Tesla's Model Y Update: Battery chemistry changed in China-Built variants?

Tesla's Model Y Update: Battery chemistry changed in China-Built variants?
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[@john_in_phoenix]

I have been testing LFP cells (large prismatic cells) for 3 years now. Charging to 100% is not a problem, what you don't want to do is charge them to 100% and let them sit for extended periods. Basically the flammable part of the cell is the electrolyte, short out a cell and it will boil off (and is very toxic and flamable). Unlike NMC, it won't propagate and cause a big problem with adjacent cells.

[@kiae-nirodiariesencore4270]

Thanks for explaining that John, good to have comments from someone who works in the industry. My 2019 Kia e-Niro has an NMC622 pack, which is now 'old tech', such is the pace of development! 'Way back' in 2019 when I got the car the manual recommended to charge to 100% once a month, this to give the BMS a chance to look at all the cell voltages, so they say. I don't always remember to do it and tend to only charge to 100% at home before going on a long trip, so that is always done on a slow home charger. The e-niro has 294 cells in the pack arranged in 3 modules of 98 cells each. The battery is quoted at 64kWh but is in fact 67.5 kWh so I guess if the BMS sees a weak cell or two it will raise the voltage on the others to compensate. So after 81,000 km I am seeing no discernible range loss at all but that does not mean there has been no battery degradation. I pointed this out on my channel 'Kia e-Niro Diaries Encore' recently...Are range loss and battery degradation the same thing? TBH I think the longevity of NMC versus LFP is to all intents and purposes a moot point. An NMC pack should be able to do 1,500 full charge/discharge cycles before seeing a >20% range loss. Adopt a narrower charging regime as I and I'm sure most people do (20% to 80% say) and you are looking at 2,500 cycles. For the e-Niro that works out at 675,000 km..half a life time of driving for the average driver in Europe. The biggest benefit of LFP is the lower cost, and of course as you describe, the lower risk of fires.

[@VictorLim-lz7kq]

Like to hear more about LFP on model Y vs 2170 on model Y. Now deciding which ones to get?

[@danharold3087]

What do you consider an extended period in regards to a LFP at 100%?

[@josepalmito3572]

I plugged in my model 3 (LFP) for 5 weeks when went for a vacation and charge it all the time when it’s Parked in my garage. No issues so far.

[@john_in_phoenix]

@@danharold3087 Really, anything more than a day at 100% will cause degradation. It is actually quite slight, but will build up over time. Solution? Charge up and drive 2 miles or so, much less degradation at 95% state of charge. I have been testing cells for solar energy storage and specifically tracking degradation for the past 3 years. If you charge to 100% and just let them sit for a year, you will drop capacity by about 5%. So go ahead and charge to 100%, but use the stored power. They really are 98% efficient (using calibrated instruments I have actually been measuring 99% efficiency). That efficiency is really tough to beat. FYI, that last 5% will do more harm than the top 5%. Try not to drop below 10% state of charge, that last 5% will generate more heat within the cell than the top 95% will. This is measured at relatively low rates, nobody wants a solar storage battery that only lasts one or two hours.

[@evogreen81]

Canadian EV incentive is $5000 CDN, BC and Quebec have additional provincial EV incentives if you live in those provinces. Not sure why Sam is saying Canada has a $7000 dollar incentive.

[@lua-nya]

He probably got numbers mixed up with somewhere else, he gotta look at plenty places.

[@yeetan6967]

Model Y long range already qualifies for the $5k Cdn federal rebate at the C$69,990 price tag too

[@YourDesignerGuy]

Nova Scotia also has an additional rebate for both new and used EVs

[@GreatCreative]

Interesting. Tesla cancelled our order and posted reduced range on the Canada site. We had to reorder. It seems it is coming from China and I'm happy to get the LFP battery because we keep cars for a long time. I also read they are better built in China vs. the US. It's a win all around.

[@davewells2244]

I have a Model Y RWD with LFP battery here in Canada. The Shanghai build quality is flawless. I really wanted the LFP battery and am very happy with it.. I am now starting to see Long Range and Performance models on the roads here, (VIN verified). I don't think they have LFP batteries. One Long Range owner let me examine his display. It did not list LFP and had the limited daily charge slider like the U.S. cars and showed a 72 kw pack instead of the 60 kw pack that I have. BTW, I'm getting 425 kms on a full charge.

[@RoguePC4U]

Seems like a smart move all around. Canada benefits from better-built Shanghai cars, LFP chemistry and possible lower pricing. And Tesla benefits with higher profit margins, plus saves US-built cars for the IRA credit. This company... so good.

[@brunoethier896]

Considering that LFP batteries are less efficien in cold weather compared to NMC, I do have a problem with Tesla changing the chemistry without telling the customer or offering the choice explicitely.

[@john_in_phoenix]

Even for NMC based cells, Tesla has a heat pump specifically to combat this problem. When in use, LFP cells like the same temperature that you do. If you leave for work at approximately the same time everyday, it will preheat the battery and there will be no problem. Driving to a charging station and it will heat or cool the battery as appropriate. I live in the desert and would much rather have the LFP chemistry due to the increased longevity.

[@treborheminway3814]

Lfp is the clear choice in warm climates. It depends on your situation in cold. They won't give full power or charge fast on a cold battery...They are getting better though.

[@lua-nya]

A lot if the getting better is about the systems around the battery. Thermal management is kind of interesting with these if you wanna charge at 3C and all that stuff.

[@philjklew]

Makes sense that Shanghai Gigafactory should increase exporting to other countries given the severity of competition and price cutting in China.

[@YourDesignerGuy]

Thanks! We just traded our 2022 Model 3 RWD for a new 2023 Model Y RWD here in Nova Scotia!

[@ChicagoBob123]

I am enjoying lfp and charging to 100%, it eliminates range anxiety

[@mattconstance2196]

Woah woah woah. A slight decreasing in current LR range but it is potentially LFP? If it wasn't for Juniper next year I would be handy over my money today.

[@rickmasters418]

What is Juniper?

[@slimjim1125]

@@rickmasters418 The Model Y refresh codename. "Project Juniper". Just like the refreshed Model 3 is called "Project Highland", which is expected to be offically announced any time from now.

[@UncleGreatness]

Has a future customer of Tesla cars. My major concern is this when I place my order it is not clear what battery pack my car will have. Unlike gas cars battery packs seem to be the most expensive part on the car. But seems like as a customer we have no power/ choice to determine what type of pack, chemistry, structural, non-structural, giga castings front, rear. We will get. I think that needs to change...

[@danharold3087]

Are you asking Tesla to open a line for each variation or disclosure of what is in a car?

[@UncleGreatness]

@Dan Harold No, I'm asking for when I pull up the order page for a Model Y. Before selecting tires, paint color, interior color, wheel size. I want to select which batteries I get! 4680s, CATL, BYD, LFP, ect. I want to select front and rear castings. When do you find these things out? When you pick up your car?? I want to know the most important features Upfront! I feel like nobody is talking about that and Tesla has some pretty smart customers, or I thought??

[@danharold3087]

@@UncleGreatness When looked at from a manufacturing standpoint what you are asking for flies in the face of lower production costs. A non casting option would add to the price of all cars because all that bodyshop and staff for building the stamped equivlent would need to be retained. This will be thousands. Batteries choice would have a similar effect. I have not researched it but Tesla the VIN includes the battery type. You can buy a car from inventory and know the battery type. People generally know what batteries are in use at each plant for each car.

[@UncleGreatness]

@Dan Harold as a TSLA share holder I agree with what your saying. However, as a consumer I guess I can't understand why I can't have my cake and eat it too. When I am ready to buy my first Tesla I guess it will be from the existing inventory I will shop. Doesn't seem like the Order to Delivery experience I was expecting... What is your background in Tesla? Do you own a Tesla just curious?

[@widi.1984]

Well in Alberta we need more superchargers in remote locations. The range is definitely an issue. During the colder days my 180km commute drains my 360+km that I start with. The westerly wind and the cold just kills the range between Calgary and the mountains. If I can always rely on a consistent and predictable range… it’d go for less range, but that’s not the case. Moreover, going to play in the outdoor is often a stretch or impossible since there are no chargers nearby. We have to rely on a second car for that. At this point I wouldn’t mind a trailer/range extender

[@jvaillancourt]

As a future Model Y buyer, it is extremely disapointing that Model Y LR loses 11% range in Canada (from 533 km to 496) for road tripping in winter where you can easily lose an additional 15% because temperatures often drops well below freezing (I have a lot of experience with a Model 3 SR that I sold for this reason). For me, 400km is inadequate for raod trips during winter times in Canada. 500 km might be a bare minimum but I was really hoping Tesla would increase the 536km range of Model Y LR version by the time I buy it next year. I can't believe they are doing the opposite! I don't think Tesla accounted for the winter conditions and the the Canadien market in making this change

[@M85Iroc]

I see where you’re coming from. And it depends on case by case. Living in Montreal and doing the occasional road trip, the RWD model Y would suit my needs. EV for short trips to work and around town. And a second gas car for long trips for now. I’m still thinking about it, but I’m leaning towards ordering one very soon

[@Dupont550]

It might not suit you, but it would be awesome for so many other people.

[@patriklysenko6990]

Old LR version was with nickel based version batteries ( which you shouldn't charge till 100% cause of degradation) new version is with LFP you can charge till 100% ..

[@nickmcconnell1291]

Uh did you know gas cars also lose about the same amount of range in the Winter there? Thicker cold air causes the fuel injectors to have to add additional fuel to each cylinder to ensure a correct air/fuel mixture. This results in lowering of mileage per tankful. In a gas car you just don't realize it as much because you just pop down to any corner station and gas up. When fast chargers become ubiquitous you'll do the same and not even think about it.

[@jvaillancourt]

@@nickmcconnell1291 I should illustrate my point with a concrete example : EPA range =496km With 5% degradation = 471km Highway real range at 110-115km/hrs (-20%) = 377km Highway -10 Celsius (-15%) =320km Actual useable between normal supercharging sessions (80%) =256km So this about 2h15min between superchargers in theory for this example but in many cases it would be less depending on charging locations (unless you want to spend more time changing above 85%, which is very slow). So it depends how long you want to drive before having to stop. For me, I would like to be able to drive 2h30 hours at highway speed in the cold without having to charge above 85%. That is only my experience and my personnal need

[@tonypaca3015]

Charging the long range to 90% it’s about 297 miles instead of 330. If the lfp can charge to 100% then it is way better to get 309 miles than 297.

[@bytemark6508]

I live in Canada and the rebate for electric vehicles is not exactly 7000. First of all, there are 2 possible rebates. The federal govnt rebate is $5000 for a sedan up to $55000 before taxes and fees and options (that is, the car could be costing 60000, if the base model is priced at 55000), or an SUV up to $60000 (with the same conditions). So, Tesla positioned the base prices of models 3 and Y right under the limit for allowing the rebates. Now all model 3 and Y are qualifying for the govt rebate of $5000. Then, there is the provincial govt rebate. Canada is a federation and has 2 level of government. Not all provinces have rebates for EVs. Right now, the largest rebate is given by the government of Quebec, where I live. The amount is $7000 under the condition that the price of the vehicle purchased is under $65000 with any options before taxes and fees, regardless of the type (sedan, SUV, vans, etc). So to clarify, in Quebec, only the model 3 RWD, model 3 AWD and model Y RWD qualify for this rebate. Therefore, in Quebec, right now the difference between the model Y RWD and model y AWD is actually $17000, because the first qualifies for the QC rebate, while the second one doesn't.

[@thejaswal]

Not sure how accurate is that the Canadian MYLR coming from China will have LPF battery. according to what I just heard an hour ago from a reliable source, the Chinese assembled LR with 497km range will still have NCA battery, it’s just smaller pack. (I live in Canada)

[@marcelleblanc2970]

Agreed, the MY LR from China is not using LFP packs. The range difference between the Shanghai MY LR and the Fremont MY LR was different chemistries, where Fremont uses 2170 cells with NCA chemistry (from Panasonic USA), and Shanghai uses 2170 cells with NMC chemistry (from LG in China). The range and weight of the new MY LR offered in Canada matches the Shanghai MY LR specs, with cells that have been previously confirmed to be NMC chemistry. The LG NMC chemistry has slightly lower energy density compared to the Panasonic NCA cells.

[@dougwedel9484]

Is there an outside chance Canada gets a different battery chemistry to resist cold? Would the Scandinavian countries get this same chemistry as well?

[@richardlocke7264]

Are LFP batteries good in cold weather? Does Cold harm the Battery? Seems like this is important information for Canadian sales

[@anthonybrazzale7251]

If you are using your car normally ie a few km per day it doesn’t matter much which battery chemistry you have. It is when you go on a road trip that you would charge to 100%. This is when the decrease in range would be felt.

Most important thing for any battery type is that you don't charge if fully and then let it sit there. LFP battery manages that better but still degrades when fully charged

[@Nerdmom1701]

The discount in Canada is $5000 federally. Provincial discounts may apply as well. In British Colombia we get another $4000 if your income is below a certain amount. You I'm also get discounts on chargers and ability to travel in the special High Occupancy Lanes on the highway.

[@tonyanthony1933]

Many owners of LFP based Teslas might want to charge to 95% or so just so regenerative braking works correctly when you leave the house. Now that I have a US made Model Y, when I leave the house in my 2017 volt, the regenerative braking doesn't work properly till I get about 4 miles from home and its noticeably annoying. I know you can poke a setting for the brakes to simulate regenerative braking, but that wears out the brakes faster and wastes electricity you just put into the battery to top-it-off. Other than that, I think LFP batteries are a thumbs-up.

[@MrGMawson2438]

Afternoon mate

[@AtifKhan-fw5jd]

Amazing video

[@vlad_417]

LFP will not give a long range. These must be m3p batteries

[@ainschuntayleuhn1147]

Where I live in Canada, EV’s simply aren’t on the Road during our Winter.

[@alexandregauvin5570]

10k more but awd …. In Canada the base is rwd

[@briannewman6216]

Tesla needs to offer a RWD car with a large battery so that a long range car is available that is not AWD. Keep the AWD model for those that want it and let people buy a cheaper RWD model with a long range for those that do not need AWD.

[@geraldb.2245]

This is the way.

[@kitatit]

Agreed, AWD is unnecessary for a large proportion of drivers. Many cars it’s standard and it makes it quite critical that you have very similar tyres of matching age and condition.

[@theairstig9164]

It’s marketing. Offer AWD with a big battery only so that people don’t realise the front drive is cheap and the battery is more than 40% of the value of the new car. Also, nobody will buy a AWD with a small battery. The large battery RWD will be quite a bit slower to accelerate with a diminishing return on the size of the pack. Also, it may come down to assembly line. Is a new line required just for RWD long range?

[@TVseriesfangirl]

Great

[@ChKashifRasheed]

Ur videos is great always

[@electricviking]

Thank you so much 😀

[@johnfrancis4401]

As usual Sam you are spot on 👍

[@inclusivelove5165]

Lower than 60k there is federal incentive of 5000 plus provincial 7000 [quebec]. 12000 cash!

[@willmac5642]

Was told by a Thai Tesla rep that battery changes were coming

[@sparkysho-ze7nm]

Ur great Mr Sam

[@danielstehura9657]

I went and looked at the MG 4 in Thailand and I cannot live with a 51 kWh battery in a country that has few charging stations. It’s a good commuter car for inner city. But I like to go on road trips. The BYD ATTO it’s only 10 kW more for 400,000 baht no thank you the dashboard looks like it comes from a clown show. Every time I see the dashboard on a BYD I want to throw up and the red rubber bands on the door looks like another stupid idea. If the MG for what is 75 kWh for 1.2 million baht, I would go and buy one today. The car looks very good and the dashboard doesn’t look like a clown show!

[@Roboticpycotic]

Shawn i have heard that below -20 c the tesla battery has a tiny heater to keep batteries from becoming damaged? Is this true!? What if i Park my car at airport for one week in Winnipeg, Edmonton, ect in January with 5% charge? Am I going to need new batteries

[@kitatit]

Insurance premiums might be lower to.

[@danharold3087]

Why would they. Gas cars are at least 10 time more likely to catch fire than electric. Most of the EV fires are traced back to manufacturing defects arguably mostly from LG Chem.

[@yorkyone2143]

@@danharold3087 EV's with structural battery packs are more likely to be written off than ice cars in a similar collision, which is why their insurance costs are much higher.

[@theairstig9164]

No. Not until the actuaries have a history they can refer to

[@qilu2004]

from china to canada, not from usa to canada, what does it say about texas and CA factories?

[@Jeddin]

It says that USA made Teslas qualify for 7500 off and China made Tesla aren’t. So it would be silly not to sell every single USA Built Tesla in USA not send to Canada so they can all get 7500 off and supply Canada from China instead.

[@Hiltsuk1]

Anybody seen a model Y hardware 4 coming from China?

[@Andersljungberg]

There are those who criticize the electric car specifically because most of the batteries come from China. And for what the working situation is like for those who pick up the materials from the ground that are used to manufacture the batteries. Some also believe that it is not environmentally friendly, but that is another matter

[@danharold3087]

These are LFP or Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries. None of these involve people picking up minerals off the ground. You are thinking of cobalt. At investor day Elon said Tesla will be doing a 3rd party audit and installing cameras at the cobalt mine(s) to ensure there are no children involved. BEVs especially when coupled with wind do far less environmental damage than ICE and oil refining that actually consumes cobalt. EV batteries are recycled to preserve the minerals. Please stop listening to the FUDsters. Oil as fuel is a bad thing.

[@ronnythompson9115]

Strange that Canada doesn't have a high import duty like most other countries to protect local industry?

[@danharold3087]

Canada currently has little of the EV industry to protect. Looks like battery may be ramping up. There is lots of potential. Canadians please confirm.

[@Raymund-Swales]

Canada doesn't have domestic car manufacturing companies. It builds cars for manufacturers from the US and Japan.

[@user-pp2cj7rx7c]

What a car 🚗

[@Sonofabeach2006]

Yawn, but when are Chinese Y’s going to structural batteries? Until they get an IDRA (and now) Juniper I’ll hold off ordering… I so want one though 🥲

[@jb5music]

Absolutely hilarious. You blathered on superfluously for record amounts of time giving no facts and information about the battery chemistry change whatsoever. What a talent

[@robertfonovic3551]

Engage brain before putting mouth in gear. Viking should try it.

[@TeslaAllegory]

model Y in israel arrives from berlin

[@nickmcconnell1291]

Hey Canadians. Have you US friend buy you a Tesla at 30K then sell it to you. Would that save money even with import taxes?

[@SuperMassman]

😂 I have no loyalty to America Car companies... If China produces a better, cheaper car to be imported to the US,, sign me up

[@mikeliu5201]

Given the current geopolitical situation, I don’t think any Chinese car manufacturer will consider exporting to US in foreseeable future. Plus current demand exceeds their production.

[@byhyew]

BYD was the most likely candidate, as it already runs factories for its electric buses in the US. But the treatment of Huawei and Tik Tok really scare Chinese investors off.

[@pdloder]

Where & when did Elon say that "you guys in China make the best cars"?

[@courtneyvegan9448]

He just went China. Did you not see that?

[@danharold3087]

Yup he just told the Tesla workers in China they make the highest quality cars.

[@dougellis2216]

You love new batteries but hate the only company thats whole fleet will benefit from everyone's tech...?

[@peterinns5136]

My hope is that China's economy becomes so dependent on the West that they are no longer interested in dominating Asia Pacific region. EV's are not the same as cheap textiles and junk toys. It appalls me that Australian iron ore ends up in warships that threaten our regional freedoms. Australian coal is used to produce the steel for those ships. It is definitely preferable that it ends up in EV's instead.

[@davidnorton5887]

A famous communist once said, 'the capitalists are so greedy, they'll sell us the rope that we'll use to hang them'.

[@davidnorton5887]

A famous communist once said, 'the capitalists are so greedy, they'll sell us the rope that we'll use to hang them'.

[@eish3291]

Is china threatening your freedom to bully it ?

[@danharold3087]

Lets see if I can keep this PC and not be censored. That was my hope at one time. It seems that leaders are not looking at trade. They start stupid wars. But for items specific to chinese culture, chinese goods could be replaced by goods manufactured elsewhere. We buy from china because they do it cheaper. Too much political problems and the world will look elsewhere. EU and Russia need each other that did not stop Putin. Russia sell titanium and uranium. This is bad for Russia because other countries will develop alternate and even local supplies if needed. It was cheaper to buy these from Russia the mine and refine them locally.