Cutting Through the BS to Get to The Interesting Discussion is a Full Time Job

[@free_playstation_2]

"Lab Coat 21 poisoned our water supply, burned our crops and delivered a plague unto our meta!" "She did?" "No, but are we just gonna wait around until she does?"

[@theDOVAHKIN1998]

Bro this hurt my soul. I remember not liking gogeta ssj4 for his crazy level of privilege (same as ui) but was decried for not slobbing the hype nob now I'm hated just for liking a re skin that's not even better than her base variant

[@vanjagalovic3621]

@@theDOVAHKIN1998 What are you talking about? Lab Coat is way better than regular Android 21

[@GurenKitsune]

How could she burn our women and rape our churches

[@JonathanRiverafrickinnice555]

@@GurenKitsune That's...awful still. Don't have intercourse with any building.

[@GurenKitsune]

@@JonathanRiverafrickinnice555 the nuns had it coming

[@HopelessEnigma]

"Little Caesar's tastes amazing when there isn't some bitch in your ear telling you it's nasty." This applies to everything in existence.

[@Wiipodicus]

lil caesars is MY garbage i love that shit its so fire

[@Sorrelhas]

"This character is BROKEN!!" **video is just the character doing reasonable damage in a combo**

[@theDOVAHKIN1998]

"This character broken" *shows high level twitter clip that requires max meter and and un optimal starter to kill *

[@JohnnyLongHands]

It’s amazing that Sajam doesn’t have millions of subscribers. He’s easily one of the most well spoken commentator in the history of esports. You can apply any of his ideas and discussions to a multitude of topics. Too bad fighting games aren’t look at like professional sports otherwise he would be one of the most highly recognized thinkers and commentators out there. Good work Sajam.

[@maxrusty3596]

He'd do better if he wasn't so pompous and touched his hair less for sure.

[@glass916]

Riot Games will save the fgc

[@AkudamaEXE]

I’m waiting for the artosis Sajam cross over where artosis explains why Protoss is the clown race.

[@Psyprox]

cancelled by Capcom commentary illuminati

[@faragaroruga3229]

@@glass916 Yeah like SF5 did, like rollback did, like strive did...

[@leithaziz2716]

Sajam describing how people's mood can kill your enthusiasm basically describes my love for fighting games on the casual side. I would have probably felt better if I didn't check with some communities and comments so often. The nitpicking, the "hot" takes, people invalidating or just plain mocking your love for something without solid ground, etc. This goes further than just one genre the more I think about it.

[@soliduswasright678]

That's why I don't follow most FGC 'content creators'. Most of the time I'm betting they don't even mean the things they say and are just baiting for 'interactions'.

[@KuroShiiiiro]

im comin from smash into the wider fgc and i hesitate having discussions in threads 😂 smash is jus alot of bitching, at all levels, over everything. i jus wanna talk ab the game & how to solve it 🤦🏽

[@mimipeahes5848]

Every hobby is made worst by using twitter or engaging in discourse haha

[@RocketSlug]

Funny enough, stuff like this is the original definition of "toxic" when Riot first coined the term. One instance of negativity drags down everybody else and generally makes everything nasty by osmosis

[@mallow2902]

See gaming discussion on the internet in general. While it's true that crappy things happen in the industry it seems like so many people have completely forgotten to have fun. Everything is either utter trash or a complete masterpiece and it's created this mindset that if anything is even slightly off base it ruins a game. I think gamers could afford to chill out a bit, and it might make them feel less miserable and find more fun in the hobby, or for those people saying "gaming isn't fun anymore", they can step back and realize they've changed and need a new hobby. I just wish people would chill out about video games.

[@kojack_ay99]

@@mallow2902 I wish everybody would understand this.

[@tingispingis]

Yeah I mean toxic is a pretty self explanatory term but so many people seem to misunderstand what it means nowadays.

[@TheEvilCheesecake]

It's only osmosis if it's water, if it's anything else then it's just diffusion. Why do so many people know the word and not what it means

[@harrylane4]

@@TheEvilCheesecake because prescriptivism is pointless, stupid and pedantic, and language in practice doesn’t actually function with strict rules like you think it does. As a linguist, this pedantic idea that language can be used “wrong,” especially when the actual meaning comes across perfectly clear, is nonsense and annoying. You aren’t smarter than somebody because you can “um actually” their idiom.

[@joshuaworden274]

I think one of the things that obscures the low quality of most fighting game criticism is that fighting game design is completely obscure and esoteric. Bafael's 'Bad Balance' series is an example of balance criticism done well, in my opinion, because he actually presents a structured argument about how good/bad a character is and why. Like a human being, he makes claims, then supports them with evidence. But the results are dense, dry, 20-minute videos packed with incredibly technical, situation-by-situation analysis, much of which will fly right over the head of the average follower of Leffen or whoever. The root issue is that you can't do well-supported, well-structured criticism in 280 characters on twitter, and you can't do it off the cuff on twitch right after an embarrassing or frustrating loss. The secondary issue is that most people don't understand enough about fighting game design to recognize how thin and flawed the arguments of their favorite influencers are, and so they just assume that they are right and go on parroting whatever they say because they lack the tools to think critically about what's being said. What the FGC needs is an intermediate step, something that can bridge the gap between shallow, Leffen-ish understanding and the Bafael-ish deep-end. So anyway subscribe to Sajam.

[@brainSnakes]

I love fighting games, and I've also played a lot of mmos. There is a phenomenon in both genres of people chasing a dream of what they used to have, forever trying to recreate the joy felt from a cherished game when they were young enough to be unaware of its failings. They'll take whatever ephemeral joy they can from a new release, but are too entrenched in their knowledge to ever find the perfection they seek to recreate, because that was only possible in ignorance. Anyway I'm really enjoying KoF15 hbu

[@yourbellboy]

god i never thought i would love KOF this much 😩

[@TonyTheTGR]

So dank! But I feel you.

[@walterburdzy5408]

Something that I've really noticed about modern fighting games is that even when they have some super fucked up stuff like Chaos shooting you to death or Nago twerking across the screen, the gap between that crazy stuff and the average stuff, and especially the worst stuff is just not that huge anymore. They've really gotten better at creating a broad experience where one thing doesn't COMPLETELY consume the game, and that no other mechanic or character is so bad that you'd feel like an idiot for even trying your favorite character. People get grumpy a lot because it's easy to be loud and negative discourse gets clicks, but honestly I do think we're in a golden Era for the genre, and we still can keep climbing.

[@genzo454]

Yeah, when looking from Tekken Tag 1 to Tekken 7, things are _way_ more balanced than they were before. Are there still things that are too good? Yes, but (most of the time) things are quite functional.

[@AntanovOCEFGC]

This is probably why LB 21 is causing such a outcry, since she IS that ridiculous that people can already tell she's gonna take over the game.

[@leithaziz2716]

@@AntanovOCEFGC To be fair, it can be people overreacting, which happens a LOT I noticed with the community. Allthough she would hardly be the first if it turned out she WAS as redicillous as described. Am I the only one who feels a sense of "haven't we been here before?" when it comes to topics like this?

[@nethstar]

​@@leithaziz2716 yes, true. "Haven't we been here before?" is a reality, but also (without trying to sound like a meme) I suppose we should also be questioning "Should we even be here again?" in relation to making a character that is just obviously overtuned.

[@yourbellboy]

amen. 🙏

[@NeoBoneGirl]

I don’t get how Strive coming out can kill your love of fighting games, that’s just absurd. Even as a noted Strive disliker who is someone the devs said they explicitly aren’t making the game for, I just go “Okay, I’ll play Melty, Xrd, and BB instead.”

[@do8152]

Person who wrote for my money probably NEVER had a love for fighting games in the first place. Or their love was super weak.

[@SomniaCE]

This is always the weirdest thing for me in all of nerd culture be it video games, movies, comics etc. People constantly get so personally upset and angry over not liking whatever the new things are and I just don't get it. Why does your happiness have to explicitly come from your continued consumption of this one thing? There are thousands of pieces of media spread out across decades of time yet people choose to attach their identities to specific IP to the point that they'll ruin their own lives just cause they didn't like one particular iteration lol

[@MrLolMachine11]

@@SomniaCE Very well said, this articulated something Ive thought for a while. Its seen in almost every type of media, its pretty crazy

[@loopygordo]

You Deb and baccpack really drew me deeper into strive and I'm absolutely still loving it.

[@chungusumungus4004]

The Project L discourse is gonna be hilarious with the amount of bullshit that will be flying around. There's just gonna be a new wave of people complaining about every archetype other than rushdown, and then they'll complain about the rushdown characters. It happens every game, but Project L will have so much more new blood that just doesn't understand how FGs work yet. I just hope it doesn't affect the game itself.

[@DavimonVtube]

That's gonna fun for awhile

[@locken7948]

God I play league and fighting games a lot so it will be a blast seeing all the same old discussion from both sides under one roof. It is sad that I can't talk about league like in a meta-sense, like who's good atm or best team comp. Or try to understand champion u don't understand rather the beratement. I understand why people complain about "op"ness but it's always taken to the extreme when a certain character or strats is just slightly better than everything else.

[@victornguyen1175]

For Honor's problem in a nutshell. A bunch of non-FGC players on a fighting game

[@TheJackOfFools]

The discourse around Strive did not turn me off of fighting games but it sure turned me off of social media FGC.

[@suplexthetrain]

Same FGC Twitter fucking sucks

[@TonyTheTGR]

You're not wrong, and it's not just fighting games. [laughs in Elden Ring]

[@noctorock]

Reminds me of what Maximilian had to go through with MvCI

[@spidersonic01]

Yeah, I understand critism is important for games, but at the same it's hard to have fun or engage with the community when people are constantly grumpy about one thing or the other.

[@isabelladay2024]

I definitely agree, I’ve been trying to get into BBTAG ever since the rollback got dropped, but the games got a lot of negative stigma around it so it’s not only hard to find people to fight but it’s hard to learn since there isn’t a very active community, and not a lot of easy accessible content, except for Diaphone he’s been awesome for learning the game

[@captainmalice]

BBTAG gets shit for not being a traditional BlazBlue game. Ignore it and find help.

[@megan_tensei]

Mbtl discussion in a nutshell: "Shield is stupid and broken" "Game is dead" "Netcode sucks" "When's sion?"

[@Sorrelhas]

Gurenyaa~

[@megan_tensei]

@@Sorrelhas HOW COULD I FORGET

[@devilmaycrysarockingdontcome]

All while pretending they are expressing an unpopular opinion

[@NeoBoneGirl]

This is also all from people who haven’t played it, too. They watched some Sajam and Jiyuna vids and figured that they’re an expert at the game now

[@ErrantValerie]

"game is dead" is always the dumbest thing for people to say because its like the only reason to say it is if you want to drive people away from playing.

[@mallow2902]

I feel like you can apply this to just video games in general. The "doomer gamer" is such a widespread stereotypical personality at this point, and I guess it's not really unwarranted because crappy stuff does happen in this industry but...I dunno man, games are still fun, and that's what I care about.

[@captainmalice]

I hate seeing "games aren't fun anymore" videos in my recommended

[@TheNobleFive]

@@captainmalice Your mom isn't funny anymore.

[@mallow2902]

@@captainmalice everytime I see one of those I think to myself "Games haven't gotten any less fun, you just lost the taste for them and need a new hobby. At best you just haven't founds something (a game or otherwise) that you like, and at worst you're an addict."

[@frothyslider253]

I would agree, but the problem is the “doomer gamer” is what gets shit done. I wish people didn’t need to shit post on P4A and GGST for those game to get rollback, but they did. At some point you have to just make fun of SF5 and DBZ for still having bad net-code after years.

[@NickJJU]

I wanted to get into fighting games a couple of years ago, and I dabbled in BBCF and GGXrd, which I really liked, but I was still in the phase of learning and didn't feel comfortable playing experienced players online (not to mention the netcode), so I was eagerly awaiting the release of Strive. I was ready to jump into a new game with great online, and one that was apparently aimed at newcomers, which suited me perfectly. As fun as BBCF and GGXrd were, they were kind of overwhelming for me at the time. So I played the Strive open betas, had a blast, and then bought the game on release. And from the early betas until the early days of the game's release, there was so much negativity. I kept wondering, "Am I going to start hating this game?" I thought that once I got to a certain skill level, I'd suddenly start hating all the things that the older players were complaining about. Eventually I realized that I just genuinely enjoy Strive for what it is, but it took a long time. The negativity was definitely an unpleasant part of the release, and I would love to see players embracing new games and newcomers to the genre without dooming so much. I'm stoked for Project L, even though I don't play League and from what I've seen so far, I don't think it's going to be my cup of tea. But if it gets more people, especially my League-loving friends, into fighting games, then that's a positive! A new game releasing isn't going to delete my favourite legacy games from existence, especially now when a lot of these games are getting rollback to keep them alive.

[@Judgementkiryu]

Eating a burger while I watch this, and I must say, it is quite delicious.

[@kadelefox8946]

I remember being so scared of getting into Thems fightin herds cause quite a few people were shitting on it. It was only until I finally was able to see people actually talking about the mechanics and watching people playing tourneys for me to to be confident to play it and openly discuss it

[@kevingriffith6011]

Honestly I think the biggest thing holding TFH back is that it's "the pony game". Personally I don't have a problem with that, game's great, but I know that not only will people not get into it because of the way it looks, they'll actively judge *you* for playing it. Sometimes you've just got to say "hell with what other people think, game's fun Ima play it."

[@leithaziz2716]

@@kevingriffith6011 I feel like you described the Anime, and by extension, the Live Action and Animation debate in a nutshell (of course, it's rarely a black and white topic). A lot of the stuff you might love exists in a genre/artstyle you're unaquainted or uncomfortable with. With Guilty Gear being my favorite fighting games ever, one assumes I'd be into BB as well. Well, not really. At the very least, I don't feel like trying them out because they represent the sort of Anime I'm not into. Once again though, it's not as straightforward as how I describe it.

[@malcovich_games]

Alternatively, some other people will get into TFH *because* of the way it looks... ;) Randoms on social media will hate others for playing a different game anyway. They just will find a reason that the other player's game sucks and is dead. Then proceed to insult their username and profile picture once their argument is destroyed. There is actually an incentive for shitting on other games: the player _might_ play the shitter's favorite game, or the shitter's favorite game is more likely to appear in a major... or so they think.

[@gustavofernandes7814]

That's a problem i used to have when entering discord communities for games i wanted to learn and talk about, not only FGs one. It becomes not only really exhausting at some point, but like you said, it infects you. I don't understand the thrill to be so negative about things all the time, it's really unfortunate that people are like that. As always, good vid Sajam! Love when you upload these type of discussions and points of view.

[@criticalmiss2709]

I've been trying to onboard new players into fighting games ever since I fell in love with them many years ago. In that time I've realized there's two types of criticism, the kind that comes from genuinely wanting something you're invested in to be better, and the kind that's just toxic nonsense. For new players, it's hard to tell the difference between the two and so a lot of nuance gets lost in translation when they hear it, not to mention the environment we enjoy and talk about games in has changed in the last couple decades. I'm guilty of being overly critical of games sometimes, even if I continue to put hundreds of hours into it, I'll probably be even more likely to find something to complain about. I started to realize it was something I should watch a bit later when one of the players I was teaching started to repeat the things he heard me say out of frustration and I genuinely felt like I poisoned the experience for him. As fighting games gain newer and younger players who are starting their FGC journey for the first time in the future, this problem is only going to grow. The one thing that's separated the fighting game community from other games is an identity built around personal responsibility for wins and losses that no other genre I feel can compete with. If there's one way to maintain the spirit of the FGC, I believe it's to focus on that mindset from the very start. Things like emphasizing that fighting games will make you learn how to learn, and can teach you real genuine life lessons about how you approach things like patience, competition, and sportsmanship are all very important things I really think should be a major part of the elevator pitch, before we allow the blame dodging mindsets that permeate other games (like "force 50% winrates"/meta think/etc) get in the way of a new players progress. At least hopefully then, when other influencers inevitably make the jump to talking about whatever fighting game is popular in the future, new players will be better equipped to identify what criticism is genuine, and not just parrot some twitter or twitch take just because a League (for example) player said a thing. Fighting games have taken me over a decade of playing, several attitude adjustments, and thousands of hours of watching/listening/reading about to only begin to have an idea of what I'm talking about. It'd be such a shame for a new player if the next big game they would have gotten into the FGC with doesn't stick because they don't have access to the right people with the right attitude.

[@AegisRick]

It's such a nothing problem to deal with, and really only one from people who like talking about games more than actually playing them. Never once, in my thousands of matches of Tekken was I thinking "Man everyone always calls my character UngaBunga AF and it's making me not like the game" This idea that you have trouble enjoying something because someone else is shit talking it constantly boils down to a lack of self respect. May be harsh, but that's how it is. I can play and talk about the things I love/hate forever and it isn't because there aren't people are out there that vehemently disagree with me. It's because I can immediately filter out who is worth the time and who isn't. Takes literally no effort. I think early XBox live is something every kid should have to go through because otherwise you might start actually taking what these randoms say to heart. Take whatever criticism you want to take, but the idea that you've got to take what everyone says seriously is such a waste of your lifespan.

[@lukadahusky4005]

DBFZ will always hold a special place in my heart. It was the first fighting game that really got me into fighting games and the fgc and was actually the first fighting game that I took somewhat seriously. I still love playing the game (even though admittedly I’m not that good at it lol), but I kinda learned that I just can’t interact with the community that much without getting worn out.

[@lvl27_cubone96]

I watch a ton of your content, and recent FCG stuff - Mostly LK, Kizzie, and a few others, but I also struggle with getting interested in fighting games enough to actually play them much. I enjoy watching them a lot, but putting in the time and effort to actually get decent at a fighting game is something that I'm not really wanting to trudge through. I play tons of other games, and lots of games that reward a steep learning curve - most notably rhythm games. I think the "having fun along the way to mastery" part is what I can't really find much in fighting games, and I think that's a largely personal and emotional response. I can grind a rhythm game chart for a long time just from my own personal motivation. I think that has a lot to do with the staying power of fighting games for the players that really play them a lot - just the personal response to what the game provides to the specific player

[@gungy_vt]

Cutting through the BS to get an interesting discussion might be a fulltime job, but if you try to do that with Dark Souls 2, it's like working overtime and getting paid nothing.

[@darkmatter7713]

cutting through the bs in a discussion is the real fighting game

[@capefeather]

It really surprises me sometimes how offended people get when I say I don't want to play a game anymore for XYZ understandable reasons. Hell, even if I give XYZ understandable reasons and maybe say it makes the game less fun as a result, but I still kind of want to keep playing. Recently I commented that online DBFZ is a nightmare of an experience due to a combination of several factors including the netcode, and this one dude just kept going back and forth with me over and over insisting that I must just be bad at fighting games and if I learned how to block, I'd specifically enjoy DBFZ more. That was really the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I was still willing to play DBFZ before, but I have felt zero desire to do so ever since that exchange.

[@leithaziz2716]

In some situations, it can be simillar to when Leffen covered Tekken 7. His response was mostly negative, but many in the community felt like he was giving the game a bad rep and not the best 1st impressions, and when it comes to that example specifically, a lot of Leffen's "complaints" were more gray and had room for discussion than he cared to admit. I think that's one example where people getting "offended" is a natural response because they feel like Leffen is essentially gaslighting the audience.

[@capefeather]

@@leithaziz2716 I think with Leffen it's a bit different because he complains so much that that's basically what he's known for at this point.

[@rachetmarvel931]

People don't want there Favorite game to get bad rep. That's why they are so defensive when someone doesn't enjoy their favorite game or points out a flaw in it. yeah its kinda childish, but I get that feeling as well especially in the fgc, due to the fgc being filled with a loud minority of doomers.

[@malcovich_games]

@@leithaziz2716 Leffen blocked Fahkumram's high kick for over 20 seconds and couldn't do anything because of its plus frames. He then went on to say the game is bad, instead of crouching and punishing the move. This incident objectively confirmed that Leffen was a scrub.

[@Skybot437]

When disclaimers and explanations of become the entire body of your discussion, it always sucks.

[@radarwarning]

The whole bad mood mentality is basically the whole Rainbow Six Siege player base, but not as much the pro scene. Watching some creators actually have discussions about strategy and such are drowned out by people complaining about how “ubi only cares about the pro scene”. Not fun. Anyway great vid

[@raddave214]

Even though reactionary content gets hits and engagement it’s largely forgettable. I may stumble across it and click on it but I’m much more likely to seek out the content from creators making thoughtful content (yourself, LK, brianF, diaphone, etc). I still think making good content is a better model for long term engagement

[@zenith1040]

I personally like the sheild system, although it could be nerfed. You are locked into shield for a while, even if you just tap the button. You just need to keep changing your options.

[@kongogaming]

6:34 This man is a prophet... the scenario happened, although it was Swiftmaster instead of Ranger.

[@starseeker1829]

It's hard to expect in-depth discussions on twitter when there's a 280 character limit. Plus most people who tweet are looking to vent anyways. If long-form discussion was what everyone wanted we'd be still be typing paragraphs to eachother on neogaf or something. Writing and reading less makes it easier for everyone to engage. Plus throw in the whole "negative news gets more reception than positive news" and the current state of social media feels like it's here to stay. It's just unfortunate that every chamber (positive or negative) feels kinda echo-y "Strive killed my love for fighting games" sounds like a random hyperbolic take to get people chatting, I would not take a statement like that seriously without at longer explanation lol.

[@Nether2342]

Shield RPS is why I dropped melty so fast. I don’t really care about absolutist stuff like whether it’s an objectively good or bad mechanic, I just thought it made the game boring. If other people like it, that’s great for them. I don’t think I even ever talked about it, I just dropped it and moved on.

[@lionheart1607]

It's 2022, having an opinion means you must be destroyed! How dare you hate melty blood with a fiery passion in your heart, you're trying to kill the game aren't you!

[@malcovich_games]

@@lionheart1607 Heh heh. You joke about that, but the consistency of at least one person saying "dead game" on an NLBC Melty Blood stream/video is really something.

[@TheRadioSquare]

Sajam fighting his imaginary strawman is a 0:10 matchup

[@Gonzakoable]

This is why I basically only watch you, LK and Deb

[@yourbellboy]

(don't forget baccpack and Kizzie ;P)

[@bigredradish]

that DNF Duel example is literally just what's going on with kofxv and our boy ralf. people are genuinely dooming over kofxv being an Evo main game and that shit SUCKS. as somebody who genuinely wants more people to try kof and have fun with it seeing people furious that the launch version of a game has strong characters is wack behavior

[@Razdotgg]

Some time ago, I've gone through the BS talk with Type Lumina in my local community. When folks complained about how the game works (Shield Wars, Auto-combos, Moon Skill/Drive), everyone, myself included, fell off of it very hard and I assumed that the game is dead. No one played it for a while (aside casuals online/offline) and then I heard that Frosty Faustings had a lot of entrants for Lumina, and eventually getting an EVO spot when I thought that Under-Night is getting it or another platform fighter that ain't Smash. All in all, I'm glad that Melty is gonna be all right. Moral of the story, don't let online perception be everything and keep cutting through it.

[@gatocochino5594]

Melty at FF was sad, there were so many DQ's that some players left pools without even winning a single match.

[@Sekacnap_]

Before Strive, I was moderately into fighting games (mostly GG) but never followed the FGC outside of lurking the GG subreddit. I played fighting games in a vacuum and had a lot of fun. With Strive, I wanted to fully immerse myself in it, engage with the community, watch content about it, etc. But the grumpy, butthurt discourse surrounding it sucked out all the fun and in some ways soured my entire view of fighting games as a whole and it's been a struggle to want to play them since. I'm trying to not care and just have fun anyway, but it's hard to wash off the stain of outside influences in my brain now that they're there.

[@Salmacis32]

Definitely one of those things that feels like a consequence of the way social media encourages arguments over discussion through engagement. Keyword being "feels" though, I can remember shit like this being an issue since the beginning of time, but it definitely has the air of being worse now due to it. It tends to be less of a factor in face-to-face settings but the current state of affairs is still making that a bit of a challenge.

[@PurpleFreezerPage]

Comedy is a big part of this. People want to be funny - and poking at a beloved games flaws is a good way to do it.

[@LiteTheIronMan]

I wish I could talk about MBTL without seeing comments that boil down to "L + Ratio + one-sided rollback at launch + fuck shield + fuck rapid beat + no sion no buy-on" because there's a great game there that people just clown on constantly because of the early-release kneejerk cycle that literally every game goes through

[@Bulju]

Why are people not allowed to say that shield/moon stuff/rapid beat are bad now? As someone who didn't have problems with the online, those things are the reason I dropped the game. If you're gonna tell people to stop complaining about valid issues then I hope you don't act surprised when the game has less average players than KoF13 mere months after launch.

[@azazeal905]

Nah, I think that's a really disengenuous way to just pretend there aren't legitimate reasons people weren't enjoying TL. Just pretending like it was just people being sheep is why people don't wanna hear you out about the game. Strive went through just as much backlash (and still gets a lot of hate) as TL and people still play it.

[@third-ratedude4234]

@@Bulju no one said that you can't criticise the game, hell, I'm one of those people who drop the game because the shield mechanics. But now it's basically what everyone talks about the game, whenever someone mentions MBTL in anyway, there will be "shield suck + buggy launch + no drip" comment somewhere, there are no discussion about what MBTL does right, or even a discussion about how to improve the shield mechanics. As much as people talked shit about Strive, that same people acknowledge that there are certain aspect Strive do better than the past GG game (i.e Roman cancels) and some actually did discuss how the game could be improved. You won't get that when talking about MBTL online.

[@LiteTheIronMan]

early replies are already missing the point of what I was trying to say or ignoring what sajam was saying. but since people are saying that I'm ignoring the criticism of shield: vnoel and aoko have explicit anti-shield mechanics (delayed setplay that beat shield outright) and other characters can employ things like safejumps or shield OSes that can beat shield. zoners like vlov and ciel are also still very strong despite D+B or D+BC letting you move through projectile pressure at fullscreen. while there are problems with the mechanic, like how effective it is against mids, a lot of the criticism of how shield worked early on in the game's lifespan was from people who didn't want to spend time with the mechanic or exaggerated how strong/centralizing it was to the game's defense. my initial point was that people would rather immediately complain about the game rather than have a nuanced or articulate discussion in the manner I pointed out above. you can have genuine discussions about the game's mechanics and their value without being reductive. I focused on shield in this comment but rapid beat also has value as a way to extend combos or get confirms off stray hits and the only time you'll get an autocombo that you didn't want is if your execution is bad or if you're mashing.

[@azazeal905]

@@LiteTheIronMan no, your point is that those problems aren't real, and that they'd only bother you if they suck- that's not a nuanced discussion, that's just you shutting down any criticism, then acting high and mighty about it.

[@reeidly]

I dunno why I was reminded of this, but you talking about grumpy dbfz players reminded me when Clayton said strive sucked because you could make wakeup dp safe

[@griftgfx]

Are there any games where the dedicated player base ISN'T grumpy?

[@yourbellboy]

Mario Paint?

[@mimipeahes5848]

Honestly no. I’m part of some positive communities, but they’re very curated.

[@Manglet762]

Monster Hunter and Deep Rock Galactic.

[@Zarosguth]

While I don't play fighting games, I do enjoy watching them and I also very much recognize the kind of stuff you're talking about here because it extends to pretty much every other genre of game and every other game series. I personally see it a lot in discussion about Monster Hunter games, especially Rise because that's the newest in the series and it happened a lot as well with World and Iceborne. Like, I fully understand that there will be parts of games that one dislikes. And it's not like I think people shouldn't discuss the things they dislike. But if the things you dislike about a game make you not want to play the game, then don't play it and don't engage with it. If the older games in a series or franchise were better in your opinion, play those. They still exist and you can still play them. I feel this way about certain game series but you won't find me entering discussions for games I don't like in franchises I do like just to drag other people down and ruin their fun with my negative feelings about that game. And if you do enjoy a game even though you have problems with it, you don't have to bring up these problems every time the game is discussed. Sometimes those criticisms aren't relevant to the conversation at hand. Especially if they're a complaint pretty much everybody has, because we all know. There's more we can talk about than just those few points. Also, the video description claims this was streamed August 8th, 2022. Are you a time wizard, Sajam?

[@thebreakdown96]

In general the Fgc community can be really toxic and bitter. And God help you if you read any comments on fightcade. There's just alot of delusional players who actively discourage newer players and in general just alot of arguing about worthless bullshit. It's sad cuz fighting games are so fun but your chances of running into some negative bullshit is so high. It's the exact opposite to it's real life counterpart, if you go to learn actual martial arts, respect and knowing your own limits and gradually pushing past them is key to being successful. If you get penned on a mat and defeated by someone whether they're more experienced than you or not, there's no going "this fucking scrub! he's using those cheating ass strats, Nerf this motherfucker".

[@Lee-fw5bd]

yeah. As someone who's been rocking with SFV and SC6, I can confirm that it's a major bummer having to deal with a community that's always complaining and bringing down the hype. It's definitely not as bad as it has been in past years for either game, Soul Calibur's community specifically has mellowed down a ton, but I just had to stop engaging with the community of both games for a while. I can also say the same thing for Type Lumina and Cross Tag Battle, but it's a lot easier with those games to avoid the hate since the core parts of the community are actually super positive and passionate.

[@mousefire777]

So relatable. SFxT was one of my goddamn favorite fighting games, it’s so sick. But for years, even up to today, if you brought/bring it up people just shit on it

[@superarisu]

I feel like I have to take it even a step further, because I can't stand it when top players are angry and dismissive of a game and then others parrot these opinions like that's all that's needed to make or support an argument: "Well, X says it's trash so f that game lol". I don't want to suggest that top players or influencers should only be positive in public discussion of games because that's BS. We wouldn't have rollback in as many games as we do if we were only focusing on what was good or working in games (for example). My problem is the reductiveness of the negativity and how it's *never* aimed in a meaningful or constructive way, which fits all too well into the social media format. It makes me dislike and not want anything to do with players/streamers who trade on that. Like it or want it or not, when you have a platform people are looking to you for your opinions and your view on subjects, and they make them their own. A little more leadership and advocacy would go a long ways.

[@georgesears934]

MK Fan 1: Here's what I thing is wrong with Baraka's base kit, why I feel that the variation system was particularly detrimental to his gameplay, and what lessons should be taken from this failure in design. MK Fan 2: Fuck Jacqui, fuck Mileena-Stans, and Fuck Breakaway. MK Fan 1: ...I guess? Anyway having the only 2 slot command grab in the game is interesting, but given that it's both a high grab and has no amplified version the risk reward doesn't really justify th- MK Fan 2: Fuck Jacqui, fuck Mileena-Stans, and Fuck Breakaway. (Repeat forever)

[@cylondorado4582]

I won most of my Baraka games by holding block in front of Scorpion players.

[@georgesears934]

@@cylondorado4582 "Surely they would never expect a FOURTH suicidal teleport in a row! It's the perfect plan!"- KL Scorps

[@jeremiahmatos3763]

I know this is some old man yelling at clouds BS but this is what I miss about game discussion primarily happening in forums. Didn't really have to cut though "Buff Nago lol" to get to what you wanted to see. I get why they had to go for sure. Just have to look to Eventhubs and SRK to see the economics of it all isn't a good time. Personally speaking though the decentralization of information into discords and other social media just makes it feel like you're digging through mines to find a decent nugget though.

[@austinwarden9148]

I'm glad I'm not on Twitter because getting angry reading all the stupid takes about fighting games like would have taken years off my life

[@xxBurnsss101]

Could we get a sajam “Sol killed my love for the genre” shirt pls I will cop that in two seconds k thx

[@ZzigZaG00NIN]

Rotten onions with the good still in the middle Just gotta cut to the good part and take it out but it’s surrounded by a lot of yucky

[@lucajordache8226]

I know there were a lot of people that complained about strives "simplicity" when it came out but honestly, when you say everyone was grumpy about strive the first month or two it was mainly just Leffen and his community from my memory. Maybe I'm wrong tho since I don't use Twitter.

[@Ganmorg]

5:52 that was Leon lol. I feel like he took his dislike of Strive particularly hard since so much of his online content was around GG to the point where he was kind of the Xrd guy. Still it is kind of petty to have one game you don't like sap joy from the games you do like

[@absoul112]

Did he say that? I don’t recall hearing it in any of his videos. Was it on his twitter?

[@walterburdzy5408]

Speaking of interesting discussion, I've got a concept to pitch to you Sajam, now hear me out; Sol should have Yang's semblance mechanic from BBTAG. This seems like a solely good change for the game. Thoughts?

[@112clockhead]

Ok bub, I'll take a bite at this, why do you think this is a thing Sol needs and why do think its a good change for the game?

[@walterburdzy5408]

@@112clockhead Because it would be Hella fucking cool.

[@112clockhead]

Ok, let me get this right. You want Sol to have a mode that he gets when he is at low life that extends his normals and gives him more damage because you think it would be cool? You also think this is a good change for the game?

[@rachetmarvel931]

Why would you want to buff Sol, and specifically why do you want to buff sols damage?

[@malcovich_games]

(Strive) Ky already has this but worse (because it costs bar), Dragon Install. Sorry, but Sol doesn't need a meterless version of it right now. You know what would be cool and balanced, if Anji got it instead.

[@kingofgrunder5494]

Something I really don't understand is why people aren't used to this. "This" being, overwhelmingly strong characters or strategies. EVERY SINGLE COMPETITIVE GAME has a dominant *thing*. Whoever's meta in League, what the top decks are in a card game, top tiers in a fighting game, every single game, every single patch, SOMETHING is going to be the best. And even if it's NOT the best, it might be really cheap/annoying/dominant. I really think people need to get over it and accept that strong stuff in video games is always going to exist and getting grouchy that it's strong is pointless. Nerf that character, another one will rise, and another, and another, and another. Keep nerfing the strong stuff until the game is boring, and you stop playing because it's not fun anymore. Do people not realize this? Do you not enjoy having fun stuff in video games? It's not gonna be fun if it's weak. A game won't be fun unless it's fun, and being strong is fun.

[@mr.madhatter5538]

All I want is a fighting game with good netcode, crossplay, low que times, and fun base gameplay. A game with all 4 doesn't exist yet.

[@malcovich_games]

You might never be happy ever. The third criteria seems to imply "only mainstream games". You'll just be part of the vicious cycle where people/you won't play a game because it isn't popular, but how can it be popular without players. The fourth criteria makes me think you already didn't like Fantasy Strike, Power Rangers or Killer Instinct.

[@Manglet762]

Low que times isn't going to happen unless by some miracle, fighting games become mainstream so much that even non-mainstream fighting games get a healthy amount of players. It will sadly take a few more years, I'd probably say close to a Decade of growth until we can even think about such a thing happening. I want it to happen, but at the rate fighting games are growing, I feel it's gonna be really fuckin slow.

[@FM103.5]

streamed Aug. 8, 2022?

[@kriscubero6778]

Yo, wait what? Moste, is this some timetravel thing? I don't remember us being in August yet.

[@thisistherun4015]

Keep on leading by example, king :)

[@DWedge]

Genuinely dropped strive cause of all the hate about it. I wanted to get into it cause of Rollback and finally having a Guilty Gear game to try. Didn't have a character, ended up liking Sol cause when I took my glasses off he had a lot of the moves that I liked from Terry lol. But, because of all the hate around the game as well as just trying to get basic help being a lot more annoying than actual helpful it really killed my drive to play the game. I'm considering coming back cause of Baiken, since she was the first Guilty Gear character I really really thought was dope but since Xrd's online wasn't the best and I couldn't really even try her out cause I just can't sit in the lab and play for hours and hours on end without going online to try stuff.

[@jreut09]

Honestly this is cliche but don't let what people say affect what you enjoy. There are plenty of resources for learning that are great and positive (I would personally recommend romolla aka DEB, she's really positive and gives great advice). If you enjoy the game, thats all that matters.

[@hanticleer1372]

This stream is from the future

[@ZarelidT]

This game is a party game. It will never have a resurgence the same way that communities will bring back games decades after release like melee marvel and skullgirls

[@1Diabolicalgenius]

When marvel vs Capcom 2 was in the arcade nobody used to complain about none of the nonsense you could do in that game... it was just like you're amazing for being able to do the nonsense. Now its just complaining about everything.

[@Payohloh]

It was so weird trying to play strive when everyone was yelling about how much worse it was then xrd. Funny part is that once I finally tried xrd I didn’t even like it as much as strive since the physics/feel are much less polished (just from my first hour tho)

[@leithaziz2716]

I can relate to you on the "feel" aspect which I feel imrpoves with every new GG. If we're talking "polish", I think both are excellent. I always felt "outside the circle" when it comes to my experience with +R. I think it's a fantastic game, but one that always feels "off" to me and I can never understand why. I guess people can come to different conclusions, who knew? Xrd is still my favorite btw.

[@happycamperds9917]

Tekken 7 seems like a game I would really like but I'm hesitant to try it because of some of the discussion around it.

[@NelsonBlakeII]

FGC players need to realize how negative community talk can outright kill a game. SFxT was prematurely killed because the scene was too immature to handle a bad launch.

[@madchal]

I definitely skipped MBTL because of how grumpy everyone was about the netcode and shield. I did think the dripless arc was funny.

[@danobra]

As someone who used to love all kinds of MOBA and today can't stand any of them, I can confirm that one's love for a genre can suddenly die

[@Zen_Corner]

One of the reasons I stopped playing league was that I couldn't watch a stream of it without the streamer complaining some character or system. Even the ones who just played for fun would eventually fall into the negativity. There is so much more to a game than whatever is pissing you off that the moment.

[@dinonadoop]

wow i cant believe that this vid was streamed in august of this year. on a serious note this is such a bad problem found in so many communities and having more people speak out against it is what needs to be done to at least try to shut up the idiots who do nothing to contribute to the conversation

[@VictorHernandez-vc5zo]

Everyone gets too "competitive", aka getting carried by top tiers and shitting on low tiers, rather than just enjoying the game. People get way to into their game to see it from a casual standpoint. I want to go in for like 5 matches and go to bed or maybe play something else. I get it ram and Leo and sol are good, but if everytime I hop on it's one of those characters or just dlc characters, I don't wanna play. It don't gotta be that competitive. Especially strive since there isn't a casual mode. I'm a zato player and I've only fought one zato the entire time I've played strive. Granted I don't even play that much as it is cause the game itself kinda sucks with matchmaking, but still, not a lot of variety.

[@brandonwilbur2146]

I play on West coast and there's a healthy amount of character variety. At worst I'd say there is more nagoriyukis & baikens than anything else. Zato is also really strong and I've fought quite a few. Matchmaking is kinda bad but training mode matchmaking is bearable.

[@punishedbrak4255]

Baikens are the new Ram. Ram is the new Sol. Sol is the new Nago. Surprisingly, I've only met a handful of Leo players after October 2021. Everyone says he's OP but I don't see NEARLY as many Leo's as Baikens or Rams.

[@VictorHernandez-vc5zo]

@@brandonwilbur2146 not gonna lie I think I have my server set to East. i only did that because one night no one was on West at all. I'm not even tryna roast or anything that's just what happened because they actually had players on that night

[@cylondorado4582]

I’ve literally considered dropping all fighting games over the negativity. It’s always the same, hype before the game comes out (until the roster is complete, then whoever wants some character is upset), then the top tiers are complained about, the mechanics of course always need to be fixed, and if they change something the people who liked it before are now the ones complaining.

[@lawfulstorm7469]

August 8?

[@pinkfloyd36123]

the current dbfz meta really is kinda awful tho, it's not a coincidence that so many top players have turned on the game and even viewers are getting sick of watching it when team composition options have been reduced to "labcoat + fusion + whatever" at higher levels of play. the debuff mechanic is legit one of the stupidest things ive seen in a fighting game, i have no clue how anyone thought that was ok. i also don't like the idea (not that you're explicitly saying this) that top players or community members should feel pressure to be positive about their game just to attract new people or facilitate discussion. it's ok to voice your opinions even if they are grumpy and super negative, theres always tons of people who have the opposite point of view out there as well. like sure hook, nitro, noon, sage etc. are negative about the game but there's people like alukard and shaud who are super positive about it, so whatever.

[@Corkyjay]

As someone who play umvc3 and plays "low tiers" people legit use tell me all the time why play Jill when you can play * insert character* like bro it's soo fucking annoying and why I really stopped discussing the game in depth

[@absoul112]

Gotta love the internet, full of people exaggerating damn near everything.

[@absoul112]

For real though, it’s annoying seeing the more absurd versions of my own take or the weird reactions to reasonable takes.

[@jreut09]

Following DBFZ for the last year has been like having bipolar disorder tbh

[@jamesw5713]

Are you talking about SFV? Lol

[@kinginthenorth1437]

The game I watch but don't play is Super Mario Maker 2. Because while it looks amazing, it's not like $500 amazing and it's the only exclusive on the Switch I have any interest in.

[@Mario_bland]

sajam x tastosis when

[@garbageknights]

I watch a lot of starcraft, and will never really play it

[@devilmaycrysarockingdontcome]

Wtching melty anything is a miserable experience simply because everyone loves shitting on it, every merit melty has is ignored and justs get shat on. The amount of negativity surrounding the game made me quit engaging with online discourse for melty blood type lumina.

[@punishedbrak4255]

The name is the worst part

[@yourbellboy]

we found The Nuance. 👇 it's right here 👇

[@7thesage853]

HGG and Dekillsage fans kill me every time they talk. They clearly don’t think for themselves and it’s the wildest shit to me.

[@shay938]

DBFZ would have been perfect if there was a 1v1 option..........and Raditz

[@ThaMxUp]

OMG this is why I can't play Strive anymore, the community had so much BS to spew that the community wasn't even enjoyable to engage in anymore and have you tried fighting game single player......? You ain't missin much...

[@danzelthegreat]

Is this a video complaining about people complaining?