Surface Tutorial: Same Grit, Different Sanding Method!

Saying "well I took it to 2000" isn't quite that simple . . in this video we'll "scratch the surface" of the many different ways too approach the surface of your bowling ball!
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[@DaJesta088]

I have an Innovative spinner. It's paid for itself 5x over already and still going like a champ.

[@joecerar9303]

Hi Luke, I've done extensive testing with sandpaper, scotch brite pads, abralon, siaair and tru cut pads over the last 10 years or so. I also have a laser scanner in my pro shop to accurately determine the finished grit. Plus for years I wrote the ball reviews for the Bowlers Journal's No Holes Barred column, so I know coverstocks quite well. In addition, my pro shop, Bowlers Pro Shop of Milwaukee has been in business since 1973, and we love to learn! A typical resin ball sanded with a 2000 pad will read 2800-3200 using a new abralon pad dry and 3400 to 3800 wet. A new tru cut pad will read 1900 to 2200 and 2300 to 2600 wet. Remember, balls had a specific hardness which contributes to a higher reading in most cases. If you have any questions feel free to ask.

[@LukeRosdahl]

Ah cool, that's great info!! I might hit you up if I do more stuff like this . .

[@mizorsmith8507]

So looking at your stats if I wanted to take my ball back to 2000 grit, looks like a dry sanding with a 1000 grit pad would get me closest?

[@LukeRosdahl]

@Mizor, really depends on what you're after. I'd wet sand with a 1000 pad to get to a true 2000 grit, but if you're trying to get the effect of a 2000 pad and that's what the ball came at, then I'd use a 2000 pad. Ultimately the effect or result of the pad you're using is what you're after.

[@danielweisman6764]

Big brain. I wish I could work at pro shop and learn and have it actually pay enough to support a family .

[@matthewb.cheeley9612]

Thank you for your time and energy to put out informational videos. I bowled a 300 last week with a Phaze 3 and i can tell you that your videos helped me decide which ball to use in the 2nd and 3rd games of league. I am sure you dont get to much gratitude and probably a lot of attitude but THANK YOU!!!

[@LukeRosdahl]

SWEEET! That's what it's all about!

[@nordattack]

Very nice video Luke. My preferred method is to hand wet swirl sand the ball. Ball is placed in cup with holes facing up. Pad is wet sufficiently to provide easy movement on the ball. Swirl the pad (create the classic sanding circle) over the side of the ball on one small segment. I do 6 full pressure swirls. Then turn the ball a small amount and swirl that part and so on until the ball has turned all the way around like an hour hand moving around the face of a clock. Now turn ball so holes are facing to the side and repeat. Now turn ball so holes are facing down and repeat. Done. Whole surface of ball has been swirl sanded to the chosen grit. Wipe ball down with a paper towel and then wipe it down with a cleaner and you are done. Swirl sanding produces the most uniform surface a ball can have and using enough water allows you to wash the pad out and use it many times without it being clogged.

[@kengaida3182]

Love the holiday shirt!!!

[@hablep]

I cut a notch out of the pad after I use it. 3 notches and it’s thrown away

[@CDownes1982]

Not to mention that different pad companies numbers can mean different things. For example, most (abralon and saair) refer to the number grit of the pad, not the value it leaves on the ball. CtD trucut pads refer to the number left on the ball, not the grit of the pad.

[@bowlingxp8345]

Correct. You can check tests with a laser scanner on these here : kzbin.info/door/1cTYcf69xsgiEynuk0qdIw

[@onefrombills]

Good Stuff Luke

[@mpawli10]

And here it is!!

[@690MBCOMMANDO]

Cool T-Shirt!

[@arandomcommenter7051]

Pro tip big brain idea here for all you twiggy arm people like myself You can put the ball on the spinner and still sand it by hand without turning on the machine. If you don’t have a spinner, use a ball cup. 1) you’re going to get a more consistent finish because you can visually portion the sides better like Luke was explaining with the 4/6 sides thing and 2) if you have the spinner you can manually spin it and let the weight sit on the machine/cup rather than wear yourself out doing it.

[@LukeRosdahl]

Lol yes, it's just that most of the time you don't have a spinner at the bowling alley, BUT yes definitely, if I have a spinner to use, it's going on the spinner

[@StefW666]

I just use my knees, while sitting down

[@douglasbuck8986]

WHEN DOING THIS STUFF - I KEEP A BALL STATE LOG - WHERE I BOWLED, THE SURFACE CONDITION (GRIT AND POLISH CONDITION) OF THE BALLS I USED THERE - RESULTS EVENTUALLY YOU WILL FIND A SWEET SPOT

[@aleffel9668]

If you’re a serious bowler, and haven’t gotten into CTD trucut sanding pads yet you’re missing out. Can do everything by hand and they last 10x longer than abralon pads

[@LukeRosdahl]

Yeah for doing stuff by hand, the trucuts are really good.

[@BigJim5754]

thanx

[@jessegriffith6401]

It would be even better to see the difference on the lane after these 2 different methods of sanding. I'm betting the new dry sand will be a lot earlier than the wet "polished" off the spinner.

[@LukeRosdahl]

Yeah, I mean surface is pretty predictable, there aren't really any nuances to it like cover formulas. Duller surface will be earlier and smoother every time.

[@jessegriffith6401]

@@LukeRosdahl Right, but my point is that both these could be considered a "2000 finish"

[@LukeRosdahl]

@@jessegriffith6401 Yeah definitely, but after just seeing this video, I'd think people would understand there's going to be a difference. Surface is visible, and part of this video is trying to get people to let go of the math and use some common sense. When you're using a 2000 pad, you're trying to get to the result the pad gets you, not trying to get it to 2000 grit specifically, because if you usually use a 2000 pad because you like the result, then it doesn't matter what the actual number is. The resulting ball reaction isn't really the point of the video is I guess what I'm trying to say, and I don't think I need to go get ball reaction to prove that the surfaces are different. Maybe the amount of difference would be interesting to see, but again, that's pretty visible up front.

[@homegrilladvantage]

I would LOVE to know the difference in lane reaction using the 2 methods

[@LukeRosdahl]

Surface is usually pretty predictable, so the duller version would just be a bit earlier and smoother really, couple boards stronger

[@grantpickard7754]

Luke! What ball closest compares to the Haywire in the catalog right now?? Love the motion it gives me but it’s day to sit on my shelf forever is slowly approaching...

[@LukeRosdahl]

I think the Axiom is really similar, same shape, just a bit stronger

[@igoramaral95]

Ooh so chad actually DOES sand by hand every single ball that comes out of the storm facilities hahahahah Jokes aside, I'm loving the informative videos Luke! Keep them up

[@mrmidnight32]

Is there a difference in reaction between the 2 same grits? Or do they still react the same, just the only difference is the finish? I don’t have a spinner and will probably have to do it by hand. I kinda felt like this video was a bit of a “I prefer not to hand polish” video because it’s not the same…. Or should you just add water for the same sheen effect?

[@LukeRosdahl]

Yes, and that's kind of the point, the duller one is going to be earlier, stronger, and smoother, that's the whole idea behind surface . . The point was that the sanding method can affect the final result, just saying oh this ball is at 2000 may not mean a lot. What I prefer has nothing to do with it, I was pointing out again the difference in methods. Hand sanding with a dry pad is going to get the ball duller and not get quite as deep as doing it on a spinner with water, it's just showing that it's something to take into consideration.

[@colleenthomas353]

You can make your own spinner by using a 7" angle grinder-Take off the pad and replace it with a stainless steel bowl (drill the right size hole in the bottom and reuse the pad nut) from a dollar type store and place it in a vice by the handle (put some weight on the handle). the grinder is variable speed so set it to what you want. cheap and works great and you can still use the angle grinder for it's intended purpose when needed!

[@LukeRosdahl]

Yup! The spinners aren't too expensive, but do take up some space.

[@josh-cq3ju]

When are you making to top balls of 2020 video?

[@LukeRosdahl]

Tonight!! The fundraiser stream is also the 2020 recap stream

[@timothylindley1530]

Luke thanks for all vids man! Question: I've 2 Idol Pearl's one pound apart. They both came with a 1500 grit finish then polished at the factory. What is the final finish on these 2 balls. I have about 50 games on each and would like to keep them where they are at. I've have a spinner but I'm afraid to touch them until I learn more. I'm getting the feeling that both balls are starting to take off on me a little early. Any advice from anyone is appreciated.

[@LukeRosdahl]

Well the thing about surface is that you can always change it. I used to be worried about touching the surface of my stuff too, but they're going to find the same zone as you throw them after a few games anyway, they'll get lane shined or the surface will be changed by throwing them, so no matter what surface you put on them, they'll eventually find the same place after 10 games or so. All you should really have to do is use a bit of polish to get that gloss back on them, about 15 seconds per side on the spinner and you'll be fine!

[@timothylindley1530]

@@LukeRosdahl thanks for the reply. I shall proceed with "cautious confidence " if there is such a state of mind. Ok understood, I didn't realize that the coverstock would recover that quickly. Obviously I would've found out after a few games. Thanks again

[@bowlingxp8345]

@@timothylindley1530 When a ball is polished by the factory, it is usually between 5000-5500. When you use the ball, after some games , it will reach the "lane shine" level of...shine...which seems to be around 4500-4800. So you MIGHT see a little tiny bit of less length compared to factory polish. So as Luke said, you can use some polish on the spinner. But since it is going to be already shiny, i think 15 seconds will not be enough to go from 4500-4700 to say 5300. You may need a bit more time and a bit more polish. Trial and error.

[@timothylindley1530]

@@bowlingxp8345 thanks XP that sews up any loose ends that I had. Between you and Luke I can now sand and polish with confidence lol

[@bowlingxp8345]

@@timothylindley1530 That's the spirit ! :)

[@jeramiescott3364]

heard Luke made a new video

[@mig3872]

One more question. I notice you don't use safety mits. If I get a spinner are they pretty safe to use for someone who has never used one? Looks simple but also powerful machine.

[@LukeRosdahl]

Oh yeah, it's only like 1/3 horsepower. You have to learn how to hold the pads and towels or it can grab and throw those, but that's about the worst that's going to happen

[@dejabowler873]

The tour reps or use to it like it's probably muscle memory

[@Kawboy65]

I call it "2000 wet" vs. "2000 dry", knowing that wet is more of a sheen and dry is duller. One of my favorite surfaces is "worn light grey Scotchbrite pad wet". 😂

[@bowlingxp8345]

Hi you can check this (and other ones) video of tests on the scotch brite pads here : kzbin.info/www/bejne/f4bElaGbgLFrgac

[@brianmercure9558]

Luke, I noticed you only gave one squirt of water on each of the four passes. Is it possible to use too much water?

[@LukeRosdahl]

Not really, only thing is if you use too much, the spinner starts throwing it everywhere and leaving water spots on stuff

[@heliflyer999]

@@LukeRosdahl Put it in a plastic bin, because you need more water, for sure!!

[@flippperboy]

How do you control splatter from the ball spinner?, and with all those balls you get at Storm why do you need ball plug? You still replug balls?

[@LukeRosdahl]

With the speed of the spinner and not adding a ton of water, I don’t actually get splatter. With me going lefty, I’m plugging and redrilling a lot of righty balls either for me lefty or for my wife, plus if I have something I don’t care for, I’ll plug and redrill with a different layout so I can play around a little instead of trying new layouts on something fresh

[@flippperboy]

@@LukeRosdahl awesome shop. Which has more clout for shape/lane motion in your opinion? Layout or ball surface?

[@jeremiegrund]

@@flippperboy not to jump on Luke’s toes but it all plays a part. I would say the surface has a bigger overall impact than the layout. Layout is that extra degree of tuning.

[@davidchamberlain5146]

When changing the surface by hand is there a reason you didn't place the ball in a ball cup then use the pad? The way you did it seems more difficult but your way may be advantageous v. putting it in a ball cup.

[@LukeRosdahl]

Yeah it’s just easier to do it like toweling the ball off than putting it in a cup and scrubbing it, the way I did it is easier to control the consistency of the finish

[@davidchamberlain5146]

@@LukeRosdahl thank you for taking the time to respond. I appreciate the work you put into your channel and have learned a lot by watching.

[@heliflyer999]

@@LukeRosdahl Actually, using a ball cup will make the sanding pressure more consistent. IMHO, I think you should use more water when wet-sanding. The pad does not look like it hit the ball in the middle where the water was, and abralon pads, I've found, do not move the residue into the pad, away from the surface.

[@coopergates9680]

How much variation have you noticed across brands of pads or paper? e.g. 2K grit from X goes longer and flips harder than 3K grit of Y

[@odellus]

if they say it's 2000 grit it's 2000 grit, doesn't matter the brand. what you described would never happen. what you will see is a difference in longevity and cutting power based on the abrasive used, i.e. abralon pads use silicon carbide while siaair pads use aluminum oxide. silicon carbide cuts better than aluminum oxide (less time needed to get the specified grit) but because of that, the abrasive wears faster. aluminum oxide doesn't cut as well, but it lasts longer.

[@LukeRosdahl]

Lol what he said. I haven’t really use anything but abralon so I can’t say. I just know what pad and what age of pad gets me to where I want to be

[@coopergates9680]

@@odellus 2,000 particles per inch doesn't guaratee what size the particles are, only a maximum size they could be. If they are sparsely positioned relative to their size, they will leave a smoother finish on the ball (plateaus as opposed to peaks or teeth).

[@odellus]

@@coopergates9680 imagine asking a really dumb question, getting a patient, informative, and significantly more detailed response than you deserve, and then responding by trying to argue and saying even more dumb shit. jesus christ.

[@exesemas]

@@odellus I think he means the number grit on the pad, not the real result.

[@TonySnider69]

Does it make a mess using a ball spinner withou a cabinet? I thought about getting one but, thought a cabinet was needed to keep the mess contained.

[@douglasbuck8986]

Stick a cardboard box around it on 3 sides - use the 4th side to make a higher wall where the moisture will sling off.....

[@LukeRosdahl]

If you don’t use too much water it’s not an issue, plus the speed of this spinner makes it less of an issue

[@theinsaneshecklador6598]

I have a deep utility sink in my garage that I place my spinner in when I use it so I might not be the right guy to comment but, I've seen other people use a cheap plastic storage tote to keep their spinner and pads/polish in. They usually have handles so it should be easy to store everything away in a closet or shelf or where ever when not in use.

[@heliflyer999]

@@douglasbuck8986 I used a large, gray storage bin,cut out the bottom, and put it on a lower platform. Catches everything, because the droplets come off all the way around.

[@TonySnider69]

@Luke Have you had experience with the sanding system that uses a drill?

[@LukeRosdahl]

I haven't used it yet but it's basically a portable spinner, looks like a great idea.

[@bowlingxp8345]

I used it. The problem is that when the cup/drill combo is on the side it can't spin the ball well, and when you go up to the top of the ball it spins it quite fast. So i don't think it produces an even surface.

[@TonySnider69]

If that is the case. I wonder if you can use a regular ball cup. Then rotate it yourself as if you were doing by hand.

[@bowlingxp8345]

@@TonySnider69 Which ball cup are you referring to? I used on of the popular ones like this one : cdn.webshopapp.com/shops/70265/files/118873322/pyb-bowlingkugel-surface-set.jpg . But how would you rotate it yourself? It attaches to the portable drill and the drill spins it.

[@TonySnider69]

I mean a regular ball cup. Hold the ball with one hand and sand with the other.

[@mig3872]

Sorry I got confused. Could you use the dry pad with spinner if you want to?

[@LukeRosdahl]

You could, but it gets really hot

[@mig3872]

Thanks. So the only way to get dull surface is to do it by hand? And I only use spinner for shiny?

[@LukeRosdahl]

@@mig3872 No you can still get it dull on the spinner or a resurfacing machine using water, just by hand will create a slightly rougher surface, but it doesn't get as deep or as thorough.

[@rhdrivebug581]

Magic eraser is 3000 grit and it gives my phaze 2 the factory look again

[@iamasooner86]

How do you resurface with that?

[@rhdrivebug581]

@@iamasooner86 ball spinner and some water

[@dillonthompson5589]

@@iamasooner86 scotch brite pad or that is pretty good. Cleans ball good but will sand it a lot.

[@scottt7586]

Instead of using water, have you tried using urine the acidity in my own urine is very high and leaves the ball very dull.

[@dejabowler873]

Do you use ovals or lifts for your grips

[@LukeRosdahl]

Quad Classic Ice from Turbo, the oval side. Most comfy and durable grips I’ve ever used!

[@heliflyer999]

@@LukeRosdahl I like the same brand, as well as VISE, but use the lift side. To each his own, a matter of preference. Both are comfortable(the clear type).

[@jeffreyfoster8413]

What about using a dry pad with a spinner?

[@LukeRosdahl]

Yeah that’s gonna be different too

[@heliflyer999]

Not a good idea, as the residue will fly everywhere, and cut much quicker. A few seconds will overdo it!

[@BigDJeff]

What do I do if I want the hook back but I want to keep my ball shiny?

[@LukeRosdahl]

Oil extraction would be the way to go, if the ball just isn’t hooking or is too lazy, probably just has too much oil in it, so see if you can go get it detoxed somewhere

[@heliflyer999]

@@LukeRosdahl You forgot to ask how old the ball is and when it was last resurfaced...may just need a resurfacing. Using a good ball cleaner will reduce the oil absorption, and wiping the ball between frames, then cleaning well after matches will reduce the oil absorption. Use CTD Life After Death after a match every time.

[@aydengianes2515]

Get the same bowling ball

[@etarnkufecin]

Is it possible to do a video that demonstrates the terms used in a lot of ball review videos. "Reads the mids", "react early", "control backend". I understand the parts of the lane, but balls tend to look like they go straight and then hook, never see much of a difference except for how much it hooks.

[@LukeRosdahl]

Not really, because it’s easier to feel than see on a video. The best that can be done is for one of the companies to use SPECTO in a controlled environment. Storm has done a few videos on this, but basically hook and backend sell bowling balls, so that’s most of what you’re going to see in videos. The things you can pay attention to that will help you “see” these things better are how smooth or sharp the balls react to friction, and how far left or right the reviewer has to get due to either how much or how early the ball hooks. A lot of it is personal experience though and understanding yourself what these things feel like on the lane. If they say a ball reads the mids well, you should be able to see the ball visibly begin to rev up or almost gain momentum earlier. If they say it reacts early, they’ll have a couple shots hook too much and will have to move inside to help get the ball down the lane. If a ball controls the backend well, generally that means it doesn’t really take off on the backend. It will give them room on the lane, and generally be smoother and “rounder” down lane. They’re smaller nuances that you have to watch very closely for, and be very focused on the ball and watch exactly what it’s doing all the way down the lane. Most people will just look at where the reviewer is standing and what the ball does on the backend and that won’t help you put together a picture of all these smaller nuances that really define reaction a lot more. It’s tough on video though because I’ll go out and get footage, write the review, only to find out that it doesn’t quite look the same on video as it felt while throwing it.

[@wayneguess7946]

You should have hit it again on the spinner with water, to see if it shined back up?

[@LukeRosdahl]

I think the video proves it would have. I suppose I could have for the heck of it, but any time you repeat the same step again, it'll create a smoother surface. Like if you go 1000-3000, and then use the 3000 pad again, it'll end up smoother. Length or duration of use of the pad will continue to make it smoother too. Sometimes people want the bigger grit of 1000, and just use another pad lightly to "knock the dust off," and sometimes people just use 1000 to freshen the cover up but ultimately want something smoother. All kinds of different things you can do to get different results using different techniques.

[@joshburnette9128]

Should you true grit sanding pads

[@LukeRosdahl]

The actual grit doesn't matter, it's the result you get with the pads you use . . people are too fixated on the actual number of the surface. If I use a 2000 grit Abralon pad and actually get 3000, but got the result I wanted out of using that pad, it really doesn't matter.

[@heliflyer999]

@@LukeRosdahl Sorry, Luke. That doesn't make sense. If you use a pad that you 'thought' was a 2000 grit pad, and got a 3000 grit surface, but the next 2000 grit pad is a 2000, you will not be able to repeat what you just thought you had on the previous surface. What do you do then, experiment? The idea is to repeat the surface properly every time to get the performance you are expecting to have when finished.

[@dillonthompson5589]

You kinda just recreated the previous belmo ball but your off by 1000 grit lol

[@amonacoamonaco]

i think it’s 2 things. and old pad vs a new one and dry vs wet.

[@natehenderson341]

How many horsepower is your spinner?

[@LukeRosdahl]

Not sure actually, I think it’s the 1/3rd

[@natehenderson341]

@@LukeRosdahl just bought a press last week so I am looking at getting one. I’m not sure can you make plug cut down look right without a spinner or not. Do you think it’s a necessary with plug I’ve only ever fixed plug with a spinner

[@LukeRosdahl]

Yeah you really need a spinner. Usually I cut the plug, then shave smooth with a bevel knife, then finish on a spinner, that usually gets the plug smooth without too much sanding

[@heliflyer999]

@@LukeRosdahl You don't use a plug cutter in the drill press?

[@webmoss195]

How about another comparison with the Cook Sphere machine?

[@ShimWreckerEnterprises]

You buying it for him to test?

[@webmoss195]

@@ShimWreckerEnterprises how about you lending him the machine?

[@ShimWreckerEnterprises]

@@webmoss195 1) I don't own one 2) not my idea

[@webmoss195]

@@ShimWreckerEnterprises oh, nevermind. I mistakenly associated you with Big Bowling.

[@LukeRosdahl]

. . but even then, why would Big Bowling loan me a machine to make videos for Storm balls?

[@Analynix]

Sanding bowling balls without sanding cab will not have consistent results. Hands have hills and valleys causing different grits.

[@LukeRosdahl]

If you hold your hand in the same place, sure, but moving your hand around while sanding makes sure that the entire ball sees the "heel" of your hand which is what you really should be sanding with, or which is where the focal point should be. A cab would be more consistent though because even with a consistent part of your hand, pressure applied can change. However, that's really nitpicking, or getting into minutia that matters on paper but not really in actuality.

[@MrPottsTeaching]

Get a CTD pad... The number on tha pad is the number on tha ball

[@exesemas]

Not exactly, but closer than Abralon for sure.

[@johnfoster1979]

And I’ve been doing it wrong the whole time

[@LukeRosdahl]

There’s really no wrong way to do it, this is what trips people up and obviously there’s a lot of nonsense in the comments, but as long as you get it to the surface/reaction you want, it’s right . .

[@cleswag2419]

2000 is what u did last ..or u say I took an old wet 2000 pad on spinner and got like 4000 surface not ya it’s 2000 cuz I took an old 2000 pad (which is really probably 3200) and water on spinner..2000 is 2000 cuz it’s on the ball the surface on the ball is what matters not what pad u used to get your surface ..u were right yourself not what this dude said

[@LukeRosdahl]

Well but the thing is that you don’t know exactly what surface is on the ball without using a scanner to find out, if I use an old pad on a spinner with water and say it makes the ball do this and then someone else uses a new pad by hand, they’re going to get a different result than I did, that’s what I was complaining about, and that’s what he suggested to show. AND I might add, with all the “discussion” in the comments here, I was completely right about people taking something that’s not that big of a deal and getting bent about it . . no matter what I show in a video or how in depth I talk about it, there’s always going to be those people that take issue with it just so they can sound smart, like y’all can argue the details, I’m gonna take my subpar used abralon pad, get the result I want, and strike with it.

[@cleswag2419]

@@LukeRosdahl but a ten times used 3000 pad is gonna be around same as a 20 times used 2000 pad tho 😆 so why would u say my surface is a 23 times used 2000 pad wet on spinner 🤷🏻‍♂️oh well who cares I do what I do it works I’m sure u do too and don’t care what anyone thinks as I’m sure u don’t either

[@exesemas]

@@cleswag2419 how do you know that? You are just guessing aren't you?

[@cleswag2419]

@@exesemas u think I did a test ?? All used pads lose surface grit so actually no that’s not a guess ..so unless u count how many times they are used ?? But yes what I said really happens u can get a 2000 pad and a 4000 pad to cut the exact same depending on their life

[@exesemas]

@@cleswag2419 You mentioned specific numbers, that is why i asked if you did a test, or it was just your impression. (the "guess" part was obviously not for whether pads wear out, everyone knows they do).

[@timklotz6855]

If you used Tru Cut pads, then you would have a true 2000 Grit. That 2000 grit Abralon isn’t a true 2000 grit. Cmon Luke ....

[@dougprw1110]

That's what Tru Cut wants you to believe. As long as you get the surface you want, who cares?

[@LukeRosdahl]

It really doesn’t matter though, all that matters is the result you know you’re getting from that pad. Even if my 2k abralon pad ends up at 3k, all I’m after is the result I know I’m getting out of that specific pad with that specific method. The finish I got by hand looks like what stuff that comes at 2k looks like out of the box. The point was that it looked like a truer surface by hand than on the spinner with water.

[@timklotz6855]

@@dougprw1110 i get what your saying, but what surface do you want ? 2000? 1500? You have to guess what your getting done with abralon , with TryCut pads, you know for sure.

[@timklotz6855]

@@LukeRosdahl but with abralon, the result you get isn’t the same every time .

[@LukeRosdahl]

Well but that’s the point, pad plus method equals result, the actual number doesn’t matter. Abralon pads as they age can be useful too, just like balls as they age. Yes tru cuts are better pads, I’m just used to abralon and for the price I get them for, I’m not terribly concerned about it. I get your point though