Things Just Got Outta Hand! The Smoking Gun Has Been Found For This CGC SCAM...

In this video I give an UDPATE on the The9.9Newsstands instagram post where he discovered a possible huge SCAM for a CGC 9.8 Mark Jewelers Newsstand ASM 252 sale - a smoking gun has been found by Ryan at Automatic Comics. This now officially needs to be run up the flag pole! Ebay, CGC and The Reholdering department all have a horse in this race.
What do you guys think? Would love to hear your tinfoil hat thoughts...
Automatics Video - • CGC Reholder Scam!!! I...
Original Post - / the9.9newsstand
CGC FORUM - boards.cgccomi...
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#comics #comicbooks #scam

[@Swagglehaus]

CGC RESPONDS!! kzbin.info/www/bejne/d3Lcd4CKdtJneaMsi=9C8A_U8iDmevVUun

[@pbales8951]

The beauty of this is... if the scammer actually mailed the book to the buyer via the USPS, he has committed mail fraud--a federal offense. So, up to 20 years in prison.

[@donaldvonglitchenberger4108]

as long as someone brings up charges

[@Geoffreydarcy-pv4mq]

@pbales - That's what I've been saying.

[@Geoffreydarcy-pv4mq]

FBI investigations don't always result from independent charges being brought forth.

[@robertt9342]

@@Geoffreydarcy-pv4mq. Still need a complaint.

[@lburwell99]

Thatmay be true. At the same time if he sent it back to CGC before selling it, is that on him of CGC? I've never done a re-holder, but I do know that state you're not guaranteed to maintain the grade, blah blah blah. Based on anectodes I've kind of interpreted that as as long as nothing wierd happens the grade will probably stay the same, bit no guarantee. All this new info makes everyone think they are just blindly putting it in a new case. Very interesting.

[@stevemeyer6609]

If I'm CBCS I'm going on an advertising blitz about the durability of the CBCS case. I'm offering conversion discounts for people to send in CGC slabs and discounts for new customer accounts.

[@danscoolpaper]

CGC unknowingly helped this person commit fraud. They need to reimburse people for the loss. Simple.

[@joehenry9546]

CGC won’t reimburse anyone.

[@melw2100]

I don’t understand why CGC is liable. Now if they do not act then they may be liable. They should know who submitted these books.

[@holyharlot5222]

Someone at CGC knew and that makes all of CGC responsible. We knew they were a clownshow and now we have proof

[@gabe1978]

CGC will offer a discount on grading services more than likely.

[@scottabraham1234]

We don't know how the scam was done. Are we sure they were reholdered? Could it be a switch of label rather than book?

[@davezavu]

I'm positive that the people at CBCS and PGX are super sad about this story. It's pretty clear that CGC, with things like Sig Series and custom labeling, have sought to maximize their profit and distance themselves from the competition. This is totally an opportunity for CBCS to reduce that value gap.

[@thepewbroswreeo5126]

Now that their labels aren’t horrible I think they have a chance. It was always the labels for me at least.

[@lburwell99]

Idk how you can say that's the case. What's to say the re-holder process isn't susceptible to the same level of errors and complacency that's being accused to CGC in this case?

[@AmedeeBoulette]

CGC is going nowhere.

[@chrisjoyce6610]

Been hearing that since CBCS came onto the scene.

[@AmedeeBoulette]

@@chrisjoyce6610 don't get me wrong, I prefer CBCS' cases, both for their appearance than for their ruggedness, plus, their grade consistencies and fairness.

[@amazingmurfinator6338]

God bless America. Where there's a will, there will ALWAYS be a way.

[@AnaheimRob]

PGX is sitting back and having a good laugh because they are looking a little bit more attractive these days. Crazy times!

[@markmarderosian9657]

Not piling on here but I’ve been scratching my head about CGC’s approach and business practices for years. I knew a fellow who had bought every Marvel from 1961-1965 off the stands. He sent key issues to them in 2017. The grading and handling left something to be desired. Especially the grading. I’d swear it was all handled by an underpaid intern who didn’t understand comics. I had NO financial interest in this, and by their OWN standards, each book was at least 1 to 1.5 below the correct grade.

[@tradepaperdad8858]

What matters now is whether people will continue to use CGC after another integrity violation. As long as most of the community renews their memberships and keeps submitting books then this whole drama is worthless. The only solution is to not give CGC your money nor buy their books on the secondary market.

[@Dark_Vengeance]

Since we know what book was swapped in don’t we know the owner of that book through registration? Then again CGC sent me back 5 graded slabs that remain in their system as “grading and encapsulation” so how accurate is their registry actually

[@robertzeleznik8124]

Reholstering just went up in prices now.. watch Time is money

[@AlextheComicHoarder]

Why isn’t anyone saying the word “fraud”???

[@antoniocar596]

I'm still confused as to how this scam is done.

[@CollectorsFix]

It’s likely he is able to remove the book without breaking the case and just replaces it with a lower grade or qualified book and sends it to get the new customer label. And apparently if you send it to get a new label they don’t check or regrade the book again.

[@antoniocar596]

But how does it get a mark jewels on the label? Wouldn't CGC have to open the book to verify?@@CollectorsFix

[@kegman83]

People scream at me why I dont buy CGC slabs. Its stuff like this right here. Just like an appraisal on a house, its just an opinion of price and its only as good as the person doing the appraisal. While I dont know how CGC grades comics, I can tell you ive met some property appraisers that are nearly illiterate and only got the job because its their dads company.

[@richardwestphal5184]

Hi swag, question for you, does CGC have an employee number who works on the books listed? If yes, is it the same employee working on his books?

[@greatpix]

If this is true it's time to get the FBI involved.

[@cwwheelz]

Nice work by the dynamic duo of Ryan and Mickey along with every other sleuth. I hope the offender gets the worst!

[@ddougherty8266]

Question on the 181. This is subtle, but please stay with me on this.. I believe that this is a different issue than the 252 Mark Jeweler. Here's why. If I buy a graded book missing a page, I'm allowed to open it... Right? I mean, it is my book... and I can throw away the label and the case - They are mine - Right? And I'm allowed to marry pages on comics I own... or roll the comic up and put it in my back pocket... Right? And, I'm allowed to send a book with married pages in for grading - and no where in CGC's submission process do they ask if I happen to know of any hidden or hard to spot defects... Right? In this case, it's not a case of a customer cracking a case and getting it reholdered... Right? THIS is a case of someone marrying a leaf, and CGC not catching it - which is the entire reason for CGC's existence. This reveals CGC's incompetence and lack of standards. Now, if the seller subsequently sells it and didn't reveal their knowledge of the flaw... well, that's aspect is fraud. But we have no way of knowing that they intended to game the CGC submission process to get a blue label out of the process. We have no way of knowing if the person who submitted it was the person who bought it when the had the green label. Someone else could have bought it, married, it and sold it to the submitter.

[@mightycomicsandcollectibles]

We should a round table about this

[@pedrojuarez2483]

Every1 is always complaining about slabbed comics is ruining our collecting hobby/comic community... Those darn "flippers" and comic "investors"better get off my lawn... Modern books and multiple variant covers, the prices of things, comic book shops themselves and how they conduct their business... I disagree. With all those and more that people seem2 constantly bitch about. I believe that however and whatever u want2 collect is good 4our hobby. It's all synergistic and kind of helps and revolves around the hobby itself and keeps people interested... The ONLY THING that destroys our hobby/community is scammers and people trying2 rob and steal from our community. That truly is the ONLY negative thing that kills the hobby. Just my 2cents on it. ✌️

[@pedrojuarez2483]

@@Comicbookyoutubersrock thanks!

[@wlnorris75]

Why do my comments keep disappearing? Maybe this one will stay... You can buy an ultrasonic sealing machine, with fixtures for PSA CGC and other encapsulated products from Chinese websites. The cost is about $3000. Who knows how many machines and how long they have been sold. I would say any encapsulated product is suspect as fraudulent, not just CGC!!! The same machines will work on CBCS or PGX slabs. It all comes down to the process in place. If a book isn't regraded when it is reholdered, then it is potentially fraudulent. And really, the scammer doesn't have to go back to the grading company. Buy a 9.0 hulk 181 and an 8.5 green label. Break the seal, swap the book, ultrasonic re-weld, and then send the 9.0 back in to be greaded and slabbed again. Repeat. My guess would be there are some cracks or stress marks that form when the slab is opening, but then re-sealed with those defects. The person then tells CGC the case accidentally got cracked, and they need a reholder. Any crack at the edge of a case should send up alarms at CGC, prompting a regrade. Maybe a crack in the middle can be reholdered without a regrade. This is a total failure of CGC's process at best. A total failure of encapsulated grading at worst!

[@comiccollex958]

Just what the hobby needs when it is on its knees. You tubers playing judge and jury to create distrust on the grading process..👏

[@2ndbestbob28]

Ryan did such a great job, following your lead. Have CGC made a comment yet?

[@Drewzer154]

Everyone saying it "has to be an inside job" is not using all of their brain cells. It could be a former disgruntled employee that's familiar with the process. OR it could just be that someone has figured out how to open a CGC case without damaging it. As far as re-slabbing goes, why (until now) would CGC have any reason to believe a book has been swapped? If the case is broken to the point that a book can be removed you can't send it in to be re-slabbed, it has to be regraded. This has always been the case. We've sent many books in like this, and have for years. We just sent a Playboy in for a customer that had been broken open. It had to be regraded, they wouldn't allow a re-slab.

[@jeffstanley6013]

But the thing is that it doesn't matter if the case gets damaged in the process or not, because the reholdering folks see smashed cases with a significant degree of frequency, I would imagine. Apart from a new label, a damaged case is pretty much the biggest reason anyone would submit for a reholder, so a damaged case coming in for a reholder wouldn't raise any eyebrows. And I think everyone has it backwards: it would be far easier to swap out the labels than it would be to swap out the books. Smashing a top corner of a case just enough to remove the old label and substitute a new one would leave the book alone within its original slab and avoid the regrade scenario you mentioned.

[@ZeroKyori]

How long has reholdering been an option? If that’s the case, shouldn’t all books be called into question that have been reholdered?

[@SABERTUUTH]

Over 3500 comics and only 7 slabs the rest RAW!!!!

[@ronaldbourgeois1255]

Swag l love how you and Ryan have very informative videos well done research. It’s amazing how it’s done.

[@the-infinite-one-5390]

How is he getting blue labels on lower quality books though? Inside job?

[@mrtkiernan]

So the scam is he is buying two slabbed copies, one at the grade advertised and one at a lower restored or incomplete grade. Then swapping the good copy out for the inferior copy. Question, what is he doing with the one he took out, just resubmitting it to CGC ? rinse and repeat?

[@donaldvonglitchenberger4108]

yup

[@decojoker1]

people say swapping out as if the inner case is not involved???

[@jeffstanley6013]

I think it's more likely (given how much easier it would be) that it's a switching of labels rather than a switching of books.

[@leeniren3706]

I must say I am quite concerned. I have nine books at CGC right now and I just don’t know if they will be worth what I hope they would be because of this scandal. Will anyone ever want to purchase my books?

[@loki2stunt]

That's part of the problem... Greed has taken over this hobby where you think a plastic case is so important

[@Vexer-rl9fq]

Annnddd the eBay store is closed....

[@nicktouras1892]

Has CGC commented on this? This is not good... Man I smell major league lawsuits by those who got scammed...

[@pokacat1]

The biggest noise from this will come from the dealers and auction houses. If some of these made it to them and they sold them without knowing it would be massively damaging. Once they get wind of it maybe then CGC will give it the attention it deserves. People power will only go so far.

[@judesjunkcomics3283]

Hey we need a list of every CGC code that could be a scam? Who can do this?????

[@FrogBrawler]

I send off all of my own books to get slabbed. I don't typically buy anything that's already slabbed. I guess I'm good to go, but there's still cause for question regarding the integrity of the "guarantee" company.

[@kobweb2994]

New to this but I don’t get it… why did CGC reholder a book and give it a higher grade? Did he ask for regrade wouldn’t that make CGC at fault not the seller?

[@wlnorris75]

They didn't. The E-Bay seller buys one legitimate high grade book, say a 9.8. He breaks the ultrasonic weld. Do it carefully enough and the case may not break too badly. He then buys a second book, maybe a 9.0 lets say, and opens than slab. Then he removes the 9.8 book which is sealed in an inner liner. He also removes the 9.0 book in its liner, and then slips it back into the 9.8 case with the 9.8 label. CGC won't reholder a book if the slab is open, so he uses an ultrasonic welder to reseal the holder. He then sends it back to CGC and says oopsie, I dropped my case and it broke, please reholder. Then he gets the 9.0 book back, with the certifcation number and grade of the 9.8 book (because that is based on the label in the case, not the actual grade of the book in the case). If the outer case is sealed, and the inner bag is sealed, whatever book is in the case gets the same grade as what is on the label in the holder. Then he sends the 9.8 book back in and gets another new 9.8 slab, and repeats. The ONLY way to prevent this is A) ALL reholders go through the full grading process (which can mean hundreds of dollars if you break a case on an expensive book), and you also run the risk of getting a lower grade because maybe the next batch of graders is more strict than the last batch. Or B) The label for the book is also sealed in the inner holder along with the comic. CGC will only reholder broken outer cases, but any replacement of an inner liner requires a regrade. Customers won't like option A because it means there will be an ongoing expense to owning/selling expensive slabbed books. CGC won't like option B because they have to completely retool their process and design an entirely new holder. But the same thing could happen at CBCS because they have the same processes and similar holder design where the label isn't in the inner bag.

[@kobweb2994]

@@wlnorris75 Ohh I get it. Thanks for the explanation, something big needs to happen with these grading companies.

[@jeffstanley6013]

@@wlnorris75 Wouldn't it be significantly easier to switch the labels rather than the books? And why bother trying to conceal any damage to the slab? I'm guessing that the reholdering dept at CGC sees more than their fair share of damaged slabs; one more in the queue wouldn't raise any eyebrows.

[@wlnorris75]

@@jeffstanley6013 Six of one, half a dozen of another. If they found an old book in an old design holder, the labels may not swap correctly, then they would need to swap books. I believe it is possible to cleanly separate the entire top from the bottom, and you can do anything you want at that point, with the least amount risk to damaging the book or label. If the slab is open, they aren't supposed to reholder it. So if any of the seams on the sides are not sealed, it has to be regraded. That seal is the primary security measure. So the only way swapping the book or the label would work, is if you can reseal the slab after making the swap. Its also easy to tell if something like superglue was used to seal it back. So unless there has been an inside person in CGC since 2011 (if so, just throw at all the slab grades), this person had to at least be able to ultrasonically seal the slabs back together to get it past that check, without it being obvious that is what they had done. So you couldn't pry it with a screwdriver, as that would leave screwdriver sized gaps where the plastic deformed. My guess would be that while some light compression was applied to the corners to break the weld, they went along the edge with a scalpel or something else very thin and sharp. Each stroke weakens the weld until the compressive forces make it pop, without breaking the slab. leaves you with clean halves to weld back together as well. Just a little time consuming, but allows for a clean split of the case.

[@darius5396]

I'm sure many have gotten passed CGC because as for there slab department, it's not their job to check for authentication or condition necessarily. They just re slab the book and on to the next. With as many they have coming in that department specifically, it's only bound to happen. So if anything, if sending in to get re slabbed, it needs to go through authentication first then re slabbed to assure no funny business is going on. That's my take on the situation.

[@shepherdsknoll]

It doesn’t sound like this is widespread, just an immoral individual, it will all unravel.

[@darius5396]

@@shepherdsknoll I sure hope so, because this is one of the last things we need occurring in this hobby. I just got back in this year and like you and others, d9nt need the BS

[@darius5396]

@@shepherdsknoll I sure hope so, because this is one of the last things we need occurring in this hobby. I just got back in this year and like you and others, don't need the BS

[@decojoker1]

if you can buy an outer case and somehow create an inner sleeve, that you can snap shut, and heat seal, then all bets are off, and is this what they did, either that or an inside job just saying

[@jeffschmitt6977]

CBCS here I come!

[@shawnmichaud4484]

Why are we to believe the same isn't happening there just not yet found out? This calls into question any slabbed book that you can't inspect

[@nexcon_comics]

How do you know that CBCS isnt being abused in the same way?

[@horvathsogranfume658]

​@@nexcon_comicscuz cgcs still gives a sh*t

[@horvathsogranfume658]

@@Comicbookyoutubersrock and you win queen snowflake for all of 2024. calm down.

[@jeffschmitt6977]

@@nexcon_comics Most likely the scammer wants top sales price for the books and therefore would move the books thru CGC labels. Lol, after this they may switch to CBCS as the CGC label may take a hit. For new books, I like PGX

[@Nachobeerman]

Can’t trust cgc Slabs

[@virtualrealityfitness283]

I told y’all been saying it for years slabs are crap!

[@horvathsogranfume658]

he was right

[@horvathsogranfume658]

@@Comicbookyoutubersrock ok karen 🥴

[@TT-fq7pl]

@@horvathsogranfume658 Isn't the male version called "Chad"? Or is calling a guy "Karen" even worse because, well, you know, women. Am I right?

[@horvathsogranfume658]

@@TT-fq7pl karen is a genderless term, karen

[@TT-fq7pl]

@@horvathsogranfume658 And why do you suppose that is, genius? You really don't have a clue, do you?

[@johnnydropkicks]

That Incredible Hulk #181 that was relabeled needs to be cracked out and checked for the value stamp. If it doesn’t have the stamp, then we would absolutely know for sure that this seller has been involved with this scam. Cracking open the ASM #252 or the NM #98 won’t help because then it’s just a matter of subjectivity if that book is in the stated condition that is printed on the label. The Hulk #181 will have something that is missing, and it no longer becomes subjective.

[@odinson777]

Not really: the characteristics Ryan identified are objective and measurable, such as the width of the mis-wrap white border at various points along the spine, distance of artwork elements or damage/flaws from the edge or spine, etc. If I'm not mistaken the ASM 252 and NM 98 were also labeled as having Mark Jeweler inserts.

[@johnnydropkicks]

@@odinson777I understand, but it would be an absolute smoking gun. Reopening the ASM 252 and the NM 98 Mark Jewelers slabs would just only show that they are Mark Jewelers’ copies and that CGC can be prone to grading shitiIly. Plus, you can probably tell from the outside of the slab if the MJ insert is in there. Opening the Hulk 181 would be a different story.

[@cherryblasts9707]

LOTS OF FAKES. NEVER USE CGC

[@boricuaenOK]

Grading is a joke 😂

[@binkysphinx]

Does anyone believe for a minute that CGC can self police themselves here? An independent audit needs to be done.

[@davidv.3135]

I cracked and pressed my own Hulk 181 so I am sure mine is legit. This sounds like an inside job! CGC needs to investigate and clean house!

[@dzetwo1]

Just looked at his eBay account. All books have been taken down

[@JernosComicsPopCulture]

Possibility? There's a mole in CGC. This individual is a cgc employee, or a team of folks are working with a cgc employee as an inside man to make thousands off of these fraudulent books.

[@donaldvonglitchenberger4108]

there are sooo many employees at cgc. the odds that the inside guy is going to get these books when submitted is a roll of the dice. i think it’s just negligence by cgc

[@JernosComicsPopCulture]

Cgc employee has a guy that buys books, or he does it himself, and the employee brings those books in himself. The books never go through the entire process. There is no order submitted. No invoice or receipt. But the only way for this to happen is if they have access to the labels as well as the reholdering. That, or, since all these books are submitted for reholdering, maybe the amount of people working in that department isn't as large as we think. ​@donaldvonglitchenberger4108

[@holyharlot5222]

I wonder where the original books are.

[@reprintranch]

I know very little about the CGC facilities but the first thing I’d investigate is whether it’s feasible for one or two employees to visit a CGC building during non-business hours and seal comics into slabs without being recorded/observed or leaving any obvious evidence of their after-hours presence.

[@Hectekk]

All CGC has to do is put a proprietary UV Code on every inner well that ties comic to Slab. They can check code for every reholder. Easy fix👍.

[@colinryan9111]

AGREED!

[@consumetheliving]

But this would also eliminate the reholder loop hole that they have been profiting from for years.

[@ComicCryptoStock]

This won’t fix the problem. It will just force the scammers to open the slab completely. It will just make it harder.

[@ka26199913]

@@ComicCryptoStockbetter to make it more difficult than just letting them do it

[@Hectekk]

@@ComicCryptoStock it would stop easy inner well swaps. If they still wanted to do it they would have to risk cutting sealed inner well and possibly damaging comic. Plus the hassle of resealing it. Much harder to accomplish without damaging comic and changing grade.

[@jerrywangzinger8483]

Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men.... the shadow knows....

[@HeySpanky]

Wonder how many times he has done this and just now being caught. Maybe he works for cgc...

[@nexcon_comics]

Is it as simple as a inside job? The seller is friends with someone at CGC OR he works for CGC??

[@FilmBritt]

Or is friend with someone who makes the slabs?

[@nexcon_comics]

@@Comicbookyoutubersrock why wouldnt you imagine? It seems more plausible then they found a way to crack a slab in such a way CGC cannot tell that the innerwell was removed.

[@nexcon_comics]

@@Comicbookyoutubersrock this would be a bad actor WORKING for CGC. They of course wouldnt support such actions.

[@sirrickthe2nd583]

There is no way the ebay seller isn't involved. This is fraud and theft, this ebay seller needs to be banned and arrested. Who is the seller, so I and everyone else can block them.

[@MarcSpectorComics]

looks like the name is comic selects on ebay from the picture

[@bradcsuka5054]

It looks like the seller has already been banned by ebay

[@tshew1]

Buyer info and sales history on this book return zero results on eBay today. How does that work for transparency! The results should never disappear, fraudulent or not, IMO.

[@MarcSpectorComics]

@@tshew1 it's there if you search for the book but now listed under a new name shiva3 or something like that until you click the link then it shows comic selects

[@bradcsuka5054]

@@tshew1 100% agree!

[@ObsessedCollector]

I just hope Cgc isnt in on the sham. I think ANY comic resubmitted should be inspected.

[@shawnmichaud4484]

I'm of the opinion they are and I think someone inside is in on it. Not CGC the company, but an employee of CGC. It would be just too easy.

[@mikegonzalez503]

​@@shawnmichaud4484yeah. I am thinking inside job

[@virtualrealityfitness283]

It’s a scam!

[@darthrooster1]

No way are they in on the scam. They make so much money per year they don’t need to be shady. Why would you kill the goose that laid the golden egg?

[@ObsessedCollector]

Most likely, if there is any cgc involvement, it's probably an employee gaming the system

[@mikelorenzoart]

This sucks. I feel all my slabs are in question. Thanks for bringing this to light.

[@shepherdsknoll]

Sounds like one immoral individual.

[@donaldvonglitchenberger4108]

@@Comicbookyoutubersrocki’m sure there is a lot of this going on, this guy just happened to get caught cause someone did research

[@Myhovercraftisfullofeels]

Bit of an over reaction. There is always scammers out there with everything. I'd bet all your slabs are good.

[@cougarcomics]

My opinion: No way the resubmitted books were "mistakenly" or "poorly " graded. There must be a connection between the seller/submitter and someone working for CGC, i.e. it's an inside job.

[@AnaheimRob]

Tough to prove right out but it doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility.

[@kyleklmondwa9042]

What IF the comic book scammer simply has the SAME equipment at his disposal as what CGC uses. All he would have to do is crack the plastic slab, remove (or maybe even just Duplicate the CGC tag) and reseal the crappy comic in a new slab with the original tag (or the duplicate tag) and send it off to be relabeled by CGC.

[@cougarcomics]

The more I think about my "theory", the more it seems difficult to pull off. a scam for sure tho. Too bad @@AnaheimRob

[@cougarcomics]

Yes, I just saw that on a different comment. Former employee maybe? You would think the equipment would be very expensive I have cracked many slabs . Even tho I was not looking for a way to slightly open the slab and do the old switcharoo, it sure would be a very delicate procedure to not damage the case.. This whole thing sucks. Hope they get caught.@@kyleklmondwa9042

[@AnaheimRob]

@@kyleklmondwa9042 You never know. People who want to steal from others can sometimes be very clever unfortunately.

[@TopComicsPressing]

Yeah pretty bad… I am not surprised… but pretty bad. It’s an easy fix. One of the old cbcs slab forms had the label sealed in the inner well. Smash the outside all you want, had to cut label out to swap em. CGC should steal the design.

[@DONTSLEEEEP]

The CGC CASE has been compromised. I have been CPR’ing since 2004. Through that time I have never seen a CGC case cracked without tampering being evident. Here’s my 2 cents. Either the culprit was able to secure cgc cases in used from some source then took another graded book, removing the label ( just slides out of top of inner well) replace it with the higher label, seal it and submit for reholdering. OR it’s an inside job! In either scenario the buyer should be made whole and the culprit should be persecuted and jailed. Some would say it’s just hobby, but for many this how they put food on their table. This a collector spending $ on a sham. Quality Control needs to be put on notice!

[@jonswift]

I wonder what the total financial loss across the comic industry would be if people lose all confidence in CGC

[@adamchace]

It would be catastrophic

[@InvestmentComicBooks]

CBCS could be the only shining light

[@michaeladkins8750]

Hey Swag, so I’ve been interested in this topic for a while now, personally I believe the process has been replicated by other sellers AND there has been an obvious change in the standard of grading since Blackstone’s acquisition of CGC. That said, I received a CGC slabbed 9.8:1975 Joker #1 white pages today, my grail book, and I have to return it because of a major miswrap and glaring color rub plus creasing on the bottom right corner. It was so bad my own mother asked me if it that was acceptable for a near mint comic… my own mother people haha We as a community can’t allow an assigned grade on a case to determine the books actual value. My best recommendation to everyone is to always buy the book not the grade, now more than ever. Always verify your big book purchases. If we plan on the book appreciating in value then why would we accept standardized slabs with massive price variation between 9.6 and 9.8 when the book itself can be contested by the common eye. Something fishy has been going on the last two/three years with CGC

[@uscm223]

Jay z > blackstone

[@amandaadams5396]

Sounds like a comicCON

[@michaelstarr1285]

That 9.0 giant size x men 1 you bought for 9k has a missing page inside.....omg

[@tatobroth]

also just realized i was bidding on one of those ASM #300 from this seller! Wow, totally dodged a bullet there.

[@BoxCatKeys]

Same, but FF4. I meant to bid that up. Guess it’s a good thing I forgot to be there 😳

[@johnnydropkicks]

People love CGC labels so much; and CGC loves that easy relabeling money even more. Are we having any second thoughts now?

[@virtualrealityfitness283]

Facts it’s a money racket!

[@adamchace]

Isn’t the re-holder process meant to simply preserve the original grade and replace the case? How does this scam produce a better grade or a non-qualified grade?

[@johnnydropkicks]

@@adamchace Because the scam comic will be in a brand new slab; not one that’s been tampered with or opened. This scammer found a flaw within CGC’s reholder/relabel process. CGC doesn’t have the best track record when it comes to completely sealing cases over the years. So, when they see a book in a slab that isn’t perfectly sealed, they probably don’t think too much about it. Or, the scammer could have sent books back to CGC for reholdering for free by claiming that there was a mechanical error and the cases weren’t sealed properly. And then, the scammer could add on top by saying to CGC, “how about I pay for new custom labels?” Whatever the case is, this scammer found a flaw in CGC’s process. Also, reholdering a book with a custom label would make the slab look like a completely different copy than the book with the same authentication number.

[@bromanr9151]

Obviously he knows someone at CGC that works with/for him.

[@AdamHoutman-qj7fy]

I don't see how this gets done without someone on the inside.

[@scottabraham1234]

I tend to agree but it's possible he might be switching labels and if he can recreate the custom label that opens up possibilities for not sending in to CGC. Will be interesting to know how it was done and how it will be stopped.

[@TheodoreM-wp6cs]

Doesn’t look like that seller has anything up on eBay anymore

[@ScarecrOmega]

I would hate to be one of the people that bought one his books, you have to assume they all are compromised.

[@holyharlot5222]

Every single one, past and present, is compromised, I bet.

[@rq7027]

Imagine all the reholders that haven’t been caught ……..yet

[@Kantankerous75]

I know the popular theory is that CGC trusted the seller and labelled it Mark Jeweler insert but if he was making Franken-books then he could have taken a Mark Jeweler insert from a non-key book and "manufacture" a Mark Jeweler book from a cheap donor book like he probably did with IH 181. He's probably running a comic book "chop" shop. The answer seems pretty clear for CGC, no more reholder only service. Everything gets re-graded if you get it reholdered.

[@michaelcarmen3044]

The problem with looking up the cert# in GPA to see any past sales, the seller could have purchased the book originally at a show, FB marketplace, instagram, etc and those sales you can not track. Whoops.

[@DaveTHouse]

CGC should make the cert numbers public for this person's reholders. Since the community is the one that found this out, they'd also help find and locate the fraudulent cases. Then at least the owners could seek legal action to recoup their losses.

[@damegto]

All those CGC groupies that talked crap about PGX and CBCS. LOL 😂 Comic Tom, Comic Book investments, Vey Gary etc 😢

[@jujitsu3839]

I cant stand the whole graded 9.8 comic book community or the FOMO pushers making the hobby cancer

[@jeffschmitt6977]

Would be nice if everything could be backtracked and charges brought forward for fraud amongst other charges. Im sure the original scam artist has probably done this many many times. We had a guy who owned a sports autograph store. He had thousands of baseball cards signed by baseball players. He had a machine in the back room that would trace their signatures. He was only discovered when they found 10 of the same items that were signed but the baseball player said he only signed 3. They really need to prosecute the comic scammer. Im really wondering how he switched books in holders?

[@jeffstanley6013]

Given how much easier it would be to do, I'm guessing that the switching is of labels and not books.

[@loumonoph]

Looks like another hulk 181 8.5 has been found to be switched. Was a green lable 8.5 missing page 10. I would assume then that those big silverage books, used to be purple or green labels before. Seems like cgc has a big hole in the new label proces. It seem they don't regrade based on this information. Should be a easy fix for them. If that's the case.

[@consumetheliving]

At this point, someone could take a AF15, photocopy every page, slap the book back together send the dupped book back in for re-holder plus the pages for grading. Shoot, this may have already happened.

[@burningwitchstudio3629]

Its gonna be bigger then one book or two. All graded books must be verified and redone. Big bucks!! No trust. I question all my books now.

[@DocReasonable]

Forget slabbing. Just buy from sellers who post multiple photos of the book so it's easy to determine the grade for yourself, without any shifty middle-men being involved.

[@reeftheseaforever]

I thought ebay took down this seller not sure I never confirmed it. wow there is a alot of silence going on with big selllers. how long has this loophole been going on? is that why you see some books not being the grade on the slab...

[@chriskuneman3310]

I doubt CGC will do anything meaningful in this situation. They'll probably make mention of it and hope it goes away, like the acetate covers. I personally think the guy has found a way to reholder the books himself. Despite CGC's flaws, I can't see them blindly reholder books at high grades and not noticing the flaws.

[@tatobroth]

looks to me that his entire ebay store had all new items removed? (if there were any still for sale?)

[@brucecree9170]

Just about the best argument to buy CBCS. The question is not whether one is paranoid but whether one is paranoid enough. If anyone could pull this off it would be someone who has access to the machinery to reholder a comic book. Who can do this other than someone at CGC itself, or perhaps more insidiously, their competitors? This is a death knell for our hobby. I predict that reholdering without regrading will no longer be an option except for extremely rare circumstances such as damaged on shipping.

[@wlnorris75]

Why? The same thing could happen at CBCS. They don't have any better process to prevent this than CGC. And their holder can be resealed, the same as CGC. CGC is coming to light first, because they are the top grading service and their slabs command a premium. But nothing about this makes the problem unique to CGC.

[@reprintranch]

Your comment also points to a couple of other questions - where exactly do the grading companies obtain the machines that create slabs and seal them? Has that manufacturer perhaps produced more of these machines than the grading companies ordered? Would there be any way to determine this for certain?

[@wlnorris75]

@@reprintranch There are thousands of companies that use ultrasonic welders. There are different sizes and types, but all basically function the same. For slabs, there is a special fixture that attaches to a basic "core" welder. This fixture is made to fit the size of the slab, and literally just bolts onto the welder. So a person could make their own aluminum fixture and mount it to any machine of the right size, made by any of a dozen companies that make ultrasonic welders. Or China has companies making Ultrasonic welders, and China already has either copies or recreated the fixtures needed for existing slab sizes, and they will sell you the machines and fixtures. There are also research papers into how you break an ultrasonic weld. I think the leading method is that you have a special vise that allows you to gradually squeeze on opposite corners (top left - bottom right, top right - bottom left). You do one set of corners and then flip over and do the opposite corners. According to papers, this is the best chance of breaking a weld, and you just slowly apply pressure and there should be a point where the weld breaks, before the base material does. The weld may not completely break, but it should break in at least one spot, making a small gap, which you then insert a metal bar or use a sharp cutting tool to continue breaking the rest of the weld. Then there are different techniques to how the bar/knife is used to break the remaining weld without damaging the welded parts. The cost is prohibitive to the average joe ($3k for a welding machine and fixture, plus making the special vise and other tools), but for someone doing it since 2011 and sometimes making several thousand dollars per book, its a small startup expense. And just consider how many hundreds, if not thousands of fraud slabs are out there if they really have been doing this since 2011! And what if they aren't the only one doing it?!

[@geekimusprime]

When this person gets caught, watch them hire him as a security advisor, a la Catch Me If You Can. 😂

[@vgpackpulled9748]

He still has the raw “9.0” hulk 181 in hand

[@darthrooster1]

This is going to have massive repercussions in the hobby. CGC better do big time damage control.

[@MPressiveComics]

Your expecting CGC to investigate and hopefully ban or prosecute these people, but it's a company with one physical buildings. They are a small company. For that to happen, they need to be funded by tax payers for them to do what you are wanting them to do. The only thing we can do is call out these sellers. You already did the massive homework, call out these people, CGC is not paid enough to do anything else

[@Whodis2]

Wrong. CCG has plenty of funds to do this. They have multiple buildings, investors, and were purchased by Blackstone a few years ago. One of the reasons things have gone down hill.

[@IllegalPriest]

The scam seller may be just making his own cases too. Make a case, sending in the fake case with crap book and old label. CGC quality control is likely gonna be worse than the collector buying books at that price. There is much actually special about those CGC cases. Their designed to be as cheap as possible for CGC

[@scottabraham1234]

I agree it is possible they were not reholdered by CGC. Probable they were but I can see scenarios where they were not. Is there a possibility he can remove the label without totally cracking the slab?

[@2002warlord]

Just went to the guys ebay store it is down I wonder why

[@CoreyRust-ki3ol]

To me this is by far worse than pgx

[@davidkennedy6612]

Some people will say buy raw but we also have issues with people restoring comics or selling restored comics without saying anything

[@darthrooster1]

It’s not hard to tell if a book has been restored. Even professionally.

[@decojoker1]

color touch is difficult and with the delicate nature of a comic one feels funny even thumbing through it to do a simple page count @@darthrooster1

[@jheggemeyer]

CGC has to do some PR here soon. Their reputation all hinges on how they handle this situation. Hopefully any action taken by CGC would include publishing all certs submitted by this douchebag, and offering regrade at no charge. Anything fishy would ve bought out by CGC as they should atand by their labels.

[@300baud]

The only way to truly be sure would be for CGC to issue a recall on every re-holdered book beyond a certain value so they can re-evaluate them. But that can never happen.

[@paoloaccomando4778]

that's a great idea.

[@Rorysammy]

No need to recall, offer a special new symbol on the books so we all know it went back through the proper process. No more quick re-slabbing either, every slabbing goes through the proper screening

[@decayingwhale]

This is why the grading community needs to start using blockchain / Web3 technology to transcribe and document the submissions/grades. The art community is already doing it and it has solved the issue of bootlegs, fakes and trickery. TRUST won't solve it.

[@decayingwhale]

The blockchain is immutable and can store all transactions and images of the comic. Let’s get out of the Stone Age here!

[@bvandermeersch]

dumb, its not going to solve anything. keeping track of the census number isnt the issue, a tampered case is the problem.

[@decayingwhale]

@@bvandermeersch You need to learn more about the Web 3 space and how using an immutable ledger will help keep record of an entity. As long as an image is recorded on the chain, nothing can change it. Serial numbers are NOT the only thing recorded, images are as well. To your point, if you crack and switch a book, that book can easily be referenced on chain and verified. Otherwise, you would have to waste valuable time researching for hours if a book on eBay is legit.

[@furbl4345]

So was this an inside job at CGC?

[@thepewbroswreeo5126]

I wish people from the comic community would start a comic grading company with complete transparency. Having everything being video taped and available to the public. CGC does some wild stuff and I have personally lost so much time and money messing with them. Their poor people at customer service, I feel bad for because they try and do a good job but CGC management should be fired.

[@holyharlot5222]

Someone has to make a better widget. The grading isn't good, criteria is all wrong, quality control is nonexistent and they don't stand behind their work. It's a guarantee company that doesn't guarantee anything.

[@jeffradakovich9252]

I agree. Cgc has customers sign a waiver stating Cgc is not responsible for damage yet their employees are not careful with our collectibles. I recently had my second submission this year of 9.8 newsstand candidates damaged in handling by them. I have no recourse.

[@ABCMO-bl5pi]

You have nailed the problem for CGC exactly. The only thing they really sell to customers is trust. And once that’s gone, they have nothing.

[@markleneker9923]

A few suggestions: some kind of tamper seal on slabs. QC needs to be independent of Operations or a straight-up third party. This WILL slow down the grading process but it adds transparency (a term CGC in particular has been lacking imo on several fronts). Other thoughts: more robust raw grading services like CBCS has? Is the future raw grading + removable cases?

[@geoffn8963]

CGC has to regrade during re-holder...only way to stop this. I know people won't be happy with that as they are then gambling with a grade drop just like sending in for a signature series. That will also require a lot more man hours for the graders.

[@AlextheComicHoarder]

Let’s call it what it is. Fraud. This is outrageous what this guy is doing? Have all of these books in question passed through this seller?

[@anthonywheeler1941]

For all we know this could have been going on for years and hundreds of people could be doing this ya know

[@holyharlot5222]

CGC knows who owns the books and who graded the books. They'll want this covered up.

[@ssettle]

Surprised no one from eBay has outed the return address.

[@holyharlot5222]

@@ssettle If CGC does not do the right thing, then it would be on the shoulders of the buyers who got defrauded.