TF2: Is Sniper Overpowered?

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[@jbirdTF]

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[@sycophantic0]

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[@enchantedlightbringer]

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[@tommyroddenberry66]

Bruh your a sellout my dude

[@aSmallGreenDot]

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[@UsingGorillaLogic]

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[@NettyKetty]

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[@flaregamer64]

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[@xronge]

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[@NettyKetty]

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[@HanzTheODST]

@@flaregamer64 nah man soldier is better than the scot maggot

[@HeyKyle]

that guy named "The Spy" that walked up to you like an enemy spy lmfaooo

[@treeboi4798]

they issue is when it’s a 12v12 where he will often be under the protection of his team. In this highly common situation, the best most classes can achieve is a trade (at best usually). this is why sniper is overpowered on most casual maps, but not comp (6s bs he is op in highlander). it’s tf2’s casual gamemode design that breaks the class.

[@ApertureBlack]

So, he is OP on every mode except 6's? Isnt that an issue?

[@macabweu7682]

Not really. Sniper's biggest weakness is coordination if anything else. If you cab just coordinate a little bit. Sniper is done for. Even in Casual. A sniper can't win if 10 players are rushing out of one point and two other snipers are pumping him for of bullets. This kind of coordination is minimal and has a high chance of happening just playing a match with snipers.

[@josephg1125]

The only reason hes not run fulltime on 6s is because mobility, the frontlines are moving quickly in 6s which is why only the most mobile classes are used. When holding last hes still the most used offclass due to his one downside being his mobility being irrelivent in such a situation

[@josephg1125]

@@macabweu7682 Why does every post defending sniper act like hes 1v12ing the other team LOL as if his team isnt going to defend him and as if its balanced you have to sacrafice half your team to drop one guy

[@phantomstriker7996]

@@macabweu7682 You do know he can just use his team as meat shields and escape

[@lordlunchmoney]

My two biggest problems with Sniper are his range and damage. I'm aware both of those are what define him, but hear me out. Overall in TF2, there are very few weapons that one shot other players. If we exclude random crits and weapons that give negative resistances or less health (kunai, candy cane, ect), there are only a handful of weapons that can oneshot other classes. We've got the direct hit (140 dmg max), all sniper primaries (450 on rifles, 360 on the huntsman), and all spy knives (six times the target's current health). If we're counting two weapon combos, there's also the crit a cola + any scout primary (up to 153 with the FaN), jarate + bushwacka (195), and demoman charges with the splendid screen or chargin targe (195, or 234 with the skullcutter). I may be missing a few, but the one thing that EVERY one of these, except sniper primaries, have in common is that they have to be in melee range to actually get the kill in one shot. Not to mention that all excluding the sniper rifles and spy knives, those weapons can't instakill a class with 200 hp or higher, most not even going over 160. TF2 is a very close to mid range focused game. Damage fall-off and ramp-up are clearly designed to encourage this. Some classes are better at close range, like scout and spy, some are better while keeping some distance, like engie and demo, and some perform well at either range, like heavy and soldier. But all of them lose any effective damage at long range, outside of a very select few weapons like flare guns, which even then have big arcs and long travel times. Having a class that is the best at long range, where no one else can counter that, ruins that entire dynamic. The only class that can truly counter a sniper is another sniper. There's a reason highlander practically revolves around your sniper vs the enemy sniper. Sniper is supposed to be weak at close range, but he can still instakill at point blank if he can actually land shots. Even then, other options like jarate and the bushwacka means that he has more easy to use close range damage options. When scout and spy are supposed to counter sniper, he has a lot of ways to EASILY fight back. Part of the problem is, as I said before, TF2 is close to mid range focused, so a long range class just doesn't fell like he fits in. I'm sure changes to sniper's core mechanics would offend tons of people, but it really should be done.There's a few potential ways to fix him. Giving rifles reverse damage falloff, adding a cutoff range for headshots, so at close range sniper can't headshot, even reworking jarate and the bushwacka... And those are just a few of the ideas I've had. I'm not saying they're the perfect solution, or that all of them should be added. I just don't understand why the only class that has a long range instakill weapon can do equal amounts of damage at point blank. Something needs to change.

[@ilikewindows3455]

I literally could not have said this any better myself

[@th3comb1ne13]

Highlander revolves around the medic and uber. As that is what wins the game. Sniper is a second priority as he needs frequent protection to be effective. Playing with the combo makes the sniper just as vulnerable as the rest of the combo. Playing away from the combo will result in you feeding the spy and flank. Even on sniper heavy maps like upward and product the sniper needs protection. So in fact classes like the spy and soldier can counter the sniper, if the sniper is getting sub par protection. Tf2 is an FPS game. Not a MOBA or fighting game. Any good FPS game would have a dynamic that covers all ranges. That is what keeps the game varied, less repetitive and attracts a larger audience.

[@coxxen]

What about changing the sniper rifle hitscan to projectile? (like the huntsman, but waaaay faster)

[@shmerps5809]

i honestly think they should just revert amby/ buff spy. hes such a shitty class and is really good at countering sniper at least in hl

[@KoolMeester2]

@@shmerps5809 balancemods changes are great for that tho. The mod reduces the ammo of the sniper from 25 to 12, meaning he has to go to a ammo pack to restock (and also only gets 6 bullets from a medium ammo pack). This gives spy much more opportunities to backstab or kill the sniper.

[@pippon9626]

cool to see you getting sponsored man!

[@unklekirk]

These exact points could be used for pre-nerf ambassador.

[@seananriley4499]

pre-nerf

[@celestia.27]

at least the pre nerf amby didn't one shot any classes besides kunai and big earner spies

[@gelboyc]

skill-wise it's balanced, yes. pre-nerf amby does take skill to use, but headshots is not spy's role. if you give any other class the amby it'd still be balanced, but it's not what their gameplay should be. only sniper should be able to headshot at any range.

[@unklekirk]

@@gelboyc I don't see why this is a problem when there are many other weapons in the game the change the role for other classes. You make the argument that spy shouldn't be a long ranged class but what about demo? He shouldn't be a close quarters brawler but the shields change that engi shouldn't be a Frontline combat class but the gunslinger changes that Heavy shouldn't be a backup healer but the lunchbox items change that Scout shouldn't be a medium/long range class but the shortstop changes that Medic shouldn't be able to heal at long range but the crossbow changes that SNIPER shouldn't be a close range class but the huntsman changes that. Making the argument that spy should only have one role is hypocritical unless you also agree that other classes should only have one role too. Why can't spy be allowed a weapon that changes their playstyle?

[@unklekirk]

No answer 😔

[@TheDeLiXx]

What are you talking about? Snipers are deadly in melee range. One random crit and the charging demoknight, spy, scout, medic and possibly demo depending on your strafe+luck will die. I'd argue that the sniper has more ways to counter a spy (jarate, razorback, ...) than the other way around, for example. Saying that snipers have trouble in short range in general is also very shortsighted, as a good sniper will usually stay at a position where he could be peeled. At that point you'll be forced to either force your way through and risk a chance for a 1:1 trade (which won't be wise if the enemy team has more than 1 competent sniper), or somehow win against a multitude of people. Even in pubs you run into snipers with both consistent aim and high positional awareness. The only way to have a go/chance at beating a sniper (by yourself, or in a uncoordinated scenario) is if he makes a mistake, which puts him in an exceedingly powerful/controlling position. So in this case, yes. I believe that one of the reasons why sniper is so unfun to play against is because of the lack of control/fault over deaths, caused by the powerful position of the sniper, which could be an argument to the sniper being overpowered. The conclusion reached in this video seems to be based on the wrong assumption of skills acquired through effort being balanced - no questions asked. Evaluating the balance of certain gamestyles/items/classes in tf2 specifically based on high level competitive/pro level play is also nonsensical, as the game is not a competitive game to begin with and not balanced around competitive play in the first place, which is why your experience with the sniper in coordinated/high skill level scenarios may actually cloud your judgement and underestimate his "power" in pubs. The various tournament restrictions and the lack of public interest in competitive gameplay should proof that. A way to balance the sniper in a way where dying to a sniper feels less random, but still leaves him in a similar position would be to add a damage falloff after a certain distance, like with every other class. That way to get the same result as before snipers would be forced to charge their shots for long range, which would increase the gravity of missing a shot, reduce spam potential and give enemies a bigger window to approach.

[@WakeTheShark446]

I wish I could upvote this twice, the only counter to Sniper is a better Sniper, that alone should be enough to warrant balance changes, the Spy USED to be a counter to Sniper, but it requires him to get to the Sniper's position without dying and likely dealing with one of Sniper's anti-spy items or simply an aware sniper or one that hugs his team.

[@rawccoon]

I would like to say that I think there's a clear difference between a skill ceiling and an "effectiveness" ceiling. A skill ceiling would be defined as the amount of effort that needs to be put in to reach the full potential of a class, while an "effectiveness" ceiling would be how effective one can be pitted against other players. For instance, a demoknight has a lower effectiveness ceiling than sniper, due to the limitations of the class, but also has a (debatably) equally high skill ceiling compared to sniper when it comes to mastering the class. You will probably need the same amount of time and effort put into the class to use it to its fullest potential, but the fullest potentials of either class greatly vary. Playing sniper will still be more influential than demoknight in a fight, despite both classes requiring an immense amount of time, practice, and skill to play optimally. There are just some things that classes can't do, no matter how many hours you put into them. A medic, no matter how skillful, cannot beat a heavy head on who has an equal amount of skill and experience. Heck, even a heavy with little experience should usually kill a skillful medic in a 1 on 1. Sniper is incredibly powerful because I believe his effectiveness ceiling far exceeds other classes' effectiveness ceilings. While yes, there are many potential counters to a godlike sniper, this usually comes up mostly in casual. No matter how good you are at sniper, even if you have an aimbot, if your team is just unable to stay alive, you will be exposed to many threats, which is what gets snipers killed - being overwhelmed. But this is more of a testament to unbalanced matchmaking than the weaknesses of sniper. You also touched on the fact that the counter to sniper is the in game variety in movement options. However, people also aren't perfect and aren't able to consistently airstrafe, crouch spam, and strafe spam randomly, all the time while playing the game. A good sniper can wait for these opportunities when people make mistakes and stand still a fraction of a second too long, or move in a straight line for a bit too long. They can also be predicted or flick shotted, so even dodging doesn't make you 100% immune to a sniper. Sniper and spy are similar, in this respect. however, trying to indirectly counter snipers is much more stressful than trying to do the same for spies. Because spy can be screwed over by any one person in a combo turning around, instead of every single person having to dodge and focus on trying not to get their heads blown off, only one person needs to casually turn around every once in a while to discourage spies from making a play, or to even kill them in the middle of making a play. It takes a second or two for spies to make a move, and it is when they commit to something that they are the most vulnerable. Sniper has no such weakness. There is little you can do to actively try to counter a sniper. The sniper can kill at any range, almost instantly. If you react and turn around to a spy before he gets into melee range, not even letting him attempt a trickstab, you've just countered the spy. Assuming you even manage to react to seeing a sniper peek and try to dodge, your chances of living are still not guaranteed. I guess what I'm trying to say is, sniper and spy possess instakill mechanics, and backstabs are balanced because they are easily countered through good movement and tracking, and spy does not demand the full attention of one person, much less an entire team, to be countered. However, when it comes to a sniper, not only does an individual must commit their full focus to try and dodge and get to cover, but all the individuals in a team must do this, because the sniper can kill any one of them. One person dodging does not dodge for their entire team, while one person spychecking effectively spychecks for the entire team. and yet 80% of the tf2 playerbase still complains about backstabs because the stupid french man wiggled his mouse extra hard to trickstab them. then they go on reddit to complain about spy being overpowered as they post a screenshot of their 4 killsreak they got on 2fort as sniper while laughing at soundsmith jokes unironically TF2 is designed around soft counters, and sniper tends to hard counter everything in the right situation. With just a bit of game sense and help from your team, you become the most feared thing away from the battlefield. Critical hits are incredibly powerful, which is why guaranteed ones take 32 entire seconds to build at its fastest, just for a small 8 second window to reap the rewards. Critical hits in TF2 are skill based because of how hard it is to come across them (not looking at random crits of course), but using the sniper rifle just gives you an infinite potential stream of critical hits every 1.3 seconds, at any range. No matter how much skill goes into landing headshots, I still think its just too powerful. It just has the same aura of pubstomping and casual bullying, except that you can also do it in high levels. The feeling of helplessness and the sheer unintuitive lack of interaction and ability to do something makes sniper both unfun to fight against and overpowered.

[@lyw8n652]

those who said spy is overpowered probably never play/didn't know how spy's work

[@rawccoon]

@@lyw8n652 of course, do you expect the thousands of nislt viewers complaining in youtube comments sections about broken hitboxes to have more than 2 minutes on spy? these are the same people that complain about how "unrealistic" a stairstab is while they play a game with characters that can literally survive an explosive rpg to the face.

[@MartinPurathur]

seconded

[@nexusthenormie5578]

the issue is people want sniper's headshot damage nerfed, which is an absolutely awful idea especially when that would mean no more one shotting heavies and meds, which is kinda sniper's job as a pick class

[@nexusthenormie5578]

On another note I respect you for making actually valid points that aren't just "Sniper is overpowered cuz he's good at his job"

[@fourtears_]

This was really interesting to watch, and honestly I agree with the points you made. I'm a Heavy main and honestly I never thought Sniper was op, even if I get my head popped off every time I turned a corner. Snipers can only aim at one person at a time, so if I were killed by a sniper, it meant a lot of things to me: My medic would be alive and possibly have enough time to take cover before the sniper has a chance to headshot him, my sniper has a chance to peak and headshot the enemy sniper, my soldier has a chance to dive bomb, my spy has a chance to backstab... the list goes on. While going against a good sniper can be a pain, the same goes for literally any other class. With all the crazy forms of movement players can pull off in the game (rocket jumping, trimping, etc) it really does make sniping especially rewarding.

[@just1luckyguy229]

As a medic main, i aprove. Having access to a meat shield lets you map out the enemy line of sight, so you have to be pretty oblivious to walk into them. And, a good crossbow spam can be a bane for the less mobile snipers

[@jakobknecht7654]

I disagree to some extent with you. IMO, a medic should never peak a sniper sightline in the first place, and you should never die just so your medic knows where the enemy is. Theoretical question: What can a single medic do when he knows where every single enemy is, but has no more teammates alive? And as a heavy, your life is worth more than a single piece of information like the sniper's position (definitely on defense). A sniper is one of the biggest threats when playing as heavy, so making sure that the sniper gets as few chances as possible to shoot you seems like to optimal way to play heavy in my eyes. Sidenote: peaking a sniper while buffed and having the fists of steel changes this of course, but your risk of dying is a lot lower as well. I also don't really get the "Snipers can only aim at one person at a time" - This seems to be the case for most classes, no?

[@just1luckyguy229]

@@jakobknecht7654 i mean, death of your subjects is not nessesary. By just them getting shot at, you got the information you needed, and usually, medics are the last one to peek sightlines. And a guess shot after the sniper fires could lead to some frags, but i agree that its risky. The point of it is, that you dont stop to aim, and preferably, curve it, so youre out of sight

[@tasertag7513]

Machina Sniper says: haha yes P I E R C E

[@nicolaswhitehouse3894]

@@jakobknecht7654 I guess when he says sniper can only hit one target at a time. You compare that to pyros flamethrower, soldier splash damage and demoman stickies are classes that can hit multiple target at once

[@ephraimVG]

Maybe its just you who is overpowered?

[@macabweu7682]

That's pretty it

[@robot4823]

The main thing with sniper being "op" is that his direct counter wich was supposed to be the spy is just way too weak to act as such at this point, leaving the sniper with a bigger comfort zone wich is what creates this discussion in the first place, even tho theres tryharders constantly complaining about spy being op bc they backstabbed their pocket medic once. Just buff the spy so he can actually act as a counter to a good sniper before getting one shot by a soldier or a scout that just re-spawned.

[@jbirdTF]

I am entirely on board with Spy being buffed. God knows he needs it.

[@DukeJukem]

This is what I've been saying; although a really good sniper can be the most frustrating to play against, that alone doesn't make him over-powered. Closing the distance CAN be a challenge at times, especially if you're on a team that can't back you up, but simply being on a team that knows how to spam down a sniper and close the distance will make almost any level of sniper useless. Hence why sniper isn't run 24/7 in 6's, he's just not consistent enough, and is almost impossible to play against high-skill players who know how to get in your face.

[@jbirdTF]

Well said.

[@Politictrolerandenthusiast]

Yeah but here's the problem if you play sniper in 6s then the enemy forces to play sniper and if ur good at sniping scout soldier demo then the enemy team cant do shit unless they'd play spy or sniper but spy is ummm doesnt exist in 6s and if the sniper is worse than u then yeah ur just automatically win the game cause u play the SNIPER class

[@Politictrolerandenthusiast]

And don't say that sniping soldier demo and scout need skill every single class have skill to kill their opponent

[@Pokemonmovemaster]

@@Politictrolerandenthusiast Push with Uber or push two or more opposing sightlines, forcing the Sniper to choose who to pick. For Uber, you can choose to build passively with a Basher Scout or Explosive class outside of his sightline, near a chokepoint he must push through in order to attempt a pick. He must go for a quickscope here, and it is likely that your Scout/Soldier pocket will have overheal and likely survive a headshot and kill him with a 102 rocket/meatshot + some chip damage. He must make three decisions: Hope the pocket isn't standing in a position to block or otherwise interrupt with aimpunch a quickscope Med pick so that he can trade himself for Uber advantage. Charge a headshot, which will make his entry even more telegraphed and make him free pickings for any roamer, assuming the pocket doesn't see him first and shoots him, causing aimpunch to fuck up his shot. Flank, assuming the roamers aren't already covering the spots or that you don't notice and push out now that they're down a key DPS class who has no mobility tools to correct his positioning mistake quickly. If the enemy Med descides to try to pocket the Sniper to mitigate the risk he takes, he will still die in two shots and his Med took a position where your pocket can now chase the Med and potentially down him as well, making this high risk for a pretty even reward. For pushing two lines, you can probably fake a push by getting Demo or Soldier to peak around the corner a couple of times and shoot to grab the Sniper's attention, then get Scout/Solider to bomb/flank him from a different route. If Sniper predicts and instead looks towards the flank route, push out of the route that was supposed to be a fake and bomb him from there. Even if he can pick a flanker, Sniper's reload time is so long that the a second flanker pushing out at the same time can still get to him and pick him. If he wants to watch two angles at once, he has to stay unscoped, which means anyone with overheal will survive a headshot and be able to call his position, making it even easier to pick him. "But he has teammates!" Due to Sniper's lack of mobility tools, he can't roll out as fast as the other classes, meaning most of the time his team, when needing to push, is down a DPS class until he arrives, at which the battle may have already been decided or a flanker is already in a position where he can be caught off guard. The only time this disadvantage is mitigated is when defending last point which is where you most often see him getting played in order to get surprise picks that turn around or halt momentum. Even then it will take a while for his team to push out if he doesn't switch, and if they can't push out, that gives the team the time to adapt with any of the above. Hell, being slow to push out is the reason why the team pushing can even choose to pick a Sniper to counter at all. Sniper full-time really only works in pubs where people can't coordinate pushes and don't know who they are supposed to focus. You get unoverhealed scouts who don't fully utilize their mobility and Soldiers who don't know their jumps pushing solo against a Sniper while the rest of their team does nothing to try to create a distraction to make their time any easier, leading them to get picked off by the Sniper. Frag videos and clips show off all the awesome and amazing plays Snipers make, but cherrypicked gameclips made specifically that way because they make for good entertainment aren't useful to focus on solely for balancing decisions because we can't tell how many unrecorded fuck ups there were in comparison because those don't make for good entertainment. You can kill a Sniper with simple coordination. That's it.

[@dejulesb974]

@@Pokemonmovemaster too bad there aren’t players who answer to someone when talking through voice chat.

[@maxieprimo2758]

I think it comes down to design philosophy. Sniper relies on the mistakes of the sniper, while a class like scout relies on the mistakes of the opponent. If everyone was perfect, scout would suck. Because everybody isn't, sniper isn't overpowered in the hands of most players. The problem comes in at high levels.

[@UsingGorillaLogic]

I would argue the REAL problem with Sniper is that the class meant to counter him (Spy) sucks a big one right now. People who want Sniper nerfed can't see the bigger picture that the class works if his biggest threats do, and those threats are questionable at best since they are all pinned on the Spy. Engineer has a better argument for being overpowered but his biggest counter is a uberred Demoman and those two things are really strong in general, so it doesn't feel as extreme. Tl;dr Don't nerf Sniper buff Spy.

[@lyw8n652]

I mean spy already weak from the start and people still beg to nerf the amby

[@UsingGorillaLogic]

@@lyw8n652 I never understood the amby hate. Like I mostly play Pyro, Engineer and Medic and I never found it unfair to deal with. The only thing I agreed with people on was the dead ringer being "annoying".

[@chiangkaishrek5123]

@@lyw8n652 Who the fuck still wants the amby nerfed more? It’s already pretty bad at this point

[@lyw8n652]

@@UsingGorillaLogic the most thing I saw about the Amby is annoying was because it can "headshot". Some people say it change the spy playstyle/make him harder to counter etc.

[@lyw8n652]

@@chiangkaishrek5123 from I can tell it's mostly came from his counter and power class

[@sunbear2340]

I feel like this video should've mentioned an individual's movement abilities more (outside class specific options like rocket jumping). The ease in killing someone as sniper is often more so a result of whether a person knows how to stutter step, crouch jump, air strafe etc on any class. This is especially true for classes like heavy whose survivability against snipers goes up like 500% when they find the crouch key and the space bar. Almost all of the dudes I've seen complaining about sniper just hold w everywhere and then are confused when they die. That's honestly the sniper counter people just don't consider which I've found leads people to think it's overpowered

[@UnknownUser-wd6yf]

I do not believe so. It is easy to just say make yourself hard to hit. A decent sniper can still get you. It certainly requires a lot of skill, especially when it comes to quickscopes, but it removes counterplay.

[@Sydney_Angelyt]

doesn't help when I die the split second I leave spawn. and again and again

[@-tweeomoz-1786]

Skill cap isn’t a good way to balance a class; you can’t let him have the potential to kill the whole team in twelve seconds and balance it with “he’s gonna miss a few shots” because players will always prove you wrong.

[@igetboredproductions]

Blast jumping just makes you an open target. Whenever I sticky jump to close the gap they just body shot me out of the air. And a lot of maps have horrible sightlines, like Thunder Mountain. it doesn't matter how much you jitter around and tap crouch. He has plenty of time to take shots because he doesn't have to any sort of clip reload outside of the 1 second animation.

[@greyarea6688]

The thing is though that crouch jumping isn't an intuitive system, that much is evident from watching any person new to this game who doesn't even realise it's a thing. And again no matter what you're doing at mid to long range against a good sniper you're fucked no matter how much you think crouch-jumping will save you.

[@cerocero2817]

I don't think sniper is op, but that doesn't change the fact that I almost never enjoy a match with a very good sniper on the other team. Luckily it doesn't happen often. The engagements just aren't very interactive, if you know a sniper is covering a vital sightline, you either have to wait for an opening or takke a chance. You can use all the tools available to be harder to headshot, in the end it's up to the sniper alone wether you live or die, and if it's a very good one you'll die more often than not. And yes, I know a god like solly or demo with a med glued to his ass can completely shut down a server, but it doesn't feel as bad and you can see how the only reason you can't beat them is that you are not good enough, it makes you want to get better, this doesn't happen with a sniper unless you are going sniper as well.

[@snowshoe3354]

I agree with you cero

[@cerocero2817]

@Hello, Mate Wow, such a meaningful, dynamic and fair counter. Guess I didn't have anything to complain about then.

[@charlenekaczynski9023]

Bruh, i have to fight a level 9000 god sniper in every tf2 game i play.

[@rtydht45r5]

I like that point you made about how it’s not fun to kill a sniper as it is to be killing as the sniper. When I gun down a sniper that’s Dominating the whole server it doesn’t feel that great, I just killed some defenseless dude as I ran up on him, I did t really outplay them

[@h0tlatinanearu777]

I guess this is just something that each player decides. If a newish player is matched against a good sniper then sure the class is going to be overpowered to them but between players that are familiarized with the game who will for sure know how to navigate around a good sniper then it's not. I main medic so weather a class is overpowered or not I'm still gonna die so I don't really care lmfao

[@chillaxTF]

Agreed. When someone says that sniper is overpowered compared to some other class, what they really mean is that good players are overpowered against not-as-good players. Who woulda thunk it?? 🤪

[@Fizzyxd]

me missing every shot eventho i have like 1k hours dedicated to just playing sniper

[@avrg9097]

@@chillaxTF that is just stupid and not even the point. Sniper is objectively powerful and definitely more powerful than pyro, spy and heavy

[@therealomega]

chillyyy honestly, outside of pub sniper, if you‘re playing comp its broken as you cant peak a sightline knowing theres a sniper and being able to one shot a medic with a single bodyshot is definitely not something good. It also just slows down the game

[@Fizzyxd]

@@therealomega sniper is a support class, AKA its supposed to help your team win, and if it slows the game down too much for you, then simply dont play the game mode/the game.

[@okankorad57]

amazing content, super calming, and very insightful. keep it up man!

[@smile_interactive5823]

Sniper’s fine, he just needs something to prevent him from one shotting someone from mid to close range, because that’s supposed to be how you beat a sniper but instead a sniper can just invalidate all of that by looking to their left or right.

[@joeboonmusic4004]

So... He's not fine? I would agree with that.

[@carolthepyro899]

@Shota-kun there's a 50\50 chanve pf that not working, especially a good sniper.

[@chroma2992]

Move better. Its easier to kill a sniper at close range than it is to headshot someone at close range. Try strafing and ducking. If you wanna know how to fuck a sniper (im a sniper main) im boutta expose myself. If youre fighting him strafing and stuff stand still for a millisecond or two and then keep strafing. I will miss every time (i have 31,000 kills on my rifle) because im trying to predict where you’re going not where you are, making me miss

[@maildaemon]

@@chroma2992 Good advice, Mr. Sniping Musician

[@Powerlevelspy]

@@maildaemon one more thing, avoid bad maps. Wutville makes sniper busted because of the sights. Good maps like harvest, upward, and badwater have spots where sniper shines and gapping flanks which make his life vulnerable if he isn't careful and aware. I know this sounds like "So sniper is op because he makes "bad maps" unplayable", but that simply has to do with map design. A good map will give classes strong points, but noticeable weak points.

[@gabrielsabode]

I find a lot of people who complain about sniper are the people who play sniper the least.

[@afruit2994]

I feel like most of the people who complain about sniper being overpowered are biased due to the bot crisis. No one says medic is overpowered, even though he is absolutely the most powerful class in the game...

[@TheBasementD]

Yeah, but that's because I can't aim. Though scout is my most played so I think that I'm just gay or something.

[@zaipollizamabdulmalek5822]

@@afruit2994 medic have almost non defense option. Which make the medic easier to kill.

[@CheeseManFuu]

In a 1v1 scenario under perfect circumstances for either character, I do believe that Sniper is as balanced as he should be. But this is almost never the case in TF2. All games are played in teams, and there's a reason why Sniper isn't guaranteed to show up until Prolander, based on the multiple ideas like adding Payload which are generally more lengthy and have larger sightlines than KotH and most 5CP maps, and the fact that Sniper just inherently gets easier picks as the team size, and therefore the amounts of lines of offense, increases. Not only does more frontline offense mean that there is a far greater deal of focus that is required to be put on them, but it makes it harder for the classes made to inherently counter Sniper, like Spy, to even make it to him in the first place, even if the amount of Spies are scaled per 9 offensive characters (which would in fact make it worse, but for the sake of hypothetical numbers). Especially so in Highlander in higher leagues like Invite, a lot of the commentary highlights the fact that one team not having their Sniper is at an insane disadvantage, even in the league where Spies are supposed to be at their peak. Spy creates an inherent danger because he holds a passive ability that can happen any time at any place, and is made to be unpredictable and unprecedented by nature, which ends up actually being his downfall based on how much the Spy has to elaborately plan and approach to get a kill. On the flipside, Sniper creates a wholly different danger that any time a Sniper is precedented, as even though his role is extremely one-dimensional, he alone creates an astigmatism that certain routes and lanes are now a dangerous push, which is huge for very linear, asymmetric modes like Payload where you can't be creative with your route at all (and is an uphill battle for the offending Sniper), all by sitting flush against the opposite wall. In such large team formats, there are only other 3 classes that are immediately viable, without Uber, to close the gap between them and the opposing Sniper: The Spy, which has already been discussed, the Demo, who you would be simply stupid to get sac off, and the Soldier, who may actually be the most viable at it, but is also at times a bit of extra insurance that could turn a push's favor otherwise, such as if you run a banner. Otherwise, it's up to the Sniper to take care of the other Sniper, who ends up being priority #1, and a game of peekaboo to take over the sightline(s) if one isn't already dead. The fact that the role of a character is only in execution readily weak to itself is a problem and Sniper is probably the only class that has such a characteristic in TF2, and it begs for other classes to be buffed rather than radically changing the basic functionality of Sniper. As such, I am inclined to say that I do in fact main an overpowered class.

[@anyarr]

Yeah. I think what isn't fun about Sniper is that in a team setting, if he's playing back and you can't reach him, you lose, unless someone goes Spy, Sniper, or Vacc Medic specifically to counter him (or Soldier/Demo but that's just suiciding). Unlike every other class, Sniper has no damage falloff, bullet spread, or otherwise limit to damage or effective range based on distance from target. Sure he's supposed to be the long range class, but does he have to be an infinite range class too? On maps with big sightlines (aka most of them), he's at such a huge advantage. In casual/highlander, the sheer number of players makes getting to him so hard that it doesn't matter if you have a double jump ability or a jetpack, you'll die to either him or his team before you close the distance enough to even really hurt him, let alone kill. I'm really not sure why jbird mentioned mobility options like those since they're almost never viable in a real game, and your ability to flank him depends entirely on if none of his team is watching the flank. While it is true that players are more likely to help Medics than Snipers, they're already inadvertendly helping Snipers by killing players who try to get behind their team, so it's a moot point. It's not like your average TF2 player will give up a free kill on someone distracted by a Sniper. Also unlike other classes, as you mentioned, Sniper's sightlines create a unique kind of danger and area denial. Demoman and Engineer are the two strongest at area denial, but all of their area denial heavily depends on stationary damage sources - stickies and sentries. The Sniper, though, can just walk somewhere, and now any place where he can see you, you are in danger, and you have to hide or risk dying instantly. Of course, I still have to respect good Snipers because it is *so* hard to aim in TF2.

[@CheeseManFuu]

@@anyarr I don't particularly mind that he has an effective infinite range, especially since most solutions would provide unnecessary complications with a weapon with little margin of error. Again, my issue is that there is little to counter it, and that there need to be better methods than making really quick peeks from cover to cover. The point about helping Medics over Snipers was also odd, as though speaking about the frequency that people will sac for the Medic is an indication that Sniper is not cared about? The sole healer that *has* to be on the front line with everybody else, where he can easily be spammed, and much safer than in between/behind the enemy team where you can be easily caught, especially by fresh respawns? The biggest factor about Demo and Engi's area denial is that it implies that they are/were in that area and generally close enough to spam out or overpower around the corner, generally meaning their presence lies in proximity, whereas Sniper's is solely the presence of his sightline. (Edit: I also just realized that you don't really even know which sightline the Sniper is looking down; you can easily check for sticks or hear a sentry that's close by, but a Sniper that knows how to hide his dot is simply impossible to tell, so you have to be paranoid about turning every corner!) It's also important to note that just being anywhere doesn't make Sniper's sightline that powerful, it also has to comply with your team's presence of covering the right things like tighter chokes and flanks (i mention tighter chokes in particular since the more cluttered a combo is together, the harder it is to target specific classes). Covering a wide area like Badwater 1st isn't just as easy as sitting by the sentry nest; it requires some sort of ciphening the other team in a place that's more convenient. However, unlike, say, pushing to bait a team so your Spy can get a pick, covering areas can be done very passively and safely without commitment, whereas baiting for Spy requires anything from saccing a class or two to even using your Uber.

[@DankDimensionMemes]

This needs more recognition. Amazing points.

[@nexusthenormie5578]

Ah yes an arguement against sniper that isn't just points that amount to "Sniper is overpowered because he's good at his job"

[@th3comb1ne13]

The sniper needs frequent protection to be effective. The mere existence of a spy (or any other flank class) requires a team to invest resources into protecting the sniper. This is why it is seen as a large disadvantage when your sniper is not up. Just like an uber, the team needs to invest resources in order for it to be effective. You will be loosing out on that investment if the sniper dies. TLDR sniper is not overpowered. He requires protection/resource investment to be effective, just like the engineer and medic. With this being a team oriented game, teamwork will always win. And sniper needs teamwork to have any sustained value.

[@Bruh-jo4lb]

Great vid quad d, I would say maybe switch up the gameplay on different maps to offer some variation throughout the vid. Also, if you could, working on-screen visuals into the script is helpful for the attention of the viewer and it feels more organized. Overall, great job man, love what you do. Keep on :)

[@-tweeomoz-1786]

Nicely done video, but I disagree in some places. 1. Though players do have plenty of movement options to evade a sniper, I still feel that headshots/bodyshots are too punishing. A fully-charged bodyshot is enough to kill five out of the nine classes in one go, which I think is simply unfair just because the victim wasn’t laser-focused on dodging a sniper in the distance. 2. Sniper practically has free melee crits with the jarate/bushwacka, he shouldn’t be able to have 2 instakill options from both infinite range and from melee range (headshots can instakill from melee anyway). Remember how the spy’s ambi was nerfed because it was too good at range in addition to his backstab? 3. I don’t agree on some of the weapons/movement options you listed being viable counters to sniper’s aim; blast jumping makes the jumper extremely easy for most skilled snipers to pluck out of the air with a quickscope, leaving the target to crater or land and suffer the wrath of the SMG. The thing about the medic changing speed depending on who he’s healing is not only incredibly niche, but only applies to scouts or demoknights. The GRU is a tool that the heavy must use incredibly sparingly because it drains his health and, by the time he gets to where he needs to be, he’ll be a sitting duck while revving up his mini-gun. The one combo I can’t argue with is the vaccinator + fists of steel, but at that point, two players are changing their loadout to deal with one class; the fact that you *need* a medic and a heavy (2 people) to fight a sniper (one person) seems busted to me anyway. 4. I think that quickscopes at close range somewhat defeat the purpose of sniper being weak at closer range. Even if something does take tremendous skill, that doesn’t mean it’s fair to fight against (Zesty Jesus did a terrific video on this, the sniper can quickscope faster than the human eye can blink). Anyway, I still think the video was a nice way of expressing your opinions. I thank you for taking the time to read my comment, I’m glad we can discuss things like this. EDIT: At 13:00, you say that “every class has unfair tools in certain situations.” A backstab requires not only melee range, but a target that is facing away from you; a headshot requires that you can see your enemy. The spy’s backstab will never be unfair because of how easy it is to catch even the best spies in the act by paying attention, while a sniper can basically backstab you from anywhere AND from the front, not to mention that he also has a melee instakill option for every class except heavy and a soldier freshly leaving spawn. You can’t say that the other classes are unfair in some situations to justify sniper’s power because he is unfair in EVERY situation. The other classes aren’t really “unfair” anyway.

[@bryanchox]

All classes are overpowered in the hands of the right player

[@nicksmith701]

I was about to say the same thing!

[@snackermantm105]

*It ain't the size that matters, it's how you use it*

[@hobobobo5244]

And it's really hard to get good enough to become that type of player, that's why it's a great game

[@Alex-bk5hc]

Demoman and pyro in p ubs lol

[@plummeted]

Except heavy

[@dragon444140]

love the battalion's in casual games, it just requires some-SOME, team co-ordination. saying something like "Let's push this sniper in 10 seconds when my banner's active" will instantly trigger people into wanting to punish the sniper they've seen, or died to. and if you on the enemy team, and you see, like, 4 people push your sniper instead of the objective, they wouldn't care, lol. Love the video keep up the good work :)

[@ondrejbarinka9252]

Yay a sponsor, congrats Jbird, keep up the great content and Sniper highlights!

[@jbirdTF]

Thanks!

[@whammeister3002]

excellent points! it can be pretty annoying when the other teams runs a full-time sniper in 6s and basically changes the flow of the entire game, but honestly at least there's specific ways to play around the sniper. it can be just as frustrating if the enemy team has a scout, soldier, or demo that's a higher skill level than your team.

[@fozart-9309]

Whenever you bump into some wild player in tf2,class seems op. Imagine scout that always hits meatshots,he can kill soldier faster than sniper can lol. And also,while sniper is cool for picks... he'd bad for winning. He's a support class after all. Alone,he dies fast,with a team,he can kill targets one by one,unlike demo or soldier or even heavy,that just can destroy entire game on their own,not to mention the help of crits or uber. Ubered sniper can't do shit,compared to other attack classes. And of course,sniper can't do shit against w a l l s,yeah lol. Imagine a map with lots of corners,sniper is fucking dead,he won't be able to find any other class in such situation.

[@yellowg7601]

If sniper was op, I'd be winning every casual game with 5 snipers

[@DankDimensionMemes]

I actually do win every round with 5 sniper lol

[@MortChrist]

Nicely detailed and level-headed point of view on the topic. With 9k hours in tf2 myself spread across all 9 classes, I've asked myself the same and I largely agree with what you state in the vid. There is fundamentally and mechanically little wrong with the sniper and there rarely has been throughout the game's history. The only mechanically broken thing I recall was the issue where a headshot hitbox could appear in the crotch region and the competitive meta where a medic could overheal razorback snipers were also horrible balance design, but that's really about it. The main issue sniper as a class has is mainly focused around map design and the lack of class balance put in mind when said maps where created, especially for the older maps in the game. Maps like Upward, the pub version of Badwater, Swiftwater, Harvest, Granary, Snowycoast & Thundermountain come to mind as maps with glaring issues including way too influencial sniper sightlines which they simply end up dictating the game almost entirely alone. At most, you could argue for nerfing quick scoping at short range mechanically since those especially can feel like bs and works against the whole glass cannon idea of long vs close range. Rather than just the sniper being too strong in concept on his own, I see the strength of the sniper class as a consequence of poor map design and the spy being the weakest class in the game, especially post amby nerf. TL;DR Sniper OP cuz spy sux and map design bad.

[@NikolasoGames]

Map design and movement speed, and probably the fact that players can get angry at anything, and pulling the blame-game on the first thing they've either heard or seen. Most of these complaints DO come from people who in-fact, never play sniper. Me only having him played a few hundred hours, still can understand the struggle he goes through, and then the surprise when you find that a map just has the most perfect sightline for you because the design wasn't well thought. The same goes for engineer's sentry spots. Of course people love to argue that; "If my entire team needs to kill you then wtf" Like idk, is that so unusual in tf2? Especially if the other team is playing very DEFENSIVELY, which is famous for just wasting the Attacking team's time. Does your entire team actually need to kill the sniper or just like.. one or two guys?

[@moonstew]

*looks at the effect sniper has on every highlander match ever* maybe

[@mrmarioscatman]

Yes. Why is this a question?

[@HulksterHogan]

Would be interesting to see the same question but with Soldier. I've never really thought Sniper was OP because like you pointed out he has an obvious downside but Soldier on the other hand really doesn't have any and it would be interesting to see someone tackle that question. I feel like no one brings up the question just because of the sheer amount of hate and toxicity they would recieve just suggesting the topic.

[@MrBryan1430]

It’s due to the fact that soldier in his design is a generalist core combat class. He’s meant to be fighting and is generally good at combat. His weaknesses are built into his weapon the rocket launcher. It has a slow reload which can allow other classes to close the distance, if he wants to kill you at close range he would have to trade his health for splash damage and for him to move around the map effectively he would need to trade his health for rocket jumps. He’s a jack of all trades so while in combat he is good other classes will outshine him when comes to taking or defending objectives.

[@j-69]

Pyro? While not a perfect counter, it's a pretty obvious one.

[@mekhane.broken9678]

"Sniper isn't overpowered " Says the sniper main

[@ashtongiertz8728]

5:19 wrong. It's the most overstated. There are aim trainers you can use to quickly improve your aim in any FPS game. But things like movement, positioning, and game sense can only be learned by playing the actual game. Getting good at aiming is less like learning a skill and more like exercising a muscle.

[@ashtongiertz8728]

Also, since it uses gross motor skill, most of the improvement is made early on and slows down exponentially. The only way to get the rate back up again is to take a break. Mastering an entire class should not be this formulaic.

[@smegmuhfondue3021]

the problem with sniper is that there arent reliable ways to counter him, you are never in control of the situation, no matter where or what class you are playing

[@nonce5152]

Vaccinator is pretty reliable

[@sylvidra5683]

@@nonce5152 yes, let's just say you want to use the vaccinator, and then you realize it's not worth it unless there's good people on your team.

[@ApertureBlack]

@@nonce5152 Thats a 2 vs 1 scenario at minimum

[@macabweu7682]

What kind of game you playing? I've dunked of good snipers as Soldier just because I know where they're focused and avoid that area. Or just rush at them during a push. Sniper has to reload. He Can only shoot one person at a time.

[@psychoandfbi]

Wow.. I have the same hours as you and started around the same time as well. Good to see a veteran still playing tf2 now

[@jbirdTF]

:D

[@nikoyay]

Wait, your nickname is "jb" and jb is almost jbird... hmmmmm

[@MistaOceans]

Great video - I was wondering, what settings do you use for TF2?

[@DeletedTaters001]

Really great video and explanation! (Fellow sniper main myself). People really, *really*, underestimate the importantance of good movement.

[@popetdepop7169]

I love how people say that it's super hard to kill an amazing sniper because sniper's op like if it was not the case with any other class, 4 days ago I was in a game with a scout that went on a 47 ks and he was practicly unkillable but I didn't say that scout is op and that's the same with everyclass

[@nexusthenormie5578]

I absolutely agree with you, I have seen a paragraph of a comment basically making points which are stupid and basically amount to "Sniper is overpowered cuz he's good at his job".

[@smegmuhfondue3021]

the difference is that scout has to get close and actually engange an enemy, sniper just need to sit at the other side of the map and insta kill anyone he wants

[@popetdepop7169]

@@smegmuhfondue3021 yea and ?... Like scout has so much tools to get close where sniper doesn't so it's normal that they are effective at the range they are made to be. And he can't just instakill anyone he wants, it requires a lot of AIM, it's not as simple as you say. Sniper is powerfull but not OP.

[@SquirtleTurtle.]

@@popetdepop7169 Scout does barley any damage at far range, while sniper can deal 150 damage at any range. Your argument of of "effective ranges" doesn't fit here.

[@popetdepop7169]

@@SquirtleTurtle. it does, I just explain it, sniper isn't even close to be as effective as scout at close

[@jube8835]

The snipers main weakness if close range is really hard to achieve if the sniper is supported by a competent team, if you try to advance to the sniper the team will kill you or delay you long enough to get headshot, if you try to fight the team the sniper will kill you, try to fight the sniper by playing spy? Get killed by a sentry or pyro, try to counter snipe, the sniper was already watching that area and your dead, use coordination, you've killed the sniper but at a great cost A bot is an example of a sniper that has mastered aiming, if they see your head you're dead, for a class to be op there has to be much more effort to kill them than for them to kill you, and that sums up sniper, or at least a good sniper

[@Chaotix_]

I always hate fighting a good sniper, but I can't help but respect them. It's difficult to stay mad at them, at least for me. Unless they're a bot and the other team refuses to kick them.

[@jacehackworth6413]

Unless they can kill me constantly after getting close to them I have little respect for snipers. Most of the time they just stand in place and insta kill people from across the map, hardly honorable or impressive in my book.

[@sweetricecakeman8582]

@@jacehackworth6413... That's how to play sniper.

[@jacehackworth6413]

@@sweetricecakeman8582 Yes, I am aware that is how you play sniper, I’m saying it’s lame. Sniper is too good at getting cheap kills easily and requires no skills other than aim.

[@jacehackworth6413]

@you're in mandom I’m an engineer main but ok.

[@trumpjesus3936]

Jace Hackworth imagine complaining about someone who has good enough aim the kill you at close range and then calling it skiless while you rely on sentries for kills lmao

[@lordmarum]

I applaud you on the calm, persuasive and comprehensive format of your video. I have to say that I don't agree with it fully, I think sniper goes against the overall short range design of the game and that its not a matter of Skill vs Reward but of Risk vs Reward. I agree more with the points you make when talking about possible counters (tho I do think sniper is a little bit too prepared for close range combat, and it feels like you have to stop playing the game to get to him if he is behind a full team). Almost every problem I had with sniper was addressed in your analisis, and even tho I may not completely agree on the conclusions, the fact that they were considered shows your wholistic understanding of the matter and your empathic view with the other side. This is trully a breath of fresh air after having to suffer through Zenith's "TF2: Why Sniper Doesn't Need a Nerf". (BTW, on the final part where you talk about the spies similar instakill potential comes around to the Risk problem. Spies go through a great danger when going through enemy lines to secure a backstab and then have to escape, excepting the dead ringer which has a design i hate. The sniper is usually very far away and behind his entire team for protection, and generaly when using his method of instant killing he finds himself in no greater danger for doing so)

[@vasteye7821]

Same thoughts before this :) But the additional statement you claimed about sniper's versatility, makes a strong opinion not just why sniper is not overpowered, but the firm playstyle sniper only offer to the player, scope, steady, fire.

[@theguywhoasked770]

close range quickscopes, are OP, unfair, anf unfun imo. good video, but i disagree

[@jbirdTF]

I appreciate the respectful input!

[@theguywhoasked770]

@@jbirdTF thanks bro. you're really fucking good btw

[@codwellcoldly9080]

A big problem with sniper is headshots being unable to avoid and some snipers can headshot at close range, when your battling a sniper you are rolling a die if he can hit a headshot. the deference between a backstab and headshot is counter play you can manipulate spies movements with splash damage . Sniper is unexpected and onuce found you have to respect his sightlines or you can get killed , and a good sniper knows how to keep distance and hit midair headshots or bodyshot for knockback and stopping the enimies momentum.

[@demo7351]

dang bro congrats on getting sponsored

[@fcnth]

No, Sniper isn't overpowered, he's just annoying to fight against if the person playing him is really REALLY good, and it takes some serious dedication to get good at Sniper. Besides, there's so many ways to circumvent Sniper sight lines that in some maps he becomes about as useless as a Scout against a nest of level threes. As a Medic main I'd rather deal with a good Sniper than with a Demoman or roamer Soldier of the same calibre.

[@spyrocoolnessspyronlink]

Agreed. Close the distance against sniper he is mostly dead. Unless you are in a position where he can quick scope you but most of the time he's screwed.

[@cristiandalpino3833]

If the only way to get around a sniper is never being in the sightlines, otherwise it's an instant death, it's 100% overpowered And please, please don't just say "flank him", he has a team, the team can cover the flank while the sniper covers the entire choke by himself

[@spyrocoolnessspyronlink]

@@cristiandalpino3833 Spy is the hardest counter to sniper, even with the razorback. I know spy isn't the most valuable in competitive. But a good spy can consistently get behind the enemy team and get a few picks as well as the sniper. Spys get the most value out of distractions and sometimes get a uber drop with the right position and timing. Edit: plus the many resistances in the game covered in this video would help against a good sniper. (Vacinator, dalocus bar with the health increase, not in video but I thought I put it in, metal gloves, etc.)

[@cristiandalpino3833]

@@spyrocoolnessspyronlink I'm 100% talking about competitive, if the snipers team noticed that there is 1 less member on the enemy, they will know that there's a spy around there, and count when he will decloak. It's not that hard for a coordinated team to predict a spy

[@xensakura595]

emphasis on SOME maps certain maps need to be fixed so they don't have absurd sniper sightlines

[@purpleloser8591]

The pyro at 4:04 is me lol. Congrats on killing me :)

[@mysterpapo]

There are many ways to counter sniper. My favourite is to hope they are bad.

[@ashtongiertz8728]

10:08 yeah, but it's significantly harder to break the range barrier than it is to create it, especially when the map lacks decent flank routes.

[@Sjon_E]

Yeah, he's answering this question in some theoretical scenario, not reality where you're fighting 10 other enemies and the sniper is behind those 10 other enemies and is able to kill you instantly from halfway across the map.

[@fishstickonastick-gaming]

I'm just shy on 400 hours on Sniper, so not nearly as much experience, but I'll say my piece. I feel like for more than any other class, Sniper's balance is dictated by the design of the map. CTF maps in particular are Sniper paradise because they have massive sightlines with few flank routes, Turbine in particular is really bad with this, as in order to flank the Sniper in his most effective stationary spot, you have to go past the enemy spawn and through the Intel room. Either that or just throw as many bodies and projectiles towards him as possible and hope he backs off. The way I see it, if you play on maps that give Sniper uncontested massive sightlines, you have no one to blame but yourself when those Snipers take advantage of it. I've gotten the vast majority of my Sniper reflex training done on maps like Turbine and Doublecross because it's just easier than on well designed maps. I actually barely used to see complaints regarding Sniper balanced until SoundSmith started talking rather passionately about it and hey, guess what maps he almost exclusively plays on. Not to shittalk the dude too much, I don't think he wants people to take his position on game balance too seriously, but then that does make me wonder why he keeps saying these things in the first place. All this being said, I would say that Sniper has some balance issues that I would like to see corrected. In particular, I think he has too much sustainability, 25 reserve ammo for such a powerful weapon is a lot when it has a passive reload, instakill damage and infinite range. Even the Demoman needs to reload after firing 12 explosives in a row. This means Snipers can camp areas for a very long time without really having to move out of an extremely advantageous position, which is especially irritating when that position is somewhere that the Sniper can see you, but you can barely see him. I'm looking at that window on Doublecross and that rock that looks straight into Badwater spawn. I think lowering his reserve ammo count would be one way to give enemy teams a slight advantage in that Snipers have to move out of advantageous positions more often, or restrict themselves to playing around Dispensers and metal packs, making his balance very similar to Engineer's, which is fitting as I see Sniper as kind of like a long range Sentry Gun with a slower firing speed. No one is going to claim that a Sentry Gun is overpowered because there's very few positions on a map where they can be effective and sustainable, and players learn these spots and their counters over time. The same can easily be said of Sniper sightlines, though some of those are still blatantly unfair, the second point of Frontier is one I'd point to there. On the whole, good video, at least some people are out there defending Sniper.

[@Manuel-ek2cf]

Hi 😳 👉👈

[@jbirdTF]

Well said. And I think I agree with the ammo change as well.

[@zekel.h.17]

i do sometimes believe that sniper may be the most powerful of the "assassin" classes, as in of scout, spy, and himself, he is arguably the most efficient at the job

[@macabweu7682]

Exactly. It's like Soldier, Demo, and Pyro. Soldier requires more skill then Pyro and Demo requires more skill then Soldier. So Demo is the most efficient class. But the others make up for it with various little bits that they can use to make up that short coming. Pyro can Airblast and is a good enemy softener. And Soldier has his Banners and can doesn't have to aim perfectly to best hit the enemy. Both especially excel better with crowds of enemies.

[@GreatWorkBoss]

"Everything Spy can do, sniper does better!" - FUNKe

[@xml4127]

Oh yes the classic Raid shadow legends

[@Brook_42]

Is Sniper overpowered? Heavies: да

[@TonyMontana-nu8cz]

as a sniper main i approve this video.

[@The_Troid]

The thing is as said in the video sniper is overpower at long and maybe medium ranges but the thing is saying that he isn't op because you can easy kill him in short ranges or the mayority of classes has items that reduce the damage or negate the headshots isn't something that would make him less op moistly because no good sniper would try to be at a short range the mayority of the time they would be at places that isnt reachable for the mayority of other classes or is very good hidden make him near invisible to fight against the only class that can kill a sniper at a long distance is another sniper or a soldier if the sniper didn't see him

[@casualuser8064]

Sniper in invite 6s is balanced because in that format it's high risk, high reward and usually saved for desperate moments or on maps with prolonged stalemates. In HL the sniper often singlehandedly swings the balance of a match and I think it's one of the reasons that people don't want to play the gamemode. I know Dane argued for "trickle-down balance" but in casual play where there's rarely any team coordination sniper is a broken class. You can one-shot any class and deal 50 damage without scoping; Pyro isn't fun to play against, sniper is OP.

[@SolidRoach69]

Sniper is OP when you are good, cause if you can headshot while hiding behind sentries and medics you're unkillable and powerful at the same time.

[@impish492]

yeah, but you can say that with any combo. a demo combo is arguably stronger, any class with a medic and/or sentry is stupid broken vs one player

[@moogobIin]

@@impish492 demo can't lock down choke points and threaten the existences of medics by existing.

[@macabweu7682]

@@moogobIin Neither can Sniper.

[@zaipollizamabdulmalek5822]

@@macabweu7682 sniper can headshot from any range and he deal exactly 150 damage(same as medic health). Which is already dangerous if medic saw a sniper.

[@muczkapl]

As a hybridknight main, imho sniper is only overpowered in places that you can't get him on meaning just open spaces and chokes that the entire enemy team is pushing through, since then the only thing that can shut down a sniper is a spy who just saw that there is an oppurtunity for a sick chainstab (then he dies immediately). There are many ways to counter a sniper behind a corner with little or no support, like jumping on him when he's fired a shot (and die to a random melee crit ~75% of the time). The greatest enemy to a oneshit kill is a one shot kill, and I don't mean a sniper or a spy, screw it even fan of war and a meatshot can deal 146 damage, charging with the tide turner and any sword is enough to oneshot them most of the time (with the additonal fun of a jumpscare) so sniper is op only when he can see you when you can't see him (aka like verything else in the game)

[@ThatRipOff]

I agree with everything said here, Mr. Bird. Very good analysis.

[@nathanroman6566]

I think you make valid points as far as balance and how powerful sniper is. The issue most people have with him I think is he feels out of place sometimes. Every other class in TF2 fights in close to mid range the majority of the time. Sniper’s the only class with consistent long range capabilities. So it feels jarring (as you said in the video) to be killed from long range; when you’re used to most combat being in your face. All of this makes sniper probably the most unfun to play against in my opinion. Especially when quickcopes can one shot half of the classes when they’re not buffed. That being said, I respect the hell out of anyone who can play sniper consistently well. Clicking on heads is much harder than shooting the ground, and things like ping and lag compensation can wreak havoc.

[@brunonczmaus]

for me its the 150 quickscope that is the big problem, that number should be 125, but the charge meter should be faster to balance that. Giving out on awareness around you and scoping in is what makes sniper balanced in my opinion, so you be penalized for not being scoped long enough e be rewarded (+damage already its a reward and even more with fast charge rate) for properly choosing the right time to be scoped in.

[@watema3381]

Short Answer: Yes Long Answer: _Yeeessss_

[@andresrios1117]

its not fun to fight against, not overpowered maybe if you played the class you would see how much effort it takes to get gud at sniper prob u main it or can play it consistantly and i said this because, anyone reading your comment could think ur a ragin kid that doesnt like gettin headshotted

[@JackSnotty]

Longer answer: Being easy to play does not make something over powered, and being hard to play does not make something underpowered, and even then, sniper can kill 5 out of 9 classes with just a fully charged bodyshot and he is very hard to fight if you are not also sniper. He can lock down an area like a demo, he can kill anyone from anywhere. He is the only truly long range class in the game so the only way to not die is to avoid him and kill him while he’s doing something else, in LazyPurple’s video ‘how it feels to play Scout’ he says that every class in the game would preform better if their opponents were turned-around doing other things, but outside close range, it’s the only way to fight him. it’s like how in 2007 you couldn’t destroy stickybombs unless you killed the demo, but this time it’s hitscan quickybombs that deal upwards of 450 damage. Being hard to play does not make something not OP, take Bayonetta pre-nerf or melee Fox or brawl Meta-Knight. And besides, hitting headshots isn’t that hard anyway.

[@andresrios1117]

@@JackSnotty well said

[@eX1st4132]

when one kills me, yes. when i kill one, its a balanced class.

[@duxwontobey4887]

I think you missed a few very key points here. 1. There isn't really another single class in the game that ever makes me *need* to change my loadout outside of a few fringe things like switching off cow mangler if I've been playing some dumb soldier shit on defence, or ironically equipping the razorback if spies are an issue. With the sniper, I need to switch to roaming soldier or vaccinator or any number of other things that are imo not very fun to play with, specifically when they make me weaker to other classes in the progress. Sniper controls a lot of the item selection for the enemy. 2. All the weaknesses of distance are completely removed with any competent team or with a sniper who plays less aggressively than you do. It's easy enough to say "close the distance ez kill" but if I have to run past a sentry, heavy, medic, soldier and all sorts of other stuff to get to the one sniper who is killing our entire team my options are A. Spy or B. Snipe Better and even then Razorback and good reactions can make playing spy against a good sniper horrible, so in that circumstance he's kinda uncounterable as a class without being a better sniper. 3. A lot of snipers I encounter know exactly how to counter erratic or fast movement. I'm a half decent sniper most of the time, slightly above average maybe? Or average? idk, but either way I can often easily track a flying demo or soldier even if they're a way better player than me on paper. Also close headshots can often be easier cuz.. the target is just bigger. So altho there are some counters to sniper, they either force you to play in a way that leaves you incredibly vulnerable to every other class or just is plain unfun for most people, and even if you try to counter them you still might just get headshot anyway or get killed by the sniper's team etc. Plus a lot of ways to kill a sniper are just to sac bomb them or demo jump to them and likely die as well.

[@beefybois4u288]

People forget about one weakness: Random Crits. Boom, the formula to defeating the S N I P E R.

[@firstname4097]

Battalions backup, vaccinator, or stock Uber helps with wide open, annoying sightlines

[@just1luckyguy229]

@@firstname4097 projectile spam also works wonders. And, you get that satisfying "ding" if you hit a guess shot

[@MagicRose03]

I would argue that spy has a slimmer margin of error, as missing a headshot as sniper is almost never as fatal as missing a backstab, and the steps required for an opportunity to headshot are fewer and less dangerous than the steps required for an opportunity to backstab

[@R3BYSeller]

Heavy says yes

[@WaldoKrayt]

Great video! I'd argue myself that sniper is indeed not overpowered, but considering how games go in a casual match, i can see why people would think that. Like there are barely no people who go ahead and pick a counter for a sniper who's messing up the enemy team, and as a consequence the sniper has free kills cause no one is trying to stop him. Which happens waaaay too often in casual matches. BUT! that's just how casual matches are, they are casual for a reason, so it's not surprising for literally any class to wreck havoc and go uncountered for the entire match (even more when those that do try and counter you are, well, not that experienced in the game, so you just kill them either way). I myself am a Spy main and i get a lot of kills in pubs cause no one counters me. And that's with Spy being one of the least powerful class the game has to offer. I've seen engis wreck havoc in pubs, cause no one picks a demo or spy to destroy their nests. When classes go uncountered everything can seem indeed overpowered. The only things that i'd say are indeed overpowered are some weapons. Scortch Shot comes to mind for example, i still can't understand how a single flare shot from that weapon can almost delete your entire HP bar lol (and that happens to me all the time when i'm playing sniper it's kinda infuriating lmao). Great analysis tho jbird! Keep it up.

[@emppudud5692]

Or when you know what to do but the enemy team tunnels you

[@multiwaypche6640]

For me sniper's greatest weakness is the map its self cus if you put yourself in the correct place, u either put the sniper in a useless position or changing places and taking risks that you are probably prepared for, and here's what I learned from this video : even with good snipers, your sniper skills r not consistent, sometimes you aim like a God and sometimes you feel like shit

[@exaltedfinalist9488]

In a comp setting like highlander where snipers are almost always protected 24/7, then yes, he’s op but in other modes, not so much cause once you die once, you usually can jump him with another scout or solider.

[@j-69]

Ignoring the rest of the sniper's team?

[@exaltedfinalist9488]

Well in 6s sniper usually is found out quickly and with how the gamemode is, sniper is getting jumped and has to rely more on surfing and moving to get a pick but he’s still A tier in 6s list since he can be used more often than other specialist.

[@j-69]

@@exaltedfinalist9488 I get what you're saying, but usually when there's a sniper in 6s, the enemy team just pressures him until the other team decides to make a play, and then they can kill the sniper. You don't usually see a sniper without his team with him, so it's not as simple as just jumping him.

[@exaltedfinalist9488]

@@j-69 I get your point. Thanks for clarifying

[@naqib0264]

A good sniper can just quickscope/headshot you at close range which feels pretty bullshit. So the only way to nerf this class is that the headshot's damage becomes more weaker at medium to close range Like, instead of doing 150 damage at close range, it does 70 - 80 damage, while the no scope shot deals 30 damage so that Classes like pyro, scout, and spy can be given a chance to fight the sniper. I don't know if this is a good idea but let me know what you think!

[@GrimSawyer52]

While I don't think the sniper himself is overpowered, I agree since from what I have seen is that quickscoping is kinda bull. He does have close range defensive(or offensive) options, so I see quickscoping as kinda pretentious and unnecessary.

[@ME0WMERE]

Totally agree. I think an inverse damage falloff, like the crossbow, would balance the sniper.

[@elecman748]

dominates a entire server, does 25/1 K/D ratio, and says is fair and balanced

[@mrmelon4534]

@bioluminescent "just get gud lmao" is still my fav defense for sniper

[@Svar3n2527]

so you can't get 25/1 kd on most other classes while having 2,7k hours on 1 class?

[@marhunter1698]

Em yes, next cushion

[@entropycookies582]

Ey I'm early, love your content

[@nexttoradio]

I've never been a big fan of the whole "well humans can't attain the skill ceiling of this class, therefore can't be OP" style of thinking. Maybe it's my background in chess where machines have massively changed the game over the last few decades, but I think that you can't discount the hypothetical best performance by saying "people will never be that good" and shrugging it off. There's always a possibility that someone CAN be that good and that should be taken into account when assessing the power level of a class. I also don't subscribe to your definition of OP. I understand that people have very differing definitions of OP and I really wish that we could get an actual definition of OP that works between games so that we can actually have meaningful conversations about OPness. Specifically I don't like how you seem conflate game impact with skill ceiling. The two definitely are connected, but they should NEVER be considered the same thing. Now do I think sniper is so OP that it needs to be gutted and blah blah? Of course not. I think in general the sniper is a well-balanced class and generally adds enjoyment to the game (until a god arrives then...FML), but I think that the bot crisis actually highlighted that when played perfectly the sniper is an overly-powerful class when compared to every other class in the game. I would like to see adjustments that bring the absolute perfect sniper play down a little, but in a way that doesn't massively punish people that have spent time mastering the aim and movement required of a sniper. I have plenty more I could say on the subject. My passion is game design and I'm always disecting games to try to understand them better. If you have any interest in further discussion of my opinion I'd be happy to engage, I just don't want to vomit TOO much word soup into your comments section.

[@offandsphere6788]

My idea is to make the headshot multiplier not rely on critical hits and instead rely on damage multipliers. A quickscope would grant a 2.5x headshot damage multiplier (125 damage), and full charge would grant a 3x headshot damage multiplier-the same amount of damage it does right now. (450 damage). The headshot damage multiplier would slowly scale up linearly as charge increases, so it would be 2.625x at 25% charge, 2.75x at 50%, and 2.875x at 75%.

[@nexttoradio]

If my math is right, in this example a sniper would have to have his scope charged for about 1/4 of a second in order to do the 150 damage medic-killing shot. Seems like a pretty dang good idea to me. I wonder if/how something like this would work with TF2's spaghetti code. Not that i think valve is at all interested in reworking sniper to any extent right now, but i do think it would probably take a bit of work to make such a system in the game.

[@jakobknecht7654]

@@nexttoradio Your point of "assume people can have 100% accuracy" is extremely flawed. Like, even as a chess player, the top players still make mistakes. No single person on earth is perfect, so trying to talk about balance and a perfect being is ridiculous. There are also definitions of OP and they are a lot closer to what Jbird says than to what you say. Your definition of OP doesn't work because you assume a perfect human which is, again, flawed logic. You've never played against heavy bots? Spy bots? Bots dominating is absolutely not related to a class, it's due to the fact that they have (near) perfect aim (alongside other things). Bots need to be fixed, not sniper. Your logic is, again, flawed. For someone who's passion is game design, I sure hope you reconsider your views before potentially making a game.

[@YesYES-no8kf]

Sniper is only OP until a pyro starts spamming scorch shot at you

[@diidac17]

But turns op Again when The sniper wears The Darwin shield

[@overlord3481]

yes, yes it is

[@knstoute]

Soundsmith belike HE IS OP

[@aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa69]

sniper just needs a viable counter, there is none

[@krakenofthesea106]

Yes, the spy is too weak. People are completely missing the point, it is like saying the crossbow should be nerfed. No, make medics other primary's better. Don't need the sniper, buff the spy.

[@josephg1125]

@@krakenofthesea106 Theres plenty of situations where nerfs are better then buffs and this is one of them, all it would take to counter a spy even if buffed is one teammate watching the snipers back

[@jordannuray]

You really hear this a lot as someone who plays sniper and actively tries to improve and get called a sweat or cheat for it

[@pankek5431]

Hey Jbird, you're a great sniper, so I wanted to ask you a question Why do you flick your mouse so much when you play? Is it to make it harder to hit your head for sneaky enemy snipers? When you play you do these sudden flicks to the side, so I'm just interested.

[@maildaemon]

I know I'm super late, but it's just part of his aiming technique. Everyone aims differently, but a common method incorporated with hitscan classes/weapons is to flick to your target quickly and _then_ shoot. Doing this as Sniper, you'd spot an enemy, scope in (if you aren't already) and then adjust your mouse _just_ enough to hit their head. It takes calibrating your sensitivity to what works best (again, different for everyone), as well as practice, as with any aiming method. There are a litany of other techniques for aiming, so this isn't a necessity by any means. Do what works for you :)

[@kannatheweeb8836]

7:00 sniper can surf rockets tho.

[@phineasg7709]

I would agree if a quickscope headshot and full charge bodyshot did 149 damage. The fact that you can quickscope a med tips the scale into overpowered for me.

[@jbirdTF]

I'm not opposed to a bodyshot damage reduction. But I believe the quickscope mechanic is one of the few elements of playing sniper that can diversify your gameplay and allow for aggressive play.

[@phineasg7709]

@@jbirdTF I agree with you mostly. Quickscoping is very fun to do and is absolutely good for diversifying sniper gameplay. I also think that you should be able to quickscope the 125 health classes. My issue is the fact that you can quickscope a full health medic specifically. Perhaps it's just the salty med main speaking though :P

[@Arno17905]

dude, even Medic can be overpower.

[@saviorbob]

To be honest skill is kinda OP

[@tsubakiwelfare9120]

In competitive sniper is kinda op if its in a pub then u have a 100% chance ur getting kicked lol

[@Multi1]

What baffles me is that you didn't talk about bodyshotting.

[@LeafStorm14]

I disagree on the movement options for Heavy. The unlocks that make Heavy move faster make him faster to die so most players won't use them. This puts Heavy on a lesser playing field in grounded movement against the other classes. That said, I would then call for what a "hard counter" and tie that along with the unspoken rock-paper-scissors exchange between each class dispute TF2's range of accessibility between all classes. I would also like to point out that the gameplay shown could've correlated to better show sniper's situation outside of CTF maps that encourage the team to split apart (attacking whilst defending on the same team).

[@jbirdTF]

If I were to do a full class matchup spread, yes, heavy loses to sniper 90% of the time. As for the gameplay, it was intended to be enjoyable filler. The video is a discussion, with my opinions. I'm sure most people can just imagine footage of me stomping a payload map or getting rolled in 5CP.

[@lMvNl]

last moment xD

[@buzzer2231]

Sniper sightlines make 50% of the maps design. If they are too long and give sniper too much power, its not a good map. Thats the power of sniper.

[@jbirdTF]

I definitely agree that there are very poorly designed maps which essentially make Sniper overpowered. But as the video was trying to cover a broad concept, I didn't think it was worth including for the arguments I was making.

[@DankDimensionMemes]

Bofore the video : yes After te video : still yes You didn't mention that by equipping certain weapons on classes, they need to sacrifice way more than a sniper, you didn't talk about spy being worse pick in every situation. Sniper takes way less risk compared to any other class, and even if you are not good at him, being able to do 150 dmg bodyshot from spawn is just ridiculous. So, is sniper OP? Because it is a straight upgrade to an other class, takes less risk than any other class to deal the same or more dmg from a protected zone, yes, in its current form, sniper is overpowered.

[@meepster12345]

Sounds like someone got owned by a good sniper as scout

[@DankDimensionMemes]

@@meepster12345 what does scout has to do with this, care the explain oh mister God himself

[@meepster12345]

@@DankDimensionMemes nah

[@DankDimensionMemes]

@@meepster12345 than get lost

[@meepster12345]

Adios

[@haydenkiller]

Time for me to get a bigger mousepad

[@the_womp_and_only9062]

I'd say Medic is Sniper's greatest counter which is why you don't see him often in 6s but he's so powerful in Highlander and PUBS: Overheal negates the one shot damage and, while you could just shoot them again, Sniper's effective fire rate is very low because you have to line up another headshot through a much tighter FOV. Most other classes can fire much faster and, since accuracy isn't as important, the effective fire rate is close to equal the actual fire rate. When overheal isn't as prominent or well dispersed like in Highlander, or isn't even a factor as in many PUBS, Sniper becomes incredibly powerful. But the counter exists not only in your own plays but getting a Medic or two.

[@theowlogram888]

Uh excuse me? Even overhealed heavies aren't safe from a fully charged headshot. And the medic himself drops to one charged bodyshot or quickscope. Unless he is overhealed but then it means it's a casual game and good snipers roflstomp those anyway. Now there is the vaccinator, but the pressure to just spam bullet resist all the time makes you free food for the sniper's teammate. And good luck touching sentries with this medigun lol. In the end, when you can just walk up to the medic's team, and drop him with 2 clicks the frame before his teammates kill you because his head wasn't perfectly behind the soldier's or something (like I've witnessed it quite some times) you can't really call him a counter.

[@the_womp_and_only9062]

@@theowlogram888 You're assuming the other classes like Scout, Soldier, flare spamming Pyros, other Snipers, or Spies aren't gunning for him anyways and he can't always fully charge shots. If you're letting him consistently charge shots it's your problem and good Snipers know that 150 headshots are their bread and butter. And Sniper can't 2 shot in a single frame, GTFO you little kid.

[@theowlogram888]

@@the_womp_and_only9062 I said "two click" because you need to right click to scope and then left click to fire duh. And "the frame" refers to the fact as long as the sniper is alive he can take someone down with him, much better than any other class. And sure, your team can shoot at him, but "good snipers that know 150 headshots are their bread and butter" can account for any kind of stutter and still quicksope you even if you're w+1ming them point blank with a flamethrower. And you're making it look like bodyshots are hard when you can just chill way behind the ruckus, knowing that the class that can reach you is the worst one.

[@the_womp_and_only9062]

@@theowlogram888 Then it's 2 clicks followed by waiting for the rifle to charge dingus. And Sniper can't take himself out with another class because his weapon is hitscan, a projectile class can still score a kill just after death. And when a Sniper is on fire it's luck if he hits you, plus you should've airblasted him if you're that close too, showing that you're just a w+m1 pyro. GTFO kid.

[@mrmelon4534]

@@the_womp_and_only9062 and you are assuming he doesnt have a team you sentient wet towel

[@slugger5280]

Yes

[@FriedRiceGod]

The player is overpowered

[@alphyr9537]

Its not op because half of the headshots dont even register, they just make a blood mark on the enemy face.

[@wojtekkrzak6169]

What is yours hud?