The 1955 Holy Week Controversy with Gregory DiPippo

[@johncollorafi257]

Di Pippo is the sort of man who could forget more about liturgical history than most folks will learn. Don't know what he'll say here, but his erudition is astounding.

[@mosesking2923]

He’s an armchair philosopher who is out of touch with the laity. If he actually believes that 9 blessings for palms instead of one is what the church needs, he is out of touch with the average lay person.

[@O_Rei]

@@mosesking2923There weren’t “9 blessings”: there was 1 consecration*. Who on Earth named you spokesman “for the laity”? You do realise you’re helping his point about low expectations towards the laity and laziness to catechise drove forward the “reforms”, right?

[@lmtt123]

He is an arrogant academic bully without any charity or spiritual experience.

[@thecatholicman]

Great talk guys.

[@Mrs_Homemaker]

Even the Anglicans often keep tenebrae. 😅 My husband was raised in that denomination and it was his favorite service.

[@DrJonathanGemmill]

Great show guys 🔥 - highly interesting! Thank you and God bless 🙏⛪⚓🏥.

[@Southernromanist]

Timothy, can you post links or cites to the music you play before the episode begins? I’d love to access it

[@Marge137]

Once I experienced Holy Week at St Mary of Norwalk in CT, I cannot fathom ever celebrating the liturgies of Holy Week without the 1955 liturgies. Any prelate who tries to quash it should be ignored.

[@exotericidymnic3530]

I can say my deacons would be very grateful if they restored the reed, this year the deacon really struggled to hold up the candle the whole time.

[@duromusabc]

I like the pre 55 Tenebrae in the Monastic Diurnal by Lancelot Andrewes Press

[@timfronimos459]

Where is the Louis Taffari link?

[@lmtt123]

Two schismatics who follow their own invented Church

[@O_Rei]

Gregory DiPippo is a gift to the Church.

[@lmtt123]

His own Church not the Catholic Church

[@O_Rei]

@@lmtt123 “His own church”? Gregory DiPippo is MC at his local, Diocesan-approved TLM parish (which has a great relationship with their local Bishop), was a licensed tour guide at the Vatican during his time in Rome (a job for which you have to be a Catholic) and is raising multiple, God-fearing children, all of whom receive the sacraments in rites carried out with the full approval of the local Bishop. I suggest you go to confession and seek sacramental absolution for your slanderous comment.

[@nicholasholiday941]

For the record, I am no fan of the Novus Ordo as it is currently celebrated. The music is awful and much of what changed was replaced with liturgy that in my view was not an improvement. I also don't like the use of the vernacular as a general practice. But the glorification of all things past is nothing less than liturgical fetishism. DiPippo"s smug, snotty air of undue authority is off putting to anybody who isn't fishing for a justification of the position they already hold. I don't know how old he is, but let me describe what I saw until I was in my middle teens: Low masses in which a minority of congregants followed the mass in their missals, said by priests who often appeared distracted, and said the mass in a rushed, not particularly reverent manner. Our pastor recited almost the entire mass in the tone reserved for the Canon. For the longest time I thought "oremus" was pronounced "oremu" due to his barely audible voice. Most people appeared distracted or bored with the exception of some older people who said their rosary. Some of the laity opined that the earliest Masses were the best because they they were the shortest. All but one of Sunday Masses and Holy Days were always well attended (even in our church which had eight Masses on Sunday counting Masses in the downstairs chapel). During Holy Week, except for Palm Sunday, the church was half empty even though for the Triduum there was only one service. The same was true of the 11 O'clock Mass on Sunday. The reason I was told by adults? It was too long. So much for tradition. The TLM that one attends today is very different from the Masses in the "good old days." The liturgy most certainly needed reform and current liturgical abuses do not prove to the contrary.

[@nicholasholiday941]

Omission: the line re the Triduum should have included the qualifier "on that day."

[@mosesking2923]

Christ tells us to judge by fruits, not intentions. The problem with Mr. Dipippo is that he tries to pick and chose which reforms to accept. The intentions of Pius X are irrelevant. The reality is that you have an ultramontanist top-down imposition of liturgical change. In that case, Pius X is not much different than Paul VI. In fact, some traditions (psalm 148-150) are older than the Mass itself. Intentions don’t matter. Fruits matter.

[@robertcarlin4876]

…Did you watch the video?

[@mosesking2923]

@@robertcarlin4876 yep, the entire video. What’s your argument?

[@IteDomumCatholicam]

"Intentions don't matter." "The intentions of____are irrelevant." Said no one intelligent - ever. Intentions aren't the sum total of all things, but they matter and are relevant in all human acts. Ask St. Thomas. To say that one picks and chooses is, well, part of life - but based on which principles did the person pick and choose? That's the big question. Finally, to say that the tradition of Ps 148-150 is "older than the Mass itself" is odd: of course the Psalter is older, and the collection as a threesome in the Jewish prayer life is older, but the Mass was instituted by Our Lord before any Christian Divine Office was offered to the clergy or faithful. So, let's compare like with like, eh?

[@mosesking2923]

@@IteDomumCatholicam Christ says to judge the fruit, not intentions. Intentions are totally irrelevant. I don’t care if Pius X was naive, a modernist, or otherwise ignorant. The reality is that Pius X’s changes to the entire breviary are a disastrous change to tradition, equally as bad as Paul VI’s reform of the Mass. Mr. Dipippo simply wants to give Pius X a free pass because of personal devotion. The traditions of the breviary are far more ancient than Renaissance era introductions into the Mass (the prayers at the foot of the altar or Last Gospel).

[@IteDomumCatholicam]

@@mosesking2923 Either you didn't listen to Mr. DiPippo, you have a weak memory, or you're maliciously accusing him of something he didn't say or claim: he didn't give St. Pius X any pass, here or on NLM: he just judges apples as apples, etc. You seem so focused on Ps. 148-150 that you forget the main point: the ferial psalms (outside Compline, obviously) were practically omitted throughout the year - before 20th century canonizations! That was a serious problem for the Office's integrity. Any solution presaged an omission of something - or a structural change. And, you betray an ignorance of liturgical history: "Renaissance era" introductions? When is the "Renaissance" - for you? When did the Introibo and Last Gospel come in? If they're not integral to the Mass, are you now going to qualify you're "older than the Mass" assertion?

[@buckan8r999]

With this guys logic would seem to say that we should go back to saying mass in an upper room and forego the high altars since someone willed the high altar. Jesus never said the first mass using a high altar then right? Ludicrous

[@spraffman]

I think you misunderstood his point.

[@O_Rei]

Are you functionally illiterate or something? He EXPLICITLY*, in this very video, rejected the idea that aspects of the liturgy will themselves into existence and stressed that they were all willed* by someone, and we should judge them on their merits. The ridiculous strawman you’re painting could fit antiquarianism*, not Traditionalism. Go to bed.

[@sciencesaves]

how boring is every bit of this?