Suspension Part 1: Design

[@poopipeboy3033]

As a mechanical engineering grad in Brisbane I gotta say this channel is awesome. I do a lot of Solidworks and programming myself so I can testify that this project would be a serious undertaking.

[@thomsenmotorsport7201]

Thanks, certainly was.

[@aryanmishra5591]

PooPipeBoy from where did you learn soldioworks. I know the basics but often struggle to make something for any college project. And I can't seem to find any good tutorials which focus on just that.

[@walterwhite28]

@@aryanmishra5591 There are many resources on youtube and on solidworks forum. Also, try practicing for making models from model mania. Also, make assemblies out of parts you have created. I am an Indian too, so I know how bad the engg system is. We were never properly taught solidworks and autocad. And I am from a tier 1 college. So, don't depend on the college as they are just factories mass producing engineers.

[@bubbybumble616]

I'm a game developer who knows nothing about cars watching this so I can make a more realistic chassis than 4 wheels and 4 springs. I really appreciate this video!

[@VictorDima]

I've never even seen a Vee in person, but I love your series so far. Looking forward to more videos, you have a great way of explaining and illustrating everything. Can't wait too see it finished (and racing!) Good luck!

[@thomsenmotorsport7201]

Thanks for the feedback!

[@RacerX-124]

It's great of you to share your processes like you have. Excellent series, I hope you keep it up.

[@k4yd33yeah]

So this guy used Excel as MatLab? I can't even use Excel as Excel why are people so SMART! Amazing Video!!

[@lucasandri5462]

Your videos are really really interesting, I’m currently studying vehicle engineering with a focus on the ICE and my biggest concern is that I know when I’ll finish the studies that I probably won’t be able to do a single thing or most things you’ve done in this series which is a big problem. I’ve bought some books on vehicle dynamics and I’m planning to have a look at them by myself but without some practical examples it’ll probably be tough.

[@groupbmotors]

i have a vintage 1964 vee, light years apart in chassis and suspension design than your beast. Love the work!

[@lachy294]

Fantastic job mate, love seeing just what can be done to a Vee with the right tools and knowledge to get all the minor details spot on. Definitely been taking notes to see what can be done to my 1200 here in WA. Hopefully will get to see it at a nationals event in the future!

[@thomsenmotorsport7201]

Thanks. I'm sure there's more that can be done, I did everything on this car in such a short time that I wasn't able to get everything perfect, testing and ultimately competition will tell me whether I did a good job or not. I also really skimmed through a lot of things in this video, it's hard to make excel spreadsheets interesting! If you're interested in reading more the best place to start is a book called Race Car Vehicle Dynamics by Milliken - it's massive but is an incredible resource.

[@coscorrodrift]

holy shit dude you're smart as fuck this is DOPE, that whole optimization process is great

[@Xayuap]

that suspension is madness

[@jesusreignonhigh6732]

Can you upload some of the calculations u've made? I'd like to use this as a reference someday. Thanks.

[@slep5039]

Love the video - I won't make one of these, but I want to build my own car some day, and I own a Beetle!

[@ernestot.8482]

Very nice Video, very well explained! Thumbs up!

[@samiuzzamansami9315]

if i have a chasis of how will i start assembling the suspension system in it

[@miljenkopretkovic8347]

Hi, I'm very happy for you following your dream and enjoying hard work of building a vehicle and racing it. You've mentioned the lead weights in this video and I've watched the video where you damaged the suspension. Have you consider to make more robust suspension instead adding weights? At least, less weights. Just enough to tune weight distribution.

[@thomsenmotorsport7201]

Thanks. I did end up making the push and tie rods stronger by using solid bar instead of tube with welded in ends. Much simpler to manufacture. It didn't end up adding much weight and they are so much simpler to manufacture.

[@Ckcdillpickle]

Wow that spreadsheet is amazing work. I'm in the process of designing my own car, haven't gotten past the body yet as I'm still figuring out how to take each piece and seperate it as it's own part . Currently use inventor, probably not the best tool. And I'm not sure how a lot of thing will even be done

[@thomsenmotorsport7201]

I use inventor sometimes as well for my work, it's as powerful as Solidworks (maybe more so) but not so nice to use in my opinion. Like anything it just takes practice.

[@mototech3903]

Lots of engineering skills♥️♥️

[@Ambrosemcc]

what size rod ends did you use on the rear leading arms? did you select them based on what has been done before? I believe your set up will put them in bending which they just aren't well suited to.

[@thomsenmotorsport7201]

Ambrosemcc That's true, it's not ideal for the rod end. It's been done a lot in Formula Vee though and doesn't typically have issues unless the car has a collision. I used the same size (well metric equivalent) to what was on the wreck I bought, which had an almost identical setup. It gave me the freedom to effectively bend the leading arms around the rear of the gearbox, to improve how it was mounted there - a bit of a compromise.

[@Ambrosemcc]

Yeah fair enough. I have loved watching this series. The vehicle dynamics calculations you have done seem very impressive. I look forward to seeing how it plays out on the track.

[@yuzhang3243]

Hi, very informative video. At 1:57, it might just be a typo mistake on the torsion coefficient (stiffness) k. Should it be k = GJ/L? I might be wrong though.

[@thomsenmotorsport7201]

+Yu Zhang it's possible I made a mistake when making the video, thanks for pointing it out. I'll double check when I'm back home.

[@cardashock]

How to find the roll center with this type of front suspension?

[@domenicozagari2443]

On the ww if You lower the back too much it drains the oil from the wheel bearing.

[@jockellis]

Are Australian FV rules same as those in THE USA? Neither Your cad drawn wheels or brakes look like Herbie’s. Im really impressed with your thoroughness.

[@thomsenmotorsport7201]

I don't believe they are the same. The brakes use an aftermarket disk brake conversion kit. The wheels are a racing component, not road wheels. Thanks for the feedback.

[@jockellis]

ThomsenMotorsport Does it use a 40 HP engine? Your car looks like overkill for such a motor and does not seem to be in keeping with inexpensive racing that FV started out to be. You have what appears to be a two man Formula 1 operation.

[@thomsenmotorsport7201]

It has ~70hp at the wheels. I agree it is not necessarily in the spirit of the rules, but neither is the competition. To be fair as well, this car wasn't that expensive for me, though it did cost me a lot of time.

[@jockellis]

ThomsenMotorsport Will you be selling copies. Could it accept other engines? Someday they may be saying Simon is the new Colin.

[@thomsenmotorsport7201]

Yeah I'll get the whole thing out there, hopefully sooner than later. I've released a lot of the design already through Patreon.

[@szaka9395]

I dont think it got any use in normal cars with engine at front. Im about to rebuild old rx7 but not sure if i want to go "stock" suspension or build my own frame :)

[@KevinNguyen-zn4vv]

Looks beautiful. Would it be possible to design a similar suspension setup on a R53?

[@AKracecars]

Great vid and even better design and fabrication skills! I am attempting to construct a racing car in solidworks as well. Being that it is a circle track car, we have to run some extreme camber angles to maintain tire compliance. With the tires being very oddly deflected (statically and dynamically), how would you go about beginning to model this in solidworks? I want to get the initial wheel placement set first, and build from there. I too don't have any tire data, but I do have a car already built to measure off of. I was thinking, I could measure from the ground to the bottom of the rim on both sides (with camber that measurement will be different cause the rim is angled) then fix the rims to the ground plane at those heights, and build from there? Well then that wouldn't allow me to turn the wheels without over defining the assembly. What do you think? How did you do this?

[@thomsenmotorsport7201]

Thanks. There are a few ways you could do this, what I'd recommend is drawing your tyres/rims and creating a point in the part which is your "wheel center". When you create your assembly create a mate with a set distance of the rolling radius between the wheel center and the ground plane. Technically your rolling radius will change with camber but it should be close enough for the purpose of modelling it. This way the wheel still has five degrees of freedom so you shouldn't have a problem with it over defining your assembly.

[@AKracecars]

Thanks mate! Ill give it a try

[@armingarmrudi]

Great Video 😉

[@allandriver2066]

Great tutorial.

[@mohitjoc25]

Make more vedios on chasis and suspensions

[@camerone397]

This is all too intelligent for me

[@justin60222]

A mechanical engineering degree and lots of elbow grease would certainly help

[@rabidmercinary]

@thomsenmotorsport, I am really interested in the analysis you did on the suspension, particularly what you applied with the rotational matrix, and response to an impulse signal. Seemed like control theory which I am interested in as an ME! Any reference you could point me towards for more info on that for vehicle suspension?? I really appreciate these videos!

[@thomsenmotorsport7201]

Best place to start is a book called Race Car Vehicle Dynamics. It's big but covers pretty much everything you might need to know.

[@brujulatropical]

Hi! Thanks for the vídeos. Im form Uruguay so sorry for my english. I wanted yo ask you why did you choose leading arms instead of trailing in the rear. For 2 reasons: 1-The leading doesnt cause toe out in bump steer in the rear? 2-From all the info i gather, the conclusión i came with is if you have the steer on the front of the car behind the wheels or axle (in this case vw beetle) in the rear it should be the oposite, to the front of the axle (trailing arms in this case). ?? Thanks

[@thomsenmotorsport7201]

Leading or trailing arms could be designed to be neutral/toe in/toe out with bump depending on the arc of motion that the axle swings across. Think of the axis that I've got the swing arm rotating around, which is close to parallel to the car. The axle joint position is fixed. So to create the rotating axis I need another point which lies on the intended axis. Since the engine and chassis are in front of the axle joint position it's a lot easier to find a suitable point behind, in this case at the rear of the gearbox - hence me using leading arms. I can't see why whether you have the steering arms in front/behind the front wheels would have any effect on this.

[@alexmulas9376]

Excellent series, is this your first project car or have you had experience working on other competition cars in the past? The level of depth you go into with your design and the range of fabrication and fitting skills you know is beyond what your average mechanical engineering degree teaches you so I'm curious as to what sources you found useful to teach yourself the finer details of design and manufacture?

[@thomsenmotorsport7201]

Thanks! In the past I was on the University of New South Wales Formula SAE team, that taught me a hell of a lot. I learnt to lathe around then as well as part of a TAFE unit they put us through, that was also extremely useful. Other than that I've just read things, watched tutorials and practiced. It shows in some areas that I'm not a professional but overall I'm still pretty happy with it.

[@richardwills3927]

I would love to see yr version ov a soup-box car. And you should start yr own world wide gokart business. Lots of people complain they want a propa gokart but its hard to find a place selling one

[@thomsenmotorsport7201]

+Richard Wills how do you mean a proper go kart? Even the low powered ones are fun to drive but things like the KZ gearbox karts would be ludicrous.

[@richardwills3927]

ThomsenMotorsport I do mean the low power one's that is wher the demand is. By propa go kart i ment "well built" small fun style anyone can drive type ov gokart. They just dont build them anymore you have to buy the expencive shit or build yr own.

[@anidiotinaracingcar]

Is it typical for the longitudinal acceleration to be quite lower than the lateral one?

[@kaleufarias7705]

Hey which is your caster angle ? It is neutral or Positive ?

[@alexandervanwyk7669]

Great presentation. Still a bit too complicated for me to grasp the dinamics on loads. The simplicity and lightness seems exellent. Just wondered, did you ever study Ferdinand Porsche's 1935 Auto-union rubber suspension design?.

[@thomsenmotorsport7201]

Thanks. No never studied it. Since we are limited in this series with what we can do I didn't look at other VW or Porsche designs.

[@gauravlakheraofficial]

What books can I go for better understanding of suspension system???

[@thomsenmotorsport7201]

Race Car Vehicle Dynamics is probably the best all round book I came across.

[@gauravlakheraofficial]

@@thomsenmotorsport7201 Thanks!! & What sources can I use for material selection

[@thomsenmotorsport7201]

Harder to say, I used the category rules to select the chassis material then just used mechanical calculations to determine whether the material was strong enough. I can't think of anything off the top of my head but engineering mechanics textbooks might help to understand the method.

[@karlosss1868]

Top vid buddy. Any idea on the ideal front to rear weight balance for a vee if it weighed 500kg? Off to watch your other vids.

[@thomsenmotorsport7201]

Thanks. Finding the ideal distribution theoretically would depend on the tyre data, without which I can't really say. I've just given myself a bit of freedom to modify it by positioning my ballast so it will be a bit of trial and error.

[@BeemerReborn]

Beautiful build and do u hav this build on a website so I can build one with my son

[@kamy3300]

userfull tutorial for my Volksrod (custom beetle) i will put this suspention and a Subaru engine at the back :D

[@ianloco100000]

hows that build goin?

[@guneygoren2965]

@@ianloco100000 i wonder too

[@gregoryschift9324]

How u did the calculations? How u knew they were gonna act just like that? What u based on?

[@gregoryschift9324]

Do u have any email I can contact u?

[@thomsenmotorsport7201]

[e-mail] The basic process I mention in the videos, basically I had a spreadsheet that calculated the suspension positions, spring forces and from that the forces in each member and at each wheel.

[@gtraikar]

wonderfull design, May be FEA ( Ride Index analysis , Vehicle dynamics ) would give faster and cheaper solution than testing and modfying

[@thomsenmotorsport7201]

Like anything, there's always more that could be done. I was happy with the balance I struck.

[@author722]

hi mate, can i ask where you got the dampers and rockers from? were these custom made somewhere?

[@thomsenmotorsport7201]

G'day, I got the dampers second hand from a Formula Ford, four penske shocks at a good price. I got pretty lucky there. The rockers were all custom made by myself. I made the centers that supported the bearings on the lathe and the plates I had laser cut. There will be a video coming out on how it was all built, you'll get to see how they were made there.

[@author722]

gotcha, thanks for the info. Well done on the build mate, am blown away and super impressed at the time and effort you must've put in with design, planning, build, testing, troubleshooting...absolutely wonderful effort. Hope you go well with the racing = )

[@piecartbox]

ty

[@optimusgaming5971]

Can you provide solidwork data??

[@cardashock]

And show pls dynamic angles

[@yelyab1]

I ran an analytical group at a tier one and did analytical work combined with physical testing at an Orem spread over too many years. Very sound found foundation but please don’t advertise that your model will save time at the test facility. It’s an analytical “jinx”. It can an will get you closer to your target and give you a much better feel for the sensitivity of the results to the inputs so you know what knobs to turn when the rubber hits the road. I started my career in 1969 and saw a full body in white strain gaged to validate an FEA model being done by our Scientific Research Labs. The project leader said physical testing would be obsolete in 10 years, that would have been 1979. Physical testing is still in business. Have you automated your spread sheet to converge on some optimum I tried design of experiments on complex input software with long run time with some success. Now I’ve seen “cloud” computing” where Newton’s equations are solved without partial differential equations that require that one variable be held constant. Everything is varied simultaneously generating clouds for the engineer to pick the high density “sweet spot”. That was over 15 years ago, no idea what rabbits have been pulled out of the hat since then. I think all the fun is track day and the humiliation and humbling effects of the “phantom “ variables not accounted for in the analysis. I watch young engineers, technicians, mechanics and racing nuts at outlaw endurance races like 24 Hours of Lemons. I managed highly trained and educated engineers in an office and rarely got to see the scrabbling and panic that takes place when the well engineered system falls flat on it’s face. I’ve been through it at a professional level and it’s no fun but for race cars it looks terrific especially for the up and coming technical people.

[@munkhbayarluvsanjambaa2475]

What's the name of this program he's using?

[@thomsenmotorsport7201]

Solidworks

[@ruturajchandane9444]

hello mate i m jst curios..all the calculations are done by urself ? or do you guys work in team !

[@thomsenmotorsport7201]

All myself.

[@mikep60]

Dang isnt that alot of extra weight? Seems normal would be not only lighter but perform better.

[@bariscanbirkalan5613]

Hello sir, you have a new subscriber. Im a mechanical engineering student from Istanbul and I own a 75' VW beetle. Is it possible for me to apply the same suspension design for my car ?

[@thomsenmotorsport7201]

+Baris Can Birkalan well a real beetle has the engine the other way around but no reason the same thing couldn't be done but backwards.

[@k.bellingham8335]

Wow, you must have done well in math class! I have a simple question, how did you manage to install the engine - transmission backwards in the car and go forwards on a track?!

[@thomsenmotorsport7201]

Not really but I persevered. I didn't do this myself - I'm not an internal combustion engine person - but as I understand it the final drive is reversed which reverses the drive direction.

[@k.bellingham8335]

@@thomsenmotorsport7201 Wow Thanks for the reply!!! Just want say your car must be an absolute ton O fun! I guess flipping the "diff" is how it's done, ...if it can be reattached upside down. I think this concept is not easily understood, I tried to explain this to a friend of mine who is a machinist by trade, (not a dumb guy) took me a couple of tries to get him to understand. Have fun, stay safe, want to see you in the top three soon

[@Stomachbuzz]

@@k.bellingham8335 It took you a couple of tries to explain how rotating the diff 180deg about the driveshaft would make the wheels turn the opposite direction...?

[@k.bellingham8335]

@@Stomachbuzz yup

[@maestrovso]

@@k.bellingham8335 I get what you mean by flipping the diff right away. Thanks. The other thing I have trouble with is to have my friend explain to me how he turned a Subaru AWD into a RWD, as I am not familiar with their AWD system. All he could utter is they put some blocking plate there.

[@kingplays5369]

What wheels do you use?

[@thomsenmotorsport7201]

From memory they are called Oz Performance rims.

[@kingplays5369]

Thanks for the fast response! Great videos, watched many of them!

[@maxmoq8423]

hey, great video! would you mind sharing that excel sheet? as an engineering studeny myself I would love to see the calculations you used! thanks a lot.

[@thomsenmotorsport7201]

Thanks. I can recommend the book I used - I think it was this one: MATLAB Codes for Finite Element Analysis: Solids and Structures I used it to create the spreadsheet, it's not too difficult to translate from code to Excel. Excel even has matrix functions.

[@azimus21]

music is too loud ☺

[@thomsenmotorsport7201]

Thanks for the feedback. Is it just this video or is it generally too loud on each video?

[@Cozyymimi]

no just this one... great video

[@StanleyKubick1]

I don't agree. I felt that the smooth beat enhanced the video

[@SirtyDanchez]

My goal one day is to build my own super light tub frame track car with a 21b

[@yashwanthvudathu4265]

please do videos on atv

[@thomsenmotorsport7201]

+yashwanth vudathu like an all terrain vehicle? I've done these videos because I built this car to race it, I can't easily make videos on other vehicles without building them.

[@rsl6767]

How about no music???

[@sochyvonnnora6035]

The music is unnecessary.

[@sergiourquijo4000]

fuck my life this is so awesome. Very nice job for just a man or two. I am jealous. I hope one day i can do this things

[@stevejones1318]

At the end, you say that testing at the track is not as cost effective. I disagree. Academic calcutions only need one error to render them valueless whereas actual real world testing is where every dynamic is present and correct. It's also a lot more fun at the track than on a spreadsheet!

[@emilsvendsen2752]

i forgot to breathe watching this video.

[@welrod1944]

Where's de bibliography????

[@soldadodecristonwk7653]

Explica melhor q os brazileiros ....este é o unico video q pode entender o q era uma suspensão....os videos q vi brazileiros são uma porcaria ....parabéns 👏👏👏👏👏

[@FakeItalianoII]

Cool info, music not needed though.

[@huss03]

Wow

[@PaeBabbling]

This is more like a showcase of SOLIDWORKS , not surprise if this vid were supported by them.

[@StanleyKubick1]

Lon-Geh-Toodinul ;)

[@plonsu3737]

Muchos fallos

[@cahyahurip342]

formula B, means beetle? hheh

[@dineshpadvidineshpadvi8552]

Gate more study and think about proper technic of suspension

[@thomsenmotorsport7201]

This is defined by the competition rules as the suspension for the category.

[@lunarthespacecat7772]

This car is a child :T/

[@user-uf3op7eg4e]

Not a good design at all not good suspension.

[@thomsenmotorsport7201]

Good or not it's what the rules require.