Star Citizen Is Having a PVP vs PVE Crisis

[@MontoyaTEST]

For those pissed off about the state of PVE, give them some time to get the proper game loops in. PVE'rs will be collecting resources and upgrading weapons and armor soon enough!

[@fredashay]

I agree. They just need to get more star systems in the game. Pyro is meant to be for PVPers, no problem there, the rest of us just won't go there, we'll go elsewhere.

[@supasneaks]

Well... they've definitely had a few years...

[@jameslrbrand2002uk]

Unless they have some kind of PvE Slider or solo servers like ED then it'll end up like Division 1 where the obsessive focus on PvP and the constant attempts to force players into PvP killed the game. PvP'ers are their own worst enemy because they drive all the other players away and then complain that there's nobody to play against.

[@jarrodhart3857]

Sure that's great and all but they put the military components in the contested zones loot

[@123TheCloop]

@@jameslrbrand2002uk yup as a TD1 player, ppl dont realise why an exclusive PvP zone just doesnt work and never has, you cannot force PvE'rs into PvP and expect them to stay, its just not for those types of players and when Pyro ends up dead because PvE'rs dont want to touch the mess it will become the PvP'rs will complain and wont realise its because of them

[@stephanmilius3598]

When a grindy and complex game does not respect your invested time, either through bugs or griefers, it will die from this.

[@ThirsttyRecon]

Death of a spaceman will encourage griefing, not discourage it. I don't get why people seem to think making death as hardcore and punishing as possible won't backfire and make griefers more empowered

[@Dracounguis]

Yes they'll get their jollies even more knowing they really put a lasting hurting on some other poor unsuspecting player

[@LargeGamer1]

I'm just gonna say it: their current vision for 1.0 is dog shit and a game I don't want to play. Shit like DOASM should have been thrown out a long time ago. How the fuck do you look at the current game, in it's current state where fighters can be blown up in a matter of seconds (and are fucking INTENDED TO DO SO) and say that insurance should be harsher? That'll be fun, taking out the light fighter only for it to get annihilated almost immediately and then have to waste the next 30 minutes getting it back. They don't play the current game and it shows. Not to mention, all of the other shit like MM that has already pushed some away. I don't hate MM but I also didn't think the old model needed to be changed.

[@DAClarkism]

Death of a Spaceman is the most shit idea that they keep bandying about. Mark my words, they will NEVER implement this, because they have no way to make it work. The only way Death of a Spaceman would work is if they delete all your items on death, including all your ships and swag. Obviously, they're never going to do this, because they don't have the balls, and because it would suck for no benefit. Therefore, any "Death of a Spaceman" they actually implement will really just be a crappy half measure that isn't actually "Death of a Spaceman", but rather, just extra annoyance when you die. If your "ancestor" "inherits" your items, then you don't have permadeath. With permadeath, you either have it or you don't, and CIG won't go there.

[@BrokenImmersions]

When death of a Spaceman comes out, the salt is going to flow like Niagara Falls. These toxic PVE players are going to be in global chat throwing every slur in the book at us.

[@ericwatson9152]

No way unlimited pvp will exist with death of a spaceman.

[@billmacia-0808]

I love both PVE and PVP (I do bounty hunting and right now PVP bounty is terrible), the problem is pirate don't get any punishment for being a murderhobo. I can understand pirating, but killing a dude in a 100i because it's funny isn't pirating.

[@jbirdmax]

Pirate has definitely become a catch all excuse for grefing and trolling.

[@sanctred]

There are few pirates only griefers. How many times does someone get everything destroyed for no reason or gain other than someone found it funny … vs actually raiding, boarding and stealing. The PvP gameplay is just kill everyone and laugh at the pain you caused and fly away.

[@Alpha_Negus]

24hrs in prison is not a punishment?

[@rhadiem]

I honestly don't make much differentiation between a noble friendly pirate and a murder-hobo or griefing bully. It's all PVP. It doesn't matter what the intentions of the player are, they're playing the game how they want to play. It's up to the game system to allow or limit actions, regardless on intent.

[@scislianlongshadow]

exactly

[@ianwilson4286]

PVP is fine but most of the time we just have murder hobos. If a player is just killing weaker players (minners or salvage) with no gain other than being an ass should cause a big rep hit. If I am a minner with good rep with 1 or 2 clans then the murder hobo should lose Rep with them. If they lose access to landing zones or stations even in Pyro, is a good balance.

[@suckonmypokeballs8062]

pyro is literally... lawless.... if you want to be safe, stay in stanton, travel in packs, take the hit on the income instead of the hit on your ship.... not to mention pyro is huge.... almost no one will find you if you dont wanna be found.... its like you dont even play the game...

[@Treecko8O]

They will just use alt accounts if reputation is the only deterrent.

[@ianwilson4286]

@@Treecko8O Yes but Murder Hobo's will have to keep changing accounts. Each time they lose some stuff. I can not see other options.

[@XShadowAngel]

@@Treecko8O Would still deter. Nothing is perfect.

[@Treecko8O]

@XShadowAngel Not really, allot of backers already have alt accounts, what would stop them from keeping one account clean and doing all the griefing on one account.

[@CatalystDestiny]

This game isn't having a "pvp crisis", it's having an unchecked griefer problem. Griefers and PvP'ers are NOT the same thing, something the trolls never focus. Everyone is giving CIG warnings right now about trying to throw in pyro with absolutely zero consequences to griefers who are licking their lips to do everything they possibly can to prevent anyone from doing anything in pyro once it releases to drive away people from playing the game, that is their goal. This isn't warnings about actual game intended piracy like cargo stealing and other such systems everyone expects to be in the game, this is purely and entirely about the uncheck griefer issue of trolls who want to grief people to quit the game and damage the games reputation as much as they possibly can "for the lulz", that's the difference. Honestly though, this is the exact same mistake countless other "pvp mmo's" have made since literally the 1990's, and EVERY single one of them that ignored peoples warnings, all FAILED and DIED, every one. Some others that didn't just shut down shortly after scrape by with player counts in the few thousands trying to call that "good", but everyone knows they're not, it's why they get laughed at and mocked. No one cares at all about the actual game design PVP systems in star cit being properly in like cargo piracy and such, but the simple point of the outrage you see is pyro being thrown in with none of the consequence systems for open griefers. No rep systems, no full bounty hunter systems, no full NPC reputation hostility systems, none of it, it's being thrown out with none of the checks and balances or consequences and yeah it's going to be an absolute clownshow like predicted.

[@stuartburns8657]

Murder hobos go pew-pew 😂

[@Tillman581]

I've had one actual pirate encounter in SC and it was actually some good fun. Negotiated back and forth, I tried to hide some of the cargo, felt good. Pity the other 98% of shit was just minding my business and getting popped with a 'get gud' in general.

[@Glathgrundel]

Griefers don't want to drive people away, they want LOTS of easy targets so they can feel bad-ass without any risk to themselves. Griefers are children who would NEVER go toe-to-toe with the likes of Avenger 1 ... it's all about the baby seals.

[@jimrussell4062]

You solve that by making PvP consent only. With higher rewards if you opt in. Don't opt in and it's PvE by default.

[@randomuserame]

Yeah, I've basically written-off Pyro after the first jump to look around (If I can even traverse Pyro... with all the QT fuel nerfs for small/medium ships). I'm out until they nerf griefing, or add actual bounty-hunting (where are the cuffs?). Any game with "open pvp" potential should balance in favor of lawful, because the criminals generally have an extended impact with respect to what they're able to do via the game's systems. For example, If it's 50/50, criminals can make their "50" stretch much farther than the lawful can with their 50. Which just means a 50/50 balance is actually in favor of criminals when you look at the actual actual impact of that ratio. I'm ok with actual piracy (RP-ing in most instances), but they _STILL_ don't have any real consequences for things like pad ramming, or stream sniping (which is bad for both the streamer, and not fun to watch as a viewer, imo). I mean not really really, they just make a new account if they do get perma'd

[@theMedicatedCitizen]

I get the feeling the majority of players asking for a PVE server are just desperate to experience new content that they pledged for over the past decade or more. They finally have a new system to explore, which is a game loop that has been sadly neglected since the game was playable, and they feel they are unable to due to other players. A lot of people have already had very bad experiences with bugs and game stability, and now players are making that experience worse. Pyro is the PVP system, yes, but PVP was supposed to have systems in place to prevent certain things from happening as often. These systems were not brought into place at the same time as the new content, and people feel they should have been. If you are going to promote Pyro as the PVP place, you need all the systems in place to balance that out for a decent experience. I've done a few contested zones and had a blast. Flew out to a planet to explore and there was so much de-sync when a player showed up in a Mk Ghost that I didn't stand a chance. Same thing has happened at each outpost. I don't mind the PVP, but PVP with that level of de-sync just seems pointless.

[@hanns1401]

We're seeing the vocal players argue this out. But there are people like me who won't bother. We're just going to say SC didn't turn out to be the game for us at this point and move on with our lives. CIG say they want SC to be a game for everyone, but their game design decisions put the lie to that as they shifted from optional pvp via pvp slider to full loot open pvp for all. I still keep my ear to the ground, but I am 99% certain SC will be a beautiful game to watch others play on youtube from time to time, but not something I want to bother with myself.

[@rhadiem]

Kinda like how I listen to the EVE Alliance Tournaments each year, but haven't logged in in like a decade.

[@agakunt]

Stanton is for PvE. Pyro is for PvP. It always has been.

[@ToasterSecks2953]

@@agakunt lol what? it was never that way its always been pvp pve stanton because pyro never existed.

[@CitizenScott]

Why did you think SC would be a different game than they always openly pitched it as? Genuine question.

[@hanns1401]

@@CitizenScott My original comment explained it.

[@fnunez]

Unless CIG does something, Pyro is going to end up as the game's biggest Arena Commander map.

[@notcarson2227]

Go play in Stanton then dweeb

[@JohnFromAccounting]

The cowards can keep out while I monopolise the Weevil Egg trade.

[@greywulf31]

This is what happens when PVE, NPCs, and Solo play have been reinforced as a part of gameplay for many years and then CIG tries to backpedal on these promises because they are having difficulty delivering on their own agenda, not cool.

[@Dracounguis]

In many ways I see CIG using PVPers as a crutch because they are unable to add enough functional NPC bad guys to keep players interested and make the 'universe' feel dynamic and alive.

[@Grimshak81]

Yeah but… I’d prefer less NPCs over too many griefers…

[@lordfraybin]

There are no NPC's to pirate. No convoys to intercede. Only players.

[@the_babbleboom]

as a PVPer, we don't play Star Citizen. who you're talking about is seal clubbers.

[@IrremeableMach]

Bodhi, is right. This has happened to many games and they suffer a slow death. One of the newish games that come to mind is Sea of Thieves. The thing that is missing is consequences for the murder hobos. The only player loosing, as it is right now, is the pve player.

[@MontoyaTEST]

Never played SoT, I know they made PVE servers, how is it working out for them?

[@Billy-bc8pk]

This is completely wrong. DayZ, Rust, and Tarkov are some of the most played games. In fact, Rust is still one of the top most played games on Steam, so people making the argument that this will somehow hurt Star Citizen are objectively wrong (in fact, majority of the top most played games on Steam are PvP games).

[@NomadHorizon]

​@Billy-bc8pk DayZ, Rust, and Tarkov are all PvP games almost exclusively. There are no options for PvE or single-player in those games. You are forced to play in a PvP server 100% of the time.

[@rhadiem]

@@Billy-bc8pk Tarkov is different than Rust. Yes there is loot loss, but you don't have PVE players in Tarkov. If you know of one, they're unicorns. Your investment is much lower too than losing a base like Rust/Ark. Rust can have PVE only players, but that's occurring on private servers for the most part. Same with Ark. Public servers are a bloodbath and run away PVE players.

[@Billy-bc8pk]

@@rhadiem There are PvE players in Tarkov, but they just accept the PvP because it is a PvPvE game identical to Star Citizen, and still one of the most played games in the genre, peaking at over 200k concurrent players. The reality is that people simply want to deny reality to try to forcefeed the idea that it's a design that cannot work, when in reality, when designed well, it can and does work and makes for one of the most consistently played and highly popular experiences on the market today.

[@kobeathris4552]

The problem as I see it is the 90/10 world doesn't exist yet. PVE is safe, except when it's not, because there are no NPCs trying to kill you in dangerous space. There are also no NPCs protecting you in safe space. There are ALSO no NPC targets for pirates to have something to do when they can't find a player to attack. If you see a ship almost anywhere in the game right now outside of a mission, 99% of the time, it is another player. NPC ships will provide some cushion between players who want to hunt and those that don't want to be hunted.

[@jimrussell4062]

There ARE NPCs seeking to kill you. I've run into them quite often. It's just that in Stanton they are rarer because they're supposed to be rare... it's a patrolled UEE system. And there are NPCs to kill in game. Bounties, etc. The 90% NPC thing isn't in game true... but there's also a limit. If half the player base want to be pirates, that's just not supported. Prosperous economies just don't work with that much crime. If you want a "realistic" economy, then expect players and NPCs to just avoid any too dangerous areas as well as harsh response from the authorities. Right now PvP is far too rewarded and encouraged by CIG. It makes too MANY "pirates" and criminals, which leads to an economic crash. Ask yourself how much you'd have to make to move to and open a business in Somalia. Would you do it for twice as much as you make now? 5 times? 10 times? Pyro is worse than Somalia, since even there the locals care at least a little bit about their personal safety. When there's basically no real punishment for death and everything to gain from killing people and stealing their stuff "for fun"..... it'd be much much worse than Somalia. Now compare that to opening a shop in a well policed area. Less profit, but it's VERY rare to be a victim of crime. The same has to be true in any game that wants a "dynamic economy" based on 'realistic choices."

[@randomuserame]

Agree, the game needs more NPC "patrols" even if they don't have that "quanta" system they were talking about before. Just pre-bake it in until you can give them routines that actually impact markets/economy. All NPCs are "sleeping" until you attack them (UEE/police) or until you're in range (pirates/criminals/certain LZs) and it just makes the game feel dead.

[@stefanw2500]

I'm a pve player at heart. But SC was supposed to have npcs, nine per player. Which isn't in. And this shifts the game over to pvp. But that is not the goal, or end goal. They need to up the security and then tune it down later.

[@senn4237]

This is a big part of the problem. The moment they shifted from huge NPC driven universe, to a smaller player/org based universe, this became the writing on the wall.

[@stefanw2500]

@senn4237 There were never a huge NPC driven universe! So we were never there! But we need to get there for PvE and this game to shine. Right now its been as it's always been, PvP. But now there's actual loot and more players with the server migration. Which makes this unbalanced right now. With full loot PvP it's a problem. Why do the hard work, when you can kill someone who already did it? We need the NPC and security to bloom.

[@nathanforrester5140]

PvE money pays for the game. They just need to stop spawn points camping and jump point camping. That will help a lot.

[@Glathgrundel]

Definitely need a secure zone around the Pyro end of wormholes. Crime-stat, cannot approach the Jump Gate (so cannot go through). Unlawful players will have to use 'wild' jump points to get into Stanton. Players coming into Pyro will have a safe haven to set course or to refuel before venturing into the lawless areas. Traders coming from Pyro (even with a crime-stat) can sell goods at the Pyro Jump Gate Complex and others can take it from there into Stanton for a profit. Coming the other way, freighters can bring bulk cargo into Pyro and then more well armed freighters can take it further, also making a profit.

[@randomuserame]

Honestly, they should have added Transient jump points with "permanent" jump points just to at least deal with gate camping. If they're not going to do this, then making a MASSIVE armistice/invulnerability zone around BOTH sides of the gate. All non-universally-hostile faction LZs in Pyro should be armistice for now minus XT/Splicer LZs, and later just make them local shields, detached from the base building shield relay system. This is necessary until they get NPC police up and running, as well as BH and PROPER security/mercenary escort contract gameplay working (which needs more players, and the ability for groups/orgs to accept instead of just 1 person contracts vs potentially a whole org of campers)

[@ONI09100]

@@randomuserame they could set up defenses where you jump in but if you mess up the jump you get fed to the pirates just out side the protected zone lol. it would be funny to see all thos red markers waiting for someone to fuck up

[@protoni6996]

there should be area where you can't shoot or something near jump point and stations. i know it's annoying and i don't think it's right but otherwise it's lawless area i really don't get why everyone think it's all sunshines and rainbows. and people should be happy that now they can do way more secure their pve things on stanton bc most of pvp guys are in pyro. there are always few bad apples but not everyone just try to ruin people's day. but if we are in ptu and missions and rep is almost non-existed obviously people want then just do pvp etc. i try to be fair there but how tha fukk i know who is attacking me and who's not, so i almost have to think everyone is. but all starter ships and mining/salvage ships i have automatically leave alone. also calling every pvp guys all kind of names in chat definitely boost killing. so people should think about that too and not just ask daddy Chris to help stop pvp fully.

[@KiithnarasAshaa]

An important element of this is that CIG are actively taking away standard military and stealth components from all shops and locking them behind open-PVP content (which itself takes hours and isn't all that fun without the PvP part); PvP content that is based on pirates somehow getting a hold of "non-commercial" military-grade hardware and stealth gear, but stuff that major corporations somehow can't sell even though they make it. It doesn't make sense from a balance standpoint, and it doesn't make sense from an immersion standpoint. If the gear the Contested Zones were handing out were "customized" special variations on standard gear, a kind of "sneak peek" into the kinds of things Crafting can produce, that'd be sweet and awesome. The problem is that they are taking away the "good" gear and giving it out piecemeal to players who are well organized and grouped up. It's a classic failure point of so many "open pvp" MMOs that have come before and CIG are making the same mistake again.

[@Tekjive]

Yup, this is my main gripe, nothing seems logical, especially since we now have actual pirated Ardor weapons …seems like a lazy forced move …getting cliché at this point :/

[@Daraki808-bp1vk]

Players who are well organized and grouped up will always have the advantage, tho, no matter what game you're playing. Just get friends and git gud?

[@rayspace373]

@@Daraki808-bp1vk This is a typical response. Git gud, Git freinds, If the game doesnt cater to all play styles and solo and group play then you will have an exodus of people from the game to new games as they come online. The PvP community is a tiny and very loud part of the community. I can tell you right now that without any PvP at all this game would thrive. With murder hobos roaming free and ganking people for no in game reason but that it makes them feel good will quickly turn off players whom want to experience the game and not the pain that Griefers and yes despite the PvP community insistence their are few or no griefers, the vast majority of the PvP interactions I have had has been as a helpless cargo ship trying to land or take off. Nothing PvP about it, I cant fight back, I cant land at a starport with defenses bristling around them and do so safely because the defenses are useless and the time to death is so short we might as well be playing call of doodoo.

[@grygaming5519]

@@Daraki808-bp1vk Except its not a thing of git gud...its poor game design from every aspect of game design. You do not put item X in a place known for where the wolves lurk. A good example, a rare pickaxe used to gather material is placed in a zone that is a known PVP zone. Yet the development team puts this pick axe that has zero necessity to PVP players but is needed for PvE crafters. The Dev team wants both sides to mix, but what is created is a baby seal clubbing experience for PVP players who go out of their way to ignore other PVPers and gank the mid level, mid gear PVE player. Eventually word gets around and the PVE player just ups and ignores the zone. Now the PVP players go racing to the forum screaming "dead game" because all their content decided to not bother with it, and just save up to buy the over priced pick axe from one of these PVPers. That's the fate of Star Citizen right now as it stands. Eventually those who do not want to deal with PVP will just ignore the PVP zones. Wait for PVP players who need money to pay for the item on the market board and go about their lives. At the same time the PVP players will scream about how Star Citizen is a dead game because PVE players choose to ignore PVP zones and move around them. Generally speaking PVP players want to win at the game, not play the game so they choose to punch down given any chance.

[@Dracounguis]

Yes CIG is being very lazy with making exclusivity. Instead of making a fleshed out reputation system and creating unique rewards, they're just picking the pre-existing good stuff and putting it behind some PVP events because they want to force people to do that event.

[@rhadiem]

I think it's fair to say most players are 75% PVE, 25% PVP. I want PVP options, when I choose to go to a risky space. I don't want it when I'm chilling and not in sweaty PVP mode. Although I'd say the same about combat in general. I don't want to be AFK and attacked in a safer area by a random patrol of PVE marauders either. I want to go to risky areas to be at risk. It's a choice.

[@I3ladefist]

Very reasonable, that's why we have armistice zones (which can be exploited too).

[@andrewboyer7544]

​@I3ladefist there are no armistice zones currently. Only people they hurt are folks who want to defend themselves. The murder hobos all exploit them.

[@randomuserame]

AI blades/NPC crew is WAY too popular/demanded for SC to have mostly PVP mains. The popularity/demand for the feature is plain-text evidence that most people are solo, and solo players generally don't gravitate towards PVP as often as orgs/groups.

[@mracicot]

But, @rhadiem, THAT’S THE POINT. You describe something that doesn’t exist when you say, “I don’t want to be AFK and attacked in a safer area by a random patrol of PVE marauders either.” PVE players don’t go looking for players to attack. Even when grouped and they have safety of numbers, they generally stick to what they grouped up to do, whether that’s mining, salvaging, cargo running, or bunkers. When there are new resource gathering loops, PVE players will group to do that. By and large, they play and want to be left…well, maybe not alone, but certainly left unmolested. My hopes are: 1. Stanton gets a security rework to make PVP so costly to hostile players that they’ll just pack up and take their shenanigans to Pyro 2. The resulting safer Stanton gets a salvage/mining/bunker rework to make those loops profitable for single and group PVEers 3. But at the same time, Pyro is built with even better rewards than Stanton to entice more adventurous PVEers to make groups and try to survive the elements and the hostile forces (players and NPCs alike) PVEers often say that there should be at least an understanding between players that purely salvage or mining ships should be left alone or at least RP’d (I.e., not blown up just for being there), but that kind of expectation relies on a gentlemen’s agreement of the rules of engagement…and lets face it, many in the PVP community are in it for pretty explosions, not honorable behavior. I know I find it maddening when I’m in a Vulture, just about the least capable combat ship in the game, and PVPers,want to fight. Why? What gain? Bragging rights that they, in their modded F7C, “took down a Vulture”?? I could understand it if my hold was full of eggs, but not when I’m empty and just scraping my first layer of RMC off a blown apart Cutty Black… If CIG wants a single universe, they are going to be forced to address security and balance soon or risk losing players. I can see the 4.1 patch name: “Law and Order: Universal Rules”.

[@0Metatron]

It IS A CHOICE, go to pyro or don’t go to pyro. The problem is FOMO crybabies wanting everything in the game to be just for them and whinge and whine when content is created for someone with different tastes

[@ScruffyMisguidedAndBlue]

The whole point of the game is encapsulated in its name - Star Citizen. It is about being a citizen of the stars, being part of humanities expansion in space and living in a simulated society. IRL, if there was a country that was a hellhole anarchy where anyone could and would kill you on sight as soon as you go there, guess what - nobody would go there. So in a video game people play for fun, why is the most important update we have had to the game going to be to a lawless hellhole of a solar system?

[@sorcyclone]

I would not put faith into CIG being aware of much of anything with other MMOs. The more powerful crafted gear/ships, upgrades, and all that stuff that makes griefing easier is going down the same path that killed those MMOs to begin with. Elite's open mode has the same problem. If you don't have a maxed out engineered ship, you're going to have a bad time. I don't like it because the devs decided one day that they wanna make Rust in space, which is absolutely not the game I backed.

[@MontoyaTEST]

You think that the new, younger devs may have missed on the lessons from the older games? Its possible.

[@sorcyclone]

@MontoyaTEST That's entirely possible, for sure! There's enough older people on the team that should know and understand it, though. They need to stop the young devs from turning the game into space Rust.

[@Dracounguis]

I thought player skill was supposed to be the determining factor in Star Citizen. But now all they talk about is crafting. Which to me sounds silly because this isn't some World of Warcraft character swinging a hammer 3 times and making a magical sword. Unless we're saying Star Citizen has Star Trek type replicators, the most a player should be able to do is tweak an existing piece of equipment. You go buy a new engine from Chevy, you add a purchased supercharger to it. You don't craft the Chevy engine from a pile of steel scrap!

[@Grimshak81]

@@Dracounguisyou still have to aim and hit with that crated super gun though. Skill also shouldn’t decide everything (and they never said at CIG it would or should be by the way), it should always be a factor and >if circumstances are equal< should be the deciding factor. Otherwise in a less powerful ship a win against a tougher ship is >possible

[@the_babbleboom]

you know what these liars really hate? when you call what they did a lie, even when you can point right at it. that pisses them off so much.

[@billmccoy8232]

Played a lot of PVP in my time in New World (nearly 4k hours). It was fun but sometimes you just want to turn it off and go chill with the guild, do some chest runs, instances, whatever. It would be nice to have an opt-in/out for SC. Especially since it's so cumbersome to get back into whatever you were doing once you die. Also the risk of losing much/most/all your savings and ***TIME*** to a pirate while cargo hauling is just terrible. Also stuff like "decorating" your ship's interior -- why, if you're just going to get blown up and lose an hour worth of set-building. 9 times out of 10 pirates in SC are just doing it to be assholes. It's not like they're going to risk coming out to the wreck site to tractor 100 boxes. They only did it because they KNEW they had the advantage of first move, superior firepower/maneuverability, etc. No good pirate is going to initiate a FAIR fight.

[@rclines001]

The problem is, just like in Elite Dangerous, it's really hard to escape in most scenarios now with master modes.

[@festersmith8352]

I have escaped every scenario in a Vulture. At least a dozen of them.

[@Dark_Icarus]

Again?, no way, we already explained in the last 10 years that SC is in certain areas of the galaxy very dangerous and EvE like on unsafe areas you must avoid, or go in fully prep for combat.

[@splurg123]

Exactly this. Pyro is and always has been marketed as null sec. Now people want to act all surprised that crime is happening there. Hopefully as more sectors release people will find there are other sectors that suit their minimal PvP playstyle, but then they will be upset if the minimal reward matches the minimal risk.

[@819ANT]

the problem is the systems are not there yet. there is no punishment for the people griefing and its that balance between pvp and griefing that's a big issue. myself no issue with actual pirate gameplay my issue is opening the hanger doors and a size 10 flying in before i even get to take off.. or the idiots camping the jump points just going free fire on anything that moves. I don't want DayZ in space. took me 8 attempts to actually land on bloom to get out and explore without getting exploded right away.. i got exploded soon after like but i at least got to land.

[@Billy-bc8pk]

That's why the torps are now super expensive. Also, if you don't want DayZ in space, DO NOT go to Pyro.

[@Tillman581]

@@Billy-bc8pk folk just blow up their own ships and claim them. They don't pay for torps. They did for like three days and they bitched so hard CIG walked it back. And your acting like this shit will all just magically shift to Pyro when it drops. It won't. These people don't want PVP, they want to grief and get their jollies off. Their prey isn't going to Pyro, especially with that attitude.

[@Tentacl]

They had this issue since day 1, they basically imagined PvE players wanted to be content and prey to the "real" players for some reason.

[@alexparris7769]

PVP being a risk at all times is one thing, but locking all high tier components and all new content behind a pvp barrier is justifiably infuriating. I get that pyro is meant to be dangerous, but honestly i feel that CIG shouldn’t have released pyro until nyx was also ready so that the murder hobos and consummate pvpers would have their new playground and all the PVE players that have been waiting just as long for some new content can have nyx (less lawful but not lawless). As a mostly pve player who dabbles but hates being forced into pvp, i feel like this last 5 years has been such a tease yet everytime i travel to some unmarked derelict outpost or npc settlement to check it out for the first time i get murder hoboed within seconds of landing, ganked as soon as i drop out or come back out of the building and get smoked. And considering it takes 20 mins minimum to get back up and running, there is nothing beyond the novelty of new sights drawing me to pyro… it sucka waiting this long only to realize “ohhhh none of this is for me” and have to wait another year or two for the content we have all been waiting for

[@suckonmypokeballs8062]

"high tier components".... youve never even looked at the stats, just the grade a..... "everytime".... lies, its for the first week and thats it or youre getting hit by a cutty black npc ship. "novelty of new sights".... then dont go, pyro opening will save you from the pvper's.... you're just suffering from social anxiety and dont wanna make friends. you could pve with randoms in any number of orgs and be fine....

[@jimrussell4062]

Should be the opposite. You should get better gear from GOOD rep with someone, like the UEE or a Security force or Hurston Corp or something. Like only people in the Civilian Defense Force can buy/use Hornets and Polarises or get the best guns. Then there's a reason to BUILD reputation with them... and a RISk if you lose it. If you become a criminal, the UEE will definitely come hunt down the criminal in the Polaris first before a criminal in a Cutter. Can't repair either except in Pyro...where "stolen" parts cost much more.

[@Glathgrundel]

Same here.

[@JohnFromAccounting]

Nobody is forcing you to have the best items. They’re locked behind contested zones and that’s fine.

[@TheWhiteRat1]

I was blown to Hell by an F8 while making my final approach to Pyro Gateway during the Phase 4 of the Save Stanton event, there was no way the tosser could have hauled away or pirated my cargo. This was a malicious act of griefing. I don't see how the ability to collect your own resources or upgrade your own weapons is going to prevent this kind of behaiviour in future at all.

[@rhadiem]

PVP and PVE has lots of room to play in a 100 star system universe. But when you wait a decade for a second star system, and you can't see the new content because you're being gate-camped, it's bad game design when you are mainly being funded by old Space Dads who just want to go play with their internet space ships in peace. Culling down to a very small number of systems is going to put a huge strain on the PVE vs PVP community. EVE makes it work by being known as the most toxic PVP game on the planet. Ultima Online, way back in the day, broke the game by changing the game into dedicated PVP and PVE zones. Other sandbox games that offer non-consensual PVP are basically being held up by private servers like Ark. Rust is another sandbox PVP game which is known as toxic and has few PVE only players. There have been a few PVP sandbox MMO's released but I forget their names because they flopped pretty quickly. It's not a genre with great success.

[@mr.u3078]

in the end, pve people probably wont play a game with forced pvp, if they want to reach both audiences, then they need to adress this, something like war mode where you get additional pvp oriented rewards for being enabled for pvp when doing missions perhaps?

[@Dracounguis]

Even when people at CIG talk about PVE events, the talk inevitably just turns into how those players will have to dodge PvPers. Turning the miners or salvagers into sitting ducks for the PvPer's entertainment. So it's not really a 'PVE event'.

[@MontoyaTEST]

That is a good point. What PVE event have we ever had where somebody does NOT come along and snipe you?

[@QuannetSingLeaf]

Best stuff are gate kept behind PVP Pyro. Murderhobos are freely bullying, massacring everyone with no consequences. Not to mention the game is buggy and laggy AF. It's too much stress playing this damn tech demo already. Most of us casuals don't want more stress from PvP

[@StrangePass3rby]

The frustration of being pirated is because you know you have to do those redundant works again: getting up on medbed, get of the robe, take on the base, claim your ship, call the elevator, wait, pay for the expedition, retrieve your ship, get on ship, call the station and leave. When the server is good it could be fast. When no, it can takes up to half a hour. And you don't know what else is waiting for you out the space. 30K, sudden explosion, etc. A normal cycle of PVE gameplay is not guaranteed and not reproducible as well as PVP gameplay. I admit it is an alpha test, but we are also talking about something that is temporary for gameplay right now. So a simplification of useless steps and better server will help PVE players more. My opinion.

[@whatthefraggaming4452]

Games have been trying for decades to figure out to do this sussesfully in an mmo and almost all games that attempted it changed or failed completely. Forced pvp alienates players who dont want it they end up frustrated and quit which drasticly reduces funding. Eve has never had a high consistantbplayer base becuase people hit the wall of go pvp or stop advancing. For years they have average 15k players but there is almost no new players and most that join quit. SC is a massive time investment and loosing hours of time and effort to the whims of a stranger with a torpedo to waste will lead to mass exodus. CIG can easily accomidate pve players by wide spreading the armitice zone. Pvp can play on one server pve another with no negative side affects to pvp since pve players will leave the game over griefing. Cig will maintain a much larger player base this way. No pvp is going to be pissed he could kill some one he never knew exsisted.

[@JohnFromAccounting]

It’s not forced PVP. It’s really easy to avoid it.

[@whatthefraggaming4452]

@@JohnFromAccounting forced means u don't have a choice this is forced

[@madcatandrew]

The problem with SC and PvP is how broken the game frequently is, introducing insane meta. The last PvP player my friends and I ran into killed all 3 of us because missiles were unavoidable, guaranteed 1 shot kills on every ship in the game, and countermeasures were broken, so it was just a game of who shot a missile first. Didn't matter that I raked him with 5 guns for nearly 10 seconds, he just flew away and shot a single missile. Then the shotguns did over 1,000 damage per pellet and any Cutlass could kill a Hammerhead in under 5 seconds with a turret gunner. Now all it takes is a Fury snub to instagib a full health Polaris by ramming the landing bay doors on top, because of a physics bug. Next month it will be something else janky, broken, and being used to abuse other players until they give up on this game.

[@FlaviusUrsus]

The issue is Stanton still has no consequences for crime, prison and CS are a joke, and they removed content from Stanton to funnel people who don't want to engage with PvP in Pyro.

[@platiuscyndar9017]

To be honest - I am deeply worried about this conception many players and yes, also CIG have that players will play the game because it is there. If I have to go play PVP to get my military grade components, and I have to go play PVP to do xyz thing, and I'm just not good enough to keep up? Which, I'm not... I'm either not going to bother with the military grade components, or I am just not going to bother with the game. Getting repeatedly blown up with the sort of penalites openly associated with deaths in this game is not fun, it is not entertaining, it is nothing but frustrating. And what these PVP-centric players seem to not realize is that I am not alone. Most PVE players think like this. If it's too difficult, just don't bother. It seems the PVP-centric playerbase seems to believe that if they just make it non-optional people will do it even if they die doing it over and over again. But matter of fact is... people play games for fun. And that is not fun. And like, elite dangerous is right there. They JUST started giving it proper updates again, too. And in that game, I can absolutely go and just play in private sessions.

[@First_Chapter]

Quoting Chris Roberts here: "These encounters could be with an NPC or a live player(s) and are sorted on skill level and also - which is important to all of you who like a more single-player experience and don't want to deal with griefers - based on your player-versus-player (PvP) preference". [Source: RSI website; ID 12770; "Chris Roberts on Multiplayer, Single Player and Instancing"; November 11, 2012.] To any who say this is ancient and things change the response is that real, hard-earned cash was forked over on the basis of such writings. SC 1.0 could be another five years away. Those who back now based on what is written today can just as easily have the rug pulled just as historic backers have experienced in some cases.

[@Narueen]

The alpha version is a test bench for the game. For us to get to the release in this century, we need to test it, try to break it and report bugs. Can't really do that in Pyro for the apparent reason of being killed every time for no reason. Everything we do in alpha is meaningless until 1.0. Prepare for a long alpha.

[@Czecher86]

There will be PVE only severs/ instances bcs there are 3times more pve players and game can work well without pvp...sae with solo players which own most of the ships.

[@HorthornNZ]

Going by the number of WOW servers (before they hid the numbers) it is about 4 times as many PVE to PVP.

[@MaLcH10R]

there wont.

[@stratvids]

Nope won't haopen

[@HorthornNZ]

No disrespect to @MaLcH10R and @stratvids but neither of your replies meant anything - could you please reread your comments and try again. As a long time WOW player I believe what I said was correct.

[@stratvids]

@@HorthornNZ what's so hard to understand? There will never be pve only servers. The devs have stated this multiple times

[@rpscorp9457]

Theres hardly any PVP players but even so, Im 40+ I cant camp a gate for six hours now...nor do i want to deal with PVP people.

[@checkyoursixgaming]

Pvp in a persistent live service game based on progression systems that can be blocked by pvp is ALWAYS a bad idea. Every game that has done that has died. Every single one.

[@g8trdone]

PVP is fun! Blowing up ships on the ground isn't PVP. PVP is fun! Getting 31 SCU of waste loaded on the elevator and being shot in the back before you hit the button isn't PVP.

[@Dracounguis]

Yeah people forget the 'verses' part. I consider PVP two people engaging in combat where both have a chance of winning. Some unsuspecting person delivering a box being sniped from 100 yards isn't PvP. 🤦

[@mopojopo2]

@@Dracounguis Piracy is intended gameplay loop since the beginning though... which means sniping someone who is loading up his ship with cargo is indeed pvp and is indeed intended gameplay of the star citizen universe. Always was and always will be.

[@g8trdone]

No self respecting pirate is stealing 31 SCU of waste. And nobody did. I laid there dead long enough to report for a friend who came in low and killed everybody.

[@RandomNobody510]

If you die to a player that’s called PvP you can get upset but that’s literally what it is. Adapt and over come…. analyze mistakes, move on, and get better.

[@dvgese]

The company presumes that people will behave. That all people will play with some sense of good “sportsmanship”. The reality is that if people can behave badly without consequences most people will choose to behave badly.

[@lecentral3266]

The PVP / PVE balance is simple.... CIG HASto come back to the first and original vision they lose this year with the 1.0 presentation..... THe universe MUST be a living universe full of NPC (remember 90% NPC vs 10% players) where economy , ship crafting is lead by NPC not the player... and that we encounter most of the time event in no law zone on NPC and not only on player.... and where PVP is a possibility in the game as encounter....not a must have to do. Big PVP event should be possible in limited zones in zero sec system not in the entire system... THAT was the vision of SC during ytears and years....until....THIS YEARS and 1.0 presentation= that is the only solution. the 180° of CIG to make SC a FOCUS only player game is the big mistake....

[@grymrammsolkbyrt6203]

I can see this issue, the main factor of it is that CIG is bringing in features without the other intended and needed features to make the balance. Pyro is good on paper with their persistent reputation.......but that feature isnt here yet, so effectively the risk reward towards being a pirate and/or murder hobo is not there to balance this. Unfortunately I don not see Pyro hitting the way CIG hopes without this feature in and I can see this getting very heated in the meantime.

[@atonyharding]

I'm getting a kick out of this just don't go to Pyro narrative and wait for Castra... people do realize you have to go through Pyro to get to Castra. And it yet again PvP players can go where they want without fear of any repercussions right now and PvE players have to restrict themselves to their little corners and be happy with it.

[@wun1gee]

The problem is that if they're going to put all of the best gear behind a PVP wall, the only people who are going to get it are the sweaty try-hard PVPers which just widens the gulf between PVPers and their victims... You can say "Yeah but in the future"...but any of that is years away at the very least. Until there is a player market or a way for players to obtain that same gear outside of PVP, it should not be locked behind a PVP wall. That is insanity and benefits nobody except the hardcore PVP minority at the expense of literally everyone else... I mean what do you think is going to happen when you give the murder hobos all the best gear and absolutely no consequences for using it against players who have no chance to be anywhere near as well-geared as they are? This is ridiculously poorly thought-out. A player market would go a long way in making this better but they haven't even talked about that in forever... An absolutely core mechanic of most MMOs is just not here and they have the nerve to start locking out top-tier gear behind PVP walls?

[@CptFugu]

Not to mention that crafting, the way they plan to do it, is likely to end up producing some totally unbalanced monster builds. Those will be likely in the hands of people with too much time on their hands, or tied to big orgs with the resources to pull them off.

[@shield-sc]

Pvp is a small percentage of players. If they continue to cater to them the game will have fewer players. Its happened in every mmo. Eve, as a long time player, isn't a successful story. No successful MmO have ever merged the two successfully. We need a slider. Turn on off

[@kishkin8743]

The only crisis is for CIG when the PVE players won't want to leave Stanton.

[@Glathgrundel]

My ONLY interaction with Pyro will be when I transit through it on my way to Castra.

[@jimrussell4062]

Already done.

[@Dracounguis]

Yes I'll be glad Pyro exists because all the PVPers & murder hobos will migrate there. Personally my plans for Pyro is to visit to look around once or twice and then stay in Stanton.

[@CptFugu]

@@Dracounguis Don't count on it. They will be back to Stanton once they run out of easy marks on Pyro.

[@sleepfishl]

Well... I hate PvP with a passion... and I have no sympathy for gankers or pirates ... BUT ... I just don't go to Pyro and keep Living in the Aaron halo. No reason to go bitching on Spectrum. The only thing that kinda makes me mad is their plan to allow weapon usage in Nav-Mode .... which removes the option to run away completely. But right now in this moment it's just the simple choice: Go to Pyro or not. ... easy.

[@Billy-bc8pk]

This./ Thank you. You hit the nail on the head. All these people whining and crying just need to stay out of Pyro.

[@kishkin8743]

I agree with this. As the game is more fleshed out I am going to be living on the fringes of space and playing the non-combat loops. I'm playing the game for the loops and could care less about pvp.

[@sanctred]

I don’t agree, griefing in Stanton is bad with no consequences for randomly killing everyone for no reason.

[@Billy-bc8pk]

@@sanctred There are consequences -- and less than 3% of all player encounters in the game involve PvP. So what actual griefing happens in completely miniscule compared to all of the other player interactions that happen. It's basically a rare thing that occurs and the people that it occurs to blow it way out of proportion by seeking validation for their anger about having their solo-hero immersion disrupted in an MMO by another player.

[@sanctred]

@ well the other day when I spent two hours in my vulture only to have a a random dude unload all his missiles on me destroying me and all my salvage didn’t feel minuscule. I like how pull random stats out of your ass like you have a clue.

[@Dracounguis]

Prevent griefing... CIG can't even make prison a deterrent because it's too easy/fast to get out. The serious griefers will just have alt characters sitting in prison ready to give them merits to buy their way out.

[@BrokenImmersions]

The only way to prevent griefing is to learn how to defend yourself or escape.

[@supasneaks]

I honestly don't think CIG is considering the experience in other MMOs very seriously. There is a lot you can learn from an actually successful full loot PVP MMO like Albion Online. The bulk of the player base stays in the safe zones which are tiers I - IV (dictating quality of rewards and materials). Anything above tier IV is subject to PVP. The highest tier is 8 and these are "black zones". You are always flagged for PVP here and there is no reputation consequence for killing other players. These zones have the best quality materials and rewards. They are often patrolled by groups of at least 2 players, hunting for players that are alone. They only take fights they know they can win, obviously. When you are killed in these PVP zones your gear is dropped on death (there is some nuance in tiers V - VII that I can't recall as I haven't played in a few years) So, no one runs around with gear higher than tier V. Anything above that becomes way more expensive to replace. The game ultimately devolves into mega guilds competing for territory. There is no real place for small groups. If you want the best resources you have to join or ally with a mega guild. Properties owned by players always tax as much as possible. It is a fun game. I couldn't do mid to late game content because I only played with a few of my friends. Albion's peak player count was somewhere near 30k concurrent players on steam. It averages around 7k daily. it is niche. Star Citizen is aiming to have the same feature. In fact, the only place you cannot be robbed in SC is inside an armistice zone which is limited to stations and cities. In Albion Online, nearly half the zones do not allow PVP at all. And that is where the majority is. They play up to the point where they can no longer progress without entering full loot PVP areas and then move on. Star Citizen has 0 content that is actually protected. It is already unappealing to most. So I'm trying to put into perspective how unpopular this actually is. Pair that with the fact that in-game ships and items can be purchased with real money. People deep into Star Citizen do not realize how niche this proposed game is. These gung-ho full-loot pvpers do not realize how small a group they are compared to the silent majority. This silent majority will say nothing. They will not post online or complain publicly. They won't share their thoughts or talk in chat. But they are there and they are the ones that make or break a game. These "PVP-encouraged areas" will not be popular among the majority. I'd wager MOST players haven't even touched Jumptown. Top tier resources and rewards do not make up for lost time. I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting full-loot PVP. I understand it's appeal. But I'm tired of its advocates claiming it's "the right way". CIG should have prioritized SAFE zones. It might sound less sexy, but it opens up the game a lot more. They should be prioritizing content for the majority, that's just how things work. But they're setting a focus on PVP for the first "big expansion" and I wish they would recognize this is actually narrowing the scope of players rather than increasing it; it's not as intriguing as they think.

[@Tillman581]

Rather disingenuous video pretending to be unbiased, when you yourself have always been pro PVP. Yes, _one day_ there will be crafting stuff to try and bridge the new gap. We just have to be patient right? Same with AI Crew/server blades to let you use your turrets and the like. Just like the NPC ships/trading simulations to add more targets and meaningful loops. Just like other systems to spread out into that may be less combat foc-whopps! Pyro! So, what? Another ten, twenty years? Then PvE folk can have a balanced fun time? Meanwhile here's more PvP content, or content touted as PvE but heavily combat themed to encourage folk to kill you when you try and do it. Remember, trade distributions centers are now our raid content, not, you know, a bloody _trade center_! FFS. I like combat as much as- well. I'd say next guy, but most of the pricks I encounter as the 'PVP' crowd just looking to grief folk with stealth torping miners and shit. Thought those missile changes would address that, but nope! Can't piss off those folk! How DARE you try and balance combat! Shame! SHAME! But hey, tell me more about how the A2 was ruining Jump Town for you, that's unrelated, right?

[@theMedicatedCitizen]

I love that the same crowd that wanted the hard life challenge of being a criminal get easiest access to the best weapons with zero repercussions gameplay. Finally some new content for them, what with 90% of the ships being combat ships and all, and the fact they have always been able to shoot people in Stanton with next to no repercussions. It's about time new PVP content was introduced, right? Screw those explorers wanting to see the first new planets added in years. The same people that whined PVEr's want easy mode got their free torps.

[@Kev-A]

PvP is needed in SC, but there needs to be consequences to balance this.

[@LordOfFlies]

SC, a space sim needs to encourage realistic player behaviour. A solo cargo hauler in Pyro deserves to get ganked and pirated. However Pyro being a open season free for all is not immersive nor fitting in a sim.

[@NUM-19]

SC have backed themselves into a tough position, by the very nature of a Lawless zone, this is exactly the kind of gameplay that will be present there, kill on sight; funny number go up. This will over time drive away the PvE crowd but maybe the next system will provide something for them. Going to be a tough one to balance but this is their vision & it's playing out exactly that way

[@jondspen]

I like PVP (sometimes), but not in a Aurora when I am just putting around. Historically, pirating was only done when there was a valid reason. Even today, Somalia pirates don't just attack anyone and everyone just to grief them. If they did - the UN and USA would bring hellfire and brimstone down on them. There is a rep system - pirating should get dinged for their actions - and it should stick beyond a death respawn that wipes rep. You want to PvP and grief, then you get jumped as soon as you enter the game by the "authorities" or headhunter missions pop up where people can form a posse to come after you. That rep should also keep for weeks or months (depending on the amount of pirating you have engaged in). Otherwise - this game will end up like GTAO - pay to win with and a few kids who have mom/dads credit card flying around griefing new players - who then quit the game b/c it's not fun. Essentially, if you are a pirate solo or org - the only way you can get supplies would eventually come down to visiting your org base and hope the supplies you need are available - and now your org base is marked on the space map b/c you have a bounty and you are located at it. WoW did a good job on PvP/PvE IMHO - certain zones were designated - and you didn't get anything "special" (OP gear/ship components) other than PvP specific stuff that is worthless in any other part of the game. Sea of Thieves is another game that sucks b/c of useless griefing.

[@suckonmypokeballs8062]

you didnt watch citcon did you....

[@deathsmessenger]

cig have only outlawed excessive griefing and everything else as far as they are concerned is pvp (they are conflaiting the two) so i think they are clueless about the pitfalls as far as they are concerned griefing is good fun untill it becomes excessive.

[@willydapooh]

What people need to understand is when it comes down to it. If CIG had to choose, they would stop PVP altogether, the vast majority of players in SC are PVE players. Thats just a simple fact, and because PVE players are the ones who fund the game mostly. As we see the grieving spinning out of control ect. Its only going to end that way, as soon as it starts hurting the money flow. It will be a shame for that to happen, but seems like its heading this way. Cause and effect.

[@michaelweaver4439]

PvP and being time poor is not the problem. - it’s the MASSIVE time cost of having to recover from death/loss that is the cause of the problem. This is a huge issue in the basic game design.

[@lordbayne7918]

Why cant PVP players...play PVP players? There is a group of people who want to do that. What does it hurt to let PVE players not be part of all that?

[@madhax47]

Because most pvp players just want to be seal clubbers. Just suggest skill based matchmaking and you will hear 1000 excuses why it's bad.

[@Tillman581]

That would require them to actually want to fight. I've seen folk broadcast in general asking for fights, none take them up But man, those hunting the mining belts for Prospecters were _everywhere_

[@khallz9217]

CiGs response to griefing is serious reputation losses. We need to see this in-game sooner than later. Cig should also incentivize lawful pvper players to protect trade routes and respond to players in distress.

[@Glathgrundel]

Trade lanes should be 100% monitored for their entire length - no disabling the monitor station - and punishment should be significant (in High Security systems).

[@ren_dhark]

Why should griefers care about reputation or Jail time? No mechanic will prevent a battle ship griefing miners and freighters from griefers, even High Sec Security is just out for revenge after the griefing already took place. That OpenPvP parrot is dead right from the start.

[@khallz9217]

@@ren_dhark I understand your concern Ren. It is hard to envision a complete game with a robust reputation system. We have to remember there is no stopping one off griefing events. The topic at hand is about continued and targeted griefing. Things we know - 1) Operating ships will be costly - the bigger the ship the greater the cost. 2) continued griefing will make conveniences less accessible, insurance timers and costs greater 3) lastly limit freedom of movement. 4) there will be active ways to identify a griefer via scanning. The reputation system will be crucial on touching all those aspects. .

[@ren_dhark]

@@khallz9217 While the Reputation System is a good system to make pirate players think twice and check if the target is really worth it, it imho won't help against dedicate griefers that don't care about their reputation or the repair cost as they will just switch ships or accounts and continue. So far there hasn't been a single planned PvE event that hasn't been taken over by griefers. You don't need large ships for griefing, a small fighter is usually enough to destroy a Prospector or a Hull. Insurance timers don't matter if you have enough ships and the cost for LTI ships will be negligible. A pirate may suffer from not being able to land at every station, but a griefer won't, for them it's enough to camp outside the stations or bottlenecks like the Jumpgates. That CIG can identify griefers via scanning doesn't seem to work at the moment and I am very sceptical that this will ever work to be honest. And even when griefers were actively reported and then put under surveillance the punishment they had to face was two or three weeks in which one of their accounts got blocked once. The one and only solution I still believe in after all these years as a backer is the promised 9 to 1 ratio of NPC vs. PCs where pirates can board NPC traders as well for profit and griefers have a hard time telling players from NPCs and lose interest after killing the 20th NPC instead of harvesting grief from frustrated players. The sad thing is that I don't see this anywhere on the Horizon for at least 5 more years.

[@cannonfutter2935]

They will figure it out when nobody is playing in Pyro anymore. The main problem is the missing reputation and consequences, they should really get on that.

[@x_quinn_x9179]

So here is the reality... If SC does not draw in and keep a large enough player base so that there are enough paying players within that base, then SC will fail.... What does that mean?... it means all options are on the table regardless of if CIG want to go that way or not... If CIG go out of their way to force players into PVP, if they lock high quality materials in Lawless systems only (PVP does not equal high risk ever, NPCs are more dangerous than players ever can be), If they make the game a massive grind for those who just want a PVE cooperative experience (which it shouldn't be since facing NPCs is far more risky than players, especially monster NPCS like the worm), then the game will fail... I am not even sure why the PVP community keeps insisting that SC has to be a game that does not have a hard line barrier of choice between PVP and PVE. Sure 1.0 might be small enough with 5 star systems (or may not be given the size of the star systems) that you may come across 1 or 2 players reasonably frequently anywhere other than main city locations, but it won't be a satisfying amount... Why do you think Rich showed everyone the tokens for base shields system in Pyro at Citcon... CIG know PVP will hardly ever happen unless they can condense the PVP community into areas such as highly rewarding conflict zones, but if they have too many of these kinds of areas, then there won't be enough players playing each zone for it to be a fun experience. Just look at jump town, often it is either a fun PVP event with lots of groups fighting it out, or it is just a loot-athon with no one around to engage in the fight. Not to mention as the number of star systems grow the distances and time it takes to get to these areas will get much larger making condensed PVP even more unlikely. In the end, it is more likely PVP players who will walk away from SC than PVE players when you break it down... But PVE players won't start playing in the first place if they hear about SC being a PVP gank fest nightmare, and as you know that will be how it is painted. PVP does not equate to any level of rIsk, so lets keep the BS Risk Vs Reward is only risky if PVP is involved garbage argument out of this.... Only dangerous areas with dangerous NPCs that could also have dangerous players is what can be considered a high risk area. PVE also does not equate to a player not wanting to do risky things, so let's keep the PVE players are all "what ever derogatory term" out of this as well. I personally don't care too much about the game being open PVP that is controlled by in game law systems. But I also feel players could be so spread out, it will be hard to find PVP anyway. The Pyro base shield gameplay for 1.0 shows that CIG also feel like this will be true. So let's get to the main argument... both sides want fulfilling game play... If Rich wants to maintain that SC is all-inclusive, than PVE players need to feel secure in the idea that PVP is either highly unlikely to happen or can't happen.... and PVP players need to feel like every time they want to do PVP there are options to do it and those options are enjoyable..... If however you are a player that just wants to be able to attack players just to make yourself feel better about yourself and secure your idea that you are more often BIG STRONK PLAYER WHO IS BOSS... then you should expect SC to be a very lonely and disappointing experience.

[@michaelweaver4439]

They could side step some of the issue by providing strong military control of jump points. (Which is what would happen IRL)

[@maxjergens]

PKers are notorious for cheating in online gaming, often resorting to wall hacks and aimbots. While I fully support player versus player (PVP) interactions, I am completely against cheating. It seems that wherever there is PVP, there are cheaters seeking an unfair advantage. Cheating is my only issue with PVP; aside from that, I endorse it.

[@az_3kgt714]

Its a problem with "PvP" on any MMO. Rarely do you actually see "PvP" its usually devolves into just greifing and ganking people who have no hope of even being able to defend themselves. And i've seen many an MMO completely obliterate their population because of griefing/ganking and then it promotes an absolutely toxic playerbase. PvE focused MMO's like WoW,FFXIV,Warframe all have much better communities and retain their playerbases. PvP mmos typically die in in a year and lose half their playerbase in 6 months. Lots of people complaining about ganking/griefing and "leet pvpers" telling them If you don't like it LEAVE carebear and they leave and the game struggles to not die with major server mergers and then going F2P which is basically admitting your game is dieing, Dev/publishers monetize everything and then they announce they're shutting down the servers. I've seen it over and over and over again. PvP is the death of your mmo.

[@scislianlongshadow]

It will NOT work unless they can separate pvp from pve. If you want to play soccer, football, basketball... you can not FORCE other people to play with you. The problem with this pvp shit is that you are FORCING others into a situation they don't want to be in. pvp is fine, have large pvp areas no big deal, entire pvp systems is fine but make other places SAFE from this shit. I'm sorry but attacking anyone all the time is not ok it's bad for the game and it WILL kill Star citizen . People should ALWAYS have the option to not be part of your online spaceship bullying. pvp in SC is not pvp it is griefing. Perhaps that changes as the game evolves but in it's current state it is nothing but griefing. Jump town was pvp..... Missions that have you encounter other players as part of the mission is pvp... Blowing up some poor bastard in his prospector just for luls IS griefing.

[@Glathgrundel]

Until we have Low Sec and High Sec, with appropriate punishment and disincentives for griefing, then we will always be at the mercy of people's worst intentions.

[@mastergecko1178]

The PVE player base will always be the majority in any MMO, if you don’t cater to the majority of your players then your game will just slowly hemorrhage money and get shutdown, this is just the simple reality. The PVP player base won’t be enough to sustain a game like this long term.

[@Nianfur]

PvP is fine, but hardcore full loot PvP is a problem. If the reward for ganking is rare loot by killing another player. Then players will go out of their way to behave badly to get other people's shit.

[@phenixtalonsbane7232]

My suggestion for the time being for CIG is to balance the equation by making the punishments for PvP in Stanton harsh enough that those that want to focus on PvE stay in Pyro where there is no official law system. Meaning that until they figure out something better, CIG removes the escape path from the prison in Stanton, then those players that score rank 4+ get increasingly longer sentences based time in real life. They can still reduce that slightly by doing the in game prison work game play, just like doing work in a prison can potentially reduce time via good behavior if that's part of their sentencing. This being said, those that are repeat offenders, should have their time limits of their sentencing raised with each occurrence, making it painful enough for them that either they change how they act in game, or stick to where the game is lawless. This way, both the PvP & PvE fans can enjoy the game in the systems that are set up towards how they want to play. As for the griefers that attack incoming players at the system jump gates, as I recall, the UEE is supposed to be guarding those portals on both sides out a ways, just far enough out for players to be able to get their shields up or jump towards where they plan on going. Which should allow the peaceful players that are only looking to see a sight or 2 the opportunity to get past the gate, but traveling around Pyro would still be at their own peril.

[@jimrussell4062]

A fine AND 24 hours in prison (no early release) would be a start. Along with reputation damage. Then they'd HAVE to play alt characters and would be "out of the population" for that 24 hours. Even if that person went out and killed someone every day, they'd only get to kill them once a day and then be gone again. (Unless they only killed other PvP opt-in players, who agree to it and then there's no punishment.) Until we can have the other stuff... a simple PVP/PVE "opt in/out" would allow both sides to be happy.

[@Jezato]

We're still missing the biggest factor in this argument, NPCs. it's a PvPvE game world. That E, is going to be the determining factor. How does the environment(the verse) handle griefers and murder-hobos? through rep? player made contracts? automatically generated NPC bounty hunter contracts? affiliated NPC gang retaliation? Will NPC factions help their members? will their be roaming fleets of NPC bounty hunters chasing down criminals in lawless sectors? will we be able to hire NPC wingmen to guard our ships and hold off attackers while we make a QT escape? with 9 NPCs to every one human player, I think the majority of "griefers" and "murder-hobos" should be controlled by NPC reactions. But whatever CIG ends up doing, they'll piss off someone. I just think they need to make the verse function without player interaction.

[@Jeremy_Walker]

I have serious doubts about a rich NPC population. I’m betting NPC stay zone bound like every other video game ever.

[@CptFugu]

@@Jeremy_Walker I am afraid you are onto something there. It seems CIG is trying to use PvP and crafting to solve all their issues.

[@Jeremy_Walker]

@@CptFugu I’d love it if they get it figured out, the pathing alone is an enormous challenge. Then we have all the physicalized stuff that they’d have to actually do rather than just an animation. It’s tough to envision them figuring that out. Agree it’s going to be player heavy. Hopefully the crafting will be deep enough to be a good distraction at least lol

[@CptFugu]

To be fair, it is not rocket science. Those NPC's will do a lot just by flying from place to place. I am afraid crafting will just be an infuriating timesink and a gameplay gate. It is there just slow down you down while making it seems you are progressing. That's how it is in most Multiplayer games and CIG doesn't seem to have any insight regarding how to make it better. In the end, I am afraid I will fill meters and progress bars and end up just bored and disappointed.

[@TheJZP]

I agree. I like PVP but being forced into it is a huge turn off.

[@notcarson2227]

You’re not forced to do it. You just won’t have some new components. Oh well

[@TheJZP]

@notcarson2227 it's shoot first ask questions later in the whole pyro system and they said that's where the good mining will be. It is forced

[@notcarson2227]

@@TheJZP if someone shoots you, then go into nav mode and run away. There are obvious solutions that carebears like yourself fail to realize, because you’re so used to being catered to.

[@TheJZP]

@notcarson2227 I love PVP. I mostly just do human bounty missions. You are missing the point entirely obviously because of your low IQ.

[@gamedevcarto]

"I now have 2 children in 5th and 6th grade" - that just hit different lol. it's crazy how long we've been on this ride

[@LordOfFlies]

I backed this game when I was a child, now I have a child and 1.0 is no where in sight...

[@Trucker4Life84]

CIG should have implemented ToW to separate PvP from the Live servers. It would would've given PvE and Industrial players a space to enjoy the Live experience without interference.

[@jodomarj9063]

Gate camping is never fun for the one being camped.

[@Ocularkn1ght]

I snickered when he said he trusts the CIG Devs, but I needed that, I really hope he's right thought in all honesty.

[@durtyred86]

There are definitely some sweaty Dev's who would f*ck up the game if left to their devices, but overall their intentions are well. The marketing team on the other hand, are pretty dirty.

[@MontoyaTEST]

Its easy to criticize them as being stupid, but the ones I have met IRL are smart fuckers. They know what needs to be done. Problem is that working in a big company means its a lot more challenging getting your ideas to the top.

[@Dracounguis]

I don't think the devs are stupid. But many do seem to be in their own bubble and when their ideas meet reality it doesn't work. I would mostly blame management and the world class feature creep. Many times I get the feeling they are just treading water and hoping that technology advances enough to solve the problems to whatever unattainable promises they made the players a decade ago.

[@andyandreson3989]

The only issue I have is the jump point choke point. I will say I haven’t had an issue yet, but global keeps spouting off about being attacked trying to enter and even exiting jump points. Besides that I have no issue with the insanity. CIG shouldn’t waste time building missions in the Pyro system on planets though, every murderhobo knows exactly where to wait.

[@kevinpatrick6080]

I backed early. Right after the initial drive ended. Since then, I've added two daughters and a son to my household. I feel you man... I feel you!

[@MontoyaTEST]

You stopping at three? Might as well go for four! :D

[@Glathgrundel]

@@MontoyaTEST When we start counting grandchildren, then I think we can agree that CIG are dragging their feet.

[@Irvin_Wright]

There really has to be some kind of balance, can't think of a solution. CIG wants Star Citizen to be realistic, however, there isn't actual consequences for griefing

[@luthairhero2436]

I think Pyro will be Star Citizen's decision point regarding PVP. Will CIG stick to the guns for PVA? Or will they chase the money $$$ by making PVE-only servers? I think it will be on the decision board no matter what anyone thinks. I don't think they will do it, but I am sure they will seriously consider it.

[@Boss-zo4lw]

CR baited us in with talk off a PVP Slider, lets not forget that.

[@MontoyaTEST]

Is there a way that could work with the current structure of the game?

[@jbirdmax]

There are a couple ways that could work. One is having PvP agreed to, a mix, and off. Most of the PvP I do already is agreed on. But not always. Sometimes I’m just attacked. Personally I probably wouldn’t turn that off, but if I saw a red dot over people who opted out? Where attacking them did nothing? I wouldn’t mind.

[@Mr.Universe]

@@jbirdmax forcing people to ask for pvp in a open game like this is silly. Pvp needs to be open. This isn't truck simulator.

[@jcpole]

@@MontoyaTEST I really don't see why not. It's just a matter of will. Without a PvP-disabling slider, so many people will just quit the game right away. If that's what happens, so be it. For myself, I'm not spending another dime on this game until they commit to giving players the ability to disable PvP stupidity. I have NO patience for it. I have NO interest in being a target for the antisocial brats, while they ruin the game for everyone else. I'm sure the morons will start with their "carebear" BS, but the reality is that the morons are going to drive everyone else away from the game if they can. Another poster mentioned how antisocial PvP brats are their own worst enemies. I couldn't agree more with that assertion.

[@CarrackPilot]

@@MontoyaTEST The only way this could work is to have a pure pve universe or lower resources within PVE instances otherwise PVE would be the industrials and PVP would be the rest. I just do not see it working without crazy jank. This game needs less jank.

[@lameisthenewcool5277]

if they have any kind of common sense they will make the military/stealth components available after a certain rep is reached with the appropriate group

[@Tael71]

CIG's heavy handed approach to force players into PVP play by moving the most favorite ship components behind PVP encounter areas was a bad move.

[@hellishape2140]

They should just add a way to hire NPC AI ships to escort. They work so hard on this AIs flight model and other BS, we should be able to rent AI ship fleets to take us in to Pyro. They should also not be cheap.

[@jeanwinter5275]

No one will even want to go to Pyro if this continues, as all the explorers who share the info about trade-commodities and resources available are dead on arrival!

[@akireon5440]

They just need to make PVP toggleable just like World of Warcraft has done it for 2 decades. Give people incentives to toggle it on, make strictly PVP areas/systems and missions where it auto toggles on. Missions that can be done anywhere like cargo, or bounty hunting as well auto toggle on etc. Why reinvent the wheel? Some love PVP, Some hate it, the entire game experience doesn't need to be it. I enjoy both but there's times when I had a fucked up day at work and I just want to chill and explore around only to be ganked by a ship way better than mine so someone can relive the school yard bully he never grew out of... We all invested in this game we all need to have fun in it... Also, there will be a large enough playerbase to have 2 'servers' like WOW, one for PVE with what I stated above, and one strictly PVP.

[@wesss6731]

Hell no

[@CitizenScott]

Sounds like somebody didn't know what game they backed TBH.

[@Glathgrundel]

@@CitizenScott None of us knew what game this was going to be, not even CR.

[@Glathgrundel]

High Sec vs. Low Sec is the ONLY way this can work.

[@ren_dhark]

@@Glathgrundel How will High Sec prevent griefing? The security forces will always arrive when the griefing is already done and the griefer has moved on into other areas or will have swapped accounts. Reputation is something griefers couldn't care less about, as is jail time or even permadeath.

[@stevenszmek7007]

Every player unknown gets shot on sight when encountered. The majority of "pirates" shoot down starter ships and prospectors without looting, salvaging etc. You can even see that behavior on many vids and streams. With pyro i do not exoect to be able to just go exploring ... I got legitemately interdicted and pirated ONCE IN 5 YEARS !!! And it was a fun and nice experience. Everything else was the regular shot on sight and grieving ...

[@mezz44]

Half expecting the griefing to begin at the jump point on the pyro side. I am all for piracy in the game if it is actually piracy. Murderhobos ruin every game they touch.

[@wun1gee]

Pirates of the Burning Sea was the first game I played like this and it was actually better-balanced around PVP than Star Citizen currently is. Pirates had access to cheal single-use ships but when they were using them they were flagged for PVP 100% of the time anywhere on the map. Anyone else could only be forced into PVP when they entered a contested zone. The problem was that new player PVE content was often in contested zones, and imagine being a level 5 player jumped by a group of 5 pirates in superfrigates that revel in absolutely murdering you for no other reason than they hadn't had anyone else to murder in the previous 5 minutes leading up to your ganking... But this wasn't an easily-resolved problem because the contested zones were often the major industrial ports and if you protected low-levels from PVP in those contested zones around major industrial ports, people would just get on low-levels to do their hauling between industrual ports and it would've destroyed the RvR element of the game.. They never did come up with a suitable compromise and the game died. It still runs today but last time I logged in it only had a handful of players. Mostly Russians. Any sort of meaningful RvR and economic gameplay was long dead because there weren't enough players, to the point that the player markets were full of ships the devs put on there just so people could actually buy ships since there was nobody around to build them... This is what SC's going to be like by the time 1.0 even gets here...

[@technotoad2566]

Piracy should be high risk high reward. Disable the ship, don’t destroy it type thing for better payout instead of destroyed scrap.

[@sanctred]

This is only the tip of the ice berg. Clearly SC game direction has changed and it’s going to create a lot of upset backers.

[@bluegoggles8822]

For how big the game and vision will be, will also bring big problems. On top of it, there will be always be bugs, hacks, exploits, griefing. Personally, if the game wants to thrive and not become a cesspool of agony for players, they need have a finite separation between PVE/PVP; not separate servers mind you. There should be specific PVP "zones" like how Diablo 4 has, with missions and rewards tied to PVP activities. Add in small and large scale PVP battleground type scenarios just like any shooter (CoD, etc.). If you are taking on a bounty hunter mission, you have to be flagged as PVP until the mission is a success or failed. Let PVE players PVE, as it's expected to have plenty of PVE missions, stories to follow, and just general site seeing and doing production. My PVP experience in games isn't extensive, but I have played PVP games and the result is mostly the same - impulse attacking and watching your back 24/7. I don't want to watch my back 24/7 and PVE players, especially those who spent a bunch of money to support the development, should have a concern how Star Citizen goes about gameplay.

[@midtown3221]

So long as CIG keeps empowering griefers, the community will continue to deteriorate to the point where Star Citizen begins to catch a bad rep of being Rust in Space. It kinda is already, but nothing like to the degree where Star Citizen begins to bleed players. Ashes of Creation is strictly against this, so I hear. Get with the program Chris Robberts. The only alternative is PVE only servers if CIG keeps empowering griefers/players claiming they're role playing as "pirates"

[@karlthegreaterest]

There needs to be better security in Stanton to draw the distinction between high security space and lawless/low security space Station defences are the only response to griefers, besides a bounty hunter contract being put out. If varying degrees of crime stat put out space cops to hunt you, in increasingly deadly ships, then I think the PVE crowd would feel better about PVP griefing and farming As it stands now, there is all the incentive to get your money and jollies by ruining the gameplay loop of unprotected others

[@karlthegreaterest]

I also imagine bounty values increasing on the griefers, to incentivize lawful players and PVE'rs to engage in policing their own servers

[@fmartingorb]

One more thing. The tech developed is for PVE and PVP. A shard for 1 player and PVE would work differently. Instead of using several servers, you need one server to run several one player shards and stream content. Having server meshing for a one player shard is not viable economically. What they could do is to disable damage from a player to another player. But still run 500 player caps in the shard. You would see players, but you would not be able to kill them or to be killed by them. That is the easiest solution from a hypothetical perspective, without knowing the code and how hard it would be to implement

[@platiuscyndar9017]

Wait - moddable multiplayer on independent hosts is off the table? When did they say that?

[@jcpole]

I want NOTHING to do with PvP AT ALL!! My playing time is very limited. Why should I make myself a target so some other antisocial brat can enjoy himself, instead of playing in a PvE environment???? You can have your PvP crap, but don't force me to take part in it. If I wanted PvP crap, I'd have stuck with Eve Online.

[@grumpyoldmad]

Don't go to Pyro then.

[@F1erceG]

It's a sandbox bro play a different game

[@ForgedHorizons]

Alright space dad, keep to your nice and mostly secure shipping lanes and haul your cargo without much issue. Pyro should do a decent job at drawing pvp players away from your nice stanton shipping lanes.

[@jasonrd316]

I agree with that sentiment. That's why the law system is so crucial here. Everyone won't be able to go everywhere risk free.

[@WishIknewwhatthiswas]

Dont make yourself a target

[@TheDestroyer702]

Make defending other players profitable

[@Glathgrundel]

Take player bounty payouts from the target's wallet, so that alt-account self-bounty hunting cannot be used as an exploit.

[@Dracounguis]

If NPC AI was working correctly I wouldn't be against hiring a couple of them to protect me as I go mining. Obviously the fee for them would be a lot less than a player would want for sitting in their fighter being bored for an hour or two.

[@edenyan7237]

Well, ① Fallout76's method is always a good solution: you can choose to be PVP or PVE, there's a switch, but there's also a long cool down. players can enjoy group events together without worry of getting ganked, players have individual loot etc. ② if not elite dangerous' method also works, you have a single player server and multiplayer server, everything's the same except you won't meet anyone in your private universe, but the economy is all linked. ③ we can always have the hardcore version of ① which every account can only choose 3 or 4 times in between PVP and PVE, you try those 3-4 times, get a feeling of how it works in this game, then make your mind and commit to it, PVE players accept that they will never get the items and other rewards what PVP player gets, and PVP player never gets to hurt a commited PVE player in ANYWAY POSSIBLE. PVP player gets their unique items, even unique fighter ships, that's fine. both side gets what they want: PVP player gets their feeling of been different, been better, has unique rewards to showing off. PVE players gets peaceful playing time.(and make sure that PVE and PVP acounts cannot transfer ANYTHING no items, no ships, no cash in between. PVE can only transfer things to other PVE, PVP can only transfer things to other PVP) For star citizen, ③ seems like a good solution.

[@skurjo9975]

the most successful MMO of all time (world of warcraft) has PVE and PVP servers whats the problem with that? why does it have to be one or the other when we can have both?

[@Dracounguis]

Last I checked... All WoW servers are capable of PVP, but you have to opt in by toggling it on and off when in a major city. And to make up for that EXTRA danger, you gain more XP and some other rewards while running around the world in PvP mode.