Tesla's Lithium Clay Patent Application // Selective Extraction

[@williamwellborn]

The key here is “freedom to operate”, this is why it doesn’t matter so much if the patent is granted or not. Having the patent granted would allow Tesla to keep others from using this process, ie to prevent competition, but for Tesla the more important thing would be someone else trying to prevent Tesla from using the technology. In fact, I would imagine Tesla would welcome others using the technology as this would help to increase the lithium supply and lower the cost which I believe is Tesla’s main goal. So even if the patent were granted, I expect Tesla would be willing to license, probable for free. There are obvious synergies with the Boring company as well.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Great insights!

[@michaelthomas7898]

I would hope they allow free usage, as the guy who invented the lithium battery in the first place did exactly that and it help make Musk a rich man.

[@thesilentone4024]

Ya 1 problem there's a rare endangered plant that can live in that soil and only that soil. Its going to be an open pit mine and well what are they going to do with the plants moving them won't help and will probably kill them they got 50 to 100 foot roots.

[@bighands69]

So what Tesla puts all the money in, takes the risks and then just allows their ideas out there to help the world in some loft notion.

[@michaelthomas7898]

@@bighands69 Musk didn't invent the lithium battery but has made a lot of money off of the guy who did. Read up on John Goodenought he put his patent out there for free to better the world.

[@Steve-rb8eh]

Excellent presentation. Very thorough coverage. I am a licensed engineer with extensive experience in chemical engineering and process design. You hit 99% of the important criteria (of the process steps you included.) This is by far the best KZbin video I have watched. You did not waste my time. Thank you so much.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Sure thing man! Totally pisses me off when KZbinrs waste my time.

[@jlhjedi]

This is astounding on so many levels. Tesla will be providing itself its key chemical components at the lowest possible cost while other manufacturers will be competing for offtakes in peak markets. Thank you Jordan, exceptional work as usual! You spoil us! You're the best!

[@subthousandoaks]

10,000 views in 3 hours. Congratulations Jordan you are becoming the go-to expert but provides the highest quality non-biased information available. Thank you kindly keep up the great work and avoid that algorithm!

[@eidenneal]

I know nothing (I mean nothing) about any of this. I'm a software Engineer! Yet, by the time this video was done, felt I'd just had a 2 year crash course and was ready for more. Not only was the information excellent, the way it was presented left me at the edge of my seat wanting to know what comes next!! You truly have a gift! Very well done!

[@thelimitingfactor]

Thanks Neal 🤠🤜🤛

[@richchrono7693]

Exactly! And clear enunciation communicated at a moderately slow pace to allow people without advanced material physics degrees to be able to comprehend what's being communicated as you go. I follow many KZbin channels spending a wide variety of scientific disciplines, and of course everyone has their own narrator. And from all that I've seen, Jordan is right up at the top there with the best of them. Nerd! 🌛

[@raddaks2039]

What an absolute dream team of engineers. They came up with a totally new way of extracting lithium from clay that is more environmentally friendly and way cheaper to do. And they did it in only a couple of years. That's insane. It's taken us this long to figure out one tiny portion of what was revealed at battery day. Mind blown, dude. Thank you so much for taking the time to learn all this and explain it.

[@bodo_Te]

About patents, to answer Gordons question at the end of this video: If you file a patent, which is not yet (or never will) be granted, you as the inventor (and everyone else) are nevertheless free to use the ideas of this patents. However, as soon as the patent is granted, you as the inventor can charge everyone else (who is not the inventor ) for using your patent, even for the past ! Or you can not grant a patent license for others so others are not allowed to use the patents ideas. Source: I'm one of the "MP3" inventors. (You can find my name on several MPEG1 Layer 3 Audio Coding (MP3) and Advanced Audio Coding (AAC) Patents) Many kudos to Gordon for his incredible good work!

[@thelimitingfactor]

Ha! Sick man! Thanks for stopping by!

[@briansilver9652]

I have experience working with large ball mills in the cement industry. We used up to 4000 hp synchronous motors to drive the mills. The ball charge was I believe around 100 tons of Nickle Chromium balls ranging in size from 1/4" up to 3". Nothing subtle about a ball mill. They are a continuous process as raw material enters one end and goes through chambers with progressively smaller balls and comes out the consistency of flour on the other at a high rate. Look to the cement industry for a hundred years of experience with ball mills.

[@brettmciver432]

Just wondering what amount of "ball" contamination do you get in the cement? Ie flakes of the balls, corrosion etc. Wonder how much this would effect the lithium process mentioned in the video? ☕☕🍻🍻

[@briansilver9652]

@@brettmciver432 Good question. As an industrial electrician that was out of my scope. I do know the balls wear down and they have to dump the mills and sort the balls by size and add 3" balls regularily.

[@incognitotorpedo42]

@@brettmciver432 Most of the material worn off of the balls should remain in the solid phase and not get dissolved in the water. In order for the metal to get dissolved, it would have to be oxidized. The metals used in the balls form di- or tri-valent ions if they do manage to get dissolved, so they are chemically very different from the monovalent lithium. It wouldn't be difficult to separate them chemically, if they were there in sufficient quantity to worry about.

[@brettmciver432]

@@incognitotorpedo42 Thanks here have a beer or 2🍻🍻🍻🍻

[@patreekotime4578]

@@incognitotorpedo42 So the major consideration would likely be that contamination from the balls needs to be an environmentally acceptible additive to the waste clay so that it can be returned to the ground.

[@joesmackunstable]

Wow, the impurity efficiency is very impressive. Thanks for doing such a great job Jordan. Exciting times ahead!

[@lucywilliams9202]

Hello Jeff

[@OwnerOfOwn]

been suffering from anxiety that I just cannot get a handle on, your videos are just engaging enough to let my brain shut up for a bit. Thank you Jordan.

[@thelimitingfactor]

I have anxiety too!

[@OwnerOfOwn]

@@thelimitingfactor Thanks for sharing that man, it's been brutal. Respect for maintaining your professional career and still putting these out, gives me hope for being productive throughout the anxiety.

[@kstaxman2]

Tesla never ceases to amaze me. They simply see problems as challenges not obstructions.

[@brucebender5917]

Agreed. "There are no problems, only opportunities."

[@treva31]

Exactly. Even if this process turned out to be no good they would find a different solution.

[@MarkXHolland]

@@brucebender5917 'There are no mistakes, only happy accidents'. 😊

[@navithefairy]

The Limiting Factor: I've never seen a larger than bench scale planetary ball mill. Elon: Hold my beer..GIGA planetary ball mill incoming! Excellent video btw!

[@goingballisticmotion5455]

Tesla Groman three months later: I thought you said a Planetary scale ball mill, not a scale planetary ball mill.

[@thelimitingfactor]

🤣

[@thelimitingfactor]

Lol! Like Dune! Truly, the spice must flow.

[@thanes69]

Well, what does Tesla know about scaling machinery well beyond conventional uses? Other than using lithium batteries to power EVs, giga-casting, high-tensile carbon-fiber wrapping, and re-inventing HVAC? Huh…

[@peter.g6]

@@thanes69 Yeah, and SpaceX might know a thing or two about centrifugal forces.

[@christopherrubicam4474]

Fascinating. Good luck to competitors trying to catch up.

[@johnmqueripel2367]

It should be abundantly clear by now that the term 'competitor' has no relevance to Tesla.

[@Jethr001]

spies are everywhere! Research scientist are named in the patent

[@Chainyanker007]

Elon is concurrently moving across several strategic fronts, lithium mining, battery tech, global SC network, neural network,/Dojo/FSD, custom processors, utility scale battery storage, licensed utility, and assorted EV tech and superb engineering. Can other EV makers keep up, if not what happens to them in 10 years time?

[@throwinturtles]

Excellent video and communication style. I work in extraction of base metals and the only points I think you could add are: 1. Lower grade feed material and lower recovery will mean much larger volumes need to be processed, which can make remediation more difficult despite no high intensity leaching. 2. Milling large volumes can be very power intensive (though my knowledge is based on hard rock). Tesla may be very well placed to couple this with its own energy systems. These 2 points are by no means deal breakers, of course. 3. Finally on the implementation side, I wonder if this technology will be outsourced /handed to Piedmont Lithium (who have lithium supply agreements with Tesla in North America) or integrated to Tesla itself. Though this is speculation, and not why we watch your channel.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Great points!

[@Limpatome]

On the improvement by leaching I imagine it is related to the higher solubility of alkaline salts (Li, Na, K) compared to other species like Mg, Ca, Al, Si or Fe. Thus, leaching in water (assuming the water they use doesn't have any other "secret sauce") increases the amount of alkaline metals you get (that's probably why K also increases in the comparison). The good thing is that separating the Mg and Ca impurities is not that difficult and separating the other alkali metals is a process already known in other Li extraction methods. I do research in mechanochemistry (not exactly this kind, more like high pressure stuff) and it is amazing how much things can change by "simply" applying force. Hats off to the engineers that thought about this. Btw, I love your videos. There are researchers that don't research their topics as much as you do on this videos. It's impressive!

[@thelimitingfactor]

My pleasure, and thanks for the insights!

[@dougtruesdell9937]

Correct - the alkaline ions are most readily water soluble and don't require a stronger "acid" than just water. The other cations listed are less water soluble, but the acid moves the the equilibrium to the solution over the clay. By adjusting pH, an optimum balance of alkaline ion extraction versus impurity extraction can be found.

[@Finlaymacnab]

Tesla's engineering solutions remind me of aha moments that come to you in the shower when you're thinking of something else. I wonder if they installed showers in the lab or something.

[@thelimitingfactor]

🤣

[@patreekotime4578]

Rows of showers and bongs.

[@thegamingsociety7880]

My aha moments were always driving home from school/work.

[@toddmarshall7573]

And that being the case, what should an invention be worth? What if there was no such thing as a patent? Would the world be worse off if everything took on the Coca Cola (secrecy) model? Or the Open Source Model? In the olden days a working model had to be built. Then they patented plants and drawings had to be made. And today you typically sell your rights to patents to your employer...for a $1. Now really!

[@patreekotime4578]

@@toddmarshall7573 In practical use, patents often become an encumberance more than anything else. Some companies seek patents to prevent competitors from innovating by refusing to license them. Some companies seek patents for the purpose of licensing at high rates (patent trolling). So the reality becomes that the patent office is FILLED with frivolous patents designs to hedge even minor innovations, or as workaround to existing patents. Philosophically, the patent record is a goldmine of innovation and history of inventions, but without the "fair use" doctrine as found in copyright law, most of it is just centuries of dead ends.

[@GR-sg2lv]

Mind blown. One of your best and most thorough descriptions. All the angles covered.

[@thelimitingfactor]

🤠🤜🤛

[@justlisten82]

This channel is so beyond amazing! You deserve many more followers. Your videos are too smart for the masses so you'll need to be patient because most people click on hype and FUD and not well researched material coming from a brilliant man. Hopefully the tides change!

[@thelimitingfactor]

🤠 Thanks for the kind words!

[@TheFreezwater]

This just proves that KZbin’s algorithm is absolutely dumb. Else it would promote your videos more than any other stupid click baits. Brilliant and clear explanation. Just amazing work! You deserve an award for doing this.

[@AllYouWantAndMore]

This is the one. This is the video people will say told everyone what was happening before everything changed.

[@gdnasp6359]

It reminds us of battery day - nobody other than Tesla junkies/shareholders really 'got it'. I feel you are right Oliver, and this is the same thing over again. We'll share Jordan's amazing summaries and research and then it will click for the larger audience.

[@magnamic5614]

@@gdnasp6359 I still can’t believe that 99% of the world fell asleep on Battery Day!

[@MarkXHolland]

@@magnamic5614 It astounded me. Why didn't auto analysts and financial media get it?? Are they really that dense or do they just have short attention spans?

[@gdnasp6359]

@@MarkXHolland I can't help but think the journalists and analysts have too much inertia and historical baggage and cannot escape there preconceived ideas of how things will always be - old/existing tech would continue the same with only incremental improvements. But Battery Day was saying, in my view, "Here is the future everyone and it's going to happen fast". While the non-Tesla folks heard "Here is some pipedream that will take 30 years to play out."

[@pierredeloince9073]

Possible. 🧐🤓

[@jslearner]

This is an excellent description of a complex process.

[@marchelgeson]

Regarding the patent: I would guess that Tesla probably wouldn't care too much if it is issued or not as long as it isn't denied for infringement. Their goal is lots of cheap lithium available to them. They are not in the market to make money off of lithium mining and actually benefit the most if much more lithium is produced cheaply, either by them or others.

[@patreekotime4578]

Exactly. They basically let the patent office do their research on competing patents for them.

[@fkarg10]

Thank you for digging into this and providing us with detailed information!

[@thomascummings7589]

Wow, you are an amazing communicator, let me say that again you are an amazing communicator of complex ideas. This is coming from a engineering teacher. You’re one in 1 million, with the Internet your capacity to do research thoroughly understand something and then communicate that to the public is just off the charts. Thank you for all the information you gave out and I hope you can get hooked up with other topics and or people so that your gift will be put onto KZbin and many other subjects, and this will be captured forever to make the world a better place by educating people. I can’t tell you how impressed I am with your skills. KZbin will be able to amplify your gift and hard work into the future potentially forever. Rock ‘n’ roll my friend if you ever need a place to stay To stay outside of Boston I would love to take you out for dinner and give you a place to stay. Be well

[@thelimitingfactor]

Thanks for the kind words Thomas! I really appreciate it!

[@junglejim7664]

Jordan, thanks for the patent breakdown. My understanding is that clay, by definition, is made up of small particles that are easily separated in water. To my mind, it makes sense to wet mill the clay in a salt water solution, perhaps even a hot super saturated salt solution to maximize ion exchange. Wet milling is quite common in many mining and extraction operations as a way of eliminating dust and maximizing separation and suspension. In places where water is not scarce, it is even common to use high pressure hoses called monitors to create a slurry on site and then pump the slurry to the mill using pipes rather than trucks. However, in Nevada I don't think this would be feasible.

[@Global_Optimization]

Maybe the dry milling helps keep the impurities down by making it a more selective ion exchange

[@wedding2519]

My basic understanding of mechanochemistry also pushes me toward both selective processes (milling and leaching) using a slurry. It would inherently increase rate of the kinetics and the shear transfer during milling. As as side note, if the two processes are used in series then the amount of cation contaminates would additively increase (ie. the cations released in the first step would still be around during the second process step if no intermediary step to remove the cations is used).

[@konradcomrade4845]

Yeah, would need a salt-water pipeline from the pacific ocean to Nevada! The evaporation of the residual extra water could help in increasing air humidity within the North-American continent if desired.

[@charlesmoerer2394]

Thank you for the time and energy that you put in providing us this information greatly appreciated

[@andyonions7864]

Whoooahhh. Another stunning informative video Jordan. My chemistry goes back 40 odd years and this mechaochemistry is news to me. Milling obviously pulverizes, but it's never been self evident that it would also produce structural changes. That said, most chemical reactions are endothermic so you put a shed load of energy in (via Bunsen burners normally - in the lab at least) to make them happen. Mechanochemistry evidently does exactly the same thing with a mechanical energy transfer instead. I'm assuming you're getting drying effects too. But all this energy has to come from somewhere... Assume solar powered motors (with battery storage of course). There's so much beauty in this entire process. The fact that it's so environmentally benign is fantastic. The selective leaching is brilliant. I'd love for Tesla to apply its chemistry brains to other industrial extraction processes - so many are environmental disasters. I love your compare that to the Tesla process... take some clay out of the ground, grind it up for a few hours, add salt and hot water, done. Funny, succinct and economical. This simplification of any idea is the essence of comprehension and communication skills. Your skills in the battery arena are truly first class. The chemical change through mechanical energy input appears completely new to me. It sounds like there is some merit in the patent application.

[@nuvi5480]

You're right, it would be great for Tesla to tackle other problems. Low carbon/energy methods of cement and steel production come to mind.

[@nuvi5480]

I imagine boring company drills mining these resources on earth and mars.

[@thelimitingfactor]

I need to do a video on mechanochemistry! I've just started looking into it and... 🤯

[@kazedcat]

Mechanochemistry is very important in the bread making process. Work your dough! Also don't forget the salt.

[@andyonions7864]

@@kazedcat Oddly, I've just been experimenting with Keto breadmaking and one iteration I did forget the salt. Result was inexplicably failure. But if mechanochemistry is involved....

[@NapoleonGelignite]

The planetary ball mill might be replaced with an ultrasonic process. Acoustic milling is a solid state process (no moving parts) and could be hugely scaled up into a continuous flow process. (And your understanding of patents is correct)

[@burtharris6343]

You are very correct that the grant (or not) of the patent may be of little importance. Some companies are known for investing in patenting for defensive reasons, an example being Microsoft. The point of defensive patents is not income through licensing, but as a way to avoid risks of patent litigation.

[@rogerarnold5627]

Wow! Not just a great video in terms of organization, clarity of presentation, etc., but great in terms of level of detail and technical insight. Perhaps best of all is the open, unpretentious attitude.Willing to speculate, but identifying it as such. Asking for comments and feedback from anyone who might know more. Bravo!

[@jamesallen5850]

Your videos are truly unique. There are a lot of channels that talk about Tesla but none that go into the detail you do in regards to battery tech. Keep it up :)

[@thelimitingfactor]

I appreciate that James!

[@jonathanrolfsen4656]

I'm neither chemist or engineer, but I enjoy this thoroughly none-the-less. Great content/investigation/analysis!

[@tobiasmmueller]

This channel is pure gold! Thumbs up!

[@ralphwagenet852]

As always, your analysis is superb. Thanks for the effort you put into this.

[@nightkraken7257]

Fascinating field, if this isn't yours in particular your ability to interpret and explain this well is amazing! Tesla could use people like you. Best wishes to you.

[@1ajs]

its nice to see a company looking at new methods of extraction vs the status quo in mining...........

[@RawandCookedVegan]

You set the standard for good videos. Thank You!

[@bob_frazier]

Jordan, you are incredible at explaining complicated concepts. Wow, just wow.

[@thelimitingfactor]

😊 Thanks Bob!

[@WelldoneGuarantee]

Nice one, FC from Thailand

[@johnnymellon7414]

The lack of other similar ions also getting extracted by the process described in the video is almost more interesting than the high energy milling itselfe. Most people have no idea how much money you save downstream a process if you don't have to either deal with impureities or remove them. It can be cost saving in the orders of magintude

[@GoCoyote]

Another fantastic cogent breakdown and explanation of a complex and detailed project. Well Done!

[@ismailnyeyusof3520]

Thanks for this video and doing all the research work in creating it. Mechanochemistry is new to me but it makes a lot of sense. My previous career in the cement industry had familiarised me to ball milling, both wet and dry, so I recognise this as wet milling with an added twist!

[@briansilver9652]

I had 30 years at Lafarge in Canada, where did you work?

[@entspannter_hase]

Using a milling technique that has been known for decades for a novel application seems like such a Tesla-y thing to do. It also reminds me of DPMG.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Exactly!

[@RockStockChannel]

Brilliant analysis Jordan. It’s hard to see how Tesla’s acid-free clay advancements - and your videos - won’t soon become part of the significant debates currently underway about other clay projects in Nevada attempting to get permitted but meeting resistance in part because of their sulphuric acid-based flow sheets. One comment; your comparison to Spodumene process focused on roasting - which is predominant today - but it is likely that the ‘sulphate-free’ alkaline leach process from metso outotec - planned by piedmont, keliber, critical elements, Halmek AND Tesla’s own hydroxide plant in Texas will become dominant in future. Would love to see a deep dive into this which is likely to be a source of Tesla and many other OEM hydroxide supply before and after 2025.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Thanks Howard! Damn! Good point. Someday...I'll add to the giant heap of videos to do. I don't know if Tesla's process will ultimately be economical. There are too many blindspots for me. But, I'm going to have my popcorn on hand to watch this play out. In my view, even if it is economical, it will just be one more extraction method to meet a square wave of lithium demand that we won't have a handle on until the end of the decade.

[@MaximeTrepreau]

Might be your best video, impressive stuff.

[@TheStockFactory]

Really appreciate this deep dive Jordan!

[@thelimitingfactor]

Sure thing buddy!

[@markoverton5858]

Really appreciate your efforts to bring excellent info in depth to us 👍👍👏👏👏👏

[@RojCowles]

If 65C is close to the temperature that would allow efficient Li extraction then that would be well within range for solar thermal heat exchange panels so that could be another way to save money/reduce environmental impact at least during the day especially in sunnier/drier locations, say Nevada?

[@normcfu]

I think just the friction from high energy milling is going to add heat to the mixture, but don't know if will be sufficient to take it to 65C.

[@RojCowles]

@@normcfu yep, the milling process will certainly heat up the powder but for the leaching step it appears that the water/salt/clay slurry has to be held at high temperature for a few hours and that might be where solar heating might be useful, or may just be cheaper / easier to use electric heating elements and source the power from the grid

[@normcfu]

@@RojCowles If that fluid is reused, it may retain much of its heat when added to the next batch of milled clay. It could also go through heat exchangers and be cooled while heating the next batch fluid to go in. There are several possibilities of reusing the heat.

[@averagejoe5491]

My area is Metallurgical Engineering. Very nicely presented. They do have access to a parcel of 10,000 acres in Nevada bearing lithium clay. Purchased for the purpose of mining (whether demo or production, I don't know).

[@4fmagnet]

Planetary milling is MUCH higher energy than ball milling, and also provide friction/shear forces that you just can't achieve with a ball mill. Also, wet milling (both ball and planetary) is even more efficient and can achieve smaller particle sizes than dry milling. As a chemist, I would suggest wet milling in a brine solution. Planetary milling generates a LOT of heat too, so it could be a self-heating process. For industrial scale, attritor milling is another very high energy (much more than ball milling), scalable process, as it can be run in a semi-continuous mode, and it also generates a lot of heat. I see you have an attritor mill in your diagram--look into it.

[@benjaminlately]

You're the man... University level mineralogy of clay structure in about three minutes. Time to go shopping for some stocks. (Not Tesla)

[@mikeconnery4652]

Absolutely brilliant business move. Also great video.

[@zilogfan]

Awesome video!! hard to believe my pateron donation is responsible for this great content!! ;)

[@thelimitingfactor]

🤜🤛🔥

[@davids.6671]

Heared mechanochemistry the first time and I own a M.sc. in Milling technology and construction machinery. Very interesting concept and you did it very good!

[@TheElectricMan]

Excellent video, thanks for the information!

[@adrianfortmoviereviewsbook9821]

"Dense Balls" is going to be my new Twitter name.

[@no_more_free_nicks]

You spend a lot of time in reading papers and patents, everybody is laughing because you said balls.

[@johnmqueripel2367]

Just don't take too many spins.

[@stevenberry54]

the way he said it was pretty funny Lol

[@thelimitingfactor]

🤣🤣🤣

[@chrishaberbosch1029]

Very hard balls.

[@thomascummings7589]

Worlds best communicator of complex ideas my hats off to you.

[@Buzzhumma]

Awesome content but i really do feel that the best way to mill down initially is just as a media blast machine works . This can be shot continuously at 1mm square ceramic mesh wall at very high speed and will return via a loop for more smashing until the particle mass fails to exceed the vortex particle seperation vacuum . It then goes into another mill for further refining. The first process I beleive would be the most effecient.

[@briansilver9652]

What size particles are you starting with?

[@Buzzhumma]

@@briansilver9652 probably sand size i guess but the number crunchers will find out from the electricity’s bill. 👍🏻

[@johnmqueripel2367]

Superb video.

[@andrewrance]

For the longest time I used to sell composting toilets, no council regulator could get their heads around them and would block any planning permit for them to be installed almost anywhere... It took triple the time effort to get the accepted as I would have to interface between various municipalities to get them to feel safe enough to endorse with their reputation, legal risks, ramifications from insurance companies all factors even the EPA enjoyed being involved. Vulcan Energy and others have geothermal versions of resource efficient extraction... all in bench testing phase... I think Tesla should take this technology to China mainly because most of the pollution being created by the EV revolution will be created there and because they can get to market orders of magnitude faster.

[@MrKhogan1]

Elon always addresses the impediments with innovative solutions. This may fix the battery shortage blocking full scale EV adoption. Gotta luv that guy!

[@KenLord]

This video makes me feel a lot better about my concerns of the process ... You've acknowledged that it can be a long / difficult process to get a mine approved for production. They've already been working on the process for 3 years. And the process will be so much cleaner than expected, that it will be a lot easier to get through that massive regulatory permitting process. Even if Tesla doesn't get a patent, the application at least shows prior art which will protect them from others patenting the process.

[@normcfu]

It will come down to the NIMBYs that will say the clay without lithium is an eyesore.

[@KenLord]

@@normcfu And those NIMBY's will be funded by big oil and ICE car dealerships.

[@alisonl6767]

Great work on the über deep-dive. I can't wait to see what Tesla does and whether the rest if the industry will adopt the technology. yay.

[@adamrak7560]

It will be probably excruciatingly difficult for Tesla to develop ,design and build a radically new Lithium mine. The "traditional" industry will point to them and say "told you so it was not possible" along the way. But Tesla is no stranger to hardship, so they have a real chance of succeeding.

[@markohilden2516]

A nice analysis. A large tumbling mill such as shown in the video would likely be a poor idea for this application due to the relatively large grinding media size relative to the particle size. Perhaps a better choice for scaling up would be an IsaMill / Netzsch mill which has comparatively much higher energy intensity (W/m3) and the smaller media size (ceramic beads rather than steel balls) would have a significantly larger surface area resulting in more ball-particle contacts for more efficient grinding. Even so, it would be an expensive process for the grinding alone.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Nice! Thanks for the input!

[@mackxue779]

Another amazing video! Exciting progress!

[@tdanielmidgley]

This was so good. I am a total chemistry noob, and now I understand everything about the lithium extraction process. You, sir, are a genius. Thanks for making this, and Tesla is going to dominate the world.

[@thelimitingfactor]

🤜🤛

[@JoelSapp]

Jordan, in the semi-selective magnesium chloride method, couldn't Tesla just sell the non-lithium metals ? It looks like Chromium, calcium are more expensive than magnesium per kg. Seems like this would make their lithium even less expensive if these impurities could be separated inexpensively but thats a big if I guess.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Hey Joel! Great question! Definitely, they could sell those. However, how much will it cost to separate those elements away from the lithium and what is the impurity tolerance for each element? Battery manufacturers will accept some elements as impurities in miniscule amounts, and others they have pretty much a zero tolerance. The question is, which elements? Were the elements they showed the full list they tested for, or did Tesla just report the elements that were the most detrimental to battery life or the most difficult to remove from the leach solution? This also leaves the question of what to do at the remediation stage. Elon said it was a dig and replace process. If the clay has been deeply altered, can it be replaced? Sodium is naturally found in the interlayer of the clay, so putting it back in the ground with .3% of the Li+ swapped out for Na+ should be manageable.

[@JoelSapp]

@@thelimitingfactor yeah. Prob would make more sense to run through the salt process and then run through the magnesium process if you wanted the extra materials versus trying to separate later. But thanks for the response. Great topic. Maybe you could write a companion piece on insideEvs or teslarati and get more eyeballs on this great work.

[@rogerstarkey5390]

@@thelimitingfactor "What to do at the remediation stage?" Engaging "KISS Mode"..... Tesla (Boring company) has the machinery to build bricks......? As long a contamination isn't harmful in that application. "The best remediation is no remediation"?

[@DougJessee]

Can imagine boring company machines surfacing in the Nevada desert like sand worms from Dune! 😜🤪

[@gary.richardson]

Could the magnesium salt may be part of a secondary extraction process that works the extracted brine after primary lithium extraction? Alternatively, I wonder if a ratio of sodium and Magnesium salts may have a “fine tuning” effect on the extraction process?

[@realfuturist9263]

Awesome video Jordan!!

[@thelimitingfactor]

Thanks buddy!

[@beilkster]

Your patent understanding is accurate. I also agree that EV demand precludes the need for an EV tax credit.

[@Mrbfgray]

EV credits are just so our useless pols can take full credit for something they had nothing to do with.

[@subthousandoaks]

@@Mrbfgray And think it's an acceptable excuse for their inability to pass carbon tax laws which would be a real solution to the problem

[@Mrbfgray]

@@subthousandoaks A better solution but at this point it's a little moot unless you buy into climate alarmism which I don't. The renewable E and EV markets have reached escape velocity anyway, granted with some government help over prior yrs, but now they are economic on their own merits in a competitive market place. There wouldn't be any EV market to subsidize (or more accurately--to balance fossil fuel subsidies) if not for Tesla making them useful compelling and reasonably affordable.

[@123chugchug]

I believe a year or more ago I saw where Musk bought a large area (maybe 40,000 acres) of Nevada for a lithium mine.

[@KM-sz9ef]

Blown away. Subscribed.

[@wlhgmk]

There is a membrane extraction method for extracting Li from brines which looks like it will be a game changer. It could be used along with this grinding method to extract Li from the soup. In addition, ball mills are used to crush Cu ores and then froth flotation is used. This might be an approach for Li. The key is finding a set of chemicals that attach to the Li so that the bubbling can float the Li to the surface. With Cu, tiny concentrations of Cu in the ore can be profitably extracted.

[@jamesowens7176]

Brilliantly explained! Thanks for taking the time to delve into this and make the information accessible to the rest of us!

[@johannesmuller3294]

Regarding filing the patent with limited chances of having it granted: Tesla might not necessarily hope to make money with the patent but rather use the application as a means to mitigate the risk that some other entity might want to try patenting that approach. By filing for a patent even if it is not granted, no one else can patent this method and block them from using it

[@MrRXR1]

A high pressure Water Spinning Disk Reactor is a efficient way to break down (actually cavitating the water) molecules, then centrifuge & filter :)

[@donaldhawkins5209]

Another well done episode one of many

[@NicholasShanks]

15:17 it might be that the selective leach stage is referring to % relative to ITS input-the results of the selective extraction, and the net impurities are the sum of the blue and purple stages.

[@cbsergio]

Thank you for such interesting video. My take is that pendulum mills may offer the right grinding and production rate to scale this process up.

[@clavo3352]

Really good video. Keeping the know-how secret is just as important to Tesla as getting a patent. Sometimes one can disclose enough of a process to effectively give away any industrial advantage they may have enjoyed by just keeping quiet. On the other hand failing to apply can leave one open to being enjoined from using thier own process if someone else patents the invention! The patent system is coming to a tipping point where its benefits to society are outweighed by its potential impediment to progress. I don't know whether the statutory invention registration (SIR) is still available to protect one from being prevented from executing ones own invention due to patenting by others. These patents will soon start tripping all over each other requiring a congressional revisit to the patent quagmire we're in.

[@SejalPatelDrSej]

Amazing that this isn’t getting more publicity.

[@vanekirk]

Nice deep dive. Nice work!

[@schmidmarcel1001]

it is possible to install a magnet coil below and above the standard ball mill socket to increase the impact speed? the upper magnet coil heals the balls higher and the lower one pulls them

[@JamesBlacklock]

Super informative! Thanks!

[@Chainyanker007]

Excellent explanation, thank you.

[@MorryB]

One important detail sometimes missing from the discussions of proposed lithium extraction methods is the feasibility based on ESG (Environmental, Social, and Governance). Consider the impact of creating many new large open-pit mines to feed the giant ball mills required for exploding Li demand. It seems unlikely that this will be possible in most western countries given the current public sentiments towards such massive land disruptions affecting wildlife or leading to runoff polluting nearby waters. Instead, using some form of safer (automated) below-ground mining process, or better yet, in situ recovery (ie DLE) seems like the most logical way to proceed. I think Tesla are most likely hedging their bets, developing technologies in case it makes more sense in certain locations. In other cases, the IP for processes like DLE may already be owned by existing producers and perhaps not worth efforts to reinvent when they can simply license the technology, or even just buy them out! Having an in-house technology that's marketed as being ready to deploy may also give them good leverage in pricing discussions with 3rd party Li suppliers.

[@richardrigling4906]

One old "common wisdom" regarding parents vs, patent applications is that the application is in many ways more powerful than the actual patent, since it inhibits infringement without the clock running.

[@thelimitingfactor]

EXCELLENT insight! Pardon the crude language, but it's a cock block, lol.

[@garthfarkley]

Great info and analysis

[@Radio_FM_3123]

Like the synthetic ion-exchange resin, the clay, just like zeolite, also has ion selective "functions". Both sodium ions & lithium ions are mono-valent, it is difficult to tell which type of ions the clay has higher attraction to. But it is a very clever way to do the ion-extraction.

[@Howard2006]

Very interesting video which does a good job in explaining the patent application. Scale-up of this type of heterogeneous reaction will be challenging. It appears that the ball mill design has not been scaled-up past lab scale and that may be a major barrier to production level lithium extraction.

[@thelimitingfactor]

A great point!

[@cbsergio]

Tesla should take a look on pendulum mills. The ceramics industry has a long experience using this kind of grinding process.

[@joabarrera]

Jordan, there is another aspect about patents and it has to do with how disruptive/valuable the patent can be and the maturity the business it is coming from/suppurating. Most disruptive patents are process for new business, the value of the patents is unknown but if you manage to get the business around it working the patent adds value, if the business is ongoing and the patent seams to hold incremental value it usually get processed and publish (like defense walls) but if it promises a lot of value then it gets withheld and kept as a trade secret ( secret weapon). The reasoning being that it will give competitors clues around your secret weapon, unless its leaked competitors would not get up to speed. I learned this at HP, disruptive tech ideas for making print heads rarely see the day of light or a patent office, Incremental patents do. Lithium extracción still has to deliver value, but tab-less electrode as part if battery making is an ongoing business and may never see the patent office as long as tesla is quickly improving it and keeps competition in the dark.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Fascinating! Thanks for the input!

[@ericsimard5650]

Great video, very well explained. Surprised you did not have Cypress Development on your chart. They are launching their pilot plant using hydrochloride and is a very similar to this patent.

[@royalcitysax]

Yes, CYPRESS will be the first company to benefit or even to be bought out by Tesla for this process.

[@PalimpsestProd]

Excellent vid as always but also, best one yet.

[@honocoroko9883]

impressive explanations ..thanks

[@gppg1799]

Hyper informative

[@florenciovela7570]

i've ordered the tri motor fsd ct & i can't wait for it to get here!! I may buy the S or the Y in the mean time..i got lots of solar & back up battery system as well.

[@davidwilkie9551]

Zeib Technique has been used for super fine grinding and Labatory tested getting ore samples in solution. Maybe a Rod Mill for hard Clays? Mining Industries stuff, complicated and messy, but this new technology is interesting.

[@johnbonitz7658]

@JordanGiesige I wonder if there is an even more direct way to break the bonds rather than ball milling or mechanochemistry? How about using sound at precise frequencies needed to break the specific desired bonds? Like how an opera singer can use 556 hertz to shatter glass? This could be a peaceful use of military sonic and ultrasonic directed weapons.

[@peterfireflylund]

Something like this is possible, but using light. Uranium enrichment is incredibly energy intensive and slow. Using precisely tuned lasers can speed it up a bit.

[@kazedcat]

@@peterfireflylund Yeah a microwave tune to deliver photons with the energy needed to break the bonds. Then I realise that you are essentially microwaving tons of dirt to extract lithium not exactly what I would imagine to be an energy efficient process.

[@MorryB]

@@kazedcat Microwaves (or RF) energy have already been used to heat the ground at hundreds of meters depth to improve recovery from heavy oil deposits. Look up "L3Harris"

[@SimonEllwood]

I wonder if the clay after the process will have practical applications, this would make the process even more beneficial and economical?

[@briansilver9652]

Even lower-grade clays can be made into bricks, so good thought.

[@Braingeyser64]

Still the only one that can make battery tech understandable to us laydudes. Nice work. Very interesting.

[@tommckinney1489]

This application is so "simple" that I can't believe it hasn't been thought or and/or used before. It seems it's just basic chemistry and should be obvious to anyone skilled in the art. It'll be interesting to see if it's actually granted.