The 2017 NBA MVP was given to the wrong player for the dumbest reason imaginable

[@JoshuaEfron]

"It was the ultimate double standard.". Okay, but was it the ultimate TRIPLE-double standard?"

[@pranavmanie1479]

this comment is the winner

[@Porthos240]

You win 🫡🫡🫡💯💯

[@MindfulAttraction2.0]

No because it was inflated. He stole rebounds and had the highest usage rate in history. The guy was going to force that triple double one way or another and it's not that other guy's can't. It's just that other guys don't have that level of narcissism and lack of self-awareness to dominate the ball so much without a care of what your teammates think

[@alonsomendoza9281]

you failed to consider the fact that I like Westbrook more so he was more deserving of the award

[@CoachOutah]

@@alonsomendoza9281 I wish more Russ fans would just come out and admit this. Instead I have to see constant tweets and TikTok comments calling him a top 3 PG of all time

[@user-bp1pu]

@@alonsomendoza9281 unironically what the voters thought. Harden fit the mvp criteria better but the voters flipped on him.

[@drubizzy]

Rus won the MVP because he literally drug OKC into the playoffs all by himself in the final month. Narratives matter in the MVP race. It's not the "best stats award". Rus in 2016-17 was also WAY more fun to watch while Harden was basically destroying NBA watchability.

[@factor.8795]

@@drubizzyit’s most valuable- harden was most valuable

[@drubizzy]

@@factor.8795 You should take a look at the +/- for when they were/were not on the court for either of their teams and get back to me. L take.

[@MetalheadSapling]

Secret Base: 17 Minutes of statistical analysis and reasoned argumentation Me, An Intellectual: But Harden is more annoying than Westbrook.

[@SimuLord]

Harden broke the record for turnovers in a season and set an unbreakable mark for uncalled travels.

[@CrazyxEnigma]

I guess people don't care anymore that Harden was at the time the worst foul baiter the league had ever seen. Players literally had to put their hands behind their backs to guard him it was insane what the refs allowed him to get away with. Now that he's older and on his way out people aren't angry watching him suck the fun out of basketball anymore they feel bad many fans and media people disliked him during his peak.

[@MetalheadSapling]

The Harden quadruple-double, never forget

[@UeProductionz]

@@CrazyxEnigma I would consider Embiid worse than Harden with the foul baiting. Much of Harden's fouls came from the rip through which honestly is just capitalizing on undisciplined defense if you ask me. Would you consider someone who's a hack/reaching all the time a good defender? Probably not. So I didn't care that Harden was baiting fouls off of these undisciplined defenders.

[@JammerAma]

Me, A Blazers fan who watched Russ rock the baby to Dame multiple times: Now hang on a minute there

[@ejmartino3376]

In my opinion, the real gap between the two that season exists in the narrative. Harden had an unbelievable, yet, “just another” season, whereas Westbrook was carrying his team after being abandoned by the “cowardly snake” Durant. I’m not saying this is how it should be, or that I agree, but voters are humans who are susceptible to narratives and stories. The triple double line was an attempt to numerically justify awarding Westbrook’s season story.

[@-piras]

exactly

[@ajanalysis7742]

your acting like Harden's sidekicks weren't just eric gordon and clint capela

[@xavierb9061]

Kd left because offense sucked around him..russ took those guys..mvp

[@mydood9675]

@@ajanalysis7742 in 2016 Trevor Ariza, Eric Gordon (won 2016-17 6MOY), Clint Capela, Patrick Beverly (2016-17 top 10 for DPOY), Lou Williams (2016-17 top 3 for 6MOY), Montrezl Harrell, Nene was not a roster of scrubs lmao. That was a really good team. Obviously not like the 5x allstar warriors or anything, but those were really good roleplayers man.

[@mydood9675]

Westbrook also literally won the scoring title and had less turnovers per game than Harden while recording 2.6 more rpg. It wasn't ONLY the media storylines. He had a legitimate case even if you want to get super stat junky objective about it

[@alexwilson7815]

If we are talking added value to a team, it is worth noting that per 100 possessions the Rockets were outscoring their opponents by 3.5 when Harden was on the bench, The thunder were being outscored by opponents by 9.2 when Westbrook was on the bench

[@alexwilson7815]

Thunder were 12.5pts per 100 possessions better with Westbrook on than off Harden made his team 2.4 pts per 100 possessions better

[@maartenvz]

@@alexwilson7815 Exactly, this video is mostly looking at raw numbers (total rebounds, assists etc) and has completely ignored advanced stats (on/off, clutch scoring), which clearly show Westbrook was deserving.

[@ArthPedro]

@@alexwilson7815 because he had a higher USG% lmao, Harden had a 34% USG, Westbrook 41%, despite that huge gap, Harden still had a better WS

[@chrisdwellingham5320]

Win shares is a terrible statistic that assumes Harden is equally as good on defense as the rest of his roster. The 2017 playoffs showed Russ was better when he vastly outplayed Harden head to head and his team gave up 4 straight double digit leads with Westbrook on the bench

[@GXprogamer]

@@chrisdwellingham5320 dawg....Russ USG% in the playoffs vs Houston was literally 46% while Hardens was 38%.... like stop

[@CrazyxEnigma]

As I remember the race was basically neck and neck until the last month or two of the season where Westbrook had multiple instances of willing his team to victory via clutch plays and outplayed Harden in their final matchup. That combined with the KD abandoned him narrative, the triple double record and the media's own dislike of Harden(everyone seems to ignore these days that Harden being the number one foul baiter made him extremely disliked fair or not the media not liking a player always contributed look at Barkley in 90 and Kobe in 06 as other examples)is why Westbrook won.

[@Benjiizus]

I remember watching him drag that supporting cast to the playoffs. When he hit that game winner in the game he broke the record, I literally ran around my house

[@NBAThrowbackVideos]

m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/m6XElGeoZ5iXq6s Outplayed harden by losing in a blow out.

[@Wicha329]

Thank you! It wasn’t about stats. Westbrook WAS the most valuable player to his team in the NBA, he was the clutchest player in the league, and he dragged his team to the playoffs by himself after KD left. That’s all you have to say to counter this 17 minute long Harden propaganda.

[@gavinyeet5821]

Yeah, I remember Durant leaving the Thunder being a very significant point in the discussion. Without Westbrook that season the Thunder were probably contending for a lottery pick in the draft instead of a playoff spot. I'd still probably pick Kawhi though.

[@maartenvz]

@@Wicha329 Clutch scoring is a stat, and one that Westbrook dominated that year. He scored by far the most clutch points but also had an incredible +2.2 net rating in the clutch, whereas Harden was -0.8...

[@mattcurrie1106]

He cherry picked per game stats that worked against Westbrook and used total stats when it was in favor of harden lol

[@alexrubenstein3856]

please, do elaborate. i showed per game and total for both. i cherry-picked 11 and 8 for harden to make a point that that's no less valuable than cherry-picking 10 and 10 for westbrook

[@trevonriley5383]

This man doesn't like round numbers

[@Jack-bg2li]

If you're gonna use advanced stats to make your argument here, Westbrook led the league in VORP and BPM by a pretty wide margin over Harden. Feels pretty disingenuous to leave out.

[@alexrubenstein3876]

vorp had otto porter above paul george and klay thompson and had mason plumlee and tobias harris above thompson and jrue holiday. it had tyler johnson above lamarcus aldridge bpm had danny green above klay thompson and had kyle lowry and mike conley above anthony davis and had otto porter above paul george think i'm feeling ok about leaving 'em out

[@taptiotrevizo9415]

Those stats are offensive load based. Russel had a 74% offensive load. Those stats aren't gagging impact

[@hiitsmeyou]

Saying “VORP and BPM” shows you don’t even know what these stats are. They are the same stat but one is rate and the other is cumulative. They also aren’t very good “advanced” stats since they’re based solely on box score and don’t input lineup data or tracking

[@JazzYachtrocker]

@@taptiotrevizo9415 your mom is gagging tho

[@dakotasmith9878]

​@@alexrubenstein3876 How are you downplaying VORP because of OPJ being above PG and Klay when he was also above them in the "significant" categories (from the video and comments from SB) like EFG% and TS% that year also? You okay with leaving those stats out too or what are we gonna cherry pick next?

[@AAdams-ke4is]

This is actually just 17 minutes of raw hater behavior lol. Without Westbrook, the Thunder grade out as a glorifies G-League team, and played like a top 5 offense with him. The team's +/- disparity was insane. Westbrook's PER was insane. His quantifiable clutch usage, FG%, AST/TO, and every other metric was quite high. Westbrook WAS the Thunder. He was the only engine keeping them not only good, but he was the engine that made that an NBA team. We've GOT to stop letting folks engage in revisionist history and cherry pick means of looking back at eras.

[@AAdams-ke4is]

Even if we simplify: Westbrook had one of the biggest +/- differentials of all time and one of the highest usage rates of all time. That is the raw definition of "valuable."

[@kimkatyaharley]

alex provides the reasoning and the, y’know, sources, that the reason why 16-17 russ won the MVP was probably because of his Triple-Double average. all the stats you provided (including AST/TO for some reasons) are out of context. Westbrook BEING the OKC Thunder (still the sonics in my heart) doesn’t mean shit unless he WAS the Thunder to an extent beyond Harden BEING the Rockets. also, as for Cherrypicking Stats, none of the stats Rubenstein uses are particularly, i don’t know, unusual? there were no weird splits here. all he does is present the value case; harden had a better overall season than westbrook. harden was a better shooter, had more assists and only a tocuh fewer rebounds than Russ. in the end, basketball is a game about putting the ball in the basket, and harden did that a touch better than westbrook. if you want to hate harden for vibes reasons, that’s fine. but you don’t really have a case here.

[@Jakedominguez10]

Everything you just said can be applied to Harden, but he won more games and was more efficient

[@ps182008]

It's been 7 years and basketball ppl are still fighting each other over this mvp

[@asaptrav]

narrative is an important part of the award you didn’t really touch on. Russ nearly single handily willed his team to the playoffs (albeit a first round exit) less than a year after KD left for the greatest team of all time. I’d argue if this race happened a year or two later it would’ve been a different story

[@michaelijeh627]

Exactly. His numbers were more than good enough, so the narrative carried the day. For something like the MVP, the narrative is more important than the numbers

[@fredlarson2954]

It's a completely manufactured narrative. The actual narrative before the season represented the opposite. The Thunder had the 7th best odds to win the finals in the preseason. Houston had the 18th best odds. The Rockets were viewed as a worse team by W/L lines in the preseason as well. Harden led the Rockets to such a great season, it was completely forgotten how average they were expected to be.

[@tol5516]

@@fredlarson2954 I remember when they got D'Antoni I told my friends that he will put Harden to play point guard and he will go Steve Nash on everybody

[@SimuLord]

@@tol5516 D'Antoni was the perfect coach for Harden's game. Unfortunately, D'Antoni's fatal flaw was that he'd gas his starters by having them play 35-40 minutes a game in the regular season and that's how "missed 27 straight shots in an elimination game in the playoffs" happens. The Marty Schottenheimer of basketball.

[@andrewdorie]

That Warriors team was not close to being the best team of all time. I’d take the 86 Celtics, 88 Lakers, late 80’s BB Pistons, any 90’s Bulls teams, Shaq & Penny (+ Horace Grant) Magic and the mid 90’s Rockets who beat them, Phil Jackson Lakers teams, and even the 72 Lakers and 71 Bucks. I’d confidently put money on any of these teams in a 7 game series. That Warriors team depended way too heavily on talent, which is why they broke up so quickly. And they’d have absolutely no answers for a HOF level 5 like Shaq or Kareem.

[@mauricegarner3]

refusing to call the Thunder by name is a true commitment to pettiness. "Westbrook's organization" lmao Westbrook got MVP off his insane final week of the season, with signature last second game winners to secure his team's playoff seeding. coming into the season, Westbrook and the Thunder et al got sympathy for losing two MVP caliber players back to back, and his MVP campaign stood in stark contrast to the superteam in Golden State. yeah he stat padded and yeah his teammates let him grab rebounds, but there was likely no way someone else would've gotten the award even though LeBron was clearly still the best player in the league at the time, and Durant and Curry were arguably more intrinsically valuable individually speaking. narratives are what drive the MVP discussion at the end of the day.

[@SimuLord]

As a Seattle resident, I approve.

[@vibechecktsundere4912]

Nah as a thunder fan I’d say most of the fan base was okay with what he did. Most of that 2017 squad was either super young and underdeveloped or is out of the league now. His reliable “costar” was Steven Adams. It’s not really stat padding when that roster was genuinely terrible. Look at the on/off metric in the 2017 playoffs vs the Rockets. They marginally won the Westbrook minutes and were a horrific -55 in non Westbrook minutes. That’s inexcusable even for a team that was built around him. Even the rebounds thing I don’t get the criticism on. It was a coaching decision primarily since you wanted to initiate fast break offense with Westbrook off a board than Steven Adams, so it made sense for Adams to box out his guy and let Westbrook begin an offensive possession as soon as possible. Westbrook averaging a triple double over a season was a unique mix of Westbrook’s unique skillset relative to the point guard position and having a bad enough roster to have a green light.

[@saintfredoo]

you cooked lol they won’t respond

[@DemetriosHilton]

@@mauricegarner3 no actually that's a solid point y'all made as a Westbrook hater myself you're right.

[@RocksSocks-k2m]

Just because narrative is a part of how the voters make their MVP pick doesn’t mean it should be how everyone does. The point of this video was that removing the narrative surrounding Westbrook’s run his MVP candidacy is much weaker for that season.

[@nersh46137]

He was celebrated for achieving a feat to a completely arbitrary level. You just described… sport? 🤔

[@madisonbordenave4869]

This is maybe the worst argument for harden I’ve ever heard. The argument for Westbrook is pretty simple. He was far more valuable to his team than harden was while having grater impact on winning games Han harden. Harden’s on/off was +3.3. Westbrook’s was +62.5. His team was 22 points/possession better when he was on the floor and their defensive rating was around 38 point/possession better as well. Harden’s team was 7.7 points/possession better when he was on the court

[@TyBeTroLLing]

Harden carries to west finals. Westbrook was in Cancun

[@mydood9675]

@@TyBeTroLLing Regular season award

[@TJ-ik9on]

yep, valuable.

[@guidovalli7823]

​@@TyBeTroLLing Harden chocked against a Kawhi-less Spurs, and was blocked by Manu to get bounced in the 2nd round.

[@madisonbordenave4869]

@@TyBeTroLLing two vastly different rosters and offensive philosophies guided those teams. D’antoni had those rockets playing 2021 basketball in 2017 of course they were racking up wins. Westbrooks roster lacked shooting, spacing, and any other advantage creators. Oladipo and sabonis hadn’t come into their own yet

[@pierrenc]

Russell Westbrook, off of losing the 2nd or 3rd best itw at the time, led a team in a tough west to 45 wins BY HIMSELF while averaging a triple double. What are we talking abt here? U can say Harden deserved it but to say for the “dumbest reason possible” is crazy

[@SecretBaseSBN]

the emphasis on round numbers is the dumbest reason imaginable when not just westbrook but both guys had an assist/rebound combo not seen since oscar

[@maartenvz]

@@SecretBaseSBN Why didn't you include clutch scoring and on/off? Westbrook was far ahead of Harden in both categories (almost double in clutch scoring with a great +2.2 net rating in the clutch, while Harden was -0.8. Meanwhile on/off was +12.5/100 for Westbrook and +2.4/100 for Harden)...

[@reezySZN]

@@maartenvzmaybe because all that clutch scoring didn’t translate to wins

[@chrisdwellingham5320]

​@@SecretBaseSBNwhy didn't you mention James Harden's team had the best bench in the league and Westbrook had the worst?

[@chriswood1895]

@@SecretBaseSBNthe THUNDER won at a significantly higher rate when Russell Westbrook achieved those “round numbers”. Idk sounds pretty valuable to me

[@DylanisWavy]

Oh, you mean when he dragged a team that featured 8 players that would be out of the league within the next 2 seasons (3, of which were out the following season) to damn near 50 wins in the West? The same team that ranked last in 3P%? The same team that just lost arguably the current second best player in the game and received nothing in return? And, by Westbrook, you’re referring to the player who netted 7 game-tying or go-ahead shots in the final 10 seconds, led the league in clutch points (6.2 on 57% TS), 4th quarter points (10 on 57.4% TS), and points per game in general? The same player who broke the unbreakable triple-double record and dropped 50 points (scoring 18 of our final 21), knocked Denver out of the Playoffs picture, and launched a 35-foot buzzer-beating 3 to cap it off all in the same game? Or are we talking about two different teams and 2017 advanced-statistic-breaking players? That MVP was more than deserved, but it doesn’t matter what either of us think about its validity because the trophy’s sitting in his house right now.

[@SecretBaseSBN]

do you not think i can cherry-pick any big harden games too? and i talked extensively about scoring proficiency, but i also included data from the first 47 minutes and 50 seconds if thats ok since basketball games are more than 10 seconds long

[@DylanisWavy]

@@SecretBaseSBN You can, but I’ve already unsubscribed, so I won’t see it.

[@crapin22]

you fr cooked with this one

[@catman-du8927]

​@@SecretBaseSBN Aren't clutch/4th quarter performance an important part of who is a better player? Sure, the whole game counts but someone being better when there isn't time to make up for mistakes is an important stat.

[@epicmarschmallow5049]

Most intelligent Westbrick fan:

[@jordanwhattt233]

“No rational reasoning for Westbrook to be mvp” is an insane statement to take. 🤣

[@SecretBaseSBN]

cant be the assist/rebound combo, cant be scoring proficiency, cant be winning, and it cant be blemishes of harden's game, because they also apply to westbrook. so whats the rational reasoning?

[@Mrballerize]

​@SecretBaseSBN "Can't be scoring proficiency". He won the revered scoring title, which also contributed to him winning MVP; in addition to dragging a lottery team to the playoffs lol.

[@laurinnn]

​@@MrballerizeHouston literally had a preseason O/U of 41.5 wins, OKC's was at 45.5 lmfao

[@dfp_01]

​@@SecretBaseSBNThe rational reasoning is that, as many others have pointed out, the Thunder benefited monumentally more from having Westbrook on the floor than the Rockets did from having Harden. MVP voters and the journalists reporting on the season might have stuck with narrative-peddling because that's their job, but it's ridiculous to say Harden was far and away the best player on the league and Westbrook was entirely undeserving.

[@RANDOMZBOSSMAN1]

@@laurinnnYup funny how people forget this honestly Kawhi should have won the MVP the year but Harden had a better season than Russ

[@UncleCheekClappa]

This aint it, chief.

[@Squesus]

Steven Adams was terrified to get a defensive rebound that whole season because Russ would yell at him 🤣

[@user-bp1pu]

@@Squesus russ statpadded rebounds and got an mvp because of it. Harden fit the traditional criteria way more. Love westbrook too, but harden got screwed and nba voters should be ashamed.

[@mentazmic]

Steven Adams would break him in half like a match. He did it out of pure selflessness

[@lunatik383]

Not really lol. Russ' defensive rebounding often directly led to pseudo fastbreak points. It was a part of their scheme.

[@user-bp1pu]

@lunatik383 yes and that scheme inflated his rebound numbers. He didnt get contested rebounds. Those arent points in westbrooks favor. Its cool, but using that to give westbrook points over harden is crazy.

[@vincewilson8969]

@@user-bp1puhow he stat pad when his highest rebound average was in Washington. Goofy

[@MilesBrownRoyalty]

Oddly that season was the most rebounds per game Steven Adam's ever had at that point

[@bktoogoated]

Notice how they don’t talk about that 🤔

[@dionicio24]

Secret Base first miss 💔 you hate to see it.

[@goat-s9m]

cry more

[@dimes3634]

Y'all are just irrational lol

[@xedyir_oZZ]

@@dimes3634 nah this vid is irrational, its one thing to say you think harden deserved the award, there's a reason why the voting was so close in the end but to say russ was ''completely underserving'' of the award and using stats to prove that point WHILE KNOWINLY ignoring stats that prop up russ is just asinine

[@yoofij4724]

​@xedyir_oZZ literally bro

[@jaredbowie7193]

This is the biggest L secret base has ever posted. Go back to that season, it wasn't a close vote for a reason...

[@Nakapeesh]

This shoulda stayed in the groupchat

[@JakeSouza]

This take is hot garbage. Writing off what Russ accomplished when no one but Oscar has done it in 60 years…why do we not hear about how many free throws Harden took per game? Russ carried a terrible supporting cast to the playoffs in the loaded west. History will crush this take much like you are cobbling together a weak argument for Harden…who HIGHLY benefited from officiating rules at the time.

[@SecretBaseSBN]

1. so westbrook posted an assist/combo that no one else but oscar had, and harden posted an assist/rebound combo that no one else but oscar had. but only westbrook's should be revered? interesting 2. did westbrook take way fewer free throws per game than harden? or did he take 0.5 fewer free throws per game than harden? i forget 3. are you of the belief that a squad led by eric gordon and clint capela would've won 55 games and earned a top-3 seed in a loaded west?

[@JakeSouza]

The fact Harden was #2 in MVP voting means he was given props and his season was revered. He just didn’t win the MVP. Yes, Harden was a better scorer. But Westbrook broke a barrier. It’s like saying Roger Banister being the 1st person to run a sub 4min mile is not impressive because others had ran it in 4 min 2 seconds. The TRIPLE DOUBLE was a barrier that Westbrook broke. And to devalue that now when No one else has done it is short sided.

[@SecretBaseSBN]

again, harden reached an assist/rebound barrier that was just as historically unique and impactful. so considering how vast harden's advantages were elsewhere, that's a helluva lot of emphasis to place on the almighty round number, which is irrational

[@JakeSouza]

Rarely is there a season where there can’t be a debate over the MVP. For example Barkley over Jordan in 93 or Embid in 23 over Joker or Joker over SGA in 24… etc But of all the seasons to make an argument over the wrong guy getting it, the Westbrook does not square up. If the round numbers don’t matter..then why has no other player but Westbrook found a way to do it? Considering he had 4 triple double seasons in 5 years with the one MVP, it’s not a case of over valuing round numbers. Is a case a valuing historical numbers. YES, both had historical numbers. But the triple double carried more weight in that one year.

[@SecretBaseSBN]

we agree that the triple-double clearly carried more weight. what i'm saying is that that being the case when 11 and 8 was just as historically unique and impactful is asinine

[@RaphaelRodriguez737]

HE LED THE LEAGUE IN GAME WINNERS, CLUTCH POINTS, outside of the triple doubles where his team won a HUGE majority of those games. lets stop this nonsense. he deserved it that season

[@alexrubenstein3876]

lol there appears to be this belief that harden's team didnt also have a good record when he had good numbers, and i dont understand the genesis of that belief also any game-winner hit by westbrook is properly and accurately reflected in their win total of 47, which is still a much smaller number than 55. applying extra weight to a game-winner for one player is tantamount to an indictment against the other who perhaps had far superior efficiency earlier in the game which rendered a game-winner not necessary...regardless of the number of game-winners hit or not hit by harden, i'd rather have a player lead me to 55 wins with 0 game-winners than 47 wins with 47 game-winners; not to mention harden stacking up statistically against westbrook the way he did

[@unclequagsire3812]

MVP just isn't usually for people that drag a team to a mid seed. I haven't seen a reason why he deserved it over Kawhi.

[@33leel33]

James Harden glazing is real

[@3411Chad]

So is the James Harden hating. Not a fan at all, but he was amazing that season; it clearly should have been him or Leonard winning that MVP.

[@goat-s9m]

Cry more

[@deeshotcha2250]

@@3411Chad triple double 😭

[@RANDOMZBOSSMAN1]

@@3411Chadyup Kawhi was my MVP that year but Harden basically had Russ season that year but simply better

[@CadChamberlain]

By my own research, 2017 Russell Westbrook is the only player in the history of the sport to contribute to more than HALF of all points his team scored. He accounted for 50.841% of all Thunder points in the 2016-2017 season. Harden accounted for 47.949% of all Rockets points, which is still one of the highest percentages in the history of the sport, but significantly less than Westbrook.

[@CadChamberlain]

For more context, Wilt Chamberlain's 50 PPG season sits at around 45%. 17-18 LeBron's 45% is the highest of his career.

[@smn2300]

Westbrook's record when he had a triple double that season was 33-9, a 79% winning percentage. That is the "rationale" reason you're struggling to find that justifys Westbrooks worthiness of the award

[@SecretBaseSBN]

lol harden's team also had good records when he posted good numbers, this is not unique to westbrook

[@hiitsmeyou]

Westbrook most often missed his triple double by way of getting too few assists. His team won when his team hit shots and thus gave him assists. Its not all that remarkable to say a team fared better when their point guard had a lot of assists

[@churdle92]

@@SecretBaseSBNwhat’s the harden/westbrook comparison on the specific stat provided here

[@kingdinodragonite3470]

​@@SecretBaseSBN Harden has a much worse on-off than Russ

[@LOKALZ808]

@@SecretBaseSBN well cuz your case is heavily based on Russ’s TD’s, acting as if his MVP was solely because of that, like it wasn’t meaningful, 33-9 is quite meaningful

[@assibeysteven4033]

I would counter with two things: 1) regardless of statistical analysis, the MVP has never actually always been an award about statistics and value alone. Sports are also about story and in 2017 the second best player in the world literally left his Robin with a poorly constructed team. That robin became Batman for a season. That Batman was an impressive Batman, and as such that Batman was given an award for it. On the other hand, you have Harden who, two years prior to this, was this close to winning the MVP, and probably should’ve won over Stephen Curry in 2015, but he whinged and whined and dribble the air out of the ball only to step back 4 feet before shooting a statistically improbable shot: ignoring every other teammate in the process. I am saying this to say, nobody liked Harden back then and few do now. Much in the same vein a lot of people don’t like Westbrook either , but back then people did. So just let it go. And two: you’re wrong, this MVP wasn’t won based on the most irrational reason. That would be Steve Nash’s 2006 MVP. I would argue every team deals with injuries, every team struggles with roster turnover. the marginal improvement in individual statistics, and the regression in both team, success, and seeding and overall team cohesiveness, meant that the award should have gone to someone else. Arguably Dirk Nowitzki. This MVP was so not about the triple double. It was about narrative., the triple double was the tangible feat that expressed what Westbrook could do in the absence of Kevin Durant. A quantifiable and measurable tome of the bias that was already held around the league that 1) Durant was weak and that OKC would be just fine if not much better off without him. Was that Narrative weak? Relative to other recent years? Arguably. I’d argue this was the strongest because these sports awards have and will never be voted for in a vacuum. if it were, phenomena like voter fatigue and LeBron’s snub for Defensive Player of the Year in 2013 could not and would not have happened

[@hirankodithuwakku2108]

Great explanation. Everybody was turning into Thunder games to see whether Westbrook will go for a Triple Double. If we had Fan Duel back then, people would go crazy over the spread. Official NBA accounts were counting down the Oscar's record. Finally, the same day he broke Oscar's record, Westbrook threw the Hail Mary for the game winner. Everybody was tuning in. The story matters.

[@Master-Debator]

Russ was passing to Andre Roberson, Kyle Singler, Semaj Christian, and Josh Huestis at the 3 pt line. They consistently ran 2 bigs on the floor, with Adams, Kanter, Collison, or Sabonis at least 2 would share the court limiting the spacing. Additionally, the Thunder even tried spacing Domas around the arc and using him like Bosh in Miami. This team was garbage, and Russ 1000000% deserved the MVP for elevating that terrible team. Big L, secret base

[@fortynights1513]

Running two bigs on the court? If teams do that now, I’d take it they are running a more defensive set.

[@CoachOutah]

@@Master-Debator I remember how bad the thunder’s spacing was that year. But I also remember that maybe if Westbrook could shoot like the vast majority of PG’s in the league, they wouldn’t have had as big of a spacing problem.

[@Master-Debator]

@ as an OKC fan, a typical starting lineup that year was Russ, Oladipo, Roberson, Sabonis, and Adams. Decent on defense, atrocious for spacing. Watching Sabonis look lost as one of the primary spacers was brutal, and I’m just happy he got traded so he could flourish

[@Master-Debator]

@ agreed, his shooting percentage is his ultimate negative attribute. However, that year I think he shot like 34% from 3, not great but better than his later years. I fully embraced Russ shooting a thousand times a game that year because the other shooters were SO BAD they couldn’t even hit the open ones. To his credit, I think Russ also hit like 5 game winners that year

[@SecretBaseSBN]

pretty telling if you're reduced to listing guys like singler and and huestis (31 minutes all season) who werent even rotational players in lieu of, say, fellow backcourt starter victor oladipo (who when he was elsewhere the very next season happened to immediately and, apparently magically, become an all-star). i can say harden was passing to kyle wiltjer and chinanu onuaku, but whats the point?

[@MrCocoaNinja]

This is what happens when you have people not watching the season as it happened and instead, they go back to fit their narrative. That MVP went where it belonged.

[@Master-Debator]

Yes exactly, stats are deceiving. Stat head revisionist history fails to highlight what actually happened

[@Benjiizus]

For real. That season was magical

[@vincentbeard6103]

My thoughts exactly, no way you were actually watching basketball in 2016-17 and genuinely feel this way

[@MB-vc7mh]

Thank you. What a loser who produced this video

[@superssoul]

Good string of arguments but you really lost me with the "most maliable superstar of the NBA" statement for KD. As the great Charles Barkley says... Cmon now

[@QuartzGolem]

Aint no way you just said that Harden was more useful on defense than anyone. This is the guy who just gives up on some plays and stands there watching it unfold. Edit: and the 2017-19 Rockets had a team perfectly built around him and a coach whos system was made for him

[@GXprogamer]

perfectly built yet barely healthy due to one guy + faced 4 hall of famers in the playoffs

[@matthewnichols2681]

when did skip bayless get a job at secret base

[@jaychow3]

Ok this is just a hate video on Russ winning MVP. That MVP could have gone to both. I had Russ over Harden cause this was peak foul baiting Harden. As well as Russ avg a triple double with a bad bad squad. Harden had everything on offense. Shooters rollers and of course himself

[@julianmachin]

@@jaychow3 “I had Russ over Harden cause this was peak foul baiting Harden” holy shit bro 💀

[@cowboytv7903]

Morey built those rockets teams like an absolute genius, this vid acting like harden had the same tier of team as westbrook is wild. Only thing it lacked was a "star teammate" which he got later with cp3. Otherwise the fit around harden was literally perfect

[@_jaded]

I’m sure this video won’t be controversial in the slightest bit

[@Jay7682]

😅😂

[@TheKillerRoo]

I'll give the video this, it's more entertaining than watching Harden foul bait for an extire NBA game.

[@2kbeast70]

17 minutes of nothing what a watse

[@qzsno]

let’s not rewrite history westbrook 100% deserved that mvp 11 of the 15 players were out of the nba the following years, nobody expected that team to win 20 games, and he made history. also 82% win rate when he has a triple double it’s not stat padding its hustle, we all did he had a bad snit with the lakers but trying to pretend he didn’t deserve mvp is pushing it

[@Scoots1994]

He hustled to pad his stats.

[@fortynights1513]

Didn’t realize that 11 of his teammates were out of the league the following season. Was it more older players who retired or younger players who didn’t catch on with another NBA team?

[@SimuLord]

@@Scoots1994 That's the story of Russ's whole career, and why he's got an iffy-at-best Hall of Fame case (yeah, I said it) and a case for the most overrated player in the history of the NBA (it's him or Allen Iverson, another stat sheet stuffer who couldn't shoot a lick and cost his team as many games as he won them.)

[@fortynights1513]

⁠@@SimuLordHow about John Stockton for most overrated?

[@Tripster60]

​@@fortynights1513 younger

[@AkielBlackette]

Based on your video. We should also grade world records based on the distance between the previous performance and the new performance in question. Which as I’m sure we can agree is stupid. Something has not been done in 40+ years. It deserves an award. No hyper analytics or narrative driven statistic can dispute that it has not been done and has yet to be repeated since.

[@SecretBaseSBN]

again, 11 and 8 ALSO hadnt been done since oscar (and hasnt been done since). BOTH had assist/rebound combos not seen since oscar, so it makes no sense to invoke that combo for westbrook when it also applies to harden

[@jtlusong]

@@SecretBaseSBN Russ averaged 22.9pts 11.1reb 10.7ast in 2018-2019. then he averaged 22.2pts 11.5reb 11.7ast in 2020-2021

[@xxREmex564]

The NBA is a highly narrative-driven league. While stats are important, the media circus that vilified Durant's departure from OKC made Westbrook the protagonist in the eyes of many. He was representative of the "good ole days" of the NBA where stars remained loyal to their teams, and had good enough stats to justify his nomination. Harden, in comparison, has always been a more aloof player whose style of basketball, while statistically efficient in the regular season, was polarizing to fans.

[@nextgencowboy]

Not even close to the worst MVP snub ever. Malone in 1998? He wasn't even the best player on his own team that year. Worse than Barkley getting snubbed in 1990? The reason there is due to him not being liked, and Harden wasnt liked either (Harden was taking 10 ft per game, and even after his down years averages more than Kobe, LeBron, etc. per game). Worse than Hakeem in the same year, he averaged almost 5 blocks a game, 14 rebounds and 25 points. Walton winning MVP in 78 playing 58 games. This one is close between two really great players. Just because a league shifts and triple doubles aren't what they once were doesnt mean context doesn't matter.

[@deathlessgamer]

My argument is going to involve zero numbers. The MVP, Most Valuable Player, should go to the player that provides their team with the most value, hence the name. I believe that Russell Westbrook provided more value to his team than James Harden did to his. With Russell Westbrook on the bench OKC didn't do to hot, whereas even without James Harden the Rockets were still rather good that year. It's not about who achieves round numbers versus who didn't, it's about who provided the most value.

[@adrianoparatore7368]

I agree with every point made in this video yet I still believe Westbrook deserve the MVP. You left off the most compelling argument for Westbrook, which is that he was on a far inferior team. If you take Harden Off of the Rockets, they would be an average team that might even make the playoffs. If you take Westbrook off of the Thunder, they would be at best a bottom 3 team in the league. I’m not a huge fan of either player so I don’t have a horse in the race either.

[@barleymepodcast2301]

This. If he were passing to even average shooters, he’d more than bridge the assist gap between him and Harden

[@ajanalysis7742]

@@adrianoparatore7368 if you take harden off that damn team they would definately not make the playoffs dude, you really think a Clint chapels and Eric Gordon duo would even be close to making the playoffs dude

[@duyanhng8430]

you r seriously telling me a team led by eric gordon and clint capela can make the playoff in the WEST, gtfoh

[@hiitsmeyou]

This is a terrible argument for MVP, assuming it’s even true. Adding wins to a bad team is much easier than adding wins to a mediocre to good team. Add Harden to the 11-12 bobcats and he’s worth 25+ wins. That doesn’t make him better than he would be adding 15 wins to a much better team

[@adrianoparatore7368]

@@duyanhng8430 the west was very top heavy that year…Portland made the playoffs at 41-41. The rockets may have missed but they also may have made it.…either way, I’m confident they would’ve been playing meaningful basket down the stretch. The same can’t be said for the Thunder. That underscores VALUE.

[@MrUnforgivablehope]

2017 also had the storyline about how Durant left OKC and Westbrook was the underdog on his revenge tour.

[@taptiotrevizo9415]

Why should that even matter? If the better player on courct they should win mvp

[@RANDOMZBOSSMAN1]

The most narrative driven MVP award ever like it was almost a sympathy award

[@giovannicouncil8622]

this dude hating on westbrook hard it was neck and neck but once russ hit that game winner to send the nuggets home and had a 50 pt triple double i knew it was over

[@kelhorton5977]

I mean, it’s the Most Valuable award. Without Russ, that Thunder team is a lottery pick

[@SecretBaseSBN]

just out of curiosity, how do you think a rockets squad led by eric gordon and clint capela would've done in that loaded west?

[@kelhorton5977]

@ They’d have been just as bad, if not worse lol. But I think a lot of people would take Gordon and Capela over a combination of Norris Cole, Andre Roberson, and Steven Adams though

[@SecretBaseSBN]

well if you acknowledge "they'd have been just as bad, if not worse," then surely you can understand why the whole "taking them off their team" argument isnt a rational thing to invoke as to why westbrook should've won it over harden lol

[@kelhorton5977]

@@SecretBaseSBN respect. All in all, Westbrook had the better individual regular season with the record, whereas Harden had the better season as far as his team went. And you can’t forget the narratives between the two as well.

[@JustinMcBride21x]

@ they would also have been bad, but the point of the award is to recognize the most valuable player and Westbrook was more valuable to the Thunder than Harden was to the Rockets. Without their respective superstars, both teams would’ve been bad, but the Thunder would’ve been worse. Much worse.

[@goldenstatewarriors9418]

A good conclusion with the worst possible argument supporting it. It would be much better if you just talked about Harden’s efficiency rather than pretending you didn’t understand why the number 10 is important in a base 10 counting system.

[@SecretBaseSBN]

so is 10/10/10 a better statline than 30/30/9? or does nuance matter?

[@MattMamba24]

I understand thinking Harden should win, but not being able to understand why Westbrook won is pretty disingenuous. The Westbrook Triple Double feat was like the slogan for his MVP campaign...a slogan gets people's attention, but there's more to his MVP season than just that. Sure, numbers and stats are objective...but the people presenting and omitting certain numbers and stats are subjective.

[@alexrubenstein3876]

so what would you point to for westbrook deserving it over harden? i think i explained pretty thoroughly why pointing to the assist/rebound combo -- the thing most alluded to -- is nonsense. with harden also holding big advantages in scoring proficiency, winning, etc. while westbrook's game had the same blemishes as harden's (and then some), what exactly should be pointed to to support westbrook's case?

[@MattMamba24]

@@alexrubenstein3876 Well...basketball is a team game. And every team and coaching staff is different. So you shouldn't compare players' stats on different team with each other 1 for 1 and give them the same value when the context is different. The type of offense you run and the support around you heavily impacts the numbers you're able to put up and the value towards them. I would argue Harden played on a Mike D'Antoni offense that is much faster paced with more scoring threats around him helping him get better looks leading to more points and assists. Essentially my same reasoning for me thinking Kobe should've won MVP over Nash in 05-06 (ironically Nash was also coached by D'Antoni that year as well) I think the research you did is great...and like I said totally understand why you took the position you took, I just believe the context behind the stats and numbers should not be ignored.

[@kingdinodragonite3470]

​@@alexrubenstein3876westbrook has a much higher on-off of +13 vs Harden's +3. Westbrook is more valuable.. Harden when he was on the bench, his team was on pace to win 51 games vs OKC without Russ' where they are on pace to only 14 wins

[@jimmyfeeney4536]

This video is just 17 minutes long of an 8 year long grudge justified by making a conclusion and working backwards to justify it.

[@jimmyfeeney4536]

This video also could have just been a 45 second long short

[@DemetriosHilton]

How😂😂

[@MrJusticeShannon]

Also, how did you not mention Harden's foul baiting? The man paved the foul baiting roads that Embiid ran on. Russ won MVP that year because everyone loved Russ skill, value as a player, narrative, value to team, and sportsmanship wise. Everyone and their mother knew that year was Westbrook's. And historically it's good for basketball that Westbrook won MVP that year because all of the OKC trio won MVPs in their own right while demonstrating the unique skill set they would continue to use and perfect for the rest of their careers. Yes only KD has rings but all 3 are and were clearly top 75 players and arguing between Russ and Harden over 2017 when that is not the year that Harden argues over is basketball blasphemy.

[@SecretBaseSBN]

1. if you believe drawing foulds/shooting free throws should be condemned, i highly disagree 2. if you do somehow harbor such a belief, how do you reconcile that westbrook only shot slightly fewer?

[@MrJusticeShannon]

@SecretBaseSBN the foul baiting narrative clung to Harden not Westbrook. There are "highlight" videos of Harden hooking his arm to draw fouls not Westbrook. Harden was the player known for kicking out his leg not Westbrook. Conversely Westbrook got his fouls by going to the rim and forcing you to foul him while you tried your hardest to play defense. One of those two is "admirable." Shooting through the foul for the and one has always been seen (rightfully so) as a sign of skill and strength. Conversely the two forms of foul baiting that Harden was well known for have been fixed by the NBA. It's 100% not the same.

[@DemetriosHilton]

Westbrook shot just as many ft as Harden try again.

[@MrJusticeShannon]

@DemetriosHilton I've already responded to this 1. No he didn't he shot fewer not a lot less but he did shoot fewer free throws. 2. There are James Harden highlights of him arm hooking players and kicking out his leg on 3 pointers. This stigma did not follow Russ. It did hold back James Harden from multiple MVPs not just 2017 (2015 and 2018 as well). Harden's play style held him back.

[@igorcosta832]

@@SecretBaseSBNcause we had EYES and we WATCHED the games? The ways westbrook got to the FT line were waaaaay different than Hardens lmao.

[@r4g3r_]

I’m sorry but this video just screams pettiness I’m so over MVP debates because it’s a vote for a reason If it would actually be handed to the true MVP of the season it wouldn’t be a vote

[@wavesofbabies]

"this video just screams pettiness" You've accurately described what this series' stated goal is, yup.

[@r4g3r_]

@@Ethan-tn4jc I'm just saying I don't like MVP debates because it's always the same stuff over and over again and the end result of every argument is the exact same I say it's pettiness because it's literally been like 8 years bro move on

[@r4g3r_]

@@wavesofbabies welp now i know lmao

[@sdelmonte]

Wow, this is judgey. Let Westbrook have his moment instead being a joyless pedant.

[@Ethan-tn4jc]

Wow, this is judgey. Let Secret Base have their moment instead of being a joyless pedant.

[@mark2220]

@@Ethan-tn4jc You make a good point, SB should have never made this fucking video. Good call.

[@mydood9675]

Its dumb to pretend that all of the value attributed to these stats was just because of the double digit gimmick. Theres also the fact that higher totals are just harder to achieve?? Acting like we should treat 8.1 rpg as just as impressive as 10.7 per game is silly. 12 players averaged 10 rpg that season. 24 players averaged 8 rpg. 10 rpg is just a higher tier of accomplishment based on how frequently it happens, regardless of the subjective "round" nature of the number 10. I would have loved a video glazing Harden's 2018-19 season where I believe he was robbed of MVP, but this video was dogshit. Disappointing from Secret Base.

[@SecretBaseSBN]

yep, westbrook had the rebounding edge, no doubt about it. so is it not silly/dumb to apparently just disregard harden's superiority in passing/playmaking though? as reflected in various scatter charts in the video (which also account for westbrook's rebounding edge). how 'bout harden's far superior scoring proficiency? you know, some of the the stuff that drove the winning of 8 more games? seems silly/dumb to ignore that stuff/act like 2 more rpg more than cancels all that out if you ask me

[@mydood9675]

@@SecretBaseSBN My main complaint is that in this video, you repeatedly said that there are no logical arguments for 31, 10, 10 being a more impactful statline than 29, 11, 8. I think there are definitely great arguments for Harden's 29, 11, 8, (especially the way he did it) many of which you presented in the video, but to claim that there are no logical arguments for 31, 10, 10 being better that don't rely solely on 10 being a cool number is disingenuous. The most obvious monkey brain argument that presents itself is that 31 > 29 and 10 > 8. That isnt relying on the subjective nature of "round" numbers. It's just pure 1 to 1 stats. Yes Harden's 29.1 ppg was more efficient with a 44.0 FG% compared to Westbrook's 31.6 on 42.5 FG%, but does that mean that Westbrooks 10.4 assists per game on 5.4 TO per game is more impressive than Harden's 11.2 on 5.7 TO per game? I just disagree that Harden's season is "objectively, statistically" better than Westbrook's if you remove the narrative around double digits.

[@mydood9675]

2 less ppg, 2 less rpg, 1 more apg... "The stats clearly don't lie, his season is objectively better you guys are just obsessed with the number 10!! >:(" lmao

[@SecretBaseSBN]

my point wasnt alluding to the raw trio of numbers. my point is that when you assess the assist/rebound combo (the thing most constantly referenced for westbrook) as the more-or-less wash that in reality it was, then what can you point to? you cant point to the scoring department, where harden was far more proficient, you cant point to the winning department, which harden did far more of, and you cant point to the harden blemishes department when westbrook had the same blemishes, etc. so what can be pointed to?

[@mydood9675]

@@SecretBaseSBN Westbrook scored more points -> Harden had a better shooting percentage. Harden had more assists -> Westbrook has less turnovers per game. Westbrook had more rebounds -> his center helped him get rebounds. Harden had more wins -> the much better 3pt shooters and better defenders on the rockets roster helped the TEAM win more games than the Thunder. Do you see how this is a healthy back and forth? We can keep "cherrypicking" if you want to call it that, but I think there is clearly more to the Westbrook argument than "round numbers" Harden losing this one is not the most ridiculous reason ever with no logical backbone to it. 2018-19 on the other hand... that one hurts

[@hiimemily]

Every single top comment so far was made before anyone could have possibly watched the full video. Just keep that in mind.

[@WesleyWilkins-qf2ky]

Ppl figured out that’s the only way their comments will get attention before it’s buried beneath a thousand other comments

[@scarfaceaceo]

@@WesleyWilkins-qf2kyppl putting that much value on KZbin comments is pretty sad

[@WesleyWilkins-qf2ky]

@scarfaceaceo Indeed

[@davidhoff4285]

Leonard had a better season in more team success than both those players

[@micahjohnson425]

Stats say otherwise but sure

[@samuraiteensy8004]

I’m a big Harden guy, we went to Arizona State University at the same time (go Sun Devils) but we ALL know that what Russ did PLUS the narrative of KD abandoning OKC is why he won.

[@andrewarnold9751]

No. They still finished significantly worse than when Durant had been there, so that really wasn’t the narrative at the time. It was entirely the triple doubles. Go back and read articles from on the time. That was the entire narrative. Guys in 6th seed teams just didn’t win MVP at that stage of NBA history (and hasn’t for decades). If Russ had averaged two more assists, but two less rebounds a game, he’d have had an objectively better season, but Harden or Kawhi would have won because their teams were better.

[@samuraiteensy8004]

@ I’m not saying they were better. What I am saying is that the narrative definitely WAS Westbrook’s revenge tour in the media. That PLUS the triple doubles is why he won. Narrative always controls MVP. If it didn’t he wouldn’t have won it

[@user-bp1pu]

@@samuraiteensy8004 narrative usually was that winning is just as important as stats. It completely flipped on harden despite the stats being better for harden. The league had it out for him.

[@mydood9675]

Yes but this video was still a weird battle to pick. Westbrook had more ppg and more rpg this season. Simple as that. Would have preferred a video about the 2018-19 MVP race. I think its ridiculous that Harden didn't win that one, almost solely because of voter fatigue. I have never seen a scoring season like that in my life!

[@user-bp1pu]

@mydood9675 harden had a better record by a lot and more assists. And he was a more efficient scorer by a mile. Harden was a better scorer that year.

[@foodjones2456]

I think the inflated stats of today's game fool people into thinking what he did was overrated. Russ in his peak was legendary. You had to be there.

[@fortynights1513]

Is the pace slower then?

[@foodjones2456]

@fortynights1513 a little. Just less points, assists, and far less 3s back then

[@hundredpercentjuice]

Imagine wasting time on this when Deion just talked Hunter to the heisman

[@MrJusticeShannon]

Secret Base, I agree with you about everything, EVERYTHING except this. The story of Russell Westbrook's career is not just the triple double but also dragging teams that do not belong to the playoffs. "Westbrook is your favorite player's favorite player," needs to be held in mind. It wasn't just the triple double it was KD leaving OKC. It was OKC leaving Seattle and only having one of their big three remaining. It was the clear sign that the era was ending. The MVP has always been in part a narrative story and the narrative here was fully in Westbrook's favor. This is not the MVP that Harden complains about. Harden complains about losing out against Giannis in the MVP race. If Harden doesn't complain about this MVP y'all are tripping. Like, did you watch Westbrook play? That is the definition of playing with heart on every play and that heart is what got them into the playoffs.

[@daltonfarris]

Yep, plus harden is an annoying player and less likeable than russ. It wasn't until 2018 that 16 year Olds and the media decided to start blaming russ for every problem. "It Rained on my wedding day, Brian windhorse - it's probably because Russell westbrook can't space the floor and tries to get triple doubles"

[@AdamJones-dy4zg]

​@@daltonfarristhat windhorst thing sounds 100% a light hearted joke

[@daltonfarris]

@AdamJones-dy4zg ik I was joking, but there were some real terrible russ takes, this was back when Ryan Collins was at his worst. I think Ryan Collins knows more than Perkins though.

[@offthegooppp]

Respectfully the video is about how rationally, one player was much better but because of narrative and convenience, they picked Westbrook. I def agree brodie is a much funner player but like that’s not what defines an MVP nor does play style.

[@MrJusticeShannon]

@@offthegooppp I fully disagree. D Rose, Giannis, Steph 2015, and Embiid all fall into the "statistically not the best," but definitely more fun, better narrative and in 3/4 cases the better liked player category. This MVP is not out of the norm at all.

[@jasongalvan135]

Harden's reputation with the media has cost him at least two MVPs. People just got annoyed with his defense and fouls and that was reason enough to dislike him apparently.

[@lucaslonchampt613]

I personally always believed that Kawhi Leonard should have been the 2017 MVP

[@prod.snqwfall1347]

Came straight to the comments to find my corner of this hill. Yes, yes, yes…

[@philippeduchamp3660]

I totally agree

[@fortynights1513]

Why Kawhi over both?

[@lucaslonchampt613]

@fortynights1513 Averaging 26 points per game with the Spurs on high efficiency, good rebounder for his size, good assist to turnover ratio and the best defensive player in the league. A 2-way superstar on a 60-win team, that has very good stats on good efficiency

[@fortynights1513]

@@lucaslonchampt61360 wins is more than both I believe. How was the rest of his team at the time compared to Harden’s and Westbrook’s?

[@corbinmacklin185]

One of the biggest problems with how we view the modern NBA is we never have the convo "who is actually most valuable to their team?" we just go "advanced metrics say this guy so gg" and when we're not crowning someone for gaudy stats we have to make sure we protect Larry Bird. Every single time someone modern approaches 3 back to back MVPs they give it to the wrong person just to ensure Bird is the only back to back to back winner.

[@yup2393]

Only counter argument I can make here is that this video completely removes the context of Harden’s and Westbrook’s team. That Rockets team was considerably better around the edges than that OKC team; to imply that that Rockets team wasn’t great because of who the “Robin” is, while ignoring Westbrook’s “Robin” is disingenuous and flatly just incorrect

[@SecretBaseSBN]

oh no problem: westbrook's robin was victor oladipo, a man who when he was gone the next season just happened to be an all-star 55 wins with eric gordon as robin seems to pretty clearly be a far bigger accomplishment than 47 wins with oladipo as robin (and there were certainly other good role players too like the discussed steven adams). do you disagree?

[@burro606]

​@@SecretBaseSBNyes absolutely cherry picking Oladipo who was bad that year and injured, because he had a couple good all star years in the east is crazy look at the full team rosters rockets were soooo much better that OKC team wins less than 20 games without Russ I watched all 82 they stunk

[@benjaminsymon5165]

​@SecretBaseSBN a team is made up of many players. Not just a Batman and a Robin. Would you disagree that the Celtics last year had a deeper roster than Dallas even though the top 2 players from each team were evenly matched? The rockets had two great bench scorers in Lou Williams and Eric Gordon. Clint was a solid starter. Mike D'antoni was their coach. They had two more double digit scorers in Ariza and Anderson. Pat Bev as a great defender. They were pretty stacked. Im not saying OKC didn't have good players around Russ, but this Robin argument is very dishonest imo

[@Master-Debator]

@@SecretBaseSBN I respectfully disagree, and I will die on this hill. Having the whole Robin argument is useless because Batman and Robin don’t win 🏀 games, teams do. The thunder top 8 was Russ, Oladipo, Roberson, Sabonis ( as a wing/floor spacers!!), Adams, Kanter, Taj Gibson, and Doug McDermott, with some bench appearances by Abrines and young Jerami Grant. Houston’s top 8 was Harden, Eric Gordon, Trevor Ariza, Pat Bev, Ryan Andersen, Lou Williams, Capela, and Sam Dekker with Nene and Montrez Harrell coming of the bench. You are being disingenuous if you can look at those and see similar/ equal value, especially in today’s modern game. One team is constructed for the 80s and the other was constructed for modern times

[@Master-Debator]

@ I’m glad I’m not alone, I hate bashing my favorite channel but this Russ slander can not stand

[@Kaaaaaaaam]

Counterpoint: Westbrook absolutely deserved the trophy. If Harden had won, then good for him. However, that doesn't mean Russ was not deserving and that's all that matters.

[@hiitsmeyou]

Westbrook was closer in impact to an average All-nba season. He was absolutely worse than Kawhi, Harden, Steph, and Durant. It was the most emotional MVP vote in the history of the media vote era

[@jordylont1879]

The MVP should always go to the player that meant the most to their team. That could be a great player on a bad team. I hate the idea that it should always go to the best player on the best team

[@user-bp1pu]

@@jordylont1879 harden shouldnt get punished for winning more. He was just as important. The rockets were a bunch of role players and harden.

[@Imknowitall]

@@user-bp1puso was that thunder team. VO wasn’t all star version yet and same with sabonis. I saw Norris Cole celebrate when Westbrook hit that game winner, that team was spooky

[@malikparks7482]

Awards are based on narrative. The voters are journalists/reporters. Their role is to make a story that is worth talking about. Straight stats don't have the same talking points.

[@xsa442]

slight disingenuous here. capela and gordon were both incredible. capela was the perfect pick and roll big and gordon provided incredible spacing with his lethal shooting. the west was also not that loaded as teams lost hope because of warriors. in their own division, mavs, grizzlies were tanking. the other team was okc which you describe as not being that good

[@SecretBaseSBN]

do you think capela/gordon was a significantly better (or even better at all) duo than oladipo/adams?

[@chrisdwellingham5320]

​@@SecretBaseSBNwhy are you limiting it to two players? Is it because rookie Sabonis or Enes Kanter was the 4th and 5th guys in OKC while Montrezl was the 10th man in Houston? Montrezl, Lou Will, and Pat Bev won 42 and 48 games in LA the next two seasons after this, if anything they cemented the idea that Harden's team without him was still a playoff contender.

[@MrReese]

This has to be the pettiest, saltiest and most embarrassing cope I have ever seen :D.

[@joeydaniewicz6980]

have you considered that james harden getting second again is funny tho

[@CowboiDan]

yea sorry boys this video sucks, efficiency be damned, the advanced metrics all show that Westbrook was a more impactful player in his MVP season. There are also moments like the parking lot 3 ball that have an aura that data can't ever account for. The man was a complete beast all year, he deserves his MVP, full stop.

[@alexrubenstein3856]

harden led westbrook in some advanced metrics, westbrook led harden in some advanced metrics, but i'll push back on that by asking you this: which of the advanced metrics in which westbrook was ranked above harden would you have liked me to mention? vorp? a metric in which otto porter was ranked above in-their-prime future HoFers paul george and klay thompson and ranked mason plumlee and tobias harris above thompson and jrue holiday. not to mention ranking tyler johnson above lamarcus aldridge. is that the one i should've used? there's bpm, a metric in which danny green was ranked above klay thompson and had kyle lowry and mike conley above anthony davis and had otto porter above paul george and had tyler johnson above jrue holiday and klay thompson and lamarcus aldridge. perhaps thats the one i should've used? how 'bout PER? a metric in which mason plumlee was ranked above klay thompson and draymond green, and ish smith was ranked above andre iguodala and devin booker, and enes kanter was ranked #17 in the league? could've honed in on that one too

[@dirtreynolds1456]

yay, we’re litigating MVPs from the first Trump Administration, great. Russ had a significantly worse roster. I realize this next point is purely subjective, but Russ felt like he tried all 48 minutes while Harden conserved himself on defense. It’s hard to win MVP when the only people bolstering you up are nerds that care more about spreadsheets than people that actually played the game saying the other guy is having a better season. This waffling about advanced metrics and “efficiency” is why no one took Harden seriously. Too many lowlights of him not caring on defense before passing to one of his elite three-point shooting compatriots on the other end or chucking up a contested 29-footer after dribbling the air out of the ball is not fun to watch while Russ’ relentlessness and tenacity won the hearts of millions and the hardware.

[@user-bp1pu]

The advanced stats arent that advanced. They show the impact made. You prove his point. Westbrook won only off of vibes. Russ wasnt a good defender either.

[@duyanhng8430]

why didn’t anyone gave him the mvp the other 3 times he averaged a triple double then? Cuz ppl figured his schtick, it doesn’t led to team success

[@tatum1140]

Ridiculous take

[@Go_Wit_Da_Flow]

When you choose to overlook Westbrooks historical feat and brush it off as stat padding to make a case for Harden who manipulated the game to get to the line more than anyone in the league, then you're just a lost cause and should rethink your argument for this take. Harden had an entire system built around him to be as efficient as he was. Russ had just lost KD and had an unbelievable winning record when he got a Triple Double. Making the playoffs in the process. The fact that a higher seed should always win MVP is also a dumb take. It's not too late for you to delete this video. 🙄

[@user-bp1pu]

@@Go_Wit_Da_Flow harden had eric gordon and a bunch of role players. He was the system that made the great. His roster was better fitting yes. But harden elevated all those guys.

[@sffan10]

It should have been Kawhi’s MVP anyway.

[@nocturne311]

Not really. Westbrook led the NBA in PPG while getting to the line over 10 times a game. He also led the league in PER, BPM and VORP. Westbrook played 81 games that season and the Thunder went 47-35 with their second and third best players being pre-breakout Oladipo and Kanter. Russ was the rightful MVP that season.

[@user-bp1pu]

Harden was a better scorer especially with efficiency, better passer, created more points and his team won 8 more games. These criteria are automatic mvp but voters voted based off of vibes and narratives.

[@DemetriosHilton]

Why nobody mentions how the playoffs exposed WestBrook that year BAD. Dude shot all the teams shots literally. Nobody brands that as "real" basketball that's why his stats were unreal. There's really a guy on the OKC roster that only shot one shot for a 5 game series. Nobody is even close in FGA to Westbrook regular or post season on that squad, stop the narrative that those guys didn't take huge loss letting Westbrook ball hog and pressure them to shoot for his assist totals. We ALL know Adams let him grind out his rebound numbers.

[@jagutichsachma]

​@@DemetriosHiltonbecause playoffs don't matter for the mvp discussion. And yes, i agree - teams gameplanned to dare Westbrook to shoot and he shot them right out of the podtseason. A year later too.

[@DIAC1987]

@@DemetriosHilton The playoffs also proved why the Thunder needed Kevin Durant----who left them for the damn Warriors.

[@hiitsmeyou]

BPM and VORP are the same stat. You can’t say someone led in both like they led in two distinct things. They’re also bad stats, but not nearly as bad as PER

[@horabfibslager8762]

counterpoint, the MVP award is a fake made up award given by the media, not players/coaches/teams. So the fact that people are still whining about the 2017 MVP race tells me they made the right pick.

[@exwhyz7990]

I do think Westbrook wasn't the best player in the world at all, but it's hard to deny him the title of "most valuable." Even if he did blatantly statpad, he did get the stats at the end of the day, and he singlehandedly carried a not-very-good team to the 6th or so seed. Westbrook was still deserving of it, and Harden did deservedly end up winning the very next year, so it's not as if it was a total robbery that derailed a legacy. It was a mostly narrative award, but I do believe that sometimes a strong enough Narrative backed up by a player actually having an MVP-caliber season warrants them an MVP, especially in a year where most of the usual contenders weren't really there. LeBron was in the 3rd year of his regular-season decline (only to be interrupted the very next year), KD and Steph canceled out each others' chances, Kawhi was elite but never truly MVP-worthy, and everyone else wasn't seriously in the convo at all.

[@hirshja]

Get off of it dude. Steven Adams and Victor Oladipo are both better players than Eric Gordon and Clint Capela, yet the rockets had a better seed.

[@scottjeffrey3472]

LOL you can't even google which seed OKC was before taking the time to argue with a video on youtube?

[@4xpbroyalderp295]

Same can be said for harden tho, you think a big 3 of Ryan Anderson, Eric Gordon and Clint capela was even gonna sniff finishing as the 3 seed in the west?

[@fredlarson2954]

The "not very good" team came into the season with 7th best odds to win the title. Houston was down at 18th. The Thunder barely bested their preseason W/L odds while the Rockets blew theirs out of the water.

[@RANDOMZBOSSMAN1]

@@fredlarson2954Yup Vegas had OKC winning more games than the Rockets that season and the Rockets blew the win predictions out of the water

[@crisomii]

I think you forgot the main point that decided the MVP: Westbrook’s team would’ve been dead last in the NBA without him.

[@paulorodrigues170]

Alex: Nice analysis Me, an NBA expert: Westbrook's aura > anyone

[@CasterShellz]

"Westbrook's organization" 😂

[@WorriedWombat]

Bruh, get over it. It's been 7 years. Stop whining. Bro's like "I'm gonna invalidate Westbrook's MVP with stats and logic 🤓☝🏻".

[@TheRafaelBond]

Absolutely none of this was said at the time which makes conclusions like this very sus. This is pure revisionist history. Everyone watching ball at the time saw peak Westbrook and he was more impressive than Harden.

[@SaintsFan98]

We strenuously object to this terrible take

[@Scoots1994]

Everyone has a right to be wrong.

[@CoachOutah]

Speak for yourself. They basically had the same season but Harden had a higher FG%, way Higher TS%, and way higher +/-. Harden was the better player that year.

[@Master-Debator]

@@CoachOutahharden could kick it out to Ariza, Ryan Andersen, Lou Williams, or Eric Gordon at the 3. Russ could kick it out to ‘checks notes’ Andre Roberson, Kyle Singler, Semaj Christian, Alex Abrines, and Doug McDermott.

[@user-bp1pu]

It was a close battle at the time. And harden had 8 more wins with similar stats. Westbrook won because of narratives and aura. Westbrook didnt win with the traditional criteria voters used. Harden fit the criteria but it suddenly changed.

[@CoachOutah]

@ cool. Thunder should have constructed the team better. What I said was still true. Harden is not a spacing black hole like Russ is.

[@David.D.Great26]

MVP isn’t a stats award that’s why Harden Didn’t win

[@mctheplaywright]

You’re looking at stats in a vacuum so you can make an engagement bait hot take. I think one could make a case for either Harden or Westbrook as MVP. But, one pick or the other is only insane void of context. I’ve come to expect better researched work from SB, this feels like a first draft.

[@user-bp1pu]

@@mctheplaywright the context is that you need a top 3 seed to win usually but that was thrown out the window for westbrook because voters hated harden. Harden's stats were better too. His scoring efficiency was way better.

[@CrazyxEnigma]

​@@user-bp1puHarden was also terrible to watch and the worst foul baiter I had ever seen at that point(I'd argue even today as bad as it is peak Harden was worse). That's getting lost in these conversations that only talk about stats and stats have never been the be all end all narrative has always mattered and Westbrook had the perfect narrative to go with doing what hadn't been seen since Oscar Robertson.

[@taptiotrevizo9415]

​@CrazyxEnigma how doesnthat mean Harden was less valuable tho?. Because tho free throws make him more valuable than Russ. It's shitty looking but if you using that means you don't how this game is played

[@CrazyxEnigma]

@@taptiotrevizo9415 It means Harden wasn't liked because of how he played fair or not whether the voters like the player or not it impacts the vote and the voters had been sick of him for years already he got left off All NBA entirely a couple years earlier despite clearly being an All NBA caliber player statistically because of his antics. He got his MVP a year later so it's not like his career was forever damaged or anything like that. Personally I think Harden and that playstyle he got away with and was absolutely terrible to watch far worse then the slow grindy games of the early 00s is directly responsible for all the foul baiting that's done by so many players today and is ruining the game.

[@taptiotrevizo9415]

@CrazyxEnigma Not even Harden fan I think the guy was overrated. Idnt he should have won over Giannis in 2019. But in 2017 he was clearly more valuable than Russ and voting for Russ is a perfect example on why accolades are completely shitty ways to rank players

[@saintjarey]

westbrook had better impact stats. westbrook had better advanced creation stats. westbrook had the worst team spacing any MVP-level player in the modern era has ever had. westbrook had the most absurd on/off splits we’ve seen to this day besides maybe jokic. he was better at everything in basketball aside from self creation and shooting. put this with how beautifully he was playing in the final stretch of the season and the KD narrative and the triple double record and this was so obviously his MVP we cant spread misinformation to start the new year bro

[@jaxjaggywires]

Don’t care. Westbrook deserved it and got it.

[@foosball486]

As a Rockets fan, I would have loved for Harden to win the MVP that year in what was an incredible individual season. I think it's clear that Harden put up the best offensive stats that year, but his off-ball defense was actually atrocious. Russ' excuse is that he gambles on defense a good amount - Harden actually just forgot his assignment existed. I think it was a close race at the end of the day, and there's actually plenty of stats that show that Russ was much better than appeared than Harden that year too (e.g. per 36min and per 100 poss numbers). If there was a year for there to be a tie, this could've definitely been one of them.

[@PranjalDhungana]

remember: the narrative wasn't just the triple double. But also the fact that KD had left him. That boosted his case by quite a margin.

[@SecretBaseSBN]

true, and also so dumb! if prime mike jordan had been on the '16 rockets and then left, that wouldnt have inherently rendered what '17 harden did any more valuable. your team is your team, regardless of who used to be on it

[@ishraquechowdhury9199]

Ain’t no way bro, you seem to not understand the narrative, it’s the heart not the picked out numbers. This has to be rage bait bro

[@___________________.]

@@ishraquechowdhury9199narratives aren’t reality. Narratives shouldn’t decide awards

[@kingdinodragonite3470]

​@@___________________.westbrook has a much higher on-off of +13 vs Harden's +3. Westbrook is more valuable.

[@EdwardGGaming]

People forgot that this OKC team was w/o KD due to jumping on GSW. They would not be a playoff team in the 1st place if Russ aint on the team and doing that TD stuff. 2017 Houston team could still be a playoff team (8th seed at most) if Harden aint on the team.

[@AmariElijah-b5g]

Oscar Robinson was held in a mythical stature, because he averaged a triple double. Westbrook then does it while leading the league in scoring, yet you demenish it's importance simply because you don't like him? Oh okay..

[@SecretBaseSBN]

sorry who since oscar averaged 11 and 8 again?

[@q.7556]

Westbrook. He averaged 10.8 assists that season dawg, harden averaged 11.1. Bad take

[@SecretBaseSBN]

10.4 (his real number) is not 10.8, but even 10.8 is not 11.2 ... so yes, the fact remains harden, just like westbrook, also produced an assist/rebound combo not seen since oscar

[@q.7556]

@ oh pardon me I used per 36 instead of actual numbers that’s my bad

[@kingdinodragonite3470]

Westbrook has a much better on-off than Harden. Therefore Westbrook is more impactful.

[@vjm212]

OK, but here's the +/- per 100 possessions: 1. Russell Westbrook • OKC 11.1 2. Kawhi Leonard • SAS 9.4 3. Kevin Durant • GSW 8.9 4. James Harden • HOU 8.7

[@alexrubenstein3876]

bpm is a metric in which danny green was ranked above klay thompson...kyle lowry & mike conley were ranked above anthony davis...otto porter was ranked above paul george...tyler johnson was ranked above jrue holiday & klay thompson & lamarcus aldridge tough to put much (any) stock in that

[@ganglyman22]

I long for the day Secret Base starts to use True Shooting Points Added in its videos

[@Ty_Guy2K]

a real snub is bryant over CP3 in 07-08. CP3’s efficiency and advance stats show how valuable he was to that hornets team that finished as the 2 seed in the west without another big star around him. yeah West was good, chandler provided great defense, and stojakovic still had some left in the tank, but CP3 was the only star on that team and carried them with his efficient scoring, solid defense, and, of course, outstanding play making skills

[@UncleJJ899]

Can’t wait for the sequel 2019 James Harden vs Giannis for MVP

[@alisyed7659]

Steven Adams blocking out so Russell Westbrook statpad Rebounds, even stole Steven Adams Rebounds. Russell Westbrook Assists is mostly close layup passes.

[@Bareus34]

1:04 - that’s the reason. No need for this video at all. Triple-double used to mean something and Westbrook achieved it as the first guy since Oscar. Historical context matters whether you like it or not

[@SecretBaseSBN]

so then why doesnt the historical context of '17 harden ALSO averaging an assist/rebound combo not seen since oscar matter? why is it only that westbrook doing so matters? the answer is because of round numbers, and thats asinine

[@Bareus34]

@ because Westbrook assist/rebound combo was more impressive for a guard. Not to mention he didn’t have significant help around him after KD left. And then again - triple-double was the mark - not a different combination of stats

[@elbowgang9715]

​@@SecretBaseSBNcry more punk 😂

[@SecretBaseSBN]

harden didnt have a star teammate either, but still led his team to way more wins. the 1.86 rebounds per game separating harden from his own triple-double average dont more than cancel out his far superior scoring, passing/playmaking, winning, etc. sorry, it just doesnt. especially when 11 and 8 is just as historically unique an assist/rebound combo and arguably as or more impactful/valuable a combo

[@kingdinodragonite3470]

​@@SecretBaseSBNwestbrook has a much higher on-off of +13 vs Harden's +3. Westbrook is more valuable.

[@joelwillems4081]

Harden was never deserving of an MVP. You can't even call what he plays Basketball, because it doesn't follow any of the rules. Traveling and/or carrying with every single possession. Never playing defense. In the 2010s, he didn't even make an attempt at it and was often cherry picking on offense. Using actual basketball rules, any college basketball started would beat in 1 on 1.