Tactics Ogre vs. Triangle Strategy: A Retro Modern vs. A Modern Retro | Tactical Versus

[@kevin1153]

This man threw up two spicy chicken sandwiches and thought it a good idea to try a third.

[@PriceAintRight]

Nice! I'm currently playing Tactics Ogre myself. 100 hours in, and the paths make it cool. I'm actually planning to restart it. That being said, I adored the demo for Triangle. I love that HD 2.5 look, and they have mounts like in Fire Emblem. I was really engaged with your video and I immediately understood your issue with Tactics Ogre. I'm old (39) and I played Knights of Lodis once or twice as a kid, but I fell in LOVE w/ Final Fantasy Tactics (1997) For us, the map is a badge of honor. Mostly because it starts with just Mandalia Plains and one other spot. The world opens UP and I think it gently introduces you to a larger world. Where I'll agree for sure is that most places are only used once so they feel extraneous. Now I'm gonna see if I can buy Triangle because you moved it up my list by a ton! Great video homie. Subscribed af

[@corvieindo]

I’m planning on playing final fantasy tactics for the first time really soon. I unfortunately missed out on it when I was younger but am excited to experience for myself why it’s so beloved. Also Im glad you’ll be moving Triangle Strategy up you list, it really is a good game. Thanks man!

[@randybobandy9828]

I'm 70 hours in triangle strategy on hard mode. Ogre tactics is my next game. So far I love triangle strategy but it is too story heavy for me... So much dialogue scenes in-between battles. Some might like this but I just want to jump in the action.

[@lloyd011721]

ogre battle 64 is great. i prefer it to unicorn overlord, though i did enjoy that one too. still, my favorite tactics game is FFT for the ps1.

[@Nines45]

Anna is my favourite character in Triangle Strategy

[@zaflame3755]

I don't think TS is critiqued enough in general on its own merit but on how it follow the series that inspired it & don't think that is fair to do. Less customization isn't an actual flaw, but how the game chooses implement trying out different characters & making those characters important.

[@corvieindo]

I feel the same way. It sucks that a lot of people view being derivative as trying be an exact copy. Triangle Strategy does so many things well that it’s sad to see people judge it for what it didn’t do. TS and TO are both strategy games but with wildly different perspectives on the genre. I’m glad they both exist.

[@deathofowl]

i like how u explain all about the system no spoiler good job very good too know ... next steam sale i know what to buy !! 👍👍

[@Bevtone]

I must admit the nostalgia factor with tactics orgre is huge for me, it (along with pokemon) was the whole reason I even got into turn based game's, the entire genre of srpgs wouldn't be the same without it and I think allot of people who never played or even heard of the game don't truly understand the legacy of tactics ogre and impact and influence its had on the genre, triangle strategy was pretty enjoyable and I dont understand the hate, I myself often fall into the trap of comparing every srpg to tactics ogre but that's because it has a pretty big legacy, both good games which a very far apart on the timeline its kind of hard to compare them because you could agrue that with tactics orgre triangle strategy wouldn't exist.

[@corvieindo]

I wholeheartedly agree, after experiencing Tactics Ogre without it Im sure Triangle Strategy wouldn’t exist. That being said I feel like that’s all the more reason as to why they should be compared. Especially when from my point of view people are putting Tactics Ogre on this unreachable pedestal. Like you said they are both good games it just sucks that a lot of people shit on a Triangle Strategy for not being Tactics Ogre.

[@tharmir]

Triangle strategy was so underwelming. it poses as an RPG, but it is not. The story was meh, there where no customization, every class, every skill and weapon is pre made. That means that you can not change anything into the character, justo evolve their weapons and skills through currency and exp. The RPG elements only exist to make the game look longer and more complex while make you grind, but you cant do anything. The choices in the story are a joke, you can just talk to the characters and convince them to vote as you want, so even if it has different paths, you have plenty of space for error and control. That game is an endless running of grind.

[@corvieindo]

What’s your favorite strategy rpg? I swear reading your comment is like looking into an alternate reality where I have every opposite perspective on the game, It’s fascinating.

[@HansAlRachid]

Personally I thought Triangle Strategy lacked charm more than anything - the art didn't grip me, the gameplay and setting were missing... I don't even know what. A special something. I did like that element of the story revolving around salt though! I thought that was a neat, actually reasonable touch that didn't come across like the usual, overblown JRPG nonsense for once. The more I think about it, I believe Squeenix's "2D-HD" artstyle just does not do it for me, is what it is - the filters and overabundance of visual effects just comes across as garish to me. Tactics Ogre meanwhile? Hoo boy. Charm oozes out of every corner of that game. Hell, the art alone would have sold me on this game. Akihiko Yoshida is right up there with Bengus and Kinu Nishimura as videogame illustrators go for me.

[@Simon-gi8yr]

the "player is overwhelmed by all the places on the map" bit really is overdone. lots of places sure, but at all time it's either optional dungeons (2 or 3 most of the time) or main story stuff. easily indicated by the absence of flag, which you undersstand very early...that's like max 4 to 5 places on the map, far from overwhelming. Otherwise i totally get why you did this vid, the TO grognards do be heavy (and a tad unfair...) in their criticisms of newcomer tacticals ! triangle strategy is reaaaally fun. main gripes with it personnally is the grinding through boring training battles, which they alleviated somewhat with their allowing the story battles being replayed. Also the writing is good and the world is fine I wish they went a bit wilder on the fantasy aspects, but in truth not by much. I'll def watch your review when i'm done with the game :DDD (the grinding between story battles...kills me...mainly in terms of them being mock battles without stakes other than loot n leveling)

[@corvieindo]

I never noticed the flag thing in my time with the game. I'm sure it's probably explained at some point and I must have missed it. That definitely changes things quite a bit so thank you for pointing that out. I did not know the World map getting criticism is common because I'm coming from the point of view of not knowing anything about the game. Just compared to other strategy games I've played with world maps it stuck out as something that could have been less complicated. Given I missed the flag indicator I'm pretty much to blame here. As for TS I think its worth the challenge to play without grinding the extra battles if you're into that kind of thing. Even if you lose the story battle you still get to keep your experience points and I could be wrong but I think you keep your items as well. My first playthrough I tried farming and did not care for it at all. I feel like the game gives you enough hidden items in the exploration portions to keep your characters caught up. Also I agree I wish there was just a smidge more fantasy sprinkled in, maybe some beast enemies or something (a roaming danger you know). Do you know what ending you're going for or are you just seeing where things takes you?

[@dantist32]

I loved triangle strategy. New game +, hard mode, deathless run was so delightfully challenging

[@corvieindo]

I recommend doing a regular hard deathless run if you haven’t. It’s one of my favorite ways to experience the game.

[@randybobandy9828]

Damn.. deathless run is wild. I'm on my first play through and chose hard mode and some levels are easy and then there were some that kicked my butt. I'm currently on chapter 20ish about level 33 and the current battle is kicking my butt.

[@Terron29]

Interesting upload. I very much enjoyed both games but by far prefer Tactics Ogre largely because I thought the combat to story ratio was much better. I am much more a gameplay guy than a story guy and Triangle was VERY story heavy. I still enjoyed it but the difference there is enough to make me prefer TO. Both very solid though and I am shocked if people think Triangle is too easy. On hard mode that game has plenty of bite.

[@corvieindo]

Man I super appreciate you taking the time to check out my video and leave this well thought out comment. I personally loved the intensity of Triangle strategy’s story because it made the battles feel more meaningful to me. The game spends a lot of time setting the stage for battles and they always felt worth it. Tactics Ogre really hits the mark on being replayable which given the original came out so long ago I can see why it has such a cult following. The value you get from a game like Tactics Ogre in terms of gameplay is immense. Both games are certified classics in their own right. Thanks again for checking out the video, much love!

[@Terron29]

​@@corvieindo very welcome and yeah spot on. I agree the emphasis on story and set up certainly added a lot of weight to the battles in Triangle indeed. Wonder will we see a final fantasy tactics remaster? 🤔

[@KyuuStarr]

Anyone who thinks Triangle Strategy is too easy looked up the most broken strats on their first playthrough. Meanwhile I had friends who gave up on normal difficulty despite having a lot of experience with strategy games.

[@Terron29]

@@KyuuStarr thank you! I was thinking i must suck coz man hard mode spanked me a bit lol. The way it should be though. Love a challenge

[@KyuuStarr]

@@Terron29 You can tell because they tell on themselves. They’ll say that the game is too easy and then say that Flanagan and Roland are bad, two positioning-based units with a high skill ceiling.

[@radicalbyte]

Tactics Ogre has bad UX but it's one of if not the best game in the genre. A masterpiece.

[@orcbrand]

As an Ogre Battle fan yes this is precisely what we do.

[@envyandselfhatred8197]

I definitely prefer Triangle Strategy over Tactics Ogre. The latter is still really good, but it just doesn't hit the same, I must say. It's true that the TS hate can be quite annoying, I think the nostalgia is blinding some people, from seeing the potential that newer tactical rpgs can have. They could benefit from being more open minded. Despite what others may say, I thought that TS had a good balance between story and battles. For those not satisfied, they could do some mock battles. Having unique characters that actually play completely differently, is a major plus. In TO, there was way too many battles, especially if you add Palace of the Dead or the numerous sidequests. The characters are too much like blank slates, which is less fun to me. Last but not least, TS characters have voice lines in battle, which makes things much more dynamic then one might think. Something you did not mentioned, are follow up and back attacks. You can use it against the enemy, just like they can use it against you. It adds a layer of complexity. Except for the pincer attack skill, TO doen't really have an equivalent system. I prefer the HD-2D of TS, than the more classic style of TO. The portraits are also more expressive and vibrant in Triangle Strategy, Erador or Hossabara is a good example. The music of both is very good, with TS slightly better but I'm biased. I agree that Tactics Ogre could use a hard mode. On my second playthough, I did a no incap run to spice things up, which wasn't too bad save for a few maps. It was still easier than hard mode in TS. Questions: Did you forgot to include a story comparison? Will you do the postgame of Tactics Ogre? Could you elaborate a bit on your idea of NG+ for Triangle Strategy? Since I didn't got an answer, am I correct to assume that the Rogue Galaxy video is cancelled?

[@corvieindo]

Succinct and eloquent as always I see. The main reason I started this video was because of the hate but by the end of making it I understood why they love Tactics Ogre so much. It came out during a time when video games were still new and seen as a luxury, because of this a lot of the time games had to be replayed. With that in mind if my choices were between playing a game with a single finite story or something as expansive and replayable as tactics ogre, I’d probably go with the Ogre game. The down side to this are the people who come out close minded seeking to tear down innovation. I definitely hard agree with you that Triangle Strategy’s battle to story ratio felt just right. The unique character system is more appealing because it encourages you to think outside of the box rather than just doing whatever is busted. To your point about the characters voice line quips I definitely agree. Benedict’s voice lines live rent free in my head. The “Follow my lead” in his Kermit the frog like voice always puts me in a good mood. Just adds a little extra flavor to the game. As for the follow up attacks you’re right. i definitely should have touched on that because truth be told while I love the system and what it brings to the game I feel like it could have used some damage adjusting on hard mode. The enemy follow up attacks feel just ever so slightly too strong. Witnessing Erador, my TANK die to only like three to four enemy attacks is a little bullshit. I know it’s meant to add complexity and make you heavily consider your positioning but sometimes you can’t make an angle. I don’t know if you’ve ever done the Rufus colosseum battle but that one is just ridiculously hard to do deathless. If any of the soldiers follow up off of Rufus whoever gets hit is likely dead. Rufus can actually almost one shot Frederica with his ranged attack that he can do every turn. It can be frustrating and not in the good way. My rant aside I agree with your thoughts about the HD 2D Triangle Strategy is so much fun to look at. Going from playing Triangle strategy to Tactics ogre visually was definitely a shock. To a certain degree I understand why, Tactics ogre was visually designed to be played on an older Tv where it’s saturated color pallets probably look much nicer. Eventually the designs grew on me but it took some time before I could look at the game without my eyes feeling like that wanted to throw up. To answer your questions: I didn’t want to do a story comparison because that’s something that just seems to subjective. I felt not well equipped to talk about it especially considering Tactics ogre has multiple endings just like Triangle Strategy. Not to mention Tactics Ogre has lore from other games that tie into the whole story so it would be a massive undertaking to try and fully comprehend. Odds are I won’t be picking up Tactics Ogre for a while but I may get the urge. For the New game plus idea I’d like a “blank slate” for everything minus the inventory. The characters would have all of their upgrades removed and put back at level 1. Then I would like all of the materials from said upgrades returned to your inventory. That way you’re free to fill out the characters upgrade charts as you please on a second play through. It would give the feeling of a power fantasy but remain balanced. It still bothers me I never finished those upgrade charts lol. Lastly the Rogue Galaxy Video is for now cancelled. Nostalgia fogged my memory from remembering how bad the game can be. I kid you not at some point I fell asleep while actively playing the game because the dungeons are so bad. I actually finished the game and wrote a lot of the script but I just couldn’t find a way to make it interesting. I never replied because at the time I was working through the script for this video. I was having some motivation troubles until you started asking about the Rouge Galaxy video which greatly inspired me. I tried to release the video quicker as a cheeky response to your question but I sorta missed the mark. As always I appreciate your thought provoking comments and thanks for checking it out.

[@envyandselfhatred8197]

Thank you for the compliment, I appreciate it. I think I'll add my insight over some parts of you comment. I understand your point about Tactic Ogre's replayability. Triangle Strategy has mutiple paths as well but it does have a lot less battles to play. So you do have a better ratio between the money spent and the hours needed to complete the game, when it comes to TO. I just listened to a compilation of Benedict's voice lines, and it's true that his “Follow my lead” line sounds a bit strange. I wouldn't have thought of Kermit but it's still funny enough. My personal favorite line, is Erador's “Look at me learnin”. He says it when he levels up, I love it everytime. Hard mode has a multiplier like this: take 1.5x, deal 0.75x. Normal has 1x on both fronts so it is more balanced, or normal if you will. Hard mode is inherently unfair by design which a lot of the fun comes from, outwitting your opponents despite insurmountable odds. Now, it's true that the arena fight with Rufus can seem a bit too unfair. If I remember correctly, Flanagan's weapon skill: Rampart, is what helped me the most to do the map in deathless. It is extremely good in cramped areas. Erador can distract and Roland can help him push enemies in the spikes, to have less to deal with. Nevertheless, your frustration is valid. You could have done a story comparison even if it is subjective. You would simply need to start by precising that it is your own imperfect opinion. It doesn't bother me that you did not want to make that comparison. I was just curious if it was a deliberate decision or not. I'm not not sure if I would recommend the post game or the long sidequests if you are not that motivated, However, you should absolutely do all three alignment paths. Namely lawful, chaos and neutral. If the gameplay in the video is yours, it seems that you did the chaos path. Correct? In short, your NG+ idea is like the current model, except that your units reset at level 1 with only their starting ability. Also, you can go in a different way to upgrade your weapons, instead of simply continuing what you already picked in the previous playthrough. It's nice to know the whole truth surrounding Rogue Galaxy. Of course, there's no need to force yourself to do something that you don't want to do.

[@corvieindo]

I never knew about how the damage multipliers worked so that’s very interesting. I played on a fresh save for every playthrough, except for world free of sin). My conviction choices lead me to having sort of a mixed bag of characters when dealing with Rufus. I could also be misremembering but by the point on a new save I don’t think you have access to the upgraded weapon skills making that fight just really tough. I remember being around level 15 I think. I appreciate your insight around stating the imperfect opinion idea. I feel like because I haven’t experienced all of the routes for Tactics Ogre I can’t see the story as a whole like I do for Triangle Strategy. Comparing something whole to a single part just didn’t feel right in my mind. Since you’re recommending the other paths I will make time to play through them. Also yes that is me playing through chaos. Yup, that’s exactly how I would like my new game plus. I know it sounds a bit strange but I feel like it would give me the most fun experience. Imagine being able to play with Milo or Maxwell from level 1 and see their abilities open up to you over a longer playthrough. Plus the mental mock battles could be retained if you want to boost your characters to a higher level and still have that classic power fantasy feel. I’m hoping one day when I’m more seasoned I can return to the Rogue Galaxy video and make something good of it. As of right now I have an almost finished script for a game called Redemption Reapers. Have you heard of it? Honestly you seem pretty hardcore when it comes to srpgs so I feel like the game would be right up your alley. It just starts a little slow :)

[@envyandselfhatred8197]

I learned recently about the multipliers, I wrongly assumed that enemies in hard mode simply had higher stats for a long time. Yeah, in NG+ you have much more characters with much more tools to work with. Out of Flanagan, Groma and Maxwell, I usually only get two of them by the end of a fresh playthough. In my first one, I didn't get Maxwell and in my second one I didn't get Flanagan. So indeed, that map with Rufus would be hell in NG hard deathless, because of the lack of options. Sidenote, I thought that Maxwell was a story recruit at first because I got him right after Roland left the party, at chapter 17. It made sense gameplaywise to fill the void left with a new lancer. Benedict's ending has an insane number of horses, so the effective damage from Maxwell was welcome. I just came up with a name for that segment, it's called, HorseStrategy: Electric Boogaloo. Decent enough. Naturally, I first did the lawful route, ends justify the means and all. I just wish there were more impactful choices like this. A word of advice, if you use the World Tarot, you should probably do a bit of research beforehand to not risk messing it up. In theory it sounds very complicated but in practice it's not too bad. I really like your idea, now i whish that they could implement it in a sequel. I've done 5 playthroughs and only 2 of them were in new game plus. The reason is that I love that my characters have to learn all their abilities again. The sense of progress is much more sastifying in new game. The downside of new game is that you don't get to keep your expanded roster. I think that my ideal NG+ would be just like NG but you get to keep all your characters. This way you can preserve the difficulty of a fresh save, while using characters that could not possibly have been unlocked yet. A personalised NG+ where you decide what you keep or not, would not be a bad idea as well. I actually forgot about the existence of Redemption Reapers until you made me remember it. I had only seen the trailer at the time. I just rewatched it and yeah it looks extremely promising. It seems like a hidden gem, there's not even a subreddit for it. I think I'll really have to try it when I have the time. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

[@corvieindo]

Benedict’s ending really does over do it with the horses. Liberty was my first ending as well. It just made the most sense between the three options. The Electric Boogaloo got a good chuckle out of me lol. The World Tarot definitely seems daunting to me. The first time I looked at it I saw all of the potential ways I could screw up my save or get lost. I slowly decided to put it down. Also I agree the feeling of progression is so satisfying which is why I didn’t care for new game plus. It would be cool to have Milo at level 1 on a new game and experience her ability progression over a longer playthrough.

[@yuyubugs36]

Great video I was laughing the whole time fr keep it up!

[@blueseanewt2138]

Tactic Ogre is very intense and I love the story, my biggest issue with it is actually that i can't tell what tiles you are able to move through with which units.

[@corvieindo]

I had this problem early on but eventually got used to it. I think it was the color of the tiles for me. Either they blended in with the stage or I couldn’t see the available angle.

[@Rubikant]

Triangle Strategy, because it is a tactics game and TOR is a team-building game, and tactics and challenge matter to me. I feel like those that claim TS is the "casual" experience confuse complexity with difficulty. TOR is certainly more complicated, but not at all a difficult game, and I can prove it. Quickly into playing TOR I noticed how easy it seemed compared to TS, so I decided to test it with an experiment using 2 simple rules: 1) No "named" units (except forced ones obviously) because I heard they were OP, and 2) always use the auto-battle feature on all my units. Yes, that's right, I didn't actually control my units at all, I just let the AI do it. At first, there were a few close calls and I restarted a few battles. But once I had 2 clerics and remembered to switch them between undead-killing and healing setups for each fight as appropriate, I not only never lost a battle but never perma-lost a unit either. The only challenge was deploying the correct units based on what enemy I was fighting. I even went through like 30 floors of the mega dungeon this way before finally getting too bored to continue watching the game played for me. My balanced team of generic starter units just continued to become more powerful faster than the enemy did, with their access to better gear and optimized ability setups. I didn't even need to use most of the more advanced units (or even had access to some of them, since auto-battle was no good for stuff like capturing monsters and whatnot or recruiting characters with special conditions). This is the complete opposite of TS on Hard, where every individual enemy unit was more powerful than any of my units, and thus the only way to win was using superior tactics. TS doesn't even have an auto-battle feature, but if it did there's no way I'd be able to win using it like I could in TOR, because the enemy team using the same AI as mine but being more numerous and more powerful means they'd always win. This is why I say TOR is a team-building game more than a tactics game, because your tactics don't matter anywhere near is much as your team makeup. If you want a game focused on training up a powerful team to stomp your enemies with for most of the game, TOR is for you! If you prefer to actually have to carefully plan your moves, with every one of your units being important and bringing unique options to the playing field, TS is easily the better game (at least on Hard mode, which is the only mode I played). Yes, there are some broken overpowered combos in TS, but you're unlikely to run into them without looking it up online, whereas in TOR it is very easy to build an OP team without even needing any of the secret recruits. I agree though that TOR has a much stronger start than TS - I almost didn't play TS at all because the demo didn't impress me with how boring the opening story and first few fights are (and because I played the demo on Normal difficulty). But I went back to it and delved deeper and switched to Hard mode after seeing some more positive press about it, and it went on to become my GOTY and my second-favorite TTRPG of all time! So, anyone reading this that thought it was too slow-paced and casual from the demo, the story really picks up if you give it enough time and it is actually much more difficult in the actual battles than TOR or FFT is if you switch it to Hard mode!

[@corvieindo]

Thank you for sharing your unique experience with the games. I never messed around with the AI options in TOR so it’s interesting to hear how it all works. I really like your perspective of TOR being more like a team building game. There were too many times where I just didn’t have the correct elements making some stages such a slog to get through. I hated having to adjust a characters element with the charms and I loathed the idea of having to have multiples of the same unit type just because of elements. I mean can you really call it Tactics if you’re just scouting the battlefield and placing units that counter the enemies. Sure it’s a strategy but did it really feel satisfying? It feels like the outcome of a battle is decided before you even start. A battle against multiple dragons without a dragoon sounds like a nightmare. Same as a battle against undead with no way to exorcise them. There’s a ton of hard wall enemies with no way around them if you didn’t plan for them in team select meaning you’re just shit out of luck for those battles. Nothing made me want to put down the controller more than that. On the other hand I agree wholeheartedly with you about Triangle Strategy. It was my game of the year and probably favorite TRPG of all time. Which makes me want to know whats in your number one spot?

[@Rubikant]

@@corvieindo My favorite is a very old game that, like TS, was compared against its contemporaries as being too "simple" and thus never really became popular. However, also like TS, the reason I love it is because it focuses even more on the tactics side, and even less on the team building side. Even its own sequels went in a different direction, so only the original game is really worth playing. That game is Vandal Hearts for the PS1. So in Vandal Hearts, like in TS, every one of your units is a unique character, with no "generic" units like in TO/FFT. In fact, in each fight, the units you have available is predetermined by the story. There is no effective way to "grind levels" between story battles either, and the XP system works like in TS where you will quickly catch a character up to the current level, but have a very hard time earning enough xp to go beyond that until the next fight. Equipment is simply number upgrades and very few options for getting equipment more powerful than what is in stores - which you will almost always be able to afford the best gear for all your units anyway. All this means is that for each fight, your unit's power level is basically fixed and known by the devs. In exchange for all those limitations, *every single fight in Vandal Hearts is a very unique, hand-crafted scenario*. After the couple intro fights there's basically no such thing as a "standard battle" in the game. And I don't just mean unique in terms of terrain and positions and enemy types (which is also true - you often fight completely different enemies and there's much more variety than in TS due to monsters being a thing instead of only soldiers). I mean your objectives and challenges are often very different. Ambushes, escapes, defending, rushes, special stage gimmicks, etc. Some are SO unique that I have yet to see any other TTRPG do anything similar, so I don't want to spoil them here just in case you play the game at some point. Just know that in every fight you will need to adjust your tactics and adapt to the unique scenario you'll face. The story and animations are also fantastic. Obviously it will look dated now, but I believe at the time it was the first TTRPG to combine 3D polygon environments with 2D sprites for the characters - just like TS does. The one major way you can customize your team is that each character (except for the main protagonist) can choose part-way through the game between 2 different class paths. These paths are significantly different from each other though, like being an archer vs a flying melee unit, or a wizard vs a monk. So there's still enough customization from this one aspect that I've beaten the game a half dozen times and had a unique experience each time tackling all the different scenarios with different class setups. At the same time, this being really the only customization option means I'm not wasting a bunch of time in menus shuffling around gear and elements and ability loadouts and so on. I admit it is a bit easier than TS on Hard mode since, sadly, there is no difficulty option. Many scenarios are still very challenging though, especially compared to team-building-and-grinding focused TTRPG's like TO and FFT, simply because there's really no viable option to just power your team to victory. In terms of pure numbers, the enemy almost always has the advantage in unit numbers and power (and often even terrain), so your tactical choices are the only tool you have to overcome the odds.

[@corvieindo]

This is like the second time I’ve heard about Vandal Hearts. I’m definitely going to have to add it to my ever growing list of games to play. I checked out some of the gameplay, so far it looks really interesting and right up my alley. Thanks for the suggestion.

[@serfillustrated4018]

I'm not going to read your whole post. Because making an argument about difficulty while using A.I. to play for you is about the dumbest argument I've possibly ever heard. You just made flat earthers look reasonable. smh

[@Rubikant]

@@serfillustrated4018 A game like this shouldn’t even have an auto-battle feature IMHO… I’m certainly not advocating its use for actual gameplay. You claim my argument is dumb yet provide no counter-argument, nor even an explanation on how exactly my experiment is flawed. Classic ad hominem circumstantial fallacy there. My whole argument is that in-combat tactical maneuvers don’t matter nearly as much as your team makeup does in games like TOR. What better way to test that hypothesis than pitting the game’s AI against itself? If my team consistently wins, team makeup must matter more than tactics and the player team must be at an advantage. If my team usually loses, it mean that the enemy has the advantage and the only way to win would be to use superior tactics compared to what the dumb AI uses. If it was about a 50/50 win rate, than that would indicate that team makeup and tactics have about equal impact on player success. Using the auto-battle feature like that was simply part of the basics of any good experiment - eliminate variables! This experiment proved to me that in TOR, the player has the advantage (unless they suck at building a decent team), able to play as stupidly as the AI’s team does in the actual fights and still win anyway. In the games I’m contrasting it to, the opposite is true - using the same basic dumb tactics as the enemy would result in the player’s team losing, because the player's team is at a disadvantage even when their team is built optimally. I'm not saying TOR is a bad game, and I'm clearly in the minority for preferring TS. I'm just saying that I personally prefer TTRPG's that focus on tactics more than team building (as rare as they are), and TOR is obviously a team-building-focused game (like most TTRPGs) that was too easy for my taste when I played it without using AI, and I proved my team always had the advantage anyway when I ran my experiment using the AI feature. EDITED to make shorter (as hard as that is to believe).

[@cowsticker9618]

I will say Triangle Strategy's hard mode really sucks in some stages, feeling like a slog, such as the Avlora fights and the Rosellan village fight against the Glenbrook duke and his mercs. Otherwise I really like Triangle Strategy! You also die really easily in Triangle Strategy in hard mode, kind of absurdly so.

[@corvieindo]

Im actually on the opposite side of this, the Avlora fights and the Rosellan village maps are two of my favorites. I consider most them defense maps so maybe those just aren’t your jam. I will admit the Avlora maps are long but there are ways to end some of them quickly. You do die very easily in hard mode but that’s kind of what I love about it. The juice is worth the squeeze. Anyways, thanks for sharing your opinion I appreciate it.

[@randybobandy9828]

"coin toss" comes to mind when it comes to instant death.. and "spark" is OP for the AI side.. kills you almost instantly

[@KendelChristensen]

I freaking loved this video. Well done!!

[@corvieindo]

Thank you!

[@el10leo]

I never played TS but I really enjoy the depth of TO. I don't think there's a more customizable trpg/srpg. Maybe Front Mission, which has even slower battles and even more equipment slots to each character.

[@corvieindo]

Disgaes is one of the few srpgs with tons of customization I’ve actually enjoyed. Otherwise I find it a bit tiresome. How do you feel about resource management in strategy games?

[@zephyrgaming8709]

Solid commentary vid that's edited very well, looking forward to more.

[@ericd1022]

Corvie Indo: Your game is shit, and i can prove it mathematically.

[@corvieindo]

Currently preparing my 30 paged manifesto in response.

[@Big_Dai]

I love Tactics Ogre... And I couldn't stand the slowness of Triangle Strategy, and the dull dialogue. The gameplay was decent enough for me to keep it mind for a second chance in the possible future. But people acting like Tactics Ogre didn't practically invent or inspire most of these games is insulting. Considering THE amount of content it had for a SNES game, much less looking the way it did back then.

[@corvieindo]

I understand your love for the game and it really is something to marvel. The amount of content Tactics Ogre provides is amazing especially given the time it came out. I’m personally not the biggest fan of its art direction but I’m sure the original snes game looks amazing (like imagine playing the game on a Trinitron). I had a snes and psp growing up but sadly missed out on Tactics Ogre both times. I’m glad I got to experience now at least. As for Triangle strategy I think it’s worth giving a second chance. If the dialogue bogs you down I’d recommend skipping all of the green side content to save time. I’d also forgo farming unless necessary, skipping it gives you the best experience gameplay and story wise (in my opinion).

[@planescaped]

I found Tactics Ogre to mostly just be proof of concept for FFT personally. It's alright, but Final Fantasy Tactics does nearly everything Tactics Ogre did, better. The only thing TO beats it at, is the unique character's. The routes are nice but I don't see them as a pro or con, just a design choice. Tactics Ogre walked so FFT could run.

[@cwatz1221]

Both kick ass. Tactics Ogre law path is my favorite story in gaming.

[@planescaped]

I played both and found both to be sold 7/10's. If I had to pick one over the other... I'd probably go with Triangle Strategy. While it has less options, the gameplay feels much more satisfying. They both have equally great stories. But both really started to drag as they went on IMO. Overall I enjoyed Triangle Strategy more though. Now give us a fixed/updated FFT: War of the Lions on Switch/PC dammit so we have a game with the best story and best gameplay! D:

[@corvieindo]

I’m so excited to play FFT because so many like yourself hold it in high regard. I’m really hoping to be blown away.

[@Man-sy2he]

After finishing Final Fantasy Tactics, I got to know about Tactics Ogre, I give it a try multiple times but I always get overwhelmed and never finished it

[@corvieindo]

I’d say give it another try, it’s definitely worth finishing. Maybe try playing while referring to a guide? I don’t feel like it takes away too much. Have you tried Triangle Strategy?

[@erabbit777]

For me it was TOR. I like the depth of the combat system. Including friendly fire and ability to heal enemies. TS was good too but more of a Need for Speed to TOR's Gran Turismo

[@corvieindo]

I really like the need for speed to Gran Turismo comparison. They’re both great games and it’s easy to see why someone would prefer one over the other. Gran Turismo has depth and high quality customization that comes at the cost of being mired with menus. Need for speed(depending on which we’re talking about) is much less complex but it’s simplicity’s and strong core gameplay always make for a fun time. A very good comparison, thank you.

[@derrickhairston9084]

What is the game hes playing at the beginning of the video?

[@corvieindo]

Redemption Reapers

[@ZenKrio]

Tactics Ogre is the better game for sure, in saying that, to suggest that Triangle Strategy isn't harder is silly. Triangle Strategy is fair in it's difficulty, Tactics Ogre CAN be harder, but it's all artificial, they cap your level and let enemies have both 3 to 15 levels over you because we can't just make a fair game, they also give most bosses 4 skill cards that allow them to nearly one shot your guys, that isn't difficulty, it's just stupid. Triangle Strategy however is a game i didn't like, every character is one note, Class Promotions are useless and don't do anything, and there are no generic characters, and I really hate TBS games without generic characters and class systems, it's why I don't care for Fire Emblem, Triangle Strategy and others. Tactics Ogre Reborn is a great game, but it needs a sequel or something to really expand it out. It also doesn't help that TO:R locks a lot of content beyond the game itself, so by the time you get some great generic classes, or get your favorite strongest Characters, you've not only beaten the game, youve likely beaten the game a couple of times and most of the post post post game, in fact, you don't get one guy until you beat the Super OP optional dungeon, so it's like, you got this powerful Mage and nothing to hit with it.

[@radicalbyte]

You should check out Unicorn Overlord.

[@corvieindo]

I have just over 100 hours in unicorn overlord. I still haven’t beat it yet, I’m having too much fun.

[@terence7009]

I really, really liked triangle strategy. the story starts slow, but is one of the best ones I've experienced in quite a while, about something that is very different than your usual JRPG fantasy setting. it also has a banger soundtrack. tactics ogre I wanted to love, but as you said, it falls off after a while and is a bit of a struggle to get into. but the story still seems quite good and the branching arcs are quite interesting. I'll certainly give it another go eventually.

[@corvieindo]

Hell yea something about triangle strategy just clicks. What route did you play first?

[@terence7009]

@@corvieindobenedict. it seemed the most practical. the other two you can easily argue as bad endings, but this one wasn't -as- bad.

[@corvieindo]

@@terence7009 That was my exact same thought process for choosing Benedict on my first playthrough. Leaving the people of Wolffort behind to fend for themselves as lord is kind of screwed. The other ending well, slavery bad.

[@terence7009]

@@corvieindo oh yeah roland's route is absolutely chalked up as the straight up bad ending. he gets hard chastised for it.

[@TheRojoLobo]

Sick vid dude! Subbed! What are your top tactics games?

[@corvieindo]

Fire emblem Path of Radiance, Triangle Strategy obviously, and Disgaea 2 specifically the psp version off the top of my head. Shadows of Valentia is pretty badass too. What are some of your favs?

[@TheRojoLobo]

@@corvieindo I have to try path of radiance. My top would be 3 houses, advance wars and xcom. I’m actually playing through tactics ogre and unicorn overlord right now

[@corvieindo]

Nice! I’m playing through unicorn overlord as well. I seen the Xcom series on a good steam sale but couldn’t get it at the time. I’ve always wanted to try it out.

[@BAIGAMING]

11:24 In Tactics Ogre if a character is knocked into a pit then you lose that character permanently! No chance to revive them. I hated this so much. It made me be very careful with positioning my units, even to this day.

[@corvieindo]

I forgot to mention it but I did have it happen to me once in my play through. I dislike that some skills randomly knock back with no explanation as to why (unless it’s a crit). Is it true that the flying units get returned to your party after battle if they’re knocked off?

[@jegorssmirnovs9640]

​@@corvieindo If I remember correctly, apart from crits and guaranteed crits from certain skills and large monster attacks, it usually says about knockback effect in the description. I haven't played the Reborn enough to say, how they changed the systems from PS or PSP versions, but in short in PSP version you had passive buffs for skills like more STR, more RES and so on. One of those was knockback % for basic attacks. When they made reborn, they removed the passive stat skills and as far as I can tell, knockback chance on basic attack is now based on LUK difference between 2 units. Regarding flying units, they don't take fall damage and can't die from falling into pits - they just fly back up the same turn. Lastly, I would recommend trying the PSP version, thats the one I played shit ton when I was a kid, to me it is superior in core aspects of the gameplay, altough it is vastly different mechanically. It focuses on RPG elements a lot more, than reborn, and allows for insanely funny builds and op characters when you have a good grasp on the mechanics. The biggest downside to it are QoL improvements from Reborn that are not present like less tedious crafting and leveling up characters instead of classes, but I find it insanely fun. There is also a great mod for it called One Vision, which rebalances all classes and game elements, which makes the game more consistent and a lot more builds and strategies viable throughout the game, I highly recommend giving it a try.

[@corvieindo]

Damn, thank you for taking the time to explain the knock back formula. I’m sad I never came across the game when I was younger. Emulating the game for another play through does sound fun so I might do that if I’m not feeling lazy.

[@sheldonsookram3581]

Like the review of both games and I appreciate MTG reference

[@corvieindo]

Hell yeah thanks for checking it out! What’s your favorite MTG set? I’ve personally been hoping we can return to Ravnica again for like a fourth time lol

[@sheldonsookram3581]

Ravnica of course, that's when I started learning to play MTG . I'm with you on another Return to Ravnica

[@KayderimGameplays]

What is the name of the first game you're playing in the start?

[@corvieindo]

Redemption Reapers. I’m working on a review for it right now, if you’re into the older fire emblems I feel like you’ll appreciate it.

[@KayderimGameplays]

@@corvieindo Nice, thanks

[@markrave1000]

triangle starts u be playing chess meanwhile with TO u playing was sim

[@corvieindo]

There were times I felt like I was just going through the motions in TO. It just didn’t immerse me like TS but it’s still a great game.

[@Neo-lv6be]

i think most of his problems could've been resolved, part of the strategy is outside of the game. also talks and sounds like a little beach ngl. negative manliness credit score.

[@PriceAintRight]

Wait! Second comment! Maple Story music!!! How old are you??

[@corvieindo]

Im just slightly younger than whatever your guess would be. :)

[@silco5343]

what game was that in the beginning?

[@corvieindo]

Redemption Reapers, I highly recommend it. There’s a review on my channel with a section about the gameplay if you’re interested.

[@Simon-gi8yr]

think your video would also greatly benefit from you tackling tactic ogre's history since its first release :) not to make you compare TS to TO's three (4???nah must be three..) distinct releases, but so viewers can more easily understand the let's say roughness of it. I'd also recommendyou to play person of lordly caliber if you haven't !! rough as well, but plenty fun and unicorn overlord's grand daddy (although i'm pretty sure in UO's case, the grognards claiming superiority of the older game will be far fewer...uo's just that good !!! ohhh i stand corrected xD) oh and symphony of war ! also meant to be a ogre battle 64 hommage, very good indie, standard (subpar?) story but the gameplay is neaaaaaaat

[@corvieindo]

Unfortunately I haven't experienced the other versions for myself so even though I could have looked up the differences it just wouldn't feel genuine to cover it without truly knowing how it feels. From what I've heard there are quite a bit of differences between each version. In hindsight it probably would have been worth it to at least mention relevant differences. Also I appreciate the recommendations Ill check them out.

[@BongH20]

Swag vid

[@corvieindo]

Swag Vibe

[@shiba.robert]

lol jergens

[@MCArt25]

"Which of the two is objectively better" JFC media literacy is dead LOL

[@corvieindo]

Can you explain? :)