THE 3.23 META YOU NEED TO KNOW! [StarCitizen]

Join this channel to get access to perks:
/ @avenger__one
JOIN US ON TWITCH: / avenger__one
OR ON DISCORD: / discord
OR ON TWITTER: / avenger__one
TOBII DISCOUNT CODE: AVENGERONE
PREDITOR MOUNTS DISCOUNT CODE: AVENGERONE
Be sure to check out the "CORE SKILLS PLAYLIST" for your first steps into PVP
and welcome to the most active PVP skills channel for StarCitizen. Now get your ship ready
and lets put in our 1% improvement ethos to work, and make a killer pilot out of you.

[@folkengames]

A pack of fighters SHOULD be reluctant to engage a multi-turret ship that is properly crewed. A single pilot who's mastered their ship SHOULD be able to take down 2 foes of lesser skill if they pilot well. Hopefully they will balance things!

[@jordanroberts7931]

Completely agree. Multi-crewed S3 ships and larger should almost never be able to be taken out by 1-3 fighters. Like ever. It SHOULD require large hordes of fighters to take out an 8 player-multi crewed avertised "anti-fighter" ship. It's just ridiculous to expect otherwise.

[@Sattorin]

The only practical way to do this is to make bigger ships have longer range and higher projectile velocity on their weapons (including turrets). They could even just tie it to the ship's powerplant size and use the lore explanation of "more power means shots go further, faster".

[@jordanroberts7931]

@@Sattorin Ya I just don't understand why larger ships can't shoot further. You would think bigger guns would = longer range. In fact, that's probably what NEEDS to occur to bring multi-crewe ships into there they need to be. So they can't just be kited by a SNUB fighter. Which is the silliest thing I've ever heard of.

[@unlicensed_camera]

​@jordanroberts7931 I have taken out multiple fighters with a crewed ship many times, it's called get good, it's a sim it's supposed to be hard, and there should be incentive to crew your ship but whatever we getting MM anyway and there is nothing I can do about it, even if it takes away part of the allure of starcitizen for me.

[@dimman77]

​@@SattorinOr lasers could actually go the speed of light?

[@nuanil]

I was the Hawk pilot, and there's exactly one scenario where i potentially survive: 1. I start reverse thrust before i land 2. Immediately boost in reverse 3. Decouple and pitch 180 4. Re-enable NAV mode 5. Align and QT out And somewhere in there find time to open the map, cancel my route, and hope you haven't caught up to me. But i made three mistakes that doomed me. 1. I only saw a single red hostile and no neutrals, and coasted towards the hostile contemplating engaging. 2. I didn't cancel my destination 3. I took far too long to identify how many bogies i was up against. By the time everyone throttled up and lit up my HUD, it was over.

[@weynewman6415]

Wait, so as a pilot thats returning, is stealth viable now?

[@moeb1us]

We need a dedicated key binding for canceling am active route since forever

[@ONYX1768]

As a hawk pilot I will say its a bit odd that the bounty hunting light fighter didn't get interceptor tuning w/ the implementation of MM. Like why is the ship that's designed to capture fleeing bounties be unable to keep pace? The hawk is still my favorite despite all its issues from the fact that its best suited to energy builds, but its capacitors/number of weapons make that kinda hard. I hope that once it gets is mm retuning pass they consider the issues mentioned.

[@emu1113]

they are scared to make the hammerhead op but it needs to be it need 7-8 ppl to crew it should be equal to 10 - 12 fighters minimum

[@AankerStoneshield]

gib battlefield 1 flak power to the hammerhead

[@durtyred86]

I agree with you 100% In fact, I'd go as far as to say a HH should be ANY fighters greatest fear. Sure, a swarm of fighters can land good shots and take the teeth from the HH, but anytime one shows up in a fight, fighters should automatically say "oh shit" and either high tail it out or focus fire the turrets to disable it's offensive capability. That's it. A swarm of Crack shot fighters or bombers.

[@daren5393]

If the issue is that smaller ships have a smaller hit profile, and therefore can hit bigger ships from further away than they can get hit, why not just give all ships a static modifier to their projectile speed and spread, based on their size? Then you can dial all ships in to have roughly the same range of engagement, and you can control what that range is

[@joshuaclark3848]

Ships aren't meant to be equal, CIG and making everything equal is silly

[@_Anaklysmos_]

@@durtyred86 I'm not sure if we are on the same page regarding the HH, but I'm just gonna share my opinion. The HH should be a ship that defends a location and serves as an anker point in the battle. Light/Medium Fighters should fear the HH in a way that if they get too close, they will die. However, if they stay away, obviously nothing will happen to them as the HH is way slower and can't catch up with them. However, for that to work, the turret ranges of the HH need to be increased, so the Fighters can't hit the HH safely from far away. Additionally, their small weapons shouldn'T even penetrate the hull, that's the job of size 4 guns and up or maybe even only size 5 and up. So, the HH wouldn't be able to free the sky of Light Fighters if they don't wanna engage, but it can safely defend a location like JT (of which we need more of in the verse) or it can keep the middle of a fleet battle clear from the pesky little mosquito fighters. That's how I would balance it. (FYI, I am a Gladius/Scorpius Pilot and want to fly nothing else later on in the game, so you see, contrary to my playstyle, I would still like the Hammerhead to be buffed against Light Fighters as I don't even want to engage such ships in this game. I fly Light Fighters to fight other Light Fighters. That is my role and that should be the only role of that ship) But to be clear: Light Fighters and such shouldn't be nerfed like it happened in MasterModes. Instead, the HH should be buffed with actual armor and higher turret ranges.

[@xkillerpn]

As I said before . Any ship that takes the pilot over 9g there needs to be a consequence. Not just a blurry vision for a second.

[@33vortex]

Predictable outcomes I would say. In terms of WW2 air combat the pilots of the era said "altitude is life, speed is your saviour" Meaning that with altitude, you have more options due to a higher energy state and can dictate the terms of any engagement against lower opponents. While a higher top speed is going to get you out of trouble should you step in it. There's a lot more to say about energy states and WW2 combat but I'll leave it there. Seeing how SC has no altitude factor, speed and maneuverability are the only two relevant factors that are ship specific. I'd claim that the only reasonable way to balance fighters vs fightesr would be to set a hard limit to SCM speed and balance things out with maneuverability vs firepower, take SCM speed out of the equation. Make missiles the tool they should be, to hit targets you can't reach with guns and force them to maneuver so that you can close in. For repositioning during a fightllow people to enter NAV mode for higher speeds in combat, with the associated risks. Make team vs team fights a game of geometry and positioning, and the combat will be in a good spot. As for multicrew ships. Make them that much harder to kill. Large ships should be difficult to kill with S5 weapons and perhaps require S6 even, unless you can surgically hit key components with specialized weapons for penetration of armor. Entry level weapons for Capital ship killing would be S7-S8. End result should be that; 1) Fighters are unable to kill Large size ships and bigger. Damage? Yes in some cases (heavy fighters) decisively kill no, not without very specialized assets. 2) Fighter vs fighter combat needs to be about positioning and maneuverability, in addition to the obvious ship configuration choices which are not tactical decisions. 3) Larger multicrewed ships needs to be much more effective against smaller ships. Why else would you even use them???

[@Schimml0rd]

Afaik only 2 Bf-110s survived ww2 (two-seater heavy fighter), so maybe that's what cig is going for - to kill off and make obsolete the multicrew ships.. 😢

[@33vortex]

@@Schimml0rd The Bf110 was obsolete before it entered service. The idea of a rear gunner making any difference for a heavy fighter was never accurate. RLM set a requirement for a rear gunner on its heavy fighters, if that requirement had been omitted the superior Fw187 had been procured instead and undoubtedly performed better in the zerstörer role.

[@Zach-rw6jf]

Multi Crew ships need to be encouraged, not discouraged. There should be an exponential gain the more people that are required to crew a ship.

[@emu1113]

big ship should be force multipliers

[@wafflesinsanity]

Agreed. I still believe that a ship with 8 crew should be 8 times the 'combat weight' of a single seater. I know it doesn't sounds "fair" but the reality is that in games of this scale, there is no "fairness" in comparing a larger more capable ship to a smaller seemingly less capable ship. Imagine if modern day Naval combat was dominated by fishing boats with gatlings on the nose vs modern day naval warships. CIG really painted themselves into a corner by trying to make ALL ships have some kind of edge. When in reality, the Hammerhead should ALWAYS win against small fighter squadrons, with a lower combat weight. e.g. a Hammerhead with 4 active turrets, 1 pilot, 1 engineer/turret should always win against 6 small aircraft, and as the number of aircraft increase to 7+ the difficulty for the Hammerhead to comete should rise dramatically. The Ion and Inferno were literally made to kill ships like the Hammerhead, so that was a moot point. You can see the *intent* behind the whole Rock Paper Scissors design for Capital ships, but when we get to the large, medium, and lights, it gets muddled.

[@astellios1748]

It will come with armour, also meta now mean nothing... it can be changed in couple of days.

[@ddavis5442]

Not to mention that NOW you need both gunners and crew to be effective. So even a hammerhead needs 8 people with only 6 turrets

[@DVCasey0311]

as long as we can get npc crew members. Not everyone wants to play with other people and they shouldn't be left behind.

[@TheNikosawa]

simple solution for multicrew ships. weapon range. size 1-3 1500m. size 4-5 3000m. size 6-8 4000m. size 9-10 6000m. this way small fighters cant get into multicrew ship weapon range without taking fire first.

[@spaceman112211]

Accelerate corsair or 600i to 900m/s and you'll have 7-8 kilometer firing range. The problem is you can't land hits at this distances even on bigger ships. Don't even mention light fighters. Even if they fly straight at you. So increasing the range won't do, especially with the hyroscopic turrets movement which makes leading a target even worse. Bigger ships should have their under fire shield recharge back. That is what will make fighter pilots think twice.

[@TUROCK320]

@@spaceman112211 size 1-3 1500m (1500 m/s velocity). size 4-5 3000m (3000m/s velocity). size 6-8 4000m(3500 m/s velocity). size 9-10 6000m(5000 m/s velocity) Random number but you have the idea. WTF are you talking about "accelerate Corsair and 600i ? are you one of those people ?

[@TheNikosawa]

@@TUROCK320 thats kinda the idea. would work well for muticrew at least.

[@TUROCK320]

@@TheNikosawa CiG tested that by the way... bu i think they meat some technical issues. It is not as simple as that

[@spaceman112211]

@@TUROCK320 I'm talking about the ability to shoot over these distances even in 3.22 and before if you are firing from these particular ships at speed. Go try hit moving target at 6000m I'll take a look. I bet you'll start hitting it at around 3km or less anyway. It doesn't matter what a projectile speed is cause you need to hit a freaking pixel at this distance.

[@Devildog0491]

As an avid pvper from other games I watch these vids and I consistently just think "not yet" for when I want to actually get into SC

[@JagHiroshi]

As a solo player ... I'm screwed.

[@StopYTShorts]

stop being anti social and join a org.

[@_lostclub]

@@StopYTShorts anti social doesn't mean you're shy, it means you are incapable of understanding social queues and fitting in with others.

[@phylippe85]

​@@StopYTShorts stop being a dick. Your kind is the reason I'm solo…

[@Sattorin]

The sad truth is that the average player just isn't going to listen to you until they start suffering from these issues when MM goes live. As a teacher all I can say is that you're doing a great job presenting valuable information, and it's their loss if they refuse to learn before they get burned.

[@escapetarkov3838]

Can't get burned if you uninstall ;-)

[@Parobro]

No, it’s our loss.

[@solventob]

The sad truth is that 90% of SC players don't engage in PvP or even ship combat. To be honest, I don't blame them. We were promised a space combat simulator (which we have never gotten) but instead keep moving closer and closer to "Ace Combat: Assault Horizon" or "Blazing Angels: Squadrons of WWII"

[@Parobro]

@@solventob which is fine tbh, but i agree that the casuals, to a degree ofc ruin this potential of the game to invent a totally new style of combat unique on this planet. the amount of times i read i should roleplay because my "pirate activities" wouldnt earn me anything if i kill XYZ person is heartbreaking tbh, i just like the thrill of him maybe bringing people or having backup next time, but ye, game is dead in this regard.

[@grayssoncarl5020]

@@Parobro Actually its the people that force PVP on PVE players that ruined more or less EVERY game that tried to mix PVE and PVE without an opt-out or opt-in for PVP. Most of the time PVE players are the big majority of players which equals into the ones making a game financially successful. Which makes a game unsuccessful when they are leaving because they just become victims. And its completely irrelevant what the pvp players think...their opinion just doesnt matter because what the pve players feels is what lets him leave in the end. If he doenst have fun he leaves and "pvp" players (although stating that they are only interested in fair fights...which makes me wonder why cheaters are such a big problem in many games) run out of victims. Then they leave to to the next game (where the pvp players went) and the cycle more or less repeats.

[@raven9ine]

8:02 so, the flight model that was supposed to address jousting, basically made it meta? Before at least, fighter vs fighter, would make jousting usually only drag the fight along, but likely the jouster eventually would lose.

[@SuccessTeBestRevenge]

Correct. And AO and a bunch of people have been saying it since it was introduced as a potential.

[@vegafelproductions5258]

So basicly, wolf pack / gank squad tactics are meta.... just like every MMO ever.

[@RedlinePush]

I don't hate the idea that 1 guy won't be able to lock down a station now. get a few random low skills to attack together and you can probably push a solo off the station. Currently, if that solo player is good, you can bring 5 randoms and the solo will win.

[@needy3535]

>:)

[@_Anaklysmos_]

then higher some other good players to defend the stations. That's how economy works. Also this could just be fixed by actually well performing turrets and Navy NPCs in the future. No need to just take out all the skill out of the game to achieve what you are asking for. That's the worst possible fix there could be

[@needy3535]

@@_Anaklysmos_ you literally BRING EMERGENT GAMEPLAY INTO THE SERVERS AND THEY WANT US GONE?! NO ONE CARES ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF LANDING FEES AND HOW IT BRINGS THE COMMUNITY TOGETHER!

[@SwedishLatino]

SC was almost always skill based. Now not as much.

[@RedlinePush]

​@@_Anaklysmos_ It seems to me that there are often times that there are no available players that have put in the weekly training to "get gud" This way, dedicated PvPers can still do their thing by flying in 2s or 3s, but 1 single ship will have a harder time locking down an entire station.

[@Splincir]

Yeah, i will say i am not a fan of the current state of 3.23, but i have assumed this was a problem. The whole no shields while traveling at high speeds thing is so dumb. My issues were confirmed in testing. A group of mantis had locked down crusader the other day, and there wasn't a damn thing anyone could do. I got pulled out of quantum at least 5 times the other day and was dead within 3 seconds. That's super fun gameplay right there. (Sarcasm) This is the same issue I've discussed over and over. The game design and goals are at odds with one another. Either we are playing battlefield or some crappy rust in space, or we are playing a space sim. The sim and the battllefield experience do not work together. You can't have the death of a spaceman and have death occur so easily. If death is happening 5 to 10 times every 2 hour play session, you're simply playing a respawn shooter with worse mechanics. I mean, if they want to go that route thats fine, then remove the pain in the butt features that punish death and make it fun and forget the sim and all the other bs and just focus on fun. Im sorry, but this game is DOA if the typical game session is, "spend an hour prepping, then dying the second you make your first jump." Rinse and repeat. The majority of players do not have the time nor will have this patience for that kind of loop. I think we see the positive reaction for MM because most people have only tested it against AI. I think there is also just short sightedness against the big picture. It's a big change where there hasnt been for years, and people are just desperate for improvement. There's more to say, but I'll end my rant for now.

[@basicallybroke672]

lil baby man lil lil baby man oh no not my shields that wont matter when im a million miles away lil baby man

[@Splincir]

@basicallybroke672 peak star citizen commenter right here. Low IQ, zero constructive feedback, and nothing added to the conversation. Probably a mantis owner who's happy they can finally get some use out of it trolling the verse. Same guy who will be whining on Spectrum like a small child when the game changes again. The shields are the least of my concerns at this point and are just one of many things that don't even make sense in the verse or from a gameplay perspective. Try harder.

[@Revster]

So when you get interdicted in Nav mode now you’re essentially a free kill? That’s actually broken

[@HitmannDDD]

Truth. We have WAY too much thruster power for the SCM speeds. It needs to take significantly more time to go from 0-100%+ SCM so managing your energy state is more involved. There is WAY too much linear difference between fighter archtypes. There needs to be overlap between classes on some flight characteristics so heavier fighters have options in dogfights. Interceptors need to trade acceleration for top speed instead of manuverability for top speed so they can't dictate the engagement 100% of the time. I think repeaters need a much higher DPS than cannons, but only be able to apply DPS at short ranges to avoid cannon meta. I think we need a limited form of constant capacitor regen to offset the pot shots (for shields) at long distance, and to foster trigger discipline (burst firing) rather than unloading the mag. Personally I think they need to reconsider balistic shield penetration and balancing solely on ammo capacity. It's a binary, you either have enough and balistics are superior or you don't and they're inferior. It's not a suitable drawback for balancing.

[@Avenger__One]

Snare pulls out ppl from quantum, dampened stops them from exceeding afterburner speeds

[@FaireFionwe]

Even now it is very hard to dodge incoming fire. How is making it even harder making the game more fun?

[@HitmannDDD]

@FaireFionwe you should not be able to "dodge" incoming fire, nor will you be able to with projectile speeds where they are. The point is to avoid the firing cone. If you find yourself in the firing cone, you should engage in evasive maneuvers to exit the firing cone and/or effective range, not dodge projectiles. That's silly. You would need unbelievably slow projectiles. If you want cinematic space planes, you need to tamp down the lateral thrust. WW2 in space and full 6dof are mutually exclusive concepts.

[@crispy9175]

​@@HitmannDDDall really good points Hitman. I've been saying that mastermodes shouldn't be a mode change on your ship, it should be based on speed. Changing "modes" should just be engaging/disengaging the speed limiter. Afterburner shouldn't give you a big top speed boost, it should give you acceleration boost (and normal acceleration should be turned away down). I completely agree that we go from 0 to 100% waaaaay too fast.

[@xXGCB38Xx]

All not bad ideas. Maybe post on Spectrum?

[@AKARazorback]

Player "I love master modes" CIG "Thank you for your valuable feedback" Player "Master modes isn't ready, its not good". CIG "You need to test it more before giving feedback"

[@Warsheep2k6]

from what i listened to though is that cigs representative was baffled about AVG1s view when they had a crossinterview with space tomato. their perception is that vanguards go into backstrafe and kill everything smaller then them while its quite the opposite, because they have such a large amount of data and only so many outlayers of even average to good players (dedicated to fighting) there is still a lot to be done especially in the higher echelon of dedicated pilots

[@AKARazorback]

@Warsheep2k6 they're baffled because they don't understand their own mechanics and systems and test for the lowest common denominators

[@Warsheep2k6]

@@AKARazorback yeah thats probably the case ... they already said that this needs to be balanced so that we dont end up with a new interceptor meta(which will be coming) coming from a light fighter meta and hornet meta and honestly they should stop catering to some community idiots and just pump the game full of the tech they have at hand from sq42 and handle the issues later the community will cry either way involving and listening to the community from day one after the vote to go ham probably delayed the game too

[@tanx0r]

While testing EPTU flying my Cutlass by myself I was engaged by a lone interceptor while in atmosphere. There is really nothing you can do in that situation. Many many people playing mainly PVE stuff will lose interest in the game and that's a crying shame. CIG are playing with fire here.

[@sYd6point7]

With the cutlass go VTOL and use the vertical thrust in decoupled mode to your advantage. It can be messy till you get the hang of it. Once you are used to it, though, you can use the vrol to compete with the drift/turn rate of those pesky fighters. ❤

[@AlexeiX1]

you couldn't run away? That doesn't really make sense. Its a lot easier to do that now.

[@catfunt5583]

Thinking more about the problem, they probably need to reduce the max acceleration down to like 4/5gs. If you can accelerate to max speed in

[@nobullshita8993]

Yeah swarm of fighters are an even worse nightmare now. Ships like the size of the Corsair or tali will never ever stand a chance anymore.

[@photogasm5]

Why are you talking like the game in its current state is the way the game will always be from now on?

[@nobullshita8993]

@@photogasm5 Im not, just saying how it is right now. The game will surely get better and better updates, 75% of 3.23 were spot on fixes.

[@thomasbouvier3203]

To be fair i played solo pirate swarm and i felt like corsair could hold against pve. That said, against players you are screwed. But i felt it was easier. Canon meta i two or tri shot any small switching from one to another etc. Even standing still most of the time.

[@strawberry-parfait3922]

Yeah this really needs fixing, a Hammerhead should be able to EASELY defend itself against 10+ Fighters minimum in order to fulfill its role as a Corvette. It should also not have Rhino Repeaters as the default loadout but the long range Flak canons with proximity explosive rounds. Maybe they could add passive Role bonus effects to ships like in EvE Online where certain ship classes have different stats that influence the performance, like a " x % Bonus to accuracy and range of Size 4 Weapons." on Corvettes for example. Would make it easier to balance stuff without influencing all ships across the board.

[@Citizen-Nurseman]

I appreciate you guys doing the testing to find the meta, to improve MMs

[@echo5827]

What if they give turrets more range than any pilot controlled weapon, like they should have

[@astellios1748]

but also projectil velocity.

[@goldenspartacus1937]

Bro that literally how its supposed to be but the devs think "Oh lets not make meta = all ship weapon sizes have same range" LOL. Irdris railgun is i think size 10 and its range can fire at a planet from orbit.

[@jonesdaevilone]

As a new player this is just frustrating. I really want to aggressively get better at ship combat (chasing the old ED dragon) but knowing most of the ship combat is going to be thrown on its head at a moment's notice makes me want to just wait for master modes and then jump in

[@Alopen-xb1rb]

This. After all this time the flight model should be mostly nailed down by now. I’ll have to spend my time in something else for 3.23. A1 has done his part to bring this to Yogi’s attention. CIG needs to address these imbalances faster

[@scribblescrabble3185]

Where do you get Singe cannons from except from a Banu Defender? I tried Strifes once, wasn't a good feeling.

[@morningTCG]

been waiting for this video like if it was gameshark in 1999

[@jakefoley9539]

That's a hell of a reference

[@kthekode6732]

Dude, much appreciation for putting these videos out and for all the help you offer the community. I’ve learned so much from the education you constantly provide and watching your stream. Again, can’t thank you enough. Always looking forward to your content. 🙏🏼

[@GlowingSpamraam]

The simple reality is the issue with the hammerhead/turrets is not damage rate of fire, tracking or player skill/accuracy its a simple issue of range/speed The hammerheads turrets could do 1/10th of their current damage, but if they had 6000m range hitscan speed they would be a 6 km no fly zone for fighters because the second you get inside 6 km you just start slowly dying the old old tachyon cannons would unironically be amazing for turrets, because hitscan means you can apply consistent damage. turrets, of any kind, currently cannot apply damage, either due to range, or projectile speed, or both.

[@willydapooh9712]

All i heard was, a solo McHawk, with ballistic scatterguns is meta. 🙃

[@Zero118]

I've been enjoying hawk scattergun on npc ships at least haha.

[@geronimo5537]

Whoa whoa I feel lost without our pink avenger leading us. Finally got some good lighting!

[@mobius6772]

Good info Avenger. Do we have to turn a option on to see the direction a ship is facing when targeted? All I have is a red box and pip.

[@raven9ine]

I'd like to know that too. IMHO the new pip/target UI design is quite bad, it's overcomplicated shapes and size clutter the view needlessly. I guess the designers never heard "less is often more". With smaller ships, usually you can't even see the ship because of the pip and marker, yet it still fails to give viable information.

[@Warsheep2k6]

i think your MFD shows you the relative position of the target to you

[@mdiego3847]

Thanks for the heads up. Looks like I have to prioritize finding an org even more now.

[@pauloalmeida4492]

CIG is making a big mistake. The Interceptor role should not be associated with lighter ships, on the contrary, it should be with the heaviest fighters in the game. Higher top speed, quicker master mode cooldowns but poor maneuverability due to weight. This would make it a lot easier to balance things.

[@subklueless]

That first fight is some bomber bar tactics

[@towercgaming7891]

This was a good video. Thank you! One question - what happened to the lag pib? Is it still in the game? If so, how can I get it back as an option? Sorry, if this is a very noob question.

[@GenuineHeather]

Question: For short engagements, would ballistic cannons give a significant advantage? Or are ammo pools still too small even for a one-off?

[@scienz0220]

Why couldn't the hammerhead land shots on the mantis? Is the mantis too fast, or does it stay outside the effective range of the hammerhead weapons? In other words, what capability does the hammerhead lack

[@Avenger__One]

It stayed at 10 km outside of missle and laser range

[@syscall9574]

Which flight model do you prefer for the PU? 3.22 Live or 3.23 EPTU MM?

[@SplenShepard]

Would that Hammerhead fight have played out differently if it camped out in low atmo? Just curious if it still has a niche in ground target defense.

[@D-rizzy31]

Nice I made a feature lol It was an honor to be apart of the proof of concept.

[@williamlewis1805]

It’s such an obvious issue that a solo player can’t avoid damage, and now can’t run when dampened, that it blows my mind CIG is even considered this model even slightly good

[@sc_cintara]

Am I right in interpreting your recommendation "Go with a friend" as really meaning: "Make sure there are more of you than there are of them"? Assuming we all fly Interceptors, is it just the group with the largest total DPS that wins? Will we all just bunch up in the largest orgs and fly around in hordes?

[@Bennisim66]

That's how i read it and from my experience playing MM. You need a wing man more than ever, but honestly in the first example shown here they just fought better in the bucs. Didnt' seem the mkII were organized and focus targeting?

[@sc_cintara]

@@Bennisim66 The problem for the mk2:s is that they are speed-walled, so the Bucs scatter into a cloud around the mk2:s, select a target, then all fly in against that target, take it out, then scatter again. Since the mk2:s are speed-walled, the game engine literally doesn't permit them to get at the Bucs. They could temporarily try boosting to give chase and take out a Buc, but boost is a quickly depleted resource and the targeted Buc can always counter-boost making it relatively faster than the boosting mk2:s again, while spending all of the mk2:s boost at the cost of one Buc's boost.

[@Warsheep2k6]

@@sc_cintara also straight lining the mk2 making them easier targets for the rest of the cloud

[@sc_cintara]

@@Warsheep2k6 Yes, that straight-lining of the mk2:s is another effect that arises from the speed-wall. You could also say carelessness, but really, what can they do if they can't even try to chase the interceptors?

[@jacob-mz9cv]

Hey I'm hoping to get a question answered, outside of the buccaneer, are seeing any viability with classic fighters like the blade/arrow?

[@Avenger__One]

yes, right up until you fight any 2x interceptors

[@jacob-mz9cv]

@@Avenger__One awesome, here's hoping they do some sooner rather than later speed tweeks.

[@DaGhostToast]

Would love to see your pov in one of the hornets in that first engagement

[@helloitsjay38]

What about stealth though? Are hornet ghosts still only detectable at short ranges?

[@vexingrabbit1824]

Hornet ghost and other stealth fighter like the Talon limits the detection range of other player's radar. So you may sneak by however their isn't really a "stealth" anything as radar picks up anything around your spacecraft. Still though you may get the first punch in onto a player if your fast enough. Honestly I think the 360 radar is kind of weird as radar from the rear should have blind spots, after all by put radar all around the craft when the engines and thrusters are in the way and burning infront of the radar.

[@Nosferatu_BE]

We'll just have to wait what they make of it in the long run, personally I'm more interested in the fleet combat meta. I'm assuming capital ships will receive massive cannons with longer ranges and fully automated point defence guns as a deterrent for missiles and small fighters. Not to mention the repair/support mechanics and armour implementations of carriers and dedicated ships etc. There's probably going to be a rock/paper/scissors balance in the end, it's just that not everything is in the game yet. However the Hammerhead should probably receive an upgrade, judging from the clip, as it is marketed as a fighter screen for the fleet in the first place. Actually, the best solution will probably be a weapon balance pass, coupled with speed tuning and iterations. It seems more realistic bigger guns would just have larger ranges, speeds and damage output and/or more area saturation. Nevertheless naval ship composition has always been important in real life fleets as well, so it most certainly will play a role in the end game combat.

[@GoogleIsEvilNow]

What if they reduced the range of the quantum dampeners to have to be within firing range of all but the scatter guns firing range?

[@ikigai1886]

How do you mount your trackir thing on your headset? Because for me the clip it has is to small.

[@scienz0220]

You might have to custom modify your headset band with tape or foam or something, to make the area where you want to place the clip. If that does not work you cam get a difference device on the brim of a baseball hat

[@Casperdghost618]

Mount it on the extended part of your headset

[@Avenger__One]

I gorilla taped it

[@cprn.]

There's easy solution. Make multicrew ships what they'd really be in that scenario. Fucking shielded tanks with auto turrets that 100% ot the time hit their target regardless of target's "evasive manoeuvres" or "skill". Make them only susceptible to equally powerful large ships or big pirate gangs (e.g. 3x the amount of turrets meaning turrets take damage before they're able to take down all of the attackers). And for extra gameplay loop, add heists. You slingshot a guy to EVA onto that cargo ship, take a blowtorch to those plates, find the shield generator and blow it up. Or locate a turret, find power supply, disable, rinse, repeat. Or maybe said guy could open a hatch and silently get into the ship? After hacking some alarm. Or not so silently if he fails to hack it. Or maybe he'd be able to silently trigger the small `emergency_cargo_jettison.sh` subroutine. Or again - not so silently. Because gameplay. Tons of it! Or maybe you could lure such big ship into some kind of a trap. Or maybe you fly like three fighters one behind the other and when shields on the first one got depleted, you switch places, until you're close enough to bomb the shit out of that cargo bay. All of that makes more sense than few fighter ships taking it down. They should retire dogfighting long time ago - it doesn't work, it never will.

[@Shanex250]

This is so dumb. You trying to turn the ships into skilless EVE? That's not an easy solution, that's a solution that doesn't benefit anybody. Auto turrets that don't miss? Who tf would want that? It's bad enough the bunker turrets barely miss, maneuvering and cover is the only defense, who tf would want that for every ship in the game? Removing skill doesn't make the game more balanced.

[@cprn.]

@@Shanex250 Who the fuck would want what? A piece of tech that we already have? That can be built on an Arduino board? The real question is: who the fuck thinks we won't have even better solutions for auto aiming in the future? Making it at least what we have in bunkers, although those are highly imprecise and slow even for today's standards, would still be better than now. You don't know the definition of skill, my friend. Knowing when and how to use a superior tech, is a skill. You're talking about piloting an aircraft (as in: a plane), but somehow you want it to be applicable to space. That's not a skill, that's a fantasy. Soon all means of locomotion will be automated and unmanned but you want human pilots trading lives based on individual skills, the opposite of where the humanity is going right now. And yet SC tries to "carry on the torch" of dogfights. Only it doesn't work and never will, because there's no reason for such behavior to exist in the world of SC. Same way there's no reason to get on a big multicrew ship when you know it can be taken down by a few fighters. Nobody would man such vessel. Zero volunteers. Same goes for cargo - no company would go into that business in SC's paper mache cargo ships because the base of hauling industry is the guarantee that each freight will reach its destination at least 99.9% of the time. Why? Because each time it doesn't, they have to pay for it and cover their losses. Why? Because, again, who'd insure such freight? I don't give a fuck about your "skill" or your "balanced" - frankly, I really really don't want SC to be "balanced". All I care is immersion and that's dictated by believability of the game's world. Dogfighting in futuristic space is not believable. World being fair and "balanced" is not believable. Big ships being next to unstoppable by small fighters, is.

[@Shanex250]

@cprn. your definition of making a big ship unstoppable is half dumb as shit though. Nothing wrong with them being tanky with overwhelming firepower, but to put that on top of auto aim? That's not skill chief, That's just using mechanics. Dogfighting capability will always be a thing and will always exist. SC isn't as bad as you make it out to be and the game is unfinished, we are just getting MM in and we haven't even had the full rebalanced put in nor the armor rework. You suggesting a game changing solution that isn't even necessary. And I'm sorry but most of the complaints is literally a skill issue, people blaming new game mechanics for their losses when they haven't fully learned it.

[@cprn.]

@@Shanex250 Here's the thing. It's not game changing. It's a very small aspect of the game that isn't even important to most players. Maybe 10% of backers right now want space combat to be what it is, mostly you-tubers with pricy stick setups (and I have nothing against them, I do stream sometimes myself and I have a stick setup, I'm just saying they're very vocal about it so it seems like a lot of people wants this - according to Spectrum, not so many). Okay, maybe I'm going overboard with 100% hitting turrets (I want big ships to be stoppable by equally big force, not by few puny dots on the radar), but tell me this - we do have automatic defence systems in bunkers... So why not on ships? The answer is: because it'd make the life of pirates too hard. But putting those artificial restrictions in just to "force" dogfighting on players is not a way to make the game fun. It doesn't work and it's being resisted by the community for a reason. I'm a fan of this natural gameplay where you immerse yourself in the game's world to the point you think about doing something that'd work in real life and get amazed because it fucking worked! And it encourages you to experiment and discover new things, like e.g. I found out in 3.23 that equipping a Mustang Delta with a weaker (and at the same time emitting less EM and IR) power plant, makes it virtually undetectable from more than 2km away and almost totally immune to IR and EM following missiles (with the downside of having to disable shields and guns to fly out of a hangar because thrusters need extra power for coupling and gravity compensation). If I had the old gimbals back I'd easily jump bigger fighters with it because I could unload my whole burst and take away their guns or engines before they see me. Unfortunately with new gimbals it's not for me. Imagine finding something like that yourself, e.g. finding out that throwing a grenade on a cargo hatch blows it open (because we don't have C4, I'd totally try that with C4). Or finding a way to dominate and basically tame (maybe even sell?) them dog-like kopions because you killed the alpha, or something like that. Or imagine that in a version of SC that *has* auto-turrets on big haulers, you came up with a sensible tactic to use the "noise" countermeasures to take at least one of them down? Those are truly unforgettable moments that I'd love to have more in game. Flying a ship and shooting at each other, not so much. It's boring for me. If I wanted dogfighting, I'd play a WW2 planes game.

[@revengexmoon2087]

What guns and missiles do you reccoment for mining and trade?

[@Avenger__One]

EM size 1 Taskforce

[@RYCOPZ]

I get you and appreciate what you're saying. As far as numbers go I don't see much difference from before though. Competent and coordinated pilots in superior numbers have been able to have their way for years. I'd love to see you guys dig harder into the mechanics by, say, taking down Hammerheads with single interceptors. Or maybe see what1-2 skilled pilots with meta setups can do against a random group. Say a Reclaimer with an escort or two. I'd love to see that.

[@connorbennett1517]

I don't really engage in metta chasing, but it is good to know what the metta is.

[@tek_soup]

Do you do any upgrades? engines power plant weapons?

[@ESC_907]

Are your tests considering possible biases? Did you make sure to cycle members of each “team” for these tests?

[@Avenger__One]

Yes, and like I said we have run many tests, the results when pilot skills are equalized is very clearly in the buccaneers favor

[@TUROCK320]

@@Avenger__One i knew it ... interceptor DCS for ever ! Boom & Zoom IL sturmovik tacticool

[@il2csichannel298]

Someone must be really naive to believe in unbiased opinions. Even science is biased nowadays.

[@TUROCK320]

@@il2csichannel298 Of course but it is better thant stay ignorant. In 1 or 2 month the opinion will be more accurate :) (Never perfect)

[@il2csichannel298]

@@TUROCK320 Changing my mind is not happening.

[@Kastell8]

Really good info, appreciate the dedication to figuring it all out. If you could add what each ship had as weapon loadout be awesome. Edit: in the buccaneers Vs mk2s . Assuming all laser cannons but be good to know

[@WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot_YT]

For the first scenario, what did you do when the hornets decided to disengage into nav mode to avoid the dives? I'm hoping you tested for that because in a real world scenario I don't think people would just sit in SCM the entire time if they realized they can just be dived with impunity. At that point the strategy would change, at least if the defending side had a single brain cell to spare.

[@Justin-qh4po]

Thank you for this content saves me a hella time trying to figure out these game changes!

[@tcunero]

Overall i like the master mode idea. Obviously combat tweeks can be done after. Its good to identify all these things here so they can be addressed.

[@dillonfox7433]

What is the advantage of the cannons over the repeaters?

[@LtKrumbz]

at 11:17, how do you zoom in? Mine only half-way zooms and its rather annoying as it feels like a dynamic camera and makes you lose sight of your HUD systems.

[@Citizen-Nurseman]

what this says to me is that missile need some more love to make you need to actually physically avoid them, that could interrupt those interceptor mass dives and perhaps the interceptors need a capacitor nerf a tiny bit, but I'm not sure on that perhaps the interceptors need an extra fast NAV transition, but their top speed out of nav being brought more towards the hornet?

[@FaireFionwe]

That would just make everyone unable to dodge fire at all. Which is more fair, but not more fun. It just turns all fights to straight DPS races.

[@lostmic]

Well what about duel seat ships instead of two fighters does that help your chances in winning?

[@Avenger__One]

still a loseing fight unfortunetly

[@sSobek]

Is there a reason you shouldn’t use laser repeaters over cannons if they both have the same DPS and speed? For example, the Omninskys have the same stats as the NDB laser repeaters.

[@ParaquatSC]

Dampening clearly needs to have a max size, that accumulates with other allies. Because a mantis blocking a massive Qdrive alone is weird. Perhaps it should delay it alone, and perhaps two or more are needed to fully block it from spooling a larger sized qdrive

[@Wh1terider]

That's old school Boom and Zoom tactics. It's simply playing to your advantages. Just as it is in real life, speed equals life. You're trading speed for maneuverability, so you simply have to be aware of how much you can afford to lose based on the scenario.

[@tripsquared_greenworks]

Hey Avenger, I bought the TrackIR 5 w/Pro Clip over the Tobi, after seeing you use it so well. Have you posted your settings on Star Citizen when it comes to the Track IR? I struggle with setting all that up, so I haven't used it. Just collecting dust for the past 2 months. If you can point me in the right direction, I'd greatly appreciate it.

[@user-xs6xq1eb2b]

tobii is better

[@tripsquared_greenworks]

@@user-xs6xq1eb2b I just bought the Tobii, and you are so right.

[@astellios1748]

We can fix it when bigger sized weapons also mean more range power projectile speed, every size3 weapon should outperform any size2.

[@NavarroCol]

A balance for multi-crew turrets could be more reach than fighter?

[@pmaura]

curios as to what would think would help out with the range and speed issue

[@happygreg]

@avenger Who wins between 1vs1 2vs2 or 5vs5 on Origin 325a vs Hornet MK2? 325a has Buccaneer speed profile so shouldn't it win?

[@pucas37]

Can you further explain why exactly the cannons are the best now? Does it have to do with the combo of projectile speed and alpha? Comparing the Lightstrike III laser cannon to Attrition-3 Laser repeater. Thanks and decent content cover!

[@sYd6point7]

Range.

[@Ticoriko]

@Avenger are you sure all we have to do is raise scm speeds by like 100 or 150 mps ? Or dow we NEED more fixes than that. Cuz to me it seems your saying with a simple TINY speed boost we find a middle ground and if that's the case I truly don't understand why CIG won't at least TRY

[@schlagzahne6741]

They could also make the interceptors glass cannons like they should be, where coordinated counter fire is a viable tactic

[@123Andersonev]

once they start to add trade offs on roll rate, pitch, yaw for certain set conditions it should start to loosen it up a bit, also air density penalties with altitude and mass etc in atmo, the higher the DPS capability the more sluggish you should be and they should design the classes around that.

[@Brian-us2xz]

Question about the hornet test, I am assuming no-missles, also I noticed the Hornets seemed to be a bit uncoordinated, did they have a plan/experience flying together in those types of fights? (IE pull a page of a disney movie and skate in a flying V in an offical hockey game and not be completely destroyed by adequate defense and a non-comtoase goalie?) Not that it would have changed things much I will admit, but like with any confrontation with cancer, isn't there anything they could do?

[@Vorm17]

I'd swear one of the biggest issues is gun ranges for the slower speed of the ships. We need ranges decreased to make turrets even remotely viable. The other thing is I believe is ship death times seem a little fast. Interceptors need the inherent weakness of being low armored to trade for speed, where as those hornets really should be quite a bit more. No matter what CIG has options for balance and I trust they will try a few things, I just hope they don't take forever to implement changes and see how they go.

[@KumoKenka]

Nice! good job too all Pilots who do this for us all!!

[@KumoKenka]

cig should speak more with you!

[@mripwntheworld]

Which cannons are the best to run? or does it depend on the ships you are fighting?

[@voxdeus]

he specified in the video but i guess you didnt watch it

[@mripwntheworld]

@@voxdeus He does not say which cannons are the best ones. If he does then tell me where.

[@lagweezle]

@@mripwntheworld It seemed to me that he strongly favored Omniskys.

[@voxdeus]

@@mripwntheworldjesus christ dude here is the time stamp ffs. 17:50 . he actually says it in the video what are the best , but i guress youre just too lazy to watch , i hope you arent this lazy at life

[@albamuth]

1. The "egg shaped" thrust asymmetry needs to get much narrower and pointy-er so pilots need to actually change heading to effectively change their velocity vector. (except for maybe special ships with highly vectored thrust like the Fury). 2. The bigger the guns, the longer the range and higher the velocities of the projectiles should be, so a Hammerhead's cone of fire and accuracy is much greater than the fighters attacking it. 3. The smaller the platform (less mass), the less accurate the platform - meaning that because small ships are vibrating and are affected by recoil more, their guns' firing cone should be wider. A size 7 gun on a tiny ship like an Ion or Inferno is nerfed by this accuracy loss, forcing it to close the distance to a target, and the same should be true for interceptor ships.

[@catfunt5583]

This is exactly why I’ve been a big supporter of giving medium/heavy fighters better top speeds, but worse acceleration. Similar to how it works in WW2 sims. Big twin prop fighters held their top speed better, but had worse manuever and acceleration. Interceptors could out accelerate them but had to wait for them to make a mistake

[@ILL-HOLIDAY]

Looking at DPS Calculator, comparing the FL-33 Laser Cannon vs Attrition 3 Laser Repeater, the Attrition 3 outperforms in almost every catagory. Attrition 3 Burst DPS (844), Fire Rate (250rpm), Alpha DMG Min/Max (145), Ammo Speed (1000mps), Ammo Range (2600m). The FL-33 performs less at Burst DPS (506), Fire Rate (350rpm), Alpha DMG Min/Max (121), Ammo Speed (1800mps), Ammo Range (2592m). If you had to choose between the two, would you still choose the Cannon or go with Attritions?

[@HitmannDDD]

Your effective range with those attritions is far less than the FL33 due to the velocity being so low. You need to get real close to apply that synthetic full DPS number. It's easier to apply a much greater portion of cannon DPS, at a far greater range.

[@andrewkok3467]

An excellent video BUT is the flight model to core problem? Could the balance be moved by tuning the individual ship DPS and HP/REGEN, could better balance be achieved through other systems like heat, missiles and counter measures that promote target lock being broken? All too often aggression is favoured over strategy. Simply nerfing the Buccaneer DPS and increase TTK in general might help.

[@SMUK89274]

Does the Antares still require a 2nd person to push the QED button?

[@Avenger__One]

Yes

[@SMUK89274]

@@Avenger__One haha god damnit lol why do they insist on a whole player being needed to just push a button. They didn't do it with the cutty blue

[@sweepist]

@@SMUK89274 Don't let my boss hear you say that phrase ... they'll give me more work -_-

[@schlagzahne6741]

​@@SMUK89274 likely because the cutty blue doesn't quite brawl or fight as well as a scorpius due to being all fat and chunky

[@SMUK89274]

@@schlagzahne6741 Have you tried the Cutty in MM? It's not bad at all, surprisingly mobile lol

[@The_Lunatic_Toad]

can we have another test against an HH with rails or omnis, as per your advice, and see how it changes the fight?

[@Faneus101]

Maybe reducing damage per hit with the distance can force fighters to get closer to a hh ?

[@mas0ny149]

Is this fun? I'll be honest it looks like a real awful meta. As the person being kited u literally can not do anything and are helpless and that feeling of helplessness isn't really a fun one... This doesn't look like a good direction for the game, do you have any suggestions to help alleviate the core issue? I know from another open world pvp game there was a weapon that had the ability to engage or disengage at will (It had 2 mobility skills vs most other weapons which had 1) but it suffered from low damage and could be caught with good cooldown management (if u cancelled one if the mobility skills or the user didn't get enough distance with it) but I don't know how that could apply for star citizen

[@cober9495]

While I agree that multicrew ships are still in a bad place, neither of the two people we saw in the hammerhead (the pilot and bounty target) were members of Vanguard

[@JagHiroshi]

"This isn't about Master Modes" *Basically chews out current MM tunings* 😂

[@SurvivorToHero]

Short term fix but what if cannons had a shorter range and hold to charge fire state and repeaters had an increased range?

[@Pope_Shizzle]

What's the difference between going to NAV in MM and just trichording away at 1200 m/s in LIVE? At least these fights are resulting in ships dying and not an hour of trichording where a 5 on 5 might result in 1 dude dying.

[@curveofsound]

The difference is that going to nav mode takes 3 seconds and you lose all shields.

[@dabumad]

Yes but let’s say I’m in a msr and engaged by 3 hornets and I need to get away… I switch to nav mode and lose my shields, in my book a bigger ship should be able to tank those 3sec before I get way. You saying that’s not possible?

[@raven9ine]

Because in PU not every fight needs to end in destruction. That's why the initial idea of MM works for AC, but is misplaced in the PU where you need to consider players woth other focuses than PvP ship combat. Which I suppose is why the made switch times lower now, and possibly also because long mode switch times make traveling an absolute chore.

[@lagweezle]

@@raven9ine I'm one of those weirdo players that usually does industrial things, or some bunker runs, or when I've got a real itch to push limits I'll go do some PvE bounties. The moment they announced MM my thought was largely that they were screwing everyone but PvP players. I tried my best and kept waiting to hear how it would all make sense. Then CIG announced in video that NAV mode means no countermeasures of any kind, and no defenses, as well as a time to swap over where you become even MORE vulnerable, AND that you'd need to be in SCM to scan, mine, salvage, or, y'know, actually do anything. It get so much worse when you realize that in current Live, mining often means a lot of moderate distance traveling while constantly scanning to find a rock worth caring about, then getting close and breaking it up and gathering, then moving to the next. Mining is going to be punishing with how often a pilot will need to swap modes and submodes to have the slightest chance of being efficient with time. That's completely ignoring any effect this has on how an industrial ship will fare in combat with the changes.

[@sirtaron]

Interceptors have become the best ships for boom and zoom tactics. I remember when I played aces high the P51 mustangs would circle above the fight then suddenly dive on a plane that wasn't paying attention and hit the plane then speed away. The very same tactic that you are using.

[@Marlax-101]

Im more curious about the hornets comms during the bucc fight. my first 3 thoughts with this matchup while looking at wiki stats for the fighters really is that is it possible ballistics could cut through the buccs shields faster and cripple them out of the fight on trades, the buccs could be weaker verses anti air ships like the hammerhead. if the buccs have faster speeds and slower turning radius and are splitting up after rushing a target it would seem better if the hornets could stay closer together and pick off the bucks as they come in to dive bomb one target, then they would not be able to stay as one group after they fly by the hornets and the hornets would have a short numbers advantage potentially. last thing i can see tho it may not be up to date because i dont keep up with all the info is on wiki it says the bucc has half as much fuel as the hornets, so in a fleet battle the hornets dont need to engage the buccs, just keep distance and stick with their bigger fleet ships until the buccs run out of fuel. then the hornets could chase down the buccs or have short openings where they could attack without the buccs on the field potentially.

[@Warsheep2k6]

what about larger engagements, like multiple fighters of multiple classes and maybe an andromeda in the mix as an "anchor", like having cutty blues, hornets and bucs ditching it, out would that change the outcome? i mean if you can straight line a buc infront of constellation i think its instantly vaporized, i mostly see you using static combat scenarios, like fighters vs HH or interceptors vs fighters what if everything in the mix if the interceptors activeley stop you from disengaging, isnt that a thing to be considered or is it just "pull out x amount of ceptors and pick up target group X 1by1" like peeling an onion

[@riaanaucamp1472]

This is all great. I love these videos. HOWEVER........ Most of us play Star Citizen where we have to do bounties and fight between astroids or in atmosphere in the dark. These strats will get you killed in seconds as you smash into a rock or the ground... Need to see a vid showing how to effectively do those kind of missions at higher levels.

[@splurg123]

Ah, ground, my nemesis. TBF though ground/asteroids are a threat no matter what strategy you pick.

[@de5pa1r34]

Bait post? If you're a breathing human with a pulse you shouldn't be hitting non moving objects lmao

[@riaanaucamp1472]

@@de5pa1r34 OK champ. Did you read what I said? That using the tactics in this video will get you killed vs Rocks and ground environments... Not that you can't avoid it. I was asking for a realistic video to combat HRT and up bounties in the new flight model.

[@papa_andy4497]

Yeah anyone who doesn’t pay attention to their surroundings will get killed by these. Any competent pilot will easily be able to avoid those obstacles.

[@de5pa1r34]

@@riaanaucamp1472 what tactics would make you run into rocks lol? You can simply fly away on a vector that doesn't have a rock 💀💀

[@zacharypump5910]

Thank you for putting in so much time to do this research and help us folks that are a little more casual and understanding all the consequences of a patch like this, you are a godsend! Forgive my ignorance here, but does a Gladius count as an interceptor? I’m extremely vain and will only fly a ship. I find somewhat attractive, even if it’s not perfect meta :) what else counts as an interceptor ? Also, you mentioned Omni canons, are the other kinds of laser cannons not good? FR-something ?

[@RD-qn4gt]

Also the down side to the new combat system is the new "Overly saturated RED" markings that clutter the target and you can not make out your lock on target. They got to change that for sure!!!

[@CecilIsANerd]

we need to be able to flair/chaff when in flt mode.. then I'll be fairly happy with mm

[@RexAnothership]

The solution for the fight model is not MM. It's simple, Use the blackout mechanic properly. This affects the pilot not the ship, so ship performance matters in regards to mass to thrust ratio but G force and G lock will limit how ships interact as ships can't engage if the pilot is unconscious. At high velocity kiters will be greatly inhibited in regards to manoeuvrability and thus will fly flat. At low velocity ships will be more manoeuvrable to do high G (7-12 G) manoeuvres for short bursts. Higher than 12 -13 G's not velocity is the problem. Large ships with gravity generators should be immune to this but their low mass to thrust ratio already limits them to kiting. The only thing CIG would need to add to the game is better pilot to control controls for the Velocity and G limiter. Pilot set button controlled presets would replace MM and allow pilots to adjust them to the ship and flight style for pushing the limit or comfort and control. It would be easy for CIG to tweak a couple of variables to globally affect all pilots in ships without gravity generators to bring about the game play they desire.

[@TheNeo2k]

benefits of trackir vs eyetracker?

[@pritonce6562]

The interdiction part is not significantly different to live (except that ships die quicker) In 3.22 the Mantis can kite you just as well as in 3.23 and prevent you from jumping out. A group of attackers against one defender that gets interdicted will win in 3.22 and 3.23 If anything in 3.23 the Mantis will die more easily if alone. Since the Mantis has been made more fragile in 3.23 compared to 3.22.

[@terry7342]

You had a better chance of getting away from the mantis in 322. Dampening now restricts you from reaching Nav speeds. Fly safe out there.

[@pritonce6562]

@@terry7342 Not really. A Mantis with 20km would keep on you very reliably. And since the balance pass on the Mantis is not completed yet I figure that it will only become easier to escape the Mantis going forward.

[@terry7342]

@@pritonce6562 To some degree yes. But now it is worse if you get dampened.

[@raven9ine]

Here's an idea, what if the Mantis can make a 20km interdiction bubble, but only a 5km dampening bubble, so the Mantis must activiley pilot to keep you there. Sure that is rather unrealistic, why would you get pulled out of QT at 20km but could engage QT within that range? But honestly, with MM we've already made a big leap away from 'realism' anyway.

[@pritonce6562]

@@raven9ine that is already the case. Just with 12km Dampening. CIG can only reduce it further by implementing cooldowns for example but there is probably no time for that in 3.23.0

[@jodofe4879]

I love how after years of A1 shitting on the Buccaneer, it is meta now.

[@Dext3r09]

I played 3.23 long enought to said this: it's different but it's not bad as 3.18 - which I saw couple times ppl said this: 3.23 is as bad as 3.18. It's not bad, it introduce a lot differences.