you can save your drive to counter their wakeup drive and so on. The griping mostly seems to come from decades of expectation, not actual balance.

[@Snakestube]

Well said

[@raydeh96]

Yeah I agree, I liked how in MBAACC if you low shielded successfully you basically called your opponent out on predictable pressure, low shield in Type Lumina feels like it's used in the same scenarios as low blocking, for lows and mids, which reduces complexity somewhat Also mini gripe but I'm a little salty they made some moves like Ciel's 5B a mid when it's visually a low and has been for all previous entries

[@davidburke4101]

Swapping "braindead" offense for braindead defense is worse imo. Knockdowns are your reward for winning neutral/landing a succesful mixup. In melty blood this is basically nonexistent. The mixups are pretty weak and the OS's are just to beat defensive options while offering no actual mixups aside from raw strike/throw. All i've seen is people get counterhit for mashing because the offense is so weak that they aren't even afraid to mash. There are some pretty powerful crossup setups in high level play that beat shield though.

[@GawainSSB]

@@davidburke4101 Honestly the less of the maids corner setplay type stuff I see the better. I have seen that in enough games. When I say braindead that is what I'm talking about, people who just wanna run the setplay they labbed every single knockdown. I like that for most scenarios, shield forces the character on offense to think before doing a meaty or whatever. Its not as if you lose advantage by letting them get up sometimes, you probably still have corner, you still have control of the situation. All it means is you gotta respect defensive options more. I still go for meaty attacks I just need to be a lot more careful about when.

[@AkiRa22084]

Hang on. What are mids? This is not Tekken. Low shield does not stop overheads.

[@qedsoku849]

In Soku, both defence and pressure are really strong. You can cancel blockstun (for a small cost) into a projectile immune dash, jump, or a backdash with full invul at the start. On pressure you have a really open cancel system where you can cancel lights into heavy attacks, both into projectiles or specials, and all projectiles into jumps or airdashes. Also, 16 frame (or less) high low mixups that rather than hit when blocked incorrectly, reduce shield, lock defensive mechanics, and give better frame advantage.

[@X19Virus]

Soku?

[@easyleg7521]

@@X19Virus Hisoutensoku i imagine

[@chronosanaki5174]

@@X19Virus Another poverty fighting game that's probably only still played because it's Touhou, unlike Melty Blood: Current Code there's a lot of elements to the game that don't make the game fun like having to upgrade or swap special moves during the match, a deck system that dictated by RNG which provides what super moves, special moves, and system cards you get. And if you thought the hitboxes in old Melty were intimidating, Soku's hitboxes can be downright polarizing. It's fun on a casual level but that's where the fun really ends. It has a fanmade rollback patch like old Melty does but you need to port forward or use AutoPunch in order for it to work.

[@voidartichoke]

Soku is tight. Sajam should try it sometime

[@hirotrum6810]

Lmao that game is fucking acid. Overhead jabs, weather, deckbuilding, changing your moveset midmatch

[@hijster479]

Personally I think the problem is that the damage is so high in Strive and the system mechanics never throw the defender a bone. Something I think is notable is that both games use Hard knockdowns and have no ways to alter frame advantage on block. In both of these games, if you get knocked down or even just block something thats plus you have to hold it. IMO this justifies giving the defender strong options. If I can't avoid a situation at least give me the tools to deal with it.

[@Snakestube]

Well said

[@legendarylitening]

We have burst, faultless defence, yellow rc, IB, reversal or reversal super, throw is good on defence, and also good ol regular block. You have so many bones, it’s up to you to take them. Also it’s a god damn fighting game at the end of the day, some times you should block and sometimes you need to guess high or low. I don’t understand how defence is weak at all

[@Snakestube]

@@legendarylitening All of that is tied to the same bar besides burst which usually baited out In celestial levels of play

[@legendarylitening]

@@Snakestube it is so unbelievably easy to get meter in this game. Are you seriously acting like pro players don't burst? it's quite rare for me at least not to have access to any of these resources. And if you don't, you just block because it's a fighting game at the end of the game, and i don't know if this is news to you but sometimes you need to just hold back.

[@Snakestube]

@@legendarylitening It’s unbelievably easy to build meter if you are on Offense. And people don’t burst anymore they are looking to gold burst. The thing is you don’t get anything for blocking in this game you’re actually punished for blocking, Back dashing, jumping back, more than 4 times… NEGATIVE PENALTY. Strive is cool But let’s talk about it.

[@purifyws]

hahaha great video and I agree, it's also nice to zoom out a bit and appreciate how we have this variety available. Thankfully the two games are so different like that. I'm going to play them as well as KoF next year, all at the same time competitively like I used to. Looking forward to it

[@kdawg3484]

5:27 LordKnight is also an excellent Melty player, so you can't really go wrong. One stop shop.

[@SpoonOfHawaii]

I'm always grateful for vids like this because it reminds me to take a step back and rethink my approach and strategy when I hit a wall

[@YouCanCallMeIz]

Grab. Just grab. That's how you beat shield.

[@poinguard909]

Tekken turns have programmed me in the worst way, I just be sitting there in other FGs lol

[@ZetaStriker0000]

I'm far from a top player or a fighting game vet, but I do try to learn and grow as I go from game to game. Strive I feel like I have a decent grasp of both offensive and defensive tools, but I'm so bad at baiting burst or DPs except against Leo players because it's guaranteed every time with them. As such yeah, I do have to say I ran into that problem with Melty. I build my entire offense around shield, but I find myself just going face first into moon drive reversals, heat burst and DPs all the time. It's like having to constantly plan my entire game plan around shield makes me worse at a part of fighting games I'm already not great at, it does bother me a bit even if I'm still having fun with Melty.

[@Drawfill]

I can defend pretty well in strive IMO. Melty? Shit I play Vlov so they stay the fuck away from me xD Im so bad at melty defense.

[@AmeNGO758]

Don't worry about it. Melty players just never blocks.

[@sopadefideos5636]

I like how in the thumbnail leo is writing in the book ''wake up dp''

[@GGus776]

My favorite part of the MB shield arc is how the longer the game is out, the more it seems the best option bar none to beat shield rps is to follow up your shield with... nothing. Half-jokes aside, the more I play the game the more it seems to me that the offense in MB is incredibly degenerate and so far it's only been kept in check with how strong the defensive options are. How the game will look like in a few months is beyond me, but I'm curious to see how it goes, I haven't been in the scene enough to see a game with such strong defensive options develop so it's interesting to see it.

[@s_factor_sam]

As someone who got into the genre through SoulCalibur 2 and 3, I'm already used to it. It's not unlike the mindgames around Guard Impact in those games.

[@s_factor_sam]

What this tells me is that MBTL is a fighting game in which aggression is NOT the optimal way to play at low-to-mid skill levels (aka. The majority of players) and that the bulk of the required knowledge checks are focused on 'how to play around strong defense' for once, rather than the usual 'how to defend against offense'. Considering that overtuned offense is the majority trend in modern fighters, and some other genres (a trend I hate), this is a nice change of pace. Finally some more variety, for those of us who don't enjoy copious offensive pressure in competitive PvP games of any genre. The more I learn about MBTL the more I consider buying it. Compared to Strive, in which the more I played it, the less I wanted to continue playing it until I ended up dropping it and waiting to see what today's patch will do to the game feel. The same has happened for me with most fighters released since 2012. I've tried almost all of them, and I now feel like I've wasted so much time and money. 😅 Especially since, as a player with a primarily defensive skillset, most of my experiences have been 'conform to offense meta or just don't play', which is why VF5US is my main game. I already enjoyed VF5FS and my skillset is actually rewarded as I play Vanessa. But as someone who generally plays at least at mid skill level in any fighter, when I can find genuine motivation, MBTL might be a rare modern release that's actually for me AND that has rollback netcode. I'm now just waiting a bit longer because I'd hate to spend $50 only for the devs to nerf Shield, buff offense, and make it less enjoyable for me (like with the season 3 update of SamSho 2019). That would tilt me pretty hard, ngl.

[@TheSeventhChild]

I'd recommend watching some more of it first. Offense in Melty has already quickly picked up into being pretty oppressive and at a mid level of play improper use of shield will absolutely get you killed. Moon Drive is strong but counter Moon Drive just puts you back into a difficult RPS situation.

[@s_factor_sam]

@@TheSeventhChild I grew up on SoulCal 2 and 3. Shield isn't too unlike Guard Impact, in execution, mindgames, and counterplay. But I do plan on watching for a bit longer, to see how things develop and whether the devs end up nerfing it or otherwise inch the game towards favoring offense like many before.

[@Snakestube]

Well said

[@jangouni1619]

Most thought I've had in terms was defensive OS was doing forward+D when Miyako cancels into the rekka(?)/crossup move.

[@ArchOfficial]

I think the defensive options in TL are *a bit* too strong, but it is interesting how doing nothing after a 2AAA blockstring is a mixup now.

[@jouheikisaragi6075]

I love that the thumbnail has OG Shiki and not Remake, as if admitting his old look is better

[@QuasiGame0]

Too many people complain about MD into MS and Shield, instead of accepting the system mechanics and using/working around them, maybe people need to go less ham with their meatys and grow patience, sure the mechanics are strong, but so are the Cast, meanwhile Miyako has an OS that covers pretty much everything and a pressure string that's sure to open almost any player,

[@raiden3079]

what os and string PLEASE tell me

[@luigiwiiUU]

@@raiden3079 2A > 2A+D counters heat, and 2A > delay moon drive counters moon drive

[@Dasaltwarrior]

Strive is focused on making you think about your and your opponents kit. Melty Blood is like a couple of cracked out bishi anime characters getting into barely legigible slap fights. And I love them both equally

[@Zetact_]

Ironically Daisuke made a world where it's basically rumble in the jungle everybody throw down and get into a Lallapallooza slugfest and Nasu [tried to] make a setting built entirely on knowledge and countering what a person is uniquely capable of doing.

[@Aripuni1]

I like daisuke better

[@Dasaltwarrior]

@@Zetact_ As someone who has only touched Nasu's stuff through Melty Blood and Fate memes, all I see is that he's edgy, horny, and has a thing for petite blond haired european women, so it kinda checks out that way I guess

[@mochii813]

@@Dasaltwarrior Funny thing is you described the artist (fun fact: nasu hates H-scenes)

[@Zetact_]

@@Dasaltwarrior Nasu, yes, but the taste in women, no. Takeuchi likes the blondes. Nasu is more into heavily promiscuous evil women with martyr complexes and typically long dark hair.

[@legendarylitening]

I think a game like guilty gear is just much much more up my alley. I love aggressive play which is why I love gear. I love how I can use all my meter each round without needing to save any. I don’t feel like constantly questioning my offence or refining it so it’s incredibly tight. I dislike moon drive and shield. But I think I almost dislike heat the most, I dislike other fighters with healing mechanics too. It really feels like my work being taken away, I don’t like it at all. Not to say any of this is bad, I just don’t think it’s for me. Maybe I’ll give melty another go in the future

[@EPICSAWIKI]

Well looks like I opened up youtube at just the right moment lol

[@CineGoodog]

I really don't understand how you can hate Melty Blood defensive options. There are so many OS in that game. Way better than flipping a coin between a frame trap and a grab on strive.

[@user-cc3ef7qh1x]

The level of coping is unreal

[@pipsdontlie3031]

​@@user-cc3ef7qh1xThey're just plainly right

[@kinginthenorth1437]

Some how when I saw your stream title I though it was going to be about the narrative in your comment sections about people defending janky lobbies vs people defending one-sided rollback and how reasonable it is to not skip intros.

[@vintageeyepatches1605]

Ok, but what if you land on the side of the coin?

[@Sakaki98]

Kind of a nitpick but I wish you’d give Melty the same courtesy you do Strive-acknowledging that the modern entry of the game varies wildly from its previous ones-and specifically call it Type Lumina in the title. Anybody who’s played just about Melty game seriously knows TL’s shield RPS is an entirely different beast from what we had before in ex guard, spot dodge, shield bunker, and so on. Just about the only faithful defensive mechanic in that game is Blood Heat.

[@turbogeschwindigkeit6180]

Are you calling out Jiyuna?

[@jouheikisaragi6075]

Why would he be calling himself out?

[@mapotofu1427]

@@jouheikisaragi6075 lol

[@EliTheGleason]

I'm a low level player, I've tried strive and enjoyed it but I hadn't considered any of this. In yalls opinion, which do you think is better to dump time into as my first serious game? Cuz melty is also sounding cool

[@brandonwilbur2146]

Lol I can't do anything on defense in GG... you literally have Burst which gives you a get out of jail free card mid combo (and it also takes skill to use)

[@Snakestube]

It’s important we talk about the gripes anywhere we can So more developers understand Defense Is fighting back too I would hate for strives regimen to become the new standard. Dragon ball Z fighters has reflect Melty blood has shield streetfighter has Vreversal Soulcalibur has G.I. Mortal Kombat Has a block button/Flawless block etc.. i’ve played a lot of fighting games and strive feels wrong Defensively

[@cough8389]

sorry for asking, but what is an OS? i’m not too familiar with the term

[@JetStream0509]

Option Select, where you input something and depending on the situation, different things happen. For example, in the previous patch there was something called Throw OS where you input throw and RC and if the throw wiffed, an RC would come out. But if the throw landed, RC would not come out.

[@cough8389]

@@JetStream0509 ah okay, thanks a lot !

[@greatestgamer00]

Haaaa i have a command grab and armor. This changes nothing

[@someguymalleth]

I tend to like games with few defensive options that you have to find ways to make work. It feels elegant to work with just the basics. And I also enjoy powerful offense. So Strive fits me pretty perfectly. Sure it sucks sometimes when you're on the defense but if the game is balanced there's rarely any checkmate situations. If you get hit it's always your fault and you just failed to find the way out. Threading that needle on defense is pretty satisfying to me.

[@Skel_fgc]

I’m never gonna get used to the way air block interacts with grounded attacks, especially when characters like Red Arc have access to something as ignorant as an air unblockable level 3 that covers literally the whole screen

[@thefractalcactus]

I just can't wrap my head around Melty. I took to Strive quite well, but I started having trouble with Type Lumina almost immediately (and I played a fair amount of Uni). To me, it feels like a mess. Sure, top level players have an arsenal of option selects to deal with every scenario, but I'm struggling just to apply the pressure I practice in the lab, because I can't get anything started. Basically threw my hands up and flushed the game after less than a week. It's been a long time since I've been this frustrated and disappointed by a fighting game. I was looking forward to it so much too.

[@Snakestube]

Damn this is the easiest game I ever played

[@raydeh96]

I think it'd help to have someone that you can play long sets with. There's so many options and variances in how people play even a single character, that if you're not used to Melty neutral you can struggle getting a read on your opponents habits Playing long sets helps you recognise different playstyles quicker, as well as what options people go for in general It might take you going 0-10 against a Saber in Player Match, then the next day you run into another Saber and you're better equipped to deal with what they're doing, see what they're not doing, and how you can better apply offence/run better defense against them

[@thefractalcactus]

@@raydeh96 I found a few new videos for my character online and tried out some of the tech right after I posted this. Even the few things I learned from that video made me feel more confident and I had a little win-streak going. I just needed to take a break from the game and reevaluate it for a bit. I think I'm going to stick with it. I just need to pace myself and stop pressuring myself to learn it so quickly.

[@AkiRa22084]

@@thefractalcactus Good that you reconsidered, since your initial comment sounded like it came from a different planet.

[@dylantwomley1739]

As an Axl main I personally feel like I be Finessing defense all time in strive

[@aj991]

Give more tension on block please... having only 20% while your opponent have 100% tension is just feels so bad, when you already block all the blockstring.

[@Sg6CrossOver]

If they reduce the risc gauge or how fast it decay would be nice too

[@trajantrevino1673]

Man idk if it’s just me but I couldn’t find a character I really liked in MB. That was the biggest thing for me. I found ino and nago in strive at release and really liked them a lot. I haven’t felt the same of any of the MB cast. Might just be me tho

[@hijster479]

Ngl, I'm loving the game, but I feel the same way. I tried Miyako week 1, and then Arcueid, and this week I'm playing Ciel. At this rate I'll have played most of the cast before the year ends.

[@trajantrevino1673]

@@hijster479 yeah for sure, how I said I’m happy some people like the change of pace and the game but maybe it’s just not for me

[@EllaEllaAudios]

MB is really made for Tsukihime fans I feel like, if you know nothing about the characters I can understand why they wouldn't feel very interesting, but knowing the source material I love every single character

[@vicio19995]

i hate defensive OS so much, letting the game choose the better option for you should not be a thing

[@Sg6CrossOver]

OS is retarded on offense and defense, same guys that complain about not having 1f links and use plinks, OS to overcome it.

[@orangecrisis8568]

Then there is me bad at both :(

[@jpVari]

I'd have liked strive more if it felt like there were always tools. I'm happy to talk about it in positive ways but sometimes I felt answer less. As Faust and Jacko so no reversal without meter. The new patch looks good, fd does a lot, but I feel it's not a game designed for me. Melty blood is. I'm happy that these two games exist right now and everyone can play what they like! It's wonderful really. And it's funny a couple weeks in to hear people say moon drive and such are auto freedom from offense when it's already not true. (I know you weren't saying that, other people have). They show themselves, just like people saying (especially now) that there are no options in strive. Hyperbole is a pain because people believe themselves.

[@KewlAlexYT]

Any character with a zero bar true DP is already carried in most games BUT in MBTL?! Hella busted

[@kazkatgamer6722]

Melty offense would be great...if the online could actually read inputs correctly

[@AkiRa22084]

It works great.

[@kazkatgamer6722]

@@AkiRa22084 Tell that to one sided roll back against a friend who lives less than 5 mins away both on Lan.

[@sotothankyouidied]

The defensive options in melty aren't even that hard to deal with people just don't want to think while doing offense. This reminds me of everyone bitching about how overly defensive mk11 was 🙄 .

[@IronChefBoyardee]

My problem with shield in Lumina is it doesn't feel fun. It feels obnoxious to deal with on offense, and on defense it feels like a gamble, and your best bet is to not play. No one is having fun when the shield wars start. Maybe I'll be wrong. Who knows.

[@Loocheena]

You don't have to, just empty shield

[@baltharaaz9847]

A lot of upper level players have broken down the shield minigame into either empty shield or "save your moon meter to delay B+C thrust when shield comes up." Not playing at all is pretty reliable. Though I wouldn't be surprised if, in the future, they overhauled/added more to what you can do out of shield, like maybe some special moves.

[@s_factor_sam]

Its not too different from the mondgames around Guard Impact in SoulCalibur 2 and 3. As those were my first and favorite fighting games, Shield actually makes MBTL sound more fun to me than every offense-oriented fighter released in the last decade. Which is most, released in the last decade. 😅

[@JalisR]

The sooner Strive players start using FD the sooner they can stop complaining about Nago

[@Sparklesniff]

just make shield 2F start lacEZ

[@AkiRa22084]

When the offense is strong in a game, it's frustrating. You have to sit there and watch getting comboed. When the defense is strong in a game, it forces you to think your approach and I find that fun.

[@Moqlnkn]

Sure but what do you mean by "offensive" vs "defensive" mechanics? I feel like those definitions are critical to the core message of the video. Also, would focus attacks in SF4 be "offensive" or "defensive?" You can use them on defense to make your DPs safer, but you can also use them after a projectile from far away to get in. As a Seth player, I use both very frequently. In that sense, a single mechanic isn't "offensive" or "defensive," but it can be used in "offensive" or "defensive" ways. Perhaps, then, a "defensive" mechanic is a mechanic that really only has "defensive" uses. In turn, it's not that Melty's "defensive" mechanics are too strong, but that the mechanics in Melty have too strong of "defensive" uses. This still doesn't define "offensive" and "defensive," though. It's not enough to just collectively agree that shields and moon drive are "defensive."

[@flamingaroow59]

An offensive option is an option you use on offense and a defensive option is an option you use on defense.

[@Moqlnkn]

@@flamingaroow59 Wow that's a very insightful comment. How do you define "on offense" and "on defense" though?

[@flamingaroow59]

@@Moqlnkn Attacking and defending

[@NuclearNacho13]

@@Moqlnkn This might be equally as imprecise, but I'd consider offense what you do on "your turn" and defense what you do on "their turn".

[@Moqlnkn]

@@NuclearNacho13 I assume you're talking about frame advantage. But, by your definition, it's not the thing you're trying to use, or the reason you're trying to use it, but the situation in which it is used that dictates whether the actions you take are 'offensive' or 'defensive.' The problem then becomes that you can't make offensive and defensive decisions, because every decision you make is locked into one of the two categories based on the specific situation. That makes no sense. There are definitely players that are more defensive than others, like Justin Wong, and players that are more offensive, but, by your definition, things are only offensive or defensive based on the situation, not the player. Here's my proposed definition for the terms "offensive" and "defensive." You are making an "defensive" decision if you are doing something that is likely to work in your favor, but has high repercussions if it is successfully countered. You are making an "offensive" decision if it'll only yield an advantage if the opponent acts in specific ways, but the advantage gained is high. For example, a reversal DP is a defensive decision because it beats a lot of things, but the risk if it's baited is high. Blocking is a defensive tactic because it's likely to work against a lot of things. The only things it really loses to are throws and unreactable overheads/unblockables. Shielding is more offensive than blocking because you're locked into the Shielding direction for a few seconds, meaning it's more likely to get countered if the opponent doesn't immediately swing into the shield, but the reward for shielding is usually higher than blocking if it does work, because of shield counters and no chip damage. In short, defensive strategies are more consistently slightly rewarding, whereas offensive strategies require specific reads but yield greater reward. There are weaknesses to this definition, but it's certainly better than the not-definition Sajam didn't give us in the video.

[@Atlas_FGC]

This essentially boils down to hand-waving the topic away while giving an explanation that low level players would find believable. I don't have the energy to address all the points in some response vid or novella-length post, but instead I'll just lament that this is what passes for the informative end of the FGC content creators.

[@antonnygodinho95]

i cant play defensive in mbtl 👍

[@peteryang8189]

🎮

[@AkiRa22084]

Low shield does not cover mid. What is Sajam talking about?

[@Sg6CrossOver]

It does

[@AkiRa22084]

@@Sg6CrossOver Mid is overhead. Low shield does not protect against overhead.

[@harrylane4]

@@AkiRa22084 overhead is objectively not mid

[@AkiRa22084]

@@harrylane4 Can you explain more? It's been 9 months, I hardly remember what Sajam said. In Tekken "Mid" and "Overhead" are the same thing (low block can't protect against it). In MB and GG "Mid" does not exist, only "Overhead". So what is Sajam talking about?

[@AkiRa22084]

@@harrylane4 Please elaborate, you are not making any sense.

[@viper64jr]

Aww Leo you can’t read haha put that book down.

[@ArlenPierce]

Lol yee

[@greenoftreeblackofblue6625]

Melty Defense is top class preventing online play is the first line of defense making any play at all easy due to the intentional lag they put in making defense better.

[@TaigaGalette]

shield is the worst mechanic in any fighting game in the last 10 years and its going to kill the game for several people - also to add the fact of strive vs melty your literally hitting 1 button and your oki game is borderline non existent

[@NeoBoneGirl]

How easily people forget Pandora Mode and X Factor…. In all honesty I think that if they just made dealing with low shield easier (aka either making it so fatal counter throw gives a combo or that low shield doesn’t beat mids), it would be in a pretty good spot as a mechanic

[@TaigaGalette]

@@NeoBoneGirl idk what pandora is but X factor isnt a bad mechanic dbfz has something similar i also agree low shield needs tweaking right now as it is i do not think this is a good game but it has potential if they fix it soon

[@hijster479]

If your oki consists only of lows and reactable overheads, you deserve to lose the interaction. There are hard counters to shield, throwing is an option, but you can also just whiff punish it. And this is before mentioning that you might just win the shield RPS anyway. It sounds like you're struggling to adapt.

[@NeoBoneGirl]

@@TaigaGalette X Factor is ten times worse than Sparking in DBFZ. So much so that fighting a team with Vergil on it felt like you didn’t even start until you got them to pop level 3 X Factor. Pandora Mode is just a completely shit designed mechanic in SFxT that might as well not exist. I would’ve said to add Ultra from SF4 to that list but SF4 is older than 10 years

[@NeoBoneGirl]

@@hijster479 Whiff punishing it is a little tricky since they can keep holding it and the whiff recovery isn’t reactable, so u kinda gotta guess when they’ll stop. I don’t think shield ruins the game, but I wouldn’t mind a low shield nerf or somethin

[@Alandus64]

I dislike TL

[@Sg6CrossOver]

I can't bring myself to like a game where OS and autocombos is main part of the game neither

[@harryvpn1462]

@@Sg6CrossOver huh

[@Alandus64]

@@Sg6CrossOver I want to say it’s my skill and I’m the problem, but I was good at AACC and even when I was losing I loved that game to death. TL is just frustrating. There’s too much new and weird TL specific stuff I need to learn and it’s annoying tbh. I wanna keep trying it and learning new tech so I can try to enjoy it. I kinda don’t have a choice since I spent 50 dollars on this game; I can’t not like it or else it’d be a waste of money and time. I don’t wanna accept that just yet.

[@Sg6CrossOver]

@@harryvpn1462 ?

[@luise2705]

@@Sg6CrossOver what you mean part of the game? the better combos are not auto combos.

[@sorubro2193]

Strive is shit, Melty isnt, its not complicated

[@Sg6CrossOver]

Why only melty is played on restroom then?

[@sneednfeed5559]

Nice 1.3k players dood

[@harrylane4]

no like popular game like less popular game