TANK Debate on Group Up! w/ Flats Bogur SVB Danteh

[@linkintomusic]

Imagine a team based game and nobody on your team wants to work as a team.

[@chuddolomite5]

The point where "it's so much responsibility for 1 tank" really hit. It's incredibly difficult to watch the front line, protect back line, try to isolate kills, and not get countered all at the same time. It's stressful. If only we could share the laundry list of responsibilities with someone else...

[@zkilla2924]

yeah half those things arent the tank’s job anymore. it sounds like you’re trying to be a main tank and off tank at the same time. off tanks dont exist anymore. in OW2 you’re supposed to play main tank and its your dps’s job to isolate kills and protect the backline. people dont understand that dps and support role actually matter now and the tank cant just do everything like in ow1

[@viktorradosavljevic702]

The main problem is that the reward just isnt proportional right now. It might still be too stressful for some, but if you were properly rewarded for that amount of stress and responsibility, the role would have a healthy playerbase of people who'd want that experience.

[@soccerthepkmnmaster]

I legit had a KZbin comment tell me that the reason tanks get 5x counter pick comps so often is because it is harder to counter tanks than it is to counter support and DPS. You don't run 5 Genji counters because a single Winston can easily counter a Genji, but a single Sombra is not enough to completely counter Hammond into swapping. Completely wild how some people think tank is an overpowered, easy and uncounterable role.

[@danielwhite1890]

I dont think anyone has really dove into the mentality that 1 tank brings You are now the sole provider for your team. It wasnt just mechanical synergy. Tank in ow2 is by intent more stressful than in ow1

[@GetOffGenji]

Danteh’s point about the new maps is so good. Flashpoint feels so horrible. It also made me realize that I really don’t like King of The Hill as well… oasis seems to be the only one I enjoy because of the prevalence of easily accessible high ground and very open spaces free of frustrating choke points.

[@hkeister1980]

Oh used to love koth maps in ow1 now I can’t stand them.

[@Capriwolven]

On top of that the dev team has technically released 4 "brawl/rush" tanks out of the five new tanks for ow2 (doom[rework], horse[rework], queen, ram, mauga). It's like they just forgot how to make high ground centered maps that are fun and engaging as well as the tanks that are strong on those maps... [Like yea monke is perfection but brother can't ya'll at least TRY?]

[@Capriwolven]

And yea Maui, ram, and horse have poke flavorings or cds but they are in "threat mode" when they are in your face so...ye

[@willwunsche6940]

Honestly I really love the new maps and King of The Hill is still by far my favorite mode. Oasis is the only one I hate too 😂... What heroes do you play? Maybe it's inherently part of our heroes strengths/palystyle?

[@GetOffGenji]

@@Capriwolven we all have our preferences I guess! I just think that nothing beats good old payload and hybrid. I love that there is constant (but not much back and fourth!), movement throughout the map. Never feels boring unless it’s a sniper-favouring map like circuit.

[@SolRise_yt]

Freedo, you have the most nuanced takes and you account for a lot of different angles than just your own perspective, and what YOU prefer in the game. You see the game from the top tier to ladder and, i really appreciate it

[@mun_e_makrpsn1328]

My biggest issue with playing tank at the moment is it always feels as if when we are losing it’s my fault, but when we are winning it’s our dps. It’s both how it feels, and the sentiment my team seems to hold.

[@IchigoTheQuincy]

Everyone has amazing points here but shout out to Flats and YourOverwatch for REALLY making me think about about what I think, really good points for both sides, I still think 6v6 is best for tank players BUT I am starting to see more now that it’s wishful thinking rather than “6v6 will fix everything” bc if no one is queuing for the role, it just won’t work. 6v6 with enough player to not only want to play the game but want to que tank as well is a pipe dream, that’s what I WANT but I do not know how to make players want to play tank enough to DOUBLE its player base so 6v6 que times could be viable. And on top of that 6v6 will come with its own set of problems on top of some reoccurring problem we have already seen through overwatch 1

[@leoepsilon8223]

The problem with the argument of 6v6 q times are bad cause no one plays tank is that it doesn't solve anything you have just kicked the problem down the road cause guess what tank players are not having fun so they leave or q for something else and then q times are bad again. Let's just go to 4v4 instead

[@StevenGeraci]

It's depressing hearing overwatch has to keep changing itself (even badly) just so its relevant.

[@StevenGeraci]

I get games should always change to be better, but the best overwatch has ever been was October 2020.

[@denjii9]

90% of these problems are either caused or greatly exacerbated by the lack of a tank

[@nemil2898]

Thanks Flats! The comment about leaning back to the MOBA roots hit home. That’s definitely what I think is missing. If I wanted FPS, I’d just play CS or Apex.

[@toons4934]

I fell in love with overwatch for the team work. I want to another tank to synergize with and anchor the team down as a main tank….. I don’t want COD I want a fps moba. And bRing back LFG !!!

[@censored861]

Swap queen shout and Kiri cleanse. Make Kiri give the temp speed boost with over health with her cooldown and Queen gives an AOE clense. These are the things that I think are worth considering.

[@Ghostyuyi]

When is flats getting new shirts

[@StevenGeraci]

The Great Map Debate when?

[@IchigoTheQuincy]

We need more new tanks like MULTIPLE or we just need 2-2-2 back

[@toons4934]

6v6 supremacy !!!!!

[@JamCooper]

Freedo is really frustrating to listen to sometimes. He seems like the stagnation of the game is really getting to him from a temperament and disposition standpoint, but he never says anything to indicate that so he just sounds kind of whiny and frustrated all of the time.

[@b23beatz]

What? I think he's the least jaded of anyone on this panel. I think he does a good job being fair. For the most part

[@cheeseblast]

I think he's wildly outta touch.

[@DemonTwink69]

Svb is truly an amazing moderator man

[@greyfalconow9467]

So Freedo, that question Flats was asking you about 2-2-2? I literally got a relevant clip on my channel about that, with you interviewing Scott Mercer. It's titled "BlizzCon 2018: Scott Mercer on Role Queue Tanks"

[@philipjennings4664]

Was disappointed that Danteh didn’t go into a several minute long rant about Winston’s dominance in pro play. Literally the best hero in the game at a pro level besides Tracer

[@BandannaBread]

I had a thought earlier, but I don't know if it'd be overkill. What if Tank's armor was a mixture of the new armor and old armor? It just used whatever resisted more damage. I don't think this would work without the current Damage Hero Passive though. Otherwise you'd just be flat out unkillable.

[@BandannaBread]

Adding to this. I think it'd need a lot of testing before consideration, of course. It's honestly hard for me to tell if this would be overkill. I don't know if this would feel bad for DPS, since it gives them more agency, but it might be too much agency. I do think the Role Passives per Tank would also need to get adjusted though. The more mobile heroes (And Orisa) don't need the 50% Knockback resistance tbh.

[@zeik27]

Loading screen hints that give good tank team match up recommendations. Or remove the tank roll, nerf them and just have support and dps, or maybe make 4 categories

[@Ttv6cono9]

As a doom main who never switches (I don’t play ow I play doom) even if they counter pick me, there’s something else I can do (pick off healers, dps etc) it’s only rly a big issue when the team swaps to counter me, then I’m screwed, but just switching hog/orisa rly isn’t enough

[@lunarro7]

"I don’t play ow I play doom" average doom player

[@Ttv6cono9]

@@lunarro7 I usually win tho🦾

[@Narwarlock]

I want to see 4v4 2cp with a 1,2,1 role lock, I believe thats what the current meta that would work best on those old maps

[@jorrellrichardson3181]

I severely disagree with most of Bogurs takes. He just wants to watch the world burn. He wants changes even if they're bad just so its different because he plays too much.

[@Ttv6cono9]

I love doomfist man, pushing into their spawn, nothin like punching their tank back into their spawn, mental warfare for their team too honestly

[@Bluemansonic]

2:35:57 ok after Flats said that, I think I'm gonna watch Freedo's stuff more from now on cuz he cares

[@chrisgamboa317]

i sensed there's tension between flats and freedo

[@dequanndillard7932]

He kinda rambles and flats seems like a straight shooter. Like when flats asked for the evidence on Jeff Kaplan saying game wasn't designed for 2-2-2 and he kinda avoided the question.

[@jremigio24]

Real talk every time I go vs a Dva they do not die !

[@kctheshadowman9651]

Same

[@problem-reactionsolution8426]

The other players dont value the tanks. Its not clear in gameplay for many players to stay with their tank. Direct rewards for team play would work best at this point. E.g. if you die while healing your tank you respawn faster, or other tanks you get a 3 second speed boost for healing. Maybe positive buffs are more effective on tanks? Maybe damage increases while in range of tank? Make people want to be with their tank because i don't think the player base understands the tank role or values them as team mates at all. I mean as zenyatta i can heal up a dps to full in a pinch but not so much on a rein so it's almost like why priortize the tank?

[@b23beatz]

You don't want to promote a stacking playstyle, that would enable poke or brawl entirely. Imagine mauga with E damage reduction plus life steal for the entire team PLUS whatever buff there is to playing with tank. For the most part people like dive more than brawl and poke comps and dive has a lot of flankers not much stacking. Taking angles will always be more fun than stacking with tank sit behind them everyone shoot one thing

[@DreadedLad88]

After queueing the role recently, I will definitely agree with how tanks are treated... The team expects so much from the Tank, especially in my rank. I want to apologize to the Tank mains out there... I didnt understand your struggle.

[@springroll4421]

its the worst part about 5v5, the counterswapping is one thing, but having the pressure of a whole team on your shoulders really takes a toll. You can't chill on tank like you can dps or support, thats a core part of why people don't enjoy tank so much.

[@ShyvanaOW]

Tbh I just want tanks to have high skill expression, have a lot of counter play options and just be one trickable. I think that we should have way more tanks that are like doom. Doom doesn't have infinite hp like most tanks but can make some crazy plays and you can outplay him by dodging his cooldowns and stuff if you have a brain. I think its better just in general for the game to have low hp tanks that have a lot of options vs high hp tanks that do nothing and just live.

[@DillonU2]

Guys guys guys I have a CRAZY solution for tank what if we added another tank to the game so it was 6v6

[@Bluemansonic]

Cuz this one is 15 seconds longer I'm watching it

[@michaels9595]

Limit tank swaps to like 1 or 2

[@michaels9595]

Need tank locks. One trick tanking only per game

[@milamber319]

I feel like we should go for 1 1 1 and 2 flex. With max 2 if any role. And make queuing for all roles be the only way to get into those flex role slots. Then you can go double tank and with the healnnerf that might be quite bad and you lose some dps passive. Edit for clarity.

[@michaelpierro4116]

haha then u could go TRIPLE tank!

[@milamber319]

@@michaelpierro4116 I did say limit 2 lol

[@soccerthepkmnmaster]

@@milamber319 If you make flex queue the only way to get into the 2 flex roles, it might just kill queue time even harder than 222 role lock. A lot of people like to main a specific role and flex role is generally not very popular (especially since it is basically a 2nd tank queue). If you now have 2 spots dedicated to it, then might not be enough flex players to create a good queue time.

[@milamber319]

@@soccerthepkmnmaster then players are gaming themselves. If you are a dps who can flex healer you have a high chance of getting flex slot and being able to play either dps or healer. The trade off is you get a 1 in 5 chance you have to play tank. Right now if you choose all roles flex you have a very high chance of getting tank so people don't pick that. Basically anyone who is willing to flex all role will get the best queue times and also have a high chance of playing a role they want.

[@soccerthepkmnmaster]

@@milamber319 The best queue time for one role is a worst queue time for all others. Your idea only works if at least 40% of entire playerbase is willing to lock the flex role. This is double what the tank role requires. If the playerbase does not reach 40% flex queue. DPS and support queue time will sky rocket to hours long queue times. Probably as bad as 222 had it. It is incredibly dangerous to assume making 1112 role lock will sudden increase the flex player count from

[@CitizenCage]

it's a flawed game at its core. a game should align with human nature. This one clearly doesn't. That's a problem with the game, as human nature cannot be changed

[@luissplits7016]

I don’t like how SVB thinks he’s all that, like he’s in charge telling Frito to hurry up & talk & rushing him smh. Like let him talk!

[@hexia6760]

SVB doesn't do this enough. Nobody want's to hear anyone yapping for 5 minutes straight, no matter who it is.

[@luissplits7016]

@@hexia6760 I do :)

[@nmxphilip]

I like the take that tanks are playing MOBA while everyone else is playing shooter. My hot take as someone who likes RPGs. We should go to a 1 tank 1 Healer and 3 DPS. I think then they should add at least 2 more cool down abilities to each tank. and 1 ability 1 passive to the healer. Each season they could change them around to change things up.

[@porcupinezebra648]

the first thing we should do to fix the game is to nerf all the do everything supports

[@mondragon078]

What's up with all the weird bots commenting nowadays?? 😅😅

[@itzpurple_queen9711]

Pretty much any video on the site gets these bots in the comments 😂😂😂

[@TheBlackBantha]

Boo! Flats sucks. Should’ve got Harbleu or Ace of Spades.

[@joshneal4767]

Freedom always thinking he is 100 percent right about the 6v6 thing and talking down to everyone else that mentions it or mew ideas he belittles them. Hopefully he stops getting invited to the group up.