Tesla 4680 Battery Chemistry Changes REVEALED!

A recent Tesla 4680 battery cell teardown revealed some cathode and anode chemistry changes from the 1st gen cells and in addition, it appears like Tesla will be buying electrodes from LG energy solutions and using those to assemble batteries as they work to lower the cost and increase production of their Cybercells.
James Ma 4680 Teardown: x.com/Jamesma1109/status/1800...
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** All video and pictures are used with permission or in accordance with the copyright owner's stated policies and use allowance, or applicable fair use laws. **
Image & Video Clip Sources:
1. Tesla video clips/images used in the video courtesy of Tesla, Inc. (where noted in the video).
Data Sources:
www.hankyung.com/article/2024...
x.com/Jamesma1109/status/1800...
Gen 1 4680 Teardown: iopscience.iop.org/article/10...
eepower.com/news/lg-chem-to-b...
NOTE: The content found in this video should NOT be regarded as financial advice. I am not a financial advisor, and this is NOT in any way a recommendation or offer to buy or sell securities. While the information in this video is believed to be accurate at the time of recording, no guarantees are being made about the accuracy of the information presented in the video. As of the recording of this video, I am NOT invested in Tesla stock or securities, nor any other company mentioned in this video.

[@777Outrigger]

Sandy Munro just said the 4680 battery in his CT teardown had a dry cathode. Production for dry cathode is probably just ramping up, but until ramped up, they're buying wet cathodes from LG.

[@NickChamnong1]

But doesn’t that means they have enough for CT ramp already? Where can i see video that Munro said this?

[@zwillx3953]

LG wet cathodes could be for Semi. Same timeframe and scale, high density..

[@777Outrigger]

@@zwillx3953 True. No one knows for sure.

[@gareth5000]

Play the "that being said" drinking game. Hic

[@RagnarinVa]

Once Tesla gets their mass production ramp up of their 4680 format - they can modify chemistry as they want without having to change up the battery cell manufacturing

[@user-lo4er8wy9l]

Great info. If Tesla needs to pivot part of the 4680 design for a few years to work out the internal changes, then that is fine. We can't expect everything to work out right away. Tesla has battery sourcing from Panasonic, LG, CATL, and BYD, so Tesla is fine for now.

[@roger_is_red]

4 billion dollar order from LG seems high to me.

[@Sn0wZer0]

The order size doesn't cover Tesla's total production, but it sure matches nicely with the Cybertruck ramp-up and expected production. This way gen2 can emphasize production, and avoid stalling CT waiting for gen3. R&D can continue on gen3 to eventually open up Model 3/Y/Semi/etc.

[@RagnarinVa]

Tesla is walking their internal supply chain from the end product back. Eventually they will make their cathodes in house.

[@Wirmish]

Tesla is about to start his battery cathode factory on his Texas site.

[@georgeginsburg545]

With all the advances in battery technology coming from companies like CATL and others, I think Tesla will increasingly rely on third-party batteries and battery components.

[@rogerstarkey5390]

IF other car makers return (next year?) cell prices will tise. Meanwhile Tesla is reducing 4680 cost. . Those lines will ctoss at some point

[@AudiTTQuattro2003]

​@@rogerstarkey5390...or battery manufacturers win. Elon was right in wanting battery tech in-house, but that was more wishful hype than actual fact even back then. Now the best battery tech is available to any company willing to pay for it.

[@blueskyresearch6701]

I wonder if some of the issue is with the jelly roll format are they having issues with the convex (cathode) or issue in the inner part of the roll because of how tightly it's wound perhaps a catl m3p style of battery is the solution to the dry cathode issue but that would take an entirely new line.

[@mike_w-tw6jd]

What does using LG materials do to tax credit eligibility?

[@SkepticalCaveman]

LG is from South Korea, no problems.

[@RagnarinVa]

They also make their products here as well.

[@-whackd]

The batteries will be produced in the US.

[@mirkonaumann1417]

The patent picture at the beginning shows left upper and right lower side of the Gen 1 4680 not upper Gen 1 + upper Gen 2. Watch carefully and look at Munroes latest CyberBeast 4680 video. Then you'll understand.

[@Urgelt]

Elon expects 4680 costs to fall to parity or better with its battery cell suppliers by end of 2024. That would be pretty significant if Tesla can pull it off. Battery cell costs have been plummeting due to the pull-back of legacy auto from their BEV production plans. He's projecting a lot of progress for 4680. That pull-back by legacy auto was motivated by falling sales in China, where indigenous overcapacity has produced a BEV price war, and highly-lucrative incentives for hybrids in the US; and falling BEV incentives in Europe. Those are all transient trends. I think Elon has taken a longer view and still pursues an aggressive BEV ramp longer-term, with an even more aggressive ramp in energy storage products sucking up any battery production excesses which might appear due to transient BEV trending. Diversifying supply chains is a good idea, more flexibility all around.

[@tommckinney1489]

What effect will this have on overall kWh of the battery? It'd be nice if you could include a comparison of energy density of the "new" battery vs the current one.

[@user-hw8go5gl6t]

Energy density：242.7Wh/kg (Up 6% then Gen1) Capacity density(Wh/L)：627Wh/L (Up 2.5 then Gen1) Internal resistance(mΩ)：2.6 (Gen1 is 3)

[@drakemia4079]

They just keep getting better all the time it is amazing. But our liquid fuels are way better after a 125 years of improving them it is a big win going forward for clean renewables energy.

[@-whackd]

How have we been improving gasoline, other than making sure we don't poison ourselves by adding lead to it?

[@drakemia4079]

@@-whackd you hit it on the head we took the lead out of gasoline it is unleaded now .

[@sonovabeach]

How are our liquid fuels considered renewable when it's drilled out of the ground? Don't bother with the ethanol additive because it doesn't actually help emissions. It reduces mileage in the name of burning clean. Well if you have to fill up more often burning corn gas, how is that better? Burning corn gas emits more emissions than without, over each mile. Same with all the diesel emissions control. MPG on modern diesels is significantly less than prior to all the DPF, etc. If you're burning more fuel per mile, you're emitting more pollution per mile. Yeah your tail pipe smells better but more fuel is consumed.

[@Beatles4Sale.]

Panasonic and LG energy will each start making 4680 batteries in different factories for Tesla starting around August 2024. LG manufacturing will be in South Korea.

[@yitzhakkhabinsky4583]

Any news about CATL so called condensed batteries? One year later since they were announced...

[@CDKladis]

I heard they are going in some Chinese car and Tesla is getting ready to put them in the model Y very soon

[@tooltalk]

vaporware. most weekly battery tech announcements are fake news, promoted by the likes of e_viking. it on average takes 2-3 years to validate/certify new battery tech; then another 2-3 year to mass-manufacture. and that's if and only if it's a legit tech. most battery tech in use today were developed 20-25 years ago with incremental improvement over time.

[@JohnSanders1091]

I’m wondering if the change in the new model 3 long range eligibility for the ev tax credit is due to Tesla buying excess battery materials from LG. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the 2170 cells were using Chinese supplied materials in those cars that caused it to lose the credit at the beginning of this year.

[@doolittlegeorge]

*"so i said to them COPPER! COPPER is the difference between me and all the others."*

[@rogerfroud300]

I think you mean 'lack of a DRY processed cathode'

[@jimdetry9420]

Isn't Tesla building a cathode production building in Texas? It looks close to finished.

[@Bemx2k]

When We can expect first mass production of Solid State batteries wit h energy density above 350Wh/kg ?

[@larryc1616]

SS energy density is 2x that around 700wh/kg. Semi-SS is about 350

[@rogerstarkey5390]

Guessing

[@w0ttheh3ll]

NCMA 82:11:5:3 seems to be more cobalt than NMC 8:1:1, not less

[@tooltalk]

Just to be fair, NCM811 is not always mixed to 80%, 10%, 10% exact ratio.

[@Jonathan-ru9zl]

Improving battery specs and integrate them inside products seem to be an extremely difficult endeavor

[@Gunter_Custom]

You think ? 😂

[@Jonathan-ru9zl]

@@Gunter_Custom Considering the number of "battery breakthroughs" we see once in a while it is not trivial at all..

[@tooltalk]

@@Jonathan-ru9zl I'm sick of all those weekly fake battery breakthroughs.. batteries have to be validated/certified by OEMs (2-3 years), then mass-produced before they ever get to see the light of day (another 2-3 years) -- ie, 5-6 years. Most new breakthroughs won't make it in reality.

[@Gunter_Custom]

I was being sarcastic ...there is a breakthrough like everyday and they never come to production .. Everyone and their grandma knows this .....😂

[@drakemia4079]

Wave power and wind power and solar power never goes away so it is a very good thing for all people in the world most people have solar or wind or wave energy.

[@audience2]

Wave energy? That is not widely deployed at all.

[@Matzes]

Wave energy is dumb

[@drakemia4079]

@@Matzes ok to you maybe ,but it may compete in America or be under a dictatorship that decides everything under one man who says he can do anything he wants.

[@allenaxp6259]

How did the M3 LR suddenly qualify for the $7500 Credit? Did they change the batteries? Please someone answer this question! So why no $7500 Tax credit until this week for the M3 LR? My order that I placed for the M3 LR in April I was told no tax credit was available, Then a week before delivery of June 25 I received the tax credit. Also what batteries are in the M3 LR now?

[@4literv6]

4680s ramping up, model Y slightly down in the us for 2024 and powerwall 3 is lfp along with all megapacks. Frees up 2170s for returning some model 3s to tax credit eligibility.

[@Gig0Surf]

One potential explanation is that in May the US Treasury gave automakers some additional flexibility on hard to source battery minerals until 2027. Troy Teslike speculated this could enable the tax credit for the Model 3 LR AWD using LG 2170s imported from South Korea [which purportedly contain some materials from China]. That speculation was from May 3rd, I haven't attempted to follow-up or verify this, including where LG cells are being allocated [off the top of my head I thought those were going into EU vehicles], but it seems plausible.

[@allenaxp6259]

@@Gig0Surf Thanks for the reply. Sounds like the best answer so far !

[@4literv6]

@@Gig0Surf well said! I had forgotten SK was one of the first to do a free trade agreement with U.S. over ev battery materials when offered.

[@Techridr]

I think the 4680 is too little too late. They certainly didn't reach their objectives with it although I have my fingers crossed. If nothing else, the issue I see with them is the charging curve is horrible. I fear it's because it's hard to cool the core of each cell because of size. Shenxing PLUS by CATL I feel will be a game changer on many levels. 1.5 million mile battery, hyper-fast charging @ 372 miles (600 km) in 10 minutes, less problematic in cold weather, LFP based and energy dense to compete with NMC. I don't think 4680 will every reach those specs or ever return to the Model Y, but as we all know, we need locally sourced batteries. Ford got the jump on a CATL factory in Michigan. Let's see if the Texas factory happens. All the time waiting for the 4680 to amaze just isn't happening. Sadly. If you ask me, it's all about the charging speed/curve.

[@MrMR-hp6ed]

Tesla is licensing CATL tech for their own 4680s.

[@user-tm2mt5ms5o]

​@@MrMR-hp6edThis is not true.

[@user-tm2mt5ms5o]

The charging curve is being improved with software updates. You drawing conclusions at the beginning of the game, there are more innings to play.

[@brettmciver432]

​@@user-tm2mt5ms5o I agree they were very cautious at the beginning of the 2170s as well!

[@Matzes]

If nothing else, 4680 will give them diversified battery sources with stable pricing on a product that is roughly equal to industry averages already. And who says they can't still improve on it

[@CTimmerman]

Parents should not let their children steal cobalt near large mechanized mines.

[@edwardlinne2156]

Wow that disclaimer is so lame. Why dontv you i vest in Tesla?

[@trellofello7473]

What are your thoughts on the new smaller (Model 2) Tesla rumoured to be released in 2025/26? Is it realistic, or just wishful thinking?

[@kurtlowder3276]

for 7 years we have been talking about a 25,000 model 2. but we have had seven years of inflation. Tesla has extra production space on its model 3 and model y lines, because elon musk decided to be the most politcal mother fucker ever. like he bought twitter so he could share political opinions that would piss everyone off across the entire spectrum. I am not saying his opinions are right or wrong, just you should not weigh into poltics publicly when your face is the franchise. Tesla is the elon brand and elon killed it by making political statements when like 60% of the country is locked in a bitter, tribal political divide caused by social media. so now tesla cannot sell enough model 3 and model Ys to fund the model 2at 25,000 and simultaneously develop FSD/robots/AI. Additionaly, the horrificly slow and cumbersome cybertruck ramp makes a model 2 even harder. My guess based upon elon musk statements, we will get model 2.5. a smaller version of the model Y. that uses many of the same parts. it will look very similar. it will be 33-50K. at first, they will sell the 50K version which will have really nice range like 400+, better interior, and it will go even faster. Eventually, it will get down to the 33k price. but with any luck tesla will have solved FSD and all teslas will go up in price. if they solve FSD you can bet your ass the cheapest tesla will be above 50K. probably wont solve FSD enough for regulators in USA though. it might be 10 times safer than a human but they will slow it down.

[@rogerstarkey5390]

Try... Model 3 body. 2 castings... Assembled AWAY from the body, then bolted to yhe body ("unboxed" method.... Time saver!) Components on the castings? Grn 3 systems 48v loom/ peripherals Steer by wire Electric brakes(?) ALL design for high mass production. . Add 1 motor, regeared for economy (0-60 ±6.9 seconds, just "because") Allowing a smaller/ chealer pack (-10%?) . Result? Sub 30k Model 3 "economy". . "Cheaper vehicle using exusting lines and elements of next gen (unboxed) systems" . Note he's been concerned about recession for some time. What do you do pre-recession? (IF you're proactive!) Reduce the wage bill. Sell a cheaper product (while still making a good profit) . How about announced in August, production Q4-Q1? . When they solve FSD? Or rather BEFORE they do. . They take the Compact/ Cab (Same vehicle) They LEASE the Compact.... For use as a driven cab, with FSD in "final test version" . The moment its approved, they feature delete the "driver control module", change firmware and produce CyberCABs

[@AudiTTQuattro2003]

​@@kurtlowder3276...betting on FSD is a long, highly speculative play at this point. It just ran into another parked police cruiser w/ flashing lights. FSD is amazing but it is still a "dumb machine" that doesn't know what it doesn't know. It can work perfectly for thousands of miles, then decide to do something so stupid because it can't reason out the simplest edge case.

[@eb1888.]

CATL is doing a better job of moving battery development forward. The Shenxing battery is an lfp chemistry battery with faster 4C charging and good energy density.

[@RagnarinVa]

LFP is interesting but not that “advanced” - there are other LFP manufacturers including ONE. Those are good for large battery storage but more energy density is required for auto and large trucks like semis. Tesla is smart to keep internal battery development.

[@Techridr]

@@RagnarinVa You're talking about current LFP batteries. CATLs Shenxing PLUS is a different story entirely.

[@eb1888.]

@@RagnarinVa kzbin.info/www/bejne/aaCbfneXprJjiLc Shenxing has 205 Wh/kg and charges at 4c. 600km in 10 minutes. 360 miles. No cold temp reduction in power. The Condensed battery has 500 Wh/kg. kzbin.info/www/bejne/f2K7nn6mh6uNmdE

[@RagnarinVa]

@@Techridr - yes i read the claims none of them validated or seen in the market in use. Again if it’s LFP and a Chemistry hack other producers can reverse engineer .

[@rogerstarkey5390]

CATL Is doing a DIFFERENT job... (Anyway, they should be "better" because "its what they do")

[@mrknesiah]

Silicon?

[@tooltalk]

10% silicon anode will definitely become more common as the price has declined by 2/3 recently. will still have to wait til late 2025/2026.

[@George_Shonia]

4680 should have at least 500wh/kg energy density.

[@rogerstarkey5390]

Long term plan/ projection

[@AudiTTQuattro2003]

​@@rogerstarkey5390...or optimistic wish.

[@4literv6]

No chance without switching to semi solid state cells or full solid state cells to achieve that energy density. Even we lion in production semi solid state cells nio is using for the et7 150kwh packs are only around 320-340wh/kg. Catl claims their condensed matter semi solid state cells will approach 500 wh/kg so do others. But NOTHING is in series production atm.

[@eddiegardner8232]

What makes more sense, if they can get CATL to build a US or Mexican battery factory near the border, is to use CATL's superior battery tech to power the next generation of Teslas. It will be hard to meet, much less improve upon, the performance of the new CATL batteries with basic Li-ion tech like they are using now. Tesla needs to put its efforts into expanding and updating their cars and continuing to improve their car manufacturing tech, and leave battery chemistry to the companies making the most progress, and harvest the benefits of their expenses after they go into mass production.

[@Gunter_Custom]

Why can't they do both. Tesla has the resources the money and the engineering. 😂😂😂

[@tooltalk]

CATL makes mostly low-end LFP batteries, especially for exports CATL's NMC is more or less stuck with NCM811 while its competitors have already moved on to next-gen NCM or NMC9.

[@eddiegardner8232]

CATLs latest LiFePhosphate technology is the cost effective next generation of EV batteries, but to get the benefit of the US tax credit, they will have to be made in North America, so Tesla needs CATL to build a factory here.

[@tooltalk]

@@eddiegardner8232 First, whatever comes out of their lab today must be validated/certified -- and I don't mean self-validation -- before they ever get to see the light of day and mass-produced to be commodified -- which mean years from now. It still doesn't change the fact that they are low-end batteries.

[@eddiegardner8232]

@@tooltalk They are already going into some Chinese production models. And the reported performance and temperature range doesn’t sound very “low end” to me. Well above some of the earlier batteries such as the BYD blade. CATL knows what they are doing; they don’t go down dead end roads, and Tesla is a large customer of them in China, so they are undoubtedly testing these right now in preparation for the Model Y Juniper update.

[@zaldam]

You really talk a lot. But it is mostly ballast. Or some would say fluff. I could not make myself last to the end of the video.

[@muskepticsometimes9133]

CATL has 100x more experience, volume R n D vs 4680 effort.

[@tooltalk]

CATL makes cheap batteries. BYD makes bettery quality LFPs; LG, Samsung, SK, Panasonic better high-nickel batteries.

[@Truecolors326]

10% lol what a Joke

[@Gunter_Custom]

And what have you been able to improve over 10%... 😂😂

[@jezza6575]

“Cybertruck cells” not as you say cybercells.

[@sendbnes]

sadly tesla is buying Chinese batteries

[@larryc1616]

They're the best

[@rogerstarkey5390]

Tesla is buying the best value batteries (at the moment) AND cementing their reputation as the "Go to, reliable customer" for the supplers. Next time Tesla negotiates, who's getting the best deal on "next gen" cells?

[@AudiTTQuattro2003]

​@@rogerstarkey5390...what happened to "vertical integration" as a competitive edge? Of coarse it was hype even then, but the cult bought it as fact when Elon came out with it. Wanting something to be true and it actually happening are two different things.

[@Gunter_Custom]

​@@AudiTTQuattro2003vertical integration has been around for centuries .. and It does work .. but it's execution has to be managed well.😂

[@tooltalk]

Tesla's mid/high EVs use Japanese/Korean batteries (high-nickel batteries). Chinese LFP batteries are for entry-level, low-range RWD (formerly Standard Range) only.

[@drakemia4079]

Plenty of different kinds of energy is a win for all Americans. Having no energy or way to expensive energy like win liquid energy goes up for no reason we have options.

[@randywhelchel4674]

I ONLY car if it makes it go farther

[@vernepavreal7296]

no ethical considerations?

[@-whackd]

Oh you don't care about price at all? Ok

[@randywhelchel4674]

@@vernepavreal7296 none

[@Tuano-vq1jw]

Can you just talk to the point:((, too long guessing and repetition in the beginning

[@dpie4859]

4680 is a failure!

[@user-tm2mt5ms5o]

Making 50 millions of something is not a failure.

[@marcogpt]

It's not a failure, it's an ongoing engineering challenge. It will be solved.

[@dpie4859]

@@user-tm2mt5ms5o You are clearly not aware of CATLs two new batteries. They CRUSH the 4680 in all relevant aspects such as charging speed, energy density, cost etc.

[@user-tm2mt5ms5o]

@dpie4859 You obviously don't know what Tesla is aiming for with 4680, or perhaps you do. Then, you should know that when they crack the code of DBE, there are in the league of their own. Also, Tesla is battery agnostic, and they are not trying to replace their suppliers. In addition, they are also working with CATL on improving battery performance. You are wrong, 4680 is not dead.

[@AudiTTQuattro2003]

​@@user-tm2mt5ms5o...maybe not dead, but totally over hyped too early.

[@RagnarinVa]

Once Tesla gets their mass production ramp up of their 4680 format - they can modify chemistry as they want without having to change up the battery cell manufacturing

[@rogerstarkey5390]

Exactly.

[@TheLobo91]

The format IS the problem. These small round cells lead to more complicated battery packs. Square cells are far easier to design, manufacture, and repair. China LFP square cells are 5 years ahead of everyone else. 4680 cells are worthless. Move on to larger cells and the problems can easily be fixed. Next Gen LFP is a huge leap forward. Not 10 percent.

[@RagnarinVa]

@@TheLobo91 - The format has been successful for Tesla. 4680 is not a little cell and the cylindrical format has cooling capabilities and can be manufactured faster than prismatic cells. Prismatic cells are not easier to manufacture in volume.