When Tai Chi Guys Challenge Wrestlers (Shuai Jiao and Western Wrestling)

[@FightCommentary]

I just talked to Sifu Niko. We'll likely do a little live hangout on Fight Commentary Chats next week! Hopefully we can get Sifu Niko to try some of these inter-style matches in the future!

[@jestfullgremblim8002]

Ohhh that would be amazing, i'm very fond of him

[@peterleaitherland6406]

T5 sa​@j😊cii ulestfullgremblim8002

[@charlesreed5839]

Every time I see Shuai Jiao I am impressed. Big videos with big challenges, smaller scale videos, always Shuai Jiao is the real deal.

[@ralphmarshall1000]

Kung fu teachers have always said, “if you want to test your Kung fu , find a wrestler “.

[@theophilussparks5839]

That's not true ,since Shuai Gao is a separate system. But you'll find elements of Shuai Gao in just about all Kung fu systems. This guy does know Kung Fu

[@mengmao5033]

In western wrestling, that balance skill is called having a good base. And in sanshou, probably from taiji, we called it having good root.

[@donworland]

this is cool, it is good to see if the Tai Chi and Ba Gua people are keeping their wrestling tradition alive. I enjoy the chuckling, but this is really about students dedicating time and money to something they believe in and love and it's to everyone's benefit to have a chance to test their development. The rules have long pissed off a lot of Tai Chi men, in the 90s I heard this, they would say to us young guys, "you should have seen some of the old school matches".....I don't know what that means really to this day but for historic footage you show.

[@EliteBlackSash]

In reality, Tai Chi competition is essentially a sub-section of Shuaijiao that hyper focuses on the pummeling and grip fighting. If you learn Baoding / Combat Shuai Jiao you can pretty much pick up Any of the Kungfu styles. Northern Mantis hyper focuses on the clinching and foot sweeps. BaGua has a fine balance, including leg grabs. One of the best BJJ teachers in OC was under Xing Yi tai chi bagua stylist under Luo De Xiu. Tim Cartmell taught alongside Buchecha at Ace Jiu Jitsu

[@junichiroyamashita]

Pummelling and grip fighting only? How is this type of wrestling called,what are the rules?

[@kungfugirevik657]

Tai Chi guy here. In most comparisons we see between traditional and modern schools, the traditional martial artist has clearly not pressure tested their craft. You can tell the first couple of Tai Chi guys haven't had much, if any, sparring experience. They perhaps tested techniques against willing opponents, but not against unwilling opponents. They could have also just been new students, there's not enough to go on here. If they're new (and even if not), this is a valuable experience. In any event, I enjoy seeing properly trained students testing themselves against other schools of thought. I say this to point out the importance of pressure testing, including sparring, no matter what your chosen fighting technique.

[@contaparajogar1666]

Perfect I have nothing to say

[@MichaelWestonAnimates]

This was predictable as it was my experience when first dealing with Shuaijiao; in moving-step push hands, you're usually allowed to take an opponent over your planted foot or leg to throw them but sweeps and shoulder throws are generally not permitted. So those of us coming from primarily push hands practice have to develop awareness and defense for this kind of attack. It's great to see them working on it!

[@StimmedPenguin]

Good tai chi and wing chun schools are great sensitivity training martial arts. By themselves under the traditional training methodologies, they’re very hard to apply, but they can add a layer for hand/grip and clinch fighting that can upgrade an average fighter to a great fighter. The idea is that you train yourself to use touch as another set of eyes because you know which leg your opponent’s weight is mostly on or being to apply kazushi (break structure) or Aikido’s Mizu Nagare (working with your opponent’s energy) like a Nak Muay to blend in grappling with knees, elbows, and dirty boxing. Imagine being able to blend infighting boxing like Roberto Duran, knee in the clinch like Dieselnoi, and use your grappling sensitivity like Justin Gathje to land powerful leg kicks and punches without being taken down by most elite grapplers.

[@jestfullgremblim8002]

Exactly, you have the same opinion about this as me

[@CelsiusZero]

Maybe.. but there's wrestling school that may have that sensitivity in their curriculum already. I'd rather just train wrestling than waste my time trying to find a wing chun or tai chi school. (Good schools are way too rare)

[@StimmedPenguin]

@@CelsiusZeroAt the end of the day, it’s a drill that focuses on a martial aspect, live partners, and live practice that will develop usable skills. All you need are the ideas and techniques and then you are training the martial art no matter whether you’re in a different type of school or training group. Most bodies can only move certain ways. I think modified Sumo rules is a great framework/methodology to get some “push hands” training in. If you want some Wing Chun-ish training. Agree to only infight and stay in contact, focus on breaking structure and feeling for punches, and use your boxing only to bridge the gap to it. Also, remember, it’s a wear and tear age thing too. I put my work in as a young 20 something getting my appendages hurt, my ribs cracked, and my eyes blackened to learn and practice the full contact martial arts. As you get older, you’ll only want to hard spar to make sure you’re timing, power, precision, and cardio are still in order so having different avenues or focusing on being more and more efficient to train martial skills without hurting yourself becomes a priority. I love the martial arts so I want to keep practicing without risking getting more chronic injuries as easily.

[@hypnoticskull6342]

Second dude reminded me of Ramsey Dewey's story about how he got destroyed by an 80 year old Tai Chi guy. Fully understands how to fight

[@CharlesBetancourt-iq9oe]

​@themanwithtomanyeyes8282The third and last shows tai chi dominating grapplers. The last one the tai chi guy took his Greco opponent down 5ore times of you watch the whole video. It's " Tai chi vs. wrestling ( maybe Greco Roman) other match Shadow Xu".

[@mrmoth26]

Tai Chi is grappling​@themanwithtomanyeyes8282

[@zachariaravenheart]

I found a Tai Chi school near me. Apparently they teach the applications and weapons stuff too. I'm thinking of checking it out tomorrow

[@jestfullgremblim8002]

Heyyy that sounds amazing! Do update us!

[@tranquil_dude]

Roughly speaking, the relationship between TuiShou ("push-hands") & ShuaiJiao, is like that between boxing & kickboxing. The victory conditions are similar, just that ShuaiJiao usually allows more kinds of moves than TuiShou. As for TaiJi, at its core, it's not tied to any specific move set or rule set.* Rather, it's an approach to using force that can be applied to different move sets or rule sets, *including* ShuaiJiao. A TaiJi practitioner who only spars under TuiShou ruleset is like a WingChun practitioner who only spars under a "ChiSao ruleset". It's not wrong, but it's not a full representation of what the art is actually about. Particularly if you look at the traditional TaiJi "forms sequences". Many of the moves *are* like ShuaiJiao moves, with trips, kicks and grabs (sometimes interpreted as punches), indicating that TaiJi was originally applied in a ShuaiJiao-like context, although clearly not identical to ShuaiJiao as we know it today either (e.g. there's striking/ thrusting attacks too). Now that I think about it, it's funny how many TaiJi practitioners nowadays go through those clearly non-TuiShou-like moves in their solo forms practice ... and then forget about them during TuiShou. 🤷 In addition, the original word for TaiJi combat was DaShou ("hitting hands"). TuiShou as a term came later, probably with the trend of TaiJi sparring practice becoming more simplified and less violent. (interestingly, boxing has gone through a similar trend, with less & less kinds of moves allowed)

[@kevinlobos5519]

The last two were clearly under push hands rules but at least they are actually good at what they do. The news about sifu Nico are interesing, would love to see that video!

[@FightCommentary]

I just talked to him. Sifu Niko will be on Fight Commentary Chats next week ;) Stay tuned for that!

[@kevinlobos5519]

@@FightCommentary will definitely do!

[@junjun_8070]

traditionally speaking, taiji also has a lot of foot sweeps. I'm not an expert by any means, but from my sifu we learned movements like "white crane spreads wings" and "cloud hands" as a form of foot sweep. I think in the modern day there's definitely an element of "doesn't look like taiji", but the techniques are all there. If someone else knows more, please chime in - I'm only a beginner in applied taiji.

[@jestfullgremblim8002]

Oh sure thing. Taijiquan has a few over the back throws like Judo, standing joint locks, the usual hand techniques and all sorts of footsweeps. Tbh, Taichi took a lot from the White Crane Style, which in turn is mostly Shuai Jiao with the added striking (which really wasn't "added" in the time because Shuai Jiao had striking as well)

[@oldtyger]

Wu style taijiquan has throws, joint locks and leg sweeps but it’s not always taught. In tui shou competition I don’t think those are allowed usually. You only ever see what looks like pushing and pulling with the arms.

[@jestfullgremblim8002]

@@oldtyger yup

[@contaparajogar1666]

I trained with Chen Ziqiang and you are right, especially Tai Chi Chen has many techniques of sweeps, pushes, projections, falls and so on.

[@erickl3780]

As a high school wrestler I believe that the Western wrestler in the last clip is gerco Roman wrestler due to there be no legs attacks and his body more up. And the first clip I believe is a shanxi style wrestler

[@algorworld7447]

0:38 took him down so hard that he dropped loot.

[@godzilladude1231]

Awesome match-up. Love to see traditional Chinese wrestling

[@xintixieyi]

我认识前两个视频的摔跤手，第一个是西安体院的摔跤教练 第二个是厦门的武馆老板 另外剩下视频中太极选手都是天龙太极的学员，也是为数不多可以实战的太极流派，如果你关注太极你应该深入了解天龙太极，他是由新中国第一个武术博士田金龙教授创立的，是我非常欣赏的太极流派❤

[@FightCommentary]

太好了！我在抖音上搜搜！谢谢你给我这些信息！

[@andrealuigilaplaca1291]

Awesome channel bro 🤙

[@mengmao5033]

3:43 is a lateral drop Limiting the rules is good for developing the parts of your game that are still allowed. It’s valuable to try both rulesets that are more restrictive or less restrictive.

[@tonbonthemon]

When people ask "is it allowed in Tai Chi" I don't quite understand the question. Is it about violating principles or actual rules? Principle wise, Tai Chi focuses on a kind of refined strength that is cultivated via mind-body integration, but that doesn't necessarily preclude tripping or throwing. Rule-wise, in competitive settings it depends on the way the event is being organized, or in the context of tuishou it depends on the way it is trained in the lineage. You wouldn't submit someone in BJJ when you're just drilling side control. Mostly tuishou is a training device, and it can have different levels - from simple circling hands patterns to complex stepping choreographies. Once things get competitive and "free", that's when certain limitations or boundaries should be clear, i.e. whether or not throws are allowed.

[@genghismike6186]

Shuai Jiao also has elements of Tai Chi concept

[@immortalwarrior2406]

I think the Taiji guy in white is Chen style which is the original Taiji that has wrestling.

[@contaparajogar1666]

Yes

[@kokovas]

Chen Wang Ting who developed the foundation of Chen style Tai Chi, was a military officer in late Ming dynasty. Very likely his Tai Chi system had shuai jiao and qin na elements because most officers probably had to practise and master them that period. Well, 400 years ago probably the Tai chi system was more in raw state compared to current "slow and soft" style. But anyway, it will be great if ppl can practise both Shuai jiao and Chen Tai chi. plus Qin na of course. especially with Chen style Pao Quan, with lots of explosive movements.

[@haku1982-forever]

Different rules will get different results. There is an wrestling-type MMA fighter named TianXi(田袭) in China. He played a pusher(TuiShou) rule match with a national Taiji Tuishou champion. You can look at it.

[@theophilussparks5839]

since Shuai Gao is a separate system. But you'll find elements of Shuai Gao in just about all Kung fu systems. This guy does know Kung Fu

[@seraphinaaizen6278]

It's like finding a unicorn. Guys using taichi actually wining fights.

[@contaparajogar1666]

yes they win and we have proof of this in other fights

[@CharlesBetancourt-iq9oe]

There are dozens of you tube videos of tai chi winning these inter grappling bouts. If you see only what you want to believe, then you' ll never find them. Read the list I have in the second to first part of this comment section.

[@CharlesBetancourt-iq9oe]

Everybody should look at the FULL match on the last one shown here before coming to conclusions. The video was " Taii chi vs.wrestling ( maybe greco roman) other match -Shadow Xu"

[@PazCristo]

In today's language: 角力 Western Wrestling 摔跤 Chinese Wrestling Fun fact: 角力 is mentioned in Ancient Han (漢朝) literature. So literally, 角力=摔跤 in the Chinese language. But for easier understanding, follow Jerry's catagory.

[@donutsndeadlifts]

Hold up....... is tai chi like the kata of shuai jiao??

[@pablotapiafineart]

This will make tai chi much better…

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

One group of guys practice against fully resisting opponents and another group cosplay….let’s see who wins…😂 All throws are allowed in tai chi chaun. Some competitions don’t allow leg grabs

[@cplim4842]

Everyone has to start somewhere. I have yet to meet anyone who is awesome in any skills without practicing correctly for a significant amount of time. Good luck guys.

[@TheGrmany69]

Shuai Jiao is applied Taichiquan, the neigong part is what most people call taichi. So... taichiquan works.

[@mengmao5033]

Shuaijiao is an evolution of Mongolian wrestling. There’s certainly some overlap/contact with other arts, but its techniques did not come directly from taiji

[@durv13]

a real tai chi guy wouldnt let his opponents hold him , he'd evade them , like the 2nd tai chi guy did .

[@obiwanquixote8423]

I always enjoy how the flavor of Shuai Jiao movement is distinctly different than Judo. Also, that last wrestler might have been a Greco guy. Not all wrestlers shoot for the legs

[@CharlesBetancourt-iq9oe]

To see Nico in grappling action. See the video " Sifu Reversed the throw attempt Grappling is the next step in your push hands " # jujitsu # push hands. The last video presented here was " Tai Chi vs. Wrestling ( maybe Greco Roman) other match Shadow Xu. There were six amazing takedowns in that one. A better one " Tai chi vs. wrestling ( maybe Greco Roman) Angle 1- Shadow Xu" . Others 1) Tai chi vs. Bjj ( special guest) Standup to takedown match - Coach Jan Lucanus". 2) Tai chi push hands ( Tian Long tai chi) vs. wrestling 2. The wrestler taking his shirt off is Tian Xi, a 2016 national Greco Champion and MMA fighter with 6 wins and one loss. Yes trips and footsweeps were attempted on both sides. 3) video " William Miller". Shows him winning at a open grappling tournament. 4) " Chen Ziqiang spars William Miller. 5( Tai ji " Heaven man earth vs. wrestling"- Ramzi Nabulus. 6) " Tai chi champion vs. Muaythai Champion Chen Chi Chen vs. Ian Morgan Push hands New York 2009. 7) Chen Xu practical method push hands vs. Challenger in Daqingshan 2013" Chen 135 lbs. Challenger about 195 - 200. 8) Tai chi vs. Freestyle wrestling 2 - Shadow Xu.and 1. And much more.

[@robertallenpittman3195]

the bulk of modern Tai chi practitioners do not do the full set of Tai chi curriculum training...the old Tai chi form does contain wrestling counters...but as usual - one would have to actually train the counters...one cannot get the necessary skills from push-hands games...the techniques are catalogued within the form. We simply don't have people practicing them.

[@MaartenSFS]

My biggest regret in MA is focusing on striking rather than wrestling.

[@francismeowgannou5322]

Same here

[@soylentgreen6082]

You can choke people out or place them in locks in MMA. Of course you can also knock them out...

[@MaartenSFS]

@@soylentgreen6082 I think that I’d have sustained less injuries if I’d have gone with wrestling.

[@zulkipliismail8129]

That's why they have weight categories in combat sports. Weight does matter along with techniques for people of about the same skill standards

[@คุณน้าร้านน้ําชา]

Nice lateral drop

[@bertt1055]

On the banner for last 2 matches it says Tui Shou. Definitely push hands rules

[@CharlesBetancourt-iq9oe]

Could be extreme push hands rules. Which allows double and single leg takedowns and trips and footsweeps. The wrestlers were Greco Roman style.

[@Spiritof_76]

Look at the differential size and build of the guys in these clips. It matters.

[@paulpolpiboon9535]

You said you haven't seen these yet and are viewing it for the first time but I was wondering how do you know which one is Tain Chi and which is the wrestler?

[@FightCommentary]

It says

[@botanicalbiohacking6065]

Sifu Nico got jacked at his fitness center.

[@CharlesBetancourt-iq9oe]

Jacked meaning muscle workout?

[@Tequn9q]

I would almost opt for stopping to say "thai chi guy", "xyz guy" etc. The most important to get forth is the experience and the quality of the fighter. As for the Tai Chi guys early in the video, you clearly see that there are years/thousands of hours difference between the two contestants. If you pair up any MMA/BJJ guy against a whatever stylist that has thousands of hours, the beginner will struggle. The only exception to this rule is if someone has only practiced their own style and then think they can take on another stylist..

[@Adam_True]

When tai chi guys think after years of so called training, that they are on an unstoppable John Wick level😂😂😂😂

[@maktiki]

The tai chi guy was never tripped before in his life because his hand are behind his back chin not tucked, he fough in his life hahaha lol.

[@canaldesugestoesa6651]

third tai chi practitioner, he is bigger and heavier and this counts in a fight, even though he has difficulties and knocks down the shuai jhao practitioner

[@Jaburu]

greco-roman would probably be the elite of Tai Chi rules wrestling. probably hard to find greco-romans in China

[@morpheus3128]

I lived in China for 12 years. All Chinese martial artists know not to try to grapple with Shuai Jiao fighters.

[@wrestlerkun]

1:58 I think that grabbing clothes for the throw is not allowed in Tai Chi.

[@contaparajogar1666]

exactly true, very long holds like shuai jiao

[@seegurke-bd3yr]

Real title should be: when a system of believe Challenges a system of combat

[@CharlesBetancourt-iq9oe]

What do you think of moment 2:00?

[@Bison-id5mo]

Wrestlers are built different.

[@Dan.50]

People want there to be an easy way to learn how to protect themselves. It's like wanting to learn to swim without getting wet.

[@seanbooker1010]

Real internal artists practice all of discipline to improve root or footing.

[@FrtnCooky]

Isn't tai-chi supposed to be about using the energy of an opponent against them in order to execute the move? The first clip proven to be what tai-chi should be, but the rest of the clips, its force(energy)against force(energy).

[@xMister.Misterx]

Is it tai chi or shuai jiao?? They’re different. You’re confusing me 🤔

[@Raul28153]

If they didn't start out grappling the Striker might do better.

[@mpalenque]

good tai chi guys are allways mad at and big. when they are tiny they fly all the time

[@chriszimmer3804]

Taichi only works well under strict Taichi rules and limitations. Then the "Taichi Master" wins ...

[@FightCommentary]

Definitely seems like it from these clips. I'll find more if this video does well, so hopefully the algorithm likes this video and I'll do a sequel. There are hundreds of these clips to analyze on Chinese social media ;)

[@clanterminaition3257]

The Karate team and the kickboxers when they read this comment 🗿

[@jestfullgremblim8002]

​@@clanterminaition3257yeah, *almost* everything only works in it's own ruleset if you start taking examples of it on unusual rulesets and with practitioners that haven't adapted it (might that be for any given reason) I believe that Tachi's concepts would benefy any grappler that does follow them, and Taichi has a whole lot of moves that are found in other grappling styles, this means that at least in theory, the art should work. The schools are just not that good and take tradition to seriously (just like Karate) Furthermore, to get good at something, you need to practice it; that's why you 100% need sparring if you want to be a good fighter, unless you are some kind of genious, and even if you are, it still will benefy you, hence why they are good at their ruleset, it's the thing they practice, they never go on to try and fight a kickboxer or a wrestler, how could you expect them to be good at it? It's not really their art's fault, it's theirs and their master's

[@clanterminaition3257]

@@jestfullgremblim8002 well not exactly a fighter is a fighter at the end of the day

[@Purwapada]

@@FightCommentary Hey Jerry, I dont know if you've seen this clip, but its of a taiji student who competed in muay thai. same school of taiji that I do. it would be cool to see your reaction. kzbin.info/www/bejne/haeukHaOeKqirbs

[@Createlongevity]

Guys, it all depends on the skills and sparring experience of the person and not on the style. And all Thai chi practitioners you feature are mediocre. You compare apple with pears.

[@seanbooker1010]

Stationary pushhands won't develop the body for combat. My bagua teacher stressed that point to me.

[@ziggydog5091]

Take your video and go to Chen village, show them this video, and watch what happens. Good luck to you.

[@jacobhughes9010]

So tai chi is equally effective but you have to take out the entire point of your opponents game? Lol

[@vitorsantos2873]

For me it's ironic cause the wrestlers are just better in tai chi.

[@combatprinciplesmma]

Taiji generally does poorly against pressure

[@edouardlorge4059]

Is it misleading to say shuai jiao is Tai Chi?

[@mengmao5033]

Yes. Shuaijiao was adapted from the Qing era imperial wrestling school, who practiced a close descendant of Mongolian bokh. Whatever they have in common is more to the fact that all grappling under similar rulesets would be similar.

[@contaparajogar1666]

they are similar but the shuai jiao tends to use more strength, not low postures but they are really similar I can show slight differences like pushing

[@MichaelWilliams-mo1vv]

How come we see these videos where a Chinese MMA guy challenges all these Tai Chi and kung fu masters and absolutely annihilates them?

[@CharlesBetancourt-iq9oe]

Most of these " masters" like wei Lei are counterfeit. I could call myself Obama,doesn't mean that's who I am.

[@contaparajogar1666]

Xu xiao dong does not challenge real fighters, but rather masters who make false advertisements

[@MichaelWilliams-mo1vv]

​@@contaparajogar1666 thanks I see

[@CharlesBetancourt-iq9oe]

You left out one word in your question. " FAKE". In other words " How come we keep seeing all these videos where an MMA fighter fights all these FAKE Chinese tai chi and kungfu masters and absolutely annihilates them? The answer is in that one word in the sentence.

[@CharlesBetancourt-iq9oe]

Be honest Do any of these clownfu "FAKE" masters in those video's have the same skill level as white shirt at timeframe 1:29.? Have a 360 degree awareness.

[@jacobhughes9010]

How do people really believe tai chi is a true form of combat? Lol

[@emperorjustice]

That first clip looks like the dude is just faking.

[@yunk6996]

IMHO, this is not an objective assessment of the capabilities of tai chi, when the skill level of the opponents is very different, it would be interesting to see someone experienced and skilled from Wudang or Shaolin.

[@CharlesBetancourt-iq9oe]

For the record, the tai chi guy n the white shirt at the last video took his opponent down five times, he did it in such a way that weight or rules didn't matter, the commentator chose not to show it. The video is " Tai chi vs. Wrestling ( maybe Greco Roman( other match - shadow Xu if you want to see.

[@carljohnson4285]

The guy with the Chinese flag Was getting held off by the Tai chi cat because he didn't even go for the legs not one time. So he wasn't even wrestling properly. Plus the Tai chi guy had a lot more weight on the wrestler

[@CharlesBetancourt-iq9oe]

The video indicates he's a Greco wrestle They can only tackle from the waist above.Please read my comments that are second from the top.

[@zairulazhar8845]

nah... tai chi guys looks weak coz they don't want to attack... just defense... if they know how to use tai chi for attack.. a wrestler guys don't have a chance at all.. 😅

[@emperorjustice]

Nevermind all of these throws kinda look fake.

[@JpNtchase]

I see judo no gi

[@CharlesBetancourt-iq9oe]

Old school judo yes. Today's Olympic sport judo I feel they throw and go to ground to much

[@xihangyang]

Look at the weight more weihgt win not tech

[@hardcoreromeo2111]

The wrestlers seemed so nice and gentle with these poor tai chi dudes

[@CharlesBetancourt-iq9oe]

What's ypur opinion on moment 2:00?

[@DouglasJohnson-d4s]

Tai chi guys are bigger

[@BobJohnson992]

Yeah, but when you put a real Taiji guy against a wrestler, it's very different. kzbin.info/www/bejne/g16bgpufi79jl7s

[@jdub7771]

Any Taiji other than Chen Village Taiji is just shitty shuaijiao

[@PaulFarley-z1o]

Unfortunately wether kung fu guys will admit it or not this is what happens if you try and wrestle a grappler

[@CharlesBetancourt-iq9oe]

1:21says you win.

[@daylejanzendayao1255]

😂😂

[@olocin3477]

Shuai jiao is the closest thing to real practical Kung fu that i have actually seen

[@ΣαΣα-σ3θ]

TAI CHI IS GOOD FOR HEALTH BUT IS WORST FOR SURVIVAL IN THE STREET

[@CharlesBetancourt-iq9oe]

So how good is Greco Roman wrestling for survival then?🤔🤔🤔🤔

[@contaparajogar1666]

we are talking about the same tai chi?

[@canaldesugestoesa6651]

third tai chi practitioner, he is bigger and heavier and this counts in a fight, even though he has difficulties and knocks down the shuai jhao practitioner