TDG: Cody's Top Ten Historical Games - Not Wargames (August 2023)

Join Cody as he takes a look at his top ten historical games that aren't wargames.
Cody Carlson, PhD: / @codycarlsonph.d.5591
Facebook: / thediscriminatinggamer
Twitter: / codyk76
Galaxy of Games: galaxyof.games/

[@smmikeman]

I just picked up Twilight Struggle last month on the computer during the Steam sale. It’s fun!

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Great game!

[@jeffwilkens7824]

Others to consider, Imperial struggle ( I like it better than twilight cause you don't have those scoring cards) and Churchill, which is the predecessor of Versailles, Great Game by Legion, Pax Pamir and John Company by Whirlegig and of Course the one that started it all Diplomacy by AH

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Thanks!

[@stephenwolter6689]

I will second one of the above-mentioned recommendations: John Company, from Wherlegig Games. Complex and very immersive--the historical aspect is strong. There is some brief combat actions, but it is primarily a negotiation game.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Thanks!

[@antoyal]

Ooo, those are some good games, and a neat idea for a list. I'd sure love to play Black Orchestra at some point. As for my favorite historical games, _Pax_ _Porfiriana_ and its spiritual successor, _Pax_ _Pamir,_ are both fun and fascinating. Does _Through_ _the_ _Ages_ count as an historical game? If so, then that one for sure. _Maquis_ is a tight, tense solitaire game with a really nice production for such a small game. _The_ _Mission_ is a really cool game about the spread of Christianity. All of these games teach you some of the history, but they're all fun.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Thanks!

[@RayPhay]

Black Orchestra is one of my favorite games. Great choices.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Indeed! Great game!

[@FredAlleanKabaret]

amazing choices, Black Orchestra, Freedom and Twilight Struggle are gems

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Thanks!

[@bgm-1961]

I'd also suggest: - 'Founding Fathers' (by Jolly Rogers Games), not to be confused with... - 'Founding Fathers' (by Up and Away Games). - 'Lewis & Clark: The Expedition' (by Laudonaute) - Any of the space race games (i.e., 'One Small Step' by Academy Games, or 'Tranquility Base' by Worthington, or 'Space Race' by Boardcubator, etc).

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

I really have always wanted to play FF. Hoping for a reprint.

[@seanobrien798]

Twilight Struggle is a favorite of mine. Looking forward to the one set in South Asia. I like Apollo, a game about trying to get a successful mission to the Moon. Not sure if it's a war game or how much history can be learned from it, but Republic of Rome (old Avalon Hill version) is a good one with the right group.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Cool. Thanks!

[@daveseidnergd]

Great list, Cody! Love 1960, Watergate and Votes for Women. I’m really interested in Versailles 1919, as well as Churchill and Pericles, which are based on the same system. I’d echo some of the other recommendations, especially John Company 2nd Edition, Pax Porfiriana and Pax Pamir. I’d also add Pax Renaissance (my personal favorite historical game) and GMT’s new solitaire game: Mr. President: The American Presidency 2001 - 2020.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Yeah. Mr President is Great.

[@hairbrainedgames3127]

Twilight Struggle remains supreme as the greatest game I've ever played. No argument there. Solid list, all entries are top notch. I doubt I could have stopped at 10, would almost want top 20 because of the wealth of options out there. I think Churchill and Pax Renaissance would be in my top historical games. The Mission. Mr. President. Border Reivers rapidly rising into my favorites list as well. Founding Fathers. Cold War: CIA vs KGB. So many good choices these days.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Thanks!

[@Socialdogma]

1960 has one of my favorite card pictures - Nixon shaking someone’s hand at a campaign stop while looking at his watch - so dismissive and completely obsessed with where else he should be that it’s comical.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Ha!

[@heikkihegemon493]

Twilight Struggle works amazingly well on digital format. Not going to play the board version again...

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Haven't played the digital format. Can't imagine every leaving the board game behind.

[@heikkihegemon493]

@@TheDiscriminatingGamer I know the feeling, but with certain games it just is the best choice. Exeption to the rule!

[@jpotter2086]

Agree, but man I wish the AI would hurry up :D Another game better as an app is Ticket to RIde. Play whole games in minutes.

[@foodflights1408]

Versailles is a fantastic game. My wife loves playing that game and she is normally running from historical games. I also have a feeling that when it comes time for this list next year, we'll see Mr. President on it.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

You may have something there. So I’d see a doctor and get rid of it.

[@terryp3034]

Great concept for a top ten! Really interesting games. Nice to see a Mayfair game make the cut.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Thanks!

[@rockhopper01]

A worthy list! Twilight Struggle is easily our #1 game as well. My lovely bride isn’t a wargamer, but she’s always down for coffee and Twilight Struggle.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Great game. Thanks!

[@jeffa6841]

Black Orchestra is such a great, tense, fun game.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Right?

[@bluewolverine51]

Thank you! I have been debating on getting Making of President 1960. Definitely going to pick it up after wathigb this 🙂 have you ever done your top ten hex and counter war games? I would love to hear what they are!

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Thats one I intend to get to some time. Thanks!

[@ifnyou]

Some great selections here. I think my favourite which you don't mention is Imperial Struggle... like TS before it, you need to play quite a few times before it fully comes to life, but once you start to get a feeling for it, I think it just gets better and better...

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Cool. I liked IS, but never fell in love with it. Thanks.

[@bdgza]

@@TheDiscriminatingGamer I agree. IS is a good game, but it just doesn't seem to have that same je ne sais quoi as TS.

[@allenatkins2263]

" Make the best of bad decisions." That pretty much sums up my life.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Ha!

[@citizenmake]

Thank you for the video. I was teaching history through board games in a school, and the problem was to find accessible historical games for more than 2 players. Recently, I started to run a workshop on historical, political, and artistic games in Berlin, and you list was somewhat helpful... but again, most of the games are way too complicated and made for 2 players. Freedom Underground and Votes for Women are on my list, I didn't know about Black Orchestra, gotta check it out. Twilight Struggle looks not very appealing, and I found it very frustrating for such a long and demanding game to be so luck dependent, it's ok for games such Memoir, but not here. I personally love Martin Wallace's approach to game design, and I believe his Brass and a Few Acres of Snow are probably the best historical board games ever made. I also admire games by Berlin game publisher Histogame, Maria and Friedrich are wonderful and accessible wargames, though I didn't love Wir Sind das Folk, but unlike GMT's Excel-looking games, Histogame make a great job in terms of illustrations and production. As I wrote in the beginning, the problem is to find short, light, accessible games for bigger player-counts. So the best game in such categories for now is Secret Hitler. I also ordered Coup: Guatemala 1954, which I hope will be a success.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

That sounds like a great class. Some good games there. As I recall, AFAOS is broken. There is one strategy that can let one side win every time. Personally, I love TS. I don’t mind done luck. Von Clausewitz tells us That “War is the Realm of Chance.”

[@citizenmake]

@@TheDiscriminatingGamerThank you, it was quite interesting indeed. I've heard about it, but two need to play countless times to learn it themselves. So I believe it is really unfair to put such a label on that amazing and beautiful game. I love input random in games, when you decide how to deal with the cards you've got, but when you make the decision and it is solely up to the dice... I like how it is done in Gloomhaven, when you can get +/-2 to the initial hit, but not like there is a 50% chance of miss. I believe there are lots better game mechanics on the market today.

[@Unzepe]

Excellent list, I personally like Wir Sind das Volk, about the rise and fall of Germany after WW2. Just like twilight struggle carddriven but you must choose from an open set of cards.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

That’s one I’ve always wanted to play.

[@klavierfruhlingswochen4825]

I will cry in my pillow, that Europe Divided is not featured in this great list.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

It’s a great game, for sure.

[@klavierfruhlingswochen4825]

@@TheDiscriminatingGamer 🙂👍🙋🏼‍♂️

[@richx5064]

A bit off topic. Maybe in the future you can give us your review of the best mafia/organized crime games.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

I’ve thought about that. I’d have to play a few more. Thanks.

[@inwyrdn3691]

Come 2211, Risk 2210 will be the greatest historical game of all time. On a more serious note, I still need to play Freedom: The Underground Railroad. One day I'll snag a copy.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Freedom is great.

[@inwyrdn3691]

I'm going to assume you mean both the game and the overall concept.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

@@inwyrdn3691 indeed!

[@KSweeney36]

I like Maquis for a historical game. Great little solo game.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Thanks!

[@jpotter2086]

Top 10 notaWargames .... bet none are Here I Stand ... let's go! _____________ Well, hey, nice list. The history games I would like to see would be simulations of labor struggles. If the market isn't providing, design your own I says.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Thanks!

[@bdgza]

Totally agree on Twilight Struggle.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Great game!

[@bgm-1961]

THANK YOU for NOT putting 'Votes for Women' in the wargame category! :)

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Happy to oblige.

[@boardnwargames]

Great list! Twilight Struggle Struggle Red Sea has felt a bit underwhelming for me

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

I think it’s great for what it is- a quick TS game.

[@boardnwargames]

@@TheDiscriminatingGamer For sure, but I'd wish they had made it a bit more different, new/different mechanics vs TS while keeping the core mechanics

[@ColonelKurtz]

Where would Wir sind das Volk! be if this list was longer than the 10 games?

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Haven't played it. But I'd like to.

[@paulmccaffrey2985]

Those jokes! Love 'em!

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Thanks!

[@wartable]

Resist is one solitaire game I can play more than 2 or 3 times per seating

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Great game!

[@nickvandam1214]

Love this list

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Thanks!

[@nickvandam1214]

@@TheDiscriminatingGamer I have several games on this list, and I saw your review of Bleeding Kansas that looks good. I also have Unforgiven: The Lincoln Assassination Trial, and Commissioned which might fit this category as well.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

@@nickvandam1214 I have not reviewed, nor played, Bleeding Kansas.

[@nickvandam1214]

@TheDiscriminatingGamer sorry I got mixed up, you might like that one, it is on my want list.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

@@nickvandam1214 Yeah. Sounds fun. Thanks.

[@MarkCMG]

Thanks for the video! Too many of these are actually wargames, even if they don't focus on combat. Any game dealing with the "diplomacy" of war is still a wargame, even without combat. It surprises me that only one of your choices predates the turn of this century and eight of the thirteen (including the honorable mentions) aren't even a decade old. 3 Honorable Mentions Banish the Snakes: A Game of St. Patrick in Ireland (2023) Charioteer (2022) Resist! (2022) 10 - The Downfall of Pompeii (2004) 9 - Freedom: The Underground Railroad (2013) 8 - Watergate (2019) 7 - Votes for Women (2022) 6 - Origins of World War II (1971) 5 - 1960: The Making of the President (2007) 4 - 1989: Dawn of Freedom (2012) 3 - Versailles 1919 (2020) 2 - Black Orchestra (2016) 1 - Twilight Struggle (2005) Many of Uwe Rosenberg's games would be historical in nature and have nothing to do with war. Not sure how Lewis & Clark: The Expedition (2013) didn't make this list. The two Brass games, Brass: Lancashire (2007) and Brass: Birmingham (2018), would be excellent inclusions as would Hansa Teutonica (2009). There must be dozens of award-winning train games with historical themes that could have been included, as well. While many of these are good games in their own right, I think you might want to revisit this video idea with a bit more research and thought.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

I guess we disagree on what constitutes a Wargame. Thanks.

[@MarkCMG]

@@TheDiscriminatingGamer Indeed. BBG includes a category they call "wargame" which includes Twilight Struggle (2005), your top choice for a board game which isn't a wargame, and also includes 1989: Dawn of Freedom (2012), Origins of World War II (1971), and Resist! (2022). On BBG one of the "types" of games is "wargames" and includes Twilight Struggle (2005), Versailles 1919 (2020), 1989: Dawn of Freedom (2012), Origins of World War II (1971), and Resist! (2022). I've been playing wargames since the early 1970s and have learned that not all wargames are games that include combat. It might be worth reassessing your categorization to something more discriminating. 😉

[@BrianMarcus-nz7cs]

Very good video m8 , Have u tried Secret Weapons of the Third Reich?? ? interesting,,,, is the Elvis visit Nixon card in the Watergate game ??? Hou nd dauwggg 🫥🫥🫥😶‍🌫️

[@JoshuaLivie]

I definitely agree with Cody on this one. In general, wargamers do not include those games in the war game genre, since they do not include combat. I don't think he should reassess his opinion and his definition at all. I think he was up front on his definition as well.

[@MarkCMG]

@@JoshuaLivie Naw, changing the meaning of established categories isn't a good start. As said above, I've been a wargamer over fifty years and help manage a game store. These aren't just categories made up by Board Game Geek, these have been established for decades, industry-wide. Certainly, someone can say they intend to include wargames that don't have a combat mechanic but that isn't the same as saying they aren't wargames if they don't have a combat mechanic because it simply isn't the standard.

[@vstar7196]

Videos like this convince me that the poster has absolutely no idea what they’re talking about.