Mythic+ vs Raid - The Gearing Dilemma

[@Tettles]

Kinda fucked up that I got world pvped while recording this video....

[@samuel9294]

i found that amazing.

[@maxiflores1643]

seems legit

[@benjaminbrown6697]

Why is it messed up? Turn off pvp to record.

[@xSadalx]

Warmode is an option you can turn off.

[@maxiflores1643]

@@xSadalx Child of summer right here folks

[@th3realxxheaderxx]

As a mythic plus player, who has very little to no time for raiding, I do not want to feel like I have to step into the raid. I am capable of doing mythic content but do not have any interest in spending 2-3+ hours a night for progression raiding. I shouldn’t feel like we have to raid and “raid only” players should have to M+ to get BIS gear

[@layanmorningstar]

Exactly. Raiding at a high level is really not a fun activity. It is very rewarding when finally killing the bosses but looking back... So many hours wasted banging your head against a boss because someone messes something up (which is totally normal and acceptable in a 20 man raid, nobody is perfect) M+ is short bursts of fun with just 5 people, way easier to manage, yet still challenging enough to warrant the rewards.

[@Dekken-o3g]

I think people are missing out on how difficult it is to put a Mythic Raid guild together and progress through clearing. If you can get BiS from M+ there is just that much less incentive to do it. I mean - just read the comments here about M+, how much fun it is, what a less of a time suck it is, etc. Great, do M+. But when you are progressing in raid, most of the time you stop getting gear when you are stuck on a boss. And it can be a LONG friggin time (often guilds aren't going to give up on progression to re-clear, especially if you got through a harder boss) It can be weeks with no gear. Let the raiders have a little something (that you actually can get - you just need a little RNG luck in the vault).

[@kylebb96]

Yeah I don't want to spend 9+ hours a week wiping repeatedly especially if its that same person making the same mistake that no-one wants to kick and even if you do kick then you have to find another player and then they have to potentially learn the fight(s) from scratch YIKES sounds like SO MUCH FUN!!!

[@layanmorningstar]

@@Dekken-o3g I totally understand that Mythic Raids take a ridiculous amount of effort to pull off, especially for the raid leader, officers and people who are responsible who literally spend hours upon hours outside of the raid to prepare foods, strats, manage raiders, roles, etc etc etc. I know how it works, but my point still stands. Whether you are a raider or an organizer of such, Mythic raiding takes an absurd, unreasonable ammount of time and, from the perspective of a raider, you are banging your head against a boss for months at a time unless you are on a top 1 guild. Someone with a job and a modicum of social life, and some other games other than wow can't pull this off. Does that mean we should like miss out on it? Does this game require you to play this ridiculous hours to get gear that btw will be outdated 2 months after you get it? (I'm assuming by the time you're done with mythic raid, in 2 months a new one comes)

[@KiaStout]

I would like to see something like WOD did. In WOD, pvp gear scaled better in pvp than raid gear did. If they could make gear, you get from certain content do better in the content you got it from that would fix a lot of issues, I would think.

[@Crayzyy]

as a M+ only player I know im cooked.

[@Crayzyy]

@@mexcellent227 I was not cooked to begin with. Last few seasons have been great for M+ gearing.

[@blackwomangamer2637]

@@mexcellent227 M+ is the only part of the game worth playing cry more freak

[@lostheboss7938]

@@mexcellent227 M+ saved WoW. Without M+ WoW dies off.

[@vaagrant]

This is gonna be my first expansion without raiding... I don't want to commit that much... So yayyyy I'm screwed

[@dori356]

@@mexcellent227 you are delusional

[@sanbr682]

just give us the awakened track where it starts out at 1 of 14 and we have to do the content to get the crest to upgrade it. if every piece of gear drops like this problem is solved. then M+ doesn't have to raid if they don't want to and raiders don't have to M+ if they don't want to.

[@Larky90]

It wouldn't solve anything for Mythic raiders, they do dungeons for the amount of loot. You can only get so much amount of item from a raid even with splits, meanwhile you can get every item you need from M+.

[@sakexz]

the way i would solve this is probably those tokens you can get each week from vault if you dont pick gear, just make an item that costs 6 (all weekly) that upgrades an item to the next track above it. so when you dont get a piece of loot or anything fun, you can have a guaranteed chosen item to upgrade.

[@eaalders628]

It's insane to me that alot of people can't seem to grasp the actual problem with this. M+ only players being behind others in the content they enjoy even though it's a pillar of its own is really stupid to me.

[@googleaccount2821]

Oh the Mythic raiders grasp it. They just don't think M+ players deserve to be able to reach the same power level without raiding.

[@wowprobeast7543]

@@googleaccount2821even when they struggle clearing 10s

[@Rexroy]

I Agree, lets just remove raiding.

[@mlykke]

That's how it's been for PVP'ers for most of WoW history. But I agree, it's frustrating to feel behind because yo enjoy a different type of content and don't necessarily have 10 hours a day to do dungeons, Mythics, raids, RBGs, arena, world quests, profession grinding etc.

[@blackyvertigo]

@@googleaccount2821and they would be correct. Large scale organization like mythic raiding is more difficult than small scale 5 man content.

[@KirtHooper]

Ya I have no intention of raiding. I exclusively play M+. They need to just create M+ gear sets at this point and not have vers on raid gear or something. You shouldn't have to raid mythic to compete in a completely different part of the game

[@KC-py5vq]

I'll never understand how someone doesn't enjoy raiding.

[@AntonKlermon]

@@KC-py5vq well, i hate specific time also play for 3-4 hours in that specific time

[@alohaitsjeff]

@@KC-py5vqtoo many personalities clash. Same repeatable bosses every week. Gets old quick from my experience. After week 12 I’m usually burnt out. But I can do mythic plus all season. More variety and closer knit group.

[@HarkinsX]

@KC-py5vq because to do any raiding that means anything you need to find 20 non idiots who can match time schedules and play. If we had 10 man mythic you'd see significantly more raiders.

[@johnlinks]

​@@KC-py5vqwho has time to raid for 3+ hours 2-3x times a week? Mythic+ is a half hour run whenever you want

[@Nea482]

the difference between raiders being forced into m+, and m+ players being forced into raid is that m+ is infinitely more accessible than raid. for a mythic raiding guild you often need to send in a formal application, ideally have 20 other like-minded people, and have a set schedule where you generally spend around 3 hours 2-3 days a week. with m+ you either just hit up a friend "yoo wanna do some keys" or sit in lfg, que, gg go next. it just really really sucks feeling like you dont have a chance to be competitive in a gamemode thats supposed to be meant for you

[@wapniak666]

We really shouldn't be forced to do both Just be able to do content you enjoy and that's it

[@Nea482]

​@wapniak666 yea ofc, i dont want raiders to be forced into m+ either if they dont want to. it just really doesnt feel like a fair comparison when they bring it up. them doing a lot of keys for a week or two is not even close to having to raid for the whole season even though you dont want to

[@okCool51]

It doesnt work out, if the reward doesnt Equal the effort. I also just pug hc raids at max and mostly do m+. No one is forcing us to raid, but by putting m+ on the same Level as mythic raids? Thats just insane and would kinda demotivate the Raiders, i mean they mostly do it for the gear otherwise they would just Spam m+ since its alot easier.

[@wapniak666]

@@Nea482 I mean both things are bad, and it's not like you are done with keys after 2-3weeks especially if your guild is extending Sure running 4 weekly keys is not as much effort as joining mythic guild but it's still a miserable experience and I absolutely do not want to do it

[@Mediiiicc]

@@Nea482 its not doing a lot of keys for a week or two lmao. way to downplay the issue.

[@ammertos1517]

I don't have time to raid and since it's mandatory now, I won't even try to push keys and will quit playing way earlier than usual.

[@GCDChronicles]

If you don't have the time to raid, you DEFINITELY don't have the time to push keys anyway, they spend 10 hours every day doing homework keys to get that one key that gives them score, only to deplete it and go back to doing homework keys. I'm exaggerating, of course, but that's the essence of it. If you don't have the time for raids, you don't have the time for that kind of pushing, which means you will not reach a point where the fact you don't raid mythic will actually truly matter. If you don't have the time for that, then it doesn't matter that you don't raid, just play the content you can, don't compete against other people, compete against yourself.

[@ammertos1517]

@@GCDChronicles I am not pushing WF keys. Pushign keys can be a different key for everyone. I usually go to 25-27 (15-17 now). I can do that on my own time

[@algreen1]

RE: The problem you mention with raiders feeling compelled to spam M+, this problem is also for M+ players who are forced to enter the raid. There is no way to settle this issue without removing gear ilvl advantage from raid and making M+ slower to ramp, OR making M+ specific sets that scale in strength when instanced in M+. In my opinion, this should have been done years ago as it is two seperate pieces of content. Raiders do not deserve any advantage in M+

[@devlin1991]

PvP gear ilvl bumps in PvP. Raid gear does the same in raids, M+ does the same in M+. All cap at the same reduced level when out in the world or in the other pillar of content, maybe at heroic raid level.

[@Luxumbra69]

The difference is mythic raiders are in a rush to complete their content, while M+ acquire gear and then play most of the season. Nothing is stopping y'all from not doing M+ early on-- it will not affect your final power level. For M+ players? It definitely will. Barring fated/awakened seasons, you more likely than not, will never get your needed vault drops, even if you max M+ every week.

[@OmegaShanic]

"Raiders do not deserve any advantage in M+" Just making sure, is this a consistent thought - e.g., M+ gear should have minimal impact in raid? And do you agree with that consistency across the board? That is where my disagreement would start, once you leave all this talk of pushing, farming, maxing, etc. you realize having both places to acquire gear and having both be relevant expands the content people engage with. One of my only problems I DON'T have with M+ is that the gear is relevant to my character's ability to progress in other content.

[@okCool51]

Nah... i play m+ only too and some hc pugs. But putting m+ on the same Level as mythic raids is pure insanity, you can do all the m+ content for Max gear with pugs, raids just take too much effort and it would doom the raiding community. Like cmon you have 3k rio people wiping in hc...

[@fearl3ss514]

​@@okCool51 finally someone here that's not insane. I personally do both mythic raiding and m+, and I feel like 99% of people actually complaining about the difference in the pace of gearing have never played above 3k rio anyways. Only the best of the best players push extremely high keys early on - often enough players who raid mythic as well, just not in a RWF manner. Everyone else "slowly" progresses their rio over the entire season anyways. I didn't hit 3.8k in a matter of 3 resets for sure 😂😂

[@jackbedford-harman4589]

This is why I loved the bullions as an m+ player. I didn't have to settle for having lower ilvl trinkets, just because my bis came from raid and I don't do mythic raids. For me, the biggest problem with mythic raids is the lockout system. If it worked just like heroic, then I'd have no problem banging my head against the pug wall until I get it done, but the mythic lockout system requires a lot more organisation.

[@rq_itami9945]

Can we just finally get to instancing the two activities. Its getting so exhausting. Every season the same thing. Cant we have like a basline of ilevel for both thats shared and acquireable for both and then scale one down or up. I like the incentive to raid as a M+ player but I dont like the feeling of being forced to it especially since HC isnt enough. Myth Raiding is just something mostpeople wont do for a multitude of reasons other than skill. And that bleeding over into M+ is a shame.

[@okCool51]

I feel like they earn some kind of prestige... why do you feel we have the right to compete with mythic raiders, when we just do m+ dungeons? It would be disrespectful if the best arent rewarded for their effort. It takes so much time and effort organizing 20+ players...compared to random 5 man groups steamrolling a dungeon

[@masterblue1]

​@@okCool51because m+ is way harder than mythic raiding? Especially those who push keys. Can easily apend more time pushing than you do in prog

[@rq_itami9945]

​​@@okCool51 Im not saying Mythic Raiding isnt hard or that they dont deserve prestige. Of course they do. I have much respect for the effort and organization put into it. Im just saying that I think M+ and Mythic Raiding should be their separate things gear wise. Why do I need to Mythic raid to compete in high level keys (you know the ones that arent just 5man random queue run through). High Keys require a lot of effort and skill as well. Im not saying that M+ players should get better stuff than Mythic Raiders. I just want M+ players not to be at a disadvantage playing M+ against people who do Mythic Raids.

[@Createk]

So i need to farm 2 sets of gear if i enjoy both m+ and raiding, no thank you what a dogshit take only considering what u want

[@FulMetallalchemist]

Mythic vs m+ battle is literally a problem blizz made to accouny for like 100 race to world first people and maybe a couple hundred more early mythic pushers. Meanwhile they have millions of m+ runs and the fucking babies rtwf raiders that dont even play a game rather do their job complain that its hard and boring, yeah motherfuckers you made a game your job, suffer in solitude and shame on blizz for doing any changes for them compared to millions of other players when rtwf barely gives them any marketing.

[@JO-um7xg]

M+ gear should be able to be upgraded to Myth track once the 0.5 patch lands. That would resolve the issues M+ players experience. Alternatively, just tuned the raid for a lower ilvl once HoF is closed.

[@Dasbeerboots]

Or give out tokens for completing 10s or higher for myth track upgrades.

[@gustavlarsen1400]

They should limit the amount of hero gear you can get from m+ and then in turn make m+ get 2-3 myth track items per week instead of 1, then raid and m+ gearing is equal in terms of how much myth gear you get from each, but you are still incentivized to do both (which blizzard wants unfortunately)

[@cookieforawookie]

converting a heroic track to myth track would be SO SO NICE

[@mistersyl2231]

@@Dasbeerboots Ok but how do you do that so its fair to everyone ? You can spam as many M+ dungeon as you can do in a day. For raid you can only kill boss once per week, and you gotta divide the loot between 20 players. So either you'll have something for M+ that is weekly and ppl will say "pff thats a joke thats not enough wtf" Or you have something either very rng based, and ppl will cry about. Or some unlocking with X times doing +X keys, and then ppl who can play 16h/day will get gear in no time. And if you do like "very" high keys, ppl will complain that is only for the top players, so its the same as doing raids. For the actual way of gearing, there is no good way for both to be fair to the other. The main pb is how hard it is to actually pull a raid group that is viable enough to hope to kill bosses, it is not about how the gear is acquired. Cause actually the fact that ppl dont raid means they chose not to, its not like something that is blocked for them. Obv that is only my point of view, I might be wrong, but for me there is no way at all to balance the gear between myth and M+ cause of the way of how both works.

[@TheExplosiveCandy]

​@@mistersyl2231 Nah bro. Gearing is much easier for Raiders because the barrier to entry to M+ is non-existent. You do the dungeon. You get the loot. They can even do it with their raider friends. An M+ player trying to get into mythic raid is whole different story

[@layanmorningstar]

I had a lot of fun with The War Within questline and overall experience... Though I am a bit concerned. Obviously us m+ players want to get the best of the best, every player does. It just scares me that, I myself have quit raiding recently because being in a famed guild took so much effort and time, it felt like a job. Other "more chill" guilds still feel like a job because you are raiding and progressing for even longer, and I just decided that I won't raid anymore, it's stupid to spend hours upon hours weekly wiping against the same boss over and over and over again. M+ gives me the flexibility and variability to play whenever I want, with different groups, with just 5 people for short bursts of time, and I would argue it is quite challenging too. Why shouldn't we get raid level gear in m+? Or at least some form of control to buy pieces rather than praying at the vault. A coin to buy 1 mythic level raid item. Each week you unlock the loot of the next "2" bosses, so you can't insta buy the BIS sword from the last boss or something like that. I don't know. I just want to be capped out and blast m+ with friends.

[@FulMetallalchemist]

Excellent suggestions that wont happen because blizzard is stupid and/or for some reason cares about people that play the game as a job.

[@Moonwired]

I really hate this. The extra upgrade tracks don’t add any relative power at all, just an obscene amount of grind the greater disparity between hero and myth track is completely unnecessary. Plus the whole vault system is toxic af, praying you get the piece you want each week, and I’m 95% sure they manipulate the drops based on how much you play, like any online RPG does. Theres zero mathematical explanation for getting the same cloak five times in a row, one in a billion odds don’t happen week after week for an absurd amount of players on a 10 million player base, math just doesn’t work that way. It’s an algorithm designed to maximize your engagement.

[@perkulant4629]

It’s way better now with the three chances though. Easy to get full gear now, esp with crafts being so strong. Only 3 il lower.

[@bidu2331324]

Of course it's algorithmic. Why do you think they replaced the deterministic farming methods like emblems and valor vendor with a randomized loot box. The entire gear system is designed to drip feed you enough ilvl to keep you playing forever. Drop rates aren't fixed like they used to be.

[@mclarke4685]

If only they already had a system in place they could copy to just reduce the ilvl of mythic raid gear down in m+ Could also just cut aspect cap to be lower in early week and then scale up

[@AngryPomeranian]

that's genius

[@popojaga7312]

Probably raid fanatics would get a meltdown, may aswell just make that m+ gear, has +13ilvl during keys

[@Createk]

So essentially if you enjoy raiding and m+ you need to farm separate full gear sets for both, no thank you what a dogshit fucking take

[@lovelywaz]

I proposed the idea of separating M+ and Raid gear during Shadowlands. Make them scale down ilvl when zoning into the zone it wasn't sourced from. It was disliked or perhaps even hated by a LOT of usual suspect back then, along with the majority of who commented on my posts. Looks like times have changed and people have come to realize it will be the best thing, unless of course, Blizz gives MULTIPLE Mythic track gear obtainable from M+ just like Raids and that's obviously they are not interested in doing. Another issue of course is the lack to proper catch-up system for M+ Only players who, by every single passing week, lose one max ilvl item opportunity but in Raid it gets easier half way through the season to funnel gear and have one player fully decked with mythic tracked gear in a week or two.

[@capturedcarbon4405]

It's exactly how Challenge Modes worked synching the ilvl no matter what gear you had

[@olepoggenburg2839]

m+ needs a way to farm myth track items without the randomness and weekly lockout of the vault problem is that raiders will take this gear aswell. best solution is to shut off m+ gear in raid and raid gear in m+ like they allready did with pvp

[@cheeseorwhatever]

they keep talking about m+ as an endgame pillar but it's clear they think about the game in two ways: pve and pvp. If you're primarily engaging with pve, they absolutely expect you to both raid and do m+ and I'm not sure if that will ever change.

[@bejeta7]

I was going to focus more on M+ and just heroic raiding this exp too. I've gone through multiple guilds over the last two expansions from mythic raiding burnout. Mythic raids are just too difficult for a meaningful portion of the player base. It's too much like a job anymore, where it used to be fun. This change sucks :(

[@Poooopdollar]

This is my first season, in comparison to the last 3 expansions that I've been doing CE raiding, that I won't be raiding. Interested to see how quickly I fold and go back to raiding. Great content as always big dawg!

[@slayrx]

As someone who does not have the time to raid for hours, I will probably not return to retail. Sadly.

[@wowFTWwow1]

I think a good solution is unlocking mythic track gear to mythic+ at week 3 maybe (after world first race ends). And after Xal’atath revoked her bargains at +12 and above, myth track can start to drop. This way world first races cannot exploit the myth gearing from m+ and myth is hard since not everyone can reach 12 and above levels.

[@hobosnake1]

I agree. I dont mind being behind the pack a bit for being an m+ guy.

[@Bacon-egg-cheese]

I'm pretty sure the ilvl stuff we saw during beta was just us seeing updates happening in stages. PVP gear had a 632 pvp ilvl for most of beta which meant that at some point their intention was 632 was the max ilvl for pve gear which is why the crafted gear was 3 ilvls lower at 629 and then they changed max pve ilvl to 639 and then we saw them slowly update everything. I don't think they ever intended crafted gear to be 10 ilvls behind.

[@TeamRiveraHell]

I think it would be very interesting that, if you cleared +8 or higher, you could choose in the vault between the items or a mythic token, and this token when used, would make a hero track piece be mythic track during dungeons, similar to the pvp gear. So for example: if you chose the token you could convert a 6/6 hero track piece in to a 2/6 mythic track only inside dungeons, you could still use crest to upgrade the mythic track to 6/6. With this nothing changes for Raid players, but it reduces a lot the need to go to raids. If this is too slow, instead of having to choose between the token and the vault item, you could just get 1 of this a week from the vault with having to complete a +8 as requisite.

[@jesperwik998]

I feel like there is a category of losers not mentioned here. I generally raid HC because I don't want to commit to Mythic, I do some M+ on the side and 90% of my upgrades are always M+ gear, it's just easier to get hold of at a faster rate. Anything I might get from raiding is dead on arrival.

[@MegaDanishPride]

Almost in the same boat. I dont like raiding and dont usually raid HC until my guild has it on social farm. And then i do it only for specific items i cant get through m+.

[@brotholomew13]

On the issue of M+ only players not having much access to Myth track gear: I think a system somewhat like the Delve keys where you have a couple of chances per week to get a higher ilvl reward from the end of an M+ dungeon might be the right balance between being able to infinitely farm Myth track gear and praying that you'll get lucky in the great vault. Btw I'm not a raid hater, I'd love to Mythic raid but I don't really have the time to do it any more and every Mythic raiding guild I've ever been in has eventually died to roster boss.

[@typicalgymrat22]

i really like the suggestion that m+ gear should give +ilevel when you are in a dungeon, it would keep raider's happy and would make m+ gear the best for doing m+ or at least be on par, it would also help separate the end game contents and not make anyone feel like they have to do the other, pls implement this, i just can't be arsed to play wow with the current system making you feel like you are getting second hand trash for choosing to play m+ only

[@raechu_01210]

So it sounds like Blizzard should invert the current gear paradigm right? Raiders need gear early but don't need it to be perfect, and m+ers need gear later but need it to be perfect or close to it. So shouldn't raid be the fast easy source of lots of good gear, and m+ be the slow source of BiS gear?

[@TrungNguyen-yn9qh]

It's funny when you put the fast easy in it.

[@vaels5682]

They also want raid gear to have a slow gain over the course of the season, so they don't have to nerf the bosses and people use gear to overcome it

[@sackless1]

Good takes, I find raid to be the worst of the chores. I don't find any redeemable qualities that make it feel any more than a waste of time and a waste of effort to schedule. I'm midcore (3k ish) player and I just have to be resigned to staying there because I just won't commit 4-8 hrs a week to raiding and politicking.

[@ronodon18]

thats why m+ gearing system sucks you get to much good gear for to less effort i think it needs more something like an m+ extra stat for playing m+ instead off getting high itemlevel shit its also killing the interest in raiding if your gear depends to hard on weekly chest rewards instead of just getting some nice bosskills in raids

[@Frawt]

@@ronodon18 If the only way to keep interest in raiding is to have it have ridiculously disproportionately good gear, then raiding is not worth keeping around. As a Mythic raider myself, shut up and piss off.

[@bneva123]

Not raiding isn't stopping you from going beyond 3K.

[@sackless1]

@@bneva123 No one said it was. It's a team effort after all, but 3k is a fine stopping point if title isn't in the picture.

[@bneva123]

@@sackless1 for sure, and I wasn't trying to flame you or anything lol I don't really go past 3K as well since I have no interest in pushing keys BUT to me, your original post was saying that because you don't raid you can't go much further than 3K which isn't true.

[@shabaranks9710]

If it was easier to step into mythic raid and clear content it wouldnt be a problem but getting a consistant team to togerther is rough, and then making sure those people are bareble that u can spend multiple 1-3 hr sessons a week is rough. Idk what the answer is tbh i advocate for 10 MAN MYTHIC RAIDING OR FLEX ( theres alot of problems this would bring with hall of fame and avhives but eh imo itd be easier for players to get into the conent )

[@manog2105]

As a healer, both of my bis trinkets are m+ gated which is nice to get on hero track but will be difficult to get on myth track. It’s kind of nice imo cause I can get it on heroic and pop off irl when I get in vault

[@VigneAi]

M+ gear should increase 30-60ilv inside of M+ so those fucking raiders stop crying and we can actually play the game without being force to Raid and do it if its of our interest.

[@mobius4247]

How does this solve "fucking raiders crying"?

[@ryanpower1291]

I mean at that point just treat any gear like pvp gear for their respective content. But the problem is I think the majority of players do a bit of both and don't care and those that only do one of them are just a loud minority. But idk I don't have numbers to prove that

[@Impuracle]

@@mobius4247 because a lot of raiders "cry" about having to do M+ for more chances at loot? they wouldn't feel the need to if M+ gear only scaled to mythic item level inside dungeons and not raids, not unlike pvp gear.

[@mobius4247]

@@Impuracle maybe, but I read his comment without any sort of downgrading of current m+ ilvl, just adding another +30 ilvl in M+ on top of what it already does.

[@cookieforawookie]

I LIKE THIS

[@sp00g37]

I want a tier set for m+ and raid. Something that can replace each other while being different. Mix 2 and four sets. Give pvp its own tier set ir two. I like the idea that if you focus on one area, tou get good. But if you play whole rounded, you hit a conpletely different power spike. The person doing raids and mythic just get the same old gear, give dedicated players something big. Or create a mega dungeon only accessible at that high of an item level. Something the normy wouldnt care about, but serious incetive to serious players.

[@ZhiToobs]

lovely ideas straight from Tettles Yaeger

[@bidu2331324]

Rolling percent buff after x amount of weeks to players in the raid fixes this without nerfing mythic plus ilvl. Icc fixed this problem fifteen years ago. Wrt m plus gear affecting early raid prog you could just time gate the ilvl a few weeks or do heroic week.

They have to do something about this. As a player that has been around since vanilla beta, I did my raiding back when I was 20 - 25. Once M+ was introduced, Raids for me has been something I do once for story and then I step out. That M+ can't get to gear cap without raiding is just broken.

[@Mediiiicc]

So you think you should be just as geared as someone who puts in way more time/effort?

@@Mediiiicc absolutely not. It is entirely possible to put just as much effort into M+ as you can raiding. I just prefer the smaller group content over the larger group content and I think equally challenging content should be equally rewarded.

[@Koella94]

as a M+ title player i hate the fact that we get our endgame gear from the vault. it should be a nice weekly bonus, not the main (and only) way to get gear for m+. not only does it suck for your main char, it completely discourages starting to play an alt as you'd have to wait for 10+ weeks to get it up to speed. i think a system like in PvP would be much more fitting. you could buy "honor gear" from m0s and low-level m+. in mid and high m+ you could farm "conquest" (the higher the key the more points rewarded) up to a weekly increasing cap, from which you can then buy the endgame m+ gear. now this conquest gear could be mythic track gear as it's weekly capped anyways, and they could increase the cap slower for the first few weeks in order to not impact raid too much. or, we could downgrade all of the m+ gear tracks by 1 track, but then introduce a M+ item level similar to PvP item level. if the M+ ilvl is high enough above the mythic track ilvl, then maybe that would also finally solve having to get pieces from raid :P (first few weeks would still be very beneficial to do raiding to get a quicker start for those who want to) maybe the trinkets would still be a problem ... let there be a conquest item that we can use on any trinket with a M+ ilvl, to give them a set bonus that only works in M+! also if there's a legendary ... for the love of god please let us obtain it through some other (additional) way than raid

[@Mas-ij3ti]

If raiders should not have to do M+ to raid, M+ players should not have to do raids to do M+, simple as that.

[@okCool51]

Its not simple since raiding is much harder and thus has to be more rewarding, why would any1 raid then? You have 3k rio Players wiping in hc raids... like m+ is just too easy for comparable gear. It doesnt work if the reward doesnt Equal the effort.

[@KiLoB0-WoW]

@@okCool51 3k players are like a dime a dozen. Is wiping on the same boss over and over again hoping that the group can finally move out of a circle really that hard? Aside from rwf where they are litterally making the strategies, is raid *really* that difficult? No.

[@KiLoB0-WoW]

@@okCool51what key level are you doing? 17+ is definitely not “too” easy to be getting the best gear in the game. That is too 1% and better players.

[@okCool51]

you guys dont get it, you can literally pug m+ for the highest rewards... it would have to be insane high m+ keys for Mythic Raid loot level. And the People who would do these keys are doing Mythic Raids anyway most likely. M+ is easy because it only need 5 random people and its only a stat check with easy mechanics with increasing keys. I dont even Raid, i can only gear with m+ too since i dont have that much time.

[@MrZhaw]

@@okCool51 link armory?

[@panda8bamboo161]

Then just scale down mythic track gear to 526ilvl in M+ dungeons. So that m+ players don’t feel like they have to raid and remove vault and add a bad loot protection system. Also add weekly capped currency to purchase sockets that you can earn from doing delves, m+, and raid. Idk, there’s so many ways to go around this without both groups feeling like that have to do both end game content.

[@theprocter4176]

What if they made the first 8 or so +12 or higher you did each week drop myth track gear in m+ to sort of mimic the raid? It’s not infinitely farmable but you get the same amount of chances each week as raiders do at myth track gear.

[@justinburley6000]

The whole 3 chest thing would probably make a really shitty environment where people aren't gonna waste their "good drops" each week on anything less and bail at the first hiccup.

[@skyfuller7535]

I think a solution to this problem would be to make maximum ilvl gear accessible through any route: delves, raid, m+, crafting, and most importantly faction reputation. I think the biggest reason people get upset is because of how different raiding is from M+, but having options like delve/reputation/crafting you can have variety to play the game. Honestly the only people who probably still won’t be happy are mythic raiders, but they are a minority compared to the amount of people that would be able to enjoy reaching the ilvl cap in their own unique ways.

[@kennethho8259]

Totally agreed. In my opinion mythic raid bosses should all just drop 1/6 myth track gears (even the last bosses as they will be naturally farmed for cosmetics/mounts/bis trinkets/weapons anyway). Mythic raiders are already getting myth track gears in a much quicker pace than m+ players (having both boss drops + vault), not to mention bis trinkets/weapons being locked behind mythic raids), and the returned weekly buffs to players in raids already making the bosses to get easier every week. The increased item level of gears from boss drops is totally unnecessary especially when there is already the crest acquisition cap implemented to limit the item level raise from dungeon spamming. If they consider the gear progression too slow, they could always increase the crest weekly cap so that both raiders and m+ players benefit. Or if they consider there to be not enough attractions to mythic raiding, it would be much better to imo add more mythic raid only cosmetics to wing bosses.

[@Xerus35]

The ideal solution is simply to make m+ gear a separate line of gear, like pvp gear. m+ gear shouldn't work in raids and raid gear shouldn't work in m+.

[@deesul4134]

Love your content and I appreciate your contribution to the community. Unfortunately do to the amount of frustration and punishment this season I am removing all my subs from my KZbin. I get so much anxiety and frustration from M+ and the 8 +10 keys, 90 crests, and the dozens of hours needed just to have a spot on a raid team or to get into a raid team. Gearing is not enjoyable and I've left a couple guilds just because of how they distribute gear. I spend 20 minutes getting into keys and then they fail. After a couple hours of having other people fail the key I am overwhelmingly frustrated and I cannot outplay other players failures. M+ is too punishing and required too much. I hate spending hours getting no reward every week and then filling my vault just to be disappointed. I need to take a break and I'm removing all my subs just so I dont' get reminded of the game. I'll probably come back when things change, but for now I need to purge this punishing game out of my life. Thank you for all you do big dawg

[@Tettles]

o7. I appreciate the support over the years. Cya when you return.

[@algreen1]

Why is the buff only based on attendance to the raid? It should be increasing for ALL in the raid for each week the raid was out. Otherwise, high attendance means unbeatable dps, tanking health or healing... tell me I have got this wrong.

[@thickums8198]

You have it wrong, there is going to be a catchup system that will get you up to the level of everyone else if you come in late. Similar to bullions in DF 4. Haven’t raided in weeks? Bullions rain down like candy. The buff will be similar - the quest turn in will drop more the longer it’s been since you raided.

[@KiLoB0-WoW]

I guess if they really want to keep raid gear “special”… blizz could implement some kind of gear scaling like how it works for pvp gear. Perhaps some kind of special effect you can purchase for a certain currency that you only get from m+ that will scale that gear up only when in m+. Maybe fully upgraded hero gear to full myth? Idk. They would need to time gate the currency for sure. Think how pvp players get their crafted gear to be scaled up in pvp. I still think there needs to be some kind of way for m+ players to target specific or farm a currency like bullions to get myth track items, maybe how bullion worked.

[@lucid9949]

m+ only players get treated like 2nd hand citizens. always been like this, blizzard doesnt care about us. this is one reason i enjoyed playing fellowship, and will play it on release, because i dont like being treated like trash, where blizzard prefers giving hard bis to raiders

[@hobosnake1]

I liked shadowlands season 4 when you could get basically 95% bis just from mythic plus. I think thats fine. SLIGHT and SMALL advantage to raiders is ok.

[@lucid9949]

@@hobosnake1 how is a slight and small advantage to raiders ever okay? thats like saying a slight advantage to PVP players who do m+ is okay to m+ only players. thats atrocious game design. having to do PVP in like shadowlands season 1 for BIS items is really design, and treats m+ only players like trash m+ is literally harder than mythic raid, because it scales infinitely. raiders shouldnt get a monolopy on bis. in shadowlands, the gap between m+ only and raiders was even worse than in df. your example is horrible

[@hobosnake1]

@@lucid9949 sorry, but it is not hard at all to do pre-change +15 in shadowlands. In fact, those dungeons are incredibly easy. Raiding takes getting 20+ people together in one place and having them all do their job. Mythic plus I can just tard-stomp with friends. If I got bis in there, that's just unfair. Free bis printer at that point.

[@lucid9949]

@@hobosnake1 the roster boss is not something that should reward bis. just because its harder to get lots of ppl together shouldnt mean it should give bis or is difficult content its hard to get thousands of people to kill city leaders, but that shouldnt give bis either m+ scales infinitely. m+ in shadowlands was harder than anything in raid, because it scaled infinitely i never said or implied that +15's in sl was hard to do. maybe try not strawmanning me

[@okCool51]

You compare M+ to Mythic Raids? The Gap of these 2 modes is just too big for same rewards, it doesnt make sense. It would be insane to hand out bis gear for the easy content

[@vanp2640]

I think the biggest thing missed even from tettles is that mythic raid is tuned for being in full heroic gear but when you get to even a 13 or 14 the scaling is assuming your essentially full bis or nearing it. the difficulty of keys isn’t even comparable until a few levels higher, you can say people don’t push early but you have to wait 10-12 weeks playing vault opening sim before you’re even allowed to start pushing ASSUMING you’re incredibly lucky so the solution then is make 6-8 of the same characters and just pray 1 gets lucky.

[@calumbir]

Just do that 'Bullion?' system from s4 every time. It won't affect the farming as you still need to upgrade it all, but at least you know you have your item on myth track

[@polkhigh_33]

And here's the easy fix to this dillema: Instance based ilvl boosts. Example: If you drop a 613 hero track item in M+, its 613 in raids, pvp and the open world, but gets scaled up by +13 ilvl during a dungeon. This way, hero track m+ gear would rival mythic raid gear when doing keys and vice versa. Which would greatly reduce the urge to do the content youre not interested in for both m+ grinders and raid progressers. And on a sidenote, this would solve the issue of delve rewards being way too strong for the low challenge they provide. And here's why this easy fix wont happen: 1) Complainers would keep complaining: Yes, if you wanna play raid, pvp and m+ at reasonably high levels, you'd have to maintain three gearsets. Boohoo. 2) And thats the big one: Blizz loves fomo. Fomo generates playtime. They dont want you to feel done for the week after you filled your prefered vault row. And they especially dont want to expose how many people would actually continue raiding without the urge of getting raid exclusive drops like special jewelry or weapons.

[@ReatuKrentor]

If the problem is that M+ is a loot pinata and therefore Blizzard can't have mythic track gear from M+, solve that by making heroic and mythic track gear from M+ limited. Have M+ only drop veteran and champion gear and then have personal loot tokens that upgrade the dungeon champion gear to heroic. And another token that takes it from heroic to mythic at appropriate dungeon difficulties. These tokens would be limited to 2 per week(and no catchup), as on average each player would have approx. 1.6 pieces of gear from raid per week. Heroic tokens could drop from 8's onwards and mythic from 12's as an example. Doing 8 of appropriate level should net you the 2 tokens guaranteed.

[@speaknoevil7697]

or...scaling gear in m+. Boom. Fixed. Like pvp

[@nick11925]

hope this gets addressed in future patches/expansions

[@filecro6934]

what do you think if they made m+ gear like pvp gear, for example m+ gear would be static 580(example) when in any other content besides m+, but in m+ it would scale to 639 ilvl. i think that would satisfy everyone except raiders that gear via m+ early on cuz that's the best way to get gear early

[@CH-es1ri]

They make the game way worse for way more players in order to cater to the tiny grievances of the tiny minority

[@Gats_B]

I might genuinely agree with the raiders more so since the game is an RPG first and the story will always focus mostly on the raid element as it evolves. Rewarding tier strictly through the story is pretty fundamental to that story. People play the game a specific way (like a lobby sim modern zoomer style) and that has historically been a side-car to the main elements of the game. The problem is much larger than you think and this balancing act is probably their best approach in preserving the identity of the game itself. I just don't see how they can increase the value of m+ to match raiding with all things to be considered.

[@josephpoole3942]

M+ players have always only been able to get myth track from the weekly vault. Its always been unfair but i dont see what the new issue is. Its more of the same.

[@Z-note17]

This was the same last season though. As someone who never has done mythic raid I've always been "beholden to the vault". Thankfully the catalyst system is a thing! Save them catas for mythic track drops!

[@rosco3]

I wish they made the vault give all the items fully filled. So for example you would choose the M+ reward and get all 3 chests that you've farmed. I get that M+ is repeatable and thus enabling Mythic level gear makes degenerate farming possible which they don't like. But getting ONE item per week is a joke, raid gets way more (drops + chest)

[@michaelwaffle7393]

How much of the player base do these mythic raid gear changes actually effect though? Is it maybe better for the 90-99% but worse for the 10-1%? Or does it trickle all the way down? Also, if you’re a mythic raider you should be able to also complete +12 and above keys so why not make it drop from there at the same level of raid gear… Like +12 gives 1/6 myth, +13 2/6 myth +14 3/6 myth +15 4/6 myth from the vault and then high heroic from end of dungeon, like 5/6 hero or something like that

[@Tettles]

Well it affects 100% of mythic raiders for the better.

[@wapniak666]

​@@Tettlesis it for the better tho? Sure you get higher ilvl gear in the long term but being forced to do keys at the start of the season is exactly the same problem as being forced to raid for higher ilvl gear

[@janpetira2509]

Well i am gonna stick to pvp only then. M+ was my only way of gearing, raiding is too time consuming and restrictive for a parent.

[@Korksbebig]

Which is why those who can actually get it done, get the higher ilvl and you as a parent shouldn't care about being the max ilvl in a video game. How in the world are you this dense? Your ilvl being maxed isn't clearing your key time. You will be fine in max key gear, and you will have zero problems. Boohoo you are not the top ilvl in the game oh wow.

[@janpetira2509]

@@Korksbebig That´s a very defeatist mindset. Why would you then even care about pushing the highest keys like +30. Atleast in DF the ilvl was roughly similar, now it´s practically required to raid to push for the highest ones.

[@psyonicpanda]

Wish they made M+ gear have an M+ scaling and raid gear have a raid scale the same way PvP works.

[@speaknoevil7697]

this has been echoed by probably 10k people at this point. Blizzard are scumbags, they want to force people in to raid. That's it

[@CyrilFrantzen]

So what youre saying is that they should release raids a month ahead of M+ season so raiders dont need to spam M+ because well.. its not there yet, and by the time M+ season starts raid is on farm anyway… That would also alleviate the devs need to tune raid content with m+ spam in mind! Great suggestion!!!

[@xxkyky]

Hey @tettles do you know how to mute the starsurge sound? I cant find the appropriate sound file name

[@dakodastevens8972]

I think they could just add a token you can buy from the M+ vendor the same way you buy sockets that upgrades your gear one track. Either make it cost like 9 tokens (so you can get 2 per 3 vaults) or make it cost 6, but only allow you to buy 3ish per character.

[@UnsaveHaven]

Just add a item level cap for m+ rising each week and give us mythic track item from +12 to +14 or so.

[@thisissnow3543]

Why don't they just create different gear tracks after hitting a 10+ key the gear only works for Mythic+ similar to PvP gear only working in specified game modes. It won't completely kill cross PvE gear but makes it so people can get gear faster for high level keys without interfering with raid.

[@phillipschmidt6295]

Tettles, you're great but that pic gives really strong dad vibes, and it looks good.

[@Kamia2003]

I don’t see this as a problem other than the size of the gap. The game should reward those who cover all forms of high end content more than those who only focus on one. It shows more value to more time commitment. The time chart you drew fits that design also. If m plus could push the highest keys way earlier then skilled players would be less encouraged to raid which brings in viewership. There has to be some kind of treadmill to keep the game alive. It doesn’t have to be farm simulator but also not ever player should be reaching absolute bis each season let alone 2-10 weeks into a patch.

[@Stouf711]

Imagine if you don't have the time or want to join a 20 man mythic raid team, but still want to play with your friends in 5 & 10 man's and be completely withholden to getting your mythic track pieces solely from the vault. No😂w imagine bad rng on top of that..

[@Magiczwow]

Make the item levels of the drops the same, except m+ gear gains 13 ilvl (one difficulty jump worth of ilvl in the raid) when in dungeons.

[@dandycadent]

There are plenty of options to weight gear relative to the content so nobody feels force to do content they don't want to. It is obvious that M+ is turning into a game of its own, just like pvp, probably way more popular though (but this is just a guess). It seems to me that the only thing that prevents blizz from addressing the issue is just design philosophy. They probably believe this would be bad for subs or something along those lines. I could of course be wrong and in the end doing so would just redirect people to complain about something else ^^;

[@slaintwice]

So if i don't raid righy away ill be permanently behind everyone else in this threads buff?

[@iyaramonk]

The raid probably wouldn't have to be tuned as hard if players couldn't farm m+ all day for gear. Another side effect is that it trivializes the fuck out of heroic raiding. People just come in way overgeared. It would be clunky but just separate the gear after m0 or something.

[@Bacon-egg-cheese]

My take for some time now is they accidentally had the perfect system for giving M+ players a non-vault avenue for mythic ilvl gear back in BFA with visions reward structure. Specifically the part where it had a weekly or whatever it was lockout but you could continue gaining rewards as you increased the difficulty via masks. You could adapt that same system for M+, even better now that the 12+ range is its own thing. Keep 2-11 exactly the same as it is now, gears infinitely farmable etc etc etc... and then when Knaifu's BDSM kicks in at 12+ the reward structure swaps to something more like visions where you can only get loot once a week or every few days or something *per level* you push but its on the myth track. This encourages players to push as high as they possibly can for that next opportunity at the best loot, but adds a much needed loot lockout (not content lockout, you'd still be able to do them without reward if you didn't want to push up that next level). This would give a reasonable avenue for M+ players to get myth track loot on a lockout so its not infinitely farmable via spamming a trivial difficulty while promoting / rewarding pushing, and all of this only affects players pushing the highest and most challenging content without affecting your average player. You could also keep the bit like visions where if you did a higher difficulty you'd get your pull at rewards from lower ones, which means later in the season when we're already decked out and say we can do a higher level like 18 or whatever but there's that one item that just hasn't dropped yet we can do our one dungeon and potentially get pulls from 12 - 17 and as a group we see a little loot explosion where we all pray for that elusive item without needing to manually run every lower level which would suck. To me this seems like it'd address a lot of the problems in a healthy way while giving M+ players a path, but iono maybe I'm missing a pitfall somewhere.

[@Gorthaal]

Yeah not everyone wants to raid, but I understand why blizzard wants to force people to raid. But can’t we have some amount of targeting in the vault???

[@jeanlandry69]

It's one thing to want people to raid, it's another to force them raid in mythic mode. My guild doesn't have 20 players, let alone 20 players up for mythic, so we do heroic raids. But we have some players which want to push mythic+. They basically screwed us with those 2 added levels.

[@k9tirion927]

"Forcing" is a strong word here, you really don't need that gear until you push to be a title contender in which case you very likely got the time anyways. They need a incentive to go through the trouble and get 20 people together, otherwise even players that like raiding will just go with the path of least resistance and farm M+.

[@dionysues7449]

@@k9tirion927sounds like raiding is the issue if you have to change the game constantly to incentivize raiding. In contrast, M+ players willfully engage with the content even after gear is maxed because they enjoy M+.

[@jeanlandry69]

@@k9tirion927 Until now, we could get M2 gear in the vault and bring it to max with 30 crest. Now it will require 75. 2,5 timed dungeon vs 6,25. That's a lot for non pro player.

[@k9tirion927]

@@dionysues7449 It's asinine to argue raiding players only do it for the loot while the wholesome m+ players would m+ all day if there was no reward lol, I do both at a fairly high level and they're not that different in the first place. But with gearing being a decently big part of WoW, it simply feels "right" for the reward structure of the game to give you something in return for organizing 20 instead of 5 players and having weekly locked instead of farmable content.

[@Mockra_]

Is there a reason M+ gear needs to be infinitely farm-able? Why can't it be on a lockout system to mirror raid? After doing a 12 or higher of a dungeon for the week, you get a chance at a Myth track piece from that dungeon. Great vault doesn't need to be touched since it mirrors raid.

[@speaknoevil7697]

because then we get even less loot.

[@NBCatch22]

Tettes was right, hard wall for non mythic raiders. You can’t get a pug group above 8, even with maxed score, week over week it gets worse as your always playing from behind in Ilevel.

[@fatbuux]

They should have Myth track gear as a chance on +12 and higher. Make it worth the challenge.

[@dangauthier5711]

Some creators use paint but this man is a man of culture. He uses Adobe illustrator 😎 fine choice good sir.

[@MegaDanishPride]

Maybe they should implement the PvP solution. Gear that increases to max ilvl while in dungeon. That would fix the ilvl problem but not the trinket/special item issue. :P (This was a joke. would hate if that happened)

[@semph1s629]

forcing people that like to only push high m+ keys to do mythic raid is the worst change they have made, not surprised they ignore all the people hating on it. keep making videos about this trash Tettles, make all other content creators do the same so they change this shit back

[@4everdex]

8:52 In what Interview? :D

[@subby1933]

true wtf

[@antons7210]

I don't understand why they can't separate the two? Give us more gear from raids and make M+ it's own thing like PVP. Everyone's happy

[@mattery24]

Maybe I’m smoothbrained but I still don’t get it. Isn’t this the same issue we’ve always had? Myth track items come from mythic raid and the vault so if you M+ only you have to get lucky with the vault. That’s always been the case. Yes there’s a bigger gap between maxed heroic and maxed myth track loot. But that just makes this a difference of degree not of kind. And all this notwithstanding the fact that it’s always a question of whether raid trinkets are good or not. Lastly, isn’t it an actual improvement for M+ players that all myth track gear goes to 6/6 now and we don’t have a few uniquely high ilvl pieces from mythic raid?

[@k9tirion927]

While progressing through the upgrade levels the gap isn't even larger than before in practice.

[@Golikol369258]

It has always been the case. It was always the same issue since M+ started. There was always a difference in ilvl between M+ and mythic raids. Why is it now a problem? Well easy, it gives clicks. Why make a 10 minute video and a graphic which makes barely any sense? (I mean, if for M* it is important to push as high as possible, then you will do that in the beginning as well so the ilvl there will always be at least at the same importance as for mythic raiders (the early you push high ,the better you ilvl gets - also for m+). The video just sounds smart, but on its foundation it has a wrong graphical expression and talks about a problem which is there for ages.

[@eaalders628]

Because in DF the difference between heroic and mythic gear was only 6 ilvls fully upgraded, that'll be 13 now. A M+ only player will have several gear pieces at -13 ilvl and that disparity is actually quite big. Mythic raiders will also have access to more 6/6 myth pieces and will require less aspect crests to upgrade them (the vault will reward 1/6 myth track gear), while the mythic raid will reward 2/6 - 6/6 track myth track gear. Overall these changes are very bad for M+ only players because they will be behind mythic raiders for a majority of the patch, it's very rare to fill every slot with vault gear and the heroic slots will be significantly worse relative to myth gear.

[@eaalders628]

@@Golikol369258 What are you even talking about man, the graphic in the thumbnail illustrates the problem perfectly...

[@jonlane6527]

@@eaalders628 But why does it matter? I mean Mythic raiding has always been the pinnacle. As someone whos in a mythic raiding guild who also pushes keys I get it. Players want to interact with the content they enjoy and be able to compete with others. But there's ALWAYS been ways to min max. And that will continue regardless whether ilvl gear is -6 or -13. IMO the pinnacle of content has always been mythic raiding and should remain so. And people are really undervaluing just how long it takes to fully gear in mythic raiding only. So this change barely affects most people until maybe 3-4 weeks to a month into the season.

[@amethonys2798]

If they don't want to change M+ gear they should at least change raid gear. The first 3-4 bosses should be removed from myth track. No one can actually defend loot pinatas like Gnarlroot or Kazzara are harder than a +15 key yet Gnarlroot dropped the best weapon for casters barring very rares.

[@unsteddy92]

loved m+ gearing in dragonflight, saw this change during beta and quit M+. For raiders that play M+ this sounds great.. but this just isnt for me.

[@Trunka34]

If mythic raid didnt have better gear, noone would do it. I certainly wouldnt. I want the best gear.

[@squishyflapz9074]

mythic + should just cap ilevel to the max u can achieve from mythic plus similiar to how challenge modes capped ilevel in bfa/mop so raiding gear can have unique trinkets effects without having an advantage due to ilevel alone but "advantage" mythic level raiders to a light extent without being basically mandatory

[@Ningishzidd4]

Can't they scale down the 639 gear while in M+ dungeon?

[@SunniestAutumn]

Okay, so, if I understand this correctly, it's just the same system as Dragonflight, except that crafted gear is usable and Myth track has two more levels, which makes upgrading gear to their absolute highest take 30 more crests? I understand the psychology behind being annoyed about this, but I don't really see this as... well, saying "big deal" would overplay the impact of this. I don't see this as anything that's worth thinking about. If there's a disparity, it's in raid-exclusive trinkets and tier sets being necessary in Mythic+, but those aren't anything new and this change doesn't really alter the disparity in any meaningful way. Like, I get it. Getting gear capped takes longer as Mythic+ only player. Let's say we try to fix this. If we make high level M+ keys reward Myth track gear, the pendulum swings too far in the other direction, with M+ being infinitely farmable. We could nerf Mythic raid gear to Hero Track outside of the Great Vault drops, but I wonder if anyone here would actually be for that. That just sounds wrong. So, yes, there is a problem. This change's impact on the size of the problem is negligible. Let's actually think of reasonable solutions.

[@edgyguy7084]

I think Blizzard WANTS to kill M+. First they make M+ far more difficoult AND THEN let them drop far worse gear, which in turn makes u less likely to survive. Oh, and lets not forgett that each death now subtracts three times the time it did before...

[@GCDChronicles]

Yeah, why WOULD people committing to 2-3 evenings of their week every week, dealing with 19 other people, to defeat 8 pixel foes that drop loot once a week have some kind of advantage over the players who play the game whenever they want to with 4 other people in a spammable game mode? Makes sense.

[@BerriesDangle]

8:52 Tettles I am trying to figure what you meant to say but damn, you left this in?

[@PossiblyJustARandomGuy]

It's wild to me that they prioritize a gearing system that favors raiding when far more people engage with M+.

[@linaori]

Been saying this since early SL, people always told me to stop complaining and that the ilvl difference doesn't matter. Glad to see it's finally being brought up more generally.

[@zenith_journey]

m+ scaling gear (like pvp gear) is the most obvious solution. but blizzard likes the dynamic between the two... unfortunately for us m+ players...

[@wapniak666]

It goes both ways, there are plenty of raiders feeling exactly the same

[@michaelmoran2125]

I gotta say it, only max made mention of this. The fact that m+ affixes stay the same after 12 is so clueless. Play for two months and quit for sure now.

[@JTB1512]

has blizzard thought about putting a max ilvl cap to m+, similar to PVP, so "raid players" cant have an ilvl advantage over m+ players? this seems like the solution

[@goodthings7317]

I 90% m+ when I play wow, I couldn’t care less about all this. I dont expect to be max geared in the first month