Bomber Harris was a war hero, not a war criminal | History Defended

Arthur ‘Bomber’ Harris has been compared to Stalin, Pol Pot and even Hitler. However author Jeremy Black defends Harris against accusations of committing war crimes via his carpet-bombing strategy in the latest episode of History Defended. Watch the full video above or listen on your podcast app.
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[@samrodian919]

Two years down the road from this video, I've watched an interview conducted with a Then current Group Captain who went onto Air Vice Marshal rank and Harris gave lucid answers to the questions put to him one being about the efficacy of the bombing campaign, and he quotes from Former German Armaments Minister Albert Speer about how much devastation of the cities and factories basically reduced the ability of the German nation to wage the war, Speer put it at around One Third. THAT alone makes the sacrifice of "my boys" or " the old lags" in Harris's terms worth it and by that estimation it must have shorted the war by two years. Harris was a remarkable man and a true British Hero in my view.

[@petercarroll5874]

One very important point that was missed is, who ordered the bombing of Dresden? In an interview after the war, Harris himself was almost blase when Dresden was raised. His first point was, "the order to bomb Dresden came from Eisenhower's headquarters". Not surprising when Eisenhower had been Supreme Allied Commander since June 1942. One other point that was completely missed re Dresden was, the air raids before and after the RAF raid of 12/13 Feb 1945, by the USAAF. The USAAF bombed Dresden seven times in total during WW2 (the RAF twice on one night), with two of those raids on the two consecutive days after the RAF raid.

[@lawomega1]

Well said Peter !

[@alexanderd6793]

Not only that, the actual request to bomb the city came from the Soviets, which used it as propaganda during the cold War.

[@MrJafredderf]

General Sherman in the American Civil War said "War is all Hell", before his March from Atlanta to the sea he said "civilians are the people who support war" his argument for destroying crops, railroads, farms, ravaging the countryside was to destroy the resources of the rebellion. Civilians were killed, civilians starved, industry and food supplies were stopped. Sherman did as much as Harris to end that War. The allies declared total war on Germany and Japan. Harris and Oppenheimer played their roll in total war.

[@conradgittins4476]

It's one thing to criticise Harris today but I would challenge anyone to come up with a different strategy given the circumstances of the war in the 1940's.

[@colincole9642]

Disgraceful how he was treated after the war. He was a hero and cared about his men.

[@princesibanda9594]

Bomber Harris, winner of the Great British Bake-off 1944 edition.

[@wolfgangkramm4694]

Bomber Harris was a war criminal

[@dangibbs5390]

The British Holocaust.

[@West_Coast_Gang]

Based

[@debbest8546]

Yup!

[@marseldagistani1989]

Arthur ''Aerial cremation of the Aryan nation'' Harris: Did nothing wrong

[@kabir4990]

Did he really say that? Targeting civilians in this way is such a war crime and people think it's good!

[@magna4100]

The interviewer was subsequently awarded the Iron Cross.

[@darkknight6432]

The Germans sowed the wind now they'll reap the whirlwind

[@Vfl666]

Just one more time please

[@rezo6212]

Targeted bombing of civilians is a war crime regardless of which country carried it out. Germany started it and the others joined in. At that time, however, there was no legal basis for war crimes. From today's perspective, it was a war crime.

[@BengtStangvik]

@@rezo6212 What about killing civillians on board a ship bringing food to a country under sige? Is that a war crime?

[@philipritson8821]

From today's perspective, he wouldn't have had the opportunity to undertake area bombing. Nor would he have had to.

[@jacobprice2579]

War, is indescribably horrific. Despite all the history books warning us against it, we keep letting out politicians drag us into them and the result is tens of thousands dead and a few political goals achieved. Sometimes it’s worth it, sometimes it isn’t. In WW2, it was worth it. Something that isn’t mentioned here, or at least I missed if it was, is Harris was in a unique position to understand the humanitarian need to end the war as swiftly as possible and thus, save as many lives as possible. His command suffered a casualty rate of: 45% killed in action, 6% wounded and 8% captured (some crossover between figures such as men wounded once, recovering and then being captured). That’s a rounded casualty rate of 6 in every 10 men under his command across the war. The strategic bombing campaign was horrific. It killed tens of thousands of people in terrible ways. Including people who were entirely innocent. The result, Germany’s ability to produce munitions and wage war was severely hampered throughout and ultimately destroyed. Though no one can say for sure to what degree, this shortened the war considerably and in so doing saved many more lives, including innocents, than it cost. It’s bloody and it’s unacceptable under any other circumstances. These weren’t any other circumstances.

[@luclafor]

Er... Major aerial bombardments carried out under his orders December 18, 1939: Battle of Heligoland Bay (failure of an air raid which made the British decide to carry out their bombardments at night). March 8, 1942: bombardment of Essen, followed by various incendiary raids on fourteen towns in the Ruhr. March 29, 1942: bombardment of Lübeck, a city of 153,000 inhabitants, the first massive bombardment of a large city, which first targeted the city center. April 29, 1942: bombing of Rostock for eight nights in a row. May 30, 1942: bombardment of Cologne, a city of 70,000 inhabitants by 1,047 bombers, killing between 450 and 500 and approximately 150,000 displaced; March - July 1943: Battle of the Ruhr; July 24, 1943: Operation Gomorrah in Hamburg, killing 40,000 inhabitants and wounding 80,000; November 18 to March 31, 1944: bombing of Berlin March 8, 1944: bombardment of Rennes, 274 civilians killed, 172 civilians injured, 137 buildings destroyed and 2,568 buildings damaged, burial of the 274 dead in the presence of Pierre Cathala, Minister of Vichy; March 30, 1944: bombing of Nuremberg; January 5, 1944: bombing of downtown Royan, a seaside town, with no military objective; seven Mosquitos guide the bombers by beaconing, with 1,242 red and green rockets, the true objective, the center, a quadrilateral to be crushed under a carpet of bombs. The attack takes place in two waves in order to better destroy the city. 842 killed or injured out of 2,232 inhabitants; April 19, 1944 (900 dead), May 30, 1944 to June 9, 1944 (1,600 dead), June 24, 1944: Bombing of Rouen killing 3,500 including no Germans, 30,000 homeless and 9,500 buildings destroyed. June 6, 1944: bombardment of Caen for 78 days in a row, destroying more than 75% of the city; June 9, 1944, June 12, 1944 and June 17, 1944: bombardment of Rennes; June 13, 1944 and June 13, 1944: bombing of Vannes; June 13, 1944: bombardment of Évreux, destruction of the entire old town centre; September 5, 1944: bombardment of Le Havre, Colonel Bruckhart Wildermuth, German commander of a garrison besieged for 12 days, had asked that the entire civilian population of the city be evacuated, but the British refused. He had the 40,000 civilians assembled in the historic center of Le Havre, and guaranteed the Allies that there would be no soldiers in this area, his troops being stationed on the heights of the city and on the outskirts. The British air force bombarded the city for five consecutive days, operating about 2,000 sorties by 500 bombers which dropped 5,000 tons of explosive bombs and 200,000 phosphorus bombs. The city is 95% destroyed. November 27, 1944: Operation Tigerfish, bombardment of Fribourg; 2,797 dead. September 16, 1943 and September 23, 1943: bombing of Nantes; February 13, 1945: bombardment of Dresden, a city of 740,000 inhabitants, causing approximately 35,000 deaths according to the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) February 17, 1945: bombardment of Wesel, a town of 24,000 inhabitants, reduced to 1,900 on February 19 February 23, 1945: bombardment of Pforzheim, a town of no military importance renowned for its watchmaking and its churches; 17,600 dead. February 27, 1945: bombardment of Mainz, a heritage city. the RAF dropped in three successive waves 514,000 incendiary bombs, 42 flare bombs, 235 strategic bombs and 484 blockbuster bombs. The attack lasted in all and for a whole quarter of an hour (from 4:30 p.m. to 4:45 p.m.) and changed the city into a gigantic torch. It killed around 1,200 people, including all the monks of the Capuchin convent. March 16, 1945: bombardment of Würzburg, an old baroque episcopal city full of artistic riches. May 2, 1945: bombardment of Potsdam, an upscale suburb of Berlin, equivalent to Versailles in France May 3, 1945: bombing of the hospital ships Cap Arcona, Thielbek and Deutschland Bombing of Normandy Bombing of Brittany (Rennes, Vannes, Lannion, Saint-Malo, Morlaix, Saint-Brieuc, Nantes, Saint-Nazaire, Lorient, Brest, etc.). En savoir plus sur ce texte sourceVous devez indiquer le texte source pour obtenir des informations supplémentaires Envoyer des commentaires Panneaux latéraux

[@Gorbyrev]

Bomber Command suffered casualties on a par with the British Infantry in the frontline in WWI yet they were given no official memorial until 2012. During the opening months after Dukirk it was the one arm of the British military that could reach Germany, even if it was at great cost. Bomber Command disrupted Operation Sealion, the German plan to invade the British Isles. It has been estimated that Bomber Command kept 100,000 guns off the Eastern Front and disabled German Industrial production. It was a grim but necessary strategy to pursue. It was always possible for the Axis powers to surrender. We owe a great debt of thanks to Bomber Command.

[@lionelgower6877]

Agreed. I'm unable to comment on this topic, as it is not possible.

[@abzzeus]

and the Dam Busters caused the Atlantic wall to be missing concrete and AA guns as they were deployed at the Dams.

[@ralphbernhard1757]

After 1941 (Barbarossa) there was no threat of a German invasion. "Area Bombing" as a policy was decided in 1942. So your "cover story" doesn't match up, does it?

[@Gorbyrev]

@@ralphbernhard1757 That detail is true but the point was not to defend area bombing but to point out the strategic importance of Bomber Command and courage of the Bomber Boys. My other points stand as do many made by the historian in the video. After D-Day there were an average of 6500 casualties per day on all sides of the conflict. If Germany's ability to pursue the war had not been weakened by the actions of Bomber Command the war would have lasted longer and would likely have claimed many more lives. It is not a matter of defending Area Bombing but of the grim realities of bringing the conflicts on the Western and Eastern fronts to a conclusion.

[@ralphbernhard1757]

@@Gorbyrev Yes, they were brave but to quote Tolkien "they were all of them deceived". It wasn't "factory space" or "workers" which (solely) limited German production. It was raw materials. Europe lacked key resources, placing a natural cap on any German (or continental European country's) production.

[@Backwardlooking]

Absolutely true.

[@AnthonyBrown12324]

He wasn't keen on the oil and transport campaigns and was almost forced to get involved by Portal . Actually the TV film with John Thaw is quite a good portrait of Harris. He had become to fixed by the beginning of 1944 . He couldn't see that Bomber Command was more capable of hitting strategic targets by then. A more adaptable commander would have been better by 1944 , His first year was quite successful.

[@DPG214]

Sir Arthur Harris was a hero, as is this historian defending him.

[@pevlez]

Arthur "RAF lit AF" Harris

[@eliw.1197]

Nah, this historian is not a hero.

[@Rimsim1520]

Harris and Curtis Lemay massive assasins of civils.

[@eliw.1197]

@@Rimsim1520 I agree. They were monsters.

[@West_Coast_Gang]

@@eliw.1197 cope wehrb

[@darkknight6432]

Do it again Bomber Harris!

[@ricdavid7476]

The author was pretty coherent who is he.

[@bobg1069]

what a naïve interviewer. He shows what is so wrong about many of his generation, who seem incapable of logical, rational discussion and the consideration of historical perspective. Jeremy Black comprehensively deals with his naivety and poor questioning.

[@christopherpearce2831]

The interveiwer has a flipant attidtude towards the subject that highlights his own inability to understand anything outside his snowflake mentality

[@julioflorescertifiedtherap1425]

Damn right

[@jogiff]

I’m glad he asked the questions he did, but it did feel like he might have agreed with the questions himself

[@davidbrear8642]

The fact that Britain is a country where these matters can be freely discussed, is perhaps the most-powerful, and obvious, justification of Harris' prosecution of the air war.

[@chascowie6977]

His statue should stand, and the interviewer should be dismissed and replaced with someone who has a better overall understanding of the issues. This interviewer di nothing to add to the understanding of "Bomber Harris."

[@wolfgangkramm4694]

Bomber Harris was a war criminal

[@EternalEmperorofZakuul]

It should be replaced with Bomber Harris burning in hell statue

[@jacobprice2579]

I think he did quite a good job actually. Asked the questions, including the “controversial” points, and allowed his subject to respond and make the case.

[@ktu668]

Harris was in the same league has Hitler.

[@AbrahamLincoln4]

@@ktu668 But more based

[@West_Coast_Gang]

If I get a country I will have a statue of him built

[@SworBeyE16]

I think his very vocal opposition to and resentment towards orders to bomb strategically relevant targets such as oil in 1944, thus suspending the deliberate targeting of civilians; sums up his character and personality rather well...

[@atatexan]

I generally like Steven’s work this time he acts too much the antagonist. Fortunately Jeremy Black is up to the task of taking postwar hand-wringing for what it is. In my view the two most effective RAF leaders, Arthur Harris and HCT Dowding, have both been treated unfairly. It was moving to me to see their statues at St. Clement Dane. We Americans have our own moralist hand-wringers when it comes to General Curtis LeMay and President Truman. All in all the student of history found the interview to be very good. I will certainly look into Prof. Black’s books.

[@AbrahamLincoln4]

*Most based telegraph take*

[@Djehuti-ze9ce]

Bomber Harris Superstar! Do it again!

[@matthewpoole7752]

He was a great man

[@JamesHenderson-wk4hd]

For Communism and Islam.

[@Wilhelm322]

Great at slaughtering 600.000 Innocent German Civilians.

[@EternalEmperorofZakuul]

Too bad he didn't have the balls to face Stalin and demand freedom for the suffering the red army inflicting on occupied Europe... In fact he stood silently as Stalin took Poland, which the Allies that England was part of and who promised will be there to defend it, and made it a communist satellite nation

[@Wilhelm322]

@@arkos1719 He couldn’t have cared less about the Suffering he inflicted on German Civilians when he was sitting at his Desk but if he was in say Würzburg during the 17 Minute Bombing of the City on March 16th 1945 and the resulting Firestorm he probably would have understood why the Germans hated him, why People said they would murder him if they got their hands on him.

[@atheistyoda8915]

@@Wilhelm322 They sowed the wind, and reaped the whirlwind. Cry harder, wehraboo.

[@Thunder0010]

In war all choices are the hardest what ever they are if he and the others hadn't have done it someone would have, so he had to make the hardest of choices and they helped bring peace today, so he is a hero.

[@emil-1609]

The problem people have with him that is "strategy" showed to be very inefficient and its only real effect was mass killing of civilians. Yet he still thre many lives of his own and the Germans away, for a campaign giving so little to the military effort and costing so much. His contribution to the victory is questionable. He also gassed civilians in iraq so he is truly among the worst people.

[@SSPanzee]

War Criminal

[@MrDavidht]

@@emil-1609 Germans invented the use of gas in war.

[@paulcarpenter885]

@@SSPanzee haha lancaster go brrrr

[@MarkHarrison733]

He helped to make Europe Communist and Islamic.

[@peterdixon7975]

Why is Jack Whitehall trying to wind up a Historian?

[@summerbankboy]

Harris did his job to the best of his ability no one is perfect and can make mistakes, but he did what he thought was right at the time This was all out war that most of us have no experance of so who are we to judge his actions. many many of his boys did not come back they died for us so we should honor and remember them and honor Harris too

[@wolfgangkramm4694]

Bomber Harris was a war criminal

[@SSPanzee]

Bombed and burned millions of civilians. "Did his job" The hypocrisy of so called good guys is ridiculous. UK deserve total apocalypse, same with US for their crimes of civilians.

[@toptiercontent7123]

@@SSPanzee "crimes of civilians" against the country that enacted the worst genocide in human history

[@erich2432]

@@toptiercontent7123 Funny, the narratives such as "Dresden a war crime" and Bomber Harris being a war criminal are being pushed by your fellow Brits. Why did Churchill and government abandon Arthur right after the war? Why no medals were served to the Bomber Crew? Dresden: A Holocaust was pushed by one of your own. No German has pushed any sort of such narratives. He will be called Goebbels admirer anyway even if he does. Now, don't tell me Arthur's statue being vandalized has anything to do with Germany. Lol! Your own people protested against it. Remainers and the so-called EU lover Brits are your own people too. Germany has no influence in your internal issues. Brits blame Germany for Brexit, yet your own ex-PM David Cameron introduced the Brexit vote. Besides, it's hardly surprsing seeing anti-German sentiments from British lads. British folks celebrate bombing of Dresden, Cologne, Hamburg on social media, in stadiums etc. Imagine the ramifications if a German somehow mentions about the Blitz. Lol!

[@MrDavidht]

@@wolfgangkramm4694 no he was just bombing a nation of war crimnals.

[@-DC-]

Bomber Command the Bravest of the Brave, Never forget the sacrifice that was made for your freedom.

[@janko7245]

at least we arent speaking german, right guys? right?

[@moparman1692]

The courage of the airmen is not at question here, rather the strategy embraced by its leaders..

[@emil-1609]

And Harris willingly threw their lives away with such a prude evil and inefficient strategy. Not to mention that these terror raids worked against their supposed goal of breaking German morale.

[@eh1600]

@@janko7245 Yep, pretty based

[@MrDavidht]

@@emil-1609 the way the Blitz, dive bombers, V bombs etc were intended to break civilian moral.

[@quillLADS]

17:00

[@markus98h66]

Should we take a Arthur Harris strategy on Russia civilian as well, to create more economic damage to russian regime? I think yes!

[@ralphbernhard1757]

Putin would then return the favor with nukes.

[@andrewbarten7347]

Harris understood the arab very well.

[@matthewlawrenson7508]

There's never been a perfect hero. We can expect people to be good and bad. Report the facts. We can decide...but methinks he doth protest too much

[@wolfgangkramm4694]

Bomber Harris was a war criminal

[@SSPanzee]

Victors write history. He was an evil. Responsible for Holocaust in Germany

[@juno_the8774]

Murdering civilians and deliberately timing your bombings to murder as many rescue servicemen as possible is not an imperfection.

[@szeddezs]

Maybe we should dispense with such childish notions as "heroes" alltogether.

[@rockyblacksmith]

@@szeddezs Nothing wrong with recognising and people as heroes who, say, put their lives on the line to save others. But often times, heroes are turned into pseudo-Saints, who can not be criticised or questioned in any way. THAT we could do away with.

[@RD2564]

Bomber Harris made it rain 4,000 pounders on wehraboo ... Hero.

[@ralphbernhard1757]

The story of how the Brits lost their Empire... The big picture... And of all the "big pictures", this is the biggest of all... The worst choice of all was ignoring the reality of how Europe had been "set up" to protect the British Empire. The British Empire was actually protected in Europe by uniquely "balancing powers" on the continent. [Search for London's Policy of Balance of Power] For more than 100 years, "balancing powers" on the continent, kept these powers opposing each other, unable to divert military or economic resources to affront the status of the British Empire as the nr.1 in the world... According to the logic of this policy, completely ruining a power on the continent, would lead to an imbalance, which could then be directed at the British Empire... Therefore, totally destroying Germany was neither wise nor in GB 's interests. Concerning WW2. Firstly, a 100% collapse of Germany as a power...was a dream condition for communism (Moscow) and US corporatism (Washington D.C.). After WW2, there was no strong Central Europe to "balance out" the rise of communism (Moscow). France broken, pissed off by Mers el Kebir and slipped under Washington's wings... Germany = alles kaputt Eastern Europe = overrun by the commies... GB was no longer the boss. Nothing left to "balance" with... Sorreee. That's just how it goes if your eternal "balancing" games on the continent go south... Washington got tired of bailing GB out, and decided to become the "balancer of powers" in Europe herself. And down went the British Empire too...wind, wind, whirlwind, hurricane, game over...

[@danielsebald5639]

Incorrect

[@cassetteboost]

seethe

[@philipritson8821]

Arthur Harris? Really.

[@nonautemrexchristus5637]

DO IT AGAIN

[@emil-1609]

Antifa hypocrites at it again

[@nonautemrexchristus5637]

@@emil-1609 Bomber Harris is the ultimate ANTIFA supersoldier, crisped a good few of em from bomber command

[@alexgaelsotorodriguez3870]

@@nonautemrexchristus5637 Those poor Iraqis he gassed must have been some serious white supremacists

[@SSPanzee]

Antifa trash will suffer. Its matter of time.

[@doctordoom1954]

Do what again?

[@iachi73]

Era una brava persona.. salutava sempre. Assassino spietato

[@getevennow]

“ War is a miscalculation” - Stephen Kotkin

[@meht43-BringitBadger]

War criminal…period

[@berserk.7070]

BEADY EYES

[@eliw.1197]

I've watched this from the start to end, and this doesn't convince me.

[@walterkronkitesleftshoe6684]

Don't worry, we won't lose any sleep.

[@paulcarpenter885]

Oh no Anyway

[@West_Coast_Gang]

Dresden was a major railway center, they relied on their railways.

[@tk-6967]

@@West_Coast_Gang no it wasn't. The railway centre wasn't extremely important at all, in fact it was the only thing that was important in the city militarily, and besides Harris said he was specifically targeting the population centres

[@2ndcomingofFritz]

@@tk-6967 according to a USAF report in 1945 Dresden was manufacturing poison gas supplying the holocaust, and an American POW in Dresden said “I saw with my own eyes it was an armed camp” (interview from the telegraph) which makes me believe it wasn’t as innocent as people say it was, and according to international law the nation that first committed a crime is held accountable for all war crimes.

[@helvisea]

It is amazing how this individual Harris is still applauded in this comment section. Primarely people which obviously have a very twisted or misinformed view on the historical events. Take this as a comment coming from someone from a country which also had to defend its borders against the aggressors from the third Reich. The ethic of Mr Black (interviewed) however remains at the level of the old testament. He didn‘t get any further.

[@tk-5268]

He's the BOMB

[@germaniatv1870]

@Exodus What is a Holocaust in the Old Testament? And when does fire drop from the sky? What Empire is regarded as the 1.000 Year Christian Empire? Exodus, how much iq for the day? 0,5kbits?

[@Wilhelm322]

Exactly on point. The people who even try to defend Arthur Bomber Harris actions might just as well defend Stalin’s or Hitlers Actions. All of those committed horrific atrocities and crimes yet Arthur Harris is still praised by some and for what? Killing Hundreds of Thousands of Innocent German Civilians? Destroying Centuries of German Heritage and Architecture? It sickens me to see people trying to defend such a Monster.

[@cassetteboost]

Arthur "Burner of the Werner" Harris

[@lawomega1]

Germanic to the core !

[@bigchunk1]

TLDR: "They're monsters so we get to be monsters too."

[@paulcarpenter885]

Bigchunk1: "I've no idea what ww2 was like and don't remotely understand logistics or strategies"

[@juno_the8774]

@@paulcarpenter885Harris murdered civilians and bombed one of the least military-significant cities in Deutschland

[@Wilhelm322]

@@juno_the8774 Indeed and tragically he was never held accountable for his Crimes.

[@kabir4990]

And this shows that the Allies were no better and trampled on international law.

[@seesmann638]

​@@paulcarpenter885 Bomber Harris... A Logistical "The aim of the Combined Bomber Offensive…should be unambiguously stated as the destruction of German cities, the killing of German workers, and the disruption of civilised life in Germany." Genius

[@markwilliams8369]

“Bombing alone can never win a war” - shall we ask the Japanese about that?

[@MarkHarrison733]

Japan surrendered due to the USSR.

[@stewartellinson8846]

This "hero or villain" narrative isn't really helpful and it's the sort of thing that KZbin loves but historians hate. Harris came out of a particular school of thought about strategic bombing that was current in the interwar period and he attempted to put it into practice. it's clear that the bombing did devastate the German war economy and the dehousing strategy did reduce their industrial capacity further but it was wasteful of resources in the long run. In the medium term, before D day it was what was available and did serve some purpose but the late war attacks (post summer 1944, roughly) were of limited effectiveness and bombing would have been better carried out for tactical goals. As such, Harris isn't a hero or a villain, he's a person who carried out a policy which had some successes and failures but, ultimately, did not fully succeed as it was originally envisaged - the bomber did not always get through although it did get through to some extent and did damage German production capacity although then failed to deal with things like the oil and transport campaigns as early or as thoroughly as would have been hoped. I think it's correct to identify fixations in the policy and it's important not to be either a critic or a fan of Harris, but to understand what happened in it's full context.

[@gordonlobaugh5862]

War hero for sure!!

[@francoisoba3192]

War criminal for sure

[@Wilhelm322]

Mass Murderer for Sure!

[@sneedfeedandseed2410]

based.

[@AnthonyBrown12324]

Berlin campaign was a disaster. And achieved very little for the heavy losses

[@chriswebb1148]

albert speer didnt think so

[@AnthonyBrown12324]

@@chriswebb1148 Speer said many things to ingratiate himself with the Western allies it worked he survived and prospered after leaving prison . Raiding Berlin occasionally would have been Ok but constantly doing it allowed the Germans to build defence and became predictable.

[@OleLeik]

Ruthless and savage as the Harris fellow might have been, he did not violate any of the relevant international conventions and laws at war at place at the time. Thus he wasn't and isn't a war criminal by definition. Its really as simple as that. In hindsight his obsession with bombing city centers might not have been cost efficent, but thats another matter

[@kamapublishing9949]

Nope, criminal, all day long...

[@olekcholewa8171]

Cry Nutzee

[@mickrendell7266]

Bollocks

[@erich2432]

What's this fuss all about? If Brits want to celebrate Arthur and Bomber crew, let them be. It's their internal issue. Don't drag other nations into it. They can celebrate and honour whoever they want. Germany lost, Britain won. So, I guess it's the tradition of victors to celebrate what they did in the war. Nobody cares to be honest. Crying won't bring the dead back. Besides, I have hardly seen any German pointing out what the allies did.

[@ralphbernhard1757]

London chose Germany as a "default enemy" as a result of Germany's power and economy. They surrounded Germany with "useful temporary friends" they made political/imperial concessions to. At this early stage (Wilhelmine Germany), all attempts were propagandized as a "rule the world"-conspiracy. See the longer comment for clarification.

[@erich2432]

@@ralphbernhard1757 Could've avoided the war and signed for a peace treaty and maintained the influence as a seperate power keeping the Empire. Germany's interests lied in the Eastern Europe. Though they would settle the score with France for Versailles and WW1. Then again, less French died in WW2 than in WW1. Strategically, Britain provides nothing significant to Germany. It would only bring the Americans sooner. Both Germany and Britain used to import stuff like raw materials, food grains etc. Germans would've only wasted resources, war materials and men in a campaign over Britain. Both France and Britain's interests lied in its overseas colonies ( Africa and Asia). Germans would've spared them anyway since their prime objective was the SU. Britain orchestrated the coup of 1941 in Yugoslavia which led to the bloodshed in Yugoslavia followed by communist rule under Tito for nearly 4 decades. Germans only wanted a free passage in Yugoslavia to Soviet heartland which was their prime objective.

[@MrDavidht]

@@erich2432 Germans aim was mass murder of non-arians.

[@adastra5469]

He was severely criticised back then, only the newer generations who lack morals defend him

[@seanpendulum5121]

The Conference for Safeguarding Non-Jewish Interests, the first international anti-Semitic conference, convened in Dresden, Germany on this date in 1882. Any thoughts....?

[@psychedeliccarrie5921]

Arthur Harris did nothing wrong.

[@francoisoba3192]

He did. He is a war criminal. A military who targets and kills civilians is a war criminal

[@js1423]

What about his victims and justice for them?

[@psychedeliccarrie5921]

@@js1423 What about the 11 million Europeans, including 6 million Jews, who were exterminated by a Fascist regime the German public enabled? What about the 40,000+ British people murdered in terror bombings? Hitler poked the tiger and in return got his own people pacified.

[@michaelbrown-ub6jr]

war hero

[@monoecumsemper]

Correct: a successful hero, not a tragic and unsuccessful one. Many wise-guys or losers envy him for that.

[@Wilhelm322]

@@monoecumsemper he was incredibly successful at killing hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians

[@Vfl666]

@@Wilhelm322 Innocent? yeah right lol

[@vercot7000]

@@Wilhelm322 > innocent lmfao

[@rezo6212]

Childrens ?@@Vfl666

[@disposabull]

Who on earth is the virtue signalling interviewer? SMH.

[@wolfgangkramm4694]

Bomber Harris was a war criminal

[@speckledjim_]

...and would have been hanged as a war criminal if he was on the losing side

[@MrDavidht]

@@wolfgangkramm4694 Germans where.

[@MrDavidht]

@@speckledjim_ by a nation of war criminals.

[@ralphbernhard1757]

At around 9.00 minutes "Only a minority viewed it as contentious." A straight out lie The true extent of the "Air Policing" campaigns carried out all over the Empire, against people who wanted self-determination and freedom from outside rule, were kept a *secret* from the public and even own members of parliament. Therefore saying "only a minority" disappoved is the typical misdirection and misinformation of the apologist. People didn't know, and therefore didn't have a clear picture.

[@walterkronkitesleftshoe6684]

Must have got the idea from the Germans bombing Liege in August 1914.

[@ralphbernhard1757]

Nobody "invented" the concept of waging war on civilians. It only morphed as times (technology) changed the weapons.

[@walterkronkitesleftshoe6684]

@@ralphbernhard1757 I agree, so why the sudden insistance from 1942 that the British alone were "war criminals" if its being going on since time immemorial?

[@rockyblacksmith]

Even if it were true (and it presumably was within the military), what kind of an argument is that? Only a minority of Germans opposed the Holocaust, and yet we rightfully condemn everyone involved with it.

[@cisarovnajosefina4525]

Proof?

[@nowhere529]

Soldiers fight Military enemies, Terrorist target civilians.

[@tiprunner]

One word: Dresden

[@kabir4990]

Yes.... Köln 13.000 Pforzheim 17.000, Dresden 25.000, Berlin 35.000, Hamburg about 40.000,

[@atheistyoda8915]

Three words: England, Warsaw, Rotterdam. They sowed the wind, and reaped the whirlwind.

[@tiprunner]

@@atheistyoda8915 with that form of revenge logic, it would have been allright for the allied to have made concentration camps with gas chambers for the germans.

[@tiprunner]

@@JamesL42 nice try troll

[@JamesL42]

@@tiprunner Not trolling. Anne Frank gets gassed? Frankfurt gets glassed!

[@vasiliignatov5568]

Wow no, that man is a war criminal

[@julioflorescertifiedtherap1425]

Lmao no

[@kabir4990]

​@@julioflorescertifiedtherap1425Targeting and killing civilians is a war crime. Harris is a war criminal because he has completely violated international law.

[@mikemyers8064]

👍🏻🇬🇧

[@celestialteapot309]

ln Manchester we have a new statue of Friedrich Engels, a true hero of the working class.

[@West_Coast_Gang]

Would be better as a Harris statue

[@marseldagistani1989]

@@West_Coast_Gang Agree and he Harris ought to be called Arthur ''Aerial cremation of the Aryan nation'' Harris

[@raydematio7585]

Communism killed at least 100,000,000. Harris was a hero.

[@celestialteapot309]

@@raydematio7585 Try to read more, starting with the Communist Manifesto?

[@germaniatv1870]

@@raydematio7585 So why did Harris not bomb the Soviets?

[@kevinoleary9361]

History is written by victors

[@malikialgeriankabyleswag4200]

Hitler refrained from Gas attacking civilians while Churchill gas bombed German civillians.. Fact

[@kevinoleary9361]

@@malikialgeriankabyleswag4200 👍👍👍👍

[@jozefward8433]

@@malikialgeriankabyleswag4200 Haha! Ain't war hell?

[@elkpaz560]

Not only otherwise the narratives of Irish oppression or the poor German people of Dresden would not be so dominant in our culture. Defeat can be a potent in the long term.

[@adamwaugh3373]

Not so. Eg. Even today in the West we read the memoirs of convicted war criminals and take them at face value eg. Von Manstein, whilst neglecting records of the soviet victors

[@Mohamed_amin120]

This guy needs to hop off harris lol

[@sleinnesnej]

Kriminel - Remember Dresden !

[@West_Coast_Gang]

Hero - remember Dresden was a major rail center that shipped thousands of tank to the front!

[@marseldagistani1989]

"What are those skeletons in that closet over at Poland? "

[@LIETUVIS10STUDIO1]

Dresden was a mass of munition warehouses, marshalling yards and military camps. It is now none of these things.

[@2ndcomingofFritz]

Hero- Dresden produced toxic gas for the holocaust.

[@johngray8606]

Criminal!!! Remember London, Coventry, and others before pointing the finger.

[@mrnobodytheuser2950]

Defence of incinerating civilians, based!

[@bikinisforever4163]

200,000 lives lost in 24 hours. Worst yet, he deliberately timed the attacks to get rid of the emergency heroes who were doing their job of saving lives. One of the biggest war criminals in human history.

[@summerbankboy]

Hitler started it so thats what happens just like Putin is doing now if Ukraine were to bomb Moscow tonight and kill 200.000 people that would be Putins fault and not Zelenskys

[@edselsevilla5874]

Goebbels twisted the numbers 25,000 died not 200,000

[@expertbrody9914]

Do not disrespect the kraut krisper

[@marseldagistani1989]

Is your source Goebles and Speer?

[@Invicta556]

More were killed in the Hamburg raid not Dresden one.

[@getevennow]

Doctrine of Necessity 666

[@ralphbernhard1757]

The only true "winner" of WW2 was The American Century. Why? They had the geographical advantage. Also, the American Centrury didn't like the European empires, and proclaimed themselves to be "better people". Sound familiar? *Anyway...they also had an eye on juicy Brutish Impure's markets...* LOL. Talk about "ulterior motives"..

[@erich2432]

Brits often celebrate bombings of Dresden, Cologne etc. Not officially, but on social media, in football games, stadiums etc. Lol! The anti-German sentiments often come from the Brits. Someone said it right, Germany's enemy isn't Russia, but the "Europeans" themselves. What's the use of starting the Cold War when Brits happily bombed Germany in 1945 which was asked by Soviet Union? The whole Cold War was a comedy show. Brexiteers are the most anti-German folks I have ever seen. Not even Russians hate Germany that much.

[@MrDavidht]

Remind just who invaded Poland, France and then turned on the USSR.

[@MrDavidht]

@@erich2432 If Germans don't hate Russia why did Germany break the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

[@ottomocus8722]

that's right! USA USA USA USA. thank god the brits put 25000 germans through the food processor in dresden!!

[@erich2432]

@@ottomocus8722 And was literally begging for $10 billion after the war, while got $4 billion in the end. Lol! Germany ended up becoming the leader of EU and strongest economy in Europe anyway. In fact, there are still over 60 million "Aryans" in Germany.

[@getevennow]

Mass murder ?

[@richardvolbrecht2935]

TALK TO GERMAN historians Quit talking with BRITISH historians

[@MrDavidht]

Why, will they pretend the Holocaust never happened?

[@West_Coast_Gang]

“Ja we had a railway center zhere” “Ja there were zeveral facktories”

[@marseldagistani1989]

German historians will quote Goebles prop

[@francoisoba3192]

@@marseldagistani1989 stop talking thrash

[@germaniatv1870]

@@MrDavidht In other means, the Bombing of Dresden was a Holocaust in itself. The British and the USA called the bombing of Dresden "The Holocaust of Dresden" in their own Papers. Now if we look into the old testament, what is a Holocaust?

[@getevennow]

Horrible

[@fredsavage2834]

Jeremy Black comes across as abrasive and arrogant, not to mention intellectually and morally stunted. It is imbecilic to dismiss the moral question as 'not helpful' or 'irrelevant'. He is clearly incapable of considering viewpoints which conflict with his assumptions. The Telegraph should have interviewed a more nuanced and philosophical mind but then I suppose Black's reductive diatribe chimes with the jingoism of their chauvinistic readership.

[@peterhallenbach1871]

Just a War Criminal.