TF2: Buffing The Spy

[@HeyGrouch]

Yep, this is a re-upload. Don't tell anybody. It'll be our secret.

[@498D40]

What happened

[@eugeniaamariei8626]

Sir, the second tf2 balance video has been re-uploaded.

[@iamewp]

Why did you do ti!!!

[@mrstudent9125]

Why?

[@thecluckster3908]

What happened?

[@meowmew-]

I actually like the sprint change. It’s useful for Spy if he’s disguised as a tougher class but he has to be careful with it to avoid exposing himself. If it were possible I’d also make him able to mimic engineer hauling a building by pressing reload while disguised as an Engie with the wrench out.

[@HeyGrouch]

That'd be a great change!

[@TahirTheMan]

the sprint thing is also implemented in tf2 classic, its called spywalk

[@namelessmedicmain]

@@TahirTheManYeah, to be fair it's not Grouch who made it up. It's also on FishStickOnAStick's server. Didn't know it was also in TF2 Classic though. Thanks for the information, will make sure to use it next time I play TFC.

[@SSmiggless]

"mr. president he done did it again... again"

[@Pseudo_Notfound]

"I thought the "zesty jesus" plan had worked the first time... and the next time!"

[@Subatimicopassaro]

A second grouch rebalance video hit the front page... Yet again

[@HeyGrouch]

_"Alert parliament to leave the kitchen... A madman is cooking in there..."_

[@Randomperson10083]

@@HeyGrouchyou should make it so that the enforcer ignores sentries revolver resistance while being sapped

[@vanta8975]

@@Randomperson10083as an engineer main please absolutely don’t 😢

[@james7919]

- Entered the kitchen - Burnt the damn kitchen to the ground - Whole restaurant went wild - Didn't get discouraged - Rebuilt the kitchen - Cooked a 5 star meal - Hell yeah.

[@jacksontyrrell5181]

Yippee 😀

[@dustin202]

RTR buffs

[@imtoolazyforaprofilepic4961]

Just because he didn't get discouraged it doesn't mean the kitchen isn't still on fire or that he miraculously made a 5* meal.

[@javonyounger5107]

5-star? Let's not get crazy.

[@the_epic_buckethead]

My favorite part of this video was when grouch said "it reuploadin time" and reuploaded all over the place and inflicted bleed on everyone

[@HeyGrouch]

Just you wait until I add bleed to a blast weapon. Just you wait.

[@the_epic_buckethead]

@@HeyGrouch cant wait for ulapool basher

[@AntiDragon]

@@HeyGrouch add bleed to the medigun

[@GunSpyEnthusiast]

@@HeyGrouch That's called shrapnel.

[@Spycrabs137]

Dear lord in heaven

[@TeslaX106]

Actually cooked on the enforcer rework this time.

[@HeyGrouch]

🔥🔥

[@maxwell_edison]

IMO enforcer can be made better simply by following in line with how the current weak version *could* work, and what it should be meat to achieve; The disguised damage buff is interesting but just useless how it works by default. If we make it so the Spy gets 2-3 shots with the empowered damage, and also slightly buff the attack speed when firing out of disguise, it'd be weaker most of the time still but it could be used as a Pick weapon when you get caught out by a stray, weaker enemy in backlines. Think about it: A scout comes around while you are running through the backlines, he looks you DEAD IN THE EYES, and you unload 3 shots into him before he can get to a medpack and kill him. Those 3 shots are fired slightly faster and deal more damage than the normal enforcer, more than the revolver. We put this on a timer, so the spy CANNOT "save" these shots - Either unload 3 empowered shots directly into an enemy when disguised as a desperate attempt to get away, or suffer the current penalty. IMO this gives the enforcer real-game use cases as a backup weapon that isn't as strong normally but gives the Spy opportunity to escape and win in 1v1 picks where he's discovered while disguised. The weapon just needs more than 1 shot to do it, because 1 shot is lame regardless of damage.

[@Berd-Wasted.]

​@@maxwell_edison I simply wondered by buffing the Enforcer by REMOVING the cloak remove on shot penalty. Just give a cooldown between each shot.

[@Linkman8912]

@@Berd-Wasted. Nah, that would be either too busted, or wouldn't do shit.

[@Jpeg_skeleton]

The only other thing i could think off was letting you keep disguise while firing but it has a damage penalty.

[@matttheninja990]

-Creates server for people to enjoy funny weapons changes -Receive lots of hate comments -Takes it like a champ and keep making cool changes -Refuses to elaborate

[@HeyGrouch]

I think the Darwins Danger Shield speaks for itself lol

[@matttheninja990]

​@@HeyGrouchthat change is the best one ngl, its so freaking cool, idk why some people went mad at it

[@meepmerp6935]

@@matttheninja990 In my opinion it should instead damage the sniper every time he jumps, or further reduce max ammo to prevent spam-use

[@butlazgazempropan-butan11k87]

He recirved hate comments because he made the first video look like a proposal to how you can balance tf2 weapons.

[@irgendwer3610]

that's how you do youtube, you need to have a thick skin

[@SirJad_]

put 8 seconds of bleed on the construction PDA

[@PlatinumAltaria]

Jarate now also inflicts bleed because of the shards of broken glass (BUFFED)

[@coomcharger6105]

​@@PlatinumAltaria Nah that makes too much sense

[@lunasagaming5801]

@@PlatinumAltaria every throwable jar just becomes the wrap assassin

[@SuS32364]

Rocket jumper now inflicts bleed because… i actually dont know i want to make damage with the rocket jumper (BUFFED)

[@VivianWasntHere]

@@PlatinumAltariaLes Bean

[@ink-T]

This enforcer is so so so much better than the one you did before

[@NeonBlueLight]

The bleed enforcer was such a hilarious balance 😂. Like all things considered though, that enforcer would theoretically be Spy's best ranged option. Though at the same time, I'd rather just use the Amby at that point.

[@thesurfacepen]

nah bring back the 8 seconds of bleed 😭

[@MarioLuigi0404]

@@NeonBlueLightin what world is no damage and a useless DoT spy’s best ranged weapon what

[@NeonBlueLight]

@@MarioLuigi0404 The kind of world where you're picking off an enemy from a long distance to where the falloff is massive. Bleed damage doesn't have fall off. But also I said theoretically, not actually (the unnerfed crit diamondback and ambassador does that job well) Regardless, I'm saying the concept is okay, but the "execution" (no pun intended) is very bad. If he *wanted* to go this route I'd suggest to decrease the damage nerf and make it function like the flying gullotine where it has no base damage fall-off or ramp-up and it still has that bleed effect, just so it's less polarizing. And maybe to top it off, increase the ammo capacity, the ammo reserve, and maybe have it pierce resistance just like the old enforcer. At least then it would have some niche with a bit more practicality. By no means am I saying his previous rendition is a good weapon.

[@SnugWugs137]

Not enough bleed on hit, though.

[@mrstudent9125]

I hope you gave bleed to every weapon.

[@HeyGrouch]

One day...... One day.....

[@El.fish.the.chocolate]

Now I want that the last video of this series would be an april fools were you say that you would revert all the changes and put bleed in every weapon. And say afterward that you are serious... The community would be split... Again...

[@ammi5311]

​@@HeyGrouchi. A serious manner, there's the potential direction found breaking melee as dying wish instead of lucky 1 shot . That's another indirect buff to spy .

[@Hennns]

You forgot about another use of red tape. If you’re following an engineer holding a building, you can bait them into placing down their building to fight you. If you sap the building as soon as it’s placed down, it almost instantly gets destroyed because it starts reverting at the same point it’s constructing in. Very niche, but cool.

[@HeyGrouch]

That's true, that was an awesome feature

[@luk4323]

​@@HeyGrouchwas

[@OmegaRC59]

If you really fish for it, it's a surprisingly applicable upside, I've gotten it to happen 3 times in a match of swiftwater before

[@godofportal5905]

@@HeyGrouch WAS???? THEY FIXED IT???

[@ammi5311]

​@@godofportal5905English moment, why don't you try in game instead .

[@scp096butreallife]

Gun spy using enforcer truly is a "THIS TOWN AINT BIG ENOUGH FOR THE TWO OF US!!!" moment 9/22/2024 edit: yo bro ur server is dead there's nobody online

[@HeyGrouch]

Absolutely, and I love it

[@scp096butreallife]

@@HeyGrouch I'm "Anthropomorphic SCP-939" from in grouchland, I'm sure you remember me saying that in chat lol

[@TheKingreiko]

I hope no one is being too mean. In the end theorising balance changes can be about fun and trying different stuff. I like the idea of the enforcer change.

[@HeyGrouch]

Thanks! Mean comments don't get to me, don't worry :) It's just the internet doing what the internet does

[@dumbvillage9253]

Still high respect to you for admitting some of your wrongs.

[@HeyGrouch]

thanks :) nobody's perfect!

[@drmarioprojectm1510]

@@HeyGrouch An alternate rework for the Enforcer that could work, is fixing the bug that prevents the Enforcer from doing extra damage to enemies with the Pain Train out, and lowering the damage bonus from +20% while disguised, to a flat +15% damage bonus that is in effect at all times regardless, and it can still pierce resistances, fires slower, and can't get random crits. Making it a serviceable counter to those pesky Vaccinator Medics without being annoying to fight.

[@ThatGuy89002]

Here's a real neat fun fact: Kunais were never actually used as throwing knives given the fact they are too damn heavy and tend to thumble when thrown, kunais are so bad at being projectile weapons that nobody actually used them for throwing. Instead Shinobis often used to use Kunais as stabbing weapons given the fact they're pointy and extremely sharp since they are used to deal with roots (double fun fact: Kunais are gardening tools) So Spy is actually one of the very few people in gaming that actually uses Kunais in the right way.

[@Goblinboyo162]

“I honestly thought I was buffing this thing by giving it one shot-“ no.

[@Goblinboyo162]

I like the new enforcer though

[@Mastercheap]

Yeah, kinda get what he was going with, but a lot of the downside was just unnecessary and only useful at annoying the sniper.

[@pr0ph3t_n3xus8]

I think a neat idea would see the spy able to hold the reload key to mimic secondary class characteristics, such as a heavy revving up, a sniper scoping in, an engie carrying buildings, or all classes reloading. Of course the caveat is that the spy does not suffer the movement penalties of revving or scoping, and reloading happens indefinitely, so anyone paying attention can sniff them out.

[@HeyGrouch]

Absolutely amazing idea!!!!

[@pr0ph3t_n3xus8]

@randomguy152-hk8fi Yes, but this effect is lackluster in the base game. First, you must be disguised without a full revolver, forcing you to purposely enter hot zones without your max ammo all for the hope that faking a janky reload (As the reload animation will cut once your actual reload is done) will be enough to dissuade observant enemy gamers. With this change, you would be able to do full reloads + secondary class characteristic actions that can dissuade both observant and unobservant gamers if used well, with the caveat of damning your cover if used poorly.

[@queueuof]

ive always liked the idea of an alternate disguise kit that only lets you disguise as scout, medic, sniper but you can mimic their actions (run speed as scout, fake heal teammates, aim down sights on sniper)

[@clayengi69]

it already exist reload your revolver actually mimic the disguise reload animation

[@pr0ph3t_n3xus8]

@@clayengi69 read my first reply

[@awesomesmileyguy]

"In practice, the forester's frogskin really isn't that crazy" >Refuses to elaborate in any way After seeing the end part of the video, I understand what you're trying to do. However, both the title and the content of your 'fixing' video did NOT make it clear you were just experimenting for personal, wacky, all-out fun. It would have been very easy to use a pinned comment or a disclaimer at the beginning of the video, or even a different script to make it clear you're trying to experiment. Instead, your last video genuinely came across like you thought all your changes were for the best for vanilla TF2.

[@deringjosuegarcia1531]

Yeah, most people probably were thinking the "fixing" video was just trolling when we went from Heavy's somewhat understandable changes to Sniper becoming Scout, if it had a disclaimer saying he was experimental for the sake of fun (And not calling the video FIXING, how do you mess that one up?) the backlash wouldn't be NEARLY as bad as it is

[@ArkayeCh]

Consider having a sense of humor and saying sorry for feeling insulted by an elaborate shitpost someone made for fun lol. Forester's Frogskin not being crazy was already explained and implied. It lets you jump but it reduces your health and there are counters present, including his new Spy.

[@vyor8837]

​@@ArkayeCh simply reducing HP isn't a perfect nerf for something that increases mobility.

[@limo1132]

If you had titled the first video something like "making goofy changes to tf2s weapons" the video would have recived way less hate, usually balancing videos want to balance weapons and classes, you also want balance but its clear you prioritize changing up the experience and making things more fun, i still think some changes are bs but i understand a lot of the changes you made in the first video now

[@hwhaht]

I know what you did Grouch. I know about the Harbor Freight incident.

[@HeyGrouch]

I told you never to speak of this again. Don't make me call The Boss.

[@luk4323]

​@@HeyGrouchnuh uh

[@radil3732]

Oops

[@lolchipperson11person12]

I think the enforcer should have less accuracy on top of a smaller clip size, making it so you can’t just spam it.

[@HeyGrouch]

Possibly! We'll test it a bit more and then see if it needs a nerf :)

[@lolchipperson11person12]

@@HeyGrouch alright.

[@jamesverner9132]

The only shoots that should do damage are the ones where you are in the air . The least likely place to get shoot from for that extra sneak factor. Buffed!

[@TheSalamiMan]

Caution, very long! I discuss his changes then at the bottom I discuss the reason for people not liking his changes and how he can improve while maintaining the silliness. Disguise kit = good change. Period. Enforcer = interesting idea, I could see it working but it might not have enough sustain to justify the lower accuracy, but that depends on the actual numbers. The sentry busting with it sounds great though. YER = Another interesting idea. It could certainly work though the base weapon could also be fixed by just removing one of the debuffs. I like the creativity though. (Take this one with a grain of salt as I am less familiar with this weapon) Ambassador = Oh god please no. There is a reason the ambassador got nerfed. Sniper headshotting is fine because he has no movement and *should* be weak in close quarters. We do not need to give the invisible Frenchman 102 damage at any range when he can just slink away afterwards. The crit falloff doesn’t make it unusable, it just turns it from an upgrade to a sidegrade. Arguably, the falloff should apply to the diamondback too. Red tape recorder = wtf the man? I can understand your reasoning, being that it will certainly piss off battleengies but, if the main problem with the RTR is that it doesn’t kill things fast enough, don’t remove its ability to kill at all. Remember, no sentry is better than a disabled sentry 99% of the time. I will say that the increased health, just on its own, would probably make the RTR usable, so good on you for that, even if the other buff you gave it makes it useless again. (Sidenote, your main problem seems to be that your solution to a weapon being too niche is to make it even more niche. Please stop doing that.) Wrangler = creative idea, but the engineer can just hide behind the wrangled sentry. I would suggest the obvious solution for obvious reasons. Just reduce the shield to 33% instead of 66% and *maybe* remove the firing speed bonus and you’d be fine. This is because the wrangler when used the way it’s intended is actually fine, the problem is pretty specifically the ability to save your sentry by pressing 2 on your keyboard. I really like the sentry jumping idea though. Natasha = sure, I guess. Seems a bit extreme and you could probably just tone down the upside instead, but I don’t have much of an opinion here. You should rethink it though. Cozy camper = the tf2tuber watchalong summed this one up pretty good. You nerfed sniper, then gave him unlocks that invalidate the nerfs, thus making him unfun to play as, while keeping him unfun to play against. Just rethink your whole sniper rework, please. Eureka effect and Machina = I personally think the EE is fine as is, it fills a specific niche while working in most situations just fine. The Machina is heavily dependent on your sniper rework, so we’ll see. Rocket Jumper = fine I guess, but a big part of the rocket jumper is to be stock with no damage so that newbies can practice rocket jumping. The trollger part is secondary. More ammo could work, but firing speed should remain unchanged. Diamond back = I really like this weapon. The perfect aim should be reconsidered for something else, but I think this is reasonably balanced. Critfalloff should be considered, but with the limited circumstances you get your crits, it might not need it. If you do keep the perfect aim, you should definitely consider giving it critfalloff though. Kunai = if people like the change, keep it. The simple fact it no longer invalidates it’s own downside is more than enough to fix the weapon. I actually kind of like it. Response to backlash response: I don’t think anyone is concerned that a weapon doesn’t fit in or that is too different from the original. The usual problem people have is that you tend to change the weapons based on a specific use and buff and nerf it only based on that use with no consideration to how it could interact with any other situation. This results in your rebalances being either unimaginably strong for reasons you don’t consider like giving sniper the highest mobility in the game when mobility is his main weakness or being unimaginably weak because the situation it is specialized for is not actually useful like the RTR not destroying the building, which when fighting a battle engie, is pretty good, but in literally any other situation makes the weapon infinitely worse(which is a problem it already suffers from). As someone from the Tf2tuber watchalong said “you accurately identify the problem, then propose a solution that makes it 10x worse”. In short: people dislike these changes not because they don’t fit in tf2 or anything, but because they create more balance problems while rarely actually fixing anything. This btw is meant to be constructive criticism. So if I came off as mean, please forgive me. I think you have alot of good and more importantly unique ideas to offer(like the new diamondback and enforcer). All they really need is more time in the oven, so get baking. I’m excited to see what you cook up! Also, just remember that reasonable balance is not mutually exclusive with silliness and that you can infact have both. Just remember to how the silliness interacts with other weapons because it can have some drastic side effects.

[@Des_fa]

Well, you write many words, but yeah. I think for Natasha better have ammo consumption on revved up.

[@theweirdpenguin9437]

I also think that the ambassador is definitely not enough to nerf the danger shield, because it forces the spy to use the ambassador against it. Basically if you don't have a spy that is using specifically the ambassador in your team then you're screwed. It's also a problem when we take into consideration the sniper changes he made in the last video since now any competent sniper is gonna be using the hitman's heat maker and the danger shield given its absolutely absurd mobility

[@El.fish.the.chocolate]

The problem with the Amby and sniper as a whole is the fact that valve created them thinking that no one would ever put hours in them, then people started to actually putting hours in them.

[@mix3k818]

Honestly a long ranger Amby would be amazing... in competitive lobbies. See, this is the main problem with Valve's methodology for TF2 balance: they kept trying to do universal stats, even when they're unbalanced and situational depending if you're playing casually or competitively.

[@El.fish.the.chocolate]

@@mix3k818 best example of this? The caber, a gimmicky funny meme weapon in casual, but a medic picker in comp. Logical result? Can't one shot medic anymore. Actual result? Trash weapon a part for caber knight.

[@dotcomgamingd5564]

Ill re-add my comment: I loooove this new enforcer. it seems fuckin' awesome.

[@HeyGrouch]

it's super fun! hop on the server and try it sometime :)

[@dotcomgamingd5564]

@@HeyGrouch will do!

[@supersain2349]

it's, uh, a but op but fun

[@kuzeyrl]

same

[@joltik2]

It’s nice that you’re clear for the changes you made in the first video but you should’ve been clear from the start or people were confused because your channel usually has a really high standard of quality and it does but having out of place changes like that really true people off and created A ton of negative backlash you should’ve said from the start of the video that you were just making changes to see what would happen instead of making changes to rebalance weapons

[@HeyGrouch]

true

[@MelonTF2]

10:09 I think you should have said sooner that you wouldn't want to see these changes in the base game, not mentioning it made a lot of confusion and that's what generated all the hate

[@HeyGrouch]

Oh hey Melon! Love your vids! That's true. I guess I figured it didn't need to be said :P

[@blazeultimo]

man says he hates sniper, nerfs him, then puts him back to where he was before. Then also makes spy a sniper again.

[@HeyGrouch]

to be fair though, i've never played sniper

[@soupernpc1196]

@@HeyGrouch

[@niviera7807]

@@HeyGrouch Then go play bruh why even suggest changes to a class if you didn't even try the class

[@tise7709]

The sniper rifle changes were reasonable except hitmans heatmaker bypassing everything. Everything else though? Yeah that was bad, heh

[@Yosif3]

​@@niviera7807 Fishstick when balance changes:

[@mix3k818]

1:34 SPY HAS A -GUN- KNIFE

[@PeacockLover127]

(i said this on the original upload but) the reroll your gun game after very kill sounds EXTREMELY FUN!!!!

[@HeyGrouch]

i'm so happy you think so!! i'm really excited to get back to work on it!!

[@Nerdtendo6366]

0/10 not enough bleed damage

[@hmmm2359]

Last video: "Stealth is Spy's thing, not Sniper's. Get this man some universal tracer rounds." This video: "Yeah so revert the Jungle Inferno changes to the Ambassador, call it a day. Who even cares about Spy being effective at long range?" Edit: for those that say the old amby is in fact fine and balanced, I recommend fsoas’ video on it.

[@birdyisblue]

He has some very bad choices but the ambassador thing seems like a quality change. I don't think anyone ever actually had any gripes with ambassador as it was. It doesn't instakill, only has perfect accuracy on the first shot, and it can't scope in, so it's still pretty difficult to use at long range

[@OmegaRC59]

21 damage on stock is still enough to kill light classes at long range, spy has always been extremely capable at long range chip damage in general. The only thing I'll agree on is that 5 revolver shots worth of damage at long range in an instant is a little silly, but not the idea of spy being allowed to be capable there. There's a reason Valve gave him a capable midranged gun instead of literally any of their previous ideas for the class

[@giomander40k]

It's not that easy to use the ambassador since you have to consider the slower firing speed the fact you can't chain together headshots and the absurd damage penalty that was even higher than the one of the diamondback before this video

[@-RandomStranger-]

​@@birdyisblue a mosquito stealing half your health, then cloaking away is still annoying and a lot of damage

[@LeafMaltieze]

I'd be fine with it if it also had the transparent tracers from the Classic.

[@pixelcatmagic]

Great job taking the controversy well. Great changes too!

[@HeyGrouch]

thanks! :)

[@thecluckster3908]

There was controversy?

[@pixelcatmagic]

@@thecluckster3908 Yeah. It pretty much consisted of tf2ubers shitting on the first video and everyone saying "this is why tf2 shouldn't be given to the community".

[@Mangoeplanter]

@@pixelcatmagic average tf2bers:

[@tomasaho5079]

@@pixelcatmagic Because they are too lazy to make new content so they just steal a video and make fun of it

[@jackmazzella4920]

what if enforcer lets you shoot enemies while disguised (without undisguising)

[@osobatalentu6944]

I am not sure if red tape recorder was buffed. Yea the one that we have right now isn't faster than normal saper in therms of destroying the buildings, but it would remove 2 lv faster than stock saper could destroy the buildings

[@NeonBlueLight]

I feel like this one would pair well with the new enforcer. If you want the building destroyed just unload the chamber onto the building. Like sure if you want to destroy buildings without losing your disguise, stock would be better.

[@HeyGrouch]

Perhaps. Only one way to find out! :)

[@-RandomStranger-]

​@@NeonBlueLight yes, I don't want to reveal myself to the enemy team.

[@BigVince80bce]

@@-RandomStranger- I also wouldn't want to be forced to use enforcer just because I'm running the new red tape.

[@NerdStuffing]

I think it would be way more fun however.

[@strayorion2031]

Mr.President, a third HeyGrouch TF2 balance video has hit youtube

[@thehunter5740]

I think I lost my mcfucking marbles watching the first video even as a long time viewer, but I think this video is a showcase that your stuff is headed in the right direction. I love that you're still going despite the fact that the first video bombed harder than your iron bomber rework.

[@HeyGrouch]

Haha, thanks! Tbh the vid's response was still mostly positive. Like 70%

[@ammi5311]

By that i suggest the rapid fire function although fitting enfocer visually, should goes to diamond back instead . Combine with glow effect display on disguise when armed, solves stocking crits meanwhile . Also no, don't make other awkwardly accurate long range gun competing with ambassador

[@wintube360]

this video made greatblue bleed

[@minneelyyyy]

for 8 seconds

[@blobdestroyer1792]

Honestly what a fucking chad. He gets shit on for his previous video and what does he do? Does he get defensive or complain or try to play the victim? No, he owns up, listens to the criticism, and has another go at it.

[@mrstudent9125]

Buffing Team Fortress 2 classes always seemed like a strange case to me

[@artifactU]

on one hand if you like how a weapon a weapon works but dont like how it looks

[@crabbycakey]

@@artifactU 3 weeks late, but this a reference to the infamous Zenith copypasta where he nearly always comments “[x] always seemed like a strange case to me.” lol

[@artifactU]

@@crabbycakey which in turn is a referance to great blues video kzbin.info/www/bejne/d6OxcnaNfLOqd7csi=wwjVwMf2HFoxrYUd

[@artifactU]

@@crabbycakey i swear just replied to you but for some reason youtube isnt showing that reply, i guess it got deleted. anyway zenith was himself referancing a great blue video titled "What If Reskins Were Different? - TF2"

[@crabbycakey]

@@artifactU oh yeah

[@StrangeThisChangedByItself]

You shouldve named the last video "grouching tf2" and not "fixing tf2s terrible weapon design" lol

[@timothytardie756]

I don't like the new red tape, it feels pointless because the sapper is still great for team play because it still disables sentries, it also damages them so your team can take them out quicker while also still being good for non-team use. I say bring back the re-wind feature and also keep the new health, making it good for setting back large nests and leaving them vulnerable for team pushes, which would also be a nerf to engineer stacking. This would also keep the ability to insta kill buildings when the engineer places them.

[@toadallyawful]

your response to the backlash of "oh its just for fun" is a crazy cop out

[@taklampan650]

Biggest issue is that these weapons have existed for like 15 years and some people really don't want them changed. I think these changes sound fun but would probably be better suited to new weapons instead

[@HeyGrouch]

True, but I don't have the resources for that rn. Eventually though yes absolutely!

[@certifiedfunnyguy]

I was a hater of some of your changes but honestly I liked that you went far with your changes and I love that you are just giving it another swing with playtesting to follow. Super cool stuff

[@HeyGrouch]

Thanks!!

[@joaopedrosoaresmeirellesdu730]

-Makes ass ideas -Tells its a joke -Server for everyone to seee ass ideas

[@PlatinumAltaria]

Funhater located

[@joaopedrosoaresmeirellesdu730]

@@PlatinumAltaria fatherless located (I like fun, but his ideas are still ass)

[@Dudeman1231]

I think the red tape recorder should make the buildings bleed for 8 seconds.

[@Guy-i7h]

Dude you know what ? At that point instead of trying making weapons balanced you can try making them fun, cuz we playing games to have fun, in your "fixing tf2 terrible weapons" was a lot of horrible changes from balance view, but a lot of good changes drom the fun point of view, but ofc you need to add more changes

[@HeyGrouch]

Agree!

[@htlchtlc]

Several changes weren't fun. That was the problem. This is a PvP game, fun comes from shooting AND getting shot. Spam guns aren't fun on the receiving end. Neither are insta kills.

[@gimmymorefood9938]

@@htlchtlc I agree, I feel like the entire reason people dislike sniper it because he can instakill any class from any range.

[@Your_Friend259]

tbh nice changes, love bringing back old amby, eternal reward changes, I like the idea of increasing health of red tape recorder but I would keep the undoing the building, also I would change sprinting while being disguised from holding space to "r" key, like vaccinator has option to change resistance on "r"

[@Agent51_afterdark]

This is a lot better, I'm gonna stick around to see you fix your changes. I didn't like.. any of them really in the first video. But in this one I at least liked some of the changes, you earned a subscriber from me. Good luck rebalancing the rest!

[@HeyGrouch]

Thanks!!

[@Agent51_afterdark]

@@HeyGrouch No problem! Good luck! ;D

[@demonicdude1328]

Glad to see you're actually listening to the deed back from the last video. I especially liked the enforcer and red tape changes, but I'd recommend new changes for the pompson andvtge Scorch shot/firefly since spam weapons are unfun to fight in general.

[@beaksters]

You should’ve given every spy weapon bleed.

[@dannydeedsdonedirtcheep1726]

i think this version of the kunai would benefit from more health from medkits. It would make the penalty more forgiving while out of combat, but still very present while in combat.

[@riceballsmashpokemongamere1705]

So this alongside the other video were made for a fun server that you run, rather than a genuine attempt at providing solid ideas to balance the game? I mean, I fuck with that but you didn't really advertise it as that, which I think was most people's problem with the original. There was no claim that this was meant to be for a fun, wacky 12 v 12 random crits server, and people saw it as a genuine presentation of balancing ideas. I'm not tryna be an ass about this, but you really should've made your intentions more clear in the first video lol

[@dalehirstein9694]

Listen man, I get you don't think the "Forester's Frogskin" is op because of your subjective experience. But one of your core complaints about the sniper's power in the previous video was that their threat radius ability to lock down the map from sightlines makes it very difficult to coordinate with your teammates when you could only give callouts like "He's on that rock over there." A moon-jumping sniper is able to get to vastly more problematic sightlines, and many of the core maps in the game have been designed and balanced around the concept of Sniper only being able to reach certain places on his own. Literally just give it a few days - Invite cracked sniper players to come try out your weapon, too. I think you'll find you're compellingly wrong on this.

[@rattle_me_bones]

Honestly, I respect this absolutely insane method of balancing. I would call it "Balance Anarchy", honestly, because some of these changes are things only tested via custom weapons. TF2 is a super old game. Weapons have been the way they are for ages and, for the most part, people's approaches to balancing them has been mild reworks or tweaks, and I think this kind of method of rebalancing is basically uncharted territory for the game that would be interesting to see plunged into. If only for the hilarity.

[@coprophagichobo2377]

Enforcers atk speed boost should last for a couple seconds after removing disguise, so similar but more like a burst of rapid fire for like 4 seconds.

[@awesierra704]

Personally I feel like the red tape recorder is something of a nerf, since even if it takes 4 hits to destroy, having to restore a downgrade takes 8 hits and 200 metal.

[@teddydaly-dh9bs]

I think the wrangler should mark the engi for death for the problem with long range is not a issue because of mini crit’s lack of damage falloff

[@NessRobloxian]

For those wondering, Grouch's hud is AntsHUD (he told me real)

[@HeyGrouch]

100% confirmed and validated.

[@toastyboi8737]

A problem with the rocket jumper, its supposed to be the training wheels for rocket jumping, it shouldn't focus its stats to benefiting a niche subclass. Players just happened to find synergy between it and the market gardener and thus, trolldier was born.

[@myriousGE]

After uploading another video and just rolling with it, my respect for you has only grown. Keep on rocking in the free world

[@HeyGrouch]

🙏🙏🙏

[@m.a.r.s5789]

Im happy to discover this great channel due to "that" video. Keep it up

[@HeyGrouch]

Hahahahaha, thanks :)

[@samseward1374]

Wait. Engineers whose buildings are being sapped by the new Red Tape recorder can just switch classes for a moment so their buildings will just despawn. They might lose some already built buildings, but it doesn’t lock them out of building a certain building.

[@HeyGrouch]

True. But then they destroy everything, so that's still a Spy W

[@admiral_gravleos8]

@@HeyGrouch No.

[@NNinja1255]

@@admiral_gravleos8 dude, i think a healthy level 3 teleporter being destroyed by a class switch to just destroy a red-tape recorder sapped sentry is problematic for the entire team.

[@ttty2242]

@@NNinja1255 either way those teleporters are gone, and since a spawn change needed to happen, the sentry and dispenser are also probably gone too, so there really isn't much of a novel problem for the engi. All the change does is say "FUCK YOU" to *frontier justice* engineers and annoy the fuck out of everyone else

[@ARexplor]

I’ve been coming back to tf2 after a 10 year hiatus, and I’m really glad to see someone who talks about the weapons in terms of fun. It’s so strange to see how people talk about weapons in terms of balance, and how many things have been nerfed in order to balance weapons. A lot of the fun has been taken out sadly

[@HeyGrouch]

Agreed :)

[@CheeseHead_B0I]

I’d love to see you change the who-long heater. So that when you get a kill with it, the ring of fire expands twice as big for half a second and deal a little damage, and gain 50 ammo every kill. For the negative Stats I think it’s all right to keep it as it is with the -20% damage penalty and the ammo drain. I think this would make for an interesting up-close chain killing beast

[@HeyGrouch]

Could be super fun!! Might be hard for me to program that with my current experience level, but maybe one day!

[@Aibadenshi]

I prefer the idea of just set people on fire when being hit but the time duration of the afterburn is like the Dragon Fury regardless of much you hit then the damage from the afterburn is fix and doesn't increase and only it duration does. Like the damage could be reduced to 35% or 40% due to the fire tick damage from the after burn do increase your damage. With this heavy can mid to long range pepper people with bullet and fire damage but is somewhat weaker up close due to afterburn doesn't apply more damage the longer it goes.

[@CombineHgrunt]

Now I know balance is tricky but I am seriously baffled you'd created the concept for 1 shot instead of 6, and with whatever changes you could add to it outside of a one-shot kill you went "ok, that's better now"

[@gumhoy5054]

Thank you for continuing to make content bro.

[@HeyGrouch]

Of course! It's my passion :)

[@mochathought]

At first I thought your original video was insane but watching this one made me appreciate it way more, I think people were taking the original video too seriously. Also I was kinda dissapointed in seeing the diamondback to back be changed again because I loved the idea of a one in the chamber style spy revolver, maybe increasing the damage on the first shot would help it.

[@marcellpinter4031]

Bro is in his redemption arc.

[@HeyGrouch]

🔥🔥🔥

[@admiral_gravleos8]

Not at all.

[@JaytheLay1]

Less a redemption arc, more people were being reactionary and are now discarding their part in the situation through their previous blissful ignorance. It's all just people having fun ignoring context at other's expense, as the internet loves to do. Really, he didn't do anything wrong, people just didn't care about history or person, just content for themselves in a circlejerk of apathy.

[@fizz5357]

@@JaytheLay1He called a video “Fixing TF2’s Worst Weapons”, and then made them worse. That’s doing something wrong.

[@BossKnight]

5:17 also it can level down important buildings, like a teleporter which can make it a useless lv1 tele

[@thewitchishammered]

>casually misses demopills when mentioning the 100hp threshold

[@HeyGrouch]

I've never missed a shot in this game in my entire 51 hours. This is somebody else's gameplay. I knew if I showed my own gameplay, everyone would think the weapons are overpowered because I'm just _that_ good at the game

[@thewitchishammered]

@@HeyGrouch I meant the weapons onscreen during the engineer segment when you mention 96 effective HP

[@thislink1519]

I knew Grouch was gonna make a series that just keeps getting better with each video/revision.

[@HeyGrouch]

:)

[@Minigolfwindmill]

This is very case by case, but I find the red tape recorder actually helps when playing gun spy. In my experience, the lower damage means that engineers are more likely to engage in a gunfight as opposed to destroying the sapper, meaning you don't have to deal with sentries AND the ebgineer while using your revolver

[@khromyakvsevolod3664]

How about a flamethrower that inflicts bleed instead of burning?

[@HeyGrouch]

genius

[@damenfinch1779]

If you would be so kind Here is how I would rework the diamond back Mini crits on headshot Gain a stored minicrit for every kill, backstab and building destroyed Turns stored minicrits into full crit upon landing a headshot -50% to clip size Loses stored minicrits on death

[@HeyGrouch]

Interesting! 2 headshot revolvers would definitely give those flick Spies some variety!

[@damenfinch1779]

@HeyGrouch I forgot if you had costume weapons on your server cause I have a cool idea for a spy revolver It would be called Inconue, meaning something in French It would have No damage falloff Almost completely silent No bullet spread Alt fire swaps your next bullet with one that can be shot while disguised but would have a 12-second cooldown and take 3 seconds to load No damage ramp up No random crits You take 15% more damage while out

[@pennydime4562]

Still has the problem off long range crit spies, the anywhere anytime class doesnt need long rangr crits

[@asan4628]

Having 2 minicrit sources doesn't sound good

[@михолайзубенко]

New rtr has a good idea as a ANOTHER weapon, og rtr have his own niche in engaging engineers, he MUST stay as he now, aside little buff like +1 health.

[@outofideasexe]

i feel like I watched this already...

[@HeyGrouch]

it's always better the second time

[@TheRainWorldCreature]

Nuh uh no you didn't fr totally

[@talosine2963]

You are allowed back into the kitchen, but only as a line cook for now.

[@TheWanderer1000000]

*HE CAN'T KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH IIIIIIIIIIIIIIT*

[@jayr.9884]

i came to this video expecting you to have more dumb ideas and i was not disappointed. do you know what other sapper can be used to disable a building so a coordinating heavy can destroy it? the regular one

[@hword5notsoofficial803]

The red tape change goes insanely hard Makes it so sap and stab is way better, and FORCES the engineer to fight you, because if they try to remove the sapper, they just instantly die

[@HeyGrouch]

That's the idea!!

[@Regulinecolt009]

It's pretty meh imo, like why would I focus on my sentry if it's not taking damage from the sapper?? Unlike a default sapper which actually forces me to choose between my sentry, my engie and the spy 😭😭

[@maximilianwonschik1304]

​@@Regulinecolt009that's true. This does actually nothing except maybe sometimes annoys mini-sentry engis. But that' s about it. And even if I just fall back wait till someone destroys the sentry and build a new one. But this just sound really fristrating to play against tbh and extremly ineffective most of the times

[@DarkMan416]

Just bring back the enforcers old upside of 30% while undisguised bro

[@Lawgamer411]

Ok that disguise kit change is actually great

[@hifty7779]

Dude when I first got the red-recorder, I was super hype to be very disappointed by the direct downgrade that it was. This update is soooo cool! You’ll see me in the serv sometime… (I know what you did, there’s no escaping your uploads!)

[@HeyGrouch]

Heck yeah, excited to play with you!

[@MJS2389]

Time to watch this a second time

[@HeyGrouch]

Please do lol. It helps the vid grow :)

[@jamesverner9132]

"This is a second upload" Dear GOD! "There's more" NO!

[@dalehirstein9694]

It also doesn't really work to defend yourself by saying "I made these changes in service of fun" if your video was titled "Fixing TF2's terrible weapons", but you acknowledge that it's a "clickbait title" while not engaging with the problem you never once insert a thesis statement that you're making adjustments for the purposes of fun.

[@rejvaik00]

Spy doesn't need any buffs at all the kunai dead ringer diamondback abusing spies is what needs downgrading

[@HeyGrouch]

That's what we did! :)

[@rejvaik00]

​@@HeyGrouchthat's good 👍

[@rejvaik00]

​@@HeyGrouchand then in addition what you could do is you could rework spy's hitbox for the back stab spy has a very generous hitbox on the definition of back While other classes do have a very strict definition of the back Heavy has this when it comes to his holiday punch and pyro has a very strict definition of the back when it comes to his back burner

[@lord_razur]

@@rejvaik00 The funny thing is Valve actually did this, I found it in some really old patch notes... but they reverted it the very next day, presumably because the diehard Spy mains were pissed they couldn't stab someone from within 180 degrees of their back anymore.

[@rejvaik00]

@@lord_razur the one-time valve listens to the players and they do the wrong thing 🤣

[@BoyOHBoy123]

I fw that Red Tape Recorder buff.

[@HeyGrouch]

nice B) it's been fun so far

[@Synical02]

Experimental is the correct word , and you should DEFINITELY use that from now on. You need to make sure your audience knows what you're proposing, and who its for or else you will attract the wrong targets audience. Your last video Seemed like Genuine Changes , and if they were 1. You dont seem very knowledgeable on the games mechanics or why things are the way they are or maybe you are but just wanna test things 2. To sum up your changes is essentially having 3 careful Crafted lego sets smashed together by a toddler because, they are bored . you do random shit without thinking about how mechanics interact, and how it long term affects things. Yes experiments can be fun and educational, but they also can be a waste of time and an excuse from criticism . If youre just making changes for fun, and that was obvious to the consumer then the reactions would definitely be less volatile.

[@ShockedTaiLung]

Aw yeah it’s reupload time

[@HeyGrouch]

it's even better the 2nd time

[@magistermagus1211]

i moght not have liked some of your ideas in the last video, but you show dedication in improving and that is something admirable.

[@HeyGrouch]

thanks :)

[@PeacockLover127]

but the double teleporter was SO COOL!!!! 😢

[@HeyGrouch]

It'll be back in some form eventually!!

[@thaias9654]

11:50 KZbin recommendations: "How about no."

[@makodoesstuff]

Another idea to make the red tape recorder better is a very simple change: it doesn’t tell the engineer the building is sapped, at least not on the hud. Might be overkill but it would be a neat idea

[@HeyGrouch]

Interesting

[@Guy-i7h]

11:53 fortifed compond explosive arrows? Ok I want to see it, and I even have a suggestion: You can make that compound dont have random crits, but after every kill or smth like that you get guarantee krits and every time you get a krit on this bow arrows you shoot becomes explosive arrows, and it even can work with kritzkrieg, or make it like in killing floor 2 where you can swap between two types of arrows or smth like that.

[@artifactU]

the compound already doesnt random crit, also headshots count as crits

[@HeyGrouch]

Sounds fun!

[@FurbyBeanie1]

What changed lmao

[@HeyGrouch]

It's probably good you don't notice the change 🥸

[@FurbyBeanie1]

@@HeyGrouch guh!!!

[@josesantillan7041]

Wft is this spy has a sapper for buildings and no one uses the enforcer for taking down buildings

[@kinet1q]

Also "fun" is very subjective. For you as a soldier main destroying engi's building in half of second is sure fun, but rebuilding as an engi takes much longer, and this is why the jag is more used. So you basically make it build faster, but your nest gets much weaker without proper sustain. Your balance just suck so much, please understand how the game works before changing it into a sh*tshow

[@stargost2338]

Personally, I think spy seriously needs more bleed damage.