The .338/8.6 Conspiracy Takes a Weird Turn....

[@EagleRun23]

eaglerun23.com/blog/f/faq-86-blackout

[@1bobharvey]

Whats your opinion of barrel length vs SD? I see Q really likes the short barrels for sub guns in 8.6 with their 8" for a dedicated sub gun and 12" being the tweener for kinda running both... It would make sense to me the shorter your barrel the less opportunity for velocity to deviate and being shorter you would get a lot less poi shift with and without a can on... I want to say I watched someone's video with a short 8.6 and they were getting single digit SD's of like a foot or 2 in velocity with what they were shooting which surprised me. figured you may have tested the same ammos in multiple lengths from the same manufacturer and twist.

[@EagleRun23]

@@1bobharvey 8-12 is all ya need.

[@1bobharvey]

@EagleRun23 is there any appreciable velocity gain going from 12 to 16 with supers? Or is about the only draw the lack of atf permission 🤔. I have a fix and have been considering getting a 8.6 barrel for it. But, can't decide on barrel length. Probably would run supers more than subs but not afraid of a tax stamp and the shorter the barrel the better for packing around imo.

[@candtdesignsandarms9617]

Thanks for sharing all the dope on the 8.6 loadings brother!!

[@EagleRun23]

You bet

[@bakid470]

342 gr from gorilla made mince meat out of a mature whitetail for me this year. Lungs and liver were not identifiable on a slightly quartering to shot from 50 yards. Bullet was under the offside hide and had opened up beautifully. The coolest part was that the bullet hitting the deer was the loudest thing about it.

[@ShadowAviator]

Maybe you mentioned this and I missed it, but what was your velocity on that ammo you tested in the 1 in 3 barrel? Hornady has to consider the extremes. That bullet may hold together at 900 or 1000 fps, but what about 1075, 1100, or 1200 fps (there are times when the bullet may be fired a little faster than the speed of sound). Additionally, you have to cosider failure rates. For example, let's say only 1 bullet out of every 1000 come apart. That would be a major issue, but you may not know until you have shot 1000 rounds. Hornady probably doesn't want to risk even 1 in 1,000,000 coming apart. To be clear, I'm not saying it would or wouldn't hold together, I am just speculating on what Hornady may have been thinking. You could keep increasing velocity and see at what point the bullet comes apart. That would be an interesting test, and would tell you how much safety margin you have.

[@EagleRun23]

way more testing would be required, ball is rolling :) I am just left with speculation too, haha

[@jrca1406]

Thanks for the touch up on the ARC’s twist potential… that test was EXACTLY what I was looking for! Blk 1:3 will soon have an ARC 1:5 brother. Don’t worry, I won’t try it at home - maybe the backyard though.

[@EagleRun23]

the 1-8 makes me less interested in ARC. spectre is 1-5 and i love it.

[@timp788]

My understanding is that the twist rate is there for subsonics because most expanding rounds have difficulty doing so at lower velocities and it also has some benefit as far as energy transferred to target. The problem with bullets coming apart is mostly for the supersonic rounds since the speed at which the round spins is effected by its velocity as it gets spun by the barrel. For simple math, an oblect going through a 9" long 1:3 twist rate barrel moving at 3 inches per second would have 60 rpm, but if it instead traversed the entire barrel in a second would have 180 rpm. Scale up for actual bullet velocities. A subsonic round

[@tanggang6824]

I love these new standard ar platform rounds, gonna build a 338 arc soon. I love being able to just swap my upper and slap my thermal on.

[@fattigla]

My understanding is that Hornady went with the slower twist rate because they had cup and core bullets coming apart in the supersonic velocity ranges, with 1:3 twist, and didn't want to be limited to monolithic bullets for supersonic loadings. I would have to watch hornady's video again, I may have misunderstood.

[@EagleRun23]

ya, thats the point of the video. thats what we were told, but it might not be true!

[@fattigla]

@EagleRun23 sorry I missed it. If it was stated in the video, what velocity were you shooting in the test?

[@PeteMiller]

Kevin B. was on the M.A.C. channel 6 days ago; he emphatically stated the 8.6 WILL be resubmitted to SAAMI in 2025 and it’ll be approved this time!

[@EagleRun23]

@@PeteMiller yes. Saw that. I believe the submission was July 2024

[@PeteMiller]

@ That was the original. Kevin was talking 6 days ago about the 2025 re-submit. Based on what I saw and heard…I do think the 8.6 will gain SAAMI approval.

[@bry2k]

Oh my! Well, if KEVIN says it, you can take it the bank. lolz.

[@PeteMiller]

@ My take was that HE was going to do the work necessary to get the 8.6BLK spec passed by SAAMI. If it happens great…if not, I still have plenty of ammo and a great SBR that meets my needs.

[@jacobowl1]

I’m sold on the gorilla 342s for hunting and I’m not sure 338 arc has enough case capacity to fit that torpedo lol. I’m going to stick with 8.6 as I’m already heavily invested in Edit: great video as always!

[@EagleReloads]

Thank ya sir. I am NOT fired up about ARC the 1-8 twist doesn’t do it for me. I am still sticking with 86. 86 gang!!

[@BMD2024]

X2 on the heavily invested part, Built on an AR-10 platform. I'm not leaving the caliber now for sure and still baffled at why Hornady did what they did.

[@Halal_Dan]

If you wanna go as heavy as possible, 375 does it better

[@jacobowl1]

@@Halal_Dan if the goal was heavy I’d probably do 458 socom. Leigh defense makes a 570gn fracturing sub. I looked into 375 raptor but 8.6 already had more support. I’m happy with my decision

[@EagleRun23]

375 has problems too mags are one and its kinda bolt action only.

[@AlexMackensen-x7j]

I would speculate that the answer resides in the centripetal forces at various RPM rates. Subsonic in 1:8 would be a revolution and a half per foot, making 1,050fps around equal to 94,500RPM. Supersonic in 1:3 would be 4 revolutions per foot, making 2,000fps around equal to 480,000RPM... sure, Subsonic 1:3 might be safe at 252,000RPM, but Supersonic 1:3 could certainly exceed centripetal force limits of a 0.169" radius projectile

[@tomquirin4231]

brotha nick i am old n love the good ole 220 swift n the .22/.250 to knock all down > total shock n awe , great vid n content there as always , always learning from you , THANK YOU once again n talk soon > tom !

[@tomquirin4231]

thanks bro's , oldschool ways yes indeed , keep em coming , talk soon > tom !

[@benjaminbagley4168]

I think it’s pretty simple. Hornady developed the 338 in like 2018 for a government entity of some sort. It got shelved. They had so much success from the 6 and 22 arc. So they pulled it off the shelf. On the podcast where they talked about it they said 338 arc was the first of the arc family that was developed. 6 and 22 came later.

[@EagleRun23]

@@benjaminbagley4168 I listened to that. Whole thing is weird. Btw I made this video the day before that podcast came out. Bad or maybe good timing.

[@bry2k]

@@EagleRun23 You just gotta make more videos more often! 😁 I like your videos and your style and appreciate it when you slow things down and get into the weeds.

[@erictodd9567]

I'm actually fooling around with a cool little surprise for the industry when it comes to 8.6blk. Doing testing and maybe just maybe get the pricing down on ammo for the round hopefully given another year we'll have it to market.

[@EagleRun23]

ill help you however if you need it!

[@TeensierPython]

Believe it when I see it. Good luck to you though.

[@chrisfields8077]

You need to consider all loadings and barrel lengths for a commercial offerings. Theyve been clear the 1-8 settled out as the best twist rate overall for it.

[@EagleRun23]

@@chrisfields8077 I have 338 spectre in a 1-5. It’s phenomenal. I have blackout in 1-3 and 1-5. Both can be good enough on accuracy and are phenomenal at killing hogs 1-8 is a nothing burger. No magic. If you wanna do ARC order a custom 1-5 twist barrel I guess.

[@DKsupreme69420]

I for one am excited to see hybrid case supersonic 8.6. Its already quite compelling for 300blk

[@spysweeper]

That’s great if we could get more bullets stable for 8.6 blackout! I would be cautious though because Im sure for subsonic velocities at short distances with less flight time is one reason why it holds-if you go at distance, the bullet longer in flight at a very fast spin rate may not hold so it would be interesting if you have tested the same load stretched out.

[@EagleRun23]

More tests coming!

[@ravissary79]

Hey Eaglerun23! If you haven't seen it, Kevin from Q just did a LONG, serious, less 💩 talk type interview with the Military Arms Channel. In it he explains that part of his problem with the ARC is that Hornady seems to be playing dumb now on their paat collaboration with Q. That originally they had made a subx for Q and Q supplied then with test guns, all in persuit of testing hornady 8.6 subx loads. Kevin says it right in the interview, the 8.6 was perfectly safe at 1:3 twist with a subx bullet. The problem with the 8.6 was that the 1:3 was catastrophic with cheap supersonics, not subs. Instead its more that theres no real benefit to 1:3 on subx. MAYBE it expands better? 🤷‍♂️ but the subx isn't suppsed to expand large. It goes deep by doing a sort of nose flattening "controlled expansion", and then going straight and deep, almost like a revolver hardcast. The copper expanders are just better. I was personally d9 wxcited for Hornady to be involved with 8.6 back in 2016 because i wanted cheap reliable hunting subs. But the subx just doesn't perform as dramatically as I'd hoped. Ive seen the prices on new 338 arc ammo too... its NOT CHEAP. only a couple dollars a box less than 8 6. In midwayusa, an early review also says it keyholed for him with a barrel using the listed twist. 1:8 is juat too slow... 1:6.5" would have been the reasonable choice.

[@mannequinfukr]

I just want to say this about you mentioning 338 arc or 8.6 ammo not being cheap Welcome to the world of .338. Nothing is really cheap everything I've seen (except hornady interlock) is at least $1 a pop

[@sentdex]

You think Gorilla is going to put out something subsonic heavier than the 342? What makes you say that? Do you mean something like in the 350s to edge out makers or closer to 400? My only complaint with gorilla is with a round like this you gotta be using a ballistic calc. Even just 10 yds can often be as much as 3-4", so you're definitely running a ballistic calc, and even just little stuff like BC I had to source from reddit rather than the official site which is silly. Some values I just guessed until calcs matched known dope. Anyone shooting this round needs this info. It should be on the box, or at worst on the website. I admit I haven't called them though, maybe that'd get the info. Still, shouldn't need to do that. Otherwise, the 342 has so far been pretty reliable off the shelf, can confirm it works great on deer. I've had 2 LPS in about 150 rds which I don't like and can't decide if that's Q's fault or Gorilla's. Seen Q has had issues with LPS in the past, but it was not a 1-2% rate type thing, more like a 30-50%, so I am inclined to think probably ammo, but tough to say rn. Haven't run any ammo at scale other than 342s. Once hunting season is over here I'll go back to tinkering.

[@EagleRun23]

@@sentdex I kept tabs on gorilla early on but I have not gotten in the 342. BC is vital gotta know your ammo is consistent too. Any thing over 200y is a questionable shot in my opinion.

[@sentdex]

​@@EagleRun23 just to be clear, I meant 350s and 400s as grains, not yards. Are you thinking beyond 200yds is questionable accuracy-wise or velocity-wise or both? I have the sense the round is capable out to 300yds, so this shooter is limited to 200.

[@joeldas1659]

On the "Hornady Podcast," lead ballistician Jayden Quinlan mentioned that most handloaders would use cast bullets because they are more cost-effective. He explained that a 1:3 twist rate would cause cast bullets to "shotgun" out of the muzzle, while a 1:8 twist would be "safe enough" for cast bullets while being stable enough for jacketed and monolithic bullets. I would love to see more testing conducted on twist rates, similar to the findings with the 300 BLK, where a 1:5 twist was optimal for both subsonic and supersonic loads compared to a 1:7 twist.

[@EagleRun23]

We are pretty set on 1-3. and yes no cast bullets.

[@zach7086]

The 8.6 can shoot cup and core only subsonically. It’s supersonically that will rip it apart. Now, does barrel length dictate how fast the bullet gets twisting? That may affect what I just said

[@calebschwanke3871]

338 Arc for subs, 338 federal for supers. 8.6 blk is just ok at both

[@Maxx_Rockatansky]

Agreed

[@lucastonoli3256]

.338 arc supers are very near to 7.62x39 and it works on the AR-15. If the mags don't end up sucking balls (there are companies working on it), it might be a very strong contender.

[@Maxx_Rockatansky]

@ Sounds like 300BO with extra steps and more money…

[@lucastonoli3256]

@@Maxx_Rockatansky What extra steps?

[@payne540]

I couldn’t agree more. I think .338 Federal is criminally slept on. I don’t really know how it feeds in standard magazines, but it can generate significantly more energy than most .308 loads at reasonable hunting distances, like 400 yards and in. And for subsonic hunters, obviously .338 ARC has much more power than .300 BLK

[@amdenis]

IT DOES NOT WORK RELIABLY- 2 out of 31 broke apart out of my gun at 1:3.

[@EagleRun23]

@@amdenis you shot sub X bullets? Did you pull them from arc like we did?

[@amdenis]

@@EagleRun23 Got from Midway.

[@randyreviewsit]

Ammo choice is important on these which is why i wouldn’t use hornady or gorilla. I say discreet ballistics is where it’s at.

[@brianbonenberger8054]

I got a wildcat very similar to the spectre but mines based on the SPC case and it used a 6.5T barrel. I can rub subs and supers out to 1900fps with 200gn bullets. 180s will gain you 100fps or so. 300gn accubonds and SMKs run really well. The 6.5T is plenty stabilization for this wildcat.

[@AverageGunPerson]

I wonder how the new powders will do in 338 ARC. Maybe we could end up fitting 320~gr bullets

[@EagleRun23]

we know nothing yet, but reloaders ALWAYS find out, hahaha

[@kevinbordeaux4831]

I feel like this is going to be a decent sub sonic offering but I chose 8.6 BO because it has a real super sonic potential. And for elk, I like the 210s @2200fps But I’ve killed 2 with that 298 sub also The 12” makes an awesome brush gun Also. I buy am my bullets for reloading from gorilla since they sell the 298grain expanding solid copper bullets. Designed for that crazy 1:3

[@R-xt9bf]

I'm rolling with 8.6 Blackout

[@someguyintheroom1401]

Supposedly Hornady didn't endorse the 1/3 twist because the safety issues concerning inconsistent pressure spikes (Why people are blowing up 8.6 BLK guns for no apparent reason).

[@timtimtimmay4654]

Big thing is how it performs in the field. If it hits at 500k rpms, I can imagine the performance of the lead bullet itself would be difficult to predict. It may very well come apart with a lot of spalling inside the game, making harvesting more "fun" than it should be. I just can't see lead holding up when it hits. Now if it does, wow. It would be destructive with the weird trajectories on impact.

[@EagleRun23]

pigs love it out at my place, ha

[@BMD2024]

Agree......Why Hornady pulled out and went the " ARC" direction is strange, much more since it looks like it will possibly perform through a 1:3.

[@EagleRun23]

@@BMD2024 big red doing big red things.

[@lucastonoli3256]

You really, REALLY, don't want to rely on a 1:3 twist rate to have a gun that performs well on the entire range of possible bullet selections. It has drawbacks

[@shawncampbell3191]

I drank te Hornady koolaid and am going straight to .338 arc not stopping or passing go! That being said I'm a big Q fan so I see 8.6 in the future as a build.

[@EagleRun23]

Arc is fine, it will be available if you dont reload. but no twist beyond stability, kinda a bummer.

[@shawncampbell3191]

I reload and cast my own so the twist is not that big of a concern. The type of lead I’ll throw the slower twist would be more advantageous. Love the videos. keep up the good work.

[@randymagnum143]

1:3 is awesome, but you have to use purpose built bullets for supers. Or you *will* poof bullets. Then you won't have baffle strikes, you will saw them in half.

[@EagleRun23]

thats what we tested... these didnt come a part like we figured.

[@kevinbordeaux4831]

I feel like this is going to be a decent sub sonic offering but I chose 8.6 BO because it has a real super sonic potential. And for elk, I like the 210s @2200fps But I’ve killed 2 with that 298 sub also The 12” makes an awesome brush gun

[@bobbyw4pd]

Kevin B said in an interview recently that he shot some 315 gr subx bullets in 8.6 and it made a good hunting bullet.

[@bobbyw4pd]

I believe Hornadys reluctance was probably based on the fact that most of their 338 bulllets wouldn’t be viable at supersonic velocities in the 8.6.

[@EagleRun23]

ya, that came out the day after I filmed this! haha

[@toddabrams7696]

i definitely could be wrong but i believe you are conflating two different issues that hornady had with the 1 in 3 twist rate 1. supersonic loadings may have the bullet rip apart which could destroy suppressors or injure the shooter/bystanders if a muzzle brake is installed 2. you dont want a hunting bullet to open up instantly when it hits game. hornady's hunting bullets are designed to travel a few inches before expanding rapidly and increasing the twist rate beyond what the bullet was designed for (1 in 8 for the 307gr subx) might cause the bullet to open up too fast inside of game and not reach the vitals

[@Helfirearms]

You nailed it👍 and people want to point the finger at hornady because they are on the SAAMI board but most major manufacturers have members on the SAAMI. This is primarily because the purpose of SAAMI is the insure that all manufactures of rifles and ammunition can safely manufacture their items without having to worry about things coming apart. With 8.6 SuperSonics you have to use super tough or monolithic projectiles and with expanding projectiles, nothing on the market is designed to be opened as violently as that 1:3 does. As much as KB likes to market the rotational energy it actually plays very little part in the efficacy of the shot as it is really only make the projectile expand quicker (which can be a bad thing as you mentioned)

[@jonathanlogan6647]

So i dont think the many issue was the bullet with the 1x3 twist. I think it was some inherent issues with 8.6. The main ones being the velocity consistency issues with subs and the overspin issue with the supers. Subsonic is slow enough I'm yet to blow up a bullet with it being subsonic. Now with supers I've had issues and almost always have to use solids unless i load it down a ways. I think hornady picked the 1×8 twist not because of subsonic problems but supersonic problems. As for why they want to focuse one supers i dont know. Both rounds really are subsonic focused and nethier are really going to preform great at range. Every time i would try with my 8.6 it just left feeling like any of my other guns would be better.

[@hunteranglin3750]

I would say it's because the fact that there are way more 1-8 twist barrel blanks out there

[@EagleRun23]

naw, no one has a problem getting .338 fast twist, all the custom guys have access

[@omairchughtai3675]

The 8.6 Blk can use cup and core bullets for subsonic just fine. At around 1100 fps in a 1:3 twist the RPM is 264,000, which is fine for most cup and core bullets. The reason Hornady doesn't want to get involved in 8.6 BLK is that if you ran that bullet through a 1:3 twist at say 1400 fps, now you're at 340,000 RPM, which is not 100% safe. You have very little operating margin. So for a company like hornady to mass produce this cartridge for subsonic use in a 1:3 twist, they have to now make barrel length specific cartridges, put warnings everywhere saying absolutely do not use this cartridge in a certain barrel length...etc. Its a massive liability. They could of course just run monolithic like everyone else but that's not the point, wildcat cartridges are boutique, and Hornady adopts cartridges that can be cost optimized and mass produced. They're not going to spend millions on equipment to manufacture cartridges that might turn into grenades if used incorrectly. Hence the 1:5 twist.

[@EagleRun23]

I hear you and dont disagree, but there is more to this story and the deal with H and Q. Hornady also chickend out on the 1:8 twist for their ARC.

[@AverageGunPerson]

Hornady does make already make 35-40gr bullets that frag when shot through a 1:7" twist 223 barrel. Hornady makes(ed) 8.6 blk sub-x bullets. That doesnt negate your point, but i think that's just them chickening out. It is clearly a reloaders caliber, even if it gets saami specd and decently mainstream. A 450gr sub-x leaves the same case capacity as ARC/Spectre. And I'm not sure it'd be an easy mistake to get those up to 1400rpm or what have you. They snubbed the 338 spectre, and you need to seek out a specific twist barrel to use its 125-300gr copper range. They explained nothing about why they went 1:8" over the spectre's 1:6.5" and i don't think there is a good reason, A 1:6" twist barrel doesn't hit 300K RPM until 2500fps. And is there anything in particular behind hornady's 300K rpm remarks? And we are seeing companies start to ignore the saami spec. Mos-tek & robinson firearms are already looking at 1:5" twist barrels. Anyone in the know is balking. If hornady used the spectre twist rate we could have had two simple market segments based on twist. I have to agree with the statement by Kb that this is a lazy cartridge. This doesn't mean the 338 ARC won't be useful, especially with a faster twist. Basically it's got a hard cap & each big advancements will have less of an impact compared to 8.6 BLK. 8.6 has a high supersonic ceiling, untapped wounding vector, and expansion of weights that can be used. The best ARC can hope for is: 1) more super light bullets, like the unlisted 125-140gr weights or even lighter. 2) advancements to subsonic bullet design. This will be important than weight 3) the birth of a 1:3" sub-market should it be shown be to be worthwhile.

[@4x4le]

I will have to look into the ARC to see if it can handle the lower twist rate. I spoke to barrel manufacturers when i wanted a 338 razorback or spectra and the excuse I was given is the 1:3 causes too much pressure for the primers.

[@EagleRun23]

yes, we checked for round primers, all good, no pressure signs, and they held together. need to test 100's more and do some at distance, not sure if there is a way for me to accomplish that in a reasonable time. doube hornady will be sending me projectiles.

[@LGB-FJB]

Why would barrel twist rate affect a primer?

[@firearmsfuelfabrication]

Kevin actually said himself (they were 315 gr though) hornady sub x were good to go. Probably has more to do with being subsonic. I know super cup & core bullets don't play well with 1:3. I've even had issues with 300blk supers 110gr cup&core with 1:5

[@EagleRun23]

the sub x is "technically" cup core, but they ran and we suppressed them off camera

[@firearmsfuelfabrication]

@EagleRun23 I should have clarified that better seems like subsonic due to the lower rpm and lower velocity the cup/core bullets work better. It is when you go supersonic that seems to be where they start tearing themselves apart.

[@jmc041071]

I've heard that the .338 ARC is a more efficient cartridge because the case is better suited for the powder capacity. They said there is to much room left in the 8.6 blk case so it is not as efficient. Now, I'm not leaning one way or the other. I'm just trying to gather what information I can. So I would like to hear what you think about this one case being more efficient than the other.

[@EagleRun23]

Hornady definitely claimed that, its not untrue, its just not entirely accurate or the whole story? Spectre case is ideal, and 8.6 has a bit too much but thats fixable with the bigger projos.

[@jmc041071]

I don't know anything about the Spectre, but I plan on learning! I want to learn all I can so I'll follow you.

[@bigracer3867]

Hope 338 arc comes out soon🎉🎉. Although I still love my 8.6🎉🎉

[@EagleRun23]

@@bigracer3867 my barrel will be here in a few weeks.

[@bart9324]

Are any of these actually just the good old SSK Industries 338 Whisper, like the 300Blk is? That was a great round.

[@payne540]

I really wish all of those SSK reamers were being made available for custom barrel builds. I was a little too young and poor to be able to order anything from SSK when it was still JD Jones’ business, and I’m very disappointed that nobody has offered some of his classics yet. I want a fast twist .50 Alaskan 750 Encore barrel so bad!

[@danorcutt-oc6ns]

Commenting on your Hornady bullets not failing, cup and core bullets don’t always blow into a million pieces but they sure do it at a really opportune time

[@EagleRun23]

@@danorcutt-oc6ns also 6 shots is not conclusive data.

[@danorcutt-oc6ns]

@ agreed

[@CactusLegzz]

Interesting.

[@TDA14]

Which twist rate has better accuracy for 8.6 supers at ranges of around 200-400 yards - the 1:3 or 1:5?

[@EagleRun23]

1-3 is the way

[@TDA14]

@ What kind of accuracy are you getting out of supers at that range with the 1:3?

[@Maxx_Rockatansky]

WHAT WERE THE VELOCITIES?

[@lelenbates3367]

It what I was looking for too. Shooting at a generic unspecified subsonic footems out of a 1:3 worked, at what velocity does structural failure occur? Subsonic starts at zero ft/sec and ends around 1125 at sea level, that is a huge windows of mystery. Saying don't handload which I have been doing safely for 34 years without a single blown primer rubs me the wrong way. Then saying Hornady should take risks on the very same round. One loading does not make a test. The rifle barrels you are using are very short and most shooters don't have NFA tax stamped SBRs so that same round shot out of an 18+" barrel is going to be possibly 50 - 300 ft/sec faster. Variables is what funds the lawyers.

[@bry2k]

@@lelenbates3367 Nope, others have demonstrated that longer barrels with subsonic 338 projectiles has resulted in slower velocities. One guy even showed a bona fide squib right here on YT when he fired an 8.6 sub through a 16" barrel (I believe it was Gorilla ammo). The friction of the fast twist starts to shed a lot of energy very quickly beyond a certain point, which is why the 8.6 loads thus far have been carefully targeted towards specific barrel lengths.

[@TrollinCrazyRussian]

Test 1:3 longer range it might need more time (range) to come apart like how some 5.56 1:9 69 gr look stabilized, but at range they start tumbling. Also the group size is abysmal before they start tumbling.

[@EagleRun23]

so far I have seen it shotgun, immediately come apart

[@kurtlingenfelser4499]

The expense to me for 338 black out does not justify the means, as I have a 16.5 inch suppressed 45/70. Ammo is roughly the same but I can get 45/70 subs and supers in several different stores around me.

[@EagleRun23]

thats the thing, if you have something, 100% keep it use it run it. no need to change unless you had a different need. in 5 years 86 will be on the shelves.

[@kurtlingenfelser4499]

@EagleRun23 Also, did y'all do any testing with the 338 subx shooting that round with 1/3 twist above 1100 fps, I think that is the biggest reason Hornady stayed away from 1/3 twist. Just a thought on my end.

[@okist5986]

How about terminal ballistics? The SubX is known to not expand in the 300 BLK. I expect similar from the 338.

[@EagleRun23]

yes, way less than you are used to seeing with the makers, etc. but the 1:3 twist is a magic trick for sure on terminal ballistics

[@okist5986]

@@EagleRun23 I would think that you first need expansion for the "magic" to work. You won't get that buzz saw affect that transfers that rotational energy if the petals don't fold out.

[@neilmurphy4301]

Why can’t you get a 1 in 3 in the spectre? They’re all the same bullets

[@familyoregon6804]

Where can I find useable ballistic charts for 8.6 BLK sub & sup? I want to see the drop for hunt-ability with it. What is the realistic best 6” zero out of each resulting in longest distance at what for the zeroing? So if I zero at 167yds (for example) will the bullet last out to what max distance before dropping 3” (never traveling over 3” above that zeroing)? I’m not looking to punch paper. I am looking to hunt and keep it with a 6” range without needing to adjust

[@EagleRun23]

@@familyoregon6804 I use the app

[@familyoregon6804]

@@EagleRun23which app more specifically? As one who does not load/reload ammo, I found several which require more knowledge than a novice/non-reloader possesses.

[@bry2k]

But where is that unicorn 400 grain bullet that Kevin's been talking about in the context of the case capacity issues with 8.6 blackout. Is anyone making such a bullet? Or, alternatively, where is the special powder blend that fills the 8.6 case with a 285 or 300 grain bullet? The problem I have with 8.6 has simply been that the cartridge as a whole has seemed to be a flawed compromise in every variant that is offered, and "Q" Kevin's response in his lame videos, and in a much more articulate interview he did on the Military Arms channel, is that the solution is a 400 grain bullet or a special mix of powder that solves the case capacity issues. But this has been unobtanium, has it not? If anyone would know, it would be you. Looking forward to you talking about this! 😁

[@EagleRun23]

I held one one time, were still a few developments away.

[@bry2k]

@@EagleRun23 You held a Unicorn and let it go???? 🦄Man, what were you thinkin'? 😅 Well anyway, get a box of twenty 400 grain 1050fps 8.6's on your show and plink them at 1 MOA and tell us they're manufacturing them faster than we can pop popcorn, and I'll finally make up my mind about an 8.6 build. Until then, I'm on the sidelines. I don't love the 1:8 twist spec on 338 ARC, but neither am I in love with the slightly risky and inconsistent behaviors of 1:3 8.6 + the case capacity and accuracy issues that I've seen (particularly on the subs).

[@AB1138-]

He said the powders were coming this year, idk about the subs

[@Mclovin_2015]

About (ish) what speed were those running at? I'm assuming they were subs but I'd be curious to see how fast you can push them until they dust

[@EagleRun23]

its a sub designed bullet, super def wouldnt work, but i am sure there is a limit! haha they chrono-ed earlier at 1055 or 1065 i dont recall.

[@e.l.robbins5614]

Kevin @ Q said the sub X bullets holds up in the 8.6 in a video. Check it out do not take my word for it. I wish you had ballistic gel when you shot the sub X bullets

[@EagleRun23]

I heard that too, Halworx also talked to kevin on the topic. WAY more testing we shot 6 total, thats not science :)

[@Normjohanson]

I want a .50 straight wall auto rim for suppression in ar-15 designed for cast or plated bullets.

[@Kycirion]

It's called .50 Beowulf. Been around for nearly 25 years.

[@firearmsfuelfabrication]

I'm not excited for anything marked arc. I was burned by 6.5 grendel too many times in an AR platform with mag and feeding issues. So anything grendel based is a hard pass for me. It might fit in an ar. Doesn't mean it's right.

[@CraigBrosRacing]

THEY DIDN'T HAVE A PROBLEM With 8.6....THEY HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ME IN AND HIM CALLING THEM ALL LAZY AND CROOKS...FACTS...they hate that he said that it's a shame that gun companies now have to make ammo ....

[@EagleRun23]

@@CraigBrosRacing is this response to something I said? Not sure what you mean here.

[@CraigBrosRacing]

LOL 🤣... wasn't meant that you had a problem with Q,Kev or anyone my friend.. sorry that it came off that way... HORNADY has the problem well actually one dude just happens he has some say so there and he ooooozes distain towards the round/Kevin in their videos about this round they want to push us instead of 8.6 that wasn't his idea and you can tell it's kept him up at night....kinda dude that has a picture of Kev with crosshairs on it above his sun visor in his way to big of a truck .... LMAO 🤣😂

[@CraigBrosRacing]

Love this channel keep up the informative content brother..👍🇺🇸

[@allthingsconsidered3211]

barnes sells a flat base 160gr ttsx

[@shaunharvey1112]

I’m running a 10.5 sbr 1/6.5 with 300 makers over lilgun sub moa sd’s 4.5 @100yds and quieter than 300 blk ever thought of being coming out of a omega 36m can’t wait till alternative season and hogs down at the house in Texas

[@EagleReloads]

Excellent brother! Ok I am writing down your loads. I’ll try em.

[@shaunharvey1112]

@ I’m running 9.8 grains lilgun 2.25 oal my own primer compound Sbr brass I’m going to grab a pound of 4227 was told it’s the best temp stable single base powder lilgun in the most temp sensitive powder ever made I’ve been to by numerous 338 spectre reloaders

[@Roberto_14M]

I will not give up on the 8.6, way too invested and am really liking all the offerings and loads. I am going to try and build a 338 arc tho, seems interesting

[@EagleRun23]

arc with the 1-8 doesnt do much for me.

[@Roberto_14M]

@@EagleRun23 spoke with mos-tek (per yer reco) and they said they will build a 1:5. sounds good to me after yer vid

[@dadada902]

Build a Spectre with a LWRC 6.8 SPC receiver set & Magpul 6.8 Mags.

[@EagleRun23]

Spectre is so cool, love mine!

[@chrisfisher3900]

At this point I think Hornady is tracking popular wildcats and “developing” them for the consumer market

[@allthingsconsidered3211]

22-250 and 220 switft have 250k rpms and their jackets dont seporate so i find it hard to belive a subx bullet shooting sub will have jacket seporation

[@payne540]

I believe the speed of any given point on the edge of a .338 bullet would be much higher than the corresponding spot on the edge of a .223 bullet at the same rpm, due to the much greater circumference. Maybe that increased speed increases the force enough to be a problem.

[@texpatriot8462]

@@payne540the bearing surface on those small rounds is probably a fraction of what a Subx would have. That might impact reliability.

[@erictodd9567]

Hornaday just wants to push their offering with 338arc. That and Kevin Brittingham talks a little too much shit....just me but I'm sure that maybe had something to do with the 8.6blk Sammi submission getting pulled back by Hornaday. I:3 twist with a just fine doing subsonic loads with a jacketed bullet I've been loading them for a year now without any shotguning happening.

[@EagleRun23]

hey if you dont mind, you can email too, let me know what bullets you have tried... i have shotgunned some spitzers haha been a part of a baffle strike as well, but not on my gun.... wildcatting smh

[@erictodd9567]

@@EagleRun23 NOSLER 338(.338) 300gr Sptzr BULLET AccuBond and NOSLER 338 (.338) 300gr HPBT BULLET CUSTOM

[@erictodd9567]

All out of a 8in barrel though

[@EagleReloads]

@@erictodd9567awesome

[@carbon4201]

I don't understand why hornady developed a 255gr subx for 7.62x39 that doesn't expand

[@EagleRun23]

thats an excellent point!

[@Kycirion]

Because Hornady Sub-X bullets are crap. I've never seen them expand in any tests. Literally ever.

[@bnicedanicest6288]

Business is business of course they want to take the market share and be able to offer their ammunition at a lower price and steer the consumer to their partners in a AR-15 platform which there are probably more owners of that platform than LR-308/AR-10

[@markminer7390]

Conspiracy or conservatively safe??? Bullets coming apart in the barrel are real. I had surgery this year to remove shrapnel from my hand. Factory ammo (.308 Win) came apart in a friends AR-10 and sprayed sideways at the muzzle brake. I had a large piece in my hand and smaller ones in my face. While big red is hedging twist-rate, the release of a cup and core bullet in the existing market where people will push muzzle velocity will have consequences. I'll stick with solids and I'll stick with 8.6 BO.

[@vKILLZ0NEv]

I mean, a sample size of 3 hardly enough to draw any kind of conclusion on. I'd be willing to bet Hornady aims for failure rates in the one-in-thousands.

[@EagleRun23]

100% realistically we proved nothing. I can tell you that we did test more than 6 total and it has been shot with a suppressor. :) ever changing situation. I think we as a community can test too, but I cant tell anyone to do that. you know.

[@ja0298]

I’m surprised you were able to actually find 338 arc ammo. I defiantly want a 338 ARC over a 8.6blk, but I’m on the fence over what I want it in. I love my gen 1 300blk Ruger American, but the new Gen 2s have fluted barrels, and in my experience fluted barrels are a PITA to have cut down and threaded. I’m getting into handgun hunting, and a 12” encore pistol in a 338 arc would be SWEET ( but so would a 6mm arc which honestly performs a lot like the 6.5 & 6mm jdj does just more efficient). Third option is getting an upper for my SBR. So many options, so little money. I need a sugar momma.

[@indicastrain4127]

Why do ppl think a new caliber means they have to "give up" another? So everyone has just one singular caliber in their safe that they're "invested in"? Just buy it or dont 😮‍💨

[@miamoto69]

Yeah, you had 2 similar bullets just happening to sit next to each other by accident. I should believe everything else you say?

[@EagleRun23]

@@miamoto69 because I am a reloader and I reload both.

[@a.joegevara3519]

In my opinion, Hornady $#¡+ on the 8.6, because they were scared to spin their bullets in 1:3 twist barrel. So like they copied the 220 Russian for the 6mm & 22 ARCs, and they copied the 338 swift.

[@jeremyarmstrong7857]

It is about money.....

[@EagleRun23]

@@jeremyarmstrong7857 :)

[@EagleRun23]

@@jeremyarmstrong7857 I would hope so. I’d like them to stay in business.

[@evanvanheukelom6689]

Hornady says nothing good happens over 300k rpm. So we multiply 1050fps.*4 rotations / foot * 60 seconds in a minute = 254,000 rpm. 254k rpm is LESS than 300k rpm What is the problem?

[@EagleRun23]

Big Red things.... hahaha someone from hornady emailed me..... plot thickens....

[@AB1138-]

A 1:6 cant hit 300k rpm till 2500fps which isn't even possible with today's bullets

[@joshfrisby8616]

Don’t forget there is more force on the bullet as diameter of bullet increases. Centrifugal force on the outside of the bullet will be higher on a 338 vs a 300 at same rpm

[@AB1138-]

@joshfrisby8616 i misspoke but the 300K rpm thing doesn't occur until 2500fps what jacketted bullet can even achieve that velocity out the small case capacity available

[@joshfrisby8616]

@@AB1138- I understand. I was just stating that the RPMs will be different on a 300 blackout versus a 338 same twist rate same barrel length. A lot of people just look at twist right and assume it’s across the board.

[@chris_2413]

I think Kevin mentioned on a recent podcast that the sub x would work fine and they already did a bunch of testing with hornady. Also let’s face it hornady wanted their name on the product and lawyers most likely got involved with the twist rate stuff.

[@NBT31]

That sub X bullet is only going about 250,000 rpm from a 1/3 twist. That’s well inside of what most conventional recommendations. Hornady is just worried their lightly constructed bullets will catch them some lawsuits.

[@EagleRun23]

for sure they played it safe. which is understandable

[@MullahSteinberg]

A lot of unhappy 8.6 blackout folks bitching .... good entertainment

[@EagleRun23]

@@MullahSteinberg idk who they are but I am not unhappy in anyway.

[@RipWheelen]

All ballistics aside I wont buy anything 8.6 just out of principal. The video I watched of Kevin talking about why the 338 ARC sucks was filled with whiney misinformation and contradictions. That was the first video I ever saw of him and found out who he was. Seems like a toolbag. So I wont give my money to anything Q or 8.6. However, I love PSA, Hornady and AAC. They will get my money.

[@EagleRun23]

@@RipWheelen I don’t worry about any of that stuff. I like the caliber and I am pro fast twist :)

[@sambenge9140]

Hornady has done this many times, they did the samething with 22 arc, the 22gt was getting ready to be a saami and them bam! They alter and release 22arc. Its a dirty business

[@livingintheLight.]

One thing we all know is that Hornady will just throw random shit out and never make ammo for it

[@matthewsmith2051]

The only reason the 338 ARC exist is Hornady knows the 8.6 blackout is superior they are trying to under cut it and offer it a similar cartridge in a more appealing AR15. My fear is people don’t understand what the fast twist in the 8.6 is actually doing how it makes the bullet penetrate deeper in both subs and supers and yes supers are very underrated you are getting magnum penetration from a short action cartridge

[@EagleRun23]

@@matthewsmith2051 arc can’t they chickened out in the twist. But you right. ;)

[@Fantasma781]

Misinformation on 8.6

[@blueeyeddevil1]

Do not attempt? Ok, I get it, you're erring on the side of YT caution, but there is zero danger to the shooter here. The only thing that may happen is that the bullet will spin apart into fragments OUTSIDE of the barrel/muzzle device, on its way downrange. If you were running a suppressor here or some unwary doofus was standing immediately to the left or right of the muzzle, then the warning would make sense. The reason why Hornady didn't run with 8.6 BLK is because they couldn't make as much money off of it with Q involved as they would coming up with a cartridge (and case) of their own. .338 ARC is proprietary, and Hornady owns the rights. This isn't their first rodeo.

[@EagleRun23]

just being responsible, most of my viewers arent 20 year old stupids, but you know. the only sad part would be a damaged suppressor. at the end of the day, saving 50cents only to ruin a $1500 suppressor isnt cool. ha

[@charleshopkins2571]

Hornady just wanted to kick Q in the balls is what happened. Hornady had their own round coming out, and they didn’t want the 8.6 to take off. They sure did miss out on that.

[@EagleRun23]

@@charleshopkins2571 wonder about that. Is there really animosity? Always more to the story.

[@chuckfinley3152]

The fast twist rate adding to terminal ballistics has been debunked a million times, you only need 1/8 to stabilize the longest 338 bullet.

[@payne540]

1:8 stabilizes those super long bullets while subsonic?

[@chuckfinley3152]

That's what Berger billets states

[@EagleRun23]

you wrong on that, it has in fact NOT been debunked. come on chuck, come to the darks side! hahaha

[@ja0298]

I’m surprised you were able to actually find 338 arc ammo. I defiantly want a 338 ARC over a 8.6blk, but I’m on the fence over what I want it in. I love my gen 1 300blk Ruger American, but the new Gen 2s have fluted barrels, and in my experience fluted barrels are a PITA to have cut down and threaded. I’m getting into handgun hunting, and a 12” encore pistol in a 338 arc would be SWEET ( but so would a 6mm arc which honestly performs a lot like the 6.5 & 6mm jdj does just more efficient). Third option is getting an upper for my SBR. So many options, so little money. I need a sugar momma.

[@EagleRun23]

@@ja0298 arc will be more “popular” if you want to buy ammo at cabellas. That’s the answer. But 86 is the better caliber with the twist and heavier projos

[@ja0298]

@ I reload, so I don’t care about buying ammo at cabellas. I care more about case/cartridge efficiency and 338 ARC sounds like it does that better than the 8.6 blk for what I need to do with it. If companies like Berrys or Everglades get in on plated 338 bullets, which I hope so because who doesn’t want cheaper subs, then the 1:8 or a 1:7 would work better with those than the 1:3 or 1:5. I don’t wanna pay for premium bullets to go have fun on the range. I get the 8.6 has greater case capacity, can seat longer and heavier bullets, and has better supersonic performance. I only care about subs, and I want to reload cheap(er) subs and still have something that has more mass than what my 300blk has for a subsonic hunting. Yes, I know hedging my bets against plated ammo companies coming out with products for a niche round as a reason to get a 338 arc over a 8.6blk.