THE AURA OF HORUS! IS HE STILL THE GREATEST PRIMARCH?

[@runningbat1174]

"I was never a son of Horus. That was never my place. I am and remain a Luna wolf. A warrior for the truth of humanity. The imperial truth."- (Probably) Loken one of the last Luna wolfs

[@hyukin56ace50]

Loken was legit one of my favorites. Such a badass and really a great well developed character! So badass he was offered one of the first positions as a grey knight and turned it down to continue to hunt the sons of Horus

[@runningbat1174]

I always liked Loken as a concept he questioned things and chose to do the right things as needed. You always knew where you stood with him and he had a real sense of honour. I never knew what happened to him and how long after the heresy he lived bit he is a well developed character.

[@DominusNox106]

I love Garvi as a character. He's the man.

[@malcador]

"Loken nodded again. His feeling of being unnerved had returned, sharp and unwelcome. This was a ritual, and it smacked dangerously of the practices of corpse-whisperers and spiritualists. The entire process seemed shot through with superstition and arcane worship, the sort of spiritual unreason Sindermann had taught him to rail against. He felt he had to say something before it was too late. ‘I am a man of faith,’ he said softly, ‘and that faith is the truth of the Imperium. I will not bow to any fane or acknowledge any spirit. I own only the empirical clarity of Imperial Truth.'"

[@PKM9107]

“Horus was the first found primarch” *Alpharius wiping the screen doing a John Cena impression* “Are you sure about that?”

[@xiaoyu1949]

emphasis on found

[@thomascrabtree]

@@xiaoyu1949 Alpharius (who later changes his name to Omegon) was the first to be found, and kept in the Imperial Palace.

[@djc1375]

He never left

[@sm2649]

@@djc1375 He was scattered just like the others but to Terra. The emperor did "find" first him after the scattering

[@trajanfidelis]

Hydra Dominatus

[@moliu3663]

he may be a top fighter, general, diplomat, but was he the fastest? - Jaghatai Khan

[@LeónSantiaguino]

Boom

[@jyounginmk777]

This might become heresy, because of how true it might be.

[@jimvenanzio6561]

is his legion's number "5"?

[@LeónSantiaguino]

@@jimvenanzio6561 oh Yes, they aré the fifth legión.

[@tomasmisek5598]

*magnus proceeds to aninhilate a fleet with his brain, "what was that about greatest primarch now"

[@vinnypopadop]

Honestly I think, horus was made to be the glue to keep everyone together. His chrisma was supposed to keep the brothers in check. But chaos twisted his gift and used it to shatter the imperium. Only horus could have rallied half the of leigons and the primarchs. None of the others save sanginuis could have come anywhere close.

[@yukihikari9281]

Sanguinius and Angron literally can do what he did better. Angron was a empath literally someone capable to calm and mend peoples emotions. That's why him falling and getting the nails is such a powerful F you to the Emperor from the chaos gods. They destroyed one of his mediators for the rest of the brothers. Meanwhile Sanguinius via charisma alone outstrips Horus. Not mentioning how his other brothers saw him and how he could bring out the best in all of them.

[@ebagigwhite]

@@yukihikari9281 angron should have been aborted, he is as useless as abandon How could you compare him to Horus or sanguineous?

[@Erika_Redmark]

@@ebagigwhite he wasn’t meant to be an anger driven monster though. As Yuki noted, he was made to be empathetic, his powers were those of understanding others pain and taking away their despair. It is noted how horrified the emperor is to discover that the butchers nails have been forced upon him by the slavers when his first words to Angron are “what have they done to you!?” It’s implied to be a cruel irony that the primarch that was made to be the kindest and most empathetic of all becomes a broken monster thanks to the actions of those he was supposedly created to save

[@Khyberization]

@@yukihikari9281 Sanguinius had serious flaws as well, besides the mutation, which challenged the imperial truth. He could also be corrupted through the failings of his geneseed. And as you pointed out Angron was broken. None of the other Primarchs, when you start picking away at their flaws, was as well suited for warmaster, a job that required ambition, a strong will, some hard decisions that required some inhuman acts, charisma, and the list goes on.

[@yukihikari9281]

@@Khyberization We know that the Emperor made his sons with certain traits. I don't consider Sanguinius 'es wings a mutation. Especially if you read The Angel novel with the proto primearch. Or the more recent books with the King in Yellow. That has marines with wings similar to Sanguinius'es.The only real flaw you could say Sanguinius had is him caring too much for what others saw him, and fearing that he will disappoint the Emperor and leave a 3rd empty plinth under the Hegemon. His falling to chaos flaw being the love for his sons is better than Horus being a petulant child that threw aside all cautions and advice of his brothers that wanted to help him. And allowed himself to be a sock puppet to the forces of Chaos.

[@lincolnosiris3665]

That thumbnail is priceless. He looks like a vacuum cleaner salesman from space lol

[@karlmayhle05]

More like mr clean

[@Scott_the_Celt]

Mr. Clean in terminator armor

[@worldeater2414]

Does that make Mortarian, Mr. Unclean?

[@Scott_the_Celt]

@@worldeater2414 YES THAT'S PERFECT 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@joem7641]

Don't buy the extended warranty

[@lockiet7227]

Side note, Malcador putting Horus in his place is one of the most underrated moments ever. Dude was lowkey doing some crazy shit respective to his "power"

[@mrivieccio]

The uncle was a true boss

[@dustincieslik5397]

I mean no one should sleep on malcador dude tanked a hit from lorgar for fuck sake

[@aethertech]

@@dustincieslik5397 It's Logar, a starved sewer urchin without any limbs could tank a hit from Logar.

[@HammarPwnsYourFace]

Lorgar might have been “great” and a “primarch”. Please remember, he was also the guy that lost a foot race to a legless dude.... 😂. Bar is not really that high.....

[@HammarPwnsYourFace]

Lmao 😂 . Beating Lorgar is like saying you won a fist-fight vs a paraplegic guy...some times, the less you say, the smarter you come off as...

[@novusnocturnm]

That smile, those eyes, that jawline, that butt chin. XD

[@Fatties09]

💀💀💀🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@silent0089]

and has voice of Patrick Warburton

[@novusnocturnm]

@@silent0089 haha yes.

[@IgorS.]

He is like gigachad

[@Reaper419Darkangel]

Hehe ... Butt chin

[@tramico96]

"I am...I have been....underestimated....again..." - Perturabo

[@yeoldchief7711]

Perturabo lacked good relationship skills, he was meant to be a rod of iron and failed at being that.

[@dramsac17]

@@yeoldchief7711 Horus himself relies on Perturabo more than anyone else. He even states that he cannot take Terra without Perturabo. And even Horus never appreciates him or the work he does.

[@CSSVirginia]

Iron within! Sulking without!!!

[@kingbaldwiniv5409]

No, trust is Pete, you haven't.

[@barahng]

@@yeoldchief7711Spoilers for Hammer of Olympia in this post, but you've probably read it. He was indeed a rod of iron, and that was his greatest weakness. His uncompromising nature, cold rationality, and ego is what led to him always choosing the hardest path in battle, decimating his own legion, razing Olympia, killing his sister. The shame and guilt of which drove him mad and left him susceptible to the whispers of Horus. And of course the abandonment issues. The entire Heresy could've been prevented if Big E wasn't such a shit dad.

[@adamgardner3768]

To me, Horus will ALWAYS be first amongst equals, Chosen Son, Warmaster and Arch Traitor a sympathetic Villain and amazing character.

[@em4rtzz]

The Lion will always be first ;)

[@z8ttov]

@@em4rtzz first by birth, but we all know who was First Among Equals though (spoiler: it’s not Lion)

[@em4rtzz]

@@z8ttov hah true.. great book btw!

[@schwegburt3002]

I think it's the classic case of Horus not being the best at anything, but being damn near the best at everything which made him Warmaster. That and he could manage the unruly ones like Angron and Curze. The top brothers merely required a sound objective and idea, they'd manage themselves but balancing the dynamics of every brother was the issue.

[@TheFedaykiin]

Pre 7th Edition Lore: Horus and his legion were the best at everything and he deserved to be Warmaster Post 7th Edtion Lore: Horus and his legion are average warriors whose charisma hide a ruthless and arrogant streak, Lion should of been Warmaster

[@khayon9302]

Horus really need some love in his own primarch novel. But in the novel false gods Horus tells petronella ( I was appointed war master simply because i was the one who most embodied the emperor's needs at the time )

[@idkusernameeggatron4652]

In horus rising (first book by dan abnett) I think he said he was chosen cause the emperor didn't have any other plans and had to depart

[@Leptospirosi]

This means that Horus was humble enough and ground based to understand this simple concept. He didn't craved for the command: he wanted to fight alongside his father.

[@internetpleb4854]

Pre heresy Horus will always be my favorite primarch. It what makes his fall so much more tragic. 40k fans are too quick to forget the proud and honorable legacy of the 16th legion Luna wolves. They forget the names of the most noble and honorable grandsons of the emperor like Yagatan Cruze Tarik Torgaden and Garvel loken in action to the thousands of loyalists marines of traitor legions that fought and died on Istvan.

[@MrInzombia]

luna wolves and horus impressed even the emperor.

[@Furzkampfbomber]

Loken is one of my favourite characters in Wh40k and he is, amongst other things, because unlike Horus and the rest of the Lunar Wolves, he decided to not give into insinuations that promised glory and power. He was better and worth more than Horus and the rest of his legion combined. To be honest, I give a crap what Horus and other traitors might have done before the heresy, because from the moment they've decided to defect, it simply does not matter anymore. If anyone has mit sympathy, then it's Magnus, the poor man did nothing wrong, except using the very powers his father gave him and made him so apt with and being the giant warpnerd his father made him to be. Magnus was betrayed where Horus wasn't, Magnus still only tried to serve his father, although in ill-advised ways, where Horus only wanted to serve Horus.

[@Erika_Redmark]

Wolf Lord Rho be reading so much so fast I’m starting to suspect he’s big daddy smurf in disguise

[@warchiefzeke9134]

You mean Magnus the Nerd?

[@julianpourdanesh3339]

Honestly I completely understand why Horus was chosen as warmaster he might not be the best strategist or warrior but what the emperor trusted that he could keep peace between all the primarchs

[@Nyctophora]

That's true, and he got along with just about everyone. Even when they didn't like him, he could appease them or get them to work.

[@brockwilkie6022]

It wasn't about being the best general. Title is Warmaster not greatest general. He was one of the best commanders, one of the best fighters, one of the most loved/respected. He covered a lot a bases. The imperium was winning on all fronts and besides, given the scale of war on a galaxy level, generalship was not really the most important quality for the role. Send the best general to lead the hardest campaigns. Best fighter is really a joke for the role of warmaster. Warmaster needed to manage people, from Primarchs to Astartes to regular humans of all branches. So he needed to be loved/respected and competent. Most Primarchs were just to focused on their aspect of war, no one is going to suggest the the Khan should be Warmaster. Only a few were big picture type characters. The Lion could command but really was far to secritive for such a public role. Sanguinius, while loved and respected individually, he could have lead Primarchs, but he had his own secrets holding him back and was not really known for his overall command of campaign and larger scale warfare. I hear Dorn a lot these days, however, he is defensive minded. Not a bad thing but the Imperium was about expansion at the time and Dorn is not the diplomate that Sanguinioius, Roboute, or Horus was. He is infamous for speaking his mind no matter what. Finally, I would say Roboute for the role. He and his legion are Empire builders to the core. He is a commander, maybe not the best fighter. He is chiefly an organizer, which is really what is needed at galatic scale command. He is a diplomat that can work to make the various branches of the military and civilian work harmoniously. However, he is not loved by all and just does not have to insane amount of charisma of Horus. Warmaster had to manage Primarchs as well as everyone else. Roboute, was too cold and logical to create the love needed, this really comes out in the focing of the codex. Horus had it all, he was a capable commander, a diplomat, he was loved by everyone, including his brothers, as well as respected. He could fight with the best but work with regular humans. All of the others mentioned could fulfill the role, and in effect several did. However, non had the blends of all the right features like Horus did.

[@Leptospirosi]

@@brockwilkie6022 I couldn't have said it better: Horus had what every other primarch was missing, balance, with the capacity to be left on its own without fear of creating damage and resentment. I wonder in how much better hands the Imperium would be, had the real Horus been in place of Robute in 40K. He would have managed the imperial bureaucracy so much better and with less attrition, and that's what makes a Warmaster

[@brockwilkie6022]

@@Leptospirosi Roboute manages things well, but he can still only be in one place at a time. As it is he is fullfilling both "warmaster" and Malcador's old role. With Horus you almost HAVE to love him. All Primarchs have an essence that inspires awe and obedience. Horus had that, and like the Angel, you also HAD to love him. While Roboute was respected as organizer and everything else, he was not loved on the same level because it was not his over the top gift like Horus. This is why Imperium Secondus was so dangerous to Horus. You had Roboute organizing an empirial war machine, Sanguinious to rule and inspire and be loved, and the Lion, greatest of strategists, to lead the military.

[@sergiocrowe9848]

"the emperor trusted that he could keep peace between all the primarchs" He didn't do a very good job ;-O

[@nathanbouchard2586]

Horus was able to replace the emperor in the great crusade because the emperor taught him how to use all the different primarchs and thier legions so he knew how best to deploy the Imperial forces. That's why he was warmaster

[@wolfwing189]

Corvus corax would like to know your location

[@nathanbouchard2586]

@@wolfwing189 thats my favorite primarch

[@wolfwing189]

@@nathanbouchard2586 you familiar with horus deploying the raven guard in the wrong way? Thousands of dead RG and Ended with corvus corax actually punching horus in the face 🤣

[@nathanbouchard2586]

@@wolfwing189 yes I am. I didn't say he was perfect. Who else knew how to utilize the leigions properly? Big E was training him for the position of warmaster the whole time, you can say he was groomed

[@diabloguero]

He spent decades with the Emperor alone. If that doesn't create a complex after the others are found.

[@fredf261]

Been listening to your videos for quite a while now. I don't follow the warhammer franchise but enjoy learning about it from your videos.

[@cuddlestheadorable1153]

you do follow it now XD

[@jamesmckenna4460]

@@cuddlestheadorable1153 yes, you do follow Warhammer. What's your preferred faction, Mr Fisher?

[@fredf261]

@@jamesmckenna4460 The dark angels are quite interesting. I like their primarch. I also find the necrons to be great as there's seems to be so much leeway to take the story for them. Yourself?

[@SSangsen]

Based

[@DominusNox106]

In the book Mortis we see the Emperor tell the Chaos gods "You have lied to him" and also "He is my son after all". He seems to be saying he expects Horus to see the evil of Chaos and that Horus will turn against them I think HE (big E) kept hoping Horus would snap out of it.

[@Sinlea]

I don't think Malcador bit is arrogance. Rather exactly what made him the one - he was willing to put his brothers first. He was the one to stand up to Malcador and Emperor over this. Fought for primarch brotherhood. He was the Primarch that other legions didn't mind fighting beside (most of them, anyway). Perhaps only one of this kind?

[@dolengea1523]

KILL FOR THE LIVING, KILL FOR THE DEAD - Luna Wolves on Istvann III The only moment i felt love for the warmasters legion...and they were traitors to him

[@TheDeathstyk]

It makes sense to me. Maybe he wasn't the greatest at any one thing, but he had the longest proven track record, and as far as anyone else knew he had seniority. A warmaster doesn't need to be the best, but simply know how to properly utilize and deploy those that are. It also makes his fall feel more of a logical inevitability, and fleshes out the character. Outside of the lore, it just makes sense he'd seem less amazing by comparison once we actually got to hear more about the others.

[@Firebirdwinters]

Alpharius may have been the "true" first but the part that matters, that Horus was the first to join him in leading the crusade and spent the most time at his side, still holds true.

[@PretenderCS]

I think his aura shared some simiarities to Sanguinius'. Where Sanguinius had a more radiating one waking up hope again in the ones who almost lost it, Horus could use it more subtle igniting ambition or devotion. Even astartes could get intimidated by it, Aximands tip for Loken to look on bis feet was a good example.

[@AlternicityBlogspot]

I heard an interesting description of Dr Doom over in Marvel: second best, but at literally everything, technology, sorcery, hand to hand, robotics, science.

[@darthchingaso3613]

But I always get the impression Horus was chosen for war master cuz he was the only one who at least got along with all the other primarchs. He wasn’t the best strategist or general or physically most powerful or fastest or best at defending or besieging or the most powerful but he was the most well rounded and able to relate to the rest and compete with them all.

[@JRBDWD]

Yes.

[@yukihikari9281]

Rangdan Xenocide, if Lions legion wasn't weakened he would have been the Warmaster.

[@ebagigwhite]

@@yukihikari9281 the lion is the best primarch, he should have been warmaster

[@yukihikari9281]

@@ebagigwhite On that we can agree. Loyalty is it's own reward! For The Lion!

[@tauronicodemus362]

Primarch management logically had to be priority number one in picking a warmaster. A warmaster would need to be likable, and seemingly trustworthy in the eyes of the other primarchs. So the Lion was out. He'd need be capable of utilizing each Primarch's strengths for what they they were. The Emperor specifically said something along these lines to Horus. Roboute, and Dorn were categorically incapable of this. Fulgrim too, to much lesser degree. It could only have been Horus, or Sanguinius. Horus was better at actively using his brothers(& their legokns), he had been at it since the beginning of the crusade.

[@Dezea-w8r]

Well in his final seconds of life he did say sorry and was pure again. You know before being blown into vapour.

[@Matihood1]

Wait, what? Have they actually released the book that covers the duel?

[@ironduke5058]

@@Matihood1 no its generally known knowledge that the Emperor hit Horus with such a fat Kamehamehaaaaaa!! That the Chaos Gods left his body because the amount of power surged through the body of Horus in that movement threatened to actually reach and harm them, the Chaos gods themselves. How insane is that? So for a precious few seconds, he was pure again and his mind was clear from their influence.

[@voidstrider801]

@@ironduke5058 Horus begged the emperor to slay him in that moment, while he was still himself before the chaos gods could reach into his mind again. The emperor agreed to Horus's request, obliterating his son and his very soul to prevent the chaos gods from using him as their puppet ever again. He died ashamed of his actions, and knowing he needed to die, and accepting his fate. Horus was a very tragic character, a heretic and traitor sure, but tragic all the same.

[@anthonycampos7417]

I always thought Horus was considered Warmaster simply because out of all the Primearchs, he was the greatest balanced in all forms and abilities. Psychic, Physical, Combat Prowess, Engineering, Diplomacy, Faith, Logicality, Humanitarian, etc. He didn't lean extremely hard into any 1 expertise

[@1701Emperor]

The problem with Rogal Dorn is the same as it is with Perturabo. He is a siege expert. He is arguable the best (or second best if you prefer Perturabo) siege expert in the universe. So put him in a situation like the Siege of Terra and of course he will shine, but if you put him in charge of the Rangdan Xenocide and the Imperium would have suffered immeasurably, beacause that form of warfare simply does not suit Rogal Dorn.

[@LetholdusKaspyr]

Horus was definitely in the conversation about top tier strategists, but he wasn't at the very top. He didn't need to be. He had strategists to command. He was a LEADER. That was his strength.

[@Judge_of_Anubis05]

Guilliman is still my favorite Primarch due to the fact that he's logical and practical for the most part and makes it a point to keep his emotions in check but when he's made mad his anger comes off as the most human and there's usually no over boarding with him. Other Primarchs seem to get unreasonably upset at meer misunderstandings that if they just took a moment to think would've realized this is probably not what it seems to be, but most are just too caught up in thier feelings and persons. Guilliman and Rogal are exempt from this and Sanguinius too to an extent and hell even the Khan all because they simply take the time to read the room. These are my 4 favorite Primarchs. That said all loyalist Primarchs (and Magnus) are great to me.

[@dramsac17]

Guilliman was sent to Ultramar by Tzeentch because letting him build his own little empire that he cares about more than the rest of the Imperium was the best way to keep him from getting involved in the conflict on Terra. He was almost just as much manipulated as anyone else was, and he still doesn't see it. Dorne is a jackass who's "honor" gets people killed. He is completely incapable of understanding that his perspective is limited by his hubris and thus is doomed to fail against any foe who thinks differently from what he expects. Also if Alpharius was actually leading the Alpha legion in a counter-intel operation, that all vanished when Dorne killed him. It's Dorne's fault that the Alpha legion is now a bunch of splinter cells most of which are probably true chaos. Between Dorne and Perturabo only one of them has actually murdered one of their brothers and it's not because he didn't have the opportunity. It's because all he really wants is to be understood and appreciated.

[@memento_mori6019]

I had to pick my copy of Wolfsbane back up. Where in the novel does Russ definitively beat Horus? He *spoilers* was impaled by Russ’s spear and it (very) temporarily beats the corruption inside him back, but afterwards it took the Wolves kamikazi’ng themselves in droves towards Horus to stop him from finishing Russ. The fight goes very much in the opposite direction of what you described.

[@AAblade7]

I always thought of Horus as more of the guy who’s on the most top 5’s list. He’s not the best at anything, he’s just more rounded than anyone.

[@tincano-beans2114]

The issue with horus is that most of how super amazing he is, is simply told and rarely shown.

[@chrisraposo3913]

Agree I think it's a failing in the story. I always felt they should've delved deeper into him. I had assumed he had the Charisma of Sanguinis, the Genius of Gulliman and the Strategist of the Lion and the Empathy of Vulkan. But when poisoned by Chaos it should have shown the madness play out, taking on the cruelty of Curze, rage of Angron, envy of Putty, weakness of Morty. Eventually because the gods keep fiddling with his mind and soul he is just insane.

[@JD-td6oh]

@@chrisraposo3913 damn man well said. That woulda been some master story telling…. Are you a master story teller?? Lol

[@chrisraposo3913]

@@JD-td6oh I wish, just a pleb with too much time on his hand and had his own canon taking up too much headspace lol.

[@icklemoo]

Horus was the only one who was able to play all the primarchs mentally and utilise them to the best of their abilities and synergies .... the others all suffered from ego issues/self esteem issues in varying degrees ... I like that all the primarchs in somewhat could have made a good warmaster but all would have been found wanting with getting the best out of each of the primarchs .... Horus really suffers un writing though from not having a great deal of stories about him on the actual great crusade, book 1 / 2 is literally starting off with his fall ....if we was to see more stores about him bringing planets into compliance we may see more of his actual full abilities ..... plus he was the first wrote Primarch so suffers from that as well in writing .. Regarding Alpharius , isn't the story 50/50 if he is telling the truth .. as he narrates the book by staying it starts with a lie and ends with a lie .. I am on the fence if alpharius was evening telling the truth ..

[@xzzyyy4686]

Except Corax who once struck Horus for using Raven Guard lives for glory instead of his own legions, I only just read it yesterday in Vulkan Lives but Corax had a pretty decent judge of character when it came to Horus apparently

[@icklemoo]

@@xzzyyy4686 yeah corax and Konrad could prob see through the glamour, but it still doesn't take that Horus was the only one that was able to get the most out of the 18 primarchs compared to any others that we have seen written yet .. we have to remember as well that after Davin (book2 ) Horus has died and been brought back to life changed ... one could even question if it is even the same/original Horus at this point .....so anything he does from this point on is chaos distorted .. I hope corax gets some more time in lore especially about his fleeing into the warp ....

[@tomisdead]

its the alloy of all these factors that we had in Horus, while many of his brother exceeded him in individual things, its the combination of all those things that made him the first choice primarch. i don't think in the new siege series that he has really lost anything, how all his brothers act when there in his presence still conveys how his is first among them All the Primarchs are human emotions extrapolated to demi-god levels, that's why they could fall to incredibly "human" things, like pride for example, they talk about it, i think in the Night Lords Omnibus, how to human the primarchs were and how the Astartes are not as that aspect if removed from them almost entirely, so why the Primarchs failed and how Abbadon is likely to succeed

[@fionn2220]

The way I look at is like this: **Sanguinius** -As a warrior: 10 -As a tactician: 5 -In charisma: 8 **The Lion** -As a warrior: 9 -As a tactician: 8 -In charisma: 4 **Rogal Dorn** -As a warrior: 6 -As a tactician: 7 (going up to 10 when on the defensive) -In Charisma: 4 **Guilliman** -As a warrior: 2 -As a tactician: 10 -In charisma: 2 **Leman Russ** As a warrior: 9 As a tactician: 3 In charisma: 5 **Horus** -As a warrior: 8 -As a tactician: 8 -In charisma: 10 Horus was the best of the primarchs when it came to just being able to manage anything, even if some of his brothers (including the ones who also were considered for the position of warmaster) excelled over him in specific areas. This is why I think the authors feel he deserves both in lore and in audience perception the position of 'the best' and I think thats a fair conclusion to come to.

[@skeksis1183]

I think there should be more Horus novels (Lunar Wolves/Loken) to revamp his reputation. Having Horus' biggest asset his charisma, and not him being this power house who can rival the likes of the lion, Dorn, Sanguinius, etc. would definitely make the HH feel less dramatic. His fall to chaos should feel as saddening as if Sanguinius would have fallen to chaos. It would be nice to have more to read about Horus during the great crusade, where he felt like he would be the one primarch you would want to follow over any other. Would at least give more impact into the whole betrayal.

[@skywatcheradept]

"I think there should be more Horus novels". I would gladly buy a whole series called "The Rise and Fall of Horus Lupercal" consisting of 24 books showing his growth as a character and leader and then all the difficult choices he had to face that eventually led him to attack Terra. One Primarch book will not be enough.

[@flaviomonteiro1414]

How can't we love Grimm Dark Joe Rogan?

[@Dan13l159]

I think the fact that most of the novels from GW have been after the betrayal is why Horus doesn't quite have the same aura as he did before, reading the first Horus Heresy books made me place Horus above the rest, If we had more novels from Horus before the betrayal of Istvaan, then I think we would have lamented his fall so much more even though we knew it would happen. Now that there are so many novels focusing on the other primarchs, his stature is overshadowed by others having some and more incredible heroic moments.

[@jakewu8268]

I agree

[@johanvandersandt8904]

Flaws? Id be honored if my brother stood up for me against the imperium. Even traitors are remembered so for him to stand up for them shows character.

[@thetriggeredcrusaderchosen9316]

Horus: I am the first found Primarch Alpharius: Wheeze

[@samuraijim9243]

Some primarchs have a single skill stronger than Horus but Horus has skills of all the primarchs combined with superior charisma.

[@ashbannana6286]

I somewhat disagree. I think Horus being able to keep his rebellion under control and progressing towards terra was an impressive feat. He was able to coordinate all the traitor forces even with his brother going insane around him and sabotaging him at every turn through their indifference. I would say this does put him on par with Roboute in terms of planning and organization.

[@JD-td6oh]

Went and used a credit to download ‘Wolfsbane’ on audible my lord Rho after your strong review 👌, I’m excited to start it after your sermon 🤣👑🔥

[@AlternicityBlogspot]

He was the favourite. For a long time he had the big E's attention, right. That's some teacher right there, not to be underestimated.

[@michaelcampbell6782]

The first novel of the series; Horus Rising made me love Horus, only to hate him in every other book!

[@Matihood1]

That's how far down the chaos corruption brings you.

[@Khashmonet]

Corax knew the measure of Horus.

[@RA10H56]

He did indeed! I know what to you refer, but what novel what it is?? I have 100 40k books, companions, encyclopedias and dont know where to look

[@blinkingred]

@@RA10H56 oh man I have to know when corax measured Horus.

[@RA10H56]

@@blinkingred I read the passage somewhere, but I dont know where. I know it had something to do with Horus taking credit for raven guard victories. And he had issues with alpharious/Omegon's relationship

[@NoName-lo9ym]

What did Corax say about Horus?

[@michaelclark7787]

What your thinking about is when Horus used the Raven guard Terran born legionaries in a massive assault, he used coraxs legion in a Forlorn Hope. I cannot think of the name of the battle sorry

[@DP-ym8zf]

I think the strength of Horus was that he was the best generalist. Ie, he wasn't a better strategist than Robute, siege tactician than Dorn, duelist than Sanguinius etc. But His other attributes made up for outclassing those primarch's strengths eg: Horus was a better fighter than Robute, better strategist than Sanguinius, more charismatic than Dorn etc.

[@georgedang449]

Horus was the most human among his brothers. The emperor loved him the most because he loved humanity, with all of its flaws.

[@lewishorsman2219]

Horus was the best as the Emperor made it so. Horus could single handedly do almost all of the things the other primarchs could. There’s not much the other primarchs could do exceptionally that Horus could not. Horus could plan a campaign as good as Guilliman. Could defend as good as Dorn, could break as good as Russ. Horus had all the best qualities but that also made him the worst as he had so much in himself to believe in and corrupt. None of the others despite their qualities could have been able to handle the pressure. Sanguinius could barely handle two of his brothers arguing about Curze. Try nearly 20 brothers all bickering. Horus did. He managed to qualm all of the legions and *almost* pleased everyone. He used their strengths and allayed their weaknesses. He was the best of them.

[@pentacosttb2565]

As soon as a character falls to chaos, they become boring and stupid. Horus, Fulgrim and Magnus in particular are jokes after they fall, but absolutely top tier before hand.

[@HammarPwnsYourFace]

Look here Rho, Horus *was* the first found. Alpharius was never lost. Horus greatest weaknesses was his arrogance/over confidence. The long game must be set in motion, one way or many, for a very few desired futures Hydra Dominatus, Wolf Lord ...

[@MrRussiancoma]

WLR, big fan here in Mid-Michigan,, USA! Everyday I check my fav 40k Loremasters WLR, BALDERS, LUETIN, ARCH, PETE, the Prince, 40k Theories, MAJORKILL, GRIMDARK NARRATOR, SO many more, dude you are in league with all of them and more I didn't list! Very cool, conversational, honest delivery and a sincere love of the universe. Here in the States, I struggle to find anyone who even knows about it much less knows the lore! Keep up the good work!

[@margar9021]

Just a heads up, Arch is a pretty bad dude

[@giacintopaglia5265]

@@margar9021 Are you being sarcastic?

[@MrRussiancoma]

@@margar9021 I agree, hes funny, irreverent, and knowledgeable. Very bad dude, and entertaining!😁

[@margar9021]

@@giacintopaglia5265 no hes a fascist

[@giacintopaglia5265]

@@margar9021 So do you have any media where he calls himself a fascist or is this what Contrapoints or some other article told you to think? Do you have a history of watching his content and do you even regularly follow the content he creates on this platform? My questions are sincere as is my growing disappointment in you.

[@greysad]

Hmm I think we never seen the "real" Horus. All other brothers - as far as we know - were molded by planets they had landed upon. Horus never got a chance to grow by himself. He was always in his father shadow, always watched, always evaluated. He never become Horus the Primarch, but instead Horus the little Emperor. In a way true Horus potential was stolen from him by Big E, just like butchers nails had it stolen from Angron. So is he - by current lore - special? No. He is one of the brothers. Elevated, over pressured, abandoned and, finally, broken.

[@mr.thrusty8096]

Horus Truly was the greatest of them all. His Charisma was unmatched, even compared to the Emperor. He was an absolutely brilliant tactician and commander. He was an understanding, and somewhat benevolent individual. He was a great brother, and an even better warrior. Horus Truly, was truly, the greatest of them all. And before he fell to chaos, he was perhaps the greatest individual in the entire Imperium.

[@mr.thrusty8096]

And so, so, so, so much more.

[@yeoldchief7711]

Horus was the most well rounded. Could Russ beat Horus without the Emperors spear, prehaps not, nor did he have the respected required to lead his brothers. Could Guiliman take Horus in a debate or fight, perhaps not, he definitely lacked charisma and it would not have sat well at all with many others if he was Warmaster. Dorn would not want the position, nor was he made for it, he was always going to be the praetorian. The Lion could perhaps take Horus in battle, but lacked the charisma and charm of Horus. So I comes back to who else was well rounded enough to fill the role, who else had the strength of character and leadership to lead the others but Horus?

[@markportch6526]

Horus loses a lot of control while embracing chaos, despite his increase in power he suffers deterioration in so many other ways

[@Nyctophora]

Thank you, this really made me think! I think it wasn't so much that he was the absolute best at everything, but that he could do everything all the others could do (except wizardry). The others were specialists - Horus was designed as the all-rounder, and he could adjust to any situation or any crowd. And he was sufficiently good not to suffer from Jack of all trades, master of none. I agree that he doesn't always seem like much, any more, and that has probably been a side effect of developing the other Primarchs. Perhaps it might rebalance when we get his Primarch book? It'll be interesting to see what they do with that. :) We're missing just about all of his life before he starts to go wrong, so we don't get much of a sense of Horus the man as he was meant to be.

[@MrGlobbits]

I don't think so. He was beset by doubt and jealousy of his brothers. He let himself be so easily swayed by Erebus into Chaos, there was almost no resistance. Even when Magnus showed up in the vision and told Horus this bastard is trying to drag you down, he wouldn't listen. Then used this as an excuse to turn against his father out of some misplaced sense of abandonment. And when talks broke down between him and the Interex, (granted that was Erebus fucking shit up) he cried like a little bitch; "Father....why is it SO HARRRDD!! WAHHHHHH" and just stood there taking shots plinking off his armour not knowing what to do before finally doing something.

[@ChaldeaWarmaster]

There were many reasons Horus' fall to Chaos was inevitable. As Warmaster, he had a lot of responsibilities on his plate and some of them are outside of his field of expertise. If I remember the book Horus Rising, he was constantly pestered by bureaucrats and Imperial nobility with regards to the tithes expected from worlds that are already labelled compliant. There was also some deep rooted insecurities within himself and the Astartes as to what would become of them should the Great Crusade be over. The visions he has seen confirm or at least validate those insecurities. After all, before the Astartes came, there were the Thunder Warriors who helped in the Reunification Wars and most of them were put to the sword once the wars have ended. What's to say something of that matter would happen to the Astartes fo the Great Crusade?

[@georgestauber2636]

The reason Horus was chosen was he had all qualities in equal measure. The reason he was chosen over the Lion was simple Horus was much more of a people person. The lion would've had half the legions at each others throats.

[@carloreneeventura8714]

You think Horus was the first found Primarch... *BUT ITS ACTUALLY ALFARIUS*

[@heathmcrigsby]

I am Alpharius.

[@samdixon6539]

Hydra Dominatus

[@josephweymon8020]

"Hydra Dominatus, For the Emperor, I AM ALPHARIUS!" #THREEFOLD

[@Monkeyshaman]

It's really hard having anything to measure that with as most of his stories are about getting smacked in the teeth on the long road to terra. It's kinda fine as the emperor is mostly unvoiced so him being the emperors favourite is kinda esoteric, probably intentionally.

[@Fakeplasticgergo]

Always forgot thr mention about the wolfsbane novel, Russ had that empowered spear. Not sure it gave him the upper hand, but certainly helped him.

[@Leptospirosi]

Horus was by far the most complete primarch, may be not excelling at anything specific, but by far the most human and balanced and for this reason the best choice. Johnson was nothing, may be a fighter and a field general, but the one nobody wants as governor of a galaxy he couldn't even manage his legion. Sanguinius was a symbol, but someone you use to show up and gain consensus, not to get into details and bureaucracy, while, diplomatically, he was not the guy you leave alone in the podwerkeg. Fulgrim was the diplomat, but volatile, Lorgar the voice, but too focused, Russ just a watchdog, Angron the wrath, Konrad was the fear, Dorn the stubbornness and the obsessive on details. You probably think of the Emperor as a imbecil, but I bet he was not.

[@Furzkampfbomber]

That little shadow under his nose... this _has_ to be deliberate. xD

[@Matihood1]

The fact that this video was made proves that we need more of Horus from before the heresy. Much more.

[@Nerve_Check]

One definition of leadership is getting others to do what you want even when it's not in their self-interest. I actually think you are under selling Horus. He was a choice all his brothers could agree upon. He could lead them and use them in a way no other primarch could which was his advantage over the Angel. Was he the best in any category? Probably not, but he would be in the top five of every category, arguably top three. He was able to be seen as a near peer by his brothers regardless of the task. For this reason he was the right choice.

[@bsnightmareboy]

It less that Horus was the best general its more that he was the best at using all the legions together utilizing there strengths and that most of the primarchs also love him.

[@SirKanti1]

We only really see Horus pre chaos corruption for like 2 books, it's possbile that prior to his corruption he was greater than during the herasy. I don't think any other Primarch would have been as determined, or a focused as Horus was when living up to the title of War master.

[@BrettHutton2]

Of all the lore ans reading into the 40k universe I've never came across that alphaarius was the first found primarch this video had my first ever spoiler love the videos keep them up I like hearing your views on the books and short stories

[@lionzpride7779]

Just pure chills....a masterpiece my brother

[@Ghostwolf82]

Regarding the fight between Horus and Russ: Russ had the Spear given to him by the Emperor, which gave him an advantage he would normally not have. That should be taken into consideration when comparing their skill at fighting.

[@cyberpunkfalangist2899]

Horus was also partially juiced up on chaos. That being said, Russ barely walked away from that fight, and in his own words, it could have gone either way

[@sentz1239]

Horus was groomed by the Emperor to become the Primarch that would one day betray the Imperium. The "first to be found", that secret hidden by the Emperor himself. This most charismatic of sons would bear the pressure of expectations he was never intended to deliver on. At least not in the way we expected. He was destined to break under the burden, embrace chaos, and bring together those brothers who looked up to him in conceiving the great betrayal while also being competent enough to lead the Heresy. In his final moments he understood the truth of what had happened and so the Emperor destroyed him utterly to protect a secret that would never be revealed.

[@inquisitorgarza312]

One must remember that Horus is the Primarch that Burn the Galaxy, it was Legion that brought the both salvation and ruination, it was his personality that brought the Traitors Legions together, and it was love for the Emperor that broke him for his betrayal. Horus was loved or admire by all mortals, space marines, his brothers, he was all beloved even by the Emperor and for all that his betrayal will break the Imperium.

[@charlessmith7403]

I think it's been incredible to see Horus exposed as the lore's developed. All of his secret insecurities about the other primarchs under his pride and charisma, the fact he was never truly First and the way even his own sons can see his degeneration into Chaos. Gives so much depth to the earlier lore of his fall as we can now see all the little weaknesses that he and the imperial propaganda machine were so good at hiding

[@IamLertimo]

Good discussion and a good point made, but as with the recent Alpharius book review, you seem to take it on faith that we can actually trust Alpharius' version of events! I think part of the fun of Head of The Hydra is that he is the ultimate unreliable narrator. I think it is far from certain that he really was the first found primarch.

[@savagepatty]

I wonder how much of Horus’s tactical might was actually the emperor being the war master

[@sirdanthechipwright821]

Another excellent discussion to ponder. Thanks, Rho 💜

[@Gr1mm4]

Jonathan Keeble is the benchmark for the W40k audiobooks, he's a great voice actor (I did like Toby Longworth's Horus in the first trilogy as well). Surely Horus was already at maximum Chaos level in Wolfsbane as he went to Molech to gain the powers of the 4 in Vengeful Spirit? I also don't think Alpharius being found first made much of a difference to Horus being elevated to Warmaster, Alpharius was always meant for subterfuge so it would've been right to keep him hidden.

[@Clasteau]

"Horus' fall exposes all of the cracks and flaws that were ignored before." Probably the most summarizing and significant comment in the whole dang thing.

[@LCliffhanger]

I think the First Found Primarch revelation actually adds a bit to Horus, Alpharius mentions that being the 2nd found indicated that more could be found and as a result, Horus could become a symbol and rallying point for the Imperium, it kind of Defines Horus's role all the way up to his appointment as Warmaster, he was a symbol of hope and unity for the Imperium, meaning that he was the most widely loved not just because he was the "First" found, but because it was the role he would serve as a result of being found Second, him being found gave the Emperor and the entire Imperium hope and a rallying point for the great crusade, which makes his betrayal that much more devastating as he had been turned into the "standard bearer" as Alpharius calls him and unite the Imperium but then Chaos would corrupt that standard and destroy that Symbol. And so its even more apparent that he was never the greatest of them, he was just the unifying Symbol.

[@jodi1761]

BL authors have failed two Primarchs in particular, Horus and Sanguinius. They are completely unable to portray the greatness of Horus and the rage and martial prowess of Sanguinius. Many readers then disregard text that simply state that Horus was unmatched etc (literally the beginning of many HH novels). They feel that if it is not portrayed in action it has not happened. And one more thing... Horus was way more charismatic than Sanguinius. Sanguinius was more beautiful, radiant, humble, humane, sensitive but also more aloof, detached, serious and sad. Horus could relate to humans way better, he joked around, he laughed and he made people feel important when it suited his purpose. That is charisma!

[@darthknight1]

"In charisma he was unmatched" .... and yet Sanguinius had more charisma and lacked the inferiority complex (ie massive jealousy and arrogance). As far as charisma is concerned, I think his popularity with the public and the other legions also owes a lot to his being the first discovered and being the sole primarch for thirty whole years... a huge gap. He was the sole prince and sole heir to the Imperium for that length of time. That's also thirty years of bonding with dad, and possibly thirty years of the Emperor considering Horus as his sole surviving son. As far as generalship, his legion surpassed all others largely because it had thirty years of primarch leadership before the first of any other primarchs took up generalship of the legions. Was Horus the greatest strategist? Maybe, but his name is almost always mentioned alongside the Lion and sometimes Guilliman also for this plaudit. And the Lion nearly rivaled Horus' victories with Horus having a forty or so year head start. The Lion has a charisma problem, but I'm not nominating him the "Greatest of all the Primarchs." Dorn is a great commander, a great fighter, a great planner, but he isn't exactly mister charisma either. My money is on Sanguinius as he seems the most objectively outstanding and idealistic like the Emperor of all the primarchs. As for Alpharius being the first found primarch, again, Lexicanum points out that Alpharius stated that he was lying about that.

[@josephweymon8020]

Lol, Alpharius lies about everything; even to himself. 😂

[@littleconan7929]

Horus was not an outstanding primarch on several aspect. Not the best warior, not the best tactitian, not the best strategist, not a dedicated way of fighting like the white scars, not the most cunning. But he was good at all those aspect. On top of that, Horus has the political sens, and outstanding leadership. And by leadership I do not only mean charisma, I mean he knows what it means to be a leader and what has to be done to be obeyd. Horus had NO enemy among its brothers, he knew how to handle them. I don't know if all of this makes him "the greatest primarch", but clearly the best choice as a warmaster.

[@Anxo735]

god I want a 'what if' story of Angron without the butcher's nails and Sanguinius or even a canon with the nails between the two. No fighting. Just talking. Maybe a moment of clarity for Angron with Sanguinius there to talk to, just some sort of insight into the character that could have been could be a truly moving moment for the two even more so.

[@craynak]

Alpharius being the first and Omagon being the last truly found firsts the Alpha legion. It also explains how the brothers swapping places makes the other Primarchs unable to truly grasp who ‘Alpharius’ is. I love the Wolf Kings offhand remark about being surprised that there is only one of them being soo cool too,

[@MrFallenone]

Horus was the opposite of the Lion when it comes to people skills.

[@kingbaldwiniv5409]

But the Lion did very well in the courts and halls of Terra (Russ' primarch novel) and he demanded so much fear and respect that even Horus shut his mouth when rebuked (Angels of Caliban).

[@MrBoosterfy]

@@kingbaldwiniv5409 The Lion is a no nonsene kind of guy

[@Firebirdwinters]

The Lion was created to be the best general of all the Primarchs. The Emperor created him to have the kind of charisma ideal for leading soldiers to war, but not the kind for organizing equals or finding compromise. The Lion wouldn't have been able to keep his brothers in line without their father present just as he wouldn't have been able to convince half the Imperium to rebel. The qualities that made Horus the ideal Warmaster are the same ones that made him the only person who could organize half the military and industrial forces in the Imperial into a unified rebellion.

[@padraigg7147]

Your support of the Wolves has not gone unnoticed. From the heart of the legion in Horus and him being missunderstood to the undervalued nature of the space wolves. The name Wulf Lord suits you.

[@padraigg7147]

Ps: Is horus the embodiment of the Emporers feelings for the rest of his sons? He was always a secondary paternal figure in my eyes. .who needed to either fall and gather the brother primarchs and oust the traitors. .or nothing. He was always acting in some paternal sense (Love? 14 being Valentines number?) Discuss.

[@nathanstruble2177]

I think the argument of "should Horus have been the Warmaster" have the habit of glossing over the flaws in all the other Primarchs. Lion 'El was far too secretive, Guilleman's focus too much on the interior, same with Rogal. Sanguinius suffered from the Black Rage, Vulkan was too concerned with the citizenry, Ferus wasn't concerned enough with them. I could go on, as I'm sure we all could. Horus wasn't the best at anything, but that was what made him the right choice. Plus he was almost always in the top 5. But not being a defensive expert meant he could be an aggressive assaulter when the situation called for it. Not being a heartless siege machine meant he could put up a stubborn defense when it was needed. Not being a logistics master means he can stretch himself thin when the reward warrants the risks. He can make strategic sacrifices and plant the flag on the hill as needed, in a way most similar to the Emperor's own idea's. Horus may not be the best at any one thing, but his time with the Emperor makes him the most heavily influenced and thusly trusted to act in his sted.

[@kelman727]

Black Rage is post heresy...

[@nathanstruble2177]

Right, it's the Red Thirst. Whatever, massive genetic flaw is the reason, not the specific one

[@MrPiccolop]

I've always been of the belief that GUilliman was always the true heir to the Throne. The emperor was a freak of nature. The primarchs Demi god's. But human enough. And GUilliman the most humane and sensible and capable of them all. Us Tau would be happy to sign a peace treaty with GUilliman at the head of humanity. Diplomacy points +10.

[@Matihood1]

This makes me wonder: Have there been any interactions between Guilliman and the Tau since his return?

[@MrPiccolop]

@@Matihood1 not sure. Was hoping some literature buff would say 😆

[@harryallen1175]

Was alpharius actually lost in the first place? If not then horus could technically be first found.

[@eichler721]

Also it was hinted at in the beginning books that Horus was not a match for Sanguinius. On the world Murder its stated that Horus had to push himself like never before to keep up with Sanguinius on the battlefield, that he loved fighting next to him cause nobody made him push harder. Sanguinius was a beast even in the first novels most just don't remember.

[@skywatcheradept]

"Horus beat me without even setting eyes on me." - Sanguinius at Beta-Garmon in "Titandeath" by Guy Haley.

[@eichler721]

@@skywatcheradept tactically Horus is better. Not in combat Murder is referring to on the field of battle itself as the two Primarch's fought together.

[@vulkansfire9234]

In all honesty I don’t like him but I think the Lion was the greatest of the primarchs overall, the Angel was the greatest fighter, Guilliman the greatest strategist, Hoursus was the most charismatic. But if u had to ask me who was the second greatest overall id choose the angel then my third would be Horus. I think Hoursus was elevated so far in order to fall. As we saw with the emperors game with malcador. It makes sense that Horus would be chosen as i personally wouldn’t sacrifice the Lion or Sanguinious and Guilliman either. Horus was the best choice for a sacrifice and most believable choice for warmaster

[@olihoisl7546]

Horus wasn't the greatest warrior nor the greatest strategists in my eyes. He wasn't even the best in beurocraty like guilleman. But he was in the top primarchs in each of these things. That's what made him Warmaster. He was a jack of all trades guy and he was in the sum the best since there were only 1 or 2 in each sector that could rival him

[@timcusack9388]

The stagnation with Horus character development is the real crime in the Horus Series

[@bgcvetan]

Extra Thicc plot armor is what he has. Guilliman post Matt Ward is the greatest into my mind.

[@morgott13]

100% fact

[@lanmassingill9180]

I think Horus is still as great as he ever has been. If anything he's a part of a new dynamic with Alpharius and his legion as well as Omegon. The 20th are the Legion of secrets essentially, now maybe some of the Imperium's secrets are coming out...

[@moodyowlproductions4287]

Horus"I never wanted this......I never wanted to unleash my legions... together we banished the ignorance of old night....but you betray me....you betrayed us all....you stole power from the gods...and lied to your son's....mankind only has one chance to prosper.....if you will not seize it....THEN I WILL....so let it be fought.....and from the sky's of Terra to the Galactic rim....LET THE SEAS BOIL....LET THE STARS FALL.... THOUGHT IT TAKES THE LAST DROP OF MY BLOOD..I WILL SEE THE GALAXY FREE ONCE MORE..AND IF I CAN NOT SAVE IT FROM YOU FAILURE FATHER.....THEN LET THE GALAXY...BURRRRRRRRRRRN"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@bluephoenixplays9824]

Dorn or Gulliman is the greatest where Horus was being insecure about Gulliman being resentful.

[@Judge_of_Anubis05]

And the irony is that Guilliman looked up to him and was in full support of Horus being appointed warmaster

[@skywatcheradept]

"There could be no better Warmaster than Horus" - Rogal Dorn in "Horus Rising" by Dan Abnett