The Best Villain in Warcraft History

[@Ar1AnX1x]

"it isn't you that Thrall loves, only the memory of your father" that quote must have cut through Garrosh because it true

[@psylentsage]

I feel like that line really started the villain arc 😂

[@Max-ej4oh]

Garrosh did the only massive thing which was actually giving the Orcs serious infrastructure.

[@HiddenEvilStudios]

Garrosh built the Autobahn.

[@mekolayn]

@@HiddenEvilStudios Garrosh made the trains run on time

[@JoseAnd97]

MAKE ORGRIMMAR GREAT AGAIN!!

[@Max-ej4oh]

And nobody minded the changed but embraced it, even Thrall when he came back to "visit" didn't say anything but probably thumbed up. Even he was probably tired of his own city.

[@aditghifari5039]

I think in another path he becomes a famous architect working for the progress of the horde even got invited to give speech about infrastructure in various places (The alliance aknowleddged since Jaina was there when the horde wasnt advanced). though still hotheaded, now he learned to understand about situation first, then punch later.

[@ChainOfHades]

My favorite thing about Garrosh is this seemingly final revelation in his final cutscene in Shadowlands. One of the first things we hear said to him from Greatmother Geyah is, "Your choices are your own." The last thing he claims to Thrall before he dies is, "You made me what I am," and Thrall, MIRRORING HIS GRANDMOTHER, tells him that he chose his own destiny. And in the time that he's in the Shadowlands, he obviously FINALLY realizes that he did make those choices; he did make himself who he became. But then he DOUBLES DOWN, and says he'd do it all over again. Best. Fucking. Villain.

[@Mediados]

I respect any villain that truly believes in his way until the very end.

[@Mediados]

@@Smokecrackerryday Look I like Garrosh as much as the next Orc, but he was far from "purest intentions". He started with actually good points like that the Night Elves have been refusing to trade for ages, they forced the Horde's hand. But when he started fighting his own people with the Trolls and Tauren, that went too far.

[@54032Zepol]

Hell yeah! Where do I sign up??!

[@ziephel-6780]

@@Mediados Especially taking the 2nd war with the alliance in Tides of Darkness into account. The Amani were beneficial to the Horde, even when they were backed into a corner, the Trolls would've been screwed without the Horde. And they would've won if it weren't for Gul'dan's thirst for power. Garrosh essentially became similar to Gul'dan in his ambition and thirst for domination. Except Gul'dan died a coward.

[@the_grim_gamer3039]

​@@MediadosHe still had pure intentions though. Not defending him but think about it from his perspective. Cairn tried to kill him and Garrosh was tricked into cheating and into killing him. Him being tricked led him to be paranoid. He likely believed that due to Cairn's death the tauren may betray him. Therefore causing him to be highly distrustful of most Tauren. Was he justified in his constant fights with them? No. Is it understandable why he may have thought the way he did which led to his actions? Yes. Similar situation with Vol'Jin. Vol'Jin publically threatened to kill him. Garrosh knows how loyal the trolls are to their leader. Not justifying his actions with him constantly arguing and undermining trolls and Tauren. However you can see where he was coming from. He genuinely thought they might betray him and the rest of the horde due to the actions of their leaders.

[@Smigglesdigy]

It's always amusing to me that Thrall put Garrosh, the known war-hungry military general in a place of power literally known as the "Warchief", then got surprised when Garrosh started doing war things.

[@SmilingJack65]

While I'm never going to be so silly as to call Garrosh a pacifist, the recent Cataclysm Classic experience has shown me that Garrosh is not alone in the faults that led to the Alliance and Horde clashing again. Did he expand into Night Elf territory? Sure, he built upon Horde outposts that already existed. However, if you play through the Durotar and Barrens questlines, you find out that the Alliance actually executed an unprovoked invasion that involved them razing and looting multiple villages. Additionally, you find military documents showing they'd planned to go all the way to Orgrimmar and burn it to the ground too. The Taurens in particular were victims of this as Taurajo Outpost was razed to the ground in an attack that specifically targeted their weak and their young. Lastly, it makes me question Jaina's outrage over Theramore when it was CLEARLY being used as the staging ground for said invasion. While I get her being torn apart about the deaths of her people. What I don't get is her surprise at being attacked when all these military operations were streaming out of HER harbor. Hell, they have a big ass road going through Dustwallow from Theramore and going into the Barrens. With that said, I don't see how she could continue to cry that Theramore was a neutral party to this conflict. So all that said, while everyone can see that Garrosh was just itching for a fight, the Alliance clearly gave him every justification to wage war on them. Not only did they have a monopoly on resource rich lands, but they invaded their territory and slaughtered his people. While Garrosh was a huge asshole, even at the end, he still truthfully believes that everything he did was for the Horde.

[@DTrain2000]

So literally the who killed hannibal meme but instead its "Who made this monster?"

[@badrinath5306]

​@@SmilingJack65 yes. Varian was literally a skin colored Garrosh with Thralls backstory. But blizzards likes alliance and not horde so they gave the respect other people lesson Garrosh learnt at Stonetalon to Varian instead in the wokfheart novel and forgot garrosh had a charector. Remember Garrosh knew thrall brand of honor cause Saurfang taught him. The alliance did make military based but they weren't reinforced by Theramore. If I recall Dalaran being used in such a way was what passed Jaina off. When Garrosh made his intention in invading Kalimdor clear was when the whole thing started. Dalaran which was also neutral aided theramore. The alliance had coastal bases but these existed since classic and existed even after Thermore and Garroshs death he infact did nothing abt them. Toraho is the biggest sign that blizzard hated the horde. It was a slaughter of unprecedented scale. An unprovoked and undeclared attack where countless died and surviving civilians were sent to be killed and eaten by Quilboars. By this point blizz had to have fired everyone from warcraft 3 team cause no one understood the Horde r Jaina in the writing team. It was conflict that always shaped the horde since the day the orcs came together on Draenor to fight the Dranei. Their bonds with their allies whether it was facing the sea witch at the former darkspeare isles r the centaur with the tauren r the orcs facing down the warsong clan to save them from the legion at the end of the campaign with the help of the trolls and tauren. It was their aid in former battles that formed a pact of honor of sorts one that bound them to one another and the story writers threw all of that away.

[@dawn4383]

​@@SmilingJack65 Jaina was still willing to try to compromise after the bombing of Theramore. It was the theft of the divine bell by some sunreavers that made her lose her shit, which was... Extremely small by comparison.

[@JoshSweetvale]

Just as Garrosh is a born warmonger, Thrall is willfully blind to people's flaws. He's the 'lalala I can't hear you' kind of leader.

[@Blundabus1337]

Funfact: Garrosh wasnt corrupted by an old god. He was actually fully in control of himself even when he was 50% grape jelly. That's some willpower there.

[@StefanFlyer]

Yeah that's brilliant. He doesn't care so much that even old god's corruption can't overtake his mind. For him it is only power. A tool in his goal. HIS power and HIS tool. Only taking, not giving. So no doubts he could be the greatest hero in other timelines.

[@Blundabus1337]

@@StefanFlyer He is one of the greatest heroes in other timelines, in fact, every other timeline, this is mentioned in the warcrimes book. This also debunks the idea that shadowlands is the end-all-be-all afterlife for everyone, because in the Shadowlands raid he is still our version of garrosh(him calling thrall a coward for example). Shadowlands is not canon and I'm tired of pretending it is.

[@StefanFlyer]

is there any appearance of at least one alternative character in sl? Can't remember, probably not. I think this take seat on the same shelf as "legion is infinite and exists through all the universes". Shelf known as "there is no confirmation on this in the game and vice versa the content of the game actually contradicts this". I believe they wanted to do something with this but in the end they didn't. So it's easier to just drop those ideas and see Legion and SL as verse locked things. Nothing to explain with SL and with Draenor we can say that after escape Gul'Dan tried to "call" his Legion but instead was answered by MU one, because previously Dark Portal connected planet with MU and so kinda snatched it from native (for a period of exp).

[@Bahtou1]

majin vegeta vibes

[@emperoraugustus4047]

Old gods try corrupt garrosh only to be met by a Uno-flip card

[@matus19971]

Garrosh is a perfect representation of why the Jailer failed. Garrosh was built up as a character since TBC and when he lost himself in his fury and lost sight of what is best for the future of Orcs by sticking to traditions and the culture of war, it was not a rushed process. Sure, it wasn't perfect, but it was leagues above what Zovaal was supposed to be.

[@tnvmark2173]

It's even more embarrassing that we had another villain that was introduced and faced in a single expansion, but unlike the Jailer, he was built upon from the massive world building in that same expansion and was deemed as a fan favorite. Lei Shen was such an awesome antagonist.

[@matus19971]

@@tnvmark2173 very true. Completely forgot about him. The reason why Lei Shen works is because he is a living being that turned into a force of nature. You see the history of who his people are, why he rose to power, why he lost his life. You have all you need to know to determine who he was and why he needs to be brough down. If you had to say why you need to defeat him, you would say "well, he is a megalomaniac with a superiority complex, by which he determined that he is better than others and that his kind should be the ones to inherit the world of the Titans, that everything they do is right and the pandaren, as well as other races, are okay to be enslaved because we are of a lesser race". Now let us look at Zovaal. You have nothing until the very end. Prior to that, all you know is that he is a "titan++ threat" and that he "orchestrated everything!". That is a notion that works well if it is set up. Not so much here. Anyways, there is merit to his character and you could do a LOT of stuff with him but it was an utter failure due to the lack of involvement, presentation, setup, foreshadowing, etc. In the end, he was just a cartoonish villain that people could not relate to. Lei Shen is someone whom you can understand. Why did he come to this conclusion? His people, his father especially, were weak. The "gods"? WEAK! Look at what he did with Ra-den. It is only right that someone will pick up the pieces and fulfil the duty of the "caretaker of the world". Conquest was his call and he did what he did for reasons he believed to be just. Similarly, Garrosh wanted the best for the Orcs and keep their traditions. To not lose sight of who the were, and in such he forgot to look at who they could become. Arthas, gave up everything to protect his Kingdom, damning his soul in the process and even then, the Scourge was an army that was never unleashed in its full potential and when he faced the chance to strengthen his ranks with strong champions, he took it because he could create and army of death that could repel the Void. Zovaal.....had plans. That is what it boils down to. Yes, there is more to his story but with how little we actually know and how badly it was presented, the only memorable things about him were his nipples and the fact that he had more hair than Asmongold.

[@subaruuuu1]

there's no jailer, it's all fake after the start of lk

[@DiabloTommaso]

Yep Shadowlands was rushed mess. And that s a pitty. There are great ideas never developed proprely. Dk anduin... the Jailer himself.

[@liukang3545]

fuq the jailer hes not a part of the original lore l0lw, was just something the cucked writers came up in haste

[@TheMexRAGE]

Stonetalon Mountain's Garrosh is kinda proof of how fragmented the questing writing and design team and "main plot" writing team are, this is kinda of a problem that have been there from the start and it still there today

[@Linus1871]

ST Mountain Garrosh is the kind of Garrosh they said exists in a different timeline where he is the greatest warchief of all time. Instead of giving us this garrosh they gave us Stalin Garrosh and be like yea, but in this other timeline he is the goat.

[@MrChaos529]

@@Linus1871 Fuck me if that isn't a huge middle finger to all Garrosh fans out there. Like you said, Instead of providing us that "Best Warchief Ever" version of Garrosh, where we can have moments like Garrosh and Varian fighting in Broken Shore against the Legion, they instead went like "oh yea, the best version of Garrosh is out there, its just that he's an asshole in this one because fuck you, thats why."

[@duh_istine]

@@Linus1871 Hitler Garrosh*

[@NostraDavid2]

Not unlike Bethesda. Actually no, Bethesda is worse ATM, quality wise.

[@gabrielaugusto3711]

There is a dev interview that says Stoletalon was a miscommunication, some of them believed Garrosh were going to take a "Good" path

[@Domdrok]

In the final duel, you can hear his voice briefly break/falter with emotion when he's shouting, showing those previous layers of him still deep down in there.

[@thethrilla80]

Garrosh did nothing wrong

[@HiddenEvilStudios]

That voice crack was so incredibly well done. Gods, I miss the tattooed meathead every single day.

[@bigbangrafa8435]

It's really sad. But ultimatelly, I don't think It would be fair to blame Thrall for what he became. Garosh COULD have been like Thrall and Vol'Jin, he could have been a great leader that guided the Horde to greatness. But he kept making the wrong choices again and again, learning nothing from his mistakes. His pride was just too big, he wasn't able to put the needs of his people above his own ego, and nothing shows that better than Warlords of Draenor. After killing Kairoz Dormu, Garosh got something that very few people get in life: a second chance. He could have built a completly new life to himself on alternate Draenor, but no, he insisted on his mistakes and literally crawled back through space and time to conquer Azeroth. He is a product of his own choices, willfully ignoring the good advice he got along the way, so he cannot blame anyone other than himself.

[@Cheebzsta]

@@bigbangrafa8435 This is a great point! Thank you! Yes, Thrall has an uncomfortably large part in enabling Garrosh's rise, did legitimately drop the ball in being Garrosh's mentor/leader and the fandom's criticism of his mistakes is warranted, but... Warcraft has a lot of apologists for characters who are unambiguously the bad guys, usually because they can't grasp that villains are still villains even if they have a few redeeming qualities, and you hit the nail on the head as to why: Every time he is *really* presented with a choice, he chose the wrong one. Arthas has this too. There's a lot of debate over the morality of Stratholme. I'm less sympathetic to 'ends justify the means' kinds of arguments so I don't give Arthas a pass on that one but regardless the character was so arrogant that he'd never really stop to consider whether the things that feel right actually *are* right. For Garrosh that's his chance to start over in alt-Draenor but goes and restarts the whole damned thing. For Arthas it's when he receives word he's been recalled by royal decree while in Northrend so he hides that from his forces, betrays his men by hiring mercenaries to do it and then betrays the mercenaries to cover up his lies. Both situations prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that both characters are wilfully shit-heels even if we love to have them for it. :)

[@zachariastsampasidis8880]

​@@Cheebzstathinking of the world as *bad guys vs good guys* even fictional ones is laughable

[@ShadowTheHedgehogCZ]

I think you have the Garrosh Cairne duel wrong. If I remember correctly, Cairne absolutely dominated Garrosh, to the point that Garrosh already believed himself dead. But then by luck Garrosh managed to scratch Cairne with his axe. That wouldn't do anything to Cairne if it wasn't poisoned. That's why Garrosh realized something was wrong when he suddenly won.

[@hyperstimmed]

Correct. He was getting his ass kicked until the poison set in, and then he was pissed off that it was poisoned because it meant a dishonourable victory

[@stankobarabata2406]

People often forget Cairne is a bulldozer lol. Tauren in general are big, but Cairne is one of the biggest Tauren to have lived, and probably rivaled Huln Highmountain himself. And despite their gentle nature they are absolute menaces on the field. The only reason Tauren aren't more prolific and dominant is because they're just pacifistic. With their huge strength, their strong shamanic magics, and their rugged survivalist culture that can thrive nearly anywhere, they would easily pummel many other races into submission. And I'm an Orc fan so that says something.

[@holaholahoy]

He truly did. Cairne is BIG but also very fast for his size and age and was able to dodge most of Garrosh' attacks. The only real blow Garrosh landed was an overhead strike, breaking through Cairne's runespear and lightly scratching him across the torso. Ofc, since Gorehowl was poisoned, that was it, as Cairne was paralyzed and Garrosh didn't recognize the trickery before he dealt a finishing blow. One could argue that Cairne would struggle a lot more after having his spear shattered, so he might not have actually won even if Gorehowl wasn't poisoned, but it certainly looked like Cairne was gonna just break Garrosh in half.

[@beastmaster0934]

@@stankobarabata2406 “Bulldozers” Pun intended?

[@VA_Nightshade]

Thats how it happening in Sundering.

[@Alt-o-holic47]

Garrosh is still one of my favorite characters in Warcraft history. I very much appreciate the writers for having him stay true to his character. No one was controlling him. He didn't have any ulterior motives. There really wasn't a "bigger fish" story with him. Him basically telling us that the only mistake he made was that he didn't kill everyone sooner is probably one of my most favorite things ever.

[@cabrondemente1]

He was basically bending old god powers to his will... Wait, does that make him the first Void Elf?

[@Delbraceified]

16:22 Garrosh is so powerful even his mail can punch you in the face.

[@KrogTharr]

I believe he studied with Chuck Norris at some point

[@klaussone]

Ironically Garrosh is written as as classic archetype of "weakness disguised as strength". An ancient literary device which is often misunderstood by other weak and misguided youngsters. A truly tragic tale that passes over the heads of many, particularly the ones who need it the most. One of the mayor reasons of why its so interesting. Hes started his life in weakness, and his fear of it made him weak. Self control and self mastery are the only kind of strength worth anything really.

[@Blade57331]

@@klaussone Yeah because Horde self control over allowing Silvana to became Warchief was such a great idea... Maybe if they had a bit fear over her leadership they could avoid next war.

[@klaussone]

@@Blade57331 It is a self improvement trope meant to give you examples of how bad things can turn out if you disregard wisdom. But this are after all fake stories and things fail to make sense if not enough attention was put in there. Real life however is far more nuanced an complex than that. And as a general rule you should expect a whole lot more from yourself and your leaders.

[@jayblack8843]

​@@klaussone Weak my ass. Dude was one of the few characters capable of wielding Old god power without being influence by it. He was a powerhouse. The only thing he needed was some socialisation while growing up and he had been everything Grom was and then some. He had, pedigree, martial prowess, physical strength, tactical cunning. The boy was damaged beyond belief, but he wasn't weak.

[@Risingdoom1]

The hearthstone book of heroes has been a blessing for voicelines and jokes for stuff like this.

[@Tubitron]

FOR REAL. 👌💯

[@andreware2039]

He really was the only character to come into shadowlands and leave it without any contradicting, contrived changes to his character just for the sake of shadowlands, huh? Garrosh was just that guy.

[@Kill0rGurke]

"ill fuckin do it again" - Garrosh Hellscream, Shadowlands

[@cabrondemente1]

Not really, Uther and Ysera come to mind and they act within character.

[@Ivanus59]

16:00 I laughed when Garrosh managed to punch her through his letter! xD His violent ways cannot be contained by mere paper!

[@CloudHiro]

yeah the stonetallon thing was because of the dueling naratives between two writers. one wanted Garrosh to slowly redeem himself and hated Sylvanas and slowly wanted her to reveal herself as corrupt and a eventual enemy, while the other wanted the opposite for Sylvanas to become a good leader and hated Garrosh wanted him to eventually become a unredeemable villian.... you can tell who was in charge each expansion as things flip floped to their ultimate conclusions.

[@ziephel-6780]

biggest mistake to redeem Sylvanas

[@somekindofgold8362]

Fucking Sylvanas simps man. Always ruining everything.

[@MrMhtmht]

So one was an honourable Chad who can bench 140kg and one was a fedora simp

[@diedonthevine]

>the other wanted the opposite for Sylvanas to become a good leader and hated Garrosh Hmm....Sounds like Danuser shenanigans to me.

[@TheDapperDragon]

Sylvanas doesn't have anything to redeem herself for, frankly. Everything she did she was either pushed into through others failures or malice, or she did for her people. I'm not counting Shadowlands, because it was completely fucking retarded from start to finish. (And even if I did, the Jailers 'this was all my plan' bullshit covers that.) Burning Tel'Drassil was something she was pushed into by the Alliances inaction of Genn Biden's clearly aggressive actions, plus Saurfang's cowardice, to which, everyone suddenly whirled around and blamed her. For retaliating to a starvation attempt initiated during a ceasefire. You can argue it's an overreaction, but frankly, burning one population center to the ground to stop a multi-generational war sounds perfectly reasonable. Especially when, AGAIN, she was put in that position by Genn trying to STARVE OUT THE ENTIRE HORDE.

[@Double_Jae]

Always a good month when Platinum uploads

[@DrinkingMud]

He's a great villian, but i wish he continued his honroable path from stonetalon mountains onwards, a hothead yes, but he would have been such an awesome foil to mirror varian in future expansions. We also lost him too soon, he should have fought the burning legion with us and would have been a great fit for BFA thematically

[@MonasteryOfSilence]

Couldnt agree more

[@soldiersPL]

And it could have saved us from disaster that was shadowlands, man can only dream

[@DiabloTommaso]

He was to late. He never learned. He did that to himself.

[@soldiersPL]

@@DiabloTommaso I mean, at least if he lived to Legion he could have good old competition with Varian who can kill more pitlords like they cosplaying Legolas and Gimly?

[@DiabloTommaso]

@@soldiersPL funny idea way too much out of characther but now i want to see that xD

[@therethan-family1234]

I really hate how Garrosh disregarded everything the horde was going through and basically continued Blackhand's horde. All those Orcs who lived through the wars and were in the internment camps WELCOMED Thrall's new ways, because the "old ways" had them butcher children and left them hollow inside. Grom Hellscream himself was described as a mere husk of what he once was and his brutal ways were his weakness, not an example to strive for.

[@Dreamfillah]

What of the orcs /born/ in the interment camps? They'd no true first-hand knowledge to internalize that guilt, and the miserable conditions in Durotar were the perfect breeding ground for Garrosh's rhetoric to take root.

[@thargs9184]

@@Dreamfillah I belive they were reminded daily by either their captor or the elders. But there was also what seemed like a magical melancholy that affected the green orc without bloodlust. it legit left the green orc in shambles, no matter if they were born before, during or after the first war.

[@ExValeFor]

tfw blizzard writers apologized for the ONE quest where he made a lick of sense

[@BIacklce]

you take a guy, put him in control when your current occupied territory has been halved by flooding, dealing with increased aggression from southern and western hostile forces, then you have your entire senior leadership talk shit behind his back isolating him, then you are surprised when he yes ands himself into a corner with a legion of supplicants. There are no innocent parties, especially in land war.

[@chrissmid8660]

I mean, it makes sense Garrosh went that way. He never experienced what the old Horde did, or the changes Thrall made. He grew up isolated.

[@jrbaxterstockman548]

Originally the plan after MoP was that Garrosh would escape prison and gather an army for the Mongrel Horde. An army of mongrel races of Azeroth. Gnolls, Quillboar, Kobolds, Ursas, anything intelligent enough to pick up a weapon and take orders. Strange to think that in an alternate timeline for blizzard instead of WoD we'd see Hogger as an end boss of a raid tier.

[@Zale2000]

I think its also important to note that garrosh was heavily losing the battle against cairne in their duel. Cairne was about to end him but with that small injury he suffered and the poison he ended up dying.

[@MakiesOkami]

Garrosh seriously should've been a part of the Revendreth storyline in Shadowlands. Just imagine the interactions of Garrosh never listening to the Venthyr and being sent to the Maw.

[@julienclement3704]

This is Shakespeare’s storytelling compare to actual wow story.

[@PrimetimeD]

There is a brief clip in the short trailer "Shadowlands Afterlives: Revendreth" where Sire Denathrius is dictating a letter about the anima drought where he mentions "...our old reliables; our workhorses..." and and during those lines plays a scene of Garrosh having his anima extracted rather forcefully.

[@primary2630]

Garrosh and Varian fighting in the shadowlands

[@HumanPerson_final]

Idk why Blizzard just seemed to abandon Garrosh while they bring back every other villain over and over.

[@YouCanCallMeDunkin]

he was teased during the story and then never used. in the same scene it was sort of implied arthas was also there in a similar manner but Garrosh was actually shown

[@Yagamimoon]

I still think stonetalon was a great moment for Garrosh. It adds nuance to his character, and it shows he has twisted ideas of honor, but he folloes them as best as he could. Contradiction and hypocrisy are expected from flawed characters, in a time when despite the conflict, the warcraft universe started to slowly but inevitably homogenize.

[@gottagofastest]

I was shocked to find out they made the writer take it back like that.

[@mattoleary811]

lol his stonetalon moment is a little bit more than Garrosh being flawed and an imperfect person. He straight up murders a guy because he bombs a school. The pre-patch for the next expansion he does this himself x10 by "nuking" an entire city. Nuanced, flawed characters are interesting. Garrosh was just miswritten because blizz writing is literally 50 different people who may or may not know where they story is going.

[@dawn4383]

@@mattoleary811 I mean, Theramore was a military target. The stonetalon druid school was not.

[@bevvvy1374]

​@@dawn4383Yep those children living in that city were some serious military targets

[@lucsalander]

@@mattoleary811 i see, thanks for clarifying

[@ogy19]

I would've liked if you mentioned things like how Garrosh's actions almost led to Lor'themar and the blood elves almost joined back the Alliance, only not going through because of Jaina's rage towards the blood elves of the Kirin Tor and purging them from Dalaran. Which is funny because that was ALSO influenced by Garrosh's actions in bombing Theramore

[@mckendrick7672]

The Blood Elves never made sense as a permanent member of the Horde anyways. WoW is hugely narratively limited by its dual faction form.

[@ogy19]

@@mckendrick7672 have you played the blood elf starting zones quests and what to what conclusion they lead to? If not i strongly recommend, there you are basically told why they join the horde and you experience the joining in its entirity. But basically they joined the Horde through their connection to Sylvanas, and Sylvanas wanted to help her former people, some blood elves wanted to join the horde out of convenience so that when the time came they could walk through the dark portal and be reunited with their beloved Prince Kael'thas

[@mckendrick7672]

@@ogy19 I've played through it all, and it still makes little sense. A lot of people were not fans of the fact that they outright made Illidan and Kael'thas evil in TBC - narratively a third faction could have easily been spun off from this, but they instead had to fit the blood elves into the mould they had already built in vanilla. Then again, I also think the Forsaken being (permanently) part of the Horde was a bad choice. The problem with WoW is, once they've defined a race as being part of a certain faction, nothing will ever change. They cannot break away, they cannot kick them out, and they cannot add new factions. It's narratively limiting because all of those would break the game unless they just decided to dissolve the factions entirely.

[@Projolo]

​@@ogy19Much of the horde races don't make sense but it is gameplay first lore second

[@apacalypsagon3758]

Even garrosh respected lorthemar's opinions it's just that he knew the guy was a shifty mofo. Hard to call yourself proud members of the horde when your dealing with the alliance under the table.Thats not the kind of thing orcs or any primitive race respects. It's either ride or die. And considering how the elves have an on and off again relationship with the alliance they can always give themselves a convenient out if things ever get too dicey. Especially since they're so proud you'd find it hard to believe they can work with orcs at all. I figured they'd have a hard time trying not to take offense while they're colleagues make jokes at their expense for not being as rad or having much in the way of edge as they do.

[@RoxLOL]

Mad props to Patrick Seitz for his awesome perfomance as Garrosh

[@Foba_Bett]

Garroshs story is so great because it's a battle we all fight. It's a representation of the internal battle between one's ideals and the temptation to achieve those ideals through any means necessary, even those that compromise one's honor and integrity. It's a story of potential and ambition that is corrupted by an insatiable lust for power and a conviction that might makes right. It's a narrative that is similar to the universal theme of the internal conflict between one's better nature and one's darker impulses.

[@emmaoreardon5188]

I love that there's so much content of Garrosh that voice lines on this video come from Hearthstone and HotS, and it all feels so natural. I love Garrosh's story, and his relation with Thrall honestly makes me emotional. Another fantastic video ❤️

[@zimboiii9025]

Pretty sure this is an AI generated Garrosh voice

[@emmaoreardon5188]

@@zimboiii9025 nope these are all real, I recognise them all from Hearthstone, HotS and WoW itself!

[@Mackoztl]

​@@zimboiii9025 only some lines and i think its not ai, but he recorded it by yourself with his WoW edition Blue Yeti mic. And yes, most of the lines are from Hots and Hearthstone

[@n3tw0rk_n3k0]

Blizz screwed Garrosh by making him such a psychopath. I remember seeing him in Nagrand and thinking he was cool

[@UltimateGamerCC]

no, Garrosh made his own choices, he chose to stick to barbaric tradition and refused to grow past being a bloodthirsty Orc, eventually forsaking his honor entirely.

[@Sillyhands1]

I'm calling cap, his actions weren't that different from Arthas', and everyone loves him as a villain. They are both good villains in their own right. Just my opinion though.

[@BelfackeR]

@@UltimateGamerCCyou stupid or something? Garrosh is a made up character.

[@antoniovictorHOP]

​@@UltimateGamerCCno, the writers couldn't keep up what characther they wanted him to be, even in WotlK he has moments of introdpection like the Stonetalon one

[@Fartaker55]

​@@UltimateGamerCCSo you're saying Garrosh is some kind of AI implemented to the world? Because I'm pretty sure who made Garrosh the villain were the ones writing his story

[@Vidar93]

I think a lot of this could have been avoided if thrall had made saurfang warchief instead. He was someone who was respected by all of the horde races and even some alliance. He had been through several of the wars so understood the heavy toll it could take.

[@booradley6832]

Or if he made Cairne warchief. You know, the guy that was the leader of the race respected by all of the major factions and primary peacekeeper? I am so mad we didnt meet Cairne in Shadowlands after he was done so dirty.

[@deathminder9206]

Right but Thralls choice is the point. He made the soon of the man he admired most in the world war chief because he wrongly believed that Garrosh would lead the Horde as his father had. It was the kind of blind loyalty choice people make in reality which is why i think for the story it was the best choice.

[@Canukles]

Who says his dad was even respected, besides Thrall? Guy lead his people to ruination and only slightly mitigated his conscious blunder at the last possible moment. Thrall just fucked up.

[@kou7191]

@@Canukles And didn't even own up to it and continue his early retirement.

[@oscara1573]

@@booradley6832 The duel between Cairne and Garrosh should have been a major plot in cata. It would have shown more the degradation of Garrosh and his inevitable downfall, also giving a major relevance to the tauren race. But no, lets kill offscreen one of the most charismatic characters of the franchise and make even more complicated a complex story with a lot of unanswered questions that is warcraft 😒

[@reeven1721]

I genuinely believe Magatha's poisoning of Cairne might be the greatest contributor to durably fucking up the Horde for all the expansions afterwards. Like, if you think about it, Cairne's death gets us pushover milquetoast Baine to lead the Taurens and puts a wall between Garrosh and the Taurens, gets Cairne's voice of wisdom taken from the council, leaves Vol'jin alone as the last remnant of the Horde's "old guard", sends Garrosh himself down a self-loathing overcompensating spiral of accepting himself as a villain... Cairne + Vol'jin could have been the rock holding up Garrosh as a decent leader, but him being gone was like kicking a leg from underneath the Horde. Made everything else less stable.

[@shirrenthewanderer414]

Honestly for all the shit Garrosh gets the rest of the Horde aint no better. If they actually acted like a FAMILY when it mattered instead of ragging on Garrosh everytime he tried to do something and try to understand where he is coming from (i mean WHY did you bring him from Durotar to begin with), because Garrosh has a point because I look around Orc and Troll starting areas and it's a F*ing shithole, that in all the time Thrall was warchief did nothing to fix that. Thrall pretty much did nothing but act like a doormat for the Alliance the whole time so I don't blame Garrosh for the WTF response. Everytime Garrosh got upset at something everyone else around him told him to shut up, and the only reason he went off the deep end is the Pandaren Artifact Sha Beast thing possessed him and brought out the worst in him while no one wanted to be his friend, everyone treated him like the snot nosed kid Thrall forced everyone to put up with, and he acted accordingly.

[@mrcaterpillow9926]

​@@shirrenthewanderer414 That artifact never corrupted him. That was entirely Garrosh so unfortunately he caused the problems himself. The only real thing he wasn't responsible for was the massacre of Druids in Ashenvale that caused Cairne to challenge him for leadership. However had Garrosh been more tempered and genuinely listened to the rest of the council it would not have gone poorly. That's the big thing. He NEVER listened to them. He thought they were all weak and pathetic. Why compromise when we could take. Meanwhile the Alliance on the other side of the planet are WAITING for a fucking reason to wipe them off the planet. Garrosh then also attacked Theramore which BY THE WAY, was neutral ground until Garrosh invaded Ashenvale Forest. He didn't care for treaties or truces. He felt that so long as you had the strength to take that it was right. Which it just, didn't work. The horde had tried 2 seperate times to forcefully take Azeroth from the Alliance but it NEVER worked out. They lost bad both of those times. Hell their best attempt was the Second War and even that ended in a failed campaign. Only until they tried for peace did things even remotely begin to improve. So yeah, long story short Garrosh was a fucking idiot. Dude was a war leader and warrior but other than that. He was terrible.

[@shirrenthewanderer414]

@@mrcaterpillow9926 Then what was the point of bringing Garrosh to Orgrimmar from Nagrand to begin with if Thrall didn't want Garrosh's opinion. If Garrosh didn't get corrupted by the sha, then that means the sha making the Pandarens do Bad Stuff TM... the Sha ARE kind of the Pandarens fault... if you think about it.

[@PsyrenXY]

Not to mention Vol'jin being left alone made him easy pickings for Mue'zalah / The Jailer

[@mrcaterpillow9926]

@@shirrenthewanderer414 ?? He brought Garrosh to Orgrimmar so that he could see that his father died honorably. That his father wasn’t a disgrace, then offered Garrosh the opportunity to join with the Horde. Thrall wanted to try to mold Garrosh into a fit leader, he wanted to be to Garrosh what Doomhammer was to him. His mistake was not understanding that Garrosh was to hotheaded to consider he might be wrong. Also to blame the Pandaren on the sha is so stupid it’s like you don’t even know what the Sha are. The Titans are responsible technically because they kill Y’Shaarj from the ground and locked his heart away. They are manifestation of negative emotions, the Pandaren discovered this and worked to prevent the spread of these things though meditation and more. They actively had the Sha dorment until the Horde and Alliance awakened them. Garrosh also against EVERYONES council attacked the Vault of the Old Gods heart and took it for himself where he then absorbed all of the remaining power to turn himself into a Demi-God. I didn’t even play MoP but I know this.

[@korkron8756]

35:37 damn that whole scene you made up looks sick, him sitting on the throne surrounded by Kor'krons looks insane, even with Gorehowl at his side plus the Horde banner at his back. And the animation looks clean as well, good job. Great video! For the true Horde!

[@Admiralkirk95]

TBH thrall is kinda an idiot. He didn't see the obvious warning signs about Garrosh and and just kinda let him be the leader. Worried that non-orcs would cause friction.... then just choose another ork other than Garrosh.

[@Leopoldshark]

Didn't he want Saurfang first, but Saurfang was still grieving his son?

[@shaktosh524]

Vol'jin and Cairne told Thrall that Garrosh wasn't fit for Warchief. Even Garrosh himself told him he was more of a general than a leader, but Thrall ignore them and passed the mantle of Warchief to him anyways.

[@SuperPal-tr3go]

@@shaktosh524 Garrosh was a nepobaby lol.

[@oscara1573]

If not Saurfang, Cairne was the right choice.

[@JoshSweetvale]

Yes, Thrall _is_ an idiot. His willful naiveté is his biggest character trait. He's merciful and kind, but likes to just _order_ everyone else to be as idealist as him. You see it as early as Warcraft 3.

[@Aggron300]

The comedic timing of this channel is hilarious, Garrosh kicking someone thru his letter, Vol'jin getting up after being killed etc hahaha

[@HiddenEvilStudios]

Vol'jin's sounds and animation in reverse gave me a good chuckle.

[@roryshanks1816]

DUDE best video yet, you have the perfect blend, of simplified story-telling, writing and humor! You're a God at what you do and I hope you dont stop. I also hate you though because this vid made me want to go back to WoW after a year long break. Keep up the terrific work you magnificent beast

[@MrPapamaci88]

I like it that Garrosh was so tough that he punched Magatha through a written letter. 😆

[@skeliskull]

It’s interesting to see how wow villains have gotten so bad that people are now nostalgic about garrosh. But now that I think about it, Garrosh is the only villain introduced in WoW that was given proper build-up and character arc

[@kylekopsi7039]

I was today years old when I learned that my favorite moment from Garrosh was an accident 🤦🏻 I hate that they forced Garrosh down the psychopath route simply because making him learn from his mistakes would make him the most powerful leader in Warcraft history.

[@Nagassh]

I was okay with them making Garrosh into an antagonist, but it felt like it happened too quick - there was a slow burn between WOTLK -> Cataclysm -> Early MOP and then by mid / late MOP he's just went full Hitler and has started injecting old good juice into orcs. It felt out of character, if they wanted to go down that path it would have been better if it had been built up more or if Garrosh was forced into a corner before he started sacrificing his standards instead of doing it for seemingly no real reason.

[@sobit]

For real, my man. I always found it ridiculous that a character that was so strongly defined by his father's fault (drinking the demon's blood and cursing his people out of lust for power) simply went down the exact same path (making some deal with an elder good out of lust for power). Even if everything up to this point was brilliant writing, this turn just completely put me off. And you can't even turn it into some traffic story like "due to a cruel twist of fate he ended up doing the exact same thing his father did, the consequences of which made him who he was", because he did it fully aware of what he was doing. Just stupid ass writing. Fucking lame.

[@StarShopping69]

As someone who's a huge lore nerd, meaning I already know their story, I still LOVE seeing it retold like this. Please keep making these

[@MrNoohkhan]

Omg finally!! I've wanted a garnish story for like ever and a half!!! Thank you! ❤

[@GeneralSantucci1st]

this video was so well done i must say . I love how you used the garrosh character model .

[@AcktongueBaby]

Oh my gosh, I love these. Thank you so much! Do you have a monthly Patreon?

[@filipvadas7602]

Garrosh is , in his own way, like Marv from Sin City. He had the rotten luck of being born in the wrong century. Like how Asmon put it, if he had been born earlier, he might have been the greatest warchief the Horde had ever known

[@maksymilianziele28]

Rather born in the wrong planet and stayed on Azeroth a little too less. If he was raised on Azeroth like Thrall or went much through the first wars, like veteran Varok Saurfang, maybe he would be a little more... reserved in his approach of Horde domination.

[@illiberalautist2222]

He was the greatest warchief

[@UltimateGamerCC]

he was a fool who failed to accept that Azeroth was different from Draenor, and in the end he made enemies of everyone, which is the easiest way to fall.

[@Mediados]

He's also partially Thralls fault. He didn't want the throne, he told him it was too much responsibility for a young warrior who just wanted to live a little. Had Garrosh had a few more years to gain experience he could have made true Warchief.

[@UltimateGamerCC]

in reality Thrall didnt have much choice in the matter, as stated in the video, Cairne and Vol'jin were great leaders, but they were not Orcs. even if Thrall had chosen someone else, there probably would've been trouble in the Horde anyway.@@Mediados

[@madotsukisand1036]

My favorite thing about the Thrall vs Garrosh Cinematic in WoD is that when Garrosh claims that Thrall is just at fault for Garrosh becoming the kind of monster he became, he's not really wrong. Thrall put Garrosh up to be Warchief primarily due to his own insecurities around his abilities to lead the Horde and fears for the Orcish people's culture. Most of Garrosh's bad traits like his hatred and dismissal towards all non-orcish races, his warmongering and bloodthirsty nature, and his refusal to listen to any advice, come from traits that are the reasons Thrall put him in that position in the first place. Thrall was worried that the orc's were forgetting their pre-corruption heritage, and he was insecure about his position as an Orc who had never known Draenor before it's fall. He idolized the old Orcish ways through a rose tinted lens. Which made Garrosh, a uncorrupted orc who had lived on Draenor all his life and was the son of Grommash, the liberator of the orcs from the curse of Demon Blood seem like an ideal choice. Taking this into account, Garrosh seems like not just the perfect choice, but the only choice to further the redemption of Thrall's people. A redemption which Thrall has essentially made his life's sole mission and has guided every political choice he has made so far. Similarly while Thrall certainly respected and honored the other Horde races, the Orc's were his people. They *were* the Horde in his eyes, so the idea that even his close friends Cairne or Vol'jinn would be suitable candidates to lead the Horde was unconscionable. Sure they were great and wise leaders, but they weren't Orcish leaders, they had no connection to the old Orcish ways, a lack of connection which even Thrall saw as a mark against himself as a leader. Thrall didn't want the legacy of the Orc's to be just that they were a foolish group of bloodthirsty warriors whose hubris doomed their world. He wanted their legacy to be as the proud and noble race he saw them as. A Non-Orc leader would have just been a huge blow to Orcish confidence, it wouldn't help them to move past their mistakes and it might further the dissolution of pre-corrupt Orc culture. So in comes Garrosh Hellscream, a figure the Orc's could really rally around, someone whose strength would help them feel proud in their Orcish heritage. Whose hotheadedness and tendency to pick fights would only be good for Orcish morale, and who is a proven war hero and leader. Even Garrosh's complete unwillingness to listen to council could have been a good thing, after all he was partially right about Northrend, and he was the son of Grom Hellscream, someone Thrall extremely respected. Being headstrong just meant that Garrosh would always stay true to his beliefs, that as a cultural leader of the Orcs he couldn't be easily undermined or controlled. That the other races of the Horde's cultures wouldn't overtake the Orcish culture that Thrall saw as the heart of the Horde. Through this lens it's easy to see why Thrall thought Garrosh would be the perfect Warchief, a true uncompromising uncorrupted Orc who was deeply in tune with the old ways and would ensure a future where the Orcish race could stand proud as at the heart of the Horde. Someone who the Orc's could rally around and offer perspective that Thrall simply never could. In a way, Thrall got exactly what he wanted when he put Garrosh in charge. It just turns out that all of those traits were actually, really really bad things for a leader to have. Garrosh didn't create a revitalization in pre-corruption orc culture as a noble people in tune with the land, he revitalized all the bad and destructive parts. He didn't help them escape their reputation and legacy as bloodthirsty fools who destroy everything they touch, he just made it so people think of Theramore and Pandaria instead of the Dark Portal. And, Garrosh's mistakes ensured that outside of Thrall an Orcish Warchief would be politically untenable for years to come. Thrall's obsession with the past of the Orc's meant that he couldn't help realize a better future for them or the Horde as a whole. So while he's not responsible for everything Garrosh did, it was because of his own shortsightedness and insecurities that Garrosh got put in the position to do those things in the first place.

[@alejandronieto4212]

That is correct. Perhaps Thrall knew that. Otherwise... why would killing him leave such a burden in his mind, to the point of barely making anything meaningful against the Burning Legion, then waste himself building a farm in some dying world?

[@rdeaton67]

I think this is the perfect explanation of why the juxtaposition between Thrall and Garrosh is so impactful, and another reason why his story is so grounded. I think Hiru said it best in his "Garrosh Did Nothing Wrong" video that Garrosh fully believed in everything he was doing because that's how he was raised. Draenor versus Azeroth, civilization versus primal living, politics versus warcraft. Garrosh was leading the horde as WARchief. He honestly believed that everything he was doing was helping the Horde rally back from a post war period of near starvation and poverty. I like to view it as there being 2 different versions of Garrosh. The first was the bloodthirsty leader of the Horde that wanted to ensure his faction was the strongest, and those who felt differently were just nuisances. Most races in the Horde only joined out of necessity, not out of some similarity in culture. The Tauren were almost hunted to extinction by the Centaur, the Darkspear were ousted from the troll alliance because they no longer believed in Empire building or worship of primal Loa, Undead were being rounded up by the Scarlet Crusade...you get my point. Garrosh viewed the Horde as the home for the orcs, and everyone else was just along for the ride. The other version i envision is Garrosh after he was tagged for villainhood by the devs. Up to the point of Pandaria were he was corrupted by Y'shaarj, he was no worse than the Alliance. Both factions were plundering this newly discovered world to gain an advantage in the ongoing war. Once again, we see parallels in the real world of this happening constantly, especially between warring nations. Once the Old God corruption took place, it was too late for Garrosh. I'm not saying that, from a real world, human perspective, I'm on board with what Garrosh did, or how he was as Warchief. However, in universe, it makes sense. He almost certainly saved the Horde after the Northrend expedition, and it was the misunderstanding of the other, non-orcish races that warped him to look like he was much worse than he was. He is a perfectly written Orc, and I hate that we lost him so soon. He will always be my Warchief. Also, Thrall cheated in the Mok'gora, and I haven't had any respect for him since.

[@papapalps2415]

​​​@@rdeaton67You make some incredibly bizarre arguments here. Like as if most of the Horde races being united by necessity is somehow different or sets them apart in any meaningful way from...uh, not just the Alliance, but virtually every civilization or coaltion to ever exist in the history of ever, fiction or otherwise, lul. Similarly, saying Garrosh Goddamn Hellscream is 'perfectly written' is just....astonishing. i mean, I guess if you just ignore all the nonsensical writing that infects so much of WoW, and which Garrosh succumbed to hard and fast by the end of MoP and WoD. And even moreso given you literally iust admitted he's morally abhorrent by almost any measure, and yet you still have this werid hero worship thing with him that borders on being creepy, given he is unambiguously a monster. Its something I notice very often with randoms, granted; the utter inability to seperate their personal biases and failings from reality. To be expected, really. Also, Thrall didn't cheat, and if you try to cite the movie as a source like every other drooling random I am going to laugh at you, hard (hint; even if he did cheat, it doesnt matter and no one sane or with an actual, even vaguely semi-functional moral system should care).

[@tripleh327]

While I agree with you on some y Of your point I cannot pretend that Garrosh was an immature unstable stubborn psychopath well before o this ascension as war chief and he did not hide it at all His only qualities were Being the son of a last generation leader and hero Being uncorrupted by deamon blood And in hindsight being that unstable even without demon blood was a major red flag Also his supposed ability to connect and being the standard bearer of the old ways of dreanor is pure copium We have metric tone of evidence that before guldan the orcs were an honorable tranquil people They did wages wars to protect themselves But they did not butcher or genocide left and right War was an marginal part of orcs culture The focus was the tribe and in spiritual matters the shamans The horde is not an ancient tradition It is a creation of the generation of thrall parents during the first opening of the portal Even the dranei extermination was done by the same people that will later invade Azeroth for the first time Before them there was no horde And no hyper fixation on war and battle Being an orc on draenor was not defined by being a warrior Garrosh never once represented the “old ways” He kept screaming horde here horde there capitulation weakness and other nonsense that has no connection whatsoever with prefall orcs Garrosh is an amazing villains but we should stop pretending that thrall decision had any reason behind the memory of the father of Garrosh As a villain garrosh is credible and compelling As a leader is the personification of everything you don’t want to see into the leader of a powerful army and people And his ascension has zero sense Garrosh is presented in the worst possible light And thrall is at that point a veteran leader that has lead his people during undead wars and legion of demons attacks during a continental migration across an ocean Yet he just pick the worse possible successor while there were scores of far better candidates As a gameplay narrative it is ok to create a good villain But at the cost of making one of the main character seems an absolute imbecile and forever tarnishing him in the eyes of the fans

[@CorHor]

Do more of these more often please 😊 You've got skill

[@Skrittlez]

I’m not a lore type of guy but just saw two of your videos and I’m loving it. You give such easy to understand and follow explanations on the story and easy to follow to for someone that just played the game for mostly pvp. Thank you!

[@RaimaNd]

I still say it: Thrall should've made Saurfang the leader of the horde. He was by all accounts the perfect leader. Strong but also wise. Very experienced in both ways and loved.

[@mattoleary811]

Eh, he could have been written that way, but having just buried his son I can’t imagine he would want to instantly jump to being leader of the horde. The real answer is cairne, but apparently orcs are just canonically racist and even Thrall didnt wanna test having a non orc at the time.

[@solarstorm5242]

@@mattoleary811Post Northrend Orcs had trust issues, firstly against the alliance (duh), the forsaken (you know, the wrath gate fiasco that also killed Saurfang Jr., an appreciated orc and son of a respected warrior), and as a result, also the rest of the horde. Saurfang would have been a more logical choice to keep the peace, or Eitrigg, but Garrosh was the hero of the moment. I understand Thrall’s choice, even if I would have chosen the one that could moderate him instead. Hell, Drek’Thar, the old frostwolf seer, would have been better (if he wasn’t also busy helping the Earthen Circle)

[@ShadowTheHedgehogCZ]

Saurfang would be perfect for it. And Thrall would have chosen him if he was thinking rationally. But Thrall was probably thinking mostly in terms of symbolism. Both Saurfang and Eithrig were corrupted Orcs that fought the Alliance prior to the Third War, and those conflicts were influenced by demons. Thrall idealized the uncorrupted Orc culture prior demons came into play, and Garrosh was a perfect symbol for this. Not only he was uncorrupted, not only he lived on Draenor / Outland the entire time, but he was son of Grom who ultimately saved them from the corruption. That was like a better version of Grom without the baggage of giving in to the demons in the first place. Too bad Thrall only thought in terms of symbolism. Because if you don't count this context, all you are left with is a hotheaded aggressive warmonger who will not listen to anyone and refuses to be reasoned with. The only time Garrosh had any showed any reserves in judgment was when he initially protested against being a Warchief. Which I find surprising to this day. I always thought Thrall was being massively stupid, to the point of not understanding why he did it. But him idealizing the Orc traditions that he himself didn't live to see, in combination with his weakness for Grom's memory makes sense.

[@BazzbeTV1]

He was a traitor

[@godlygamer911]

Never understood how Grom is a hero just for fixing some of what he helped to start

[@ExValeFor]

orcs coping pretty hard to justify being the way they are

[@synmad3638]

my headcanon is that Thrall and the other orcs who weren't raised in Draenor view him as a hero because of his sacrifice, but that the older orcs like Varok know he was kind of a bastard

[@cristiany140]

Grok? Or Grom. If you are talking about Grom, then I agree with you.

[@alwaysangry2232]

well that cutscene was badass though

[@warllockmasterasd9142]

Politics

[@candlestyx8517]

The exchange between Garrosh and the peon had me rolling. "Me not that kind of orc!" lmfao

[@Trueillusionoflife]

7:08 is right about the point, when he says str of his strategy and the subtitles says "tragedy" lol

[@APCBaab32]

It's so good to go back to this story. Garrosh left a mark and his story is one of the good memories i still keep from when i loved playing WoW. Thanks for this!

[@EnderPryde]

33:25 I would argue the biggest jump-the-shark moment in Warcraft history was the transition from WC3 to Vanilla, but that's just because they had to throw out basically 80% of the plot from Warcraft 3 because it just didn't fit with their conception of faction-based MMO gameplay. But that's just me :V A lot of good came after, obviously, but it was very much a "eh, the story can rot in hell, we have an MMO to run" moment.

[@AnotherCrazyClown]

The death of Cairne could have been a turning point for Garrosh, learning how his decisions made this result possible being used as a tool for evil doing but what do i know about writing

[@UltimateGamerCC]

that would require to admit that he made a mistake.

[@mokarokas-1727]

@@UltimateGamerCC - Exactly. Though Garrosh went off the deep end and could've been a villain WITHOUT the hard turns into insanity, I will always applaud that they so perfectly portrayed that his whole issue came down to pride. Growing up he never had any, and then one day someone told him what a great linage he's from and how special he is. Mental whiplash. This is how nazis are made. lol

[@madzaisa]

Tbh, Cairn is totally at fault. Garrosh was Warchief, not Sneakychief or Covertcheif. Why instantly assume he went on such undercover work behind their backs, while he always confronted everyone face to face before? Like it seems everyone hated him, even Thrall "old buddies" just because. Sure, he was a Warmonger, but maybe choose like some another prominent orc, or make a counsel if you knew about Garrosh tendencies?

[@Shiruvi]

my two favourite things about garrosh are that 1. he was one of the many voices saying garrosh should not be warchief and 2. that he somehow managed to completely blindside and slaughter an entity that remembered how it would die before it was even born. i fully believe that's why he got killed off so fast because realistically nobody should've ever been able to outsmart this guy.

[@perchetuvali243]

what entity?

[@Shiruvi]

@@perchetuvali243 the bronze dragon kairoz, who helps him escape the trial - you later find him murdered in wod-nagrand.

[@ZanathKariashi]

@@Shiruvi Kairoz doesn't count, since he lost that ability. Similar to Dr Manhatten, he doesn't know the future, he simply experiences time simultaneously and can simply look into the future for the information he needs as he needs it, but it's not a stored memory (that's why Bronze Dragons are sometimes confused on when in the timeline they're meeting someone, since they don't experience time the way other beings do). However after the aspect powers were lost, all Bronze Dragons lost that omnipotent level of time-sight and could only see briefly flashes and glimpses of possible futures with it requiring consensus from multiple Time Wardens comparing notes to determine the right future. That was the whole purpose of his originally studying the timeless isle, in hopes of finding some way to restore the Bronze dragon's powers. When that failed to pan out, he decided after consulting with Wrathion, to use the infinite hordes plan that the Hour-glasses power would allow to happen, but ended up having to break the Hour-glass after they failed to break Garrosh out quietly, to transport him to Alt Draenor and drag in alt-copies of the heroes to cover their escape.

[@esteban20969564]

the real surprise is thrall choosing him instead of saurfang as warchief... damn, I bet every orc would accepted vol jin as warchief since the amani were practically OG members of the horde since the times of zul jin.

[@shahinrahmany6704]

One thing i always love about wow is creators like you and the in game music

[@ragnnohab]

Garrosh was the hero of WoW. We were the villains.

[@Dukenukem]

I still think that Garrosh walking slowly into the camera at the end of the patch 5.4 cinematic is one of the strongest moments in WoW.

[@00dragons00]

you can feel those foot steps

[@dreamermagister8561]

Despite his later years considered a bit of a psychopath it was only natural for him to become one, no? His story was very human (as in realistic) I am glad they didnt redeem him somehow. He was a product of his past, of his shame and Thrall's romanticisation of that past. He idealised Grommash, that orc although at his last moment freed himself was still a bad person and Grommash himself knew it. He fought his bloodlust and often failed. But Thrall's idealization crowded his judgement and caused the Horde more blood and suffering. Thrall failed the Horde in that regard and then ran away to Outland xD. Thrall was also failed to see by his relentless pursuit of peace he made his own ppl suffer which resulted in a more radicalised Orc populatioj who support Garrosh for his promise of wealth and glory. All this feels fairly well crafted dont u think? Half the reason MoP was an awesome expansion IMHO.

[@Odynh]

I just monologued the whole part of the raid out of memory, man i love siege of orgrimmar

[@CarrotAtHeart]

i dunno who you got to do VO for garrosh but you nailed it

[@emperoraugustus4047]

i love how Garrosh's letter to magatha gives her a stright punch to the face, litterly

[@fiffi5318]

The Arthas title is gonna be: The best Orc in all of Warcraft

[@gkins5474]

Arthas is overrated.

[@dawoodoo8913]

@@gkins5474 bro what? 😂

[@ExValeFor]

​​@@dawoodoo8913he's overrated af, all he did was throw a hissy fit, take a cursed sword and do a bunch of ridiculous edgy shit, and his evil plan was to lose on purpose all along so he can resurrect your ass

[@synmad3638]

​@@gkins5474Arthas might not be an amazing character but he's definitely one of Warcraft's best. His story starts, ends, and makes sense all throughout, and you can't say the same for most other characters in this goofy ass franchise

[@dawoodoo8913]

@@ExValeFor isn't that pretty similar to Garrosh? Throwing a hissy fit and falling to an old god and do bunch of edgy shit? Both great characters still i wouldn't say Arthas is overrated. Neither is Garrosh.

[@botchklobb8521]

Man i think Garrosh is awesome. Hes my favorite Horde Leader. The way he went about it and his leadership of the horde is a massive throwback for me to Warcraft 1 n 2. Where the horde were just like that, blood thirsty and their mission was to conquer Azeroth and nothing was going to stand in their way. Thats always been the horde to me. I understand the horde arc really changed and sort of maybe evolved you could say during Warcraft 3 because they didnt want to be that corrupted version and finally have peace again like they did on Draenor. But ive always felt Orgrim Doomhammers horde would absolutely destroy Thralls version though

[@Noxims47314]

Thrall cobbled together survivors under the credo of "we'll do with what we have against a world that hates us and outlast our foes together." Garrosh saw the end result of that as a foundation for a new war machine and kick-started their economy and technology with a forceful boom by no longer compromising on what was desired vs what was possible. his credo being "We are born of greatness, we deserve greatness, and we take what we are owed to forge on," it is humility against pride, and war-weariness against War-eagerness.

[@esteban20969564]

@@Noxims47314 basically the facist focus of WWII era and ultra nationalist of modern times vs a league of nations keeping the status quo with the other major power without direct war like comunist cold war era and modern EU aproach

[@Noxims47314]

@@esteban20969564 yeah except this is fun and not real life bs with tired countries being ripped clean of resources, stripped of culture and having their populace being turned into rootless interbred vagabonds.

[@brandoncastellano1858]

The peon telling off Garrosh is the funniest thing I've seen all month.

[@sixpacksae]

Garrosh was another victim of Blizzards mass culling of strong male characters. Garrosh was by far one of my favorite developed characters. The WOD opening cinematic was the best they ever made in my opinion. The chills seeing Garrosh save his father then tell Gul’ dan “Times change” what a scene.

[@HiddenEvilStudios]

Also comically small Gorehowl. So much wasted potential, Warlords. Could've been an even more fondly remembered expansion than Wrath.

[@gemyniraptor8626]

Sylvanas okaying the use of the Blight at the wrathgate, directly resulting in the isolation of Horde lands to famine, which "justified" Garrosh in his conquest schemes which only proved Alliance suspicions, just continues to highlight that the Hordes biggest enemy is itself

[@JoshSometimesJon]

He's Warcraft's Vegeta, and I loved every moment with him, no matter how stupid it got at times.

[@snakems6936]

He's reverse Vegeta

[@hattedchicken123]

Garrosh was the goat he’s the embodiment of what every player who rolled horde thought they were signing up for not what the horde became under these sorry peace lovers

[@MrMhtmht]

This, when I joined the Horde in 2005 it was full of metalheads who were well socialized and worked out, now it's just normie sht

[@hattedchicken123]

@@MrMhtmht the vanilla/BC horde was the dawn of non-nerd/lifting gamers. Absolutely nothing wrong with being a nerd, I am one who also lifts but I’m just pointing out the facts

[@stormstrider1990]

Garrosh is a highly divisive character. To most he's a villain, and to some Horde players, he's the TRUE Warchief. I'm on the villain camp because he did display a lot of unnecessary cruelty during MoP, especially in the Siege of Orgrimmar, where we see the Kor'kron torture Darkspear and Theramore civilians for fun. People also debate whether it was right or wrong of Blizzard to turn Garrosh into a villain, and which writer was to blame (kinda like how the players fought over Sylvanas during BfA and Shadowlands). Whether you're an Alliance patriot, A Horde rebel, or a Warchief loyalist, you can't deny Garrosh left a huge impact on WoW, in both the story and the game. I still love the revamped Orgrimmar. It's also because of Garrosh and his legacy that we got the Mag'har orcs as an allied race.

[@bennettmorgan7651]

He's still my Warchief

[@leinaneia]

I can't count anymore how many times I watched your lore videos. I love everything about them. They're great and I can't wait to see if and when the next video will come and what it'll be about❤

[@JoshSweetvale]

I like Garrosh as accidentally brilliant writing. Self-hate >> Thrall's intervention >> Brittle ego >> Megalomania >> 'You disappoint me, Garrosh' >> Complete lunatic but still with 'honor' >> Racism with Pandaria >> Diabolism with Y'sharaaj

[@jeremyrivera660]

Ooooh a video about Garrosh neat :)

[@deathi]

there was a difference, the bomb in stonetalon was done on neutral druids, the mana bomb done to theramore was done to a military naval base

[@mokarokas-1727]

That's a very slight difference, if it's all a war of aggression and conquest anyway.

[@tyrnip7868]

@@mokarokas-1727it’s not a minor difference. It’s the difference between a military attack and a terrorist attack.

[@mokarokas-1727]

@@tyrnip7868 - Was it really? Because the druids would eventually finish their education and be military assets, and Theramore was as much a civilian city as a naval base. There is a difference, but not so much that it would negate Garrosh's 180 on turning settlements into craters.

[@Special_Tactics_Force_Unit]

yeah but they had warning and it was mostly evacuated soooooooooooo @@tyrnip7868

[@tyrnip7868]

@@mokarokas-1727 you are thinking druids in relation to gameplay. most druids through lore (besides faction leaders) are strongly pacifists

[@mr.v2689]

The line of Hellscream is pure fury incarnate

[@regroot4224]

We need more videos like this! , that was so good

[@EmileVinesh]

Garrosh was a character on par with Arthas in terms of memorable (and tragic) villains. We, the players, first meet Garrosh in Nagrand during the Burning Crusade in 2007 and he has been with the Horde up until Warlords of Draenor in 2014. The quest in Stonetalon did give the idea that Garrosh war brutal, but honorable. But they threw that out the window as the expansions rolled out. His world view of what the Horde was conflicted with what we (the player) saw with the Horde. And even now, I bet that people would still join Garrosh rather than the Horde we have now. His death was inevitable, but Garrosh was one of the best characters in Warcraft history. I refuse to acknowledge Shadowlands as a canon expansion tho...

[@derps8690]

i mean, garrosh quite literally compared himself to arthas in the war crimes book when he was talking to anduin, so that's a fair comparison to make tbh.

[@milantasic6669]

Amin brother. Justice for Garosh our true warchief !

[@lucas9684]

I agree with everything you said my man

[@solarstorm5242]

I would absolutely join Garrosh’ Horde if it was all about honor, like in that Stonetalon quest. This, in my opinion, is peak Garrosh characterisation. If he had stayed as this warmonger yet honourable warlord, a perfect foil to the peacekeeping Varian, we would have had a wonderful dichotomy between the two. *For the Horde!*

[@HiddenEvilStudios]

I'd be the first throwing up the Kor'kron salute given the chance. It's a crying shame we never got those unique Kor'kron pieces to wear, not to mention the high-quality Warsong tabard.

[@hoyhoy852]

Garrosh was a very convenient character that could push the story and force some Alliance vs Horde action without it being incredibly contrived. Sucks that so many faction leaders are just complete non-characters with no personality whatsoever and are just part of some kind of "Avengers" without any agency of their own. Imagine if there were multiple Garroshes among faction leaders and instead having him burn through Mists of Pandaria as the sole villain, racial tensions just make everything slowly implode over time, leading to one big mess. Although another thing completely killing the storytelling is the players being ones to solve everything and it's incredibly lame for lore.

[@jablamski]

We all know Garrosh did nothing wrong

[@cosmicfails2053]

Court: *places all of his warcrimes before him and seeks to persecute him for it.* Garrosh: Yehuck, I'll fucking do it again!

[@VerdictLovesYou]

14:38 - this is false as false gets... Cairne totally obliterated Garrosh, literally bodied him, Garrosh's weapon turned out poison coated and the poison started working right before Garrosh was about to get closer and closer to death by the beating he took.

[@samflood5631]

Are you going to do a Sylvanis video and cover all of the similar war crimes she made when she was Warchief? I feel like Battle for Azeroth is just another Mists of Pandaria with Sylvanis burning down an Alliance settlement which sparked another war which caused both Alliance and Horde to take their fight to another Isle Continent. And just like Garrosh, when Sylvanis lost her title as Warchief, she fled to another dimension and sparked another inter dimensional crisis the same way Garrosh did with the Iron Horde.

[@monkeyswithshoes308]

To make it worse, they keep calling it "The Fourth War." Then WTF was Garrosh's rain from Cata to Pandaria? A heated game of Backgammon? Entire continents were soaked in blood!!

[@tnvmark2173]

I was about to say, the Alliance-Horde war that spanned from Wrath of the Lich King (post-Wrathgate incident) to the end of Mists of Pandaria felt more fitting as "The Fourth War" than Battle for Azheroth ever did.

[@alejandronieto4212]

​@@monkeyswithshoes308I fucking hate that name too. Apparently is not a war if the Alliance start it.

[@Ω3103ζ]

the voiceactor for garrosh did such a good job

[@HateMachinist]

The best villain in Warcraft history .....is Arthas.

[@Mito383]

Garrosh got done dirty. He had the potential to be a genuinely great faction leader. A morally grey character who understood what had to be done and had good reasons for doing it. Instead they made him racist, bigoted and corrupted by the Sha.

[@boxoid5230]

i like how Garrosh's "no, it cannot end like this." dialogue mirrors Gul'Dan in the Tomb Of Sargeras.

[@jasonwowhero8147]

Garrosh did nothing wrong. It was all thralls plan cuz he was allied with the jailor.

[@MrFox1231]

Just two moments in MoP they didn't have to do, that wouldn't really break his Stonetalon version. Trying to assassinate Vol'Jin and the torture of Thermaore and other prisoners in Siege of Orgrimmar. Both of which were strictly dishonourable.

[@Vicariun]

I used to hate Garrosh at every opportunity, especially since he nuked Theramore, but platinum actually makes a good point in how Garrosh's actions allowed for a lot of change in the world and other characters. I never looked at it like that. I still think he was too hellbent on being a warmonger but I view his role more positively than before. Thanks again for the banger content!

[@metalkragok3771]

Bravo! Fantastic retelling! Fantastic animations and humor! the best garrosh did nothing wrong video!

[@fastee]

if only garrosh's elders would have tried to talk with him on equal grounds instead of dismissing him as ignorant and dumb... a lot of conflict can be avoided if the morally higher part actually behaves as such, and doesn't expect to be understood by everyone

[@Tom-Pendragon]

He left the game as a fucking chad by unsubscribing at the end of shadowland. I will never forget how much the devs tried to paint him as a loser, when everyone loved him.

[@jncom6500]

I'll say it again, this guy is carrying the wow youtube community alone (Also can you please make a video about sylvanas)

[@canoflop]

U gotta put respect on my boi Rhonin for sacrificing himself at Theramore.

[@achilles_odysseyMusic]

Thanks and Holy Crap, that must of been a lot of work. Love the story telling.

[@jackolantern404]

Fantastic. This is a breath of fresh air versus everyones usual negative views of this expansion.

[@l90316]

Did he do anything wrong though?

[@i.k.2485]

Garrosh did nothing wrong. Garrosh for Warchief!

[@charamander]

He didn't blame his fate, he didn't regret, he don't let anyone judge him, chaotic evil? lawful evil? chaotic neutral? I don't know how to put him on the chart.

[@bionitrixxbtx581]

Wonderful video, I think I've watched this video three times over or so in the past couple of days. It's honestly, really a piece and work of art that hits home as someone who played lots during Siege of Org and WoD. His story is grounded in ways which is understandable, I see people saying all the time they don't like Garrosh because he was working against what the Horde stood for at the time but it kind of makes sense. As explained in this video he was ridiculed, and basically bullied for being his father's son because he drank the demon blood. Garrosh really only wanted to live up to this expectation the moment he heard of the great deeds of his father, explained to him by Thrall. WHo - although up for speculation - would've probably exxagerated those stories given his fondness for Grom. It makes sense for Garrosh to then feel some kind of entitlement, given his father was seen as the Orcs' greatest Hero. He's - as Platinum WoW says - an Orc from a bygone era. And he did nothing wrong. Garrosh even admitted the fact he wasn't ready to be warchief, that he was a warrior, not meant for politics. Thrall not taking his word for it is all on him. Although I do wish they took some more time to work out Garrosh's story rather than rush it. Thrall's Horde was good. But Garrosh' Horde was better. In my opinion, if his advisors and all didn't abandon him he could've been the greatest to this day. Alas...

[@TheLoganM9]

I do love how Cairne was absolutely trouncing Garrosh before the poison set-in.

[@ThePunisher_88]

Garrosh was a hero and was honorable even during stonetalon and the lines he had about the honor there was absolutely not out of character. It was Blizzard that fucked up by making him doing a 180 and changing him into a dishonorable douche later.

[@slumberingowl5704]

Garrosh did nothing wrong thrall set him up for failure