Comeback Mechanics (In Games [Mostly Fighting Games])

How about you Comeback Mechanic to my place and we uhh, talk about Guilty Gear, how's that sound? B^)
MASSIVE THANKS TO VGBOOTCAMP AND TEAM SPOOKY:
VGBC - / vgbootcamp
/ videogamebootcamp
Team Spooky - / teamsp00ky
/ teamspooky
Also ty to Arya of TBS for being skeletor
TBS - / @thatblastedsalami
Games shown (in order of appearance)
Fighters Megamix
Trackmania - www.trackmania...
Riptide GP2 - store.steampow...
Super Pilot - store.steampow...
Burnout Paradise - store.steampow...
Forza Horizon 4 - www.xbox.com/e...
Grand Theft Auto 5 - store.steampow...
Mario Kart Double Dash
Mario Kart 8 Deluxe - www.nintendo.c...
Ultra Street Fighter 4 - store.steampow...
Tekken 7 - store.steampow...
Guilty Gear Xrd Rev 2 - store.steampow...
Fallout New Vegas - store.steampow...
Street fighter 5 - store.steampow...
Super Smash Bros Ultimate - www.smashbros....
Power Rangers Battle For The Grid - store.steampow...
The King Of Fighters 2002 Unlimited Match - store.steampow...
Marvel VS Capcom 2
Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3 - store.steampow...
My socials innit -
Twiiaa - / leonmassive
Twich - / leonmassey

[@felixc.4294]

I wish someone loved me as much as leon loves Guilty Gear

[@Josukegaming]

Realest shit

[@valentinodelapena7699]

don't get unrealistic expectations

[@seokkyunhong8812]

Call your parents and grandparents

[@knitler885]

I love you more than leon loves guilty gear

[@b-d9099]

@Nicolas Pokusa see this is how the hoes get you

[@masterlasheron]

Local man too angry to beat an oldman with a funny hair

[@reboomer8369]

Lasheron compañero que hace aquí

[@Rin_husband]

@@reboomer8369 que pesados que son, nisiquiera ha subido nada en siglos y le seguis preguntando lo mismo xD

[@kaizko7404]

No esperaba verlo señor

[@oki790]

Lo umiyastes

[@Nijwol707true]

British man yells at Harada

[@atlantic2909]

Another aspect to comeback mechanics in fighting games is the type of games that such mechanics are found in. Marvel v Capcom is an inherently volatiles series with infinite combos, happy birthday kills, and sparse neutral. A mechanic that ramps this volatility to the maximum while also providing interesting decisions based around when to activate it is fitting to the core of the series. On the other hand, Tekken is a franchise that is based around movement, prediction, and precise combos. A mechanic that removes the complexity of these things at the end of a round does not suit the core of the franchise.

[@LeonMassey]

If I could like a comment multiple times I would

[@Guitar-Dog]

What’s a happy birthday kill? I’m a casual at MvC

[@atlantic2909]

@@Guitar-Dog It's a common slang term for when two characters are comboed at the same time. If a player manages to hit both his opponent and his opponent's assist at the same time, he can kill both characters with a combo that juggles both of those characters. This is incredibly difficult because the game lags when multiple characters are being hit and because the timing for the combo can be finnicky. X-Factor is a really important mechanic in these cases because it serves to mitigate the harm that happy birthdays can cause to a player. If two of your characters are killed due to one bad assist call, X-Factor level 3 can put you right back in the match.

[@nonamepasserbya6658]

It can be done. Look at Smash Sephiroth. His One Wing Angel has a far riskier requirement to activate if he's ahead in stock while less risky if he's behind in stock. Directly translate this to Marvel could mean the X Factor is harder to activate if you still have more characters. If we put this example in say...Guilty Gear then maybe it could boost your Meter gain the more behind you are but gives less Meter if you are ahead or sth. It won't directly translate to damage BUT it gives an opportunity for a comeback

[@bestaround3323]

@@atlantic2909 I chuckled far more then I should've when finding out happy birthday is a real term. I love that the origin of the slang is that a guy lost a tournament due to this on his birthday, and people started saying happy birthday to him sarcastically. Then it just stuck.

[@TalTalTale]

Ok, the "CUUUUUUUUM" license plate was too hilarious to not point out.

[@Liliana_the_ghost_cat]

When?

[@emi1807]

@@Liliana_the_ghost_cat 1:22

[@Liliana_the_ghost_cat]

@@emi1807 thanks

[@akio0191]

Leon Massey makes a 14 minute video because he's mad he couldn't get out of pools.

[@rattocaster_fgc3186]

I wish I could write essays as good as how Leon explains fighting games

[@Mushroom-Stew]

Give a shot. Experience makes you better at anything

[@logandunlap9156]

you wouldn’t believe how easy it is to write essays when you actually care about what you’re writing about

[@tylermartin7245]

He explains it in the worst possible way as he gives you the perspective from a very low level fighting game player. He knows absolutely nothing about high level play and bastardizes explaining the nuances involved with the way these mechanics are used at high level.

[@sarperdogan6454]

7:39 "At a high level of play" *KY does 3 greed severs in a row.*

[@livenishikireaction]

wdym, this is peak ky gameplay

[@CrunchyMaggots]

To dive further into the racing game analogy: I'm a pretty big racing game fan. Trackmania, Distance, F-Zero and Burnout to name a few, and one of my more recent favorites has a pretty hefty comeback mechanic. I play (or rather PLAYED, before the world ended) a lot of Wangan Midnight Maximum Tune 5, which is a prevalent racing game found in arcades. The game features outright blatant rubberbanding via adjusting the top speed of the player cars. The further behind you are, the faster you'll go relative to the leader. It means that if you're behind, and both players execute perfectly, you'll both end up in a battle for 1st in a very short period of time. I'll be real, I smoke a lot of my friends in racing games, and it's always been a bit of a pain point for me, because I love them enough that most of my friends can't keep up with me, so a more casual focused mechanic like this is actually wonderful in my eyes, enough so I keep a 2nd fully tuned card for friends so they can play high-speed tunings with me. The thing that stands out to me when I analyze a system as outright blatant as Maxi 5's though, is how LITTLE it bothers me when I play other regulars at the arcade, win or lose. Let's take the example above again, with the two perfect drivers. The trailing car will be able to catch up in a while due to the comeback speed boost, but should the point driver start making mistakes, the time before the trailing car catches up is shorted. If the trailing car makes mistakes, it extends the amount of time they will spend trailing before having an opportunity to overtake. You could argue that this is an advantage strictly to the trailing vehicle. "Just wait until the end of the race, then blow past at the end." but it isn't that simple. Maxi 5 has a very powerful defensive playstyle that encourages roughhousing, and the more time you have to try and challenge the leader, or find an opening in traffic to blow past them on a corner, the better off you are. Plus, the closer you get, the more rapidly the mechanic loses momentum, meaning you won't be blowing past at high speed just because you were behind. What it almost always comes down to is consistency. In a sim environment, if one driver makes a mistake early on, but then drives perfectly for the rest of the race, and their opponent stayed perfect the whole time, they will never get another opportunity to take the lead, and have already lost. Makes for a pretty underwhelming race, and a disappointing loss. With Maxi 5's heavy rubberbanding, the same assumption scenario of two perfect drivers with a botched opening, results in a constant back & forth battle for pole position to the end of the race. What a system like this provides is opportunities, and I think that's the important part comeback mechanics need to focus on. The Maxi 5 rubberbanding provides a lesser skilled driver SOME form of passing opportunities (provided enough competency to drive the track, of course), while a more skilled player in the back will have all the same opportunities to battle out against the leader thanks to the mechanic, but get to that phase sooner due to catching up faster, resulting in them getting more opportunities/the lead sooner (which, ironically, could give the opponent more time to stage their own comeback than if they caught up and passed them later on without it) What results is a game that emphasizes it's cartoony, action-movie esque car battling, rewards trailing players with more chances to overtake based on how well they showcase their traditional driving ability, and rewards leading players with giving the opponent less chances to overtake based on how little they mess up. I think that's the important part of the comeback mechanics that fighting games need to be focused in on more; Opportunity. X-Factor in Marvel 3 is hated because of how many opportunities it REMOVES from the winning player. 1-3 hit confirms (depending on resources) per character, to win (so ~3-9 chances) gets thrown out the window in favor of multiple 1-touch-kills awarded to the losing player. The winning player's reward for playing well is to lose on potentially less opportunities than they won with to get there. Compare this to Dragonball FighterZ's Sparking. While it does also come with a damage boost, it's nowhere nearly as strong, and barely lasts long enough to sweep a team. Meanwhile, it introduced something unique; active health recovery while being hit, and an absurd amount at that. While it certainly dragged out games (personally something I wasn't huge on) it did provide the trailing players more chances for survival when their backs were up against the wall. Active health recovery as a comeback mechanic does not worsen the attacker's opportunities should they get hit, but it does provide the defending player more breathing room, meaning should they start mounting their own comeback, they may still have an extra hit or two left in them. I think there's other avenues to explore here once a player is on their last legs. Limited time/quantity pushblocks, low damage meterless reversals, maybe a temporary speed boost (my favorite aspect of X-Factor is easily the new combos that open up. Shame people die so fast). Something that can provide the defending player more chances to stay in the game, without compromising the advantaged player's position. Say what you will on it being exciting/restrictive/underwhelming, I think V-Skill & V-Reversal is a great example of how to try pushing this concept.

[@Elonyx.studios]

I just want to say THANK YOU FOR SPACING OUT YOUR PARAGRAPHS! Made this super informative comment so much easier to read when it isn't a massive wall of text.

[@CrunchyMaggots]

@@Elonyx.studios ay np.

[@paulakroy2635]

Bruh all interactions in Marvel are one hit touch of death combos.

[@CrunchyMaggots]

@@paulakroy2635 under absolutely ideal circumstance, yes, but that's not always the case, and there's lots of factors at play. If you want to get a 1 touch kill in Marvel, you have to have at least one or more of these going for you; Meter is the first big one. Anyone can KO if you have enough bar, but that's not going to be the case for every character. Suppose you get a touch at round start. You have 1 bar. Who's killing with 1 bar? The answer is Zero and only Zero (thank you Zero loops). If you can build a 2nd bar during that combo, characters like Magneto & Doom via a 2 bar DHC may kill, but your opponents character plays into it. Are they a low health character like Zero or Vergil? One bar may be enough. Dante will die to a 2 bar DHC, but Chris Redfield, Captain America, or Haggar will probably survive it. You can step it up to a Lv 3, but not everyone has one. You also haven't built the bar yet, and even then, not every character is going to have the damage output to kill off a Lv3. They may need a 4th bar for a lv 1 follow up, like Dante does. Again though, if you're combing say, Akuma, the Lv 3 would have been enough. Suppose you're playing Wolverine though. Round start hit. Are you killing a Captain America? Probably not. Unless you spend X-Factor. And that combo will build you enough meter that you'll be able to kill the 2nd. But you won't have meter or X-Factor for the 3rd, which is why round start X-Factor is a gamble. Maybe you could go for a TAC infinite, but you're now gambling your opponent picked wrong, and you'll need a character who can not only do one, but also do one in the direction you picked. This is the deal with Marvel. If you HAVE the right resources, against the right time, against the right people, you CAN get a 1 touch, but the management of getting that, both in-game and at the character select screen, is not always going to play in your favor. Things will happen, and the important thing to remember is that these aren't free. A lot of what gets put on display is the top level players with the top level decision making, both in the moment and with their teams, so that they CAN set up and chain together multiple 1 touch kills. Or you could play Zero. Zero will just 1 touch kill you.

[@xanious3759]

@@CrunchyMaggots reading stuff like this really just reminds me i should get into marvel

[@AB-ug4cq]

"Quality over Quantity"

[@madil2259]

Look how they massacred my boy.

[@destroyerofworlds4663]

@@madil2259 who's your boi?

[@seesay21]

3:22 YOU THINK I DIDNT SEE THAT LEON

[@troydeandrade8667]

You were supposed to 😳

[@Pezomatic]

I'd argue that GG guts isn't a comeback mechanic rather a way to give characters their effective health since everyone has a healthpool of 420. Sparking from DBFZ i believe is Marvel vs Capcom 3's X factor done properly because while being a comeback mechanic both characters get the chance to use it, it acts as a defensive mechanic that can be punished if called out, and as an offensive mechanic it scales a combo to all hell. In season 3 they added a last character damage buff as well as giving you 1 bar on your last character and I think it actually is such a genius idea that keeps the person that had a lead in the lead because they will get that crutch and get to be a bit more loose with their meter while also allowing the player that's behind to be able to 2 touch if not tod each character they get a hit on assuming the have the correct amount of meter. Comeback mechanics as a whole are exciting to players at all skill levels if they are not so overtuned so that the player that was originally winning never gets a chance to use it in 50%+ of games. It has to be a mechanic that is just strong enough to give the loser a winning chance but not so much that you'd rather throw away some hp so you can win the game.

[@charlesgauthier760]

Especially since the player with 3 characters is so inherently at an advantage that a game that gets to the point of a 3v1 is otherwise a complete wash with no chance for comeback.

[@grandsquanchrum]

Guts is very literally not a comeback mechanic in the same way that giving every character in a fighting game 100 more hp isn't a comeback mechanic. Guts is like if in racing games you got slower the closer you get to the finish line. It looks like you're getting closer to the person in the front but really you're just as far behind as you were since you experience the same exact slow down. Comeback mechanics are pretty important for fighters and something that no dev should shy away from. When your game inherently has win-more mechanics like meter gain from hits or the other player losing assists/tags it needs something that balances that back out that you can play around like Sparking in DBFZ or V-Trigger in SFV. This is also a good reason behind why tag games have way more powerful comeback mechanics when if someone is winning the other player loses assists and you get meter. Tag fighters can afford to be a lot more aggressive with their comeback mechanics since they're on the casual end of fighting games so something over scaled isn't that big of a deal unless it's REALLY over scaled. More competitive fighting games need to balance it out against the tools that the win-more mechanics afford the winning player.

[@charlesgauthier760]

@@grandsquanchrum Tekken doesn't really have snowball mechanics apart from a life lead and a really oppressive timer so rage might be overtuned.

[@TheBriguy1998]

@@grandsquanchrum I never understood why so many fighting games give more meter to the player who is hitting more attacks rather than the opposite. Meter is inherently a versatile, interesting resource that is would function much better is used as a comeback mechanic than these sort of flat damage buffs you see with rage or X factor. Instead it kinda becomes just a mechanic to help the winner do cool-looking moves while they're snowballing to victory. Every other fighting game has a differently implemented comeback mechanic with differing effectiveness, yet so many fighting games implement the same sort of meter system but don't implement it to fit its most obvious purpose.

[@Pokemonmovemaster]

I disagree with Sparking and Limit break being better comeback mechanics. It's more of a mixed bag. With Sparking specifically, the health regen is insane. In UMvC3 X-Factor regen I believe was pretty slow, meaning that while the player in X-Factor can generally 1 touch you with ease, if you can get a hit in and don't flub your combo they can die. In DBFZ, the health regen from sparking is much faster meaning that you regen while being comboed, making most punishes against a character in sparking just a chance to lower their sparking time. I've seen combos that deal 0 real damage because sparking regenerated most of their health, and level 3s don't help because all their damage is blue health and you've regened most of it because it continues while you're knocked down and during certain pauses in the middle of the level 3 animation. Also in UMvC3, there is also a way to punish a certain X-Factor set up. You can X-Factor during blockstun and get a punish against that attack, usually reversing momentum since when a character does your opponent gets a meaty and/or mix up on the incoming character and you get a small chance to put the hurt back on them. That being said, if your opponent is aware you're going to do this, they can throw and quite a few characters can combo and kill from throw. Limit Break also affects characters disproportionately. Z Broly has good mix with his comand grabs and good zoning with his Ki blasts and other abilities to deter just superdashing through them. One of the ways he was balanced though was through giving all his normals I believe starting his combos at 90% proration, meaning his hit/grab mix alone isn't enough to two touch you. Now add Limit Break damage buff and his extra 1 bar that can be saved for level 3 and now his Light command grab will get you 50% life. With Sparking it gets worse and now he regens through your combos so you need to catch out a character whose normals and specials have armor and can lead to you losing 50%+. The only reason I think Z Broly last hasn't been seen much is because the game is centered around 1 touch normal combos 2nd touch 1-1-1 kill which means Z Broly is getting shifted around a lot and won't always be your last character and raw tag to save him carries the same risk as super dash. Limit break just makes already solid characters also have the threat of needing less hits to kill you and can let solo characters mow through weakened teams. There's definitely nothing on the tier of X Factor 3 Vergil or X Factor 3 revived Phoenix and probably never will be since DBFZ characters usually have fewer character specific tools because the game only utilizes qcf and qcb and sometimes 22x, but most of the groundwork is still there. DBFZ actually has a small system change that kind of works like a comeback mechanic that makes it much better than UMvC3, being the reset to neutral after a character down. UMvC3 was a casual killer solely because when you lost a character you had a predictable entry timing with your next character which could be used to set up mix or meaty which left many games feeling like a one-sided beatdown for people who didn't have the match-up experience for defending against the set up. In DBFZ, when a character is downed, you only negative effect is the loss of that character. You're not subject to mix afterwards and are given some time and breathing room to decide how to approach your opponent next. You don't have to deal with Zero snowballing out of control or Morrigan setting you up for a second round of Touhou with meter drain and chip because she got 1 bar and still gains meter through her twin super. It's definitely not a comeback mechanic in the traditional sense where the player is given raw power for being close to losing, but it is a change that definitely helps more casual players and is a change I'd like to see more in other VS games.

[@jeppyjep]

5:05 “Ranging somewhere between stepping on Legos” You mean infinite damage?

[@IC-23]

to be fair that's still accurate, you either die or lose a good chunk of your health of they set up an unblockable.

[@raijuu1939]

There isn't a better way to start your day, then watching Leon Massey.

[@Lomineheck]

"varies between stepping on a lego and being hit by a car at 80 mph" i dont think i've ever head someone describe pain in the wrong order

[@deddrz2549]

lol Guilty Gear is my favorite fighting game and I didn't even know that Hellfire was an actual mechanic, I thought it just said it whenever you end the round with a super lol

[@Mixa_Lv]

I don't think it was mentioned here, but SF4 and SFV also have their "guts" system where a character takes less damage the lower their health is.

[@yugiohnerd22]

I'm not very familiar with GG but from what I've heard it's MUCH more pronounced than in SF

[@Mixa_Lv]

@@yugiohnerd22 It is, SFV's damage multiplier goes down to just 0.75, whereas in GGXRD the multiplier can go as low as 0.38 at 10% health. GG also sets a defence multiplier for each character that can reduce the damage even further, but I don't know if that really counts; technically everyone in the game has the same health, and the different defence multipliers scale the base health effectively like in any other fighting game.

[@sephyrias883]

There is more to comeback mechanics than just casual appeal. Most importantly, it is needed to balance out snowballing mechanics. When a game only has snowball mechanics and no comeback mechanics, the match is already decided halfway through and everyone watching or participating in it is just waiting for the player who gained the upper hand to finish the other off.

[@A42631]

sounds exactly like dota 2 current meta and it has been that way since jungle got nerfed.

[@Franko_L_L]

These mechanics are needed for games to not feel like they end before a player actually loses, regardless of skill level. As long as both players get to make use of them, no person has a real advantage over the other. Still, bonus points if they give you the choice to spend your comeback factor to extend your offense, that's cool as fuck.

[@ramp8536]

"As long as both players get to make use of them" is one of my big gripes specifically about Tekken 7's rage, because if I'm below the rage threshold and my enemy is at 50% health, if I had any kind of punish window I could end the round then and there by doing a normal combo with and end it with a rage art before the opponent even gets the chance to capitalize on their rage.

[@Neogears1312]

The problem with that is the issue comeback mechanics and beginner level mechanics always have though; knowledge checks. Every has rage art in tekken 7 but if you’re opponent knows how to use Akumas for a TOD combo/close enough while you’re unaware Jin has a better rage drive than art players are gonna be even more frustrated because this mechanic that was supposed to make it so they had a fair chance is now being used to, in their eyes, steal a game they’re hard work went into in the blink of an eye. X factor is the biggest example for this. To a casual it’ll make them feel like they’re putting up a fight when they lose two guys, but the minute someone uses it’s against them for a happy birthday TOD they no longer care. They don’t know how to do that. The mechanic that was made to make things more more forgiving for people without the knowledge to make big comeback combos is now being used to put them in a worse position than ever. It’s an idea appealing to equity, but it can only work off the principle of equality, so now instead of little Timmy being given an opportunity to play the game more he’s been dunked into a situation where he’s losing even harder.

[@DD-fs7pg]

@@ramp8536 Not only rage arts but rage drives. In tekken you can legit death combo with the right stage and even easier with right character, i.e. 2d characters especially. This is why people have such gripes with tekken. 2d characters have insane options that no other characters have. In addition, most characters with a decent rage drive can easily take out 75% or so of your health or put you in a situation where id you guess wrong one more time you're dead. I love tekken because of its depth and execution but I absolutely hate what the rage system has become.

[@raddude4334]

V trigger from street fighter 5 and instinct from killer instinct are examples of really good comeback mechanics IMO Unlocking new attacks that significantly change your character’s play style is way more interesting than getting one or two big “you win” buttons like in tekken 7 or just flat stat buffs from something like marvel or dragon ball fighterz

[@Gustavozxd13]

you know of all the problems these mechanics can have, at least these games don't allow you to just pick a boss character and win with 2 moves, fucking kof 2002

[@cyon1697]

aren't they are banned online?

[@Gustavozxd13]

@@cyon1697 I tried a player match and the guy picked C zero, he can break your block in one move. I guess I wait for kof 15 and hope that has rollback too...

[@HS_Gomikubi]

I'm sorry to hear you ran into someone who cared more about winning a random player match at any cost than respecting the integrity of the game. This was what I would call a very unfortunate case of bad luck on your part... However! I will state with unyielding confidence that _no one who actually cares about said game_ would think less of you for simply disconnecting at the mere sight of someone picking so much as one of them, so if that was your first and/or only experience playing online I would encourage you to please try again. Truth be told it's been a while since my last session with the title, but despite my profile pic I've never entered a set with the intention of picking a boss character and have never had it done to me. It sucks that the game relies on the honor system to prevent them from being abused by shitters, but it's also fair to say there's nothing forcing you to give those people the time of day. So keep this in mind, maybe you still won't love the experience but if nothing else I hope you can manage to have a better time playing someone who at least put in their fair share of effort even if you end up losing.

[@HS_Gomikubi]

@Leo B ...oh. I should have trusted that SnK would have the foresight to include such a basic option in the online mode, but after opening the game again to check I've noticed there's no clear visual indicator to catch before entering the char select screen if you hit quick match and join someone else's game. It's included in the filters for custom search and lobby creation (I've also noted that it defaults to "all" in the search for custom which forces you to switch, but "normal" for hosting) but I can see that those restrictions don't exactly make it difficult for these trolls to prey upon new players. I would say the devs should have "normal" be the default for quick match as well, but I also think that disconnecting is an easy, morally unambiguous response, which at most results in them wasting however many seconds of your time it takes to restart the game.

[@Gustavozxd13]

@@HS_Gomikubi alright I'll give it another go. It's just that it was my very first online match and it really bummed me out that you can do that but I love kof so much and it's hard to find a way to play any of them online easily. I'll try not to let boss players ruin my time with the game again lol

[@NeverKnowsBest00]

Hearing someone speak about engagement, game feel, and, meaningful decision making with nuance while talking about comeback mechanics is *seriously* refreshing. Most fighting game players / fans just spit out "its all bullshit, just pick your favorite flavor of doodoo lol" when talking about comeback mechanics. This video is great.

[@sammcguire3798]

I'm surprised you didn't really cover how meter burning Supers in general were pretty much the first and longest lasting comeback mechanic. Though I guess meter burning Supers really deserve their own video lol.

[@LeonMassey]

It really depends on the way that the meter builds which can flip supers from snowball mechanics OR comeback mechanics, It's definitely a video for another day though because it's a very long topic LOL

[@omarcostilla8863]

Like Leon said meter gain can be pretty complicated. Sometimes meter rewards a player, the opposite of a comeback mechanic.

[@yorozuya_gchan]

The main thing to take away from the video is, of course, "pee pee poo poo". Incredibly wise words. (also I kinda like the comeback mechanic DBFZ has since it's a balance of your last character being pretty buffed, but they're your LAST character so no assists or anything of the sort)

[@Cooldude-kc5wf]

He started linking where to get the games he's showing. Woah that's great Leon.

[@yellowbelt]

My big thing with comeback mechanics is the supposed "newness" people assume it is. Supers used to be comeback mechanics especially in snk games. You would get more meter for getting hit and they used to do more damage when you were low.

[@Milagro_Man]

KOF's comeback system where you have only 3 bars of meter on your first character and 5 in your last seems to me like a good take on the concept. The last character has enough resources to do absurd damage, but the player still has to win neutral and perform the big combo to reap the rewards.

[@vandagylon2885]

It's not a comback mechanic, it's more like compensation for losing a character.

[@Dracobyte]

Nice!

[@ryuli1]

Street Fighter II: I'm gonna beat up this car real quick Virtua Fighter Car: come at me

[@SirJeroldFrench]

Harada added extra hp to each health bar. That extra 5 damage really evens things out. I’ve gotten exposed a lot

[@Craft2299]

I feel like you forget that this comeback mechanic in tekken at least is like a cold war mechanic, as soon as your opponent is in the rage, you kinda start respecting your opponent more, creating the pace of the fight to be more tense.

[@randodox8375]

Love TBS cameo appearance. Lol

[@deadlysnipe12]

P4Arena has my fav comeback mechanic through Awakening. Getting that extra 50 meter and a new super to use was always fun. And since the universal DP cost health, you could feel smart by ending a combo with a DP to push yourself into awakening.

[@DUST_MAN_COMETH]

KOF has a pretty good comeback mechanic that's in a lot of games in that the more characters you lose, the more potential bars of meter you gain. You go from a standard 3 when you have 1 character, to 4 when you have 2, to 5 when you have 3.

[@vandagylon2885]

That's not a comeback mechanic

[@TrollANIMU]

@@vandagylon2885 It 100% is. Getting access to new combo routes as well just being able to hold on to more meter until you need to use it makes any character more powerful. It's also what makes KoF's 3-on-3 format different from just playing the previously standard Team Battle modes a lot of fighters would include.

[@vandagylon2885]

@@TrollANIMU it's more of a "we don't want you doing max damage combos" thing. And or is just compensation for losing a character.

[@KuroNoTenno]

@@vandagylon2885 "Compensation for losing a character" is definitely a comeback mechanic.

[@vandagylon2885]

@@KuroNoTenno no.

[@akiraishin7141]

3:21 Damn son. That's a powerful burn right there

[@Suika_Ibuki_The_Drunk_Oni]

A good comeback mechanic keeps the match competitive the entire time it's played. A Bad comeback mechanic means a player can suck 75% of the match and win anyway.

[@Denter86]

10:15 Dude, I love you. This is something I've been saying for a while now, because no one mentions it despite the fact it's been the main problem for years now. Everyone assumes new players don't stay because they find the games too difficult and overwhelming and because they get crushed online. But then these people return the games and go back to games that are just as hard if not more. In fact, people do things that are much more complex than fighting games all the time in their daily life. People seek out difficulty all the time. The problem is that it's not fun to get into fighting games. The feelings that have kept veterans playing for so long are just not accessible for new players. You don't get combos as a new player. Instead, you get to throw out random buttons into the dark on a loop until either you or your opponent dies. You don't get many interesting interactions because you can't confidently use your motion input-bound special moves, which you barely understand the properties of. You can't even have fun moving around because while mobility in fighting games does create fresh interactions when combined with offensive and defensive options, it's still based on antiquated basics made to accomodate arcade control schemes and as a result, feels to the general public as if their character had a very fancy broom up their ass. No air control, no analog movement speed, nothing. I think the truth of the matter is that traditional games will never be able to retain players until more esoteric titles come out and actually get people interested. edit : This is poorly written but I just wanted to get it out of my system

[@BigBait12]

Totally. It's not just a tutorial issue, it's a problem with explaining of getting new players to understand the appeal of a fighting game. Nebulous stuff like pressure or good movement doesn't have a visible reward a lot of the time even if you're doing it right. Even if you do poorly in an FPS for example you can still get dopamine points for getting the occasional kill. There's nothing like that in most fighting games, being a new player is downright disheartening because you won't know the appeal of anything but seeing a win screen until you practice and you won't want to practice because you don't get the appeal yet, kind of a catch 22.

[@Denter86]

@@BigBait12 People often mention lucky kills as a reason FPS can more easily satisfy unexperienced players than fighting games do, but I think it's more accurate and relevant to say that good FPS feel fun to control even when you're new and can't get a kill. Take any Source game and you'll see that movement has weight without feeling restrictive in the slightest, and that the guns are good enough that even shooting the walls feels good. Not every FPS is like this but the ones that aren't tend to be forgotten, because why the fuck would you want to master them? (Because someone might mention it, there's also cases like arena FPS that can't retain or even interest players even though they all feel great. This is a different problem due to lack of variety and a learning process that's too linear, so I don't think it's worth relating to this topic)

[@BigBait12]

I think one of the reasons why smash as a series for example has such high appeal is because it's enjoyable no matter what level you're at. There's absolutely no pressure to become good at the game and the casual player base has so much content to chew on that you can play the game for a long time without even once thinking of the game competitively. A lot of other fighting games could learn from this, we need better story modes that aren't just fighting cpus in order, we need mechanics that feel good to play with even if you don't master them, but depth for the people who want to take their competition to the next level. Fighting games are niche because they are only appealing to a niche, if that makes any sense. It's hard to get this balance right without making an overly simple game, and the problem is no one is really making NEW fighting games, we're only getting games in established franchises because fighting games are selling to a niche playerbase who they know will buy and they make their prices for dlc and games high because they know that people who are knee deep in the genre or franchise will always buy in. So legacy mechanics will stick around forever because you don't want to ever risk alienating your oldschool players and driving away your core cash cows.

[@BigBait12]

@Frax Oh yeah don't misunderstand, I'm not suggesting simplification necessarily, I'm suggesting better accessability. Make doing basic shit feel cool. Make story mode feel genuinely engaging beyond a string of matches against CPUs. Give the players things to work towards, that sort of thing. I don't want depth to be lost.

[@akesan2374]

I feel like Heat Up in Blade Strangers (yeah this game exists and it's honestly not bad, despite being very simple) is a decent enough comeback mechanic. Basically when you reach low HP, you can start Heat Up, and it basically boosts your characters and makes them much faster, but it's limited in time, as seen by the meter gauge emptying. You can also use a part of that meter to do a super if you want.

[@AzazelTheMisanthrope]

I made comment about this on Sajam's video about the same thing, but I think Hellfire works still because of its relation with the other systems in Guilty Gear. It's kind of underwhelming when you look at it in a vacuum, but I am pretty sure that Hellfire is meant to account for guts scaling and bursts and making sure that overdrives remain useful even later on in the match by having a little extra damage to counter the scaling that they would otherwise be subjected to. In a game where players have SOO many reversal tools in the form of RCing, Dead angles, and Bursts its important to provide some incentive to also attempt using overdrives to help even and otherwise bad situation.

[@sephytcd8349]

The REALLY funny thing I absolutely LOVE about this video... is that you perfectly broke down comeback mechanics in a satisfying way and to really only highlight how much of a red herring they really are to this conversation. The thing this video highlights is less of "Why comeback mechanics are bad " and more of "Fighting games need to be fun at all levels" which is a fucking fantastic effect this video has. Because yeah comeback mechanics are a redundant idea (In a system made for skill vs skill it's simply contradictory and a is rather complimented by proper match making) to begin with and the conversation about them is even more so, so why are they here? And the answer to that is because a lot of fighting games need to offer fun things to do at all levels of play, and really isn't AT ALL about "new players can't get wins or do x things", and people I think get that confused all the time. Fighting games have complex mechanics because they're fun an interesting, not just because lol hardcore, it's about fun things to do, not really winning and that's what we should focus on when accommodating newer players, not "they can't win" cause yeah you verse someone better than you... of course you lost. If you fought someone your skill tho I'm very sure winning isn't necessarily the problem, but you wouldn't enjoy it anyways if it wasn't just... fun and even if the game wasn't technically complex or hard to pick up you'd still get messed up by people better than you. This video exposes all of this so perfectly and all by just thoroughly analyzing this topic. I'm not just blowin' smoke when I say this Leon... but this is easily one of the top video essays ever made for FG's, absolutely fantastic stuff

[@TagaNox]

I think the wall break system of Strive is an interesting idea for a comeback mechanic. Instead of advantaging the losing player it literally "evens" the playing field by putting both players back in the neutral. I'm looking forward to see how this will play out once the game comes out.

[@ariffarzmi5560]

The quality of your narration in these videos are fantastic. I don't play fighting games (though I do enjoy watching them), yet I'm really intrigued hearing all of the technical talk.

[@absoul112]

Besides X-factor, if you lost to someone who used a comeback mechanic, you weren't robbed.

[@omegasmesh]

Fighterz' Sparking is X-factor done right imo

[@paulakroy2635]

No it isn’t. The mechanics fit both games. DBFZ doesn’t have tod combo for the most part and absurdity that is zero lighting loop. corner pressure is absurd. The player needs to be rewarded way more in marvel for getting out than DBFZ.

[@Cambiony]

This is rarely an issue in fighting games, but comeback mechanics might be necessary from competetive standpoint also. I don't think anyone would want their game end up like chess where you can tell you have no chance to win hours before the game actually ends, so only tension is if you can fuck with your opponent enough to get a draw.

[@greenhillmario]

3:19-3:24 THAT WAS A GENIUS TRANSITION

[@higuyschannelyes]

When Hisoutensoku has no comeback mechanic at all:

[@technicolormischief-maker5683]

To be fair, does it really need one? Random cards seem like they would create a ton of variance and lots of opportunities for the losing player to get better card RNG. Not to mention weather.

[@higuyschannelyes]

@@technicolormischief-maker5683 It doesn't need one, I agree, but this video was all about how comeback mechanics are essential to a game, so...

[@chazaqiel2319]

I think a great implementation of a comeback mechanic is BBCF's overdrive. The simple fact that it lasts longer the lower your health is, but it has to be activated and its resource is shared with the game's combo breaker makes it exciting and versatile, while also requiring thought and having counterplay. Centralfiction's addition of the Exceed Accel also gives new players access to an easy to execute, invincible but low-damage attack to break out of disadvantage (that also tends to look cool as hell). That way the mechanic holds value both to competitors and casuals, while still having counterplay

[@aqgpandemic5406]

For me the most infamous comeback mechanic is always gonna be rage from Smash4, especially because of how it overwhelmingly benefited top tiers (specifically Bayo who was already overpowered) tldr: imagine a mechanic where if you’re not about to die you can’t kill and if you are about to die yo can kill at 0%

[@gingerqueer22]

Tekken rage is similar, though not as egregious as Smash 4 rage.

[@ginker4658]

some people don't know this but Leons favorite character in anything ever is jack-o from guilty gear rev 2

[@Eji1700]

I know it took some cleaning up, but I think xfactor ended up in a perfectly fine position? At the end of the sequels life it was just a resource, that was often blown on the first solid connection as much as last character. Phoneix in the original was a problem that massively compounded the terrible feeling of OG xfactor, but they recovered from that nicely. In a game as heavily offensive as MVC3, where "my opponent doesn't play after 2 mixups" having a "and then they touched me and killed my team" mechanic doesn't feel that out of place. So much of the game is frontloaded into getting that first touch (just like mvc2) that it never felt too awful to me.

[@captainmega6310]

Well that's the thing about X-Factor. While hated, it doesn't go against the core principles the series goes for... Chaotic, volatile but fun matches with minimal netual. X-Factor, for what it is, doesn't go against what MvC is all about. At worst, it's annoying as sin

[@echo8171]

“It goes from stepping in a lego to getting hit by a car going 80mph” What the difference?

[@AnthanKrufix]

I feel like there's one important thing to note about comeback mechanics. When done poorly they don't treat players equally and the person losing is rewarded more than the person who is winning. But the thing is that a game without comeback mechanics at all *_also_* wouldn't treat players equally but in the other direction. A player who is winning would need less effort to win now while the losing player would need more, they're not incentivized to push their lead at all or take any risks. Comebacks wouldn't happen unless there was some choking involved. A comeback mechanic when done well is there to rebalance the flow of the game and make players require the same amount of effort at the end of a round as the start. If you were playing better at first, but then lapsed and started only play 'as' good as them then the game should ideally still end up close. It's not a reward for playing poorly, more so a reward for playing consistently.

[@destroyerofworlds4663]

"Super Pilot" lookin a lot like F-Zero...

[@kenjikuroiwa99]

Your "the first airdasher" video is probably one of my favorites to be honest. Good video man using rubber band mechanics at the start was a good way to ease people into the idea of it.

[@Envy11235]

It really does feel that your rant about UMvC3 feels like sour grapes. I never got top tier but I went to locals and held my own. You can beat X Factor. It isn't necessarily a "I win" button because of execution. Sure i can level 3 xfactor doom and attempt to do his TAC infinite. But if i drop it i am dead. If my opponent guesses right on how to block on his next fighter comes in, I now have to get advantage back. Sure in a vacuum it seems bad. But so does Roman Cancles. "Oh you can burn some meter to make any move safe or go for higher damage combos? That is only tied to a quick building meter?? It is a bad system." Fighting games have never been just one mechanic. And you have always done fantastic work talking about how one system affects the others. But that rant felt like "I just got killed by my opponents anchor while I felt I was in the lead. And now I am salty."

[@Envy11235]

Also, Tekken doesn't emphasize movement?

[@AvianZebra]

I think Undernight has a really cool way of promoting comebacks without forcing them. The universal GRD system rewards smart defensive play with a means to take back momentum. Its not any easier for the losing player to get GRD, its just always available so getting it on the backfoot helps you regain the lead just as much as the opponent getting it would help keep their lead.

[@nomblob5592]

Thats not a comeback system. By default comeback system is ONLY available to the losing side, not for the winning side. Thats just a bar mechanic not a COMEBACK mechanic

[@AvianZebra]

@@nomblob5592 GRD is not a comeback mechanic yes. But it allows for comebacks in a way that isnt heavy handed and doesn't reward bad play.

[@LysDiethyl]

surprised by no mention of SamSho's rage system. It's both a meter, a comeback mechanic, and a source of a lot of decision making from game to game. You literally only get meter from getting hit. However, there are no EX moves, so it only does anything once it's full. Catch is, once it's full, it has a limited time where it stays full. So the player in rage has to be able to seize the opportunity to cash out, while the other player has to refactor their decision making knowing they can eat up a ton of damage if they mess up, but also aware that they can just wait it out or punish the enraged player for getting too antsy. Aditionally in both V Special and 7 (the latest one), players can choose to enter rage burst where they permanently sacrifice their meter to stop an opponent mid-combo and stay in rage for a duration based on how low their health is. In 7 it also gives them a very powerful fullscreen move, which will deal insane damage based on how low their health was but will also end the rage burst meaning the rest of the entire match has to be played with no meter whatsoever And that's not even getting into V Specials concentration, which has a lot of small details to it but the gist of it is sacrificing built-up rage to increase the power and duration of a mode that's only accessible when you're below a certain health threshold in match point. it's sacrificing momentary comeback opportunities for a MUCH bigger but also riskier lategame opportunity, if you have the confidence to make good use of it

[@GoddamnILoveBison]

**talking about how easy it is to make a comeback in UMvC3 with resources** **shows Vergil** Yup

[@cryzz0n]

I don’t know why KZbin recommended this channel to me, a person who’s never seriously played a fighting game in their life, but I couldn’t be happier that it did

[@Jarekthegamingdragon]

Smash will make me always, always hate comeback mechanics. It's one of the many reasons I can't stomach smash 4/ultimate at any level other than casual yet keep wanting to dump endless hours into Melee/PM/Rivals/Slap City, etc

[@jeremyabbott4537]

Ultimate's rage isn't that bad, what's bad about ultimate is the input lag and buffer system lol

[@Jarekthegamingdragon]

@@jeremyabbott4537 Rage is a dumb mechanic but that's not what I was talking about. I was talking about how many different ult characters have a built in comeback mechanic.

[@collinsgichuhi8255]

The FOV dragon plays fighting games and watches Leon? (✿ ♡‿♡)

[@jugohayashi2389]

FUUUUUUUCCKK RAGE ITS SUCH A SHIT MECHANIC You literally already have an advantage at high percents of "having to be hit by a killing move/ combo"

[@cyberplatypus4269]

@@Jarekthegamingdragon There are only 6 characters who have a comeback mechanic and except for the go , arsene and maybe sephiroth one wing mode they aren't super strong

[@Wueste0609]

13:30 waltz of zizi 💗 one of the most beautiful songs i know :)

[@RisingPhoenix05]

I think making Rage Drives more even in strength or utility, and removing Rage Arts entirely, is a healthier way to go in the future for Tekken

[@Guitar-Dog]

Yeah I hate how RAs have armor and stop time, RDs are pretty cool tho

[@kamodo2299]

Agree, and of course buff movement.

[@mibbzx1493]

Big facts take that infinite armor shit out of the game, tekken never had supers to begin with & it was purely neutral based

[@slkjvlkfsvnlsdfhgdght5447]

i think that you missed one of the points of comeback systems: these systems also exist so that you wouldn't feel like you messed up once, and after that you have no chance. they're supposed to make the game less frustrating by being more forgiving for early mistakes. also, i think that a comeback mechanic that wouldn't feel like just giving the losing player more power would be something that both players can access irrespective of if they're winning or losing. then how is it a comeback mechanic? well, it's still a comeback mechanic if it can cause massive swings relatively easily. a great example is the disruptor unit in starcraft 2 in protoss vs protoss matchups. i also totally agree with 10:19.

[@Manavine]

"kill 2 characters amd it's gone poof" congrats you gave the opponent who failed to counter x factor the match if they still had x factor.

[@byronvonedmund]

Smash players seeing Arsene, limit, GO or one wing: *W H EEEEEEEE*

[@sethmarshall334]

Dont forget about aura and waft

[@Mascabar]

@@sethmarshall334 waft isn’t a comeback mechanic though

[@sethmarshall334]

@@Mascabar then it's a comeback factor

[@Mascabar]

@@sethmarshall334 but its equally advantageous when your winning, so at that point you could say supers are as well

[@cannonballking7]

As a person who sucks at running the chance to upgrade to a bike is a welcome one despite how lopsided it is.

[@OrangeShanker]

Your retort to the counter argument that rage adds depth was essentially "yeah but I don't like it", which is a fine opinion to have but when presented in a way to say that it makes the game worse in a competitive sense feels very disingenuous

[@Maxler5795]

to me, XRD's hellfire was when you countered with a super. and the announcer screaming hell fire and then, if it killed hell yeah, made it worth it

[@ahriss8965]

A good, subtle comeback mechanic in my opinion is KoF14's meter. Every time one of your characters goes down, you gain 1 full bar and you get access to another bar to fill (so you start with the ability to fill 3 bars and go up to 5). This means you have resources to get a comeback, and you get the ability to do longer, more damaging combos...but you still need to manage that resource, and you still need to find openings and execute your combos. It gives you the tools for a comeback, but you still have to earn it.

[@SKsuprakirby]

> say "Hyper casual" > shows Super Smash Bros Ultimate. Fair enough.

[@Stathio]

No.

[@aristaljunior5578]

The Ultra meter in USFIV is a comeback mechanic that i actually like. Because 90% of the Ultra in the games are bad reversals it makes a really option to be used as reversal in a decent level. And other uses of it is: -Getting some extra damage in combos, but even it requires meter most of the time -And making some options of your opponents more risky -And some installs that diferent from V-Triggers cancel requires setup to be used (instead of actually being able to make you plus from unsafe shit) All the ways the ultras are effectivelly used in well implemented IMO and adds depth to the game, not only that but you can also gain ULTRA meter by armoring trough move with focus and other things(wich adds even more depth) We don't talk about Healing tho...

[@m-seb]

I know I'm late to this video, but comeback mechanics exist in real life racing too. They aren't instantaneous like rubberbanding or rage mode, but applied in between races with the hope that by the end of the championship almost everyone had a fair chance at winning. Most racing disciplines use Balance of Performance measures to prevent certain cars from being too quick compared to the rest, these measures include manipulating the weight and the horsepower (by restricting the engine's airflow with restrictor plates or forcing the turbo to run at a lower pressure). Some racing series even force weight penalties to the top three drivers and even use partial or full reverse grids in events that have more than one race in a weekend.

[@averyplaysthegame]

Blazblue Cross Tag Battle's comeback mechanic that becomes available after one of their two characters dies and allows the player to cancel any attack into a super at any point during the animation, while also rewarding more skilled players by increasing how long the bar lasts by how frequently they used their assist, each level also increasing how much extra meter you get from the boost, the base max you have before the activating is 5 bar, with the maximum you can increase that to being 9. On top of that, a full level 9 meter gives the player access to their Astral Finish, the game's instant kill mechanic, rewarding the better player by giving them access to more powerful tools for completing certain conditions in the middle of a game notorious for having life bars that don't last very long.

[@catchingsomezzzz]

i love your videos man, im loving guilty gear because of you. keep up the good work friend

[@kemious9361]

Ultimately though Comeback mechanics generally end up being used by both players about the same amount of times by both players in a fighting game. The only thing is it feels really bad when your opponent uses it and wins. Take SF5 vtrigger system. Both players are gonna get enough meter to use vtrigger at least once in a match. The question is weather they are in a situation where they can trigger Vtrigger as an advantage . There is an argument to be had about how powerful some people's Vtrigger mechanics are but all in all I think of it as a net positive system. I will say that it can be tilting in to get knocked of pools and have one of the comeback mechanics being a contributing factor. But take a look more often then not you used those same mechanics about the same amount of times as your opponent. It just feels bad.

[@STRONTIumMuffin]

The best comebacks are risky ones like the sword you can buy in dota 2 or using a suicide kill move in smash bros. The ok ones expand utility (like a meter that give a different move with its own risks) and the most boring ones are just rubber bands. But worst of all are the moves that just let you escape combos for free or objectively make you way more powerful like Lucarios aura

[@phsquared1000]

That TBS cameo lol I was wondering if this video was a response to Arya’s post about come back mechanics.

[@Nyarlschannel]

As a person that only plays Tekken casually (as a party game pretty much, it's a neutral ground at which me and all of my friends are equally bad at) I can't say I or my friends are terribly fond of rage arts, they just take so damn long to play out and they happen so often that they start to feel empty and anti-climactic. Watching that cutscene sometimes makes me reflexively reach for the start button to try and skip it. We eventually agreed on modding out rage altogether just to make matches happen quicker. Ideally I'd only remove Rage Arts, but that would take more effort than setting a single value to 0 in cheat engine like it is with rage. It's also really strange how rage arts are so much easier to perform than rage drives, which don't share the same length problem and overall feel more fair and interesting.

[@capitaljames6480]

Rubber banding in arcade racing games sucks more than anything I can think of

[@DevFromParaplegiance]

Crazy that this came out 5 days ago & there was zero mention of MK11 lol

[@gengarisnotinsmash...]

Please raise your hand if you have ever gotten second in mario kart because of a blue shell.

[@newtreesmell7338]

the vorpal system in under night is great because while it might not be considered a comeback mechanic, it's capable of giving a player on their last legs a meaningful tool

[@thesvet6969]

There is a mechanic in GTA V called "Catch-up" where the 1st player in a race will leave a trace of air. If another player is close behind them while this is happening, they will get a speed boost that let's them surpass them.

[@cptmacmillan1111]

3:22 That transition was SOOOOO smooth lmao

[@nevrankroaton]

At time, you seem to bring very interesting topic but all the editing and calm tone really hide the "FG boomer" mentality. All the rant about MvsC3 Xfactor fucking proplay in a game with infinite, unblockable set-up, okizeme and traps that make Einstein still wonder if he should have seen the 4th mix-up or not, blockstring pressure that was only rivaled by DBFz, gimmick ass mechanic on characters that would make them actual god, etc. Did it warp the game? Yeah, but it isn't like it fucked a balanced game, if anything it created a need at pro play to work on set-up to lockdown the anchor character. Dark Phoenix would have still be a problem in MvsC3, Vergil would have still insane loops to keep pressure, Zero would still exist, Morrigan would still make Ikaruga be a guest, etc. Also I am kind of confused how you can talk about Rage Art in T7 like "Ok it is cool for casual players" when that shit is never a problem at high level? Basically the only roberry is the usual "Use it to fuck up a mindless throwed attack" which is very much a read the same way you would throw super read in high lvl GGXrd. Then the Rage mechanic is also iffy because while Rage is such a very potent mechanic to make a comeback with, its condition is also, in my opinion, more limited. You need to be at a certain% of your health, but combo in tekken can do so much dmg that if you are at like 40%, it is very possible a good opening lead to you dying without ever gaining it. And then let's say you get out of a combo and have rage, what about the okizeme? Rage out of a poke hitting? What make it that suddenly you won't be still in pressure from the opponent? And even then, you can gain yourself rage mode from someone comeback which give you also this possibility to do one or two poke who could kill the ennemy. I guess I just feel like ranting because you made such nice point (10:19 is a very good way to explain to people why complicated or long to master games like League of Legends suceed to have people playing it despite its community and the daunting task of learning everything while fighting games are still stuck in the early 21st century and so does its community) but some stuff you say clearly show more bias or personnal opinion than just "This games had this, it did that". People adapt to games rules, it is totally okay to talk about the way theses rules works and it they make sense but a meta isn't about bitching on a rule needing to change, it is adapting to it. Melee players still love their broken ass game despite having some utter BS, Marvel Players created Phoenix specific tech to kill her before her lvl 5, people would learn to change their gameplay against a sagat with two meter and ultra in SFIV, people would keep their v-reversal to use it when X character use its v-trigger, etc. Comeback mechanics are needed, when someone make a good decision and gain a combo, they gain way more things than that. They gain life lead, corner control, meter, okizeme, the possibility to make you rethink your approach as your life lead make some options way riskier. Making the right decision is your skill but you gain a lot of advantages just from that and not realising how snowbally making the first lead is mean that you don't acknowledge there is not something fair in your making a right decision. Yeah, you jumped my fireball, does that mean that you are really entiltled to everything you gain? If you don't give options to people, you push them to create a very dry/safe playstyle. Comeback mechanic being universal, they allow people to have options and more option is always good. ... I ranted and I am sure I could see that some stuff I pointed aren't the best example or there is others views but yeah, idk, too much glory on the winner mentality and a bit of hidden boomer attitude.

[@emptea4437]

Watching this video after the release of Tekken 8 makes me want to take a moment to appreciate the removal of rage drive and introduction of a comeback mechanic that is ACTUALLY GOOD in the form of recoverable health. Too bad they kept rage arts but this is still a step in the right direction

[@sergeen2314]

Probs my favourite come back mechanic in a game I've played (which honestly is not many fighters) is Battlerites orb system. You got the energy to use cool shit, and new players are gonna unga bunga all their energy to use their ults. When an ally dies, they drop their energy on the map where they died for the person still alive to knab it. Everyone can see this and it's all good. The fun part is knowing how to stream together your moves to get yourself into the physical position to grab the leftover energy. New players are still gonna unga, but being able to unga twice in one go? That's some hype shit for some characters. 2 bakko ults across the map and possibly evening the field but now your opponent has advantage with THEIR spare energy. The counterplay for the orbs is also enjoyable. Since everyone can see it, you have information about what someone can work with (since you can't see their actual energy they currently have). But guarding the orb would make it easy to be poked out or blown by big AoE attacks. All a case-by-case basis, but I think it was one of the strengths of a game thatt no one otherwise plays.

[@CalzumSSBM]

I love you

[@Mewtic1]

Same

[@Mewtic1]

Not you

[@Mewtic1]

Ok nvm sorry

[@Mewtic1]

But

[@Mewtic1]

Idrk u

[@GizzPill]

the best part of these videos are the usernames you use, like the CUUUUUUUUM driver plate lmao

[@strawberrykeiku]

One comeback mechanic I’m sad you didn’t touch on was the Limit Break/Sparking mechanic from Dragon Ball FighterZ.

[@lulublue5537]

as a game dev but only a casual fg player, to me comeback mechanics are less of a necessary evil and more of an art that needs further refinement. OP supers and huge stat buffs are a shortcut solution. what happens more often than not is that over time when the newer/less skilled players feel they can only win with these mechanics they become discouraged rather than continue to deepen their relationship with the game, creating a harsher divide between the casual and competitive bases. in other words, comeback mechanics often teach you to play the game badly. i can't pretend to know the solution, but i believe the answer lies in keeping the comeback mechanic deeply integrated with the game's core systems rather than something thrown on top and super swingy. there can be a fine line between ensuring both players have options, and taking one player's away.

[@G0D777]

The metre in the thumbnail is the most terrifying thing I’ve ever seen

[@-eea32]

I was on board until you start being a scrub

[@goon5665]

Okay hear me out. Point system in a fighting game to encourage a specific kind of play (you gave an example in an earlier video to shooters). Let's use Ryu here since he is a simple character but it can work for other character (like venom setups) You are blocking a lot of pressure and land a reversal shoryu. The game shows reversal and gives you points. Then after the game show those points to the player. This is to encourage the losing player to keep playing because they got large number of points to their name after that game. SF4 kinda had this but uses letter grades which no one likes. Another point system would be landing a hit, but if you land different attacks during a non combo state (neutral) then you get more points. This is there to encourage the use of mix-ups because you get more points for landing mix-ups than thing the same thing. Gives points for pressure and for the one blocking (more points to the one blocking). Finally some character specific ones to encourage using the characters tools to your advantage. Landing that reversal, Dodging a projectile then hitting with tatsu. Finally give an audio cue for when you get points. Basically add points to your game and show it to the player, and to save those points to a board of yours. To see these, pause the game and there are your points on the side. Also i have seen your stuff a lot massey so if you see this. Hi

[@Mascabar]

That’d be cool, a lot of FPS games games do something similar to this and it might help players actually try to improve

[@goon5665]

@@Mascabar it's time to make this game

[@0whatman]

I want to see a fighting game where every character has their own unique-ish combat mechanic

[@captainmega6310]

BlazBlue is almost this, but not quite there. That would be the dream fighter for me. Would be a nightmare to balance but meh

[@paulakroy2635]

Umvc3

[@spore4ever91]

I honestly always liked Awakening in Persona 4 Arena. The fact that it only triggers after you return to neutral is very interesting, combined with the ability to temporarily reduce your health to perform certain moves, makes for a really interesting environment. It provides a little bit of damage resistance, and access to a new super, plus enough meter to use it. It works surprisingly well imo.

[@skivvac]

I think Overdrive in BBCF functions as a pretty well balanced comeback mechanic. It's similar to X-factor in MvC3 in the way that it buffs your character, and the timer also increases the lower your health is, but it only changes from 4/2 secs (at full health) to 8/4 secs (at 34% health or lower), so it doesn't last so long that it becomes problematic to play around. Now OD strength ranges from ridiculously powerful (such as Arakune) to not very good (such as Celica), and it's level of balance will be different from character to character. But as a whole, most of the time there's an acceptable amount of counterplay that you have against your opponent's OD. It can be used defensively, as it gives you invuln and a super flash upon activation, or offensively, with Overdrive cancel, that shortens your timer but lets you cancel your normals into overdrive to follow up with a combo. After use, it also takes a while to come back. You'll generally only get one overdrive use per round, sometimes two, or extremely rarely three, but you need to consider heavily when you use this tool. I think there's a decent amount of depth that goes into effective OD management, and imo it adds a lot to the game. There's more I could go into, but for the sake of keeping my comment under three hundred words, I'm just gonna leave it at that and say GOOD MECHANIC FUN GAME PLAY BBCF WOOOOOOOOOOOO

[@bingo2underscores]

I think an interesting take on a comeback mechanic would be sacrificing your health in order to gain some sort of advantage. This way you’re increasing your deficit, but you still have the chance to make a comeback.

[@StarShadow9009]

I see what you mean a bit with rage in Tekken 7 but I still think it's a good mechanic. So tekken is inherently a very defensive game in the sense that movement, while nerfed, is still very effective. So since people are incentivized to defend more, it's harder to predict when an attack is going to come because a ss in that situation may possibly yield an even larger reward. And because it is a defensive game, health leads are really strong as movement + keep out poking is really strong. This all makes it so that if you have a health lead and the enemy is in rage health range, you already have a massive advantage as you can stop taking big risky 50 50s, and substitute them with poke 50 50s which are now just as dangerous but almost risk-free or just stay back and still have the advantage as your enemy has to come to you eventually because if not, they will lose. In this situation, you dictate how the match is going to go because you have control over the match. This would make it so that if you get a decent life lead the match might as well be over, and I would argue that this makes the game more boring to play as, yeah the health bar is 175 but what's the point as the match would mostly be decided as soon as someone has hit a combo and gets a decent life lead. Now when you add in the rage mechanic, stuff becomes way more interesting because now the situation is almost even as even though they do more damage, you control the situation not to mention, you get into rage too if you get down to low health. Also rage has interesting decisions tied into it. Should I not spend the rage and use just the damage buff, because that may be more optimal or should I spend it on a rage art on a read and potentially just blow my chance at winning the game, or maybe I can use the rage drive to get more momentum. Sure you lose the damage buff but maybe getting plus frames and momentum or a launch/big damage is better than the damage if I can manage to push the enemy to the wall with the advantage I create. Or do I use a rage art or rage drive to get more damage and wall carry in a combo or should I hold onto it and use combo conversion to put myself in an advantageous situation and then press my advantage even more with a rage drive or maybe even rage art. if your opponent predicts a rage art then he can block for one yes but he can also just jab and that recovers fast enough against most rage arts that you can block even if he rage arts and then just straight up kill him. Because of all the mind game and how it changes the flow of the game (to a more interesting one imo) is why I think Rage is a good mechanic. Not to mention rage moments are so hype and anything that brings the hype should stay in the game because that's how a game attracts players.

[@kirbyc9042]

The only comeback mechanic I hate in modern fighting games is the one button super move that has armour

[@Zw1nter]

I do appreciate how you present this video