The Atonement Debate: For Whom Did Christ Die? Part 2

[@josephgoudreau7425]

I'm being kept by faith vs I keep myself saved by faith

[@BeautyandBlessingsWithRyAnn]

Is it not salvation we receive through our faith? Clearly we don’t save ourselves. But if I, (emphasis on the I) have no faith, I can’t be saved. (Saved by grace “Gods gift and love for us” through my faith in God) If God gives us our faith then those who have no faith are at no fault of their own. They were just born with a sin nature and destined for faithlessness.

[@raifbarrett6739]

@@BeautyandBlessingsWithRyAnn They are at fault because it is in their nature to be at fault and to hate the things of God.

[@eddiehill3466]

The faith that God gives, not the faith you think you have.

[@BeautyandBlessingsWithRyAnn]

@@eddiehill3466 so Christian’s are just lucky God gave us faith and those without faith God just didn’t want? Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he was attested to be righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks. So, God just made Abel do that?

[@Thinking-Biblically]

@@BeautyandBlessingsWithRyAnn clearly scripture teaches that faith is a gift from God and clearly not everybody gets it. Have you not read Romans 9 are you going to judge God? It clearly talks about what you're saying for who can resist his will the answer is nobody but they are still guilty for their own unbelief and faithlessness. You either get what you deserve or you get mercy and he gives mercy to whoever he wants and hardens whoever he wants and that doesn't make him bad it makes him sovereign. Maybe you need to ask yourself who are you oh man to answer back to God?!?!

[@louiscorbett3278]

I finally get the Calvinist viewpoint. Praise the Lord!

[@JasonSchmidt-1979]

Praise God from whom all blessings flow!

[@mslisasierra]

Praise God for opening the eyes to your understanding 🙏🏻

[@Dan-qh2fv]

Praise God!

[@Buscando-respuestas]

My eyes were opened too, Calvinism is evil and full of twisting of the Word of God. Praise God!

[@jdubb6557]

Thank you Dr. Brown. Thank you Dr. White. My top 2 favorite apologists for the faith

[@Otic1913]

5 years go, I was a Christian who go drinks and party and so on. Recently I have grown much in faith and the love of Christ. If I watch this 5 years ago, I would agree with Dr. Brown. But now I have grown more knowing my Saviour and his plan for me, I think Dr. White is digging deeper on this topic. I think they're both right. 👍

[@GillAgainsIsland12]

Free will and predestination are logically contradictory.

[@arthurhorne9390]

Vincent Ardizzone how?

[@craigjoyner9857]

Vincent Ardizzone , that’s not accurate.

[@codycampbell27]

The Calvinist perspective, to my understanding, is that those in the fallen state freely choose between what is evil. In a saved state, the gospel of Christ has been revealed to them (the elect) and they irresistibly- and freely choose Christ. This takes into account both free will and predestination logically. “The message of the cross is foolishness to those whom are perishing” -1 Corinthians 1:18 “For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” Romans 8:7-8

[@GillAgainsIsland12]

@@codycampbell27 It's really not about mental understanding of any written religious text. It's about development of the heart, which really means capacity to love as God loves. In all the NDEs I have heard, and I have heard 100s, not one proposed what you are contending. I'm not here to judge you. So, you certainly can believe what you wish. But, in the end, there is no end. There is only the passage of time and events until the soul realizes who It is and is finally able to break free from the shackles of the ego which has kept It trapped in body consciousness for a long, long time. The "End Times" is not the end of time, but the end of the world as we know it, if we are to believe the Book of Revelations, which again, is open to interpretation and not a prophecy cast in stone, since mankind's free will is the deciding issue, although I know most Christians believe it is irrevocable.

[@codycampbell27]

@@GillAgainsIsland12 I’m just responding to the comment that predestination and free will are not logically compatible. I believe they are. I think you are commenting on salvation in general, not really debating the concepts of Calvinism vs. Arminian views on salvation. I agree you don’t have to understand salvation, just as a newborn child doesn’t understand how they were born, the born again also doesn’t understand fully. It’s a mystery that can only be explained by the text we have in scripture. I’m not speaking of near death experiences at all. Salvation comes not from NDE’s but from faith alone. It is true of course that the heart change happens, but I believe it happens from a regenerate heart- “I will give you a heart of flesh” this comes from Gods doing, not our own.

[@equalityandjusticeforall3190]

The idea that faith is the gift of God is entirely inconsistent with the scriptures. Jesus wept for Jerusalem because they didn't know thier savior was among with them yet they still rejected him. Why would Jesus cry for them if he hadn't given them the gift of faith from the beginning. It makes the whole gospel and the love of God in vein. The salvation is by grace alone and God explicitly made it available for every humman being nothing in there to boast about because only to believe in his sons' Work. Rome 3:27

[@logosgaming1987]

Holy crap. “If all babies go to heaven abortion is good.” Okay James White. Okay. 🤦‍♂️

[@equinoxproject2284]

Try to filter out the noise in the tough questions they ask each other and the questions are very similar questions that atheists as Christians.

[@FlyTour69]

By that logic, those that crucified Christ were doing a wonderful thing because through that salvation came for all who believe. Maybe Jospeh’s brothers did a good thing selling him into slavery. God is sovereign and will bring good things out of horrific tragedies.

[@gwine2nine52]

36:00 to 37:06 mic drop Limited atonement God is glorified by sacrificing sinners for himself Unlimited atonement God is glorified by sacrificing himself for all sinners

[@orlandobautista8477]

identity of the elect-[proverbs 8:17] i love them that love me;and those that seek me early shall find me. - Love of God causes belief-

[@valerieserrano4948]

The bottom line for most of the questions being asked by the audience who can't accept God's predestination is that they don't trust God for outcomes. Period. They're trying to over-think the whole thing w/o listening to the clear Word of Scripture. As James says, They are man-centered and not God-centered. Trust God. Whoever is predestined to be saved and whoever is not, so be it. Amen. Stop second-guessing God. As Paul said, Does the pot question the Potter? Stop, and trust Him. It's called Faith. I wonder how many of these people questioning God's predestination of the elect have ever read the Holy Bible cover to cover even once.

[@ChristMyFreedom]

It just doesn't make sense to say that God predestined certain people to be saved and certain people to be damned in the face of John 3:16 for God so loved THE WORLD that He gave is only begotten son that whosoever would believe in Him should not perish but have eternal life. If you say God chose certain people in the beginning to be saved but chose certain others from the beginning to be damned how does that demonstrate love for the world? It doesn't...

[@kenzeier2943]

ChristMyFreedom Jn 6:44 (ALL come who are drawn) Jn 1:13 (by the will of God, this verse sets up how the people of Jn 3:16 come to belief) Acts 2:39 (for ALL whom the Lord God will CALL) Ref? (Jesus said pray that the Lord of the harvest will send laborers to his harvest. --they can’t believe if God won’t send laborers and we know that in history vast continents didn’t hear the gospel. If God wanted all to hear and at least have a chance at salvation then the gospel would have been sent out to a lot more places sooner.)

[@peterbarjona6150]

@@kenzeier2943 The whosoever are the Elect, and have the gift of faith and repentance. JACOB I LOVED ESAU I HATED. GOD KILLED THE WORLD IN A FLOOD. HE DESTROYED SODOM AND GOMORRAH. I FOUND YOU DEAD IN YOU TRESPASSES AND SIN.....THAT'S THE ELECT.....HOW ABOUT PREDESTINATION.

[@anonymousmouse505]

Update pls

[@JungleJargon]

(Salvation is real ...and supernatural. The Spirit of God really does convince us to do what is right! We get none of the glory. Let your utterances be as it were the utterances of God *so that God is glorified in all things*.)

[@filips1218]

Can you imagine the reaction of the Apostle Paul seeing this debate?

[@unclanrhino]

He would sit up abruptly and spit out his coffee

[@billhildebrand5053]

unclanrhino did Paul drink coffee or express.....

[@billhildebrand5053]

Only if coffee is chosen and predestined

[@equinoxproject2284]

I think this is actually exactly how a debate between gospel authors would go.

[@akilliez]

i feel as if i am one of the elect because i know in my heart even if God did not choose me He who is judge of the earth will do right. As to say even if i am condemned for eternity i am well deserving of it. But i thank God the Father for sending His Son Jesus Christ to die for me and all those who come to the knowledge and belief in Him. Christ is the only way repent and believe.

[@leekellettjr441]

Repent? Can you change who you are? Then next is to believe in your repentance that makes you saved. Are you sure people are telling you right. Regards and God bless.

[@akilliez]

@Lee Kellett JR repent and believe in the gospel is straight out of the Bible buddy so I'm sure I was taught right.

[@mjfravel]

I praise God for James White and His ministry & I have been blessed tremendously by Michael browns homosexual work. I believe after reading allot of your comments in general they are harsh and there is no need for this. As Christians brothers we stand side by side in believe in the atonement in Jesus Christ and we should be sharpen each other as iron sharpens iron as we grow in faith in the love of Christ. I don’t understand how there were comments about how Calvinist do not believe bible passages and all kinds of strange comments. Please listen to this; the only reason why I’m a Calvinist is because that’s what the text of the bible has brought me to believe because John 6, Romans 8, Ephesians 1, 1 Corinthians 1 are in the bible. Rather than fight against them, I simply fall at God’s feet and say your are God and I am not and he you choose my before the foundation of the world; I’ll never understand it, I’ll I can say is… That’s amazing Grace!!! & if you don’t believe Jesus personally choose you but just made it possible for you to join the club then that’s up to you

[@craigjoyner9857]

Justin Fravel , so, we should stand side by side in belief, and be iron sharpening iron, while the calvinist deems that some of us may very well be eternal reprobates from the foundation of the world?!? No thanks. Calvinism is a different gospel (that is not good news for all), a different er father (who does not want all men to be saved), and a different son (who doesn’t stone for all mankind).

[@mming_my]

How about other verses that's against limited atonement

[@crystalreddick5255]

27:00 minutes in James wins with Rom 8. Watch the inconsistency afterwards

[@ManlyServant]

James won!

[@Buscando-respuestas]

@@ManlyServantindeed James won, won people to go astray,

[@ruelconlea]

I was waiting for Dr. White and Dr. Brown to make their comment in John 10:15 where Jesus said "... I lay down my life for my sheep" I am not sure if this verse was discussed.

[@catherinevincent4209]

How is two men who have the holy sprit have different view of the gospel

[@punchyhq]

But whats worse? A man in hell looking up to scream " im here because i rejected your call of salvation" or " im here because you NEVER gave me the chance, the call,or because you determined i would be here, not because i chose to be here". ?

[@punchyhq]

They didn't want to submit due to not be predestined to. If he first loved us, the destined ones, does that mean there was a point that he didn't love even us before we were destined? Don't take the love out of God brother.

[@punchyhq]

With all do respect, that doesn't make sense. We fell because we were predestined to. Why are we to blame If it wasn't by our own free will? I believe predestination is sumed up in one word, foreknowledge. God knew who would be the ones who would fully accept him. The ones who killed yeshua are not to blame for the worst sin ever if they were predestined to. My friend put it this way, we are robots doing what we are programed to do and being punished for it and being made to think it's all our fault. When really it's not. Question, are those who don't believe in predestination really saved? If so then why do we not believe (if the Calvin view is correct) in the true will of God? Brother those I can't believe the predestined view as we see presented here. I can't see how God can be fine with a ppl who don't love him out of their own free will to do so. See, free will gives more meaning to those who truly love God. It's means christ didn't die in vain. See predestination takes away from those who desire to follow messiah!! I can't stand before God one day and say yes its my fault for what you programed me to do. Yes all the evil I have committed is because of you programming me to do it. Is that God being just? Or are we in a Devine beings game? No ill answer who willfully choosing messiah and willfully laying down my lustful, worldly desires and willfully praising him because he extended his arms of salvation to a person like me!! And then for him to say we'll done my good and faithful servent, enter in!! And not, well done to me for programming you to be a good and faithful servent, you sure are lucky I decided to include you. Brother no offense but Calvinist turn this into one big charade.

[@ManlyServant]

book of Revelation says those who the name is not in BOOK OF LIFE (that written before the world was) will be cast to lake of fire,get it?,romans 9 says God created some for dishonorable and Destruction,and some for glory and Honor,you are doing strawman,that doesnt make any sense,we are DEAD in our sin,we cant come to God,not even One,stop doing self righteousness

[@ManlyServant]

@MinorSingingAirhead correct sir,you destroys this Arminian

[@anonymousmouse505]

Neither, the man in hell curses God and if he was given a second chance he'd give God the finger

[@Odwa_Mqeke]

Romans 9:15 [15]For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” Romans 9:16 [16]So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

[@ETHANGELIST]

53:36 the face of a man cut off short lol

[@anthonytan7134]

How do you know that you are predestined to be the elect ???????? You can't, unless you know the mind of God or God tells you so.....God bless

[@robinsonparra2102]

What about that jesus said is not the will of God that anyone perish but go to repent

[@PeacefulHeart4ever]

20:00 Dr. Brown responds clearly to the main question. Jesus died for everybody. You have to have faith to be saved. Salvation comes from God through faith. As long as you have faith you can believe you are saved. We should not boast on deeds but we shouldn't also boast in "certainty of salvation" or in "being elected". My thoughts.

[@johnnyllooddte3415]

ahaha i love it when you MIX 5 pointer philosophy into Bible verses.. show me a SINGLE VERSE thats says.. CHRIST ONLY DIED for the elect..there isnt one.. show me a verse that says i only died for my a sheep ...1 John 2:1-2: "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father-Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

[@ClickToPreview]

No one CAN come to me UNLESS the Father draws him, and I (Jesus) WILL raise him up at the LAST DAY. There is ZERO "can believe" in this Scripture. In fact, Jesus states the EXACT OPPOSITE. UNLESS the Father draws someone, they WILL NOT be raised at the Last Day.

[@PeacefulHeart4ever]

@@ClickToPreview How does God DRAW someone? One example is through the Bible. If you HEAR the Word of God you are being drawn to God. If you hear, you CAN choose. Without hearing about God, you cannot believe in Him. "For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

[@PeacefulHeart4ever]

@@johnnyllooddte3415 Sorry maybe I wasn't clear but I agree with you. I don't believe that Jesus died only for some people. I believe that anyone who believes in Jesus and follows Him will be saved and those who believe they are elected, they should not boast about it.

[@paulpano7750]

if your throat tightens and suddenly you feel afraid the way Dr. James White is presenting you the Gospel, it is because you are now hearing the Truth that you need to repent from being a sinner. That deals our idolatry, (we our own god), that it is not about you but God Himself alone on accomplishing His (not yours) redemptive work through our Lord Jesus Christ!

[@craigjoyner9857]

Paul Pano , sounds like theological nonsense. If Calvinism is true, we can’t repent, or believe, or be saved, until god decides to irresistibly do a work of regeneration in me. Why would my throat get tight about waiting on god to do a work in me so I can want to be saved. I’ll just keep waiting and keep sinning, as if god has elected me to be saved, I’ll stop sinning when god decides for me not to continue sinning in rebellion.

[@paulpano7750]

@@craigjoyner9857 theological nonsense? that is hasty generalization sir, how come that it is nonsense, what is your standard sir? Mr. white here is not explaining calvinism but just simple delivering what God has revealed in His document. How do you understand these sir, "No one can come to me unless the father draws him to me"(john6:44) "You are dead in your trespasses and sins"(eph2:1) and numerous statement of truth about humanities inability to choose or believe God due to its deadness in sin. (I’ve stopped sinning when god decides for me not to continue sinning in rebellion. )-This contains truth sir, - Genesis 20:6" Then God said to Abimelech in the dream, “Yes, I know that you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have also kept you from sinning against Me. That is why I did not let you touch her. God is the one who prevents us from sinning, that is why we are growing up in a society made up of authority(conscience, parents,govt) to suppress our full evilness. However, still we are responsible for our actions and we cannot escape the consequences of it. As it has been said: “Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts, as you did in the rebellion.”(heb3:15)

[@ManlyServant]

@@paulpano7750 amen brother go go !

[@TheEngineer19]

@@paulpano7750 the god of jamea white though decreed child raping for his glory ad good pleasure.. James white is not saved

[@TheSoulMechanics]

I'm 5 years late to this debate but a loving God will not predestine that tie Dr. White.

[@jordantheriverman6143]

HAHAHAHAH. Dude, he would love that joke, he wears some wack ties. hahah.

[@truth_merchant7839]

Yes, Dr. White believes in a monster not the Living God😔🙏📖⏳♨️

[@UniteAgainstEvil]

so true

[@legomeego8581]

23:05 Dan Brown answer me this. When Abraham was pleading for Sodom, God knew all along that he would destroy it but he agreed with Abraham to spare it if there were at least 10 righteous inhabitants. God went down from in the plea bargain from 50 to 10, but God knew how many righteous there were and he knew that ultimately he was going to destroy it. Were Abraham's pleas in vain? Did God give him false hope? Why didn't God go lower to spare everyone?

[@paulpano7750]

To display sir His mercy (saving Lot's family though they do not deserved it for they and we are no different from sodom and gomorrah - we are all sinners) and His justice(His righteous hate towards lawbreakers. God is not obliged to save everyone sir, it depends for whom He will bestow His mercy. That is God's prerogative.

[@legomeego8581]

Paul Pano If Lot’s family did not deserve saving then what made them more righteous than the rest of Sodom’s inhabitants? Why would God destroy them without a cause, if they did not partake in their sins and abominations? Does God’s mercy include also not executing Abraham on the spot for challenging God’s decree?

[@paulpano7750]

@@legomeego8581 thanks for the questions sir. As God has revealed sir that He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. Mercy is something that cannot be demanded by anyone as if someone deserves it. We, including Abraham and Lot and the people of S. and G. and the rest of humanity since the beginning of time sinned against God, violating His laws and are surely deserve only of His punishment. Lot was saved by the Lord is because of God's favor only not because of Lot's righteousness for NO ONE IS RIGHTEOUS (Romans 3:10) same case as in Abraham's preservation for the purpose of His Glory.

[@legomeego8581]

Paul Pano So you are saying that an unrepentant sinner can obtain God’s mercy? Is not the fruit of repentance a righteous work? Is not faith without works dead?

[@AnonymousTaco3472]

48:26 very beautiful quote!

[@pastorjdh]

Mr. White, there is a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE difference between God creating people with the specific purpose of putting them in Hell, so that he could demonstrate some attributes of His character and on the other side God knowing that when He created people many would reject him and end up there. God gave us all a chance to choose so that many of us can have intimacy and eternal pleasure with Him and so that He can have a family that can inherit what belongs to Him. Unfortunately by making creatures like himself with free wills it has proven costly. I am glad God gave us a chance to inherit His Kingdom. I hate the fact that many have rejected and will reject it, but He hates it more than any of us. Integrity among humans is doing the right thing no matter the outcome. How much more does God have integrity and righteousness? What He has done is right but terribly costly and heart breaking concerning the lost.

[@SamOwenI]

pastorjdh notice how that is not a biblical point at all. White simply quoted scripture to demonstrate Jesus's role as both sacrifice and high priest for the elect. Your response doesn't deal with the argument (nor did Dr Brown). Also, you say there is a massive difference between creating people who you know will freely reject you and creating people who you intend to judge for their sins. I would challenge you to think that through. What was God's purpose in creating people he knew were going to reject him and be punished for eternity? It seems as though the difference that matters to you is that one view allows man to be autonomous and God to have no purpose in creating people going to hell, and be disappointed for eternity because he doesn't get what he intends, while the other view allows for God to get what he wants in all things, forgoing man's autonomy.

[@6.0hhh]

@@SamOwenI amen. Absolutely correct

[@55dengen]

SamOwenI in the first view you would think that God would have to be victorious enough to have at least 51% of people saved. Imagine God desires for all to be saved, but more people burn supposedly in some literal lake of fire? Odd. Your view is more correct in that surely an all powerful God would be able to have the desires of his heart especially since his desires are pure and perfect love. But for some reason you refuse to think or even entertain any idea that God may desire to save all. In Hebrews the author says Jesus tasted death for all. Paul says in Timothy Jesus is a ransom for all in due time.

[@jordantheriverman6143]

In answer to any concerns that this may have arisen over this topic, i would urge brothers and sisters, to go back to the Bible, do not ultimately look to yourself (yes examine yourself) but look to the Lord Jesus and what He has done. His perfect, finished offering. So you can then say.. Jesus said that He will not cast any out who come to Him, and He is able to save perfectly, so I'm going to cling onto His promise for the sake of eternity. All who believe in me HAVE eternal life. Trust Him. Not your own abilities, holiness etc. If you doubt your salvation, go back to God and plead with Him to grant you comfort though His word. Dont let your desires and the enemy turn you to despair or into sin. God bless. Thumb up for others

[@leekellettjr441]

So much debate on something explained so completely and simply in God's word.

[@CraigT104]

I think both views are correct in some ways. Look at the apostle Paul, he is an example of predestination isn't he? Had he not been visited by Christ on the road to Damascus would he have turned to Christ? Maybe, but having Christ appear to you personally is a big boost. Before Cain killed Able didn't God tell Cain he would be accepted if he did well? But Cain didn't choose to do well. Cain was offered salvation wasn't he? But as far as we know he was cursed and went to hell. Why would God tell Cain he would be accepted "if he did well" if he wasn't one of the elect? I like both of these guys but I think I have to lean more towards Dr. Brown's arguments. My personal conviction is that we should plead with everyone everywhere to turn to God/Jesus and repent and be baptized and leave foreknowledge, predestination, etc. to God.

[@yauyamkee]

God chooses those whom He knows will turn to Him to accept His offer of salvation. Faith in Him. Abraham was righteous because he believes God. God is omniscience and knows the future and He chooses them based on His knowledge of the future.

[@cschristan1]

+CraigT104 Go back to the basics as it was explicitly revealed by Jesus Christ with regards to believing in Him which one will have eternal life, in John 6. 29 "Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." 37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." 65 "And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father." Brown obviously does not subscribe to these verses spoken of by the Lord Jesus Christ. It's clear as daylight that Jesus was referring to salvation of the elects, who have been predestined by the Father (v37). Nothing can be worse than sitting on the fence with regards to the salvation of a sinner in Jesus Christ.

[@cschristan1]

+Chris Yau So, your god is a fortune teller?

[@93556108]

Craig T104 both views have different theologies thus both views can't be both correct. For Apostle Paul case is similar to Prophet Jonah's incident as they were chosen to carry out a special task for God and not for soteriology. But Calvinism's theory is based on salvation purpose for the elect to eternal life and other predestined for hell which is against the teaching of the bible. I don't believed in limited atonement and if you do please answer my comments below to see whether you are agreeable or not; The simple and literal reading of John 12:32 means all men, indiscriminately and without distinction. Furthermore, if Jesus draws all men “without distinction,” then He must have died for all men, without distinction. Otherwise, exactly what would He be drawing them to? WHY would Jesus say He was going to “draw ALL MEN” if it weren’t His intent to save “ALL MEN”? By the way, are you a Calvinist, as I was once before. Thanks.

[@MrInfoPhilly]

God chose Judas., But he allows us to be able to serve him to the end., Satan can NOT FORCE US to walk out of Jesus salvation., Be we ourselves have free choice by God , so we can walk away from the faith. How we else can the scriptures says, in the end their will be a great falling away from the faith?

[@anonymousmouse505]

I havent seen L so categorically defended before, well done.

[@thekriskokid]

White's Christ, hanging on the cross saying " you, not you...you, not you...you. not...

[@benjaminisales5386]

Do you believe every person is going to heaven or do you believe there are people in hell paying for sins that have already been paid for?

[@thekriskokid]

@@benjaminisales5386 first of all, when you say do you believe "this or that", it usually indicates that you are setting up a false dichotomy, which you are. It's not what I believe, but what scripture teaches that matters. I will answer your question thusly. The scripture clearly states that Christ died for the sins OF THE WHOLE WORLD! That does not mean that all are forgiven and have eternal life. It simply means that the provision for ALL MEN has been given. This is so clear, it's hard to fathom that a knowledgeable scholar such as White can't see it. Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness. The provision was given to ALL, but the individual had to appropriate it by looking upon the serpent. This is Christ's own illustration. Simple! Those who suffer in hell, are suffering for their rejection of the payment that has been provided for their atonement. Simple! Don't twist scripture. Don't set up false dichotomies. God does not play eeny, meeny, miney, mo. Christ does not play I love him, I love him not. Simple!

[@benjaminisales5386]

@@thekriskokid ok so you believe Christ died not to save people but to provide a way for people to be saved.

[@thekriskokid]

@@benjaminisales5386 That's one way of putting it. Trying to trap me?

[@thekriskokid]

"This is the way; walk ye in it."

[@nizoleph786]

Died for MANY ... Hebrews 9:28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. (Hebrews 9:28, NASB)

[@93556108]

Nizoleph S, do you believed then the limited atonement of Christ? If you are, please answer this comment for me as stated below as I believed in unlimited atonement; The simple and literal reading of John 12:32 means all men, indiscriminately and without distinction. Furthermore, if Jesus draws all men “without distinction,” then He must have died for all men, without distinction. Otherwise, exactly what would He be drawing them to? WHY would Jesus say He was going to “draw ALL MEN” if it weren’t His intent to save “ALL MEN”?

[@arthurhorne9390]

@tan well first it’s your understanding of the word draw. Draw means to compel. Now in this context Jesus was talking about his death that was eminent and describing how or the mode in which he was about to die by the term lifted. It goes back to John ch 3:14-16 with his conversation with nicodemus. Now our text talks about the glorification of the father through the sons death. And when we talk about Gods glory we are essentially talking about who he is. On the cross every attribute of God was revealed. Everyone one was on the cross. Now what lead to this was a recent miracle of the raising of Lazarus from the dead which revealed his messiahship but also brought bitter hated. Now the miracle of him with Lazarus was 1 person. Lazarus was sick but the miracle was one. The miracle of the cross is for many. He saying that the sickness that the first Adam did I’m the cure. One Adam brought death on all so the other brought life for all.. some say the greatest miracle Jesus did was not coming off the cross!! Now the federal headship of Adam we had no say all was born into sin because of his offense. Now the 2 Adam Jesus is available for all but there’s something we must do and that is faith. Now your question is what is he drawing them to? Well the text says to “me” himself. Not to salvation. He never explicitly said what he was drawing them for!! Now if the raising of Lazarus was a messianic sign that drew a lot of people even those who wanted him dead and if the crucifixion draws them in the same way then we can’t assume that the drawing here is for salvation alone. Is the the drawing to the cross just for salvation? No it’s for justice too! The same cross that saves also condemns!! Your next question is why would Jesus say he drawing all men if his intent wasn’t to save all men? Well was the easing of Lazarus that drew the onlookers to save them or to reveal who he was? The theme of the book of John is the deity of Jesus Christ as God incarnate. This revelation comes through many ways but one way is signs. Now the greatest sign that Jesus is God is resurrection from the dead “lifted up from earth”. Romans 1:3. The drawing here is to the greatest sign of Jesus deity and that is the resurrection of the dead. Why does he draw all men to this sign. Because the grace and justice is revealed in the one same cross. Some of the all will receive the grace offered from it and the others will receive the justice from it. So it’s not talking about his intent to save all men but his intent to reveal to all men through this sign his justice and grace (and all the other attributes of God)

[@93556108]

@@arthurhorne9390 I somewhat agreed with your affirmation that the cross purpose is twofold in nature that is to demonstrate the mercy of God and also the justice of God especially to those who don't believed in Christ as their Lord and Savor. This section of Scripture follows right after the Lord’s triumphal entry into Jerusalem. Some Greeks who were present in the city for the Passover feast were drawn to Jesus and sought to speak with Him. Jesus took the occasion to speak of His impending death and its results. The crucifixion moved to the forefront of Christ’s focus. Jesus knew His death would bring life to many, but His heart was troubled. He declared His concerns in prayer, asking the Father to glorify His name through His crucifixion (John 12:20-28). Jesus wasn’t implying that every person without exception would put their faith in Him for salvation. Clearly, many did not. Jesus meant that people of all ethnic groups and from every part of the world would be drawn to Him through His exaltation in death. The “all people” included the Greeks who were seeking Jesus right then and listening to His voice. At the cross, we encounter God’s justice through the judgment of sin, God’s love and mercy through the forgiveness of sinners, and God’s power through His defeat of Satan (Romans 3:21-26; Colossians 1:13). At the cross, Christ brings salvation to those who believe and judgment to those who refuse to believe. In God’s wisdom and holiness, the cross opens the only way to the Father for sinners (John 14:6). At the cross, Jesus sets us free from the chains of sin. The lifting up of Jesus on the cross is the captivating influence that pulls human hearts to Him.

[@arthurhorne9390]

@tan ok but you didn’t answer your own question in light of the text. I answer your question. If you say the cross bring deliverance from satan, which I agree, then the drawing of all we know they all don’t experience it because of what revelation tells us prophetically. Now remember the theme of the book of John is the deity of our lord. If he is saying that he draws all me to him for salvation then why is the cross twofold to condemn and save.. the all men could be Jew and gentile. Now the dying for all (and I’m not necessarily denying your point but I think u have the wrong text to prove it) can mean all will be judge by it! But the point is it reveals him it doesn’t mean to save them.

[@93556108]

@@arthurhorne9390 when I say the cross has two fold purpose I meant there is where mercy and justice meet. When Christ was on the cross, some are for him, and others against him, some to bewail him, and others to reproach him. As for the verse John 12:32 Christ draws all men to himself but men has the freewill whether to accept or reject the free gift of salvation offered by God.

[@Deacondan240]

Dr. Brown, I too was a Calvinist for 27 years and am finding my path back to sanity. Your strongest argument is the reflection upon God's love for the atonement to be an offer vs a fixed application. Calvinist makes good arguments, but they seem to be narrowly defined by logical rules. Dr. Brown is a true Arminianist. I would offer a partial approach... Referring to the Book of life, I submit all people created are in the book of life because they are God's creation and he loves his creation. BUT, scripture warns of being blotted out because of unbelief. This is consistent to allow for babies and dementia. I also hold that once a person believes and falls away, it is unlikely they will repent again. Heb 6:1. We are all called, few are chosen to follow thru and believe to the end, but we ARE RESPONSIBLE.

[@craigjoyner9857]

Daniel R , that makes no sense. If we all start in the book of life, we are all heaven bound, then if we hear the gospel and reject Jesus later, we get blotted out, and the. If we accept Jesus later, are our names added again?!? The book of life is purposed from the foundation of the world, and the names are added to the book at the appointed time when people are saved. Just like the lambs was purposed from before the foundation of the world, to be slain at the appointed time.

[@Deacondan240]

Craig Joyner - not what I’m saying. All are written in because they are created in Gods image. Those who come to faith and endure to the end stay in. Those who at some point known to God, decide once and for all to chose their is way , get blotted out, never to be added back. Some call this to be chosen, pick your words.

[@sandieyumul3747]

Nobody from the panelist explained Ezekiel chapter 18 which is beneficial to their topic on how people be saved. If there would be another dabate, it should be on this Ezekiel’s chapter 18 and its application now.

[@chrisjjimenez1098]

Talk about mans condition first. We are all dead man spiritually. Children of wrath, men don’t have the power to raise them self up. Only God can raise died people alive. That is true grace because we don’t deserve it. Woe to me for I’m a man without clean lips Isaiah understood his condition. I have come to the understanding that I was dead by hearing and reading the word of God. It’s was only by His amazing Grace that I am saved. I give Him praise everyday now that I see the glory of His work in my own life and hold on to His promises because I know I don’t deserve anything but separation from him do to mans fall from the beginning. His will is much much more greater then what we think it should be. He chooses on who He has compassion and mercy to. He is the potter we are the clay, he has the freedom to do with us as he wishes period. I rejoice that he saved a wretch like me and He gets all the glory and doesn’t share it with me. I understand that so it can’t boast of myself but boast about who He. I was dead but now alive in Christ Jesus regenerated by His power. I once had a heart of stone but He gave me a heart of flesh. I think true believers in Christ get so excited to share the good news to people that they want to tell them all the good things first before the bring the bad news first ( that we are rebels against God,hostile towards Him ,enemies toward Him, no one is good no not one, dead in our sins)

[@ipaporod]

I really don't understand how people go to an university and get a doctorate in theology and still don't get the 101 basics of salvation and the Gospel!. Salvation is a very easy thing to grasp and understand if you let the bible speak for itself.Here is the 101 easy understanding of redemption: 1-Sin was brought to humankind (ALL THE WORLD) by Adam and Eve through disobedience to God. 2-Through one man (Adam) all the world (all his descendants) inherited a sinful nature and therefore all are under condemnation by God. 3-If ALL are under the slavery of sin and condemnation logically ALL must be rescued from slavery and death. 4-Jesus came to undo the works of Satan and free ALL those who were under bondage and slavery by offering ALL those who believe in him eternal life. 5-If ,as Calvinist claim , God gave His only begotten Son as an atonement for sin to a selected predestined group of people only, that would imply that the whole world is not worthy of God's mercy and pardon. IT MOST BE TO ALL WHO ARE SINNERS because a SINFUL nature is the only condition for which Jesus atonement could be effective and valid!.You must be a SINNER for Jesus atonement to be effective, a sinless, righteous and perfect man (Adam before the fall) does not have the need of an atonement.Only those who are under the curse of sin need to be liberated from that curse.If Calvinists are as much as sinners as the rest of humankind , why then Jesus atonement be effective and valid to Calvinists only while ineffective and invalid to the rest who met the same SINFUL requirement (as Calvinist do) of Jesus atonement?. That is why the Bible says " God so loved the WORLD (ALL SINNERS) that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever ( ALL OF THOSE THAT ARE IN THE WORLD) believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life". The whole world (ALL) have the opportunity and offer of grace/mercy but ONLY those (the sheep that hear Jesus voice and follow him) who make the decision of accepting God grace are to BE SAVED!. So you see, by one man (Adam) SIN and condemnation/death entered humanity (ALL THE WORLD) and by one man ( Jesus) righteousness and salvation/eternal life was brought as an offering to ALL those who believe in the Son of the ALL MIGHTY GOD OF ISRAEL!.If salvation and eternal life would be for only a selected group of people that would imply that the UNIVERSAL ("GOD SO LOVE THE WORLD") expression of an offering of salvation was a lie. My dear friends GOD CAN NOT LIE OR DECEIVE because God is TRUTHFUL,JUST AND HOLY. You don't need a doctorate to know God's plan of salvation, God made it very simple and easy for us to understand and follow Jesus road to heaven.Through Him, Jesus is the door and we ALL are offered (grace) the key (faith) to get into heaven!.Go and get the key to unlock the door (Jesus) that will give you eternal life and joy in our God kingdom

[@TheEngineer19]

James white is not saved.. No matter how many degree you have if you put your faith in a god who authored sin for his pleasure, which is not God of the Bible, you are trusting another god..

[@RationalGaze.BingChillin]

@12:33. This is offensive that anecdotal evidence of people being guilty of emotional reasoning should have ANY bearing on the truth of God’s word. To say “what does it matter?” To the biblical truth that God has the freedom to choose Is literally addressed directly in Romans 9. Is dr Brown trolling???

[@benjaminisales5386]

If you know for sure that all babies go to heaven would that mean that abortion is the most effective tool for ensuring salvation for the greatest number of people?

[@MrInfoPhilly]

No., because the person committing it is guilty of murder

[@djaconetta]

Dennis Jaconetta 2 minutes ago (edited) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. I think this vs. settles it once and for all....Are the dead judged for their sins ,,no Why ,because their sins were judged on the cross by Jesus Christ.....The are judged and condemned by there works , all the works they performed to gain the approbation of God. They are therefore condemned by their good works used as a substitute for the works of Christ on the cross.

[@55dengen]

Predestination is ...” in accordance with his pleasure and will” Ephesians 1:4,5. What is God’s pleasure and will? It pleases God that none should perish but for all to come to repentance. Does the bible not say that?

[@johnnyllooddte3415]

yes it does.. but it also says this.1 John 2:1-2: "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father-Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." ahaha i love it when you MIX 5 pointer philosophy into Bible verses.. show me a SINGLE VERSE thats says.. CHRIST ONLY DIED for the elect..there isnt one.. show me a verse that says i only died for my a sheep ..

[@shanicebryant2805]

“even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,” ‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:4-5‬ ‭ESV‬‬ Key words/ phrases to think about in its context- 1. He chose us 2. He predestined us for adoption God is sovereign over salvation, He saves who He wants because He doesn’t have to anyone at all. According to this passage before Adam even sinned and the world was created, God CHOSE SOME TO BE SAVED. It’s right here in the text. He didn’t choose everyone to be saved. Some people will not come to saving faith. It’s not because God didn’t choose them, but it’s because NO ONE IS ENTITLED TO BE SAVED. The sinner does not want God at all.

[@UniteAgainstEvil]

calvinism is incoherent 🤦‍♂️

[@RyanSmith-hi2nv]

Thank you for posting this debate.

[@johngodsey5327]

I’m Not a clavinist Nor a charismatic Dr brown clearly won this debate

[@bobfree1226]

Even Macarthur,and Sproul asked why why could not God save all? again this undermines Gods love imho

[@englandshope689]

he DOES save ALL, ultimately...imo

[@bobfree1226]

Dr Brown answers scripture and i agree with him as a former calvanist as i was as well.but no longer -God died for the sins of Everyone!!

[@93556108]

@@cog4808 you are in error, do read the bible carefully. it explicitly stated that salvation is conditional on having faith in Christ and it is by God's grace (Eph2:8, Joh3:16). Atonement of Christ for the world is merely a component of salvation and it must be appropriated by faith in Christ

[@93556108]

@@cog4808 by the tone of your expression, I presumed you to be a Calvinist. Your first question, you were mentioning the word "sheep" and using the bible let us see what Jesus said who are the sheep he meant that He came for? I quote;. (Mat 15:24) But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Here Jesus affirmed first He came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel?. Are the elect Gentiles included into the lost sheep of the house of Israel. You quoted this verse; "(Joh 10:15) As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep". Does this verse even applicable to the elect of the 20th century? You answer it yourself. I again quote ;("Mat 10:5) These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: (Mat 10:6) But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel". Even in the FIRST century Jesus already commanded his disciples not to go to the Gentiles but Calvinism in the 20th CENTURY, dare to claim they were the sheep, the elect of God from the foundation of the world who were chosen and Jesus only die for the elect. What an absolute absurdity !!! Your second question, in order to come to Jesus what is required? This verse says it all of unlimited atonement and I quote: "(Joh 12:32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me". It is evidently clear and undeniable your belief system need a great overhauling.

[@93556108]

@@cog4808 Sorry I missed out your reply 2 months ago. I am a Christian who reads the bible according to its interpreting principles. You are in fact ignorant by not reading the bible based on its historical context and to compare scripture with scripture, in order to arrive at it true meaning. The sheep in its context were the Jews which Jesus was seeking and not believers as you ignorantly claimed. Jesus here rebuked the Canaanite woman, a Gentile and stated: (Mat 15:24) But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Jesus stated clearly here the lost sheep He was seeking were the Jews from the house of Israel. By the way are you from the house of Israel? Similarly in John 10:11, 16 Jesus meant in this verse that He lay down His life for His sheep who are the Jews from the house of Israel. In verse 16 Jesus had other sheep, not from this fold implying He came too to seek out the Gentiles also after He had seek the Jews first (Rom1:16, 2:9). These verses proved your faulty notion that affirmed sheep are implying believers when it is not. But it is used in this instance to mean the Jewish people and the Gentiles came to seek in the first century. You quoted John 15:29 which is an apparent error and should read as John15:19. Your total ignorance has been shown here as you don’t read the verse in its proper context. This verse is not about God choosing some for eternal life but the chosen one here referred to the chosen 12 disciples. Sad to note you are a believer of the heretical teachings of Calvinism. Please reply and prove me wrong by quoting Scripture. Your degree of ignorant of the correct principle of bible interpretation is truly alarming and yet you have the guts in pointing your fingers at other.

[@93556108]

@@cog4808 you originally claimed my ignorance of stating that the sheep only refer to the Jews. Yes it is stated in Mat15:24 that Jesus came to seek the lost sheep from the house of Israel. Why you didn't answer my question, whether you are from the house of Israel instead of keeping silent? Further you said that "the sheep is simply an analogy referring to believers all over the world" and you quoted the non-existant verse John 15:29. This notion of your "sheep referring to believers" contradicted Scripture and foreign to the bible. Jesus never came to seek believers which you claimed an analogy to sheep but in context Jesus came to seek the Jews who are lost. I further quoted Romans 1:16, 2:9 which stated the order of Jesus' ministry was to the Jews first and then the gentiles as evidenced by John 10:16. So what, are you implying by rudely stating "Who is the ignorant one now...idiot"? Who is the bigger idiot when nowhere is it stated in the bible that "the believers are simply an analogy of the sheep". You quoted John 15:29 and taken it to mean God choosing of man for eternal life. You are reading into the text with the intention of making the verse to fit into the mold of Calvinism. Did this verse affirmed your notion? Certainly not and it was the choosing of Jesus on the 12 disciples?. Why then you keep silent on this verse quoted by you and erroneously applied to salvation of individuals for eternal life? Shame on your shabby knowledge of the bible. Please answer me if you dare.

[@93556108]

@@cog4808 your earlier message you mentioned the doctrine of predestination which is stated in the bible. But did Calvin taught double-predestination? If you still doubt it, I quote for you this extract from Calvin's institute section 5, chapter 21 which stated "All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. As a devout Calvinist would you like to support Calvin's double-predestination doctrine with some bible verses as predestination is taught in the bible but its concepts are different from Calvinism.

[@oneandonlyarajivp]

a scary thought for Dr White - he could be sitting there debating about the elect and yet he has no assurance, whatsoever, whether he is one of the elects! Imagine sat there for 3 hours doing this debate, thinking all his life that he is following Christ and has walking with his saviour day in day out and then at the last breathe on his death bed not actually knowing if he was one of the elects!!! Nothing could be scarier than that. I don't view Dr White's stance as just another opinion, I thoroughly believe that it is horrific, ghastly and goes against Christ's sacrifice. It is therefore an anti-gospel stance and he is in deep error. Not only is he wrong about his stance, he is leading others around him into error and stealing the peace of christians. Paul talks about the Holy Spirit within us as a deposit, a guarantee of our future salvation when Christ comes. If a christian is not part of the elects, according to Dr White's stance, then he wouldnt have the holy spirit too and couldnt function in power on this earth, nor could he even confess Christ as Lord or even pray, sicne Romans says that the Holy Spirit is the one that enables us to pray and worship. My point is with the election doctrine, you start chipping away so much of what Christians are called and have been given through the sacrifice of Christ. The worst of all this is that why even bother? Why even bother asking for the Holy spirit to fill us, praying to God, asking for gifts, sharing our faith with others and etc, when you yourself have no idea whether you're actually elected for salvation. I see the election doctrine as a complete lie and rubbish, to put it bluntly.

[@coreylapinas1000]

If his behavior on the Dividing Line is any indication, he indeed has no assurance of his salvation.

[@dawsonmurray4188]

I don't understand if God foreknew who will choose Him, and in creating the world it is all fixed. Why would He die for those who He knew wouldn't believe?

[@johnnyllooddte3415]

GODs greatest desire is companionship with man.. HE desires even a single person come to HIM on his own volition,, thats why

[@crystalreddick5255]

Is the end goal of creation to manifest God or to see how many people He can have in heaven. see Rom 9. Is not the Potter free, has He no right?

[@93556108]

Crystal Reddck, romans 9 had allusions from jer18 and the truth only comes from comparing scripture with scripture. The Potter is God and the whole lump of clay is the rebellious Israelites which God with longsuffering waited for their repentance and there are some faithful remnant Israelites which God chose for his special task. Therefore, Rom9 is not about individual's salvation which Calvinism claimed the elect chosen for salvation and God predestinated the rest to hell. You sound like a Calvinist, are you?

[@craigjoyner9857]

Crystal Reddick , Jeremiah 18:3-10 KJV [3] Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. [4] And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. [5] Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying, [6] O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. [7] At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it ; [8] If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. [9] And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it ; [10] If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. It’s about nations and that nations response to god. Not about individual salvation or election.

[@93556108]

@@craigjoyner9857 certainly your exposition is agreeable but Calvinism always interpret the bible so that they fit into their mold of theory.

[@Romans-cn8mw]

I believe it is never too late for anyone to come to faith in the living God prior to dying. From the days of Adam seemingly thru the Millennium, all can willfully choose to accept Him and be saved by the blood of Jesus. God has nature, His creation, reveal Himself to the world. He has the Holy Word. He has us preaching the Gospel. He will have an angel and 2 Witnesses. Yet, many will deny Him. Hitchens comes to mind. Jesus' blood is available for all throughout time. Only by His blood are sins remitted. Believe and accept His unmerited grace.

[@Thinking-Biblically]

The natural man does not accept the things of God nor is he ABLE to do so

[@mslisasierra]

I don’t know how it’s not plain to see that Dr. Brown refuses to address the texts that clearly refute his position. Arminianism is a clear indication of elevating man and trying to “save God.”

[@JungleJargon]

There is something wrong when you try to say that the world is the church or Israel. You had better have a lot of Scripture to base such a claim on and there is none. The only thing that limits the atonement is your belief in lies or the sin of unbelief which condemns you already. Salvation is through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. God is able to make all grace abound toward you so that you always having all sufficiency in all things may abound to every good work. All glory belongs to God. Truth saves because it persuades you to obey. The sons of Eli will never be saved by their works or anything they do because only God can cover for you Himself and remake you again from the inside out by the power of His true word. No one else can. The Holy Spirit is your only link to God. The sending of the Holy Spirit was made possible by the blood of Messiah which convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgment. All of the sin of Adam has to be paid for and no man can ever pay for any part of his sin because man is not qualified which is the reason hell is eternal because man can pay for no part of his sin. If, after a million years in hell, a part of sin was paid for, at some point man would pay for his own sin and that is just not possible because man is an imperfect payment for his sin. No sin can ever be unaccounted for in God. All sin has to be covered and all men are bought back by God so that all men have to answer to God. All men now have a link to God by way of the Holy Spirit that is sent to them. If, by the Spirit, you put to death the deeds of the flesh, you will live. If not, you will be thrown into prison until you pay every last cent and you will never pay for even one cent so hell is eternal. ... Dr. Brown is right!

[@chrisottenstroer7202]

In John 17 he’s not just praying for those who will believe! He praying for those the Father has given the Son out of the world! Yours they were (from when?), and you gave them to me.

[@christianchannel8755]

Good exchange!

[@buddyfisher1]

I'm still waiting for a calvinist to say "I am NOT one of the elect, but I still agree with calvinism and love God for choosing me for eternal torment to show everyone His perfect justice!" That will be a calvinist I would respect.

[@Lala_Land551]

How can someone say "I am NOT one of the elect" if no one knows who the elect are?

[@buddyfisher1]

onetruthonelife Every calvinist I have met assumes they are one of the "elect". They all seem comfortable in their calvinism because they believe they are on their way to heaven. If God is glorified in sending the non-elect to hell, I'm still looking for the calvinist who still loves predestination even though they are predestined for hell, and are happy that their torment will glorify God.

[@Lala_Land551]

My question is how can someone know for sure that they are predestined to Hell?

[@ymhayuociotlc]

***** The unbelievers have the option of accepting Jesus, those who God doesn't choose have no opportunity to be saved. That's not the same thing at all.

[@Lala_Land551]

ymhayuociotlc Those who are not chosen by God have no desire to be saved. Just as we wouldn't have the desire unless God gave us a new heart of flesh. The truth is that all of humanity are rebel sinners (Romans 3). God has freely chosen some of those rebel sinners to Himself. In order for those particular rebel sinners to respond to Him, He has to change there heart (John 6:37-44). If He didn't change my heart (as it says in Ezekiel), I would not have responded to Him for I loved my sin and hated God as it says in Romans. The bible does not describe fallen man as free agents.

[@CaseyCovenant]

Dr. Robert Shaw offers 11 arguments for limited atonement as he comments on WCF 8:8: The sacrifice of Christ derived infinite value from the dignity of his person; it must, therefore, have been intrinsically sufficient to expiate the sins of the whole human race had it been so intended; but, in the designation of the Father, and in the intention of Christ himself, it was limited to a definite number, who shall ultimately obtain salvation. This important truth may be confirmed by the following arguments: 1. Restrictive terms are frequently employed in Scripture to express the objects of the death of Christ: “He bare the sin of many.” “He gave his life a ransom for many.” (Isa. 53:12; Matt. 20:28). Does not this intimate that Christ died, not for all men, but only formany? 2. Those for whom Christ died are distinguished from others by discriminating characters. They are called the sheep, John x 15; the church (Eph. 5:25); God’s elect(Rom. 8:33); the children of God (John 11:52). 3. Those whom Christ redeemed by his blood are said to be “redeemed from among men” (Rev. 14:4), which, if Christ had redeemed all men, would be an unmeaning and inconsistent phrase; they are also said to be “redeemed out of every kindred,” &c. (Rev. 5:9), which certainly implies that only some of every kindred are redeemed. 4. The redemption obtained by Christ is restricted to those who were “chosen in him,” and whom the Father gave to him to redeem by his death (Eph. 1:4, 7; John 17:2). 5. Christ died in the character of a surety, and therefore he laid down his life only for those whom he represented, or for his spiritual seed (Isa. 53:10). 6. The intention of Christ in laying down his life was, not merely to obtain for those for whom he died a possibility of salvation, but actually to save them-to bring them to the real possession and enjoyment of eternal salvation (Eph. 5:25, 26; Tit. 2:14; 1 Pet. 3:18; 1 Thess. 5:10). From this, it inevitably follows, that Christ died only for those who shall be saved in him with an everlasting salvation. 7. The intercession of Christ proceeds upon the ground of his atoning sacrifice; they must, therefore, be of the same extent with regard to their objects; but he does not pray for the world, but only for those who were given him out of the world; his sacrifice must, therefore, be restricted to that definite number (1 John 2:1, 2; John 17:9). 8. An apostle infers from the greatness of God’s love in delivering up his Son to death for sinners, that he will not withhold from them any of the blessings of salvation; we must, therefore, conclude that Christ did not die for all mankind (Rom. 8:32). 9. The same apostle infers the certainty of our salvation by the life of Christ, from our reconciliation to God by his death; now, since all are not saved by his life, we must conclude that all were not reconciled by his death (Rom. 5:10). 10. Christ, by his death, procured for his people not only salvation, but all the means leading to the enjoyment of it; consequently, his intention in dying must be limited to those who do repent and believe, and not extended to the whole human race. 11. The doctrine that Christ died for all men leads to many absurd consequences, such as: That Christ shed his blood for many in vain, since all are not saved; that he laid down his life in absolute uncertainty whether any of the human race would be eventually saved; that he shed his blood for millions who, at the very moment of his death, were consigned to the pit of everlasting destruction; that he died for those for whom he does not intercede; that he died for those to whom he never sent the means of salvation, yea, to some of whom he even forbade his gospel to be preached (Matt. 10:5; Rom. 10:14); and that God acts unjustly in inflicting everlasting punishment upon men for those very transgressions for which he has already received full satisfaction by the death of Christ. To affirm any of these things, would be blasphemous in the highest degree, and, therefore, that doctrine which involves such consequences must be unscriptural. Taken from The Reformed Faith: An Exposition of the Westminster Confession of Faith (pp. 158-59) FROM: nwbingham.com/blog/11-arguments-for-limited-atonement/

[@DogSoldier1948]

People, Arminianism is a watered-down version of pelagianism. Pelagianism was viewed as heretical so they tried Semi-Pelagianism and then to armenianism. All are heretical. Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

[@waynehampson9569]

If Jesus died for all the world then why did he say -13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Matthew 7:13,14

[@MrInfoPhilly]

He died for all to be saved., But all will not choose to follow the ways of the Lord. Most wants to serve themselves first., So they ignore Jesus.

[@johnnyllooddte3415]

show me a verse that says i only died for my a sheep ...1 John 2:1-2: "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father-Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

[@chrisherron9588]

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. - John 10:11 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one." - John 10:26-30

[@ManlyServant]

@@chrisherron9588 K

[@sandieyumul3747]

Jesus Christ died for the entire world and it means both people whom he saved which are/were the elect and those whom do/did not believed in the Gosple of the Kingdom.

[@cschristan1]

Ephesians 1:3-6, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as HE CHOSE US IN HIM before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love HE PREDESTINED US to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved." Dr Brown, what does "HE CHOSE US IN HIM" mean to you? Isn't this explicitly with regards to "ELECTION"? If God the Father has not "elected a people" to Himself through His Son, why then would the Son in His last breathe at Calvary say, "IT IS FINISHED."? Since you do not think that the Son died for those who His Father has given to Him (even though declared by the Son in John 6), then He had no right to say, "IT IS FINISHED", right? Remember the mission the Son had, "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for HE WILL SAVE HIS PEOPLE from their sins." (Matthew 1:21) So who then are "His people"? The whole world that's made up of sheep and goats? Or are "His people" only the sheep? For if your understanding of the world is every Tom, Dick and Harry, then nobody should go to Hell based on the promise of Matthew 1:21.

[@bobpolo2964]

Thomas Gissler So God learned something, correct?

[@evanu6579]

Chris Tan Eph 1 is talking about spiritual blessings that we have in heavenly places, in Christ. What is literally true of Christ, is spiritually true for those who are in Christ.... Literally true of Christ.... Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Spiritually true of those in Christ..... Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: Literally true of Christ..... 1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Spiritually true of those in Christ..... Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: This is the basis for the first three chapters of Ephesians. If we were chosen to be in Christ before the foundation of the world, then how do you make sense of this...... Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: Having no hope? They would have had more than hope. They would have had a guarantee!!

[@evanu6579]

Thomas Gissler The Golden Chain of Redemption I will attempt to give scriptural evidence, that in Romans 8:28-30 Paul is discussing the forefathers, who loved God, as an example of hope for the church in Rome. As Paul encourages the church, he uses men like Abraham as an example, for the hope that we have as followers of Christ . I believe this to be a reiteration of a statement he made in Romans 4. I believe that the foreknew in Romans 8, is of the same class of people as the foreknew in Romans 11........ Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew....... Amos 3:1 Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, 2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities. First let's look at the flow of thought which leads up to this passage. vv1-16. We must walk in the Spirit. The Spirit confirms that we are children of God. vv17-19. If we suffer with Christ, we will also be glorified with Him. vv20-23. The entire creation is groaning, and in bondage from the fall, waiting for that day of redemption vv24-25. But our great hope is that we will be glorified with Him. vv26-27. The Spirit also helps us through this troublesome time. vv28. And we know (an appeal to their knowledge of the scriptures) that all things work together for good to them that love God. To them who are the called according to His purpose. vv29. Those whom He knew from before, He also purposed to receive a glorified body. vv30. And whom He predestinated, he also called. (Abraham called….) Gen 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. vv30. Whom He called, He also justified. (Abraham justified….) Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. vv30. Whom He justified, He also glorified. (Abraham glorified…) Gen 23:6 Hear us, my lord: thou art a mighty prince among us: in the choice of our sepulchres bury thy dead; none of us shall withhold from thee his sepulchre, but that thou mayest bury thy dead. Gen 24:35 And the LORD hath blessed my master greatly; and he is become great: and he hath given him flocks, and herds, and silver, and gold, and menservants, and maidservants, and camels, and asses. Being glorified in this way, is also part of our hope…… Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Jer 30:19 And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small. 31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Compare these verses (31-33) with what Paul stated in Romans 4 (Abraham)….. Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? I believe Paul is borrowing this phraseology from Isaiah…… Isaiah 50:8 He is near that justifieth me; who will contend with me? let us stand together: who is mine adversary? let him come near to me. 9 Behold, the Lord GOD will help me; who is he that shall condemn me? lo, they all shall wax old as a garment; the moth shall eat them up.

[@eugenegerman8218]

1. God chose those IN HIM (in Christ) to be holy and blameless before him. 2. In love he predestined those IN HIM (in Christ) for adoption as sons and heirs in the kingdom.....

[@francispame6839]

If God already knew or choose whom to save, why need to preach the gospel? Because preaching to the lost is a waste of time. Besides, how would God punish someone in hell, He didn't choose??? Please enlighten me. I feel like doctrine of reincarnation is far better than believing in Abrahamic God.

[@jeffjazzy2106]

Dr. White I love you but sometimes your message gets lost because you don't stick with scripture.

[@jeffjazzy2106]

The gospel is preached the call is given and the elect will come. No one can come unless given by the father to come will come.

[@jasonfuller4177]

What I am seeing I didn't comment on the first one is that Dr James and people that are in that realm of believing their doctrine of having a hard time with what the scripture says they can't wrap their brains around it. They say it can't be the way scripture says if Jesus died for all the atonement applied to all then if the people are in hell then they told me failed. The reason they are in hell is because they didn't exercise their belief the Bible says those who are thirsty let him come the ones that are in heaven are the ones that were thirsty they came and wanted to drink the ones are in hell were thirsty and were offered the free gift of living water and they said no thank you I do not want therefore because they rejected they are in hell. So the calvinist has a hard time wrapping your brain around that they say it can't be that way it can't be that way there's no way it can be that way it's not so therefore they rejected and go to a different viewpoint they have to come that conclusion and work that out with God on their own. What we have to do is just read the text and plainly leave it as it is do not add to it do not take away from it and what I'm saying is they can't seem to grasp define night ways of God that even though summer in hell God knew that but he took a gamble knowing that not all people would accept the free gift of living water if he was okay with that is either take a gamble or make a zombies in robots and he wanted us to come freely. They have to work that out with God I've already done that and the others I pray will eventually do so thanks be to God that he pursued me and allowed me to make a decision to accept the grace that was bestowed on the cross of calvary the price that was paid on my behalf of my sins the propitiation for the whole world

[@mch5887]

Romans 11 29. For God's gifts and His call are irrevocable. He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call. Romans 9 11. For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calls;

[@Soli_Deo_Gloria2023]

Dr.James Whites unapologetically won the debate!!

[@arnobabajanian1300]

Arminism can't be consistent!

[@mattbohlman6219]

I wrote a book that presents a new model and middle ground perspective between the Penal view and Christus Victor. I call it Perfectus Liberatio. In short the wrath of God is not directed AT Christ, but operates THROUGH Christ. God’s wrath is his moral perfection being revealed against all that is contrary to moral perfection. Christ is the sinless Lamb. Thus God can transfer all sin upon his sinless Lamb and condemn it as being in the wrong-in the sinless perfection of the Son. For sin was unable to accuse, condemn or to lay a charge against the Son for any wrongdoing. Like trying to stick the barbs of Velcro onto a smooth mirror, sin cannot attach itself to the Son- for the Son offers no “hooks” for sin to grab hold of. Therefore because sin cannot justify its presence in the Son, the Father’s wrath is able to condemn sin as being “in the wrong” IN THE SINLESS perfection of the Son. Like pouring a vile of deadly bacteria into a bucket of pure bleach, the bacteria does NOT infect the bleach. Rather the bleach destroys the bacteria. In the cross the sinfulness of sin is undone by the sin-less nature of the Son. The wrath of God is the basis by which sin is condemned THROUGH the Son. But the Son is NOT being condemned (Rom. 8:3). There is more to say. Feel free to buy my short, 100 page book that begins with a parable story to prepare you for the later commentary on the atonement. Go to Amazon and type either my name or “The Fall and Redemption of Shadowmere.” Peace

[@aaronaplin7271]

This Brown guy... I've never seen anyone avoid questions so much in my life. How in the world can anyone pay for their sins in hell if Gods justice and wrath have been turned away from them by Christ's sacrifice and He Himself paying for those very sins? Since he's an arminian, Dr. Brown would have to conclude that the person has to pay for the sin after Christ already has? So God demands the punishment twice? Come on dude! Use common sense. White won that debate.

[@REDRAGON12345]

You realize that even Calvinists recognize that the atonement alone does not save. The faith is absolutely required for the atonement to be applied. Let that sink in for a second. How do we know this? Because even the elect are called "children of wrath," "enemies of God" and so on. Look it up in Ephesians, Collosians, etc. This means that prior to faith, even the elect (as Calvinist understands them) are not saved. Without faith, even the elect do not have the atonement's benefits applied to them. Take the time to think about this before replying.

[@bobpolo2964]

Thomas Gissler "it's up to man" That's a scary concept

[@evanu6579]

Aaron Aplin Devon Lev 1:4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him. Was this all it took to be atoned for? Was there anything else required?..... Psa 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. 17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. 18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem. 19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar. God requires a broken heart over your sin for the atonement to be effective. The gospel includes repentance. An example..... Luke 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. Pro 21:27 The sacrifice of the wicked is abomination: how much more, when he bringeth it with a wicked mind? Isa 66:2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. 3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. 4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not Amo 5:22 Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts. God bless

[@unclanrhino]

@@evanu6579 truth!

[@MrInfoPhilly]

@@bobpolo2964 God decided to call us friends not slaves., So God will not force anyone to be at the marriage supper of the lamb., just like the parable of the bridegroom. He wants us to freely follow him. We are not slaves

[@ivjdivfjalekvvjp]

Dr. Brown! You did so great in this debate. Sometimes I don't know if you even realize how much you sound like a Molinist. That's why White brought it up in your previous debate. I'm of the firm belief that Molinism (and appropriate responses to Calvinist objections, which are easy to answer) can provide the knockout power when coupled with the strong (and I think insurmountable) scriptural references affirming human freedom and God's universal savlvific will and desire for all men to turn from the wickedness to faith and repentance. Remember, Arminius himself was a Molinist.

[@JungleJargon]

(The death of Yeshua accomplished the sending of the Holy Spirit. God could otherwise have nothing to do with you, without the blood of Messiah. We would all be dead so the fact that the non-elect even exist proves there is a provision for them.)

[@jwalkermtnr]

It’s possible to not fall under the Calvinistic nor the Arminianist view. I personally don’t believe in predestination but I do believe in eternal security. God’s sovereignty and man’s free will can coexist.

[@Reformados.-yi3fy]

This was not an orderly debate, those questions being asked go everywhere except the point they were debating about. James white is given just a little time to answer and then a flurry of questions that only express ignorance were asked.

[@ManlyServant]

23:28

[@timdodenhoff7942]

2 Thess says we were chosen from the beginning for salvation.

[@bobfree1226]

Grafted IN by Faith Paul says!!

[@jeffjazzy2106]

Dr. Brown doesn't want to say elect because when he describes his beliefs election is always there.

[@peteryang2067]

How does this not have anymore views

[@darrow2381]

15:36 AND SO IT WAS BORN THE BABY ARGUMENT

[@bobfree1226]

How can white say God is Love,an the large majority dont even Get Called.Non-Sense

[@Deacondan240]

Dr White, Of course God knew who would believe, and he ordained that they have the freedom to respond to God's calling. Many are called, few are chosen. Matt 22:14. I think Dr Brown is more consistent with the scripture's full breath. Calvinist do hyper fixate upon a few scriptures and ignore many others. I also remind us that saving faith is not always "saying certain words about Jesus." OT saints were saved by faith - thru Jesus, but without a specific name or act. It was faith which was verified and redeemed at the cross and Christ going back for OT saints. Here is the deal... no matter how was come to faith, we must show fruit thru works and make our election sure and not fall into unbelief. WHAT IS OUR RESPONSIBILITY AFTER WE BELIEVE IN ORDER TO STAY SAVED??? The Calvinist says, nothing, God will do it all. It seems that God has set up synergism between his grace and our faith. Saved by grace thru faith, both.

[@titocarlos7896]

The Gospel message is repent and believe? This is how Calvinists preach the Gospel? Paul said the gospel was Jesus dying for us..How did the gospel change?

[@SamOwenI]

Tito Carlos did you listen to both sides of the debate? The bible doesn't teach, "Tell people that Jesus died for them so they should believe." The bible does say, "Repent and believe..."

[@tannerdavis746]

Christ may be presented/offered to all as the Messiah who was crucified and raised. There is no biblical pattern of saying, "Jesus died for YOU." We simply present Christ and his work, explaining that because of his death and resurrection, he is sufficient to save ANYONE who comes to him. Paul didn't say the gospel was "Jesus dying for us," but simply "Christ and him crucified".

[@titocarlos7896]

Tanner Davis Paul went to the city or Corinth preaching Christ died for our sins and we are saved if we believe this.....1 Corinthians 15 1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2By which also ye are saved, IF ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

[@SamOwenI]

Tito Carlos he's talking to people who believe the gospel there...

[@titocarlos7896]

SamOwenI ...they didn't believe it untill it was preached to the people of Corinth...then they received it and stand on that gospel. And they weren't saved untill they believed that gospel...these were not breathen at the time of the preaching .....now they are bretheren and he is reminding them of the gospel he preached to them before they were breathen or believers.

[@stephenmartin2409]

Christian Universalism is the only consistent Biblical answer to their questions.

[@bobfree1226]

H0w can i be a non calvanist and be elect? i trusted in Christ in my early years an i stiil do. i made a choice didnt i? or was i given irresistable grace and forced to believe . did God decree me to be a non calvanist? This is All why im not a calvanist.

[@The_Iron_Disciple]

Faith is a gift (BY GRACE through faith) given by God GRACIOUSLY. Which means we not only do not naturally have faith but we receive it apart from our own merits. The real heart of the issue is this: Why do some believe and some don’t? The calvinist would argue because God grants faith to whom He wishes. The arminian would argue something that implies you can make faith on your own and that it is not truly a gift from God. Brown is right to argue that believers are saved by necessity and must therefore be elect, but he is completely wrong to say that they are not a predetermined group of people. There is no way to consistently interpret scripture with that framework. If God does not predestine His elect and administers through the gracious giving of the Holy Spirit, where in this theology is their room for the necessarily INTENTIONAL gifting of faith? He can only be as intentional with who He gives it to as He is with who He does NOT give it to. Therefore, God predestines to eternal life. By necessity double predestination is biblical. Not that He has to create any “fresh evil” or coerce any into sin at all: we are naturally children of wrath under the federal headship of Adam. But thankfully, Jesus Christ saved His people by dying on the cross and raising from the dead. And they are the “many” that Jesus ransomed, as it is written in all four gospel accounts. By necessity, the atonement must be limited by design (not in power, but in application).

[@mr.jollybear5180]

Very good point by Dr. James White. If God is not willing that anyone should not perish without exception what about those people who had never heard the Gospel? God created them knowing that they will never hear the Gospel and thus perish, so how is it that God is not willing that anyone should perish without exception? The thing is, we are trying to approach God's reasons for things He does and we fall short and always will. Who is to say that God does not some how efficaciously apply His grace to them or to the unborn children or even the children that die young without ever hearing, understanding or receiving the Gospel? The Judge of the earth does as it pleases Him. He is Sovereign, He predestines, and He does as He pleases. It's His only prerogative.

[@Psalm119-50]

I question Dr. Browns own salvation! For even Paul, was confident in his salvation! Philippians 1:6 Be CONFIDENT, of this very thing.............

[@Romans-cn8mw]

James, how do you reconcile Romans 1? God gave all the ability to recognize and believe in God. Atheist deny Him while clearly seeing awesome design done by an almighty creator. So, all Gentiles prior to the Church are lost? Or maybe worse, some are saved even though they lack any faith or belief in God.

[@markwhite5926]

Calvinism is an unbiblical Philosophy!

[@filips1218]

main issue with calvinists: They think very one-dimentional, kinda like muslims.

[@Shiloh3498]

filip s : The main issue with Arminianism is it ignores the Bible and appeals to human emotion and philosophical arguments.

[@timdodenhoff7942]

Dr. Brown doesn't make sense.

[@Reformados.-yi3fy]

Michael Brown just showed his ignorance about the topic. This debate was not at the level of Dr. James White.

[@johnnyllooddte3415]

ahaha i love it when you MIX 5 pointer philosophy into Bible verses.. show me a SINGLE VERSE thats says.. CHRIST ONLY DIED for the elect..there isnt one.. show me a verse that says i only died for my a sheep ...1 John 2:1-2: "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father-Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

[@profetik777]

Worst debate host evverrrrr. Lol

[@bobfree1226]

So it goes out to every tribe.tongue and people but not the ALL. well i dont believe that at All.

[@bobfree1226]

Why would GOD have to send men to Hell,to obtain Glory. He planned it all didnt HE Mr White.Jesus said if you Love only those that love you,where is your REWARD! God already had the Glory.Jesus said Glorify me Father with the Glory WE had before the foundation if the World. Calvanism has big issues-Hyper Calvanism is insanity.