The Big Problem With Orchestral Libraries

[@AshleyKampta2]

Modelling is the future of sample libraries. I think sample libraries should be going smaller in terms of size, not bigger. I've slimmed down to a laptop-based setup, running Audio Imperia Nucleus for traditional samples, with Aaron Venture brass and winds and Pianoteq for keys. My template takes up only a third of the RAM on my 16 GB machine and sounds better than anything I had achieved with other sample libraries previously. I'll be investing in only modelled libraries (Sample Modelling, V-Winds/Horns, Aaron Venture), sound design plugins or budgeting to record real players going forward (with this being the end-game goal), but my days of buying traditionally-sampled orchestral (or other) libraries have definitely come to an end. Why do I need 230 GB of drums (Superior Drummer 3), or 200+ GB of just strings with 26 mic positions (Spitfire HZ Strings)? It's not justifiable for me personally, and really isn't pushing the industry forward in terms of technology, or supporting those who are trying to do new things with sampling.

[@eriong.7446]

Actually imho AI is the future of sample libraries. I’m pretty sure it won’t take too long until there will be an AI model that can read a score and play it. With singers and everything. Like udio just for written music. The sound quality is not that great yet, but I’m sure it will get better. Gone will be the days of midi programming, can’t wait.

[@NeuroPete]

Yes! VWinds/Brass sound fantastic, and are so much easier to produce a natural sounding performance than standard sample libraries, and all without key switches. For the future, I see AI applying a similar nuance of performance as a human would to a set of notes on a page.

[@Reactor10k]

Modelled instruments don’t sound that good. Every time someone talks about how great they sound, I have a listen and there’s something off about them. And, that makes sense. There’s so much more to sounds than the physical reproduction of them.

[@kimseniorb]

its AI not modelling

[@Reactor10k]

@@kimseniorb The original post was about modelling, not AI.

[@NeuroPete]

As hobbyist composer, I admire anyone who can make a living at it. Before retiring from my non-music job 14 months ago, I went crazy buying sample libraries, and other virtual instruments in anticipation of a big drop of income. I spent a lot of money on orchestral libraries from Spitfire and the NI Komplete collection. If I could do it over, I would buy a Musio perpetual license instead, for the price of one or two expensive Spitfire or Cinesample libraries. I got Musio recently to fill in some of the gaps in my instrument collection. There is a huge number of libraries included. It seems that it doesn't have the full controls to create the highest level of convincing and nuanced mockups for professional composers, but I don't have the skill or desire to do so, now that I understand a little about how much work and knowledge is involved. I should have realized that all I really want is to arrange the songs I write with some beautiful orchestral elements that sound not obviously fake. Of course, since I already own the lovely Spitfire stuff, I will use it, but much of the Musio collection is damn nice too, such as the Tina Guo cellos and the Gina Luciani flutes.

[@marcdeschryver7687]

I believe I’m in the same boat as you. Amateur musician/composer, collecting tons of orchestral libraries, choirs, synths of all kind, effect plugins,etc, only to find myself coming back to only a handful that I actually use. And the weird thing is that there are some really cheap ones (orchestral libraries) that I actually like more than some of the more expensive ones. I, like many, have fallen into the trap of clever marketing as well, as my obsession to always own a whole series (e.g Albion, Metropolis Ark,.. ). Lately, though, I’ve woken up and stopped the collecting. I try to focus on actually using the stuff I have, which is more than enough to last me a lifetime.

[@GraemeHindmarsh]

I think it depends on what sort of music you want to make. If I want to mock-up a piece that will ultimately be performed by a real orchestra then I'll always use VSL. They seem to be the closest to what you'll hear in a recording studio. If your music is solely studio based and unlikely to be performed by a live ensemble, then use whatever library sounds good to you! Also, and this applies to all libraries, find out what your samples can do - it will save you money!

[@enzorocha2977]

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[@5ammy13]

This video explains why I absolutely respect Jasper Blunk and Performance Samples. Really innovative sampling and just hard work and commitment to quality :)

[@jameseverett9037]

yea, my fav. string sound is Vista. It has that gritty emotional quality I could never find in other samples. I really wish he had done a viola for his Pacific solo Str. though. And a Bass would be nice.

[@StrezovSampling]

Good points Brian. Still amazed that barely any devs really update their existing products. Yes you cannot capitalize on updates as much as on new releases, but still leaving users with broken products should not be an option.

[@BrianRivlin]

Yup! Showing that you care about your product even after its release makes me (personally) feel like that company cares about maintaining a good relationship with their customers (as opposed to just getting more money out of them). Which, in my books, is more important than shiney new products every month.

[@musiqtee]

A question: There’s a lot of focus on large “Hollywood’y” solutions - and several great ones. However, my productions are within “popular music” (not actually pop), typically where string sections would range from a quartet to like 4-3-2-2. I’ve used partials from an old LASS version, but the mastering of this old product is _very_ bright, showing its age. Could someone suggest a newer’ish library covering smaller sections well? I arrange “old school” from scratch, so I’m fine without ‘phrases’, combos and the likes. Divisi, good legatos, dynamic control, senz. vib. etc are crucial, though… Thanks for inputs… 😊

[@AlonsoJoaquinComposer]

For pop studio stuff I'd recommend CSS. It was recorded with an unconventional setup that makes it not ideal for big sounding cinematic pieces or orchestral music in general but if you mix around the spot/main mics it's surprisingly great at that sound. It does runs, legatos are incredibl still to this day, etc. Way better than other alternatives such as Spitfire Studio Strings (stay away from their Studio series if you can)

[@convolutionsounds4431]

You might try the Spitfire Quartet and the Spitfire Chamber sets. I think with attention to detail they can sound really good. I honestly prefer Chamber over their bigger orchestra sounds.

[@sid5537]

Agree. I tried lots of libraries and come back every time to Spitfire Chamber Strings. Especially for pop, soul etc. @@convolutionsounds4431

[@deiwar2994]

Just wondering how and where you store the libraries? Especially libraries that have VSTi front ends to access the files, SampleScience comes to mind?

[@bunkersamples]

I mostly agree. There are tons of small indie devs out there committed to creating quality libraries, but of course only a few of us can afford to get into the orchestral game. Jasper and Aron have that area pretty well covered from an indie perspective, but the rest of us try to push the envelope in other ways, it’s just hard to break through the noise from the big devs.

[@joecm]

Hey who are you referencing here with Jasper and Aron? Thanks

[@jameseverett9037]

@@joecm Jasper Blunt of Performance Samples, and I don't know who Aron is. Might be the Cinematic dude, I think last name is Banks or something....down in Aussie land.

[@redbigapplefloppa302]

What all-in-one orchestral library solution do you guys suggest? I have kontakt but i work with individual samples most of the time (hiphop producer). I feel like i'm missing a good library that lets me create hq orchestral samples on my own.

[@SineEyed]

For only a few more days, 8Dio is selling a bundle of 10 of its libraries for less than the average retail price of just one of those libraries. They're selling what would be over $3200 of their products for only $199. That's a crazy good deal. They've included everything you'd need and more to get into orchestral composing. Strings, horns, winds, percussion, and more... it's all there. If you're not familiar with 8Dio, I can tell you that their sound quality is amazing. It's lush and full of life, and you'll find lots of inspiring surprises within each library. I would strongly suggest you look into it. Just be aware that the download size of the complete bundle is over *300 GB* -- so if you were going to make the purchase, I would advise buying an external ~500gb SSD drive to store all the libraries in their own dedicated space..

[@micheleduritto]

Do you have Kontakt full or Kontakt Player?

[@redbigapplefloppa302]

@@micheleduritto i have full kontakt, yes.

[@DesoloZantas]

The biggest issue with all libraries is their inconsistency. There's always something missing in one that another offers, but then that second library lacks something else entirely. It becomes a constant struggle to find a compromise, but if you need specific features to work together, it can feel nearly impossible. Combining libraries is an option, but that often introduces EQ matching problems and inconsistencies between recordings, breaking the illusion you're trying to create when blending them. After 16 years of experience, I’ve found this to be a persistent challenge. If there were a library that could learn from all the others and perfect a single instrument, I’d say VirHarmonic's Bohemian Solo Strings comes closest. What sets it apart is the painstaking attention to detail-each instrument feels like it took years to perfect, and they only offer three solo strings. The Bohemian Violin in particular stands out for its realism and depth. If I could find other instruments, whether ensembles or solos, as meticulously crafted as that violin, it would truly be my Holy Grail.

[@DesoloZantas]

The Bohemian series by VirHarmonics is so well-designed that you don’t even need to use the mod wheel for dynamic riding-it’s all handled automatically. It’s incredibly intuitive and seamless. I truly hope the company continues making instruments because this series remains the most mind-blowing sample library I’ve ever encountered. Even now, I still stand by that statement.

[@diglyd]

So what are your 3 main libraries, and what are your other 2-3 that you use to layer or fill in? Maybe consider making a video giving your recommendations while discussing some more nuance. Which ones do you think play well together? Which increase or improve your workflow? Which sound good to you? What do you consider to be quality libraries and/or synths/instruments? Personally, I'm still a huge fan of Omnisphere, Zebra2/Diva, Albion One, Cinebrass, Cineperc, Tina Guo Cello, OT Berlin Woodwinds, Cinematic Studio Series, The Etheras, Oceania Choir, Abbey Road One Foundations (as a supplementary library), BBC Core ($240 on sale was a pretty good deal for an entire orchestra in a box), Albion Solstice, and some of the NI Komplete stuff like Damage, The Giant/Alicia's Keys/Una Corda pianos, Thrill for more aleatoric stuff, and Mysteria. I stopped buying stuff once I got these and a few niche things. Haven't bought a string library in years. The only thing I still want to get at some point is E/W Hollywood Opus, just so I can check out the strings and play with the orchestrator. It's a lot cheaper now compared to what it was at release, and still a lot of value. On a side note, AI companies such as OpenAI or ElevenLabs and Udio or Suno will probably make Sample libraries, and sample library developers who don't integrate AI, obsolete. Maybe not yet, but in 2-3 years or so, its going to happen because this stuff is moving at an incredible pace. I won't need a sample library when I will be able to tell some AI to add some violins or a chamber orchestra or some choir to the score I wrote, or the melody I hummed. Some companies like Cinesamples are jumping on the AI bandwagon, but guys like Spitfire are still stuck in the past believing that people are going to be spending 2k on some bs overpriced modular Abbey Road library that nobody actually asked for, or needs, that they claim is the next best thing since slice bread. Spitfire makes some great things, but it also makes complete garbage, and are sometimes completely out of touch. For example, find me a single use case for their Cassette Orchestra. I can't. I haven't seen a single review or a single person who actually made anything with that library. I learned to not buy into any more marketing bs or gas.

[@phoenixrising4995]

BBCSO, Albion One, Abbey Road Two Strings over here. I also got VCSO2 for ethnic texture stuff.

[@AtiDBitai]

UVI?

[@PeterTomlinsonComposer]

This is why Jasper Blunk and Aaron Sapp are my two favorite devs. They both genuinely care about pushing the art of sampling forward. And their products are really incredible

[@loicdesjardinsmusic]

Actually VSL ticks a lot of points : you can try libraries, you can resell them, they are useful and not niche at all and they stand time very well (Dimension Strings for example) Only complaints : they are quite expensive and yes, keyswitches (I’m fond of KS but not everyone’s cup of tea). Besides, how’s your Open Stage Control project?

[@BrianRivlin]

Interesting!! Yeah I don’t know why I never got into the VSL world. But they REALLY seem to care about their product and not get carried away by library trends. Sounds like they’re worth the money (even if they’re a little expensive). As for my OSC project, I pretty much dropped all touch screens and moved to more stream decks and shortcuts. I realized I need more tactile feedback. Maybe I’ll come back around one day.

[@busyworksbeats]

For us music producers in hip hop, the libraries were just WAY too expensive. I understand quality costs but when each library costs more than the DAW, it’s a hard decision to make. Maybe for you guys getting $2,000+ sync fees, it’s pennies lol but to most music producers not in sync, the prices were the hard obstacle.

[@HieuAnNguyen-qd9oq]

Just pirate it lol

[@rct3isepic]

There's tons of free alternatives. While I don't make hip hop I do make Electronic music, and there's lots of ways to get good orchestra samples for free or very little. For example, there's a free BBC orchestra, project Sam has 2 versions of the free orchestra, VSL has some real good free stuff, and if you have Kontakt proper there's a fantastic free group of libraries under the Alpine label.

[@HieuAnNguyen-qd9oq]

@@rct3isepic None of those can even hold a candle to CSS and Spitfire Chamber Strings

[@rct3isepic]

@HieuAnNguyen-qd9oq the library doesn't make the Composer. You can compose good music on any of the ones I just mentioned. And it's not illegal

[@HieuAnNguyen-qd9oq]

@@rct3isepic Of course it doesn't, but you're misunderstanding the role of the library. The role of the library is for production purposes and you can't get that with cheap libraries.

[@AlexWeidmannComposer]

I wonder how the strings built into Logic Pro X compare with Hollywood Strings 1? Has anyone done a side by side comparison? Logic seems to have most of the articulations covered: so I don't see why I should buy another strings library?

[@this.is.shashwat]

There is a reason nobody talk about logic’s strings. spoiler: they are ass

[@AlexWeidmannComposer]

@@this.is.shashwat Apparently they've got much better in recent years; but I don't have much else to compare them to. The only other string libraries I've used are Muse Sounds, and Music Studio for iPad. Once you start automating the midi ccs to add vibrato, portamento lirico, etc..., the Logic Pro strings sound pretty good to me. I'd like someone to explain exactly how they're inferior?

[@0e0]

I got spitfire BBC Core but I find the reverb to wet so one day i'll Upgrade to BBC Professional and I think that will be enough to hold me for a bit.

[@alvarorodriguezfilmmusic]

So true, I've been saying this for years. In fact it's always surprised me how developers have managed to stay afloat for so long without selling anything better. And don't get me wrong, they've been selling new interesting stuff too. But these libraries aren't usually traditional orchestral libraries and aren't definitely the 'big name/big release' they try to build hype about - those big names are ALWAYS traditional orchestral libraries.

[@honigdachs.]

I stopped buying orchestral libraries years ago. I used to be on the hunt for the best, greatest, most realistic and expressive, etc., and I wish I could get the money I spent while on this quest, haha. After acquiring enough of these things, I realized that they all sound good. As long as you know what you're doing, there's a certain level of quality you can achieve in your mockups and any "major" library can get you there. There is no need for more libraries until some real quantum leap happens that redefines the whole idea of sampling and/or modelling. And I don't see that happening any time soon.

[@phoenixrising4995]

I can't wait for physical moddeling for all instruments to improve with AI. With OpenAI and ChatGPT I could see an AI generated physically modeled orchestra thing being reality. Than I wouldn't need a beast of an SSD to run them. Video games have the same problem as orchestra libraries in that regard.

[@tronam]

New products by Performance Samples still impress me after all these years. I also love how imperfect they sound.

[@BrianRivlin]

Imperfect is where life and realism lives IMO. And yes, their proof of concept videos for upcoming are very promising!

[@eylam9690]

Kinda curious, by the way... how did you land your first composing job with that TV show?

[@ShaniArshadMusic]

I can’t believe I heard you for 12 mins. You’re absolutely right!

[@jimrogers7425]

Great video! Spitfire is now beginning to flirt with the subscription model. However, since Christian’s departure from the company it feels like their heart and soul has diminished, if not completely disappeared. You make many valid points here… thank you for your willingness to speak out! Cheers!

[@TheJonHolstein]

Still to this point, if there is any company i might feel like subscribing to, it would be spitfire, as they release enough of varied new content. However, I suspect a spitfire complete subscription, would simply be way too expensive. After them, NI has potential, as when their own ideas run out, they can always license a bunch of 3rd party libraries, to make sure each new iteration comes with enough new stuff. And if it help DAW developers to updating the feature-set continuously, it could make some sense to subscribe to a DAW.

[@Gardener7]

Spitfire has this labs subscription thing which won't include any of their valuable libraries, but new ones which don't exist yet. That's what I read.

[@jigsound]

Very well put. Thanks for sharing! 👍 I feel quite the same way about Hollywood Strings, although nowadays I'm adding quite a bit of colors from ProjectSAM Symphobias and Spitfire Chamber Strings among some other select libraries. ✨ Legato patches are, indeed, a revealing element in how well many of these things have been thought out. Bohemian violin is, so far, the only dedicated solo violin vsti I have been able to tolerate, having grown up close to the real deal. 😅 - Eero

[@BrianRivlin]

Yeah anything ProjectSAM ads a lot of life and flavour for sure. I wouldn’t use it as my main library (depending on the scene) and for sure as added color. And solo strings are SO hard to make. For me personally, Cinematic Studio Solo Strings for a small quartet sound. And I’m really looking forward to Performance Samples’ solo strings. The demos sound VERY promising.

[@empatikokumalar8202]

I dream of having the tools to make music just for myself, without any professional concerns. But there are so many options. I'm undecided about which ones are the most accurate. The tools I want to use are seaboart rise2, Pa5x korg, some libraries I chose from Global Sound sweden as backing sound, and strings, wind instruments, drums and guitar from the swam sound library. Eastern sounds (Indian, Arabic, Turkish instruments) from the contact library, I think that's enough. However, I could not make a decision about the program. I want your suggestion. There will either be programs related to the Mac system or Windows. Studio One seems to be the most advanced. But it only works with subscription. I don't want such a thing. It would be nice if its own sound library was also sufficient. Although Cubase is very advanced, it is said that it is not very user-friendly. Frankly, I don't need that much professionalism. Which one do you recommend?

[@TwstedTV]

What do you think about EW-OPUS in Q4-2024? I have just seen OPUS go for $218

[@dkbbass403]

Thanks for taking time to make this, it's stopping buying more libraries I really don't 'need' just because they're on sale. I have subscribed to EW to try HD2 and so far have had big problems with Violins 1 legato doing some very weird things, for example playing two notes together a semi tone apart 😮. Tech support did respond very quickly but not solved. So far glad i haven't bought it. A review of HS2 would be great.

[@BrianRivlin]

Yup. I’m getting the same behaviour in HS2 as well. This is what caught me by surprise when I tried it at first. They already have such a great HS1 product. Why is HS2 not as good?! 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@thirdeye7786]

@@BrianRivlin I have both HS1 and HS2 and what you describe sound like you are trying to place two notes at the same time? The legato works for me in the same way in HS1 and HS2, where you must play a melodic line. None of the legato patches will play polyphonic if you try to play a chord or something

[@dkbbass403]

Sorry I didn't make myself clear, when playing the same note over and over say 16ths suddenly one of the notes will sound together with a note a semi tone up😮. When you play a legato line you seem to get two notes sounding together for a moment, long enough to notice. Maybe I'm expecting too much but I've not had this problem with other libraries, lag yes, but not sounding together.

[@victorcobane6644]

For me personally, as someone who has limited time and limited funds, and who isn't even ready to release anything yet, much less make a profit or anything, I think that while getting a library that is "just right" could help boost my track by 1 or 2 percent to the finish line, I have to realize that that 1 or 2 percent might just not be in the budget, time or money wise. I would much rather just buy one or two libraries I am confident in and I feel will work for most of what I want to attempt and then pour my time, money, and soul into that remaining 98% to make it as good as possible. Especially considering the fact that if I spend too much time and effort on finding the perfect sound or patch, it will actually hurt that remaining 98%, the composition, what I actually like and care about, since I won't have any time or energy left for it. That's just my perspective though.

[@jameseverett9037]

It's a very accurate perspective. We forget how limited our time for actual composing is. And by the time you get all the libraries you want, they're obsolete, and better stuff is out. I made a list of all my obsolete libraries, and it was so depressing, even realizing I had never really gotten around to using some of the more expensive ones. Instead, I spent my time earning the money to pay for them, rather than making music. Such a slippery slope for many of us.

[@ephjaymusic]

There's pros and cons to all the libraries. I prefer to use libraries that offer control with a UI that I can cope with, even if it requires a bit of time to learn. LASS and MSS are more complicated than most other libraries imo, but that's basically all I use for the majority of all the string work I do and I love them to bits. As long as you're ok with creating a bunch of automation lanes, they do exactly what I need and I think they can sound very convincing. I've also had happy feedback from music supervisors who are extremely critical about things like realism for orchestral work, so to me at least, this is a good sign. A cute feature of going to study orchestration at a formal institution is having libraries to mess about with before deciding to purchase one, as many music schools have a bunch of libraries already installed, and often the teachers will bring a dedicated HD+license key with them to use when giving a class. But obviously the cost of the education like that far outweighs the cost of most libraries...😂 I waited a couple of years before buying any specific libraries, and really "spammed" my teachers and friends beforehand to make sure I knew all about them/try them out at their studios etc. before dropping my cash on anything. Thanks for the video! Really interesting topic, and I definitely agree that orchestral libraries have basically plateaued in the last few years.

[@jprykiel]

Hi Brian. This might be off-topic here, but since you know a lot about strings libraries, I thought I would ask my question Anyway. Do you know about a library that would feature full strings patches for live playing, but with a special articulation I’ve been unable to find so far, fast attackss with sustains. Something like what we had on our good old Kurtzweil K1000 if you remember, only with round Robbins more samples and so on. It’s easy to find marcattos and spicattos, but nothing actually gives you this type of attack with infinite sustains. Thanks for coming back to me if you know any. Best regards

[@donaldduck8374]

What I want to see much more often in libraries are patches that recognize my playing style and determine which articulation is most appropriate at the moment, resembling the lively playing of a real musician. There's nothing worse than trying to mimic an organic playing style using key switches or many different tracks.

[@serox8887]

I think orchestral tools always pushes the boundaries. I can't think of a single library I bought from OT that didn't blow my mind.

[@KrystofDreamJourney]

10:56. Essential comment ! Myself- I pretty much got everything I needed libraries wise around about 2 years ago. That was the last time I purchased anything (filling in the last gaps in all orchestral sections). The sounds, articulations, realism got pretty much so perfect that IMHO they already reached an apogee of design and sonic demands in the hands of a skilled composer/orchestrator. There’s not much (if anything) one can add to what already existed 2 years ago, so buying “new” products makes zero sense if you’re satisfied with the results you can achieve with what you already have. All it takes now is your own creativity, amount of time (oh yes, it does take time !) you can devote to perfect each and every every line… Careful Hybriding is the key if you want to achieve “your” timber. I doubt if I will ever purchase anything anymore, unless someone creates the way to do your own portamentos between any combination of strings notes (YOUR combinations, with your starting and ending notes, with your tempo etc. NOT the pre-recorded ones with fixed duration and notes).

[@tregdemedia]

I’ve only been doing composing/producing for a hobby for about 3 years. I already have more libraries than I can keep up with. And I definitely don’t need anymore ensemble or “toolkit” libraries. I find myself gravitating towards phrase libraries with midis drag and drop or sound design libraries with very unique tool sets. These help my workflow and keep me feeling inspired and productive.

[@LearnCompositionOnline]

Great analysis! Did you try the new Soundiron strings? I guess they tried exactly this, to solve some problems other devs still didn’t

[@BrianRivlin]

I haven’t. But thanks for the suggestion! You know, there are so many libraries out there, it’s hard to keep up with all of them, so some of them are down to go unnoticed by some of the users. I’ll check some demos out. 🙏🏻

[@IlkoBirov]

Also, on the topic of Try Before You Buy, 8Dio used to do something interesting: release a limited-scale version of a library for a fraction of the price, just so users could get a feel for what it could do. It was fully functional, but with fewer samples (and a range of one octave). Great video btw, I agree with what you are saying and I've noticed the same thing in recent years. I too still get excited when I read about the upcoming BEST THING EVER library, only to find that it's a 60GB legato-only module with 30 mic positions or something of that sort. Companies seem to be putting more effort into putting out more libraries than putting out good-sounding and well-scripted ones.

[@AudiarOfficial]

And then there are those of us that refuse to spend money on our musical hobbies and have to make do with free libraries and plugins 😅 There are actually a lot of great free instruments out there, and it can be a fun challenge to work with them and find ways to hide their imperfections. When it comes to orchestral sounds, Spitfire Audio, LABS, and SINE Player have some pretty great free options out there, but they do lack some of that epic sound though... But thank you for suggesting we just play our own instruments (even if we play somewhat poorly), I am definitely going to give that a shot. Great video btw!

[@JohnMarshall-NI]

My current favourites are the Virharmonic Bohemian series solo instruments. The 'AI' assisted articulation switching and style modes is where all of these libraries and sample players should be headed. So much faster work flow.

[@Maplefoxx-vl2ew]

probalby zero offset delay too right? this is what all libraries need. i will uninstall CSS because of this.. been pulling out my hair all week

[@adamfrechette8449]

I got the Instant Cello because I saw it on sale. Never heard it. Watch some KZbin reviews and was blown away. Bought it for $50 and boy this thing is WAY ahead of any solo strings I have.

[@rhicksmusic]

I agree with the sentiment here. My gripe currently, is that some library brands consider themselves composers first. This isn't acceptable anymore and no-one is falling for that boutique artisan rhetoric. You are a SOFTWARE COMPANY. Ensure you're working on latest OS updates, patches etc. Don't leave your libraries to fester. Anyone remember the last update to BBC Symphonic Orchestra? It's still not even fully signed off on operating systems two years old. With the playing-field so level in terms of quality and realism, you'll stand out more by being known for stability, compatibility and excellent support. I'm leaning more and more towards Kontakt libraries as I know NI will regularly be working on this platform.

[@phoenixrising4995]

BBCSO doesn't need to be signed, the Spitfire App does and is. What is annoying is sometimes your presets will disappear from the plugin. That is my only real gripe with the dedicated player.

[@KieranZaneRoberts]

I relate to your situation 100% coming from around 2010 as well and I hate it lol great video though man! I think Spitfire were the last group I was impressed by.

[@magalamusic]

Please don’t stop making these vids!

[@mikeciul8599]

Maybe the solution is for composers to form a union in solidiarity with orchestras? Get studios to pay for the real thing?

[@WillyJunior]

I don't really think orchestral libraries have peaked in the last few years. Most companies are adding nothing new except marketing. For me, Performance Samples is really doing something new.

[@lovelymusicnow4404]

Whats your thoughts on OPUS?

[@BrianRivlin]

Opus as a player is a step up from Play in terms of UI and load times but I find that I miss the original patches in HS1 in Play that don’t exist anymore in the Opus version. So a little better, and a bit worse. I guess it’s a fair trade off.

[@lovelymusicnow4404]

@@BrianRivlin interesting. What specific patches or are you talking about like just the overall sound?

[@lovelymusicnow4404]

@@BrianRivlin also do you know if the re-recorded a new Orchestra for opus? Or is it the same samples just mixed different mixing, scripting, their own ui player etc?

[@beatbuildersstudio]

Really great breakdown. I didn't consider competition would lead to products being not as good. I use Native Instruments collection of strings and brass. I really love the sound for what I do. I make music for sync licensing and the brass hits sound so good to me.

[@Maplefoxx-vl2ew]

as a new composer using DAW for 2 yrs now.. i will never buy something with offset delays again.. sure i love the sound of CSS but i can't even play an action strings line of shorts off my keybaord in time.. it's impossible.. i've tried all the tips from vi forums.. nothing fixes it.. CSS control panel , offset your track.. nothing works... i'm switch over to Sample Modelling or SWam very soon..... 2 other youtube composers deleted my comments from saying this... Am i even allowed to have opinions.. i'm very unmotivated by the extremely gatekeepy composing community online.. Everyone telling you how your supposed to sound or what we should buy... and no one mentioning OFFSET DELAYS.. i can't deal with them anymore.. it makes me punch the air and pull own my own hair.. if you catch my drift. Tokyo Scoring Strings WILL play in time.. i never see composers talking about it... like if i would have known about this i would never ever have purchased CSS or CSB.. it's driving me crazy honestly man.. i care about having things work in my midi.. CSS and CSB dont' even match each other's timing .. it makes me cry... i spend a lot of money on them... if only the youtubers who convinced me they were the best would have explained offset delays... i'm literally so upset about this for months now. I was able to get Tokyo Scoring Strings but now i need brass that plays in time.. like i'll have to get Aaron Ventures infinite brass i think. I will come back tommorow see if you reply or delete this comment... everyone deletes my opinions.. i'm starting to dislike the online community.. they pushed Cory over the Edge with all that toxicity on vi forums, i read the entire thing... .. i used to watch him he was the best and honest about things.

[@phoenixrising4995]

That is the problem with CSS. I got BBCSO Pro, Abbey Road Two Iconic Strings, Albion One Colossus and VCSO2 for ethnic stuff. If one can't play the library in, then it has no real life and is only good at offline render. CSS even with 1.7 seems real bad for inputting runs in real-time. Avoid it. Performance samples has a look ahead feature which helps though.

[@TheJonHolstein]

SWAM are more like playing instruments, so you really have to get used to playing with controllers. Yes there is a lot of gatekeeping, and a lot of strange beliefs with no bases in science.

[@caiogracco9129]

Hi, Brian, I tend to disagree when you say that even a poorly played cello does better than a virtual one. Yes, there is the richness, the multi layer details, all the nuances, etc. But, well, if you don't have at least a decent performance, a virtual tool may offer better results. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience.

[@DerekPower]

So I recently got just the Male and Female Choir part of Orchestral Tools's Tallinn. I got it for a very specific project and because it had a very specific characteristic that I knew was perfect for what I was doing, which was having the Estonian Philharmonic Chamber Choir, who has often premiered Arvo Pärt's compositions. I am very pleased with it and it will serve me very well for this particular purpose. I agree with a lot of what you put forth. I think it's recognizing that there is such a thing as diminishing returns when it comes to products available. I also think it's important to practice due diligence on a product before committing to it, so yes having trial periods and the like. In my aforementioned case, I liked that I could pay for a portion of a library, rather than the entire thing. That way, I am only paying for what I really need and I can pay for the rest of it if needed at a pro-rated price. There's probably more but that's enough for now =]

[@BrianRivlin]

I totally agree! I think Orchestral Tools did an amazing thing allowing customers to buy just what they need. It feels like more companies should implement this feature. Cheers! 🙌🏻

[@MikJames-d1g]

The big problem is, they're all the same... Also there are free options that can be made to sound far better than they do out of the box, with just a bit of technique and processing. For example, load up the Cellos and Basses from BBC Discover with the stock sounds play them and they sound like crap. Now add a notch eq around 2.5khz -2 or 3db, tune the cellos up an octave, add a second bass track, tune it down an octave with the built in down tuner, -6db, add a subtle curve high pass filter around 80hz, and throw ReaLoud on the track with the mix% mapped to the modwheel, add some big reverb. Suddenly you have apocalyptic sounding strings right out of a Zimmer track, you don't even notice the lack of legato on big verby sections as long as you blend the note together a bit with a sustain pedal, but if you need legato strings you can always layer in a solo cello with legato to act as a first chair. Processing and blending is super important to get anything "Zimmer" esque, if you can do it yourself there's no real reason to buy them. The libraries worth buying are the great all rounders that will lend themselves to the quieter/more traditional orchestration, like BBC Orchestra, Symphonic/Hollywood Orchestra, Nucleus. Making it sound big and loud isn't worth paying $$$ for. The one exception might be Metropolis, but it doesn't really sound "bigger", just louder and grittier.

[@chintimin]

12 minutes to say "samples suck, libraries are expensive, just $$$ musicians"

[@BrianRivlin]

Basically 🤷🏻‍♂️

The most sensible advice I've come across re orchestral libraries 👌! Even as an amateur I'm at times tempted by Spitfire Audio and NI's marketing whizz-bang, looking for a nice choral library to add to BBCSO Core that I own. Thanks a ton, this will make me count at least to 100 before hitting any 'buy' button. Looking forward to seeing more of your videos!

[@Thr3-Words]

I was so dissapointed by Spitfire’s BBCSO that I decided that enough is enough: I’m not buying another orchestral library unless it’s based on both physical modelling and intelligent lookahead (which twenty years ago was a thing)

[@Gardener7]

What don't you like about it? I don't own it, but know I only has 2 dynamic layers.

[@envrie9423]

In terms of orchestral libraries, I believe all you truly need is a solid work horse set of libraries or a singular library. I think what interest me is niche sampling of rare and personal instruments. Experimental hybrid ambient samples. I’ve really been liking what the crow hill company has done so far. Probably my favorite sample library company right now.

[@BrofUJu]

This is how I feel. And then I've filled in from there. Hollywood Brass which is huge, but lacks some low end. I've got another brass library which has way more low end and they're massive together.

[@envrie9423]

@@BrofUJu True, mixing orchestral libraries is essential for me as well. There's different weaknesses for almost every library. I've heard some incredible results when people mix modeled with recorded libraries

[@NotEnoughPrana]

"We can tell when the product is great - and when it's not" Amen, brother. So many companies in so many different fields just seem to... not understand this. Beats me.

[@riffmason]

Excellent video congrats on this, subscribed :)

[@jjc75019]

I couldn't agree more, and not just about orchestral libraries or movie genre. The same is true all across the board. I limited myself to Omnisphere(+trillian), Falcon, Komplete, Dune3, and EZ Drummer. No more GAS (gear acquisition syndrome),

[@michail_777]

Does Nativ really have the sound of a Stradivarius violin?

[@BrianRivlin]

They do! And it sounds… ok…? 🤷🏻‍♂️ (Just my opinion)

[@petterrong1590]

​@@BrianRivlin It sounds really bad IMO. Even the Performance Samples freebie from a few years ago sounds way better😅

[@Adam-g-uk]

Im surprised none of these orchestra vsts have made a plugin with an automatable conductor yet...

[@dewdrop3503]

I totally agree with you that being able to try a library before buying it would be a game changer. My very first Spitfire library was ... unfortunately ... the Olafur Arnalds library because I had no clue what I was doing. It was a pricey library and certainly for someone out there the exact right library but it was not so for me. I was beyond disappointed and used it only one or two times in my life. This experience kept me from buying any other product from Spitfire again because I am too afraid of spending money on the wrong product.

[@ARCHVILE_DRS]

9:20 I don't get the joke

[@CaseyFulton-OrchestralAudio]

The enjoyment of hearing a real musician and acoustic instrument perform your work is the real magic.

[@nonchai]

I hate that i cant resell the license for my SPITFIRE BBC SO library - props to NI for allowing that and making the process smooth

[@busyworksbeats]

Thank you! You reminded me of the libraries I bought and forgot about and also showed me new ones to try! Thank you!🔥❤️🙏

[@sj-comps]

yoo why does nobody recognize you lmaoo

[@LearnCompositionOnline]

3:19 haha do these great people still post on VI-Controlation (where to ask if someone reads music is rude) ? They have to found an independent forum without anonymous nicknames gatekeeping and mobbing people with “classical” values, and where the moderator doesn’t stop any thread with opinions he doesn’t like. This will be the huge contribution to composers and developers facing professionally REAL problems, and who want something beyond amateur hobbies.

[@micheleduritto]

I mean....we should just make one, it is not that difficult to do while spending not a lot of money (just the domain the rest you can do as good as that forum for free and with even more features if you wan), the only problem is time...lots of time......... and commitement, and also the ability to reach the public as well, since VI has a monopoly in the orchestral composing space.

[@5ammy13]

Pacific Ensemble Strings is what blew me way most recently. It just sounds like that sound and in a mix, it sounds sooooo good.

[@BrofUJu]

600 USD? Holy moly. Will stick with my EW subscription sadly, lol

[@5ammy13]

@@BrofUJu Totally understandable. I got it with Loyalty and Intro and it was like 299 or something, so absolute steal at that price :)

[@5ammy13]

Also, shoutout to another expensive library, Afflatus Strings. Really nice stuff :)

[@HieuAnNguyen-qd9oq]

@@BrofUJu pirate it then

[@AlonsoJoaquinComposer]

@@BrofUJu It was $250 on intro sale

[@mrbuffwoopmusic8788]

Incredibly expensive indeed. Most libraries cost more than what they are actually worth, and the fact that i can't ask for a refund most of the time is just another kick in the nuts. Just download vital and make all the sounds yourself. Best alternative.

[@tolisgamer]

Congratulations for this video!!!!

[@vigh4696]

Omg Thankyou for saying this out!

[@steviek6484]

Great video. Love to hear what is bad about HS2

[@uncle-ed]

I mix a lot of high budget orchestral scores. Hollywood Strings and CSS are the only two that even come close to live recordings.

[@BrianRivlin]

Agreed!

[@alexcrayfish]

As far as the demos or trials are concerned, I completely agree with you. Steinberg gives you 60 days to use Cubase Pro (as an example) without restriction, so you can really weigh up whether you really want to spend the 400 or 500 euros or dollars. I understand that smaller companies in particular may fear a financial loss as a result. But before I spend tons of money on a single library - at least give me 7 days to test it.

[@ElectroPanPipes]

VSL offer demo/trials, you can sell them, and their support is excellent. Hence I only buy their stuff now. I still use the older VI Cube libs, as they dry as a bone and detailed beyond most modern offerings. Oh, and their Player doesn't have a GIANT knob in the middle or look like a 90's sampler :)

[@Alexholbert]

Great Video! Very Concise and to the point!

[@MichelBarbaro]

Great topic! Great video! Do more in this format👏🏻

[@BrianRivlin]

Thank you!! This was actually an attempt to do something new. Glad you liked it. 🙏🏻🙌🏻

[@lamps2137]

Check the Swam modeling instruments. Physical modeling is getting really good, we may be able to leave the samples soon.

[@randallharp7010]

Great points altogether. My go-to orchestral library is still EWQL Symphonic Orchestra Gold which I licensed in 2011. With its wide selection of articulations, a realistic score is very doable. In this brave new world of AI, I, too believe that modeling will replace sampling. Combined with MPE, I'm optimistic about the potential.

[@miekwavesoundlab]

I’m satisfied with EW composer cloud ☁️

[@JH-pe3ro]

There's a ceiling to what you can do by buying more timbres, and I think we're pretty close to it. As a hobbyist, I got off the train of buying samples and plugins ages ago and re-embraced chiptunes. The professional composer is in more of a bind since they're regularly asked to make their work sound "realistic" (i.e. expensive) but the toolset they're using for that is an imitation, and it has, since the dawn of MIDI, enforced a certain kind of workflow to pursue realism by doing extra work to cover up all the flaws in the samples. Thus, all the arrangements where the sections are layered with percussive instruments and solo voices are limited to amelodic blasts with no dynamics - Hans Zimmer did it and you can too. I did have thoughts of getting a cheap recorder and playing with that. There's a session instrument for ya.

[@nonchai]

Wee correction: Windows XP was released in 2001 (?why do I remember this? Because it’s the only time I switched to windows from Mac - before OSX - because XP gave me a true robust pre-emptive operating system

[@BrianRivlin]

Thanks for the correction. In my research I searched for what Windows version was released in 2003 and the result was XP. I guess google got it wrong 😂

[@CraigRodmellMusic]

At the end of the day, the very best libraries/instruments for composing with or making music with, are the ones that you HAVE, not the ones you wish you had. I have Spitfire BBCSO Core. A very good all round library, which I love, and has absolutely made me as a composer. The next logical step for me would be BBCSO Professional, but that will have to wait until the pocket is ready. In the meantime, I will continue to compose and record using BBCSO Core and my MIDI hardware instruments, because those are what I have.

[@Drakensson]

My go-to is Spitfire: Epic Strings with my modification (of Ostinato) I have called Radio Strings. It simulates a martelè sound that also keeps the iconic reverb of the AIR hall. I'm the kind of guy that sacrifices realism for aggression. Less is more

[@MichaelDowComposer]

I only occasionally buy intersting fairy dust type sample libraries now like Emergence Audio texture libraries

[@danielhelmstedt557]

Its so crazy - had the Miroslav Philharmonik 1 decades ago and the cellos were (personally) the best sounding I ever had for my music (less cinematic music more electronic stuff). I personally do not like the Kontakt Factory Library at all - it all sounds so muddy/ muffled for me. In general it is not pleasing to use Kontakt 7 in general - everything is buggy, slow loading times and often crashes. There are so much outstanding plugins out there e.g. Slate+Ash but the Kontakt is limiting these plugins…😓

[@mustechnology]

The last orchestra that really surprised me was NotePerformer. It's a synth.

[@LeonChart]

As a part time shopaholic I have to say that Spitfire Symphony Orchestra at 280 euros (50% sales) is the best deal. In addition Musio 1 perceptual licence at 200 euros (50% sales every 2-3 months) is a great addition… So with 500 euros you could do what was impossible a few years ago. The WOW factor these days is the price and not the libraries themselves. For me, best purchase I ever made is Vflutes from Acoustic Samples. I also own Vbrass and saxes and I have to say I’m pretty impressed and inspired by the level of performance of these libraries.

[@RafaelPSchaefer]

As a starting composer, is really overwelming how many shitty libreries are out there. Its a pain in the ass to "test"(U know what i mean) every single one to find "THE ONE" that you feel comfortable trowing your mony at it just to find out that a 10+year had a batter sound all along. I wish that companies made one really good library for each section of the orchestra (WW, Brass, Percussion and Strings) and just than start to make a bunch of specific ones like Tin Flute or bag pipes... this would make our lives much easier

[@serox8887]

I really dont think that modelling is THE future. It probably has a place in a full orchestral template. But the sound of sampled instruments is just so extremley realistic that I personally don't need anything more versatile than that. At some point the amount of work you need to adjust every single parameter in the modelled instrument becomes so time consuming that it's not worth it. It sound worse and it's more work. I don't get it. AI is different in that case because it could make things faster, better and more versitile at the same time. The only problem with ai is that you need so much training data that it becomes almost impossible to make an ultimate scoring ai. All the big companys would have to combine and make one epic product for this to work. Otherwise it will take a pretty long time for ai to have a place in samples libraries. And for most instruments ai will probably not be better. It will just be different. With things like choir this is a different story I think. Because everyone needs voices and voices are so unique that ai will probably play a big role in that regard. People are happy with what they have and it's already extremley easy to make music with all of the librarys we have that ai will just not be a very big market in music.

[@jameseverett9037]

That's true, which is why I think a.i., will bring something unexpected, rather than the obvious attempts at improving virtual instruments. Who's going to put out the cash while they already have a bunch of sample libraries? Until they get us over the key switching, and limitations of loading various articulations...having a string player on a single track who can play any articulation seamlessly, as well as any nuance of legato, slur and dynamic, all by the a.i. player's own interpretation of your score. The big breakthrough will be a complete virtual orchestra with individual players who can read a score. Plus a new scoring system for amateurs to communicate their ideas to the Virtual Orchestra players and conductor. No need for separate tracks [unless you want them].

[@MBynum]

Last string library that completely impressed me to buy it without hesitation was Spitfire Appassionata Strings. Yeah, it doesn't have shorts or tremelo, but it didn't stop me from improvising with other libraries that I already had to compliment SA like Albion One.

[@MarkSlaterMusic]

I recorded soundtracks with the LSO and other orchestras, and created soundtracks for several theatrical films using samples only. I spent money on libraries and plugin. But apart from Eastwest, I regret every one I bought, incl. Spitfire and 8Dio. And now, I also hate music.

[@AlonsoJoaquinComposer]

You should look into devs who care doing new things (beyond traditional sampling) and also care about their customers. Yes they exist, it's a very small % of them

[@NegativeReferral]

These libraries will take up your SSD storage memory and put a big hole in your wallet. And they're not satisfying to play with the latency they recover if you plan on playing them live. Trust me... I'm very fortunate to have most of a "nest egg" still there after buying like 30 of them on sale... and I gravitate more to synth stuff anyway. BBC symphony orchestra doesn't even have in-tune cellos! It works for horror (I don't mind, and often enjoy, microtonal stuff)... but c'mon, it's supposed to be a one-stop shop library! OT and Spitfire clearly prioritize advertising over developing better plugins that only appealed to me before I bought the full version of Kontakt. Audio software companies have no business developing faulty audio software only kept afloat by the content. These libraries are also a pain to mix, and combining the longs with the staccatos sounds weird. I'm more of a synth/sound design person than a classical/orchestral person anyway, so I could be biased (I've had a lot more fun making crazy wavetable and granular stuff with a sample of a former high school friend's voice I recorded on PhasePlant...) but c'mon... I think these libraries are a poor ROI in general. I have an 8TB SSD on my machine... and only 128GB of free space. And this isn't my only hobby! My main special interest is electronics.

[@SeanGoresht]

As someone who "owns" hundreds of these libraries, I definitely agree that they all sound very similar these days. Furthermore, I only rely on 1-3 libraries as you suggest. I often go as far as to render out individual samples and add them into compositions via REAPER's Project Media FX Bay.

[@sunnibird]

Which 3?

[@ToreGThomassen]

I agree with you, it seems like they all try to grab your attention with a new «best ever made , 10 years to make this fantastic library» every month. I own more than a few, but my main library is CSS. I think in overall that native instruments produce some of the most intersting libraries, i know that they collab with a lot of developers, but anyway😊

[@Fakery]

AI sitting in the corner, staring intently, smile widening into a maniacal shape

[@mehditayshun5595]

Who knew Charles Manson was an expert on modern music technology ?? 😮

[@RogerioPefi]

I believe that the main resource that these companies should be looking for is a way to have these libraries with the same or even better competence, but, mainly, occupying much less space in our SSDs and consuming less RAM and processing power. That would be a huge advance. Physical Modeling as it has a gigantic potential, and SWAM has demonstrated this. Nowadays these libraries are gigantic, they require a huge heap of memory and processing, making it impossible for independent composers to assemble their mockups in order to compete with the big ones in the market.

[@hyruleorchestra4339]

For string sections the best recommendation I can give is: learn to play the violin!!! It will make your tracks waaayyy better! I started 3 years ago and now I'm slowly getting to the point where I can record parts and layer them over my VSTs. And boy it makes a hell of a difference. Even if you're not the greatest player it sounds so much better and more realistic- especially for all shorter articulations and/or sections where you need to switch the articulation a lot. Before I started I often didn't even realize how bad those midi strings can sound when you're not completely sure what you're doing- now I hear it.

[@BrianRivlin]

Yup!! Totally agree. I don’t really play any strings myself, but I do have a violin that I can get passable lines from and layered with good libraries it makes a HUGE difference.

[@krazykalle4518]

I'm just a hobby musician and as long as that's the case, I would never spend so much money for those libraries. Not because I think they don't deserve it or the product isn't worth that, but I just can't invest so much if I'm not even sure I'll use it that much. So for me personally, the EW subscription is an amazing alternative! I'm still thinking about getting very niche libraries, like Orchestral Tools Grimm or insanitysamples Haunted Strings 2

[@BrianRivlin]

You raise a good point. These libraries are tools. And the best time to invest in a tool is when it makes sense to buy it. Not when you want a shiny new toy. (Although I am very guilty of the latter 😂).

[@Lamberilio]

Man, especially for someone that is beginning in this world, the idea of trying out a library is the best! Like, for someone starting, spending 300, 400, 500€ into a library + Kontakt is a big no no. Thank god for free libraries

[@frallorfrallor3410]

Music making is extremly expencive and stressful😂

[@BrianRivlin]

lol!! Where did we go wrong?!?

[@LG-bi1sr]

I think there's a difference between buying libraries to cover a need and buying just for excitement. If you're honest with yourself and do the proper research, you won't make bad purchases. Those mistakes are what make this expensive. The fact that there haven't been bigger improvements has a positive. It means you can buy a quality library and be competitive without having to be on the lookout every two years.