Tai Chi Chaun is not a wrestling system (sorry Ramsey Dewey)

[@Das_Pepe]

Yes there are strikes and kicks in Taiji. I still belobe that ist primarily wrestling because what I’ve found so far in applications in sparring with my students came out as wrestling. I’m a Taiji-Instruktor who only learned the hand form. So now I’m trying to recreate it. Sure I’m biased because the only other art I’ve learned is JiuJitsu. But before I saw Ramsey Deweys video I figured that wrestling techniques would make up about I’d estimate at least 70% of Taiji techniques. But then again, I’m a better wrestler than striker so I might be biased. I just never saw a Taiji guy do good in a striking match. Do you have footage of you and your sparing partners where the stringing is visible?

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

It’s kind of like how I say in the video. If you already know some of the grappling aspects (and this could come from other arts) then that is what you are going to see working more easily. If you think about it from an mma perspective, if you only studied Khabib, you’d think mma is about 80% wrestling. If you only studied mcgregor you’d think mma was about 80% striking. In my own sanshou fight that I had at the turn of the century, that fight was mostly striking yet I won through my takedowns. In my mma matches, I trained mostly grappling and yet there was hardly any grappling in any of the three fights I had. I think the strengths that tai chi had when I was training in it came from the ability to both strike and grapple. I’ll tag you in a video I did that has some footage from some tai chi fighters

[@Das_Pepe]

@@indefenceofthetraditionalma yes i agree and I’d love to see this footage and maybe if it’s possible the footage of you in those fights or in sparring. That would be really interesting to see

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

@@Das_Pepe I can’t find the original footage that I had but there’s some footage I use in this video at 1min55secs. It shows a tiny bit of striking and some wrestling. Bare in mind that the striking is what set up the wrestling kzbin.info/www/bejne/goKqnnRmZdCFgKs A for my fights and sparring, I could give you links to those if you want? I should point out that although Tai Chi Chaun is my base, my mma coaches are why o became the best fighter I’ve ever been at 40 years of age. Let me know if you’re interested in seeing them anyway.

[@Das_Pepe]

@@indefenceofthetraditionalma yeah sure I’d love to see that too. I’ve kinda given up finding „the Tai Chi Fighter“ so I’m looking for anyone who has implemented Taiji in their Fighting to find a Taiji-ish fighting style to build my Taiji around.

[@Das_Pepe]

Oh and another thing I wanted to say about your video. Quán means fist in word for word translation but I’ve been told that this only refers to the fact that it is a fighting art based on the „grand ultimate“ principle of yin and yang. One could also argue that you’d have to make a fist to grab something. So just saying it’s a stringing art because of the „Quán“ I think is wrong and I’d say that the strikes and kicks that are in Taiji are in the context of clinch or at least trapping distance. There is always, as I can see it, another contact before the strike or the kick lands

[@ChristianoSts]

once a kid, my teacher taught me CMA must contain 踢打摔拿 (Ti, Da, Shuai, Na) = kicking, punching (striking with hands), wrestling and seizing.

[@surfwriter8461]

That's somewhat right, in my view. But the term used by bjj, MMA, and other combat oriented fighters is "grappling" rather than wrestling. They're somewhat the same but not identical. And you may not know that Tai Chi has in its tradition the saying "the whole body is a hand". That is, any part of the body can be used to "strike" an opponent. So "punching" is also a more limited term. Lots of martial arts utilize elbow strikes, shoulder strikes, wrist blocks and strikes, etc. Tai Chi uses every part of the body in fighting applications.

[@BWater-yq3jx]

I wouldn't say Tai Chi IS wrestling, but I would say it's based in grappling. I would also not say that looking at Tai Chi movements leads most people to think that. Rather the opposite; they perceive only striking, and the grappling aspect is something of a revelation. Obviously there are various striking techniques, but they occur in conjunction with grappling. When you realise this, the hand positions make sense; what looks like a poor guard position is usually the non-striking hand/s with a grip on the opponent. Also, if you look at striking-based martial arts, everything is 'up' - hands up, shoulders up, heels up, stance high. Wrestling is the opposite of this. Tai Chi is clearly more like the latter. Treated as a striking art based in grappling makes sense and can work. Taking that grappling basis away just leaves you with striking that wouldn't work, on anyone. Ever. Also the 'Fist' character best translates to 'unarmed combat'.

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

Im not sure I follow with your description of the wrestling stance. No one I’ve ever wrestled started in anything like a stance I associate with tai chi. Not sure I see what you mean about the guard either. Something we can agree on is that there is striking and wrestling within tai chi. Just like every other martial art that deals realistically with combat

[@BWater-yq3jx]

@@indefenceofthetraditionalma I mean that the taiji stance is more about being grounded; 'rooted' if you prefer. As for the hand positions, take almost any movement as an example; 'holding the ball' where the upper hand is grasping the opponent's wrist, the front heel kick where both hands are held up to the sides - grasping BOTH the opponent's wrists. Makes sense with the grappling, ridiculous without. 😉

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

Wrestlers move like any other fighters. Even heavyweights bounce around. I think too many people focus on the form (which contains strikes and grappling). The form came after the techniques and doesn’t contain footwork or all of the fighting techniques within tai chi chaun.

[@CharlesGorrie]

It’s a wrestling system for those that don’t know any better

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

Absolutely 👍

[@Frari747]

Best answer . He still doesn‘t understand what you really say.

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

@@Frari747 aww, bless you.

[@stephenbonner8419]

For the Chen village arts, I was told it was originally developed for the battlefield and mainly weapons focused, a lot of the original empty hands form was designed to throw

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

Developed for the battlefield and yet no shield or team drills? Or is that contained within the Chen system?

[@iamPROTOTYPE]

weapons are used instead of weights to strengthen connections and mechanics of the art with heavy load in movement. xingyiquan was developed from a spear art.

[@stephenbonner8419]

From what I was told the purpose of a lot of the original trips and throws was the need to throw someone over if they had a weapon, chen style has a lot of techniques to unbalance and trip someone over and I was told it's more this purpose originally, anyway I agree it's only a part of the art

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

@@stephenbonner8419 I absolutely agree with throws being far more beneficial from a weapons perspective. My question was genuine about the kind of drills that would be needed for war. As for the other guys comment about strengthening tendons, etc, to an extent I agree with them. I’ve certainly seen bagua teachers training with hugely oversized dao for this reason. I just think it’s too simplistic for the whole answer. Why weapons? Why do the weapons have such practical applications? Again, I’d suggest people ignoring that probably have too little understanding of their art

[@stephenbonner8419]

@@indefenceofthetraditionalma Chen Wangting was a general, he took some of the military martial arts and put into the family art that they needed for defending themselves from bandits or providing bodyguarding services for caravans....not really full on war, I haven't ever seen shield or team training. I think weapons can be used for practising issuing power especially the spear, we also a Bang (short stick) for tendon training for grip strength

[@junichiroyamashita]

I read in a Mantis Boxing site how Chen Taijiquan and Yang Taijiquan are actually two different martial arts,called respectively Pao Quan (Cannon Fist) and Mian Quan (Cotton Fist)

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

Sounds about right

[@arcfide]

I think to be a little more refined in the argument, there's a strong case to be made that the first form in Chen family Taijiquan is almost entirely devoted to grappling or "attached striking" motions, and a significant number of the traditional writings around the application of Taijiquan includes a lot of discussion about grappling applications, or what we would today consider grappling. Of course, our present day distinction between grappling and striking doesn't necessarily apply to traditional arts. Many of the "striking centric" Chinese arts describe motions (when those applications are written out) that we might actually classify as at least partly grappling based. Additionally, while I think the first form is pretty strongly in favor of grappling or "sticky" techniques, I think you would be hard pressed to argue that the second form (Cannon fist) in Chen style Taijiquan is not mostly striking based. While there is striking in the first form and grappling in the second, I think the first one is clearly more of a "grappling" form and the second clearly more of a "striking" form. However, that doesn't mean that the forms have to perfectly align with what our modern day idea of striking and grappling are. Thus, I think it's most accurate to say that the initial training set of Taijiquan is heavily focused on grappling, and most of the training exercises that have continued to be associated with Taijiquan (such as pushing hands) are strongly grappling focused. Of course, that doesn't mean that the rest of it isn't there, but I think it's accurate to say that it's a "grappling first" sort of art.

[@ChristianoSts]

and I think it's easier to find dynossaur's fossiles than video demos of taichi as fighting art

[@jethrosutter2331]

Ramsey also explains in his videos why weapon combat mixes well with wrestling and why samurais for example practice jiu jitsu as a secondary art. Also he explains that the fist in chinese doesnt necessarily mean striking with a fist but the fight signifies any type of combat in chinese culture. Im not 100% sure but thats what i remember from his videos.

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

I think he ignores techniques like ‘step back to strike the tiger’ and ‘step up parry and punch’ to name two

[@leonardomarquesbellini]

​@@indefenceofthetraditionalmaI've never seen credible interpretations of those rhat weren't primarily grappling moves.

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

@leonardomarquesbellini you’ve never seen credible interpretations of parry and punch? How would you turn a parry and a punch into a grappling move?

[@mihailsafronov3599]

@@indefenceofthetraditionalma It can be said more simply. Tai Chi Quan does not involve working in boxing striking exchanges, even though there are strikes. Approaching with a strike (or a strike's series), often with a catch or unbalance; if that was not enough, a throw and finishing. And if you have a weapon in your hands, often when breaking through a short distance, various rollovers can be used if it is not convenient to hit with a weapon.

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

@@mihailsafronov3599 thank you for your answer. I don’t feel like that was simple and still doesn’t explain how tai chi chuan is a grappling art

[@Tempest2228]

What I have learned from analyzing taijiquan is that it is a mixed martial art. Most versions I see have longfist, crane, snake, modified shuai jiao, and kuai jiao, qigong breathing methods, and finally lots of weapons. We have to keep in mind things such as body types, even more mixing of various methods, family methods.

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

Can I ask what your training background is?

[@Tempest2228]

@In Defence of the Traditional Martial Arts My background is very checkered. I spent most of my younger years practicing sport wushu. Later on in life, I had contact with a teacher who taught Xingyiquan, baguazhang and chen taijiquan. His focus was Xingyiquan though as it was what he had been training in the longest and felt he was the most proficent at. I've been fortunate enough to try out many different martial methods, including wushu sanda, kyokushin karate and Dutch kickboxing.

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

@@Tempest2228 awesome stuff

[@Tempest2228]

@In Defence of the Traditional Martial Arts Thank you! The more I practice the more I understand what Bruce Lee was getting at. While it's an oversimplification, all martial arts are more alike than different. So much so that people don't believe sanda is Chinese kung fu.

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

@@Tempest2228 I’ve made videos about the fact that all good fighting generally looks the same. It’s just the training that’s different

[@EliteBlackSash]

We’re already practicing a rebrand. Chen never called it Tai Chi - they adapted the name. So, Yang Lu Chan rebranded it first with a mixture of Shaolin stuff he learned prior. Then Yang Cheng Fu rebranded it as a Health Practice and National Pride (without the applications). Then one of their students rebranded it with the name, “Tai Chi Chuan.” Also, “Fist” doesn’t refer to striking either - it’s just a naming convention. The Boxer Rebels all named their organizations, Something Something “Fist” - and they all road into battle with giant knives. They weren’t punching anybody lol “People can’t get the applications to work,” as you mention… because It IS wrestling. Wrestling with strikes. But Chinese Jiao Li Wrestling is not Western Wrestling. It ALWAYS had strikes - and still does. Baoding Style “Combat Shuai Chiao” is one ‘modern’ example. It is different from the Chinese Wrestling SPORT. Have you ever attended a tournament in Chen Village? It is stand-up grappling. Nowadays They train San Da for their striking system. Chen Wangting was a Ming Era soldier. Commander of the Wen County garrison, and a distinguished security guard for caravans. He wasn’t doing too much Punching and Kicking, we can be SURE of that. Why does it have Spear and Saber? Well, what was the Military’s curriculum? WRESTLING, Weaponry, Archery, Horseback, Weight Lifting, and limited extractions from other clan systems. Not a matter of opinion. What did the actual Ming General Qi Ji Guang’s document as being the training curriculum, in his own words? - Wen Family 72 Step style, 36 Joint Locks, 24 Throws of the Mounted Scout, 8 Dodging Turns, and 20 Short Hits. - Lu hong’s 8 take downs - Cotton Fist (Close Range Hits) - ShanDong’s Li BanTian’s kicks (“kick” includes sweeps and trips) - Eagle Claw Wang’s grappling - 1,000 throws of Zhang’s throwing method (not literally 1,000 lol probably just means ALOT of throws) - Zhang BaiJing’s striking. - The staff methods of Shaolin Temple and QingTian - The Yang Family Spear - The Baozi style staff. Not only is wrestling and grappling FAR more prominent. BUT, General Qi Ji Guang ALSO added a very specific note about the unarmed strikes: QUOTE: “Unarmed combat seems to offer nothing in the way of the preparation for large scale war, but the exercising of the hands and feet forms habits for moving the limbs as a unit, making this practice a doorway to learning the art (of war). This chapter is provided last to complete the preparation of skills.” ENDQUOTE The strikes were there to use for line drills. Not for the battlefield. Every culture on Earth - Japanese, Europeans, Mongolians, Indians, Filipinos, Malay, etc etc etc.. they all documented armed combat with grappling and disarms. NONE of them document “cannon fisting” or “one inch punching” the guy whose trying to stab you to death. That is not even to mention that the Ming put together it’s first firearm brigade in like 1598. The big confusion with KungFu is the fact that people erroneously started calling it, “Chinese Boxing.” It is the same for Southern styles… the Okinawans / Japanese swear by the Chinese Wu Bei Zhi (Military Manual) aka The Bubishi, which documents the major styles: Taizu, White Crane, Lohanquan. Out of the 34 Highlighted Techniques, something like 28 of them are grappling, evasion and groundfighting. So, then what does that say about the mentioned arts??? Well. You see the result. People literally think pulling their hand to their hip is for power generation SMH when Hiki-Te is Pulling Hand. Pulling WHAT? Your Enemy! Lol not your own body General Qi Ji Guang also addresses your coaches point about did Traditional Arts spar: “Those that have learned this must test themselves against an enemy. Do not be ashamed or elated of the outcome, instead, ponder why you were victorious or how you were defeated. Make a concerted effort and experiment for a long time. When one is apprehensive their art is shallow, excellent fighting surely decides the essence of the art” The general himself advocating for sparring. Lastly, we ALSO know that most of the arts that are from 1700 and later.. are influenced by the Qing Dynasty. Including “Tai Chi” since Yang Lu chan worked for the Qing. What is the Manchurian’s cultural martial art? Boku Wrestling. If any Man wanted to become a high ranking officer, what did they based their highest honors on as far as fighting skill? The Imperial Palace Guard Unit aka Shan Pu Ying (善扑营, literally the, “Expert in Wrestling” Unit) So, Ming or Qing Dynasty, we know what the standard was, without following our own opinions.

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

I kind of stopped reading after you wrote about it being wrestling with strikes. So mma is just wrestling with strikes?

[@stevenoconnor3256]

Most old styles have a mix of everything. Jujitsu had strikes and weapons and it's wrestling, sumo wrestling is what it's based on. Wrestling in weapon systems is common and strikes were more common. Wrestling for the streets is not the same thing as sport.

[@TimRHillard]

I usually order my Chi Tea minus the wrestling. Just sayin...

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

One chi tea. Hold the wrestling 😂

[@Rasepreme]

taichi is a mixed martial arts style. wrestling, grappling, boxing

[@ShredST]

If striking was once trained in Tai Chi but doesn't anymore, then for all practical purposes it doesn't have striking and is no longer a complete martial art. So perhaps what you should say is that "Tai Chi Chuan shouldn't be a wrestling system"

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

Who said striking in tai chi isn’t practiced anymore?

[@ShredST]

@@indefenceofthetraditionalma Who's practicing striking in Tai Chi? Maybe a people few here and there? Certainly not enough of them to say that "Tai Chi has striking"

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

@ShredST step back to strike the tiger. Parry and punch. Step up slap face….thats without showing other applications with striking involved. I’m sorry that you haven’t experienced a real tai chi chuan instructor. That said, Ramsey Dewey never once said that tai chi has become a wrestling art. He said it was always a wrestling art.

[@B..B.]

Taiji was supposed to englobe wrestling, striking and weapon. It's a martial art, it need all of those

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

Absolutely

[@taoliu3949]

Any "complete" martial arts has both wrestling and striking elements, the difference lies in the emphasis. Taichi emphasizes wrestling/grappling and you can clearly see this with Tuishou/Push hands. Students are taught the wrestling and grappling aspects before they are taught the strikes. Not to mention, the entire philosphy of the art is to protect your center of gravity while trying to disrupt your opponents. The strikes are built on top of a wrestling/grappling base, not the other way around. And yes, Tuishou matches do exist, there are a lot of competitions especially in China. If anything, "striking" Taichi matches are extremely rare.

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

The emphasis on pushing hands is a relatively new thing.

[@taoliu3949]

@indefenceofthetraditionalma Push hands has always been a thing, most schools just don't teach beyond forms because most CMA schools don't spar to begin with. However, push hands has always been a sparring tool for intermediate students before they progress into Freestyle/Sanshou. You spar push hands before you spar freestyle. It's a natural progression and ties perfectly with the philosophy and tenants of Taichi.

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

@ pushing hands was always there. The emphasis placed on it wasn’t.

[@taoliu3949]

@@indefenceofthetraditionalma I'm not sure what you mean by "emphasis" when it's clearly an intermediate sparring tool before students sparred free hand. There are competitions going back literally decades.

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

@ it’s not a sparring tool at all. It’s just an exercise to develop listening skills. The emphasis on it came with the introduction and popularity of competitions.

[@cookinchef40]

Wrestling and Kickboxing, that's what I've been told for years. In my opinion, I think it's safe to say that people like Ramsey are mistaking Pushing Hands for wrestling. Pushing Hands is what most people see as the application of Tai Chi Chuan. No surprise that the assumption is made, as the ruleset is wrestling. As you say, there are fewer and fewer people on a declining scale with both knowledge and practice of PH drills and freestyle PH. That is mostly the limit that people go to. Very few TCC practitioners go on to fight. This is why there is no longer a Sanshou event at the British Open. Those that have fought with Tai Chi Chuan as their only MA, (Sanshou personally) get to use the full gamut of techniques. Though it seems that only those with eyes that see recognise Tai chi Chuan. To everyone else it's just Kickboxing.

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

That breaks my heart to hear they stopped the sanshou events. Was always the best part of the day for me. Always held at the end.

[@floatingbonestaichi]

Is a heel kick also 'wrestling' ? How about the double punch ?

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

It’s interesting that a lot of tai chi guys say that there are more grappling techniques than striking and that’s why it’s a wrestling system. I then have to point out that there are more grappling techniques in MMA than striking but that we wouldn’t call mma a wrestling system

[@spinningdragontao]

Love it - the clues in the title :)

[@lindltailor]

The categories of wrestling and striking are relatively modern developments for sport. Don't focus on Taiji what it is or isn't, look into the history of military conflict, personal defense in a civilized context, the oldest martial arts, sport fighting we have, you quickly realize all of the oldest traditions evolved artificially into these two modern categories whether for practicing drills, safety reasons or for sport. In terms of unarmed self-defense, the best offense is destabilizing your opponent, breaking their root, etc, in order to advantage your striking or disabling. This philosophy goes back to Sun Zu. It generally implies a higher percentage of grappling / destroying their base, than just trading blows in a gentlemanly agreement of fisticuffs. That's probably why you hear Taiji is fundamentally about training root for grappling, because in terms of non-sport, unarmed conflict, clinching and grappling is what makes the most sense. Keeping distance and bludgeoning each other only with speed, power and accuracy really does not.

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

What if they’re a better wrestler than you?

[@lindltailor]

@@indefenceofthetraditionalma Wrestling is a sport, it has rules, and people specialize their whole lives to those rules. What is the question exactly?

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

@@lindltailor the question was, what if they’re a better wrestler than you?

[@lindltailor]

@@indefenceofthetraditionalma and my question implies "and"... then what? As in: 1) You somehow found yourself in a AAA division 1 College wrestling match? 2) You somehow found yourself fighting in the UFC? 3) You are walking across the street and someone attacks you? 4) You are in a push hands competition? Let me know which scenario you would like more information on.

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

@lindltailor 2 or 3

[@WadeSmith-oe5xd]

I did a 50 hours seminar from a double 6th Dan in Tai Chin and Isshinryu Karate. Most of the session revolved around joint locks and throwing techniques.

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

What’s a double 6th Dan?

[@WadeSmith-oe5xd]

@@indefenceofthetraditionalma pretty obvious from what I said, that instructor was 6th Dan in both Tai chi and Isshinryu Karate.

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

@@WadeSmith-oe5xd there are no Dan grades (in fact no grades) in tai chi

[@WadeSmith-oe5xd]

@@indefenceofthetraditionalma You're mistaken, because I trained under them before. if you have no grade, how would you know who's the teacher and who's the student? I know for a fact I trained under a 6th degree black belt in Tai chi

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

@WadeSmith-oe5xd grades are about 100 years old. I’ve never come across a grading system for tai chi. You’ll know who the teacher is because they’ll usually be at the front of the class

[@CharlesGorrie]

Strikes to enter throw once in.

[@CharlesGorrie]

Hit to put down put down to hit

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

Love that

[@AlanSkirving]

From what I recently saw from a Wu teacher (you know the one Charles), movements can simultaneously be a strike, a lock and throw in the one application at the same time...having felt it, I now know what that means...

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

@@AlanSkirving can that wu teacher make you jump by touching you? Thank you for the contacts. I’ve sent a message to the first one you sent. Let’s see what happens 🤞👍

[@AlanSkirving]

@@indefenceofthetraditionalma the Wu teacher (also bagua, yiquan, xingyi teacher ) can sort of make me jump by touching, but he's got a lot of deceptive tricks going on simultaneously to create that response...unbalancing, trapping, extending, locking, creating reaction and counter-reaction, creating 'sensory' overload and confusion - at which point long or short jin can be applied to bounce (nice) or break (nasty)

[@dalazycheapskate]

I likes Ransay Deweys breakdown on Adam Mizners trickery to market students in. You are right Tai Chi definitely, is more than just that, its not just ancient wrestling but at the same time, it is nice that he, a MMA coach, recognizes there are many good wrestling applications in Tai chi

[@bentaylor5665]

TAI CHI CHUAN MEANS GRAND ULTIMATE FIST.

[@PracticeTaiji]

I agree. Taijiquan has applications that include locks, throws, and sweeps (as pointed out here), but is NOT predominantly a wrestling / grappling art - like Shuai jiao, Judo, or Jiujitsu. Dewey doesn't know what he's on about. Thank you for flagging it.

[@philsuz9649]

tai chi is all types of martial arts its how you want to use it in self defence

[@TrainKungFu]

Tai chi will enhance your wrestling skills and has a strong foundation in understanding your opponents root and intentions. Of course you need a proper teacher to learn these things.

[@watermelonprom7197]

I do not like this video because it is hung up on a term of phrasing which is "wrestling system" i think it is stupid to disagree with someone but to then say literally everything that they just said please look at all of ramsey deweys videos where he explained how to use taiji in a striking context but after watching your video it annoys me even more cause you gave a perfect example on how taiji is a grappling system you make the arguement that taiji is for people who know how to fight so it contains both striking & grappling but you also bring Conor & Kahbib into the conversation who both know how to fight but one primarily strikes & one primarily grapples there by showing that even though taiji is meant for the real deal it can still be a system that is biased between stiking & grappling which is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of also as a taiji Practioner you should also know that taiji has 2 extracurricular forms the 108 Chang Quan & Pao Quan which both are primarily striking but the 5 main forms on the other hand are primarily grappling but obviously it's not grappling for a judo match it's grappling for a MMA match but i think the reason why you don't like the idea of calling taiji a grappling system is because you are attached to the idea of deattachment just skimming through your videos i can see you want to be a Daoist & i can see that you are trying to asorb their wisdom into your life but you cant allow yourself to flow unattached if your so attached to the idea of flowing just a fellow lover of Chinese culture to another

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

Does wrestling have strikes?

[@RobertAgarHutton]

Hi, I am (on the whole) a huge fan of Ramsey's videos but I agree with you about the wrestling issue... Of course the truth is lost to us, as the exact type of art that Tai Chi was at inception was not recorded. I tend to divide Martial Arts into two categories: 1) Wrestling arts - village wrestling arts - young lads go to the next village, fight to see who are the alpha males and they get the pretty girls. Generally, combatants get to go home with not much more than bruises. 2) Fighting arts - the next village (tribe, country, whatever) comes along and wants to kill, enslave, whatever, and you have to fight (perhaps to the death) and from there - or developed separately - fighting arts that allow you to protect yourself (and your family, etc.) from serious attack, bandits, robbers highwaymen, etc... and again you need to be able to use force up to and including lethal force. I do think that Tai Chi was a type '2' art, it was very effective and unlike a lot of other martial arts, survived, thrived and expanded. In doing so, it became a dance to some, a health art to others, a wrestling art to others, a competition art... etc etc etc.

[@jimmybovver8768]

I'm sorry but Ramsey Dewey doesn't even know what Tai Chi Chuan means

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

Herein lies the problem. Celebrities opinions are given more credence than experts. Disclaimer: I’m not calling myself an expert but I have a hell of a lot more knowledge on the subject than Ramsey Dewey

[@Nowheremt]

In my limited experience, tai chi and bagua are easiest to apply as throws, but they have striking techniques as well. Traditional MMA.

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

Absolutely 👍

[@kacklerot]

All my years of watching Kung Fu movies I never seen Tai Chi displayed as a wrestling style. I would think Chinese making movies about their history would know better than we do. Maybe he's mistaking the joint manipulation in it as wrestling? As far as I seen demonstrated it looks like the joints are manipulated to strike the person in a vulnerable state or to force an opening. I've seen strikes using the hips or stance to knock your opponent down but this isn't really wrestling either. If I shoulder ram someone to knock them down I'm not grappling. I'm using a strike that is using my whole weight to attack their stature and exploit their lack of balance or fortitude. It's a brute tactic that's some look at as dirty fighting. Tai Chi might have this to compete with the massive amount of styles that were around back then. That's my guess.

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

I think wrestling is a part of tai chi, after all, what else would you describe pushing hands as? It’s just that I feel people like Ramsey have taken part in a lazy rebranding in an attempt to make tai chi more relevant. At least I hope it’s for that reason and not just to gain views

[@kacklerot]

@@indefenceofthetraditionalma idk what pushing hands is. I never trained in Tai Chi. I just watched a lot of Kung Fu movies. The closest thing to soft style I've ever trained was Tang So Do which took some Chinese concepts from Hwang Kee the founder of Moo Duk Kwan leaving South Korea when the Chinese took over. I think he was not allow to practice Korean Martial Arts so after he came back to Korean he incorporated some of what he learned from China into his Martial Art.

[@mycheung6757]

I think Ramsey doesn't have knowledge on this part. In short, all TMAs include striking, wrestling, locks, etc. I did tai chi when I was young, most of the techniques are striking or combination of striking and wrestling clinching, and of course there are some wrestling.

[@damianneve]

Lmfao I did two videos on this guy as well 💀 🤣 😂

[@Chaiyapol111]

Sorry….it is wrestling and joint lock in Chinese style….

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

Sorry….you spelt ‘Tai ch has wrestling and joint locks in it as part of an overall fighting system’ wrong….

[@MaxTheGamingMan]

Post yourself sparring

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

Why?

[@martialgeeks]

He's already got 3 of his mma fights on youtube 😂

[@iamPROTOTYPE]

taiji has strikes, grappling, joint locks, sweeps/trips, throws. Mizner's teacher vs. a shuai jiao wrestler kzbin.info/www/bejne/laacg6mYndZ5oas

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

That’s the worst fight I’ve ever seen but it still looks real next to Mizner’s fake chi. How come his teacher couldn’t make his opponent hop around like an idiot?

[@iamPROTOTYPE]

@@indefenceofthetraditionalma well because training in perfect semi cooperative drills looks different than actual combat? nobody is arguing that point

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

@@iamPROTOTYPE so you’re agreeing that people allow that to happen?

[@iamPROTOTYPE]

@@indefenceofthetraditionalma do you know how in training, people hold up pads and allow them to be hit? its just using another human body as weight to train certain strengths. it starts with dead weight, and as the practitioner gets better, more resistance added.

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

@@iamPROTOTYPE so why hop or faceplant? No one holding pads recreates being knocked out…

[@Frari747]

Why do you care about it ?

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

Why do you care about it?

[@Frari747]

@@indefenceofthetraditionalma you can‘t be convinced.

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

@@Frari747 that’s not an answer. I could easily be convinced if someone came up with a convincing argument that tai chi was indeed a grappling system. I’m surprised you’re arguing against me on this. Pretty sure that mizner doesn’t consider tai chi to be a wrestling system as I’ve seen him demonstrating blows

[@jasonsecretsword7606]

The "moves" only work once the foundation power is obtained. This can only be done with proper instruction and hardwork. 99.999% do not get to where this power becomes greater than their basic strength so when pressured martially they fall out of their Taiji mind because their Taiji body wasn't constructed fully before driving it. It takes time to learn how to fight with it even though it will improve how many other arts function while completely missing the mark for it's intended core modality leading to further misconceptions or half truths being perpetuated. Repeat several generation and so few can express strong Jin that it seems like magic trick esp with so many actual fakes. Those who can express strong hidden jin in free spar or free roll with skilled strangers based on the supply of videos is maybe 1 in a million? 1in 10million? Tai Chi people who learn to free fight using actual Taiji Jin are like unicorns. People won't believe they exist until they meet them.

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

I get what you are saying, however, the people and the videos I criticise show people not reacting to the force applied to them

[@jasonsecretsword7606]

@@indefenceofthetraditionalma I think some of the stuff I can show would also look fake or like there were actors though most you showcase are indeed delusional at best. I have a friend I am teaching invite me to a martial arts meetup near the university downtown with several in different 20 somethings of various martial backgrounds. I can go there only knowing one person and film free interactions with them. My friend has told them a little about internal and they are overall skeptical and like to go hard which makes them the perfect base group to show how "acting" tricks like Na aka seizing and Fa into direct force only appear fake. I live in Portland OR which have an unusually high ratio of quality MMA gyms per capita so I am hoping to film some exchanges during open mat rolling as well. I think a nobody like me is perfect to showcase Taiji as I have no commercial interest nor the money to pay actors. I know the skilled folks rolling at Impact, Alive, Team Quest, 10th Planet, and Renzo Gracie gyms would not act just to make Taichi look good =-D

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

@@jasonsecretsword7606 I doubt anything you could show me would look fake unless it was fake 😁 Do you have footage of you touching 10th planet guys and making them jump upwards in a different direction to the force applied, for instance?

[@jasonsecretsword7606]

@@indefenceofthetraditionalma no that is beyond my abilities =-D

[@jasonsecretsword7606]

@@indefenceofthetraditionalma I am not trying to prove it's magic that can beat any art just that it's a viable martial art in public view even though some effects it can produce appear fake to the average viewer to include most trained martial artists. I have no doubt I will taken down and even tapped by some when I go to their open mat. Skill in my art does not delete theirs and I am generally careful with my training partners but some like to go very hard during standing start and that's where Taiji can show great visual result.

[@surfwriter8461]

This is ignorant and insulting commentary typical of those who are dismissive as well as completely ignorant of Tai Chi Chuan in its fighting applications. It's not a "wrestling" system--no one I know uses that term for it--but it incorporates numerous throws, take-downs and grappling applications though the techniques embedded in the form don't show ground fighting per se. You minimize the number of people who train in fighting applications or even Push Hands practice, when in fact there are many who do that, though most Tai Chi people are more interested in the "moving meditation" approach to Tai Chi. To isolate a movement like Parry and Punch as if that's indicative of a strict punch, block and kick system is just blatantly ignorant. What's insulting is when someone makes commentaries like this with so little foundation in understanding the tradition, the nature of the system, the relationship between body mechanics and internal power, etc. You've made yourself into a troll attacking practitioners like Adam Mizner in a way that demonstrates disrespect as well as total lack of understanding. If you actually engaged with someone who is trained in free sparring or fighting applications, and had both technical skill and internal power, you'd end up being shamed into admitting how clueless and insulting you've been. But of course, you're more interested in joining the cheap shot troll club and pretending to be superior. It's pretty lame.

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

Could you respond to the video. I think you’ve wound yourself up and haven’t listened to the content. Because no one you know uses that term that means that no one does? Check out some of the comments on this video 😂🤦‍♀️ I love how you’ve taken a video that has nothing to do with Mizner and have managed to make it about him. I’m sorry your heroes are cowards and you’ve invested so much of your time and money into something that doesn’t actually work. You’re a joke and so is your tai chi

[@surfwriter8461]

​@@indefenceofthetraditionalmaYour "content" is redundant and never changes in its ignorant, inflammatory rhetoric. As to what I am writing on a video you claim is not about MIzner, what is the title of your video? Get a grip. You can't even pronounce his name correctly--or pretend to not know or care, your way of insulting him further. As jokes go, that one is truly lame. I don't have "heroes"--never used the term--and didn't pay a cent to take a workshop with Mizner or his group, but I have worked with people who are at a similar level as well as kung fu and other skilled teachers who pushed with him and came away more than impressed. So when I pose that against your incessant, compulsive BS, I don't even have to debate which view I should take seriously. Your insults are so childish and desperate that it's pathetic. But I know you want badly to reinforce your warped biases, so you will continue this endless trolling.

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

@@surfwriter8461 my content is true. Your heroes are cowards that are too scared to recreate this nonsense outside of their bubble. Write all the essays you want but that fact still remains and you can’t argue against it.

[@surfwriter8461]

@@indefenceofthetraditionalma Ah, I bow to you as the sole arbiter of what is "true" speaking from his own bubble that he can't even see around him. What a self-aggrandizing turd.

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

@@surfwriter8461 kzbin.infoh9HRVOlv_EM?feature=share