THE 15-PSI EBAY GT45 TURBO CHALLENGE! CAN ANY TURBO MAKE MORE HP THAN A GT45 (@15 PSI) ON THIS V6?

[@briantessereau4620]

Running amazon turbo $140 on speed 3 at 23lbs been almost 2 years now..keeps up with my baby pte 5858.

[@bryanphipps9131]

PTE actually supports US workers, it's worth the money to me.

[@SPARTANLuis067]

Hell yeah! If it works who cares what brand it is lol

[@07slowbalt]

I had a 3800 in my 97 grand prix se. I couldnt imagine going from 195hp to 500hp+ lol. That car ran pretty good for its time but there is no way that transmission would survive!

[@unclesquirrel6951]

Personally I blame squirrels

[@madmodsgarage1179]

Huh

[@michaelgarrow3239]

Nuts!

[@bluecollarfox916]

Before watching this video, my guess is that at all the turbos make the same-ish power at any given boost. The only time it should be less is if the exhaust housing is too small creating back pressure. Let’s see if I’m an idiot

[@derekmaxwell8164]

Also a smaller turbo would raise the iats lowering power correct? From what I've heard

[@hemi4837]

I was thinking the same thing about back pressure being the only reason for reducing HP, but otherwise they should all make the same HP I would think.

[@bluecollarfox916]

@@derekmaxwell8164 I think the boost level is what raises IAT. Not the size of the turbo. Not sure tho

[@derekmaxwell8164]

@@bluecollarfox916 im not sure either but i seen a video of a cavalier and after about 32psi he started going slower and said it was cause by iats getting too high but i seen other combinations running much more boost.

[@TheOhsemix]

@@derekmaxwell8164 this is due to the fact ECU pull timing with high IATs. The part about psi making the same HP I don’t think that’s the case going from a gt28 to a gt35 you will see significant gains at the same psi. It’s just the CFM on larger turbos is much higher allowing for more air to flow at a given psi. Think of it like this you have a hose that has 1/8” ID and one with a 1ft ID now pressurize both to 10psi. Which one will have more force behind it if you could theoretically could hold your finger over both?

[@martinherrington4885]

Anyone want to bet that the 3800 will make over 1000 hp before it breaks ? I expect cash app

[@Fk8td]

I know it’s expensive but what about a new g series turbo? A g30-900 with a 1.21 AR housing. I’d imagine that would spool at least as good but more exhaust flow provide less back pressure increasing removal of exhaust gasses from the cylinders.

[@jaydubb71]

I hope these companies step up. The real challenge is to do this and make it affordable...

[@sepg5084]

For them to step up, it should have a benefit to them. If no benefit, them no reason to step up. I wonder if all the shops that use a certain brand of turbo (like Precision turbos over Garrett, Borg Warner, etc.) just have discounts from that turbo manufacturer or they do see a benefit of using one turbo brand over the other?

[@danielsullivan9865]

The manufactures that sell their turbos for big bucks are not going to go for this test because it’s gonna make them look bad. On this low boost level with Intake manifold air temperatures the same because of the water air cooler there should be no difference.

[@BobF315]

I’ll put my $$ on any cheap eBay 7875 with a 1.25ar preferably billet wheel. I just picked up a forced performance 7582 T4 1.25 that I think will be perfect in the 7-900hp area but better suited to my 408 than a typical 7875.

[@pmd7771969]

He's trying to blow the motor B v

[@Anarchy-Is-Liberty]

OK, I have smoke coming outta my ears now... how is anything going to change if all you're doing is using different turbos, yet all running the same boost level? That'd be like removing one set of 12:1 pistons, and replacing them with another set of 12:1 pistons, and thinking you're going to gain 50 extra horsepower!!! ROFLMFAO!!!! Maybe I'm missing something here, but that's where I'm at for now!!

[@richardholdener1727]

you are missing the point of the test

[@TurboRanger351]

Honestly, I think a small frame t4 will be the way to go. I guess we shall see.

[@whataboutbob7967]

Anybody here run Ostrander turbos. I met Ray years ago, what a nice man, but I think they are used in marine enviroments....?

[@pmd7771969]

Fill the block and e 85 it.

[@The3chordwonder]

What if my turbo is has leaky center section which happens to be lubricated by N2O? :)

[@ChurchAutoTest]

Winner!!

[@pmd7771969]

150 to 200 hp per cylinder would be nice. Well from a race motor anyway. Lol

[@bcbloc02]

If you were running like 30psi the turbo power differences would be more obvious. At only 15psi going to be hard to see a 2% change in boost to back pressure ratio amount as much horsepower.

[@TheFrankencrx]

yup.

[@littleherms3285]

Yup

[@tturi2]

I think it will be a political minefield to get turbo companies to willingly get themselves ranked if you get me

[@SpecialAgentJamesAki]

Hell yeah call em out!

[@Idontwantaname313]

I love what you’re doing with this l67 man. I have an 04 Impala SS that’s equipped with this engine. I was planning to do an ls4 swap, but now. You have my attention.

[@iTzvMercyzSN1PS]

Hey buddy I’m putting a gt45 onto a Rb20det , what’s your thoughts

[@LEXLUTHER66666]

Where’s Bullseye TCT or batmo when you need it?!?

[@richardholdener1727]

disco potato

[@kennethpowers8995]

I wish I had Flywheel numbers for the last 3800 we tuned because I think it could be a good candidate for this test. It was a mildly built series 3 on a PT67 and made 408whp/520+wtq @ 14.xx psi. Pump E85

[@richardholdener1727]

is the torque number high because this was an automatic

[@kennethpowers8995]

@@richardholdener1727 I’m not sure if that was the sole reason but yes it was a 4T65E car with some HD and non Hd parts swapping. But the car also had a small cam with lazy valve events so that as well as the intake setup added to the end result being much more TQ than HP. The owner loves it though; car is a blast in the street and sounds amazing for a front driver-a lot like a rowdy GNX actually.

[@Heathjham1]

Richard, I've really enjoyed watching your videos on supercharging vs turbo charging the 3800 V6! I was wondering if you could expand the experiment slightly to include centrifugal superchargers like the Vortech and Procharger models! I think that it would be really interesting to see the difference in efficiency and power output when compared to the Roots style superchargers and turbos!

[@richardholdener1727]

PLEASE SEE THE THREE VIDEOS I HAVE UP WHERE WE TESTED ROOTS, TURBO AND CENTRIFUGAL (EVEN TESTED TWIN SCREW IN ONE OF THEM)

[@young11984]

I would love to see this test but not a single turbo manufacturer will win the HP per Dollar of that GT45!!

[@pmd7771969]

Grand nationals did 800 0lus power back in 1993

[@mdoe8]

Would be fun to slap on a few older turbos as well. If you can find any from 80’s - 90’s. Maybe even some diesel turbos.

[@Thickercarton]

I’ve been wanting for this test! I remember you saying in another video given the same size turbo the cheap and good turbos should make the same power at same boost. I thought there was an engine masters where they picked up a significant amount going cheap vs quality. I don’t remember the exact episode or if they picked up that power at the same boost or not though, they just said the better turbo was good for more power. In any case I’d can’t wait to see the results!

[@davidreed6070]

If the air temperature and back pressure are the same, there will be no as in 0 difference

[@cnknguyen]

Run one of those things for 8 hours straight under various loads and see what happens. That would be a cool video.

[@sepg5084]

If you could pay for it then maybe he'd do it.

[@cnknguyen]

@@sepg5084 ill put 300 bucks up to see it.

[@jesserasso1042]

A Richard that turbo spec is really close to the Borg Warner s369 turbo

[@MrScottt28]

I just don't get it. 15 pounds is 15 pounds. Right?

[@premiermarketingco]

Lol that’s not how it works

[@dirtcheapmedia3390]

Nope 15lbs is pressure. I bigger turbo will move more volume of air at same pressure and typically at lower iat which can allow for more timing and more power. But if compressor or turbine size is off it will affect performance

[@TurboTPI]

I’ve heard that 3800 combustion chambers make magic haha. That’s why they make good power with such small ports and valves. It’s all in the chamber. Who knows tho??

[@ianm432]

No different than a 2jz. The cylinder head is garbage but they just make power effortlessly

[@chaze1385]

How about a cast wheel vs billet wheel comparison.

[@griffittsgarage]

Makes me want one on my daily driver 68 Dodge Dart 😜

[@geardogg]

Comes down to efficiency. There's plenty of room for a more efficient wheels.

[@funcraig]

It would also be cool if those supplying turbos for the test gave a RRP for the turbo as well so the costs can be compared too

[@DBSSTEELER]

I would like to see turbos tested on the modern 3.6 V6 that GM is using now.

[@keevinsimpson5858]

Borg S366 SX-E 1.10 A/R Divided

[@brentonk461]

How about sponsoring me, and I'll build my 3800 Buick, Holden Motor to make 750hp at or under 15psi with a single ebay GT-45 turbo.

[@richardholdener1727]

did you have a question?

[@marknowakowski6590]

So say I want to boost an older LT1 from a 1995 reverse cooling set-up and the engine has over 150,000 original miles and is stock completely. So is it worth it to dabble into turbo power with just one due to the age of the internal components or would it just be best to rebuild the block components first so that all the internals are new and more capable of handling the larger power increases ????? Just as a starter.

[@richardholdener1727]

low boost is fine

[@michaelstoker6710]

I believe they all make around the same hp I believe the bigger difference would be in the spool rate and the over all power band.

[@ZachSayerRacing]

ask steve murch mseturbos he will be a know all lol

[@pmd7771969]

I've seen 800 hp v6 buick g n s in 1992

[@gbodypoofam5293]

Hi Richard i was wondering what should i run on my Lsx i have a lsx dr 4500 intake wanted to know if the 4 barrel throttle body or the elbow with a 105mn throttle body

[@richardholdener1727]

the 4500 throttle body should flow more unless it's a boosted blow through-then it doesn't matter

[@rickynelson3222]

You need to gap to rings for the turbo

[@th600mike3]

The vs racing 7875 gen 3. 9 blade turbine magic and a nice billet wheel. It will pick up. Billet wheels do "make more" but not as much as people think. They really help when you add anti surge to the compressor cover, and get a higher flowing turbine wheel. Anti surge housings increase low end flow and can help spool up. But drop off peak efficiency.

[@DaOnE51T]

Forced induction solutions is top tier nowadays

[@a2cryss]

I imagine it would come down to the boost vs back-pressure graph of the turbo. The turbo that can make 15PSI of boost with only 8PSI of back-pressure should make more power than on that has 20PSI of back-pressure. Of course the response would probably suffer. I think Richard covered this on a big block with different turbos.

[@sepg5084]

Not only that, but the air temps too. 15 psi of boost at a higher temperature compared to 15 psi of boost at a lower temperature, the hotter air will have less oxygen due to being less dense. Dyno air to water intercooler may have the ability to eliminate to equalize the IATs for different turbos, but if the turbos were using air-to-air intercooler then maybe we'll see a difference.

[@guyharrison909]

So a set boost level say 14psi equates to cfm or volumetric efficiency and that is a constant?

[@richardholdener1727]

14 psi applied to a 300 hp is not the same as 14 psi applied to a 400 hp motor

[@boosted0079]

Is this eBay turbo also known as the "T3/T4" Hybrid turbo?

[@richardholdener1727]

no-the GT45 is a T4

[@boomerisadog3899]

Would twin gt45's like this work ok on a cammed 396 bbc.

[@richardholdener1727]

IF YOU NEED 1500 HP

[@MustangCrazyMan72]

Nope, trick question.

[@lenardk4671]

Please do a video with a maxxed out turbo then add nitrous to see what happens.

[@jimbob-s4b]

How do you decide where to set your timing at with each psi adjustment?

[@richardholdener1727]

from experience

[@fredriksteen9765]

Any update on this video?

[@robvas]

Richard, what about doing two different blowers at the same boost level? Vortech V3 Si vs the Paxton 2200SL for the Coyote guys. Everyone says the bigger blower will make more power at the same boost level.

[@leadsled8961]

Boost is a messure of restriction to flow not flow. Just sizing the turbo correctly would make a difference.

[@vettedoctor6667]

The dyno is an artificial situation, not real world driving. Most turbo modifications are intended to allow the turbo to spool up quicker, increase pumping efficiency, allow higher boost levels, increase reliability etc. If you are limiting the total boost to a reasonable level (15 PSI) many of these modifications don't matter. On the dyno you even load the engine against the dyno before the run so it masks some of the turbo lag. Since this competition is measuring the max power achieved, even turbo lag doesn't matter that much. As Richard said before, boost is a multiplier. Barring a really bad turbo size selection, you will likely only see minimal changes in the max power output based upon tweaking the AR ratios to reduce backpressure.

[@ChurchAutoTest]

Cool idea Richard. But I gotta say I'm betting most manufacturers won't bite. I hope I'm wrong and you get a ton of stuff to tests, but no optimistic. Why? Because its the whole system that matters. A more efficient compressor wheel may not put as much heat into the charge, meaning you can change the size of the intercooler. A better design might have all kinds of boost response improvements (maybe even a smaller turbo to begin with) but make the same power. I'm sure there are some combos that will have a big enough difference in back pressure and/or compressor drive power to make a little extra power on the dyno, but it's unlikely there will be huge differences at the same pressure ratio, especially if we are correcting the dyno results for charge temps. Turbo improvements over the last decade seem really focused on getting smaller and smaller turbos to be capable of making more and more power so that we have broad power bands and good fuel efficiency. It was always possible to have a turbo that could feed 2000 hp. But until not long ago it wasn't really possible to put that turbo(s) in a streetable engine/chassis setup. Now we can.

[@richardholdener1727]

thnx-I agree this test won't show what turbos are capable of, but I'm trying to squash the belief that a guy can get big power gains (at the same boost) by simply putting on a bigger turbo-btw-how does the dyno correct for charge temp?

[@ChurchAutoTest]

@@richardholdener1727 Sorry, that was ill phrased. You're basically regulating charge temps in a non-realistic way for real world applications by using dyno water. It's an infinite supply of constant temp water. I haven't done any Bonneville cars in a while, but when we were doing the 1000+ hp 4cyl stuff, using 20 gal intercooler tanks (or bigger) we'd still see massive increases in water temps over a 2 min run cycle. Street cars with minimal reservoirs are worse. And a more efficient compressor will show far more benefit when you don't have the unlimited thermal capacity of a 300+ gal cooling tower. Beyond that, I appreciate trying to dispel myths. But the turbo manufacturers aren't promulgating the idea that bigger is automatically better. It's the corner speed shop guys who also tell you that your engine needs backpressure. I don't think the turbo companies have anything to gain in this situation. If we ever talk, ask me about the turbo comparison we did for Garrett with Toyota between the old GT35R, GTX35 and the GTX35 gen II on a 600 whp 4cyl race car. Very nuanced results that address a lot of what you're getting at.

[@sepg5084]

@@ChurchAutoTest though the people doing serious drag racing mostly use iceboxes for their intercooler setup, which for that short 1/4 mile run will actually outperform dyno water because the intercooler is colder than ambient. But i guess those people don't use turbos as small as GT45s 🙂 That said, I wish Richard also measured/shown the air temps exiting the turbo, so that we know how much the turbo is heating the air to produce the boost that it does. People who use air-to-air intercoolers would definitely appreciate it.

[@OCofthe3]

I don’t think the parameters of the test will highlight the difference in turbo efficiency and actually will make it harder to see. The big air to water intercooler and e85 will act to lower the charge temp which is what you are actually trying to test. You should still see results, but they will be much smaller than running no intercooler and gasoline. These things act like a buffer and will hide the turbos inefficiency.

[@karenashcraft8812]

Turbos of similar size will make similar HP. that being said if you put a bigger turbo like a 7875 or S475 it will make more power just not as much as you would think maybe 40hp more. id like to see an AVERAGE hp range for each of the turbos tested

[@richardholdener1727]

so you think a bigger turbo will make hp at the same boost?

[@karenashcraft8812]

@@richardholdener1727 i think a bigger turbo will make slightly more HP. but not a whole lot more

[@btchhopperou812]

Hey Richard, there is a guy in Connecticut, that is quite talented with 3.8L Turbo Buicks that is known as "The Bison"- he has a shop that Turbo Buick owners will send/bring/ship their cars(primarily 3.8 GN's -Turbo Regals). One of the 'services' he specializes in is 'customizing' turbo's for the V6 engines- and he's good at it. I'd like to see him put one together for your challenge. I'll pass the opportunity on to him to the best of my ability...✌

[@rickyr7790]

Would like to see the VSR7875 compared on this 3800. Seen it on your 2.4 and 4.8, would be interested to see something in between.

[@hlq16]

I think one comparable turbo would be the S476-sxe from BorgWarner. Sorta cheap for the size. If you have lost all reason and want to compare the ebay turbo to something 4 times its price, you can also use the G35-1050, and the BW 8474 Black series

[@77chevy4x4]

Now to build the sons firebird 96 v6 and my 78 468 with 600hp hmm 🤔 now we’re definitely heading in a better direction

[@jacksonbermingham2168]

get a pulsar on there

[@kylemilligan752]

Without ex backpressure data of the gt45 on the 3800 I'll still make my bet. Im betting a billet 72-75mm compressor, 88-90something mm turbine, with a 1.25 t4 turbine will be the custom turbo supplied to win the shootout.

[@kdsboosted4954]

1.25 is pretty big for a 6 banger

[@kylemilligan752]

@@kdsboosted4954 I agree, it'd be a lag monster, but i'll bet it's close to the ringer someone sends

[@kylemilligan752]

@@kdsboosted4954 It would be a dyno queen turbo for sure, but i'll wager 15psi intake manifold and 8-10 psi exhaust.

[@infinitig5392]

if somebody has turbo that is more efficient at the same point on that GT40's compressor map then ICTs will be way down and hp/ torque will be higher.

[@kaos33633]

I had a regal GS. I so badly want it back to turbo it now lol 😭

[@kaos33633]

Imagine the sleeper you'd have lol

[@randomlife718]

A great test to see hiw much being picky is worth.

[@tbyrd32able]

You know your gonna piss a lot of the manufacturers off right Richard 🤔😂. I love it, keep up the great work. I love your videos

[@richardholdener1727]

I doubt that-I think they have turbos that will be better

[@tbyrd32able]

I’m sure they do, I can’t wait to see the results. Have you done a twin turbo setup on an L83 yet? If not I would love to see how the gen 5 5.3 reacts to twin turbos. Be blessed and keep up the great work.

[@neilf740]

G35 - 900 - Genuine Garret. Not a dodgy copy. It'll be negligible at top end but massively better before...

[@user-pm8xv4sh5e]

Add a 2nd one lol

[@rocketsurgeon11]

Because of the amount of intercooling and E85, I am not so sure you are going to see an increase in power at 15psi. I would love to be wrong and be able to say that you get what you pay for, but I think that parameter is measured in different ways and can be somewhat subjective.

[@halfbakedcoatingsllc9911]

I really wanna switch from my cx racing T76 to the GT45 but the gt 45 has a 3.5 inch outlet and my downpipes is only 3" for 3 feet then 4" the rest of the way (downpipe us punched between the frame rail and header on my 91 camaro! If I had adapters made to mate up the gt45 to the 3" downpipe would I be gaining anything?

[@foghornleghorn8536]

Run the turbos with an air to air intercooler sized for the expected horsepower level, you'll find the better turbo then.

[@richardholdener1727]

why would that change things?

[@foghornleghorn8536]

@@richardholdener1727 I'm thinking the cheap turbo will create a much higher charge temperature for a given boost level, something that could easily be masked by using a huge air to water intercooler.

[@j.robertvillarreal5926]

Let me know when you boost a Northstar Caddy engine.

[@BAMFCarDude]

Not related to the challenge, but I'd really like to see the twin turbos from a LF4 on the 3800.

[@timbrown215]

Awesome challenge been wanting see this !! Seems like if there is a superior turbo that the company would have marketed it. And have proof

[@pmd7771969]

Gale banks can do it. Rich. Bloodviking

[@hoost3056]

Call Forced Performance.....dude knows how to spec a turbo

[@rogergm92]

Hope big buck turbo manufacturers send you some turbos. I think power will be the same at this 15psi. The only differences would be response rates and efficiency on the big bang.

[@williamrobb638]

I think the vs racing 75mm billet wheel would be a Little better more efficient for that engine setup

[@michaelblacktree]

I think this test would be more meaningful if you could log exhaust backpressure and intake air temperature BEFORE the intercooler. Those data should give you an idea how efficient the turbo is.

[@richardholdener1727]

both of those will be logged

[@michaelblacktree]

excellent! 👍

[@jcadlols]

The thing I think could be a bit of an oversight is that a big water to air cooler connected to the dyno water is essentially infinite cooling. A less efficient turbo isn’t really going to be penalised for producing extra heat at a given boost level.

[@projectgattago]

I am pretty sure the GT45 came from the old Master Power GT45 turbo, not the Garrett.

[@TheRoyal769sr]

60-1 lol

[@joequixotic3039]

The charge cooler is going to minimize differences and with the dyno water it's not really representative of the reality of a turbo motor in a car. A better test is designed to maximize or highlight differences. So if you ditch the intercooler, you would see many larger turbos that can create the same boost level with less back pressure and lower charge temperatures at (and above) the power peak. The greater charge density and lower back pressure should show up in power but if ignition timing can be increased, that's another potential power increase.

[@richardholdener1727]

we will take charge temps before the cooler-the ambient dyno water is definitely representative of the street (having run an ATW for years)

[@senseimarvin454]

A properly controlled VGT should beat everything.

[@markburkey6371]

I could see a turbo making power earlier, but it'll probably be the same output at max boost... Fun video!

[@sohctony]

Hey Richard what was the manifold pressure during the na pull?

[@aftastosk6016]

It's easy to test something more powerful at the same psi, the difficult part is to combine this with better response. Also, 15 psi is a fairly low boost and expensive turbochargers (G series, EFR series, PTE Gen 2, Xona etc) make a real difference at higher boost levels.

[@corbinschad1]

Very true. Like comparing 3/8 ratchets strength by snapping off 1/4" bolts. Lol

[@aaronhall7740]

Xona would be great to see!

[@livingintheLight.]

I have no doubt that Richard and the dyno will tell the story

[@richardholdener1727]

I think I covered that point in the video-but thanks for reminding everyone

[@aftastosk6016]

@@richardholdener1727 cheers

[@fredriksteen9765]

Love the idea of this test, best topic in a very long time. Will be so fun to watch, hopefully you can gathering some expensive turbos in varus size and test them. Emap sensor would be a good optional in the test

[@fusiondensity3287]

The ball earth is funny

[@rickynelson3222]

The gt 45 is that same as a t3/t4

[@richardholdener1727]

no-the gt45 is a t4

[@ZEPRATGERNODT]

I guess it's safe to assume the GT45 is too big for a Ford 1.6L

[@tomcelica]

Not a 1.6 liter running 12k+ rpm.

[@brudevold62]

Not if you're attempting compound boost...

[@ZEPRATGERNODT]

@@tomcelica It’s a 72 Pinto Block. I wanted to slightly boost it before I throw an old school 302 in the car.

[@michaelblacktree]

On that engine, the GT45 will need a helper (i.e. compound). Otherwise, it might not "wake up" until the engine is close to redline.

[@tomcelica]

@@ZEPRATGERNODT gt30 would be a better choice unless your trying to make 600+ hp

[@Xxjoker21xX]

I am willing to bet the Length of the Y pipe sides will put both on different power peaks just like intake will the shorter side better power on top end and longer side better on bottom.. you need to test it with equal manifold pipe lengths instead of the crossover deal from the factory see if there is a difference with both long or short equal not the factory miss matched y !

[@richardholdener1727]

that has no effect on the power curve

[@tomcelica]

From what you have taught us, back pressure could rob a few hp.

[@myoneblackfriend3151]

This is a really great idea, Richard. I encourage more of these challenges. There are a lot of brilliant innovators out there and hopefully the best is yet to come and we'll see the best right here.