The BIGGEST Controversy in Reptiles Is a Non Issue! I'm FINALLY Speaking Out on Spider Ball Pythons!

Why do we freakout over the spider ball python gene so much? It's not really a problem right? or is it? What about Enigma Leopard Geckos and Jaguar carpet pythons or other neurological disorders in reptile or animals in general? Here's my way too late hot take!
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[@WickensWickedReptiles]

what's your opinion on Spider Ball Pythons?

[@pythonosaur]

Some combos are just amazing! Ok to breed a strong female imo, but also I wouldnt outright breed a male to x amount of girls either..

[@walkingwolf8072]

I don't have one, an opinion, or a SBP. BUT, I am also not interested in morphs. I did buy a pastel BP, but I got a better price than a normal, and pastels are found in the wild. The other four snakes I have are all normal.

[@Aryan-om5iu]

Some of my friends have had spider ball pythons and they get respiratory infection very easily and it looks like they have a very weak immunity too. My most of the friends have got rid of their spider balls just because of this reason

[@Aryan-om5iu]

@PsyBlob spider balls only have neurological disorder and low immunity because they are highly inbreed, unethical breeders were greedy for money to produce super spiders and those motherfuckers have ruined the gene

[@GarysTandAExotics]

I just whole heartedly feel that the animals quality of life is the most important thing we as keepers can give them. If a snake has a wobble and can live a happy life wobble on bro. But if it needs a special targeting system in order to be able to eat I would try and go a different route with thinking about passing the gene on.

[@shannons8394]

Sadly, we have no idea how the snakes are actually affected by wobble. But from a human standpoint, I would hate to go through life with vertigo. There are so many beautiful morphs to choose from, there is no reason to continue breeding the spider morph. Even if the snakes are thriving, we still don't know what they are going through internally.

[@spaceturtleart5966]

I suffer from migraines and just once I had a vertigo migraine-- no headache but I was unable to stand up or move without intense vertigo and nausea. It was a miserable experience. I can't imagine having essentially permanent vertigo, especially as an animal that can't really understand what's happening. If we know this morph causes neurological issues like this, there's no good reason to breed them. Especially when there are other patterns without issues that look very similar.

[@amyenglish4856]

I personally can't get my head around when we know these issues can occur, for any of these morphs and species why we continue to breed them. I don't agree with the continuation of it because I can't see the point in even having the possibility of them having a pretty poor life.

[@WickensWickedReptiles]

and this is why I don't breed mine

[@amyenglish4856]

@@WickensWickedReptiles and my hat goes off to you for it, I wish more people or breeders had the same attitude.

[@ConfidentCritters]

Especially when there are sooooo many ball python morphs that are stunning so why breed the ones that have problems when you can still have a gorgeous animal without that.

[@tabethaschneider3379]

Amy, I understand your argument. It's literally one I see daily in my profession. I work in animal medicine. Let me throw you a curveball and one answer. Why do we breed Eng. Bulldogs that can't breed or deliver without medical intervention? Sphynx cats with congenital heart issues? Rarer coat colors that often go hand in hand with undersireable higher incidentence of disease or condition. Aka white terriers, shepherds or collies that are deaf and allergic to life. You can pick a species, find a breed, and a coat color aka morph. I can probably find you a condition. Why do we as a society continue to allow the production of them? Because people. They want a desired trait that looks cool. Because breeders want money and honestly, they often love ❤️ seeing a beautiful snake too. There is a lot of pride in having cultivated the genetic variation that just is awesome. My personal belief is if you are breeding and find that a pairing or particular morph that is throwing even the occasional issue. Whether it be a congenital heart murmur, neurologic syndrome or other such anomalies that can or will be a detriment for the life and well being of the pet being brought into this world, STOP BREEDING ✋️ 🛑 that pair. Stop breeding that female or male. Recommend not breeding of progeny. As a buyer, support rescue. If you MUST buy, at least do not continue to breed known problematic lines. I would love to see a national or international breeding association that breeders for reptiles, breed specific and even morph specific, could add and certify their lines are free of genetic markers and (dam/sire equivalent) are actively free of xyz syndromes. That would be cool. Get scientists on this. OFA for reptiles. As a breeder, how cool would that be to not guess, but KNOW your keepers and hold backs ARE the healthiest you can make them, and the babies will be to.

[@ConfutoDespartus]

I agree, but Adam made a good point here. We cant learn more about the morph, and if the wobble can be removed or not, unless people breed them and experiment. We need to learn more, and attacking any one who even talks about owning one is just going to make people scared to do the studies we need. I dont agree with any sort of wide scale breeding of them currently, but I think just blanket saying it shouldnt be done period isnt a helpful stance to take. From what I've seen, for the most part, breeders seem to be being responsible, and those that arent, are irresponsible in more ways then simply "breeds spider ball pythons" Its a very complicated and nuanced topic, something that the majority of people dont bother engaging with. Most people look for 'thing good' or 'thing bad' and react with praise or condemnation according to that binary choice, when both options are going to do more harm then good. Im rambling at this point and dont know where Im going with this, sorry XD

[@craigsi16]

My main reason for being so against breeding spiders is this: Regardless how the babies turn out, if your have the choice between breeding a known healthy breed and a spider, why would you ever choose the spider? Just breed other healthier morphs instead. There's no real benefit to breeding spiders over other breeds, so there's no real reason to risk the neurology issues. I just don't see any pros to doing so.

[@WickensWickedReptiles]

I appreciate your take

[@sirenamares1390]

This is my take too about any gene that carries a health disadvantage that may affect the animal's ability to thrive. I do wish our focus in the reptile hobby, in general, would also be on bringing this same awareness to other unhealthy morphs. Especially for species that oversaturate the market. For example, leopard geckos are one of the most overrepresented reptiles in stores, shelters, and rescues, and people are still breeding leopard geckos with enigma morph. The enigma syndrome makes spider gene look like just a bobblehead toy in comparison. But we still hear more often about spider gene than enigma.

[@teijaflink2226]

It makes me so sad to see enigma leopard geckos, they can be pretty severey affected, I'm disgusted at people contnying to breed them and specially as the market is oversaturated. There is a problem with bearded dragons too who have started to get a shorter life span because of inbreeding. I really wish reptile breeders on youtube talked about health and longetivity (most want their pets to live healthy as long as possible) and how to breed considering health, all I ever heard most of them talk about is about their looks, it's a living, breathing animal, not a flower. I think they could have influence in the reptile community.

[@lindarock1072]

I agree on appreciation however my response as devils advocate wud be as long as ur specific animal isn't showing sings of the ailment then species preservation

[@lindarock1072]

Cancer is absolutely horrible and can be hereditary kinda in the fact that u are taking a chance at ur offspring eventually getting and potentially dying from said ailments However u don't see people choosing not to have kids bec they might get sick any morph of any animal has the potential of a fatal ailment

[@trinitytang3170]

My big thing about this is how a lot of breeders, at expos for example, won’t disclose something like a wobble as a health issue. And if you’re not prepared for it seeing a stressed out new snake corkscrew around it’s tank can be really freaky.

[@kevinthegrizzly5074]

You are correct. We've the corkscrewing. It breaks our heart every time we it.👊🏾🪖🦅🇺🇸

[@kellynneumann610]

I agree with this. I’m a newbie who just bought a pastel lesser spider this past weekend and the breeder did not disclose anything. Now I love him and I’m going to give him a happy home, but he should not have hidden it to an obvious newbie, who just discovered the issue while watching him corkscrew around his tank last night.

[@teijaflink2226]

I have thought the spider doesn't seem to be that big of an issue, I have only seen Breeders who are for breeding them only show a small wobble. I really didn't think that some are corkscrewing around, that definitely is not okay and animal cruelty, clearly a snake corkscrewing around must be suffering (at least in those moments). I really hope your snake doesn't do it often and that there is a way to prevent it. Makes me really angry though, that breeder 100% scammed you because of your inexperience, he should not have been selling snakes that as totally fine, the snake should have been adoption or at least sold cheaper. It's breeders like this that makes it impossible to trust the reptile community and why there need to be better rules to protect animals and the environment (like from breeders relising unvanted animals as example), it's unfortunate that they make things harder for good breeders too

[@greenginger6668]

I have read the few actual studies we have about this issue, and while I believe they could use a lot of improvement (sample sizes predominantly) I also think they show enough evidence to prevent me from supporting the breeding of these animals, at least until we know more. I really wish I could link things in KZbin comments lol. We do know that the super spider is lethal, which in my opinion indicates a pretty big issue as well. We also have morphs like pinstripe and bamboo that create similar patterns to the spider without the issues. I don’t think every spider should be culled, but I do think it is our responsibility to prevent further possible suffering. I am looking into obtaining a rescue spider in the near future for the exact reasons you gave as well. I’m not going to go around telling people what to do but I can and do refuse to buy an animal from a breeder that breeds this gene, especially when there are so many similar options out there.

[@lindsyfish6704]

The crappy thing is we need more spiders bred to get more data to figure out what's going on with the wobble. And that's even if a scientist will touch this.

[@greenginger6668]

@@lindsyfish6704 we have plenty of spiders currently, we don’t necessarily need to breed more to study the possible abnormalities and the correlation in the gene. The part about actually getting the research is very true though, the funding isn’t there because this doesn’t benefit humans as a whole in the slightest. It’s a very first world issue and is on the back burner of the back burner. There are actual, peer reviewed research papers on this topic but they are very clearly lacking in funding to allow them to effectively collect data. The best one I read, which isn’t saying too much, suggests that the gene causes a deformity in the inner ear which then disrupts the animals ability to properly sense gravity. Breeders and general keepers would also need to be willing to cooperate with researchers which is also incredibly unlikely, especially if breeders are still making money off of these animals. For the time being, until there is more research, I think it is in our animals and hobby’s best interest to avoid the gene in favor of similar looking genes since people think the looks are so important.

[@Mike-bh9vs]

I agree 100%. I vote with my $ and won't buy from anyone who does breed them. Everyone else can do what they want. I think the other 2000 morphs are enough to work with we can easily put the animals first on this 1 morph

[@TheCharleseye]

​@@lindsyfish6704 Nah, some mysteries don't need solving. We know that Spiders likely would have died out naturally, if left in the wild (super Sipder is deadly and head wobble screws up hunting/striking). That's all we really need to know. Sometimes evolution creates genetic abnormalities that harm the animal. Those traits are most often bred out through natural selection. We screwed that up. We should correct the mistake by discontinuing breeding and allowing the Spiders that already exist to live out the rest of their lives as pets.

[@extremewolfmanfd7020]

It's a hard call to make, but until the scientific community can find more concrete evidence one way or the other I believe it's best to avoid breeding them for personal collections.

[@WickensWickedReptiles]

Great point

[@WickedWildlife]

I can’t speak for spider ball pythons but we do have Jaguar Carpets here My issue with them is not the wobble itself so much as what it might represent, a point at which aesthetics is more important to us then quality of life While this issue might not be as bad as it’s made out to be, if a prettier morph was 10% worse would that be ok? What about twice as bad?

[@WickensWickedReptiles]

very well said my friend

[@basilstorm9461]

To anyone watching this, before you pick one side or the other, watch some footage GoHerping has of surrendered spider ball pythons. You shouldn’t decide before seeing some of the worse cases. And if you’re planning to buy one, you have to be prepared for the worst case scenario.

[@jennytillery6408]

If you do watch that video, please watch Kevin's (NERD) video of a response to that.

[@okayomakaia]

Exactly, Adams trippin and I’m prob never gonna trust his opinion ever again going forward

[@leche2905]

@@okayomakaia Same with me , this is wild

[@WickensWickedReptiles]

"He has a take I don't agree with about one thing in 4.5 years, now everything he says is sus" is the most 2023 thing I've read today.

[@basilstorm9461]

@@WickensWickedReptiles I can't tell if this is addressed to me or not but I promise that's not what I meant! Just that this is a complex topic and people need to see various examples of snakes with the spider gene before they decide one way or another

[@socksshepperson6685]

I own a severely effected spider ball python who cannot strike her own food and is unable to hold onto perches correctly and essentially can't climb. If someone's going to try and tell me that's not reduced quality of life then they're insane. I don't think they should all be culled, but I absolutely do not think people should ever breed them. There's no reason for it as there's similar morphs (enchi, clown, etc) that do not have the wobble or corkscrewing. There's sometimes my spider will corkscrew so bad she falls back and smacks her head on the side of her enclosure. This is NOT normal and clearly could be painful. I just cannot understand why breeders would continue to breed them when they're guaranteed to have at least a slight wobble and at worst be unable to move properly and needs to be euthanized. I think it's fine to own them as long as you've gotten them second hand and are not giving money for the spider. In addition to this, about 99% of breeders will NOT disclose the fact that these morphs have a wobble or corkscrew unless you ask about it and even then they try and play it off like it's no big deal. This is why I have a spider, I was sold my spider as a first time reptile keeper, had never kept one in my life, and she had an extreme corkscrew/wobble. It was terrifying the first time I saw it and immediately took her to the vet thinking it was a seizure only to be told "it's just how this morph is, there's nothing we can do to help it." If people were told this was an issue I'm almost certain they'd fall out of popularity.

[@ii8283]

Should we abort all babies with autism because of the most extreme and debilitating cases of it?

[@aaronkingston3444]

Ball pythons are terrestrial snakes, they don't climb perches. The fact you don't know that, indicates to me that you don't have a clue about keeping ball pythons. Your poor spider is probably so stressed out by you that it is corkscrewing, which it obviously wasn't doing when you bought it. I really think snake protection services need to visit you.

[@doriasaurus]

The ethical problem is: Even if it doesn't always happen, it's always Spiders. I adopted an enimga leo from a breeder at a show for no charge to keep her from being bred. He leaned in close over the table and disclosed to me at a whisper the issues that "could" happen only after I said I would take her. He said he hadn't seen any issues and didn't expect it. The whole thing felt shady, as if he didn't want the other vendors or customers to know. When she started showing strong symptoms a few weeks later, he offered to replace her which just felt a little strange to me. This is a living animal, my responsiblity. "No, I don't want to replace her, I just want you to be aware." If the breeder knows their line is having serious neurological issues that affect the quality of life of the animal, it should be a line that is not continued. Period. That would be the case with other issues, like an animal that produces young with consistant kinks, you would stop breeding that animal for ethical reasons. It all comes down to vanity. We want brighter, prettier animals with neat designs and at the end of the day - we shouldn't sacrifice an animal's health for any reason, least of all for a pretty pattern. That applies to all animals really. An albino isn't going to struggle in captivity, but a snake with bad wobble would. My little gecko has to be tong fed daily because she cannot catch anything on her own, always leaning right, hitting her head into the ground and turning in circles when she gets excited about food time. It's just so sad to think more are being produced and how we cannot undo much of the progress since enigma was pushed into so many gecko lines before we understood it. Caring for and witnessing a neurologically compromised animal breaks my heart to pieces. Seeing the suffering every day in person really made up my mind early. No one else's argument could change it after holding a struggling spider ball, watching it flip upside down over and over - be unable to catch food without hurting itself. Anyone who breeds and sees this happen, but doesn't have the empathy to stop "because it just looks so darn cool" isn't someone whose opinion matters to me. This might be different if we didn't know what morph was causing it, but we do. Healthy animals first. Always.

[@WolfieDawn]

Thank you. I can't believe how many of these comments are like "but it is so pretty and MY spider ball python only kinda struggles to be a normal snake!" Like, c'mon. Seeing enigmas get stressed out about shedding or ovulation or just eating - some of them even having seizures more than made up my mind about neurological issues in reptiles. Spiders, enigmas, and white & yellow reptiles and other genes like these shouldn't be bred for the health of the animal.

[@lindarock1072]

I have to say I don't breed snakes currently yet And wouldn't just to be safe if it showed the signs of said issues for the same reasons I no longer breed my 1 male beardie that has a genetic kink so I deff can see your point but if the animal doesn't have a kink I would breed it ur not going to say oh I know it could potentially have a kink so I won't breed it that makes no sense so while I agree whole heartedly if the animals expressing the neurological issue I wouldn't take the chance.. why would u not breed the ones NOT expressing the ailment it would be the same as never breeding any of the offspring of a cluth bec 1 out of 30 had a kink ? Instead what most do is not breed the one with the visual expression of the ailment thatz just my 2 cents lol but opinions are like assholez we all have one and some stink

[@hazelgrunts]

I mostly agree with you, although personally I think that spiders shouldn’t be bred at all unless the issues are somehow bred out. I think I can say that as a reptile keeper with neurological “issues” myself. We have so many non problematic ball python morphs out there, why should we breed the couple that negatively affect the animal? Actually, I think that ball pythons are extremely overbred in general but that’s besides the point (Future video?)

[@WickensWickedReptiles]

great idea!

[@humanname99]

you can't breed the wobble out of the spider. the pattern comes from an issue in development- those cells that pigment a spider in this pattern form at the same time as the "balance" center of the brain. the spider gene affects this development in a way that causes this wobble. this is very oversimplified but essentially every spider has a wobble and the severity is pretty random. the wobble comes directly from the pattern.

[@alyssastickels1324]

@@humanname99do you remember where you got this info? I’d love to read more about it

[@humanname99]

@@alyssastickels1324 I believe this is the specific study: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9377635/

[@WallieTheRed]

Totally agree. Fantastic comment

[@thatonepossum5766]

While I don’t hate people for breeding spiders, I definitely do think it’s a practice that should stop. Sure _most_ spiders are fine, but a higher percentage of spiders are unhealthy (corkscrewing, biting themselves, etc) than other ball python morphs. While we might be able to breed out the wobble over time, I don’t see the end goal of “pretty snake” to be worth causing the unnecessary numbers of snakes that would have low quality of life.

[@triplesixserpents666]

Where did u find the research of the percentages jw

[@thatonepossum5766]

@@triplesixserpents666 oh I wasn’t intending to site any actual scientific research/study. Sorry it came off that way. I was just referring to that fact that we know more spiders have these issues than (most) other morphs. If we didn’t know that, there’d be no point to the video. :) (I don’t know what “jw” means)

[@triplesixserpents666]

@@thatonepossum5766 means just wondering. I have snakes in my collection that if u breed two spiders together it's bad news or certain Gene's with spider is bad the same with champagne or countless others def gotta know what not to pair with snakes that could potentially have a wobble I and the team at Triple6Serpents strive to get the best healthiest snakes to their forever home..we do breed spider and I as of now have never had anything like that not trying to come off as a ass I'm not lol. Its just a touchy subject bc u can take those Gene's and mix it with other strong Gene's and make some beautiful healthy snakes that no one wants bc of the "spider stigma"

[@levi9486]

The reason for breeding it out is besides it being made explicitly illegal by a government, people will continue to breed spider ball pythons irregardless of consequences to the animal. It's better for a few conscientious breeders to breed out the wobble on purpose in order to sure up the trait for future generations.

[@triplesixserpents666]

@@levi9486 that is a great way to say it

[@Mojohjohjoh]

I have a lot of health issues that I struggle with everyday both physical and neurological and for this reason I decided that I never want to pass on my genetics when I was still in high school. There is no guarantee that potential kids would have my conditions but it's not a chance I'm willing to take considering both of my siblings, mum, uncle, cousins and grandmother have at least one of mu conditions and I was lucky enough to hit the unlucky jackpot. I feel like spiders are the same and it's not worth the risk of suffering.

[@teijaflink2226]

Right I don't think it's worth the risk either, even if they may not suffer much from it it's just not worth the risk, there are so many other cool morphs to breed. Clearly it's a neuroligical issue and a huge sign of bad genetics, it may affect the snake on orher ways too. So dissapointed with people promoting them when it's so unnessesary.

[@FreedomAnderson]

I’m in a similar situation.

[@NingyoHimeDoll]

Y'all just keep reinventing eugenics somehow

[@adorky.]

I don’t agree with breeding them, but I do wish it was disclosed more. When I was first researching for snakes a Spider morph was in my picks and I saw nothing about the wobble. I found out later on and was set on never getting one. However we accidentally got one a few years later and the wobble/corkscrew issues we noticed early on and was stressed about why he was doing it. Later found out Bumblebee was the combination of Spider and Pastel. It was funny to begin with him messing up striking before we realised what was going on, it just became sad when it would take him 5, 10, strikes to get it even when it was right in front of him. He’d manage to turn around, if he lifts up too far he falls over, twists or flips. He’s bitten himself once. Thankfully his striking is improving but he still has some bad days.

[@fuzzymelon1261]

neurological disorders in reptiles are not for beginners. you need more experience and knowledge of the specific disorders. I would not be able to care for one bc they require more assistance. they really just need a more elaborate care routine and a vet in handy. especially enigma geckos. the poor things get easily overstimulated and can have seizures. Jessica's Animal Friends has a better knowledge of leopard geckos with neuro issues than I do (I have only owned a pretty dumb normal), so im not experienced.

[@WickensWickedReptiles]

great thought

[@DRskeleton654]

At the end of the day, the one that will live with the neurological issue is the animal, not us. If people are comfortable having the knowledge that their animal can go wobbly at any time or develop even worse condition, thats their choice but it does shows that they prioritise the cosmetic of the animal and not their health

[@ibetas5903]

New research suggests spider gene has a deformity in the ear canal of the skull causing the wobble, which means it can be bred out or genetically modified out but both those would be a long expensive journey

[@WickensWickedReptiles]

very interesting!

[@jacquelinetownsend2819]

A lot of videos discussing that research are misunderstanding what the paper said - the ear deformity is likely a consequence of the Same developmental gene mutation that results in the pattern alteration, meaning it CANNOT be bred out. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9377635/

[@brynnellie]

I have a spider ball python that was adopted through Petco (adopted because they could not get her to eat, not bought!) that eats fairly well, but gets very frustrated and won’t eat sometimes when she misses food due to her wobble. It’s fairly bad, but she gets by. She can’t be handled as it exacerbates her corkscrewing. But all in all, she is okay. I still feel that they should not be bred as while a lot of them are fine - a lot of them are not. It’s like any genetic issue in animals, why breed something we know has a higher percentage of having neurological issues? Just because they’re pretty?

[@liss1356]

Personally, I don't think they should be bred I don't think it's worth it. They are very beautiful, but that beauty also has a high price if it affects their quality of life. Because as keepers, that's what we should want; for our reptiles to have the best lives possible. I just don't see how that's going to work with risks of a snake corkscrewing, biting itself, having trouble eating, etc. It's why Lilly White crested geckos aren't bred together. It's a lethal gene.

[@sarnett7303]

This also kind of reminds me of the selective breeding of dogs with short faces. They almost always have breathing problems and end up having other medical issues because of it, but people still breed them even with that knowledge

[@WickensWickedReptiles]

brachycephalic dogs are usually a walking health issue

[@ashes5940]

Not to mention French and English bulldogs can’t give birth naturally and half of the time they have to be artificially inseminated because their body structure doesn’t allow for natural breeding. So those dogs definitely shouldn’t exist buut people want the around.

[@ingeniouspixie]

Totally agree, and it's disgusting.

[@Hyuzuchihuya]

​@@ashes5940funny enough my French bulldog was naturally mated, and naturally gave birth to 7 healthy pups (not to sound concieted). It's more so that people aren't making sure that health checks are done or deciding to breed a big male with a tiny female that you find the mother and pups being severely at risk sadly :(

[@ashes5940]

@@Hyuzuchihuya i don’t doubt that there are natural instances where people properly breed them but most backyard breeders don’t care and breed for color not proper form. Glad your dog isn’t a mutant lol.

[@raeven1937]

Im from europe and here they are working on laws to prohibit breeding any animal that can or will have medical issues due to their appearance. Bulldogs who have an operation scheduled from the moment they are born to make them able to breathe properly etc. I think its good.

[@WolfieDawn]

Europe is truly miles ahead of the USA

[@Adotworm]

What country? Id love to look into this, living in Europe myself.

[@sarnett7303]

I had a "bumble bee" spider ball years ago, named Spaz, and he was one of my favorite buddies. He never exhibited any signs of wobble, and at the time, I had never heard of a wobble. As a pet, they usually do pretty well (in my experience) I don't personally think spiders should be bred anymore, especially when we have so many other morphs that don't seem to have medical/neurological problems (like Adam said). BUT, I'm also of the opinion that ball pythons in general are overproduced anyway. All in all, it really does come down to personal opinion. You should always keep an open mind as the information we have access to changes and grows (maybe in the future we CAN breed the wobble out of them, who knows)

[@WickensWickedReptiles]

cool take

[@QWERTYOP80]

Why would you call anything that?

[@WickensWickedReptiles]

@@QWERTYOP80 what…

[@realchiknuggets]

@@WickensWickedReptiles he’s talking about OP naming the animal spaz

[@WickensWickedReptiles]

@@realchiknuggets ohhhhh this hyper sensitive language stuff/ inability to distinguish between regional differences in language.

[@simpled5755]

I seen a study that said it’s not even a neurological issue that it’s a malformation in their ear canal. No actual importance to this statement, I’m just sharing

[@WickensWickedReptiles]

very interesting

[@larimatolaganon4946]

I don't agree with the breeding of any traits that cause discomfort for the animal, and that includes way too many dog and cat species. It's nice to see that, at least in Europe, they are getting away from cropping and docking dogs just for apparencies. That doesn't mean I am going to attack someone for owning an animal, in most cases they tend to be rescues anyhow, but I do wish people would stop buying, breeding, and supporting animals that have genetic issues.

[@ii8283]

I will continue to buy Spiders from Kevin. Cry me a river.

[@lindsyfish6704]

To paraphrase Clint Laidlaw, a terrier is a terrible wolf, but a fantastic dog. And he's an actual expert with a lot of formal education in related fields. My opinion? We're currently domesticating ball pythons. Historically we've mostly domesticated mammals, birds, and fish because they suited our needs and abilities. Now we're getting into reptiles because our needs and abilities have changed. If we breed animals ethics are always going to be a concern. When we try to domesticate animals ethics are also going to be a concern, but it's slightly more flexible because you need to figure out how to get the characteristics you're looking for. And sometimes that means you accept things you'd rather not. There's also always going to be offspring that cross the line and need to be culled. This happens in all breeding, not just experimental breeding. It's part of the risks of breeding. When the Soviets did an experiment to see if foxes can be domesticated they noticed that the foxes' ears got progressively floppier in each generation. They bred for temperament, not aesthetics, and this aesthetic change came along with it. Thankfully, this change was benign, but not all of them are. This next one isn't. I see people saying that two copies of the spider gene being lethal is enough of a reason to not breed them. Except this happens in other domesticated species too and breeding them is universally considered to be an acceptable practice. I even have one of these animals as a companion: he's a dwarf breed rabbit. Dwarf rabbit litters are smaller than standard and giant breed litters because there's something about the dwarf gene in rabbits that causes higher numbers of miscarriages. This means it's a lethal gene. Just like the spider gene in ball pythons. As an aside, dwarf rabbits have higher rates of blocked tear ducts than standards and giants because of their face shape, but they also live longer than either of them. High rates of miscarriage in and of itself probably isn't a good reason to stop breeding for the characteristic because all it tells you is to expect smaller numbers of offspring. Or, as in the case of the spider morph, which animals it's best to not pair with each other. It says nothing else. Having multiple copies of specific genes being detrimental where single copies are seen as beneficial is common, even in us humans. Look up why sickle-cell anaemia wasn't patched by evolution. The short answer is because one copy of the gene is protective against getting severely sick from malaria. It takes two copies for a person to develop the disease, but one copy works well enough against malaria that it stays in the gene pool. Given all this I can't say whether or not breeding spider morph balls is okay. The only animal I've ever bred intentionally for physical characteristics was fruit flies, and that was for an assignment in high school biology class. So I need to go to actual experts. I've heard reputable, ethical breeders talk about how their spider balls don't produce offspring that have quality of life issues at all. Or even wobble. And I've seen some snakelets that should have been culled because they can't keep themselves upright or eat properly and weren't. That's a really big range! The reputable breeders who choose not to breed them seem to do it partially for optics but mostly because they don't want the risk of producing offspring they can't sell. This whole situation isn't helped by the fact that 24 years isn't a long time when it comes to sorting out a complex problem like this. We need more research into it to figure out what's going on so the community can develop best practices.

[@dilboo]

No offense, but your entire argument is invalid based on the fact that you don't know what "domestication" means

[@DragonFae16]

I find it ironic that people get up in arms about breeding and keeping spider ball pythons, but nobody says anything about certain breeds of dogs. Pugs, French bulldogs, British bulldogs, and so many other dog breeds can have defects that result in them having short lives full of suffering. Cavalier King Charles spaniels can have a condition where their brain is too big for their skulls, which always leads to seizures and neurological issues. Breeding any animal just for its looks will always lead to issues for the animal.

[@WickensWickedReptiles]

interesting to think about

[@josephhoffman2992]

Lots of people talk about how bad some dog breeds are lmao

[@kirillukin2222]

Yeah jusr dont breed tgese dogs too

[@lindsayschmidt2177]

“Nobody talks about it”? Really? I see discussions nearly every day about not breeding those animals

[@DragonFae16]

@@lindsayschmidt2177 The bulldog is the most popular dog breed in the world and the French bulldog is number 7. If there are people talking about not breeding them, they aren't doing it very loudly.

[@GoblinQueenReptiles]

Adam, I respect you a lot as a keeper and content creator, but I respectfully disagree. I think that the argument that by buying one you’re keeping somebody from reading them is a bit of a silly argument. It’s akin to saying that because they bought a reptile from a pet store, they “rescued” it. It still lines the pockets of the people that produced it. Again - love your content, I just very heavily disagree. I think by buying any spider you are supporting and saying that there is a market demand for them.

[@Jobin14]

I wouldn’t breed them, and I am against them but I will always respect an educational conversation (note how I said not an argument haha). We have gotten away from this in this community and your video is a great representation on how it should go. We should listen to both sides, look at the research and not make the one side a villain because of it. Just because I’m a vegetarian doesn’t make anyone who isn’t any less. I did it for my ethical beliefs and that’s enough for me. I’ll say why I did it, why you should consider it (if asked) and that’s it! This will make r/ballpython go right mad but I’ll grab my popcorn.

[@ravenswolf]

I saw a report that one of the issues might be because they have a deformed inner ear that causes the head wobble.

[@WickensWickedReptiles]

this is really interesting

[@Ryan_Maineaquaria]

Well said. What do you think about the possibility of it being an inner ear deformation that causes the wobble? I recently saw something that was suggesting that possibility.

[@Geckowhisper]

We have one spider we took in about 12 years ago. Was fine until about a year ago and now wobbles so bad you can't even hold him. Will never buy a morph with the spider gene based on personal experience.

[@WickensWickedReptiles]

interesting, I've never heard of this happening before

[@Geckowhisper]

@Wickens Wicked Reptiles we never had either and always thought if the snake was good it would always be good. But ours has developed over time. I don't know how old he was when we took him in as he as already adult size and it was a rescue/adondoned situation.

[@Rileys-Reptiles]

Spider is actually incomplete dominant. The super form is a dead white snake that cannot survive.

[@BreeDragoness]

Honestly this is pretty much my stance. I am going into biology as a major, so that might change, but right now I don't think I know well enough how it works to firmly say yes or no. I'm kind of iffy on it. Quite frankly, a huge part of the issue is that we can't ask the snake how it feels. We have to try and figure it out through other means. It is easiest to just stay out of it and stick to rescues, sometimes. Now pugs, we know those need help - someone please breed them to have faces.

[@WolfieDawn]

Agreed! I know there is one breeder working to give french bulldogs back their faces. It always makes me so sad to see a pug trying to play and be a dog but just getting exhausted so quickly ...

[@BreeDragoness]

@@WolfieDawn I've also heard of a breeder doing the same thing for Persian cats, calling them "doll-faced Persians" or something. I do appreciate that they're out there.

[@Geckoyogaia]

Adam one of the main reasons l like your channel, is the fact you keep naturalistic enclosures of adequate size. Again natural enclosures with natural enrichment. Not a plastic tub with paper towels any creature on Earth would never encounter in the wild. Thanks for not breeding Spider ball pythons or any other morph with proven problems. Your a good man Charlie Brown would even say so bro. Keep doing what your doing cause everyone can see your doing it the right way.

[@jimtheyid]

I have a spied and bumblebee ,both with very low wobbles,and bought solely as pets. I wouldn't breed these because deliberately something that isn't quite right is inhumane

[@WickensWickedReptiles]

very cool

[@ManaDeTalent]

The question should never be "why not to breed them?", but "why breed them in the first place?" and that answer is looks, and I struggle to find a lamer reason for something to exist. There are Absolutely Gorgeous snakes out there, the spiders are actually quite meh. The risks are never worth it, doing it for the esthetics is the silliest argument, not to mention a selfish one.

[@alyssafigliano3994]

The way I see it is kind of like the issues with some breeds of purebred dogs. The breed standard for dogs like pugs and English bulldogs is a very short muzzle, so short it's hard to breath. The "cute" wheezing sounds they make is them struggling to breath. Do I believe these dogs should be bred in the way they are now? Not particularly. Do I believe that they should be culled? Absolutely not! The animal isn't at fault for the way it was bred. Adopting a dog like that is completely different than buying it from a breeder, and as long as the new owner is open to dealing with any possible health problems I don't see an issue. Ball pythons with the spider gene, even those with a significant (though non-debilitating) wobble, don't deserve to die on principle; they deserve the best care possible, same as any other animal. Blame the breeder, not the animal.

[@billthorpe6227]

Nice job! This is probably the best approach I have seen on the subject

[@marjoleinvnoort6961]

The first spider came from the wild, so we didn’t create the morph.I have a spider she hasn’t got the wobble. My woma does have a wobble but not extreme. I also had a clown showing signs of a little wobble.

[@annschuchmann187]

Thank you! I was scrolling through the comments to see if anyone would mention the spider gene is a natural occurring morph. 😂

[@alexbrannon]

I think the most important question is when you can selectively breed to avoid neurological issues, why wouldn't you? We should be breeding for the healthiest specimens possible. Any snake could be born with a defect, however, if a specific morph has a record of neurological issues, that morph could and should be avoided. I'm not saying cull the existing spiders, I also wouldn't bash anyone for owning a spider, especially if they were rescues - but responsibly they shouldn't be bred.

[@FroggySpace]

Hey bro u really inspired me to become a reptile lover and always watch your new vids.

[@WickensWickedReptiles]

Keep it up!

[@CreativeReptiles]

Correct me if im wrong but i thought the 1st spider was found in the wild. Regardless, i love mine & his wobble is so minimal. He strikes and catches his prey better than all my other snakes

[@WickensWickedReptiles]

that's right!

[@guy8646]

Saying you can’t challenge someone because they’ve been around a long time or is high profile or does good things most of the time is not a great frame of mind. We all have our platforms and should call out problematic practices when we see them. Have some conviction to clearly stand for something.

[@hoellenotter]

I couldn’t agree more.

[@lavatrout]

Yeah, I think this mostly concerns responsible breeding more than anything. A responsible breeder will do everything in their power to minimize health defects in whatever animal they produce (dogs, cats, snakes, birds, fish, etc). This can range from taking good care of the parents to ensuring that harmful genes are not passed down. There is also this idea of cost vs benefit. For instance, german shepherds are smart, are loyal, and make excellent working dogs. The downside is that they can suffer from a range of medical problems such as muscular skeletal defects and aggression. A responsible breeder should only breed healthy german shepherds with the goal that the puppies will become working dogs. Otherwise, for the majority of households, a mut is typically a better option than a pure breed. So, when it comes to spider ball pythons, we have to ask ourselves if the benefit of producing a spider is worth the potential health cost. Answers may vary between reptile keepers, but I know for myself that it is simply not worth the risk. I keep animals as pets, not for shows or scientific research or breeding. To me, the best ball python is one that will live long and act friendly. Of course, this is an extremely subjective answer, and I'm interested to know if there is anyone who does see the benefit to spiders.

[@andycristea6784]

I know some snakes can get wobble of vitamin deficency. My spider's wobble is only present when he gets exited when its feeding time. I did see his wobble get better giving some vitamins every few months or so

[@lputaa]

Hello Adam I really appreciate you Ma'an I'm from Africa Kenya and never seen a ball python 🤣💔...I really love all these reptiles already except Chameleon...your channel is so educating and relaxing.🙏🏿🖤

[@WickensWickedReptiles]

thanks bro!

[@krk_457]

At 9:30 in the video, you directly contradict your 1st statement in your Toxic Myths video...

[@WolfieDawn]

Glad I'm not the only one to see this

[@janellekrivoruk2493]

What about lemon frost Leopard geckos I think i heard that they are like bred for having cancer or something to make their eyes white

[@lindsayschmidt2177]

I would check out Jessica’s Animal Friends channel for more info on leopard gecko neurological issues. She has a couple videos where she discusses the lemon frost morph and the problems it causes

[@humanname99]

lemon frost causes cancer. iirc it gives them too many pigment cells that are already susceptible to cancer, which makes it pretty much a guarantee. there are two wobble genes that leos have, w&y (which can be bred out of the gene itself) and enigma (which can't, as far as we know.) both are very uncommon to see in the hobby. I wish bp breeders would take notes.

[@janellekrivoruk2493]

@@lindsayschmidt2177 yeah, i saw the one about enigmas

[@aoroen]

Spider Ball Pythons are part of why I got into snake keeping because well they are SO pretty but I learned about their wobble and decided that there are sooooooo many more non problematic morphs to pick from so I went towards those instead! I couldnt justify the producing a reptile with a good chance of a neuro issue when I personally don't even like when people breed dogs/cats that are high risk for health issues (used to be an LVT so I saw a lot of rough animals that could have been prevented with responsible breeding) But instead of getting up in arms and being upset about people producing spiders I usually just choose not to engage with them and I tend to try to avoid breeders that work with the morph :) and like you said theres no issue with owning them especially from a rescue situation! the animal is already born and alive so it deserves to live out its life as comfortably as possible :)

[@tipping_scales]

I have nothing but respect for Kevin over at NERD but this is one topic he addresses that I feel like he is too close to to have an unbiased opinion on. I think with more knowledge comes more responsibility and with more science comes more ability to manipulate the world around us. Since we are responsible for the animals we breed and have the knowledge that specific morphs have specific disorders, I think it is our responsibility to breed ethically. What I think is ethical is not creating a life that has high risk of low quality. So with the spider morph, I think until we have the science to isolate what is causing the neuroligal anomaly and breed it out, we shouldn't be breeding them

[@lizardsofozz]

Adam! I've learned a lot about the spider ball python gene over the years from many sources (including yours). I appreciate the thought behind the information you provided here and in the livestream. I'm with you about them and I'm not positive that we will know truly the cause of the issue until folks who are working with the gene prove out one way or another. Will i breed them? No, but I'm not wanting to get into breeding ball pythons. Anyhow love your work, love your personality, see you in the next one!

[@SarahJSimon]

My first ever snake is a spider bp, Potato. He's derpy but I love him and he's definitely thriving after rescuing him.

[@Lillymedusa107]

Mine has really bad wobble, i have to hold her head when she eats because she corkscrews so bad

[@WickensWickedReptiles]

that's so sad to hear

[@Lillymedusa107]

@@WickensWickedReptiles it is sad but I’ll do anything for her. She ignited my passion for reptiles, I’ve rescued dozens since the pandemic started and rehomed all but 11 of them that I currently keep. I rescued her from a breeder who was clearly abusing her

[@joshuaweismantel1160]

so I'm legitimately curious as to your opinion on breeding, say, super cinnamons, there's a chance they'll have a deformity that will affect their quality of life but its not a sure thing, is it okay for other people to breed them if its okay to breed spiders? Is there a difference?

[@humanname99]

I don't think there is much of a difference. if anything, I'm more against super cinnamons because their issues (if present) would necessitate euthanasia. spiders rarely do.

[@joshuacain9845]

The first spider imported was already an adult. Spider ball pythons can survive to adulthood in the wild. Moreover, in captivity, we have no evidence outside of personal feelings to suggest that spider ball pythons are any more likely to be stressed or have a shorter lifespan than most other morphs. The ones with the worst symptoms are typically rescues that were neglected or come from unknown circumstances. There’s plenty of snakes that will typically die if neglected as a baby-like rainbow boas and green tree pythons-that nobody is against breeding. Spider ball pythons are often resilient enough to survive these conditions that many other snakes cannot. Furthermore, the vast majority of spiders show very little wobble and no signs of being any worse off than other bps when cared for properly. Ideally as breeders, we should be able to expect our snakes will not go into neglectful homes, meaning we have little reason to suspect spider/champagne/woma balls will develop a more pronounced wobble. I fully understand why someone wouldn’t want to breed or buy spider ball pythons and I think breeders should ensure buyers are aware of the potential problems they have, but I believe spiders are well within an acceptable range of general health that breeders shouldn’t be bashed and “cancelled” for.

[@ii8283]

When there's absolutely nothing to suggest most Spiders are suffering, and so many people still claim they are, what's even the point of arguing it anymore? It's clear in bad faith. They aren't interested in a debate. They want the government to intrude on our hobby, regulate it, and inevitably destroy it.

[@giam9552]

The problem with breeders is that they can be breed to have special features and colors but could have health issues and live shorter lives and lots of times the owners think it's too much to handle or don't want to pay for the expenses so they ultimately end up with a owner who doesn't have experience or care.

[@kevinthegrizzly5074]

Great video, Adam. I'm not getting on my high horse, but can you imagine the hell you would catch if you bred puppies with a neurological disorder? PETA would have a shit hemorrhage on this side of the border. I also view it as ammo for groups who want to restrict reptile keeping/breeding even further. Not judging, but we will never purchase a spider or HGW. Take care, buddy. 👍🏾🇺🇸🇨🇦

[@madhokte]

Merle coats are highly desired in a lot of breeds and come with a high price tag. Breeding a Merle to another Merle makes a higher percentage of Merle puppies ($$$) but you also risk getting double-merles, where the puppy has a copy of the gene from both parents, and double Merle dogs have a way higher likelihood of being blind, deaf, or both. There is no reason we should have double Merle if breeders were responsible, but because they want a more valuable litter, they risk it because it's financially worth it even if it is, in my opinion, unethical to produce such animals as a byproduct of breeding for specialty phenotypes.

[@evolynrayne]

​@madelinegott6749 I took on a 3 yr old double blue Merle American bulldog because I was the only volunteer the rescue knew of who could and would take on a deaf dog. Turns out she also had glass eyes and her sight faded quickly with age. So while she was beautiful and sweet as could be, she was at a significant disadvantage if it was too dark or too bright and it was heart breaking watching her get more and more sad as she got old. We made the decision to end her suffering at 11 yrs old last June.

[@knate44]

Such a complicated and nuanced topic. I think in general I'm not likely to directly support a breeder of spider ball, Jaguar carpets, or enigma geckos. I know too many folks who rescue them to know that it can go bad. That being said, I will also say that pets with disabilities need good homes too! As long as you are aware that they can have issues, and know ways to help them live low stress but engaging lives, adopting or rescuing one might still be in the cards.

[@VforVendetta6669]

Thanks for making this!!! I think it was my video suggestion 🖤🐍 p.s. Kevin rocks!!!

[@WickensWickedReptiles]

Hope you enjoyed it!

[@VforVendetta6669]

Yes, I did! You keep it honest and simple, no embellishments 🥲💯

[@jennydorrance1884]

I just imagine living life with constant vertigo and how awful I would feel all the time. I see it as an equal disability to a lizard with MBD. Like unless it's severe I'm not going to euthanize them but I'm also not going around encouraging people to have MBD animals (or in this case breed animals with a high risk of a disability) Part of being a responsible breeder imo is breeding healthy bloodlines to keep improving the hobby. If you are breeding something with a known genetic disorder I start to question if you really want what's best for the animals

[@YochevedDesigns]

Does your snake hang low, does it wobble to and fro? Can you tie it in a knot, can you tie it in a bow?

[@pippins_abode]

Personally I don't believe any cosmetic traits should be cultivated in any animal if it puts it at higher risk for health problems. That goes for short faced dogs, reptile morphs, or risky cosmetic procedures on humans as well. Why are we putting such an importance on what an animal looks like? Its a question of morals that every person in this position of breeding or influence must ask themselves. And ultimately at the end of the day, it is less morally ok to breed something with a known genetic problem than something that doesn't. Its the same attitude that keeps people from wanting normal coloration in ball pythons that has led to an abundance of neglected snakes that will live for the next 50 years. Every breeder needs to think about whether they can be responsible or make sure someone responsible is taking care of the animals they produce that will live possibly longer than them, instead of whether or not they can make a quick buck.

[@RedDogRanch13]

I can definitely see where you’re coming from and it is okay to say “hey I am not educated enough on this topic to have a real opinion” and that’s respectable.

[@beverlyjensen443]

I wouldn't breed neurologically damaged animals, but I understand one that's not horribly affected might make a fine pet. Still, I really enjoyed this video. Thanks, Adam!

[@WickensWickedReptiles]

thanks for watching!

[@lordelon9955]

When i first got into the hobby, i immediately saw my beautiful girl Cassandra in a family owned pet store. She was a year old when i got her. I was pretty new, and understood morphs, but didnt know what went on behind the scenes. Shes a spider morph, shes 5 years old now, and as i got older and more experienced in the hobby, i found more about the spider gene. Im super thankful ive never had any issues. She eats just fine, doesnt have a wobble, and is really sociable and not defensive at all. I want to breed BPs some day, but i know i will never breed her. I couldnt imagine having to euthanize babies because theyre wobble is so bad, they cant survive.

[@marielledejongh]

I have a spider ball python. Rescued from someone who did not want to care for him anymore. Bought from a petshop wich did not know what they were selling. (In the Netherlands it's not very common to buy your reptiles in a 'normal' petshop) But.. he is doing fine. A bit more difficult with feeding.. You only notice the wobble while feeding so he needs a bit more help and time. He's doing great!

[@gamebred26]

What's your opinion on breeding scale less snakes?

[@morganmclean7898]

I don’t disagree with keeping them, but I do disagree with breeding them because if there is any heightened risk of having a bad wobble I don’t see the point. It’s not worth the chance, and there are morphs that look quite similar like pinstripes, it’s not worth the risk of having a snake who can’t have a great quality of life

[@KH-tt3wv]

Hey Adam, thank you for taking the risk of posting an opinion about this topic, and for being honest about it. This has become so inflammatory over the last few years that it precludes any reasonable or civil discussion, and it's going to take people like you with experience and influence to pull the conversation back from the shouting match it's become. There is a loud minority of voices online declaring every single spider ball "special needs" by default, and demanding laws that would be both unenforceable and damaging to the hobby as a whole. Meanwhile, hundreds of thousands of keepers are quietly maintaining spiders in their personal collections with little to no issue. The bottom line is that we need more data, we need less shouting and soapboxing, and we need more adults in the room. Thanks for being one of those adults.

[@powerfool650]

The same thing happens with mammals. Breeding Merle to Merle (spots and stripes to spots and stripes) it can produce a pure white animal. A high percentage of them are deaf or blind. We have 2 deaf white cats from a local rescue, and a friend has a deaf dog, all from bad breeding.

[@albatraozgirl]

I have the same viewpoint as Kevin from NERD. I have a spider calico female. She's fat, healthy, and thriving. Clearly an animal that is really struggling isnt going to be able to eat on its own or live a normal life. Ive seen bigger issues in the W/Y gene in leopard geckos than I have in spider ball pythons. My girl gave me a healthy clutch of 7 and they are also eating and thriving with no wobble (Im not a breeder and plan to keep them all).

[@ii8283]

I'm more inclined to trust the experts who've been doing this their entire life than a bunch of emotional appeals on KZbin comments and forums.

[@FreedomAnderson]

I doubt you would make this argument for other morphs such as Super Black Pastels or Caramels which are known for facial or spinal deformities. As someone with Spina Bifida I do not support the breeding of animals known to have defects. Describing the deformity as a “spinal kink” significantly downplays the severity of the deformity. The same goes for describing the Spider neurological disorder simply as a “wobble”.

[@Repti-verse]

In my personal experience the spider morphs I have worked with, typically eat way better after hatching than other morphs. I think Kevin also said he has seen that with his spider ball pythons.

[@redheadedtobi8793]

Based on what we know, I cannot support neurological issued genes. I have seen terrible defects from working at a vet clinic just because that animal had the genes the breeder (and sometimes buyer) wanted. It's a whole quality of life issue. Are these animals having the same quality of life that any other of that species would?

[@WarfelsMorphs]

Great video Adam as always. I will say that I breed spiders and non of my adults and the babies I have produced show any signs of a wobble. I think many people jumped on this thought that spiders have a neurological issue. There was a study done on them compared to a non wobbling ball python and it showed that the spiders have a deformed inner ear. The sample size is still small but all the spiders in the study had a wobble and all had the deformed inner ear. But any ways I still appreciate your view on the topic. Perhaps if I had spiders with issues I may feel different but like I said everything here acts as normal as any other ball python, hatchlings and everything.

[@ii8283]

Please continue to breed Spiders and make more of these wonderful snakes available while simultaneously upsetting all of these people making emotional appeals based on zero facts. I smile everytime I think of how angry they are that most Spiders have good lives. Thank you.

[@alpoh]

I'm sorry Adam, I love you, but I cannot back you on this. If somebody willingly breeds an animal that they KNOW may have a debilitating condition, they're just so wrong in my book. It's incredibly unethical to me, to breed for looks over quality of life. These poor things are confused, lost, and have no way of knowing what is wrong with them. It's just cruel. There are similar morphs, with similar profits, that DO NOT have these issues. I just can't wrap my head around knowingly creating life that is so painful and sad. These morphs often have a horribly difficult time with eating, and after long enough, they can starve. It's such a cruel way to go, especially after suffering such a hard life. When I bought my first bp, I sifted through thousands and thousands of animals on morph market, sending tons of inquiries, simply to ensure I bought from a breeder that did NOT breed problematic morphs. I cannot and will not, in good conscience, give any money or support to somebody that knowingly/intentionally breeds problematic morphs. There is no reason these animals' looks should dominate their quality of life.

[@ii8283]

Emotional appeal, come up with a real argument.

[@chrisakachris5674]

Every single spider I have had eventually died from starvation because they would miss the food hit their head on the glass and not eat. Upside down slithering, complete confusion, and terrible life. I’m glad the ones you have seen are good. I will not waste my money on another snake that will kill itself.

[@xBloodxFangx]

I really hate that a lot of people like to compare spider BPs to autism, and thats why they should not be bred or should be culled is because they will not live happy, full, lives. I have autism, and although sometimes life can be a little more challenging for me, Im doing just fine and living out my life as an adult and will continue to do so. Saying they have "snake autism" and wont live happy lives is pretty insulting to both the snake and people on the spectrum. Yes, the neurological issues can be very serious but most cases they can live their full lives happy and contently, just maybe with a little extra help.

[@tonyamack7372]

I have a Spider Ball and she has never had any issues. She is a great eater and the biggest sweetheart. She was my second snake many years ago and I didn't know the bad wrap on these guys when I started out. I'm so glad I went in blind or it could have been a reason to not get her and I would have missed out. Breeding?? Maybe not but I would never pass up the morph as a pet.

[@Joshs.exquisite.serpents]

I'm definitely against breeding spider royals, in my opinion there's just no upside to it other than seeing a pretty spider pattern. (I do think they look beautiful) which isn't a good enough reason to risk producing babies that can't even stay upright or corkscrew endlessly. There are literally 1000s of morphs now that dont present with neurological issues so breeding spiders is completely pointless. Thankyou for sharing your views on this subject Adam, I look forward to seeing more controversial topic videos 🙂

[@Katy-LilacHollow]

That's pretty much where I am on the wobbly genes right now too. I like some of them, but I'm going to wait until a) more research is done and b)I'm experienced enough with educating people about ball pythons in general before I decide to include something one of them into a breeding project, regardless of the research results are favourable.

[@Katy-LilacHollow]

Calibees are one of the most beautiful combos out there.

[@WickensWickedReptiles]

great take!

[@brendapatterson7123]

Thank you for being rational as always! I will say that Go Herping is passionate about his beliefs. I don't think is is ideal to breed animals with known genetic issues...BUT any of you hating on Spider Balls and their breeders/owners better not own a Bull dog (skin issues, ear infections, can't breathe properly, can't deliver pups without a c-section, the list goes on!) or one of the hairless cats... I ❤ Kevin, his theory on building threads of trust is fascinating. I have learned so much from watching his videos that is applicable to my dogs, cats, horses and reptiles. He is the master of reptile behaviour!

[@Michael-tq6kr]

After having a spider lavender albino I'll never breed them. I'm not against people that do. But he just ain't right lol. He doesn't suffer, but struggles where my other snakes do not. Also with all the options out there and one being very close to spider with no bad effects why not stick to them. As a breeder ultimately I worry if I sell a snake that has a bad wobble that it may suffer because that keeper isn't prepared or willing to deal with that. So that is my main reasoning behind not working with them, other than the one "pet" I have.

[@eholmes1022]

we have a ball python with a head wobble and have to be very careful feeding her or she has extreme difficulty

[@snkes-yi5ny]

Question: Is it even necessary to breed more snakes? There seems to be enough in the hobby for everyone. Every time I go to any reptile shop, I see surrendered snakes. Those surrendered snakes could go to new people in the hobby. If there was a national registry, it'd be really easy to quantify the "need"/desire versus demand. Lastly, what impact is this hobby really making on the conservation of these animals in the wild?

[@ii8283]

You know that animals die, right? Like, they get old and die sometimes. Crazy I know, but that's actually why we breed them, so we can have more when the old ones die. Weird, I know.

[@steviekyme9153]

I have a spider yellow belly who I got 4 years ago and when I'm brought her I didn't know about the spider wobble, when I got her home after a couple weeks I noticed her would shake/wobble and her accuracy was trash and she climb up the wall and keep going till she fell and I would have lots of bangs and thuds through out the day. I'm not on board with breeding spider as I don't see why, if breeding is designed to strengthen a species and from what research shows the wobble doesn't get bred out to less severe and I don't get the whole roll of the dice idea of you may or may not get a wobble if you breed. I want to start breeding but I won't start BPs as I only have a Spider female and I don't want to pass it on. I thin Bryce is thriving but I do hate hearing her fall or corkscrewing when my normal BP does not, she is a lovely snake one of the best temperaments but I do think had I known about Spider I would not have even looked at her. To me it's just wild but you ain't gonna stop people with their kinda sorta almost bad mentalities.

[@antoniogonzalez4534]

Think any neural defective gene should be limited but not banned. Imo the odds of those having head wobble are only slightly greater than any other gene having defects. It's just as likely for a "normal" to have a defect or deformity found in ball pythons. How many kinked or eyeless snakes have you seen? Probably more than one's with head wobble, I know I have.

[@WickensWickedReptiles]

well said

[@leche2905]

honestly, hats off to you for posting such a controversial opinion, but with that being said when there's a market for a product, there will always be a seller/ breeder and there is no way you can own a spider ball python without supporting *those* breeders. no matter how ethical it is there with always be that large percentage that needs to be culled or just sold away to an unsuspecting person for profit.

[@leche2905]

this doesnt apply to rescues!!!

[@fkrgebs6773]

People always forget that you can just buy something else. Be yourself a good example and take another morph. One can choose. I was determined to buy my future ball python from breeder who feeds frozen thawed. I could be angry about breeders who feed live. Yes, but I just can not give them my money. You can just not buy a Spider. You can just not buy wild caught. You can just feed frozen/thawed. Talking loud and angry about something let people defend it. Showing better opportunities gives them an easier way to follow you.

[@allisnelson]

I have a spider morph of some kind. I didn’t realize it when I got it, but figured it out later. He has a slight issue when his head is not on the ground, and struck me once trying to get his mouse (I’m pretty pale and he’ll only eat white mice, understandable error) and he struck himself once (he’s pretty much white and the mouse was JUST on the other side of his body, also pretty understandable.) Other than those two instances (and his odd habit of taking his mouse into his water bowl and sharing a nice soak with it before dinner - basically taking it on a date first) he seems to be happy and healthy. I’m going to upgrade him to his adult cage soon here and am carefully planning it so he doesn’t have to work too hard to climb, just out of an abundance of caution. He’s just a big sweetheart and I love him so much. (He was a rescue off Craigslist.) I hate the whole thing so much because there is SUCH a stigma about the spider gene that I’m afraid to post pics of him or talk about it. And, in the realm of pets with breed/morph related health problems, the wobble is BASICALLY NOTHING (for most individuals). But, those are not vilified to nearly the same extent in the animal social media world.

[@giam9552]

I have a baby beardie and when I was deciding between him and geckos the biggest thing for me is the neurologic issues and that they are very skittish my beardie I think has one but he's getting a vet apt in a few days.

[@auroraasleep]

I think that it's really important to have breed standards for the show world across all species for the health and well-being of the animals (not that that is always the case with breed standards). I also think it's really important to recognize that not all morphs/breeds/individual critters are going to fall into those standards: I've had many rabbits that are outside of breed standard and they are great bunnies. Nothing wrong with them. I've had rabbits with special needs; I don't breed them, I take care of them, and it's all good. Someone else might send them to freezer camp, and that's fine too. As keepers we generally know when it's time to say "the right and kind thing to do is euthanize," though some people take a harder line on that than others. There is a similar "coat pattern with neurological issues" in English Angoras, called Vienna Mark, which is associated with an increased rate of seizures. I had a litter with VM, and lost 2 to seizures as young adults. NOT fun. Not something I'd choose to put more animals through. Not something I'd put myself or a different owner through because they live long enough to get attached. The others from the same litter are 6 years old now... but why take that chance just for a cute little white mark? It's not worth it. That's why it's not showable.

[@jellyturtle72yearsago89]

My personal opinion is that it’s cruel to breed but perfectly fine to keep. We should have a few people who have to breed the snakes to see if they can actually breed the wobble out, but I would say that the common person shouldn’t be breeding and selling. Spiders are a kinda 50/50 for me lol

[@ChaosSauce17]

Mine likes to scare me by swimming in their water bowl upside down. She has a slight wobble but not too bad. She also struggles with eating compared to my normal, but my black eyed Lucy struggles with eating in the same way so I don’t know that the gene is the reason. I also got both the spider and the Lucy free from two different people, so I don’t know the background of where they came from. I love my spider but I wouldn’t seek one out. I’d take another if it fell into my lap like the first one but not big on my list of desirable morphs.

[@TyeDyedIguana]

Even my coworkers and myself all have different opinions on spider balls! It's a polarizing subject for sure. I've noted a few of the comments mentioning it might be an inner ear deformity and I'd love to see more research done on that. As it stands now, ALL spiders theoretically have the defect and so personally it's not a morph I work with. We do offer them here at our shop though and I will say the vast majority we've had do not have noticeable wobble.

[@RockersSmt]

Just because you've had good experiences with the snakes you have doesn't mean you can come on here with anecdotal evidence and act like a snake biting itself doesn't negatively impact its quality of life. I'm going to leave this comment and unsubscribe, these are living animals not collectors items that you can buy because you like the way it looks.

[@bradenselkirk4930]

I have a 2 yr old spider het pied. Shes one of my first few snakes and shes great as far as her temperment, behaviors and eating. And yes they are born in captivity and do just great .

[@brandibastian4193]

When I started watching channels and I first heard about this neurological thing that's connected to the coloration or pattern or whatever the hell of a spider Gene is and basically they're all going to be wobbly it feels like a bad idea cuz it's like this coloration or pattern always comes with a neurological birth defect then it seems like it shouldn't be something that's allowed to be bred for I mean I'm a cat mom my first cat had a neurological birth defect he was wobbly I feel like it would be like somebody trying to breed him I mean was he living his best life absolutely should he be bred to possibly pass that on no

[@katreilly3094]

I'm getting a butter spin blast which is a spider morph and she is so sweet and very loving and very smart and curious but she corkscrews and she has a little bitty wobble and I love that because I shake and I have balance problems. She has a little disability just like me.