From Cutting Edge to Stale Retreads : Racing Games

[@Francoberry]

I have to say codemasters absolutely *did* push a lot of things. The Colin McRae Rally games were iconic for their time, and the move to Colin McRae DIRT on PS3 was massive. The damage modelling was incredible and the implementation of multiple disciplines in a single off road game was huge. And then the TOCA series was really unique too. Once GRID came out, again the damage was fantastic, the arcade physics were challenging but fun, the team management was unlike anything else, and the radio messages in-race were really cool too. Their early F1 games were really great too, but they did *nothing* to advance them after those first few brilliant games. Grid had a slow decline and 2019 and 'legends' were very poor, and DIRT 5 was a pretty embarrassing game. The physics had/has totally lost the really cool feel of 1, 2 and 3. It's hard to even roll your car or damage it. It feels like ambition is being shunned in favour of base graphical fidelity.

[@mondodimotori]

Still have CMR 2.0 installed on my PC. And thanks to the Silent Patch by Silent I can play it at high resolutions, 60 fps with graphics intact, no bug or problems with modern hardware. Then there's always that occasional re-playing of 2008 Grid. It condensed the GT formula extremely well, and is still a pleasure to play.

[@dienkonig33]

It just baffles me playing any sequel to GRID. They nailed the core formula at the first attempt.. all it needed was more depth to the management system and content to create different pathways for replaying the game. It even had a decent arcade cabinet port! Instead, we have overproduced linear story-driven edgy-character nonsense locked behind paywalls, and I have to dig out a 12 year old game to paint the car the colour I want. Who asked for FMVs in a racing game? it's complete lunacy.

[@anonony9081]

That decline was pretty horrible. It's a shame that the only good thing coming out of that brand new is dirt rally

[@TacticalCardboard]

I disagree. This isn't to say their games are bad, but I just don't think they were that influential but reworking of existing formulas and elements. CMR was just Sega Rally Home Edition. That's not a bad thing and the games were great, but they were hardly making the same impact on the genre beyond just being really fun racing games. I don't think it really did anythiing to stand the genre on it's head beyond quantity of that type of racing at the time. Grid's team management type stuff was IIRC really just lifted out of the NASCAR games in the early 00s where that became a standard feature.

[@kentonbrewer3232]

​@@TacticalCardboard the team management stuff in Grid still never came close to the level that the NASCAR games consisted of in the 03-07 era.

[@BurtSampson]

Being in an arcade as a kid, and hearing "DAYTONAAAAAAA!" over, and over, and over again. I can't hear it to this day without getting transported back in time.

[@lmc1dj]

I spent all day yesterday playing Daytona USA on the xbox one x, it plays well. I just wish they had released Sega rally too as backward compatibility. I don't ask for much.

[@grambo4436]

Im more of 🎵Crussinnnn Crusin Wooorrrrrld Yeaaaah🎶 when it comes to best racing theme but there are others

[@cocodojo]

Whoa, calm down there... "Its only, its only... DAYTONAAAAAAAA!!!" 😂

[@darthwiizius]

@@lmc1dj Does X-360 SR game not run on Series X?

[@lmc1dj]

@@darthwiizius What is that?.

[@Raycevick]

You phrased GT7's Cafe so elegantly, I'm kinda infuriated I never thought of it that way before, though, that itself adds to exactly your point. I've seen so many high-fidelity games that GT7 didn't blow me away like GT3 did back in 2001. GT7 is a gorgeous looking game... is it more gorgeous than Red Dead 2, Last of Us 2, RE2R? Not really. From Underground 2's design, to GT7's goals, and Sega's innovation, this video gave a whole lot to chew on. Enjoyed your work since finding the AOWR series, keep it up!

[@DTM-Books]

My own personal theory is that Generation 5 (3DO, Jaguar, PSX, Saturn, N64) was the peak of racing videogames because short 3D polygon draw distance compelled developers to create brilliant, winding roller coaster courses. Think of Wipeout, Daytona, Sega Rally, etc. With Gen 6, hardware was powerful enough where draw distance was no longer an issue, which resulted in racing games where you mostly drive along long straight roads, with only minor curves and turns. Racing games became closer to highway driving instead of exciting arcade rollers. There are other factors, such as exploding budgets, the rise of open-world sandbox games, licensing costs (thanks to Gran Turismo), and this greatly reduced the number of software publishers making any racing games at all. Everything became condensed into a small number of major players: EA, Blizzard, Polyphony.

[@chumba421]

I own a 2 seater sega rally championship 1995 cabinet and am sure I have an absolutely unholy amount of time playing it. Still fun to this day

[@MC-bh8ph]

You couldn't be more wrong about Codemasters. There was a decade stretch from the late 90s to the late 2000s where they were decimating the competition. Games like colin mcrae rally 2.0, toca race driver 3, and dirt 2 are some of the greatest to play to this day in my opinion. In fact the only non-codemasters game id put in that class is gran turismo 2.

[@joaquingonzalez834]

gran turismo 3 a-spec, gran turismo 4, forza motorsport, 2 and 3: then again, they are exclusive and i do agree, especially their late 2000s games

[@jacquesparpaing3217]

Toca 2 Touring Cars is a better game than gran turismo (both released in 1998).

[@anonymiz6985]

Facts they made the game that got me into music ...literally I haven't stopped since then. Never owned a pc but owned a ps1 and music creation for the Playstation thank u codemasters

[@harrydang9]

I recently graduated with a degree in computer science and game design, I made two games during college for my classes. I think the biggest problem with a lot of modern racing games, especially the indie GT/Forza-esque games, is that they have no game design. One of the most important aspects of a game is the gameplay loop: what is motivating the player to play, what are the rules, what are the goals, what makes this game different and unique from another game, etc. My biggest gripe with games like Forza Horizon 5 is that there's nothing of substance to the gameplay: you complete races for credits and accolades, with accolades you unlock special events to progress some character backstory, and then that's it. Afterwards, the game just throws money at you. There's no longer a reason to play. I think the older games were good, because there weren't any other games like it. Like you said, Gran Turismo pioneered the idea of racing econoboxes and improving your garage. That's a tried and true gameplay loop. Why would you play another GT-like game when you can just play GT? Additionally, the cost (in terms of money and time) to create a game was much lower back then. Nobody asked for hundreds of cars with millions of polygons. Nobody said "No VR no buy". This allowed for hundreds of different and interesting racing games with unique game design. At the same time, the barrier to entry nowadays is much lower. Anyone can look up Unity tutorials and download free assets to create a game. But too few of these games take any time to consider game design. What makes their game unique? What is the gameplay loop? I had seen your tweet about your dream game and I had also independently come up with the idea of combining the racing genre with the roguelike genre. I think it could be interesting and I'm not sure if there had been any games like it. Once I have some free time, I do plan on developing something like it

[@Daniel__Nobre]

A roguelike racing game sounds like a really interesting idea! In a way I guess it actually could mirror a real driver’s career.

[@SianaGearz]

Apropos "nothing motivating the player". I've seen this line of thinking go entirely wrong. There has been a number of games - such as numerous Need for Speed games and especially badly done in The Crew, which tack a garbage story onto the game as "motivation". Instead of story being a reward, as it tends to be in story driven games for completing challenges, in some of these i'm actively annoyed and appalled every time the story stuff comes on, it's atrocious and it's detracting from the core value proposition. Fact of the matter is, racing isn't some crime against humanity, i don't need a motivation as to why i'm mowing down hundreds people, i don't need something to absolve me from the sin. Here's a racetrack, here's a thing with wheels and some sort of steering mechanism, here's a competitor, as long as the actual driving feels mechanically satisfying, under what bloody set of circumstances would i not want to drive faster than that other guy? This, this is the motivation, just make THIS good, don't tack garbage onto the game. I don't know about FH5, but i played all of FH3 and keep playing it. Of course i'm all for making progression more appealing, there are just a lot of ways to take "motivation" the wrong way. I think TDU was a lot more satisfying than FH. Personally not a fan of roguelikes, i played a bit of nethack 25 years ago, didn't see the appeal, so something describing itself as "roguelike" is generally a reason for me to completely ignore the game, feels like some sort of fad that i don't understand. That being said, that probably wouldn't apply to racing games, might be worth a shot, probably wouldn't mind.

[@Toxic2T]

FH5 is great for people like me that work an 8-9hr shift and have not many time for griding the shit out of a videogame. I just like to hop on it, tune/build a car and go racing/cruising/hooning. FH5 did a great job, same to The Crew 2. If I wanted to grind, I have IRL and my bikes or car.

[@vsm1456]

@@SianaGearz Agree, I immediately thought about TDU1 which didn't have any story at all. Yet, it didn't feel like there was nothing of substance in the gameplay.

[@IdiotRace]

Tokyo Extreme Racer and the Kaido battle series had a fantastic gameplay loop. Theres even a story there that isn't completely shoved in your face too! I never bought FH5 but I did buy FH4 and just bounced off it after a few hours playing. Apart from enjoying the location, like the single player content just didn't hook me and it really did feel like they wanted to push you into online all the time. Like I had a bit of fun tuning a couple of cars and just driving around but then I was like 'is that it' and stopped playing. I ripped my old copies of Kaido Battle and TXR3 a while ago and I think I had more fun playing that than a modern AAA developed racing game.

[@kingcars]

I 100% agree with your point about Underground 2 kicking off the era of "open world or bust" with arcade racing games. However, there is one thing that wasn't mentioned. You wanna know what 2 of the most breath-of-fresh-air racing experiences have been for me over the last several years? One was the open world cruise maps in Assetto Corsa. Being able to hop in my sim rig, pick out a fun h-pattern car, and just cruise around was (and still is) such a cool and refreshing experience. Yet, as I look around the industry, racing sims feel the need to ONLY ever be track based. They MUST have Spa and Nurburgring. They MUST have GT3 cars. They must NOT ever have proper single player modes. Heaven forbid they let you race some h pattern street cars (even GT7 doesn't let you use h pattern shifters in online racing). The list goes on. Every sim looks the same. But they don't have to be. Give me an open world Assetto Corsa with a single player "story mode" akin to the old TDU games and some good online features I'll be hooked for months, if not years. Conversely, as you mentioned, arcade racers seem terrified of being track based. They MUST be open world. They MUST spam you with 80,000 icons across a map. You MUST go around corners using tap-brake-to-drift physics (I blame the success of the Burnout franchise for this one). You get the idea. That's one big reason why Wreckfest has been the other breath-of-fresh-air racing experience in recent memory. It's not scared of being track based. It's not scared of having cars that actually drive like normal cars (Forza Horizon games being the other exception here). I still enjoy playing the PS2 version of Hot Pursuit 2 to this day because it is, to me, the pinnacle of track-based arcade racing games. I sorely miss track based arcade racers with "normal" physics like the classic Need for Speed and Project Gotham Racing games.

[@Skumtomten1]

Couldn't agree more. The PGR series was my favorite growing up and I consider Need For Speed HP:2 the best need for speed for the same reason as you mentioned. Even as a person that leans more into sim-racing, these types of games are sorely missed these days, they don't really exist anymore. I often find myself with a desire for a pick-up and play racing game with believable but fun physics with awesome cars on great and exotic tracks. I tried a Horizon game but didn't enjoy it, too much time wasting in the open world and the tracks aren't nearly as exciting as the NFS:HP2 tracks or PGR tracks for example. The sim games feel pointless outside online racing and offers no engaging modes for offline play. Driving a GT3 car at spa just isn't interesting anymore.

[@andrewmartin7412]

Empty Box really is sim-racing dad, telling about the good old days, and how companies suck now

[@LithFox]

Which is weird cause I'm pretty sure I'm older than him and still enjoy racing games more than most content creators...

[@UncleNewy1]

My "WOW" moments playing racing games in the arcades when I was a kid/young adult, were Hard Driving and Sega Rally.

[@RonaldRegain]

SEGA RALLY got a fan remade in Unreal Engine

[@jonathonalsop2120]

Sega Rally definitely, and Test Drive Le Mans on Dreamcast.

[@sc3ku]

Sega Rally for me as well! At The Tilt at Park Plaza Mall in Little Rock. Was so excited to get my Dreamcast and a pent hundreds of hours on that, Crazy Taxi and Daytona USA, plus 4x4 Evolution!

[@haaxxx9]

What about Midways racing games like San Francisco Rush and Hydro Thunder? "It's dangerous!" And "You're crazy!" voice lines is stuck in my head now thanks for those too games. "Try to go easy on the car! You're at the final stretch! Blue, blue skies I Seeeeeeeeeeeeee!" Honorable mentioned to Daytona USA 1&2!

[@drawntothefire]

I loved the arcade of Hard Drivin despite it being very minimal! I bought the awful Mega Drive version for a full £40 back in the early 90's and played it for hours and hours.

[@harleyowen91]

The whole reason I got into not only racing games, but interested in cars and automotive history as a whole was because of GT3 and 4. It had a solid progression system but it taught you about the cars you were driving and what kind of cars and racing series were run in different parts of the world. I miss when a game got me excited to not only race but to learn as well.

[@jeracerx]

One of my main issue with sims in particular is that they don't even try to be games, I remember when Dirt Rally 2.0 came out, I looked at the career mode and wondered why the everloving hell they didn't just carry that over from Dirt 4, when that was a 100% fine career. The triple-A scene doesn't want to try anything even slightly new to mix up the formula, and in a lot of cases seem to be regressing in game design The indie scene I get doesn't have resources to make anything huge, and I understand that, but so many of them fall into being "classic arcade racer experience" or "JDM drift tuning game" And a real issue is that B-tier racing games just don't exist anymore like they did in the 2000s, there's no LA Rushes or Apex/Racing Evoluziones around to give a decent budget to any new ideas

[@black7rc720]

Thanks Matt. Great video. Interestingly, "They" still have Daytona down at the local arcade, if you can believe that. And it swallows up swipes 💳 rather than coins these days. Must be something timeless about it. Even I get sucked in; reminiscent of my high school days in the late 90's. Now my kids enjoy it too, and still 🤔. Meanwhile, Gran Turismo 7 collects dust under my PS5. Funny, that.

[@dandrawsit4915]

Daytonaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-aaaaaaahhhh!!!

[@mtriptube]

@@dandrawsit4915 Let's go away!

[@haaxxx9]

There is still people playing online for the PS3 version of Daytona USA btw. Only in group events though if you want the lobby to fill up now a days.

[@pyramidschema8668]

I think you hit the nail on the head, particularly talking about the fact that "racing games" don't appeal to gamers anymore - how can they, they're either barely racing or barely games. Racing sims feel like flight sims, fun for those who obsess over the mechanics of a specific area but very little appeal to the casual player while "arcade" (or "sim-cade") racers seem almost ashamed that their core gameplay loop focuses on driving cars fast - so they jam as many distractions as possible in your face. I liked older GT and Forza and NFS, I like cars and racing, but I also want a satisfying gaming experience with the feeling of progression and ramping challenge, I want a game that rewards me for engaging with all it's systems while still delivering on the racing experience.

[@McGWilliums]

Tokyo Xtreme Racer was actually called shutokou battle and kaido battle in japan. The reason why they changed the title from tokyo xtreme racer to import tuner challenge was because crave (the guys who published the games in the us) owned the rights to the tokyo xtreme racer name and ubisoft had to find a different name for it to be published in the us. Honestly they should've just stuck with the original japanese titles because they sounded much cooler.

[@ryder7157]

much appreciation for the CRT graphics that you used. I definitely noticed that. Great effort that you put in !!

[@waste4245]

Played Sega Rally 3 on an arcade at a bowling alley over here this weekend, and it's actually somewhat incredible how much more I'd want to play that over and over instead of a PS4/PS5 with GT7 on it. The viceral experience of "Championship" on that has more to offer than anything made these days, I'm certain at this point

[@haaxxx9]

If you can find any racing games in an arcade that's not total trash (Not SR3) then try to find a Round1 bowling amusement center around your area.

[@AgentZ7]

I think F Zero had a really cool thing going with GX for console and AX Arcade cabinets. Great high speed racers that were never revisited. Missed opportunity.

[@SianaGearz]

Well there's FAST Racing Neo/RMX/whatever.

[@coffeebean_tamer]

Wipeout and Redout although I'd say Wipeout 2097 is the best anti gravity racer... f Zero gx 2nd

[@AcroxShadow]

​@@coffeebean_tamerCheck out BallisticNG

[@darthwiizius]

The PAL version didn't require you to go to the arcade to unlock the last 4 ships, fortunate really because there was only one AX machine here in the UK. Neat feature though, I'd still have liked to have tried it while I showed everyone the correct way to play it, yes I mastered GX and have save files with truly fast times on them. When you perfect GX people watching can't tell what's happening because it becomes a blur to all except the player who's in the zone and focussed. Best in class racer of all time, and by a margin. If you're slow you play Wipeout and if you're fast you play GX.

[@0M0rty]

One aspect that I think exacerbates some of the issue mentioned in the video is what's happening outside videogames. Racing in general has, for a while now, struggled to attract younger audience, with F1 being one of the exceptions lately. I think this is pretty crucial, as this younger audience are also the people who drive a lot of sales in videogames. The result is that the focus in racing videogames has also shifted towards a "more mature" audience that are closer to racing enthusiasts than videogame enthusiasts. The developers and publishers feel incentivized to produce more down to earth games, with accessible but more realistic or simcady physics, realistic cars and faithful track recreations etc. I don't think it's the only reason by any means but I think the commercial failures of many more experimental and fun games in the 2000's combined with racing audience getting older is partly responsible for these more sterile and bland games, with studios not believing there's a market for anything more experimental.

[@TacticalCardboard]

While correct, interest in cars doesn't seem to have gone downhill much. I think it just manifests itself in a different fashion than years past...

[@jamesrather1510]

​@@TacticalCardboard it has gone downhill though. The Gen Z kids I know (mostly from supervising at work or because they're literally the kids of friends (#old) don't have nearly the same interest in car culture than Millennials and Xers did.

[@dav786]

@@jamesrather1510 i dont know if it has to with racing video games or car enthusiasm in general, but there is a strong movement among Gen Z, for car-free urban planning. Especially in US and Canada which are the most car centric places on the planet

[@TacticalCardboard]

@@jamesrather1510 I dunno, neighbor kids across the street here are more than into cars. It's just a different world where it's not the same thing we're into. They like Teslas because they are fascinating so to speak.

[@CaroFDoom]

@@dav786 I don't think car-free urban planning and car enthusiasm are really opposed to each other. There's no real world use for golf as an example but as a sport it's still out here alive and thriving. Car enthusiasm will only get better with fewer commuters on the road, leaving the roads free for the handful of people where driving is legitimately the most convenient way for them to get where they need to go and enthusiasts that just want to experience good curves and scenery rather than a 4 lane stroad where you get to drive by three mcdonalds in an asphalt wasteland before getting t-boned by a crossover suv making a left turn.

[@BuzzaB77]

Glad to see you give both Sega , and specifically the Dreamcast their due.

[@Racer-X-090]

Matt, this might be my most favorite video you've ever created. I still very much love arcade racing games. Looking forward to Lego 2K drive!

[@BenignStatue71]

Tokyo Xtreme Racer is (was) a name owned by Crave. It's why Zone of Control is called "Street Supremacy" by Konami, X is "Import Tuner Challenge" by Ubisoft, meanwhile Jaleco renamed Drift King: Shutokō Battle '97 to "Tokyo Highway Battle." Ubisoft handled the releases in Europe, so they bear the name Tokyo Highway Challenge instead, until 0, where it was finally called Tokyo Xtreme Racer because it was handled by both Crave and Ubisoft. And then 01 wasn't released by either in PAL regions.

[@shifty1927]

I had Daytona on my saturn as a kid. Totally forgot about it until that music played. Thanks. I have the sega touring car 2 seat arcade in my basement and never realized they were related.

[@bduddy55555]

You briefly touched on it but I think the core issue behind almost all of this is the shift to HD and what it did to the game industry in general. Development costs spiked massively, 10x or more, in a single generation. Developers suddenly had to spend millions of dollars on textures, graphics, scans, sound, to make a game that was just considered "acceptable" by the public. A huge portion of small- and medium-sized game studios, especially Japanese ones (where a ton of great racing games came from), couldn't keep up and either got acquired or closed. With so much time spent on graphics and computation power, the room for creativity shrank, development times got longer and longer, and the business case for making something new and interesting, that wasn't just an Underground or GT clone, disappeared. For that matter, the business case to make a game that wasn't in the lowest-common-denominator FPS or RPG or action genres disappeared, so there are fewer racing games in general; these same issues have struck RTS's and other niche genres as well. Even when you do make a racing game, it can't just appeal to people that love racing - it has to have that broad appeal, which leads to the GT/Forza stuff you talked about. Ultimately, the market that has allowed that competition to arise, for companies to make new and interesting games, has disappeared. So we end up with the same few suspects, repeating their mistakes and accentuating their weaknesses forever.

[@Appletank8]

I agree that the push for photo realism has gotten a bit stupid. A big problem is reality looks the same to everyone, so you end up competing to see who has the most polygons, which is a race that never ends. Meanwhile, stylized art styles have fallen by the way side, and has only just started coming back in animation. Stylization is great! You start off not trying to look realistic in the first place, but still cool to look at. It’s not a fluke that games and other media that choose to have a unique style look timeless, because they never have to compete with reality, the new addition of 1000 more polygons and raytraces.

[@Griffo20022]

As a huge collector of the Genki series LOVE the TXR mention on this! 👌

[@deadmeat_0152]

Midtown Madness 1 & 2. Spent hours doing the 'Knowledge" tests in the second one. I think they belong on some kinda top racing games list!

[@ghivifahmi4252]

They're basically baby Midnight Club!

[@emaheiwa8174]

​@@ghivifahmi4252 a Driver's and Crazy Taxy Cousin

[@TomokoxKuroki]

im pretty sure the tokyo xtreme racer -> import tuner challenge name change was because the name "tokyo xtreme racer" was owned by crave entertainment, the localizer/publisher of the series in the US. since ITC was published by ubisoft everywhere outside of japan, they had to use a different name. likewise the series pre-ITC was named "tokyo highway battle" in european markets, and the konami-published PSP game was titled "street supremacy" outside of japan. really made things needlessly confusing for western players of the series, whereas in japan all of these games were under the shutoko battle name and were all self-published by genki themselves.

[@IdiotRace]

I'm pretty sure Genki Racing Project got disbanded shortly after ITC came out anyway.

[@Bertso83]

My first racing games were Test Drive from Accolade, Stunts and Grand Prix from Microprose. After that came Grand Prix 2 and Need for Speed. Great times.

[@SianaGearz]

Funny how Road&Track Presents: The Need for Speed comes from the same people and is basically a direct successsor of Test Drive II, though under another publisher.

[@d.e.2338]

Stunts is still an awesome game.

[@darthbung]

Gran Turismo 7 on PSVR2 turns into a next level experience and all the interior car porn immediately makes sense

[@psionski]

One word: Trackmania. It's free on Steam. Developed by Nadeo, published by Ubisoft (so, not some little indie game). If that game doesn't restore your faith in arcade racing games, nothing will. It's unique both in gameplay and genre (it's an eSport arcade racer), and it's tons of fun.

[@MRTOWELRACK]

I like modern arcade racers. Mariokart is another. More realistic racers, especially ones based on leagues, do feel as though they’ve stagnated due to a lack of competition.

[@Stray_Spectre]

Thank you for mentioning the TXR series. Zero is still my favorite game of all time, period. Racing games used to have feelings of passion and soul and I think that's what drew people to them. These days everything out there feels like it was birthed from a bunch of old men in suits sitting around a table asking each other what the competition is doing, and what the kids are into these days. Then they cram all of that into a single experience that misses all the marks. Everything reeks of corporate "hello fellow car enthusiast" BS.

[@haaxxx9]

Wangan Midnight Maximum Tune series is actively keeping it alive in the arcades of Round 1. I'd rather dump $60 on that game then play FH5 for another 10+ hours.

[@jamesrather1510]

I'm of roughly the same generation as Empty Box and was around in the Papyrus days (Indycar Racing 2 on my Thrustmaster T1 wheel bought at Circuit City in the early 90s). And also played the hell out of the early GT games on PS1. Flash forward a few decades and the genre is stagnant. And not to go full Austen Ogonowski here, but devs have also forgotten (or lack the budget to deliver) titles that adhere to the fundamentals of good AAA game design. Hence we get the same retread titles over, and over, and over, each broken in its own way.

[@Stereomoo]

Since you tweeted about your 'ideal game' I've been thinking about what it would take for me to make a 'game' period. Something you download, play, finish. As background I've modded cars for Assetto Corsa since day 1, I've released ~20 scratch-made cars both payware & free. And to be quite honest, the last few years I'm still making models, I enjoy doing that, but I'm barely playing racing sims. And I think what's missing for me is that 'racing, replicated' isn't in itself enough. I want a concrete beginning, middle, end type of story arc. But at a smaller scale than 'grind for money, build the fastest car in GT7 and beat all the races, set gold medal laptimes'. More like you're entered in the Le Mans 24 hours, and you win the game if you finish on the rankings, lose on DNF. Then if you want to play again you can, and different things will go wrong for you and other drivers. I feel like there's much more scope for RNG car problems to be 'fun' in that context, since the point isn't the fastest hotlap, it's that something happened and you recognized and overcame it. And if you're better at the game, you also place better at the end, but that's kind of optional.

[@TacticalCardboard]

I think the problem is half the aspect of racing isn't being replicated. Everything is in a vacuum, there are no effects - each race in a racing sim is basically it's own thing that means nothing.

[@jamesrather1510]

PC2 tried to be that sim IMO. And partially succeeded, even if the physics on some cars were broken.

[@iwanttocomplain]

You are onto something. A championship season would work well with more detailed damage modelling that carries over like in LeMans. That would really add to the tension. . One feature I’ve seen people asking for is ai which has distinct personalities. Enthusiasts are asking for the opponents to replicate the driving styles of their real life counterparts. You could take this further and have rivalries and battles that play out in terms of a narrative that drives a story. Playing online, it’s unlikely you will face the same opponent enough times to build up a rappore and thus there is no naraaive aspect.

[@mr.fister4738]

I kinda agree with you Racing sims are fun but they lack a goal imo. You can drive but for what reason? No championships, no rivalries, no nothing especially when playing singleplayer against ai. But if you play multiplayer this isnt much of a problem, but there are very few people who have enough friends to play a championship with decent grid sizes with. In order to get a story I have to play old games like Grand Prix 4 or Gran Turismo 4 e.g.. Their driving physics are great, especially for the time they've been released in but they simply don't compare to games like RFactor 2 or ACC. I wish there was a racing sim that combines the "story", ai and weather elements of Grand Prix 4 with the physics of RFactor2

[@ytmhcubed]

@@TacticalCardboard This is exactly right. I know I can open up a number of racing sims and race, yes, and racing is fun and all. I like cars and all. But, as weird as it sounds, I find fuller experiences of older games much more compelling to replay than to just boot up a sim and race in a total vacuum.

[@DjNikGnashers]

Wipeout deserves a mention, great physics amazing music, and just a unique idea. TOCA2 was fantastic, and road rash (Megadrive).

[@TeamVVV]

Great video! Some fantastic titles mentioned here, I'll show a bit of love to Ridge Racer and its impact on the PS launch in Japan. Wipeout and its effect on youth culture in the UK. Besides TOCA Race Driver 2, Burnout 3, Blur, Split Second, Driver San Francisco and the impact they all had for various reasons. Would be good to do a podcast sometime.

[@top-hat7618]

I really enjoyed the discussion in this video but I was also hooked by the Sega Rally gameplay, like god damn, that extra stage was ALMOST done for!

[@sambeezy007]

I understand your mindset on simplicity. That went downhill with the Need For Speed franchise (as much as i like this game) maybe since Carbon handling related.

[@BuzzaB77]

Raceivick's Vid (as usual) was a great essay. Great to see you weigh in mr Box.

[@LowEndPCGamer100]

its for these reasons precisley that i go back and play old racing games, the obvious papyrus sims like GPL, ICR2, NR2003S, and other greats like Daytona USA and Outrun, things just aint the same!

[@Zerofightervi]

I think I must be one of the only people who really understood the significance of Gran Turismo before most. I was into Japanese cars before it was considered 'cool', when I saw the first preview in EDGE magazine with all these JDM legends lined up it was like someone had been listening to the conversations my brother & I had about our dream racing game. So many times I've heard people who now own a Nissan Skyline R32 GT-R say 'I played it in Gran Turismo & wanted one since then'. It tapped into a culture before that culture even really existed if that makes sense. I don't think we'll ever see a game like it again.

[@1InVader1]

As far as Codemasters goes, in (Eastern) Europe at least Colin McRae Rally 2.0 was pretty freaking huge. I was in elementary school at the time, but everyone with a good enough PC or a PS1 was playing it. Not only was it THE rally game to play, it was also THE racing game to play until NFS Hot Pursuit 2 came out, because High Stakes and Porsche didn't do that well, although Porsche on PC later gained a cult following as "the last NFS game without bs in it". Mostly realistic handling, realistic stages, realistic car damage, the time it takes to fix damage, official rally rules and authenticity, splitscreen... CMR2.0 had everything a young kid at the time could call "so real" which at the time was the hallmark of good vs better games. The game which was more realistic was by definition better, therefore the accurate depiction of rally and hardcore realism in CMR2.0 was a massive selling point. Note that at this point in time Nintendo/Sega is pretty much non-existent in Eastern Europe, so no Sega Rally nor Daytona or any other SEGA game, no N64. It was either PC or PS1, but mostly PC, because a "console that's only good for playing games is a waste money".

[@snyperal]

Glad you touched on the porsche licensing issue, for years they blocked porkers from being in any decent title... such a shame. Some great titles in your video, a right trip down memory lane 👍👍

[@SuperDracula1992]

absolutely agree on that take about unique locations in different tracks, wich we lost with open world games, and its actual for any kind of open world games

[@avloc1]

Enduro Racer. Outrun. Buggy Boy. Stunt Car Racer. Hard Drivin. Virtua Racing. That's pretty much my childhood.

[@legitcrack6438]

Pole position on atari 2600 was the first game i ever played. One of my earliest memories and made me fall in love with video games.

[@SuperFlashDriver]

The problem with racing games, in my opinion, is that there isn't enough track variety or content for people to sink in FOR OFFLINE USE....Having to make games just for online only kind of suck when for me it's best for me to play against 11 CPUs of my skill level, and just have chaotic fun. This is why I still go back to Need For Speed Hot Pursuit 2 on the PS2, because, well, it's always a blast to play, and the track variety was pretty good. Daytona one is a close second. 08:09 Okay dude, if I ever had a CRT that dim, I would have to turn up the brightness to nearly 30x it's own brightness, or to a much better brighter levels of brightness and increase the contrast to make it much cleaner and brighter.

[@RaceSimCentral]

It's not lost on me that in the "cutting edge" section you could easily name how often racing games shipped with every graphics renderer. Daytona USA and NASCAR Racing shipped with NVIDIA's first ever GPU, NASCAR Racing shipped with arguably the first announced gaming CPU (Creative VLB Blaster). We had titles using Rendition, Direct 3D, PowerVR, M3D, 3DFX and everything SO DAMN EARLY when most other titles were still using software rendering. They truly did, in every way, ride the very crest of hardware improvements... And hey, what about controllers?? They had to work to support, support, support.

[@RaceSimCentral]

hahaha, I just got to where you are talking about licensing... And, yeah. I just had a rant about that posting the news about I23 being delayed.

[@PayasYouListen]

I think it's fair to say that while I can't choose a single favourite racing game, every candidate comes from the 1995-2005 era. They had a certian charm about them back then, and that's been completely lost today. Also, competition improves the breed. We need more competition between developers.

[@justinkrizenesky]

I've always loved cars and racing. Nascar games and Dirt To Daytona were everything to me as a kid. That said, NFS High Stakes, Porsche Unleashed, and HP2 changed everything for me. My love of cars hasn't dwindled in 20 years, and my childhood heroes still come from that era. I wish racing games could go back...

[@Brucedoos]

HP2 doesn't get the love it deserves

[@PayasYouListen]

Import Tuna Challenge. A classic stealth game about smuggling large fish though customs.

[@vincentyovian5480]

To this day, I still occasionally play Midnight Club 3 because, in my opinion, it's the most fun arcade racing game from a gameplay standpoint. Great soundtrack too.

[@TheMidnightBandit]

Star Wars Episode One: Racer for PC, N64 & Dreamcast was a huge part of my childhood, and is one of the best racing games of all time. That, and CTR: Crash Team Racing.

[@GTXDash]

Only 10 years ago, the arcade near me happened to have an original 2 player SEGA Rally Championship cabinet. A friend and I played a few rounds and it was the best arcade experience we ever had.

[@AidanMillward]

You mentioned Shenmue there, and while it might have been a fleeting mention, virtually every 3D open world RPG game such as Fallout 3 onwards, GTA3 onwards, NFS Underground 2 and so on all owe their existence in some way to it. In the driving space: Shenmue and Driver. The Dreamcast also gave us Crazy Taxi which is god tier. 🤣

[@R3volutionblu3s]

Man the clips from this were a trip down memory lane. I hadn't thought about Dirt to Daytona in years. The Tokyo Xtreme Racer franchise was another of my favorites, along with Sega GT, Beetle Adventure Racing, Toca, the Project Gotham Racing series (I'm including MSR in this), Rallisport Challenge, and tons of others I have forgotten about.

[@fullmetalracingesports3169]

one of the single-best games came from this era; Richard Burns Rally. Even to this day 23 years later, the physics and gameplay still hold up.

[@iamsioth]

Dont forget about Sega GT 2002 on the original Xbox. Such a damn good game

[@MetalgearLuke]

Always love it when you do these kinds of vids

[@isamuu99]

Empty Box....I've been following and watching your channel for years now, and I can say this is your *BEST* video to date by FAR!!! For some reason I always pegged you as a hardcore elite sim-head. But I was wrong. I had no idea you were hip to all the great arcade classics of yesteryear. Hell, this vid gets my number 1 vote for the Scud Race shout out ALONE! Excellent stuff man. Keep the great content coming!

[@drawntothefire]

My best driving game memories were Project Gotham Racing 2 and Rallisport Challenge 2 on the original Xbox. Ah the nostalgia!!

[@Heldermaior]

I Will drop some more thoughts into this excellent videos and a more European point of view. But let me just say that while recently discussing gran turismo with a friend, I described it as a racing RPG and I am ver proud of that. That was what was so different about it. 180 cars was insane at the time and the graphics blew a lot of console cabinets out of the water. But it was the continuity aspect of it. You could buy cars, tweak upgrade them, grind the licences and get new cars and new races, the used market place especially in 2 was wild. We would trade cars we wanted irk because it showed up in someone's used dealership and we wanted it. It was fascinating. Not unlike the discussions we had surrounding FF.

[@mondodimotori]

Well, it was called a "CaRPG". And, nowadays, all games from big publishers follow that blueprint. That's what is stagnating, probably. Also the fact that RPG progression was better in the old Test Drive Unlimited than any of the Forza Horizon games.

[@rolux4853]

What does this have to do with a European perspective? I’m from Germany and I couldn’t make out anything European about your statement, it could come from everywhere in the world..

[@Heldermaior]

@@rolux4853 I haven't done it yet. I said later.

[@markjohnson1734]

And gran turismo had a sense of progression starting in the REALLLLY slow cars and working your way up- Now you just win a hypercar in a wheelspin on Forza.

[@krono5el]

As a Sega kid for life growing up with Outrun and Sega Rally was just some of the greatest moments of my gaming life : D

[@Hahahbrrrrr]

Nostalgia is a thing that can be both good and bad.

[@Dr.Kananga]

Toca and Toca2 in the 90s, both titles were hot cake, so much fun.

[@charlesshamseldin9555]

Last racing game I bought and enjoyed was Colin McRae 3 for the OG Xbox. Still better than anything released today. AAA gaming in general not just racing is a disappointed mess of me too these days.

[@kenn-h3y]

Just wanted to say, Metropolis Street Racer on the Dreamcast was made by the same people who went on to do Project Gotham for the Xbox. They took pretty much the same tracks and kudos points directly over to the PGR series. Also, I rank NFSU2 as one of the best arcade racers out there. Burnout Paradise is also a great arcade racer.

[@calebchambers377]

Burnout 3 takedown will always be the perfect arcade racing game ever made

[@CaroFDoom]

I maintain that this is an overall gaming industry problem rather than a specifically Racing Game problem. We don't make games for 480i anymore; and that's exponentially increased the amount of time and money that goes into making a game; especially one that can actually come out as a complete package. Large scale racing game maps might not help the issue but they're far from the only factor. When you need to spend millions of dollars on development and you're legally obligated to do what's in best interest of the shareholders using you as a money printer it's easy to get stuck in the box of being on a AAA team that isn't allowed to take any real risks. The middle ground has been completely eaten up leaving us largely unsatisfied between indies doing their best but being limited to a small scope and the AAA making one of two types of games to varying degrees of quality.

[@SRK_LV]

Trackmania is one of the modern outliers, to a point where it has been my main game for ages now.

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

Very much enjoyed. Like a long interesting Sunday drive thru the back roads.

[@mro9466]

PGR3 and 4 had very interesting mods and gameplay mechanics It's a real shame this franchise died

[@asdfreii]

One of the feelings of those early 2000s games was promise. Grid, NFSU, Gran Turismo, Forza, Burnout and all those others had promise. “If it does this now, imagine what the future could be!” Grid’s multi-modes with massive variety between them, ending the season with Le Mans, all that could be built on. NFSU2’s city and structure. Gran Turismo and Forza with their focus on racing and expanding car lists. Burnout just being FUN. But with very minimal bits here and there they didn’t expand on that promise. Also remember when every racing game had to have nitrous

[@julianmunoz7836]

Nice video, I loved that you used Scan lines and 4:3 and CRT filters.

[@BRZguy]

Tokyo Xtreme Racer was an amazing series that was probably the closest thing to sim street racing. I think it would do amazing now if it was released with the same formula, but modern day enhancements. Graphics obviously, more roads, touge as well as freeway racing, cockpit view, online multiplayer, more dense traffic so you can win races by outdriving your opponents, etc. Basically like the assetto corsa freeway racing but with a dedicated progression system and social aspect to it. I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

[@myogg]

Your recent videos have been great, keep it up

[@buckroger6456]

I use to love racing games. The 90s racing games is where my love is still at. For me the PS1 has some of the all time greats, like all the ridge racer games, especially R type 4.

[@autbo]

I miss the days of smaller, more fun focused and unique racing games, especially those back in the PS2 years. There was one game that stood out to me back then that not a whole lot of people know about, and it wasn't rated very well, but it's a game that I hold dearly due to one unique feature it had. The game is Test Drive 2002 (or Test Drive Overdrive in the EU) . Despite the physics and graphics being quite "meh", the game had a simple yet enjoyable story with entertaining characters and an interesting dialogue system. Your character, Dennis Black, frequently talked to the other characters and was usually a smartass. There was very few cutscenes in the game, rather most of the dialogue took place in the "Vidi Mail" interface in your car. Essentially like facecams with a mic inside every racer's car. The exchanges between characters usually happen before and after races, and it gives off this feeling that I am actually a part of this gang of racers. This game gave me an idea for an interesting spin on the racing game genre. I would love to see a street racing type of game where the choices you make and your skills determine the path you take in the story. In most racing games, if you mess up you can simply restart the race after you lose with no consequences. In this hypothetical game, there wouldn't be such a thing as a restart. If you lose, you lose, got it? And the story will change depending on that. The dialogue between your character and the other characters would take place in a similar way to Vidi Mail so no need for special and expensive cutscenes, except for this game you have a choice in what you can say. You can choose who you want your enemies and friends are from from your dialogue choices and your racing skills. Additionally, you would build up a list of contacts and initiate conversations and challenges, or even team up with other racers. Maybe even have events where you can have the opportunity to lend, sell, or buy a car from another racer. Let's say a racer who you became friends with totals his car, and asks if he can borrow one of your cars. You will be able to deny; give him a subset of cars he can pick from; or maybe he asks for a specific car; etc. You as the player should also be able to ask for another racer to lend their car to you. In TD 2002, there was a moment in the story where you win a pink slip race against Hamada, and Hamada felt very shameful that he had to give up a car that wasn't even his, it was his friend's. This would be the PERFECT opportunity to let the player choose to take the car, or let him have it. In the game, Dennis let him keep the Supra. But what if Dennis took the Supra? What would transpire? Essentially the racing game that I dream of is a very character-focused and story-focused racing game with a mix of Telltale Games-style branching storylines, maybe even procedural if possible. This is a racing game that nobody has really made yet and it's something I would LOVE to play.

[@astrarobotica]

Racing games 20 years ago (like the first four Gran Turismo games) had mainstream popularity because: -there were less games on the shelf compared to the age of digital downloads -the quality of games was all over the place so great games like Gran Turismo stood out more -the variety of genres being produced was much wider than today so people were willing to try different types of games -publishers were interested in funding a wide variety of games When I was a kid we had a PS1. We had NFL Gameday 98 as well as some NASCAR game. I didn't give a shit about either of those sports but I still played those games a lot! We also 1Xtreme, a weird Road Rash-style game but with extreme sports, Coolboarders 3, Jet Moto 2... Racing games (and sports games in general) are niche titles these days because publishers spend all of their money on open world loot shooters that take at least five years to produce. They have gone all-in on the two or three genres that make the most money and don't give a shit about anything else. Games are bigger and generally of a higher quality now than twenty years ago, but they take much longer to produce, and they take resources away from other projects. So we get bigger, typically better games, but a smaller variety in general. Mainstream racing games were a casualty of that.

[@Likwidfox]

I have over 1000hrs into Dirt 1+2 it never gets old to me, and when it does its VR time. Forza Horizon VR would be crazy.

[@vinching926]

It felt so Quantum Leaping for those racing games, or any other genre in general in the 90s thru early 00s because of the console limit, the difficulty of making photorealistic cars and tracks with healthy amount of polygons, they have to really focus on what they can do for the most immersive experience for players in that era, even some crappy games / ports on console had the top of the line music that old console players would never forget. GT7 era those things comes with less value and can't brainwash everyone already having way too much things to play with.

[@IkusaGT]

20:35 You're not even gonna touch on GRID? That was a massive title for Codemasters back in 2008.

[@oktc68]

Pole Position, I loved that game as a youth, these days I still get enormous pleasure from sim racing, Sure sims can be a bit clunky but there's so much content, much of it free, got to be some of the best value gaming going. Thanks enjoyed seeing the old games again.

[@zippo71111]

Damn i remember playing through sega rally on the saturn back in the day, i thought it would have more cars and replayed the game countless times hoping to unlock any of the cars the opponents used thinking there was a secret to unlocking more. I saw someone mention midtown madness 2, that game for me was so much fun back in the day. Free roaming with the freedom of customizing traffic density, cops and population was really special. Another hidden gem for me was world racing, driving off track and exploring what felt like massive maps.

[@jonredcorn862]

Kinda blown away by how good those graphics on whatever that sega genesis racing game was, they looked at least ps2 era while everything else looked like a ps1 game. Never got to own one back in the day.

[@TomHenksYT]

I grew up with racing games. The earliest one I remember playing was the original NFS Hot Pursuit (aka NFS3 if I remember correctly). Following that was Colin McRae Rally 2 along with lots of smaller indie titles whose names I can't remember but I had fun nonetheless. And then came NFS Underground 1, and I thought it was the greatest game ever. The amount of customization you got was awesome for the time, the cheesy rival stories were fun and added to the immersion, the rankings you had to climb during the story added a certain feeling of purpose and once tuning parts were installed it didn't seem to matter which car you picked because they were all relatively similar in overall performance. You could choose whichever car you liked best and still win, while also having the customization options to make it look like uniquely yours. Then came Underground 2 and it did everything that Underground 1 did, but bigger and better and with open world racing. Sadly I didn't get my parents to buy my a copy at the time, but what I did get was a game that was IMO highly underrated and I never see anyone mention it: the Fast and Furious Tokyo Drift game for PS2. It was basically like NFSU2, but played in Japan. It had good graphics for the time, and the drifting up and down the togue roads of Japan was amazing. It had the Wangan highways too for if you liked faster paced races. A few years later came NFS Undercover which I got for PS2 and looking back, I'm thankful for that because later on I tried the PC version and it was garbage. But I really enjoyed the PS2 game, except for the ridiculous rubber banding in the highway battles. Other than that I had fun though. But the best experience I had for a long time was when TDU2 came out in 2011. I remember pre-ordering it and physically walking to a GameStop store in town to pick up my copy when it launched. TDU2 to this day I think still looks good and has a unique kind of ambience. Not only can you drive on 2 real-world islands that have the entire road network mapped out, but it was the many little things that TDU2 added, the attention to detail, that made it much more involving. For example, for anything you wanted to do outside of racing, you had to drive somewhere and enter a building. To buy a new car, you'd look around the showroom, walk around the car from all angles, and then you could choose the paintjob, the wheels and the interior for the car you wanted. These days to buy a car in a racing game, you open the menu, select the car and click OK, it's a very sterile thing. In TDU2, you could also customize your character like in some other racing games at the time (and after), but in TDU2 you had to go to the surgeon and once you were done customizing your face, your character would wear a face bandage for some time. It's things like that (and the unique car purchasing experience etc.) where you truly build up an emotional connection to your actions in game, and I think that this sense of involvement has gone completely missing in more recent games. More recently I play Forza Horizon 5 which can be fun with friends but by myself it's not that fun, it doesn't get me hooked nearly as much as TDU2 did. And I play Automation and BeamNG, only in combination with each other. Automation allows you to build your own cars and then export them to BeamNG and drive them. BeamNG may not be the greatest simulator out there but the physics are getting pretty good and there are tons of mods for it, including real-world 3D scanned race tracks. So you can build your own crazy race car in Automation and then drive it on a real world track in BeamNG. That's pretty cool and I've had good fun with this as well. But the other racing games out today have mostly been very disappointing. I'm hoping TDU Solar Crown will be good.

[@Verticen_]

Enduro was the shit btw, it WAS the 'outrunner at home' experience on the 2600. More polished than 2600 pole position, or really any other 2600 driving game I've played. 2:50 YES Sega was the KING of arcade racing. U should listen to the _Power Drift_ soundtrack! Sega was actually pretty good about making games about going fast when it doesn't involve their primary mascot. 28:27 With VR graphics generally being ~15 years behind due to specs, I think racing games may have a second chance to 'push graphics' again inside an even more immersive experience. VR doesn't have the mass userbase yet though.

[@DribbleP]

Sega rally on the Saturn was truly amazing the handling was just perfect me my dad and brothers all use to try and beat each other for the fastest laps

[@SockyNoob]

Finally, a video from somebody I trust to make a video about this topic.

[@SammEater]

I'm playing right now the Tokyo Xtreme Racer games for PS2 and man I wish we had games like that today.

[@Fredrick2003]

Nice Lakeside run, that slippery bastard got me everytime at the arcade. Playing back up to it was worth all 50 cents though.

[@BadWallaby]

If you miss arcades check out Round 1 ! Now I will admit im not a HUGE fan of how they conduct business, but thats besides the point lol. GLORIOUS ARCADE I NEED IT

[@IronicSonic83]

I just miss sega's arcade magic. Sega Rally Revo, Daytona USA XBLA and Outrun 2 emulation keep me alive. PD: Rush Rally Origins is pretty neat

[@cadejn135]

F zero was such a game, realistically your vehicle wasn't moving very very fast but it felt like we were like the speed of light, I miss f zero

[@IrocZIV]

There are lots of different things people want out of a racing game. I really enjoy the idea of a career mode myself. Back in the original Gran Turismo, I imagined I was an up and coming racer, given just 10k to get my start. I really wish the newer GTs would expand upon that idea of a career that they started with. For just pure racing though, nothing has compared to iRacing for me. I would get so nervous when the race was about to start, and then the endurance it takes to keep up a good pace, all while driving safe really was unique to anything else I have played.

[@LeonardoBruno54]

Thanks for showing TDU some love.

[@pasteghost428]

I'm 44. Pole position was bundled with the Atari 2600. I remember using the paddle for it. Great game.

[@OliNorwell]

18:00 PGR2 is an amazing game, definitely top 100 of all time on any format... yet you're right, we were so spoilt that Gran Turismo was even better.

[@wheeljork]

The word "scud" has a meaning that predates missiles by centuries. In this case though, it likely is a shortening of "scuderia" meaning stable in italian, a word frequently associated with racing in Italy and throughout the rest of the world aside from the US.

[@SiStockbridge]

The very worst thing I still hate to this day about Gran Turismo is that it's supposed to be this all encompassing racing game, yet it has NEVER had qualifying for races. You always start at the back of the grid and therefore nearly every race your car has to be better than the other to make it to 1st place by the end of the race!

[@MashupsByMandy]

My favorite racing games were Top Gear and Lamborghini: American Challenge, both for the SNES, Top Gear kinda ripped off popular cars at the time but never named them to avoid lawsuits, even if the models were obvious for car enthusiasts. The biggest highlight was the concept of racing around the world and having each continent with a theme in regards to track styles. Kinda like Street Fighter 2 but without a local challenger, which in hindsight would have been great to be there. Lamborghini: American Challenge was probably one of the first games that had a vehicle licensed for a video game. It also had a betting and car repair\damage system that would take years to show up on 3D games. It did have race bosses and special challengers depending on how difficult the race was. Both were ahead of their time.