Testing out the Coustillier (Burgundian's new unique unit)

How good is the Coustillier? How does its charge attack work? Let's investigate!
0:14 How the charge attack works & which units it applies to
1:29 Damage over time
2:20 vs Paladins
3:03 vs Camels and halberdiers
4:45 vs Battle elephants
5:00 vs Archers
5:50 vs villagers and monks
6:15 My thoughts on advantages/disadvantages
6:45 Ways to balance them?
Patreon: / spiritofthelaw
Full intro song: • Spirit of the Law Chan...
Background music from Epidemic Sound: www.epidemicsou...
Game: Age of Empires II Definitive Edition

[@SpiritOfTheLaw]

Update: The Coustillier as of Feb 11 no longer does 2x damage to archers. The charge attack has also been reduced by 10 (from +35/+40 to +25/+30).

[@CsStoker]

*Sad Burgundian noises*

[@immortalwarrior2695]

Noooooo. 35 and 40 damage is great

[@honnorgaurd]

so... does this mean they can no longer 1 shot a loomed villager even if they are elite and fully upgraded?

[@amazingname.6400]

God damnit

[@adwans1491]

Now it is useless

[@wisdomball4584]

Man I have never played AOE2 I just like watching you talk about numbers.

[@Raiom.]

Wait that is illegal

[@ikejohnson5494]

Thought I was the only one

[@Raiom.]

@@ikejohnson5494 that is illegal x2

[@undisclosedplayer5677]

Came to the comments to say this

[@uberjoe-08]

You should play it its so much fun and great game you maybe be able to play as your nation

[@Avinash_Lincoln]

Teutonic Knight: Ok, I will give you a head start by not attacking you.

[@niconilo97]

69 perfect

[@alexdelarge2095]

TL;DW: enjoy them now, before they get Obsidian-Arrowed.

[@123Juniiorr]

they removed obsidian arrow

[@arforafro5523]

@@123Juniiorr Bruh thats the joke

[@Raiom.]

So sad to just fucking delete a meme.

[@mattwithahat3857]

It was long overdue.

[@kevlon_]

The skirm upgrade is kinda sick tho

[@petersmythe6462]

These could be *BRUTAL* as a raiding unit. Villager one shot machine.

[@raihanaufall]

Raiding in castle age

[@tankofnova9022]

@@raihanaufall Villagers only get one buff, Loom. Even in Imperial age you can snipe villagers with these. I can even see people converting Coustilliers and having them retreat immediately in an attempt to mass them for this exact purpose later. Imagine an Aztec player doing this with their 95 hp monks. They can't be one shot, but will still need some protection.

[@mahiknight]

Geographically speaking, Burgundy is located within France meaning that the Coustillier counts as French Cavalry cementing Franks as now having the strongest Cavalry arsenal in the game

[@rodrigoapostol4598]

You mean politically, not geographically

[@bratan_archer]

@@rodrigoapostol4598 No, geographically and culturally. There was no political "France" back then.

[@rodrigoapostol4598]

@@bratan_archer indeed. But the term referred to states limits and border is politically. Thus geographically refers to natural formations and so

[@immortalwarrior2695]

Tell me if I am wrong but isn't burgundy lands consist of northwestern France, Belgium and Netherlands. So they are not neccessily french

[@bratan_archer]

@@immortalwarrior2695 actually their main land is the province of Burgundy which is middle/east France, but they also had the Flemish territories that were later ceded to the Habsburgs when Burgundy was absorbed into the French Kingdom.

[@letdomf]

Best counter: flaming camels !

[@Robert-vk7je]

Fighting memes with memes, eh? :D

[@SIGNOR-G]

@@Robert-vk7je after all it takes a diamond to brake a diamond

[@annaairahala9462]

@@Robert-vk7je It's no joke one of the most effective counters. On equal resources the flaming camels should win and the coustillier can't hit and run from the attack

[@Wanderer1258]

@@annaairahala9462 But sadly you need to advance to the imperial age and research Timurid Seigecraft (which isn't cheap) to produce flaming camels. And even then we need to test their cost-effectiveness.

[@destruction8946]

That might actually be true.

[@CloudCuckooCountry]

“One-hit wonder” god dammit Spirit

[@tanishislam4953]

That was so beautiful

[@benijager1372]

He's a patrician

[@PhatChin]

ya I kinda loved that

[@foreverjune8]

AoM: almost every myth unit and every 4 age hero has a special attack. AoE: 1 boi

[@k0pera]

even there they don't have it against every other unit(heros and other myth unists form 3th age or above) and some of them use it against buildings, walls or just to improve infantry attack.

[@The-jy3yq]

well almost every unit have a kind of special attack bonus welp, leitis obviously is special ... ... .. don't woosh me idiots

[@ejnaygfantzcg]

Well it's a different game form a different age. You can't just add every modern novelty into an old game, or you will destroy it.

[@emilhult3394]

@@The-jy3yq woosh

[@Raiom.]

Age of mythology plays into.. you know.... Mythology. It's a game about using the powers of the gods to obtain success, of course you expect it to be filled with magic and special habilities, while aoe tries to be the most realistic possible, and with the coustelier it is still very easy to understand that bonus realistically, it charges into battle with their weapons ready to poke people to death, and then they have to "rest" to use that powerful but very tiring blow again.

[@Tosnoob]

Total War: Age of Empires, cycle-charging here we go

[@timotius_sdv]

Let's Go

[@karanrime8948]

to pronounce coustillier, imagine you are staging an armed takeover of a fixated Electronic Arts building. that is to say, "coup still EA"

[@khamulthewack4732]

I learned something today. I'm also now going around the house saying it to myself as fabulously as possible.

[@HOBIXpl]

Coustillier It's in the game - Microsoft

[@yahyamusseb]

The more we know

[@cyclobenchaprine]

isn't the double L pronounced like a Y? it's preceded by an i

[@Kernel15]

@@cyclobenchaprine vowel + i --> y or something

[@RedVSBlueIsCewl]

So in a nutshell: the unit is bonkers and everyone is waiting for a nerf 😂

[@cptant7610]

It's pretty insane that they just beat the spearmen line with only 2 charges.

[@RedVSBlueIsCewl]

CPTANT I‘d say at the moment trading a Spearman for 2 charges is the best you can hope for - could also be 2 dead vills or 2 monks lmao. But yeah i get where you are coming from - they are smashing their supposed counter unit

[@fcr8409]

Just like aoeo lancer

[@alfiechampion46]

@@cptant7610 in real life though charging cavalry would convincingly take out the front line of infantry. Once they lose momentum they’d lose power. In an equal numbers fight they should wreck halbs.

[@MrPsilva95]

"How good is the Coustellier?" - Yes

[@JAKEATO]

For the moment

[@MistaHoward]

It's a unit produced only from castles that's weak to almost everything that has a numbers advantage. If they're OP an easy fix is a longer training time and/or cost hike. I don't think they should change anything about their matchup against archers considering they're designed to hard counter archers specifically. That's like suggesting the best way to fix huskarls is to lower their pierce armor. Coustilliers hard counter archers but underperform against melee units without a numbers advantage, which requires massed castles to achieve. Their low training time is the only thing that seems really OP to me.

[@majordakka5743]

*Laughs in Goth*

[@omologo95]

@@MistaHoward ehh, the thing that makes the unit broken is purely how easy it is to get a powerful lead in early Castle Age. It creates a snowball effect from that point, making it hard to keep up. I think a cost increase is the only necessary change tho, coz it's a cool unit otherwise.

[@MistaHoward]

@@omologo95 yeah, that's what I'm trying to say. The unit is only good with that snowball effect, the main issue is that it's too easy to reach critical mass due to the short training time and low cost. I think at most all that should be changed outside those two things is maybe a slight speed nerf to make it easier for knights to chase them down.

[@HistoricalWeapons]

finally the developers are taking notes on total war mechanics

[@florianschweiger6666]

And it is less bugged than in TW :P

[@HistoricalWeapons]

@@florianschweiger6666 depends on the tw. Are you talking about rtw2? Or rtw?

[@googootz8214]

This is bullshit, AOE2 is not Total War, this ones aren't equal

[@HistoricalWeapons]

@@googootz8214 I didn’t say one is superior than the other.

[@insaneweasel1]

OWA MEN AH RUNNING FROM DA BATTREFIERD. SHAMEFUR DISPRAY!

[@michaeltaylor8698]

1:37 I think this illustrates how low the steppe lancer's attack currently is. Definitely overnerfed imo Also, if its OK for coustilliers to be able to one shot villagers, can't steppe lancers get an attack bonus vs villagers so they can also do that? Seems pretty fitting for what is supposed to be the ultimate raiding unit.

[@JacquesCuistot]

I think they should be reworked and given a charge mechanism like the coustillier

[@Orcawarrior2]

The idea of the Steppe Lancer is that several of them attack a unit at once, their individual damage output is supposed to be low. Really I think they should give the steppe rider some kind of horde bonus, where having more steppe lancers attacking a unit increases damage exponentially not linearly

[@michaeltaylor8698]

@@Orcawarrior2 I'm aware of that but their DPS is still too low. They aren't cost effective against knights or any cavalry UU even when they have a numbers advantage, so people don't bother with them, especially in castle age. The steppe lancers' stats improvement over the scout line is not substantial enough to justify spending 45 gold per unit as opposed to a trash unit. So people either go with knight's or scouts, with SL's being forgotten about in the middle.

[@JimCullen]

Steppe lancers are the second last raiding unit? What does that mean? What’s the last raiding unit? Heck, what’s _first_ one?

[@michaeltaylor8698]

@@JimCullen autocorrect. Typing on a phone

[@kesiazezebajki1982]

"I recreated a scene from Lord of the Rings where I had equal resources..." true Tolkien fan XD

[@michaelandreipalon359]

... Where are the godmode archers though? Where are the flying riders?

[@hectorbector11]

@@michaelandreipalon359 Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing?

[@LumosX]

The cavalry should have been konniks though.

[@michaelandreipalon359]

@@hectorbector11 Haha, true.

[@EaglebeakGaming]

It needs to not one shot vills in castle age that’s to devastating for raids

[@vladcalincu6263]

If you can hear the alarm, you have already lost 20 vills

[@tobin9575]

but if you are walled they are a really poor raiding unit due to the fact that they have such low siege damage and you ahve time to mass spear line units, I think the suggestion of lower pierce armor would be a very good nerf to their raiding capabilities while they should settle into a melee infantry and cavalry counter.

[@superstar5042]

@@tobin9575 you cant always be walled, specially when you startibg to build 2nd and 3rd tc, and when you start to overchopping trees.

[@QWERTY-gp8fd]

@@superstar5042 just wall the overchopped areas. palisade wall is just 2 wood.

[@t3n0n79]

@@QWERTY-gp8fd yeah but the time for the player to wall everything and the "idle time" for the villager/s. + pallisade wall is weak.

[@bradleymartinez185]

Just sitting here waiting for sotl to say they’re stupid OP

[@vitaobatera]

HAHAHAHAHAHA but so are Elephants, the Leitis, the Boyar... still they fit well because of their higher price... I'd just incriase it's gold cost to 70

[@tomascanevaro4292]

He was too nice to say it, but he made it pretty obvious 11

[@lbridet]

@@vitaobatera leitis and boyars are countered by monks, and in small groups they die to massed archers. They also trade a lot less well against halbs than coustillier does, and they are less devastating at raiding. Did you not notice that coustillier one shots villagers?

[@bradleymartinez185]

@@vitaobatera my biggest complaint is if you rotate them right and raid, they one shot every villager they touch if you get caught by surprise. Aaaaaaand boom you’re down 10-15 vills just like that

[@anirvankm]

Idea: educe charge damage from 35/44 to like 15/17 while also reducing the cooldown from 40s to 30s. And also a slight nerf to the speed.

[@noahsaxon]

That would just make the unit feel useless, it looks like it holds up horrendously in regular combat pre-nerf. I’d be okay with 18/26 if it was a 20 second-25 second cool down. It’s an interesting take on the unit overall though, I just wish more civs were like this

[@Progeusz]

"most of the time you lose horribly vs coustilliers regardless of what you use but it's theoretically possible to barely win if you use a mass of counter units and opponent doesn't hit and run"

[@Asterix958]

As far as I see, only Goth Halberdiers is cost efficient against Coustillier. Even imperial camel is useless thanks to hit and run. Spirit of the Law did same thing in hand cannoneer vs arbalest video. Hand cannoneer is clearly weaker than Arbalest but he didn't admit in that video.

[@212mochaman]

@@Asterix958 that would be true if not for the fact goth halberdiers get one shotted by the charge attack

[@Asterix958]

@@212mochaman Does goth halberdier die in 2 hit. I guess they are good counter. They can kill bunch of Coustilliers while Coustilliers perform hit and run. In castle age, even goth pikeman can't stop Coustillier.

[@tobin9575]

you just need to either play very defensively for a while because they are not a good unit for pushing defenses, (towers and casltes) and really really mass pikemen. Then find a way to deal with siege. Or look for a civ with really really high melee armor, the low attack of the coustillier in standard will make them voulnerable to teutonic knights, cataphracts etc.

[@212mochaman]

@@Asterix958 the elite coustillier does a grand total of 55 damage before blacksmith upgrades, and they have access to all of them for attack. How much HP does a halberdier have? Because goths dont have any power bonuses, just cost

[@xRnChrisx]

The charge attack should have a longer recovery animation time, maybe 1 to 2 seconds instead of instant as it is now.

[@stevenfrancis2596]

This is actually a really good idea, it would give time for other units to land a couple of shots on them

[@lbridet]

And divide it in half, and don't recharge while fighting, and raise cost and train time, now we start to get toward balanced

[@mikealpha4169]

@@lbridet eh, lowering Pierce Armor and giving the charge a recovery animation should be enough

[@lbridet]

@@mikealpha4169 I don't think a unit should have no viable counters in combat, be cheap, easy to mass, excellent at raiding, and mobile. I'm not sure why you do...

[@houndofculann1793]

@@lbridet lowering pierce armor would already get rid of the "no viable counters" part so I'm not sure why you're arguing

[@rokoi3]

Way back in HoMM 3, the Cavalier/Champion unit did extra damage depending on how many tiles it walked before attacking. Pikemen/Halberdiers were immune, however. I think they should consider doing the same here

[@NocnyMarek5]

Or at least take 15% of the dmg. The charge was always devastating for infantry.

[@LazyLifeIFreak]

Hd counter should be stationery spear line, fully negates the charge.

[@nvmtt]

huh?

[@brijekavervix7340]

@@nvmtt probably means the spears can brace themselves to receive the charge or something. Might be a bit difficult to implement well however...

[@ringofasho7721]

Just make the charge attack do equal damage to the coustillier if it attacks a pikeman

[@troydowns7748]

I completely agree that the spearman line should not take the charge bonus when stationary. I also like the idea of them both taking the damage.

[@brijekavervix7340]

@@troydowns7748 I think that would be an over correction.

[@SephonDK]

Personally, I would reduce their charge attack so the non-elite version can't oneshot villagers with Loom, while having the elite still oneshot it, increase their gold cost significantly (say, +15 or even +20) and remove the anti archer damage bug. I'm less inclined to reduce the training time since they already need a castle to train them, and cavalier will probably be the way to go for castle age Burgundians anyways. The unit is very powerful, but actually quite squishy and honestly awful if you engage in sustained fighting. The unit concept is really, really cool; I don't want it to be nerfed into oblivion like the Steppe Lancer, but there's absolutely no reason to leave it as powerful as it is. It's also very bad against buildings when compared to the knight line, which makes it lose some utility (this is a good thing). An interesting thing is that because of their charge, pikes aren't as good a counter as they normally are. Pikes usually shine in that just getting a few hits in, even vs knights, deals a lot of damage in resources, so to say. That this deals so much nuke damage disallow the pikes from getting the damage int. Most of the units' counters, such as camels and elephants, aren't readily available to all civs. That's a real problem.

[@Duke_of_Lorraine]

I've seen several proposals to nerf it and one is interesting : the pikeman line shouldn't take, or should take much less, damage from the charge attack. Which makes sense since a pike wall is one of the best counter to a cavalry charge.

[@Orcawarrior2]

Actually I think we could take that another way. Have the coustillier damage itself if it charge attacks a spearman line unit

[@Duke_of_Lorraine]

@@Orcawarrior2 I think this would be a bit extreme. The coustillier already takes the huge damage bonus of pikes and halbs. Since there is no way of telling the coustillier not to charge, I don't think punishing it outright for attacking would be right. It's not like if you had a "I have the right to be stupid" button.

[@mrhorney4317]

I disagree. Another cavalry that for once can stand a fight against pike men is a nice change. High hp horse counter units like mams and camals still work well against them, and if you know enough about the game and counters, should realise that beforehand. Also, having any kind of infantry in front of archers will still decimate them as well. Now, the double attack on archers should be fixed, I can agree to that.

[@Duke_of_Lorraine]

@@mrhorney4317 not every civ has camels, pinpoint civs who do and don't on a map and it's blatant. And even bruteforcing them with paladins isn't cost effective. it's an unit that already one shots villagers, monks and most archers, and that has insane raiding abilities. If pikes cannot counter it then what can ?

[@mrhorney4317]

@@Duke_of_Lorraine if you account for resources, pikes actually do counter them fairly well. It's the fact that 1 on 1, which pikes lose against pallies anyway, they get smashed. But when the numbers of pikes are higher, accounting for resource spent, it tips the other way due to the low attack after charge/low hp.

[@lud4079]

Aaaand they got nerfed into the ground

[@LokirofRoriksted]

Lower hp to 70-90, reduce movespeed by .1 and lower it's attack in castle age to 8+30 so it doesnt one shot villagers and reduce 1 pierce armor and it's ballanced. I'd rather fight coustillier than conquistadores any day

[@Duke_of_Lorraine]

At least its charge isn't as strong as couched lances in Mount & Blade...

[@r-60n54]

You get hit with a couched lance! You take 500 damage

[@Duke_of_Lorraine]

@@r-60n54 well the persian elite war elephant won't be killed in one hit xD

[@AkosJaccik]

Lance is one thing, but the moment a cavalry will wield Long Glaive in Aoe2 en masse, the game is done.

[@davidvalderrey9385]

When I was I kid there was another RTS game that I used to play aside from AOE called Imperium. In that game many cavalry units had a charge attack that worked exactly like the costelliers, only that in Imperium the charge attack dealt triple the damage of a regular attack. I wouldn't be surprised if in the next balance patch the costelliers charge attack is adjusted to something like that, maybe alongside a little base damage boost so the unit is not nerfed to death.

[@DUXALMUSIC]

Maaaaan I was really expecting a test vs Genoese Crossbowmen.

[@bomjus1706]

ikr, was hoping for that too. but with the current double damage G xbowmen probably get annihilated in an equal resource trade.

[@ShirosTamagotchi]

they oneshot every archer unit

[@maxschmitt214]

you can watch fights against all units here if you like :D kzbin.info/www/bejne/amSThJycermhfJI

[@Imperiused]

Genoese Crossbows get absolutely destroyed with equal resources.

[@Capoch]

Seems like they need a hotfix asap! Specially bugged against archers / CA that take double damage

[@rodrigosaldana9851]

Decrease the charge time, but make so it only charges when out of combat. that way you get the intended hit and run mechanic.

[@SIGNOR-G]

As in reality

[@MetalKing1417]

Alternatively, only have them charge while in combat, forcing them to use their much weaker normal attack from time to time.

[@jamilzulqiful5435]

Honestly, making it a one time thing and nerf to pierce armour or hp would work well.

[@DavidGuitarIbanez]

A slower base speed that increases with the charge meter. And only charging with movement. That would be ok for me. And would reduce the extra damage of the charge a bit

[@beganfish]

@@jamilzulqiful5435 that would make them literally useless.

[@Calmarius]

The ultimate "DOINK" unit.

[@Piokkoko]

Just stop the charge bonus from refreshing in combat

[@sauromatae9728]

now why didn't steppe lancers have charge?

[@veasnatdm4861]

good question lancer are technically a charger as well.

[@thessop9439]

The knight line should have charge too.

[@onkeltom7657]

@@thessop9439 😆

[@maschinenkrafter7845]

The kind of charge that Coustillers got is literally what should be the staple of Hussars (at least the Polish kind)

[@Orcawarrior2]

@@maschinenkrafter7845 of course the real question is why isn’t Poland a civ? Honestly it’s time for a proper light cavalry civ and I think Poland should have a unique tech to give this charge attack to their hussar

[@Justjustinp]

I wish they lost some movement speed when the charge isn’t up so they can’t just walk away after a charge attack and wait for the charge to come back.

[@burningsinner1132]

Isn't that the whole point of shock unit? It's like canoneers, crap for susteinance. But this first barrage never gets old.

[@samuelcolt7034]

I honestly think that a great way to balance them to be less exploitable would be to give them a speed bonus while their charge attack is active, and have that speed bonus deplete the second it's used. In other words, it forces the charge attack to be used when charging them in, intended to highlight their role as shock troops, and after the fact they can't run off as easily.

[@OutlawEmpire]

bring back the legendary intro

[@darkranger116]

The fact that its a damage boost just does not fit into AoE imho. Getting damage OR armor boosts because the unit fulfills the basic function of Moving, is absurd. It completely undermines the blacksmith and its ideology of being where units get power boosts from. The ability would be better suited as a movement speed buff that procs at full bar charge. Giving the unit a boost of speed for 3-4 seconds.

[@viktorkancler629]

Only video i was expecting since Lords of the West came out

[@poilboiler]

The charge bonus doesn't work against mills? Lame.

[@KyleVeselka]

Tilting at windmills is never advised for a Burgundian who wishes to be taken seriously.

[@horaciogonzalez4284]

They're not Spanish dude.

[@KyleVeselka]

@@horaciogonzalez4284 HAH, yeah good point

[@CG-eh6oe]

This "double dmg vs archers" thing makes me question the amount of playtesting that was done. Its not something that happens on rare occasions, it happens all the time. So testing the unit just once versus a variety of other units will immediatly show the bug. Either they didn't test the unit or they are supposed to oneshot CAs.

[@midknight9327]

Maaybe a speed boost when the charge is up but less speed on average?

[@obsidian5475]

I think to balance them the devs could just do all of the suggested nerfs, but smaller. -0.1 speed, -8 on the charges but +1 regular attack. +5 recharge time on the super charge, +5 food and gold and 20 second creation time(25 in castle age). Then it is a weaker knight that's cost effective against them and good against low HP units. This makes the unit in Imperial Age 145 HP 12+36 attack/ 12+4 attack.

[@124085]

I feel like the charge attack should be affected by armor, along with the suggestion that pikemen take reduced damage from the charge attack so they can serve their role of keeping cavalry in check.

[@JammyBriton]

I imagine they will be nerfed. Just hope they don't get hit too hard as they're pretty interesting My idea for a 1st balance pass would be to: 1). Fix/remove that damage bonus against archers (or just Cav archers) 2). Lower their speed after a successful charge. (Then maybe lower charge rate when moving if still deemed too strong). This means its more risky to dive for quick Villager kills and to endlessly hit and run without penalty unless you're in a good position to do so. Cav Archers still need a buff. (+bonus to lance units?)

[@fromfareast3070]

I think the interesting way is: higher speed when charge bar is full then have much slower speed during the charge.

[@jahrazzjahrazz8858]

yes giving the enemy a chance to punish coustilliers after using the charge would work

[@alejandroromero6464]

Nice proposal.

[@robinbernardinis]

Yeah, they shouldn't be able to retreat from other cavalry while recharging. Being able to hit and run Paladins is ridiculous. I think they shouldn't lose double damage to archers, they should have bonus damage to everything else halved, as well as reducing the charge timer to 20s (but not in combat). This would make them a great counter to defenseless foot archers, but not as strong against everything else, as well as incentivizing using them intelligently as actual charge cavalry.

[@obesechicken13]

I don't think they should be faster than they are now except maybe during a charge. But they should have lower deceleration and turning during a charge. If possible I'd like to introduce bracing so that units that stopped moving (for x milliseconds) and were facing them didn't take the charge bonus or something.

[@jahrazzjahrazz8858]

@@obesechicken13 bro this is aoe2 there is no deceleration or turning in this game.

[@smugshrug]

it's super OP and will be nerfed in to the ground.

[@-Raylight]

4:45 Lol, great recreation *_"That still only counts as one!"_*

[@Reaper_03-01]

Gotta drop the charge attack. I found that elite Teutonic Knights are good, and as my TKs never travel without a few monks, the charge attack damage is easily healed away while the TKs dispose of the Burgundian rabble.

[@alvarotejero4417]

It's funny because in a previous video you spoke about some mechanics that were in the minds of developers of the original Age of Kings but never showed down at the end. One of those ideas that were discarded at the end was the cavalry charge mechanic. I really enjoyed the idea when I heard of it in you video ( I can't remember the name there was like a list of things that didn't make it when AoK was released). The point I want to make it's that when I saw that specific mechanic in that video another RTS game came in to my mind, Imperium 2, where units had special abilities. Some factions as iberians, roman equities and gaul horsemen had an ability to deal 8 times their base damage, but this wasn't overpowered because other units had abilities that counter this cavalry charge thing. Some units just ignore the first hit they get, so charge was useless against them. There was also a unit (the praetorian) that striked back adding a percentage of the damage received, so cavalry could hit them hard but they would retaliate harder. So maybe one way to balance coustilier's(?) charge could be adding new mechanics. Otherwise nerfing the current bonus charge damage sounds like the most viable option to me.

[@ReymonG90]

Is ridicoulus OP, if you want to make it with a very high attack (one shots almost everything) it should have 0 Pierce armor and way lower HP, glass cannon type of unit

[@spacemarine633]

Increasing their gold cost and reducing the charge damage is definitely a good start

[@sidarthurgortimer355]

I really hope they don't over-nerf it and turn it into a unit which is never used. Rather than lowering its charge damage, they should lower its normal damage, letting it keep its specialty while reducing its overall damage output. This would force players to use it only in the right situations and with good micro for it to be effective. If that's still not enough, they could halve its charge damage only against the halb line, making that a more practical melee counter.

[@raspootin7555]

Tree hp or we riot. Stop stalling.

[@TheLeosMind]

Ideas to nerf: 1. Increase his gold cost and reduce his creation time. 2. Reduce his charged attack and his pierce armor. 3. Both.

[@Clairvoire]

Most interesting change would be to reduce their speed to that of infantry while their charge isn't full. It gives the other player warning that the charge is full when they see one at full-speed, and makes attacking risky since the other player can effectively punish it afterwards.

[@varunmanjunath9123]

This. Is. Brilliant.

[@Thibaut_Guerquin]

This is à reaaaaally good starting point of an idea, bravo !

[@jfcariasa]

I think that one shoting villagers is broken... 30 coustelliers that never fight an army but go straight to your eco are a complete gg in my opinion.

[@anmolagnihotri3130]

The concept is good. It's nice that the devs are taking in new ideas and mechanics. The unit would be balanced in the future like Kipchaks and steppe lancers were op when they came.

[@Toastbrot1234567]

Let`s just hope they end up on the balanced side like the Kipchak and not the useless side like the steppe lancer.

[@anmolagnihotri3130]

@@Toastbrot1234567 I hope for same XD

[@BlitzN7]

The unit simply does not belong to AoE2. The mechanics are more of an AoE3 game which i do not enjoy

[@stephanpetri262]

Recharging only if they stand still (real life explanation: Horses need to rest after the charge) could be an interesting concept. That way chasing them would be a counter instead of a waste of units. Otherwise price should go up to counter massing them and making the choice Paladin or Coustillier more prominent. Changing stats could prove a bit tricky, since the unit could easily loose its motive and become a recolored paladin if you lessen the charge and increase the stats, while lowering survivability would defeat their heavy cav purpose.

[@noahodum9737]

Massing them isn't efficient though ): most people I've talked to that have played against the civ have said that if you wall your eco or defend with castles/towers/tc that they pretty much just fall over after af ew seconds.. Following most gold/trash/siege unit comps you'd go what, coust, scouts, ballista/ram? Coust are not very good vs any other gold unit, scouts and coust die to pikes, ballista counters pikes/infantry and sprinkle in some rams to help pressure buildings/walls? They don't counter any heavily armored units, since it isn't enough to oneshot most of them like TK or any ele's.. and their base stats are piss-poor in comparison.. This unit was built to raid, not to be the focal point of your entire army. It feels like they'd be good in small groups of 5-10 that can rush in from the flanks and devastate enough to turn the tide of a battle or to raid eco efficiently but that's about it

[@Qureas]

I'd rather have the charging change to only happen while moving since it makes more sense. So standing still fighting would be useless further emphesizing their raiding ability instead.

[@noahodum9737]

@@Qureas Yeah I'd almost rather them be a one shot hit and run unit than be able to fight at all.. But then again why pick them over knights? In small numbers knights are just as effective, plus the rotation into end game is easier not requiring a castle

[@SirAroace]

If you think its overpowered we can always make it start at 0 and charge with movement instead of time.

[@rambolambo3441]

Yeah just wait and see to get it nerfed to shreds, like the steppe lancer...

[@HeliosExeunt]

0:55 - That's a nice backscratcher.

[@AbdulGoodLooks]

You gotta raid your enemies with style my friend

[@dunndudebemelol]

Hard to mass and in a big fight they aint great, but produced quickly enough to make them situationally brutal, especially against vills

[@noahodum9737]

Exactly. It's like supplies, a noob trap. If you're playing against burgundians and you don't wall appropriately, they can punish you very hard. Hard to see a high-level player looking at this unit and thinking its OP.

[@theaterobscura]

Whew. With a little micro, these things are nukes.

[@NolDragon]

They're quite good looking, that's for sure !

[@CG-eh6oe]

"The fact they [get oneshot] makes monks as a suggested counter not totally convincing". I love that use of "not totally convincing" 11

[@Dragonphoenix25]

Box setup of TKs and monks could do the trick? TKs absorbing the charge and converting Coustilliers safely and healing the TK wall. But I guess no sound player will throw his Coustilliers against that slow moving kill box

[@ChocolateMilkCultLeader]

Early eco upgrades vid when? If you're looking for help with the generation and modeling, let me know, I'd be happy to assist

[@obsidian5475]

Yis.

[@Orcawarrior2]

He analyzed a bit of them during his Burgundian playthrough but that was all off the cuff

[@waterfallhunter9642]

You could say the answer is a bit of "double edged sword" Haha (Coustille=double edged sword)

[@kingbred01]

Haha funny man

[@Innouruk_Prince_of_Hatred]

I am just going to say this, i dont play the game much. But i watch it very frequently and every unit stays in its bounds. This unit, does not care for counters, in a rts that is a big no no. Not the first time they overdo a "new civ" to make the expansion/update appealing, this is a slap into the oldschoolers face who play this game. Back in the days this was not acceptable, only MMOs did that but nowadays every game/genre does that.

[@MadMalMan]

Flaming Camels beat them, Donjons, Towers, Kreposts or Castles keep them well away from eco (or could just wall your eco) Scorpions are good vs them, Cho ku Nu with fodder in front does well, and so does just ignoring them with a mass of troops if they try and hit and run as they require a lot of Micro (40 secs is a long time)

[@edwinpoon]

This unit encourages more micro by player, smack and recharge.

[@AS.47]

My prediction is that they're gonna nerf the coustillier until it becomes completely useless, just like the steppe lancer. It's either gonna be broken or far too weak. Not a fan of the charge attack at all, it just doesn't feel like something that should be in this game.

[@MasterGhostf]

Same, maybe instead give it multiple attack bonuses vs specific troops, and give it less pierce armor. Like maybe give it increased attack against infantry, a little less towards pikes but still a damage bonus. This would imply that its doing shock attack runs, and maybe increase its speed and a little less health. This would make it so it does poorly in a stand up fight, but it can snipe infantry and archers much easier, but be weaker to archers and towers. I think this change would make it far more interesting.

[@AS.47]

@@MasterGhostf That sounds like a very good idea

[@thescribe509]

AOE 3 snare effect on the Coustillier when it hits with the charge, so that afterwords it's much slower and hard to retreat with. I think that's the best solution. Makes it more painful to try to retreat after getting the charge damage in and it otherwise forces the cav to stay committed to the fight, which we understand lowers it's effective DPS quite a bit.

[@meneldal]

I agree, make them stuck in place for a couple seconds after the charge. Still OP when you have the numbers to mop up small groups instantly, but when you're outnumbered you will have time to get countered.

[@nathangamble125]

I think this completely goes against the premise of the unit. What's the point in having this unique charge feature if you can't benefit from it?

[@thescribe509]

@@nathangamble125 You do benefit from it. You just can't avoid combat after using it. Knight charges don't just *turn around* when they hit the fighting line in mounted combat, because they can't. They bury themselves in the line doing massive damage, and then hold and fight.

[@whitehavencpu6813]

idk lol they die quick to Leitis...

[@OtterTreySSArmy]

I think you misunderstand what shock cavalry is. It isn't a DPS unit. Its meant to do one charge, pull back and then rinse and repeat. The point is to open up a hole in the enemies lines for your infantry to exploit.

[@VincentTheGiantEchidna]

6:00 wait, is that 944 hp? I don't play that game so idk

[@michaelandreipalon359]

Well, can't wait for the Serjeants vid.

[@KurtAndresKA]

How good the Coustellier is?*

[@AngDavies]

What about Sicilians? Do they take half charge too? Does that tip the odds?

[@aeth4190]

Probably not. It's not a bonus damage, it's actual damage that lasts for the charge.

[@abyssreborn4213]

@@aeth4190 But it's not coded as regular melee though, since it ignores armor. So it is possible, I think it deserves a test.

[@aeth4190]

@@abyssreborn4213 yes but I think even TK don't have native 15 armor (base elite coustiller post imp is 11+4 I think) So of course it "ignores" Armor when regular attack bypasses it

[@abyssreborn4213]

@@aeth4190 Ooooooh I didn't think about that. Maybe someone should edit an ETK to 100 armor or something crazy in a test? XD

[@mrgongo4253]

People will use it as a elite raiding unit. It only makes sense to me that way

[@noahodum9737]

People talking about building 50 of them and just line charging pikes are gonna find out the hardway that they're small minded with bad macro

[@Grato537]

I like that this unit has a definite unique-ness. I like the idea of balancing by maybe reducing the speed and increasing cost. The reduced pierce armor is something other unique cav units have done so I hope they don't go that route. It would also be interesting to play around with removing the charge against monks so that monks truly are a counter.

[@peterpelle8982]

maybe more creation time and +25 charge attack could be enougth to balance

[@jahrazzjahrazz8858]

jup that sounds fine then already

[@gamesandstuff127]

I would probably increase the base damage a little bit, so the average damage isn't impacted as much.

[@housshil3675]

It puzzles me how hero units such as El Cid or Duke D'Alençon which literally use jousting lances to fight didnt get this special feature, while this unit that seems to use a Glaive/Naginata does. The weapon isnt even designed for frontal schock attacks but rather circular slashing strikes (like the base animation showcases..)

[@Yawyna124]

Almost definitely not a naginata, lol.

[@taowroland8697]

Halbs should reflect the charge cuz its logical grom a physics context.

[@noahodum9737]

It isn't, and historically cavalry were very effective at breaking pike lines. Pikes increase your chances of being able to dismount a portion of the charge but didn't stop a charge dead in its tracks... This is why cavalry were used all the way until WW2 when they were replaced by tanks.

[@taowroland8697]

@@noahodum9737 ok, there's a lot to unpack. Cavalry, historically didn't "charge" pike lines at all because horses are not suicidal & the strength of cavalry comes from mobility. Before the 800's when stirrups became common on the European battlefield, cavalry did not "charge" period, the rushed around the battlefield and then slowed to a trot to engage enemies. Horses will literally stop moving fowards if there is a pike block in front, and throw their riders if goaded forward. The way pikes were drilled made for extremely dense formations bristling with spears which appearedto the horses as a dusty, shiny wall of bodies with thousandsof spears. I would struggle to find a single source where cavalry was used against pikes in a capacity of anything more than a peripheral flanking unit. In fact the Swiss renaissance pike block armies were devoid of cavalry altogether; opting for arquebuesiers (spelling?) And archers sprinkled in. Now cavalry often defeated conscripted peasant armies who were armed with spears, but even then it was more a breaking of morale more than victory due to tangible battlefield success.

[@taowroland8697]

@@noahodum9737 cavalry were used as mobile scouts or transport through swampy or mountainous terrain in the two wws; luckily no one was that autistic as to think cavalry, having a higher profile would be effective against fields of barbed wire & trenches defended with rows of automatic weaponry. Horses were used mostly because they were available and there was a lack of mechanized transport. Tanks did not "replace" cavalry; to say that is to fundamentally misunderstand their respective roles on the battlefield. You wouldn't say the fighter planes replaced archers. New battlefield, and type of warfare, novel battle units to be effective on it. Cavalry were used also, because they were faster than transport vehicles on washed out dirt roads, for the most part until the mid 1940s, and because the European battlefields were a swampy morrasse during fall and spring, horses being capable of carrying or pulling carts of wounded, or munitions in such conditions.

[@Yawyna124]

No. You should not make a unit deal 40 damage to itself if it tries to defend itself before it repeatedly takes 30 damage from the enemy.

[@maelstrumyes3595]

But are they worth the COSTilliers?

[@talkingbtr-82a76]

They are really good for raiding tho Especially considering that they can take out vills in one hit

[@mikealpha4169]

Not if the bases are walled, which they always should be

[@omologo95]

@@mikealpha4169 always is a stretch. Some map gens are horrible for walling

[@mysteriousmoss]

At 5:28 the screen shows that in castle age they take 39 shots and in imp they take 37 shots was that a mistake or do they lose pierce armor in imp?

[@MadMalMan]

Could be due to the Archers getting better upgrades in imp

[@Cipher71]

I think the intention is to actually use them for a cavalry charge, i.e. you have other units engaged with the opponent's army and then have your cavalry charge in to suddenly swing the battle in your favor.

[@noahsaxon]

THEN THE WINGED HUSSARS ARRIVED!

[@Mathemarius]

1:25 So is the unit just a one hit wonder? 😂😂😂

[@ianmielke6754]

I sure like them, but I agree they’re overpowered a little.

[@theotv5522]

Make them more vulnerable to arrow fire so ppl can kite them before they 1 shot.

[@noahodum9737]

walls, are a thing

[@diegeigergarnele7975]

This is the closest sotl ever went to call an unit stupidly OP

[@perrytran9504]

I love how he tried to be balanced when saying they take less arrows to kill while showing 39 vs. 40 for castle age lol

[@diegeigergarnele7975]

@@perrytran9504 aaaand they one shot xbows. In order to make this gimmik balanced they need to nerf it to like +20, nerf the pierce armor to either 1 or even 0, and make them as costly as other cavalry UU (higher than 65 gold). Then they are going to be balanced but rn they are a slightly weaker knight line with an insanely op ability to oneshot

[@buffalosoulja3666]

Since they got nerfed they are a pretty weak civ, obviously the release Coustiller were op. However now they have the lowest win rate (38%) second only to silicians. I think getting earlier Cav/Paladins upgrade is not really a strong bonus as it’s still costly. And with no bloodlines you spend all your resources on getting stable upgrades to be easily out bodied by other heavy Cavs Civs or Halberdiers once your in the Imp age forcing u to switch to another unit like champion/Militia. And with weak skirmisher and weak Hussars you lose to Archer civs I think this would make them a more balanced civ, with a better knight rush powerful like the franks maybe even stronger tho with a higher focus/need on getting relics. Burgundians Cavalry Civ •Eco upgrades available 1 age earlier •Stable technologies cost -50%, Cavalier upgrade available in Castle Age •Gunpowder Units +25% attack •Cavalry +5hp for every relic (+20 total) •Town Centres spawn 2 villagers every age Unique Unit Coustillier (55 food, 60 gold) not 55* Unique Tech •Burgundy Vineyards (Farms produce gold in addition to food, convert all current food into gold) •Flemish Militia (Upgrade all villages to Flemish Militia, Flemish Militia available at TC) Team Bonus Relics generate both food and gold Balancing *Coustiller 135 hp instead of 145 (155 hp max with 4 relics tho) & cost 60 gold instead of 55 *Burgandians were a festive culture so people would migrate there hence the spawning of Villagers (could be balanced to 1 if 2 is op). This gives them a much needed eco boost in early feudal to support their scout rush or map control for relics. 2 extra vils in castle age could mean a faster knight rush. Tho more vils in Imp spawning isn’t to Op, only helps if you do a 4/5 TC Boom *No Squries but increase base speed of Flemish Milita as a Cav support unit.

[@GM_Lemmy]

I think increasing their gold cost and/or production time and removing the bonus damage vs archers would suffice. Honestly, what makes Burgandians unbalanced isn't the Coustillier, but their absurdly strong eco bonuses.

[@mrhorney4317]

This. If we do any reduction of damage, maybe just enough to keep them from 1 shotting archers, nothing else. But I don't think a big damage nerf is gonna be well received.

[@GM_Lemmy]

@@mrhorney4317 True. One-shotting archers and villagers is too much, but everything else seems more or less ok. This video shows they are outperformed by other cavalry units.

[@tis-comics4214]

When they don't destroy my treb in 2secs it would be OK for me

[@stefancristi2493]

That Teutonic knight be like: “Damn, that hurt! It run away tho”.

[@Dragonphoenix25]

Those monks behind TKs are definitely needed for conversions and healing purposes after that charge!

[@onepalproductions]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The coutilier (also coutillier, coustillier) was a title of a low-ranking professional soldier in Medieval French armies. A coutilier was a member of the immediate entourage of a French knight or a squire called lances fournies.[1] The presence of the coutilier is first recorded in a French Ordinance of 1445 [2] The coutilier also had a place in the Burgundian army of Charles the Bold, being described in detail the military regulations of 1473.[3] Coutiliers are also mentioned in the Breton military regulations of March 1450.[4] The rank existed until the early 16th century, when it was merged with and increasingly replaced by the Chevau-léger.

[@gdb1988]

Make them take kickback damage when they charge spears.

[@USAltefore]

What might the outcome be if the Coustillier's charge recovery rate were variable, i.e. recover charge normally while moving, and much more slowly (or even not at all) while stationary? I think it seems cool thematically, but I'd be concerned that it could make the Coustillier rather one-dimensional in terms of strategy if the rates were tuned poorly.

[@poiuttyrfghj8474]

"Definitive Edition" was such a lie.

[@jamerz44]

That's a good thing

[@ivan55599]

HD-edition and Definitive edition should swap places.

[@Pawn2e4]

I always took definitive edition to simply mean that there won't be any more AoE2 remakes