Romanticism in A Song of Ice & Fire: The Fight Against Nihilism

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

*To push against despair and nihilism, you first have to write it.* Being a pessimist is something we all experience at some point, and so do the characters in the novels, but that doesn’t mean _A Song of Ice and Fire_ itself is nihilistic. In fact, it's the opposite. Yes, the story gives us many points of view, but we do have central characters, characters we root for, who consistently push past their darkest moments. That persistence alone challenges the idea that the series embraces nihilism. The fact that _ASOIAF_ makes you feel deeply, to root for characters despite everything, shows it’s not nihilistic. Nihilism rejects the very things _ASOIAF_ makes us cling to: morality, meaning, and the importance of human experience. It hints at pointlessness, but _GRRM_ pushes past that, acknowledging the struggle while showing there’s still something worth fighting for. It’s that struggle, that refusal to surrender to meaninglessness, that defines the true spirit of the series. One of my favorite stories _by GRRM_ is actually _A Song for Lya,_ and _ASOIAF_ follows some of the same patterns. At first glance, the story might seem to have a nihilistic message, portraying humanity as fundamentally alone and deeply flawed. The ending is melancholic, but it carries a tone of resilience. Robb acknowledges the suffering of existence, but he faces it anyway, holding on to the hope that connection, things worth fighting for, and meaning can still be found in life. We develop our dreams, desires, and goals because of flaws and the sense that something is missing. *We should not despair. We should not go gentle into that good night. So winter is coming, but light the torches, drink the wine and gather around the fire, we can still defy it!*

[@nont18411]

I think the lack of Martin’s work ethic and his inability to trust the other people to help him are what cemented people’s view (and mine) of ASOIAF as a nihilistic book series, albeit the story is still at the second act low point, because since TWOW and ADOS will never come out, the furthest point in time of this story are - Ned got beheaded, just so that Robb would also got shanked to death and beheaded, Catelyn got her throat slit (and got resurrected as a vengeful zombie), then Jon also got shanked to death just like Robb. The Starks are systematically genocided by Martin. - Even the living Starks are in a very dangerous predicament for each of them. Sansa is being corrupt and groomed by a pedophile. Arya got brainwashed by a death cult into a sadistic serial killer. Bran got his body and mind hijacked by Bloodraven, who’s also a slave to the weirwood net, and was forced to eat his own friend, Rickon is probably getting eaten by cannibals or turned into a cannibal (like Bran) himself. - Or if we look at another non-Stark related plotline like House Martell, Oberyn got his head exploded and didn’t get any justice for his sister and her children. Quentyn got barbecued super crispy just because he’s very dutiful to his father. - Brienne is now in a predicament that she must either kill Jaime or betray Catelyn, whom she swore an oath to, to prevent her from killing Podrick. - Tyrion is now determined to become evil as a revenge against his siblings, just like Jon Connington who is willing to become a war criminal to “get things done” like Tywin. Tyrion will also become a corrupting force for Dany, just like Littlefinger to Sansa, or Tywin to Aerys. - Ramsay sexually assaulted Jeyne Poole and castrated Theon. Plus he’s winning against Stannis. He’s like a Gary Stu, or Mary Sue, of villains. Simply unbeatable. - Euron is tormenting Aeron Greyjoy, one of his rape victims, while also mocking Aeron’s faith as pointless and will only serve him as he’s doing a blood sacrifice to summon the kraken to attack the Redwyne fleet which will help him sack Oldtown and will put Samwell, Gilly and Mance’s kid in a grave danger. - We all know that an innocent Princess Shireen will be barbecued by Melisandre sooner or later, probably to revive Jon. - Varys killed Kevan Lannister, a good man who’s capable of ruling the country well, to put it into further instability and chaos. If the story progressed beyond these, then it might have some release of tension and become less bleak, but since the story so far ended with these (and let’s face it, the final two books will never exist) and with how the show gave the impression of how it actually ended, it’s totally normal for the general public to view this series as bleak and nihilistic.

[@flavius5722]

​@@nont18411👏👏 well said ,that is why this books will die with Martin În 20 years the only time when we will heard of asoiaf will be in youtube videos like top 10 biggest failed sagas

[@TheDasilva1]

​@@flavius5722 By no metric it's a failed saga. It's wildly popular, most likely will inspire other, younger, authors and its impact on the Fantasy community is undeniable. Is Dune a failed saga going by your criteria?

[@Jamesxx15]

@@nont18411 Even if the story finishes, theres no way to really recover from the bleakness of it. Haha. But the nihilism is why I love it, even though im not a nihilist myself. I agree with Martins takes anyways. Villains should be villains. They don't point the gun at you and then change their mind.

[@nont18411]

@@Jamesxx15 Still much less nihilistic than Berserk though

[@turtleguyfan]

the biggest sign that ASoIaF isn’t grimdark to me is how it treats the legacies of Ned and Tywin after their deaths. Ned dies in the first book and his impact/influence because of how honorable and an overall great guy he was is l STILL felt in the story by ADwD (and i’m sure will still be in Winds and Dream too!). The Mountain clans fight for Stannis just for the chance to kill Boltons and save who they think is Ned’s daughter. Tywin on the other hand, who people give an absurd amount of reverence to, dies and his house is surrounded on all sides by of all the people who hate them, all because of Tywin’s stupid shortsighted victory with the RW.

[@Ruosteinenknight]

Another thing is how the setting treats the Freys. In nihilistic world, Walder Frey's actions would be something that the setting would aplaud or just shrug by saying "that's war" or something. But the books make it clear, that Freys are now despised by the Northern houses and even their allies whom they made service don't think that highly of them(one reason why Tywin made use of Freys was that Lannisters can appeal to plausible deniability and claim Walder Frey came up with it on their own, to take the blame) : not even Jaime, who wasn't exactly greatest fan of Starks. He understand the logic behind, but that doesn't mean he's toasting a drink to absolute morons and cowards like Freys.

[@darrenfleming7901]

@@Ruosteinenknight that's why the perfect example of the show's tone versus the books' tone is the decision to omit the "the North remembers" speech from ADWD. That speech is Ned and Robb's legacy, the proof that their death was not forgotten, that their bravery and honour was not forgotten. It shows that even if the world at that moment has devolved into an extreme level of barbarity and cruelty, people don't just get away with that kind of thing. The Freys and Boltons are not being rewarded for their betrayal, they're just the next step in a cycle of vengeance. Showing that the North is biding their time and sharpening their knives is making the story brutal, but not nihilistic, which is what ASOIAF excels at. In comparison, the fact that the northern house just kinda roll over and give up in the show after Robb dies is actual grimdark nihilism, it's conveying the idea that all their ideals and ambitions were foolish and that the Freys and Boltons are the winners because they were cynical and shameless. It's such a jarring tonal shift and it's why I think with the benefit of hindsight the show fucked up the narrative and tone much earlier than most people realized, and by the end of it it was just the butterfly effect that had completely warped this story into something entirely different.

[@thewhitewolf6715]

@@RuosteinenknightYou said it! Some fools think the Freys won because of the Red Wedding but it was what you’d call a Pyrrhic victory. Yes they kill Robb and all his men. And they get to be the Lords of Riverrun. But… they are now absolutely despised by all of Westeros and any of them out in the open are open season. They’ll never be trusted again. Because of the show, people think this is a story where being good is dumb and gets you killed and being evil is being smart and gets you are. But that’s not true at all. Being evil can get you killed just as much as being good. George shows that in many ways. Joffrey was poisoned because Olenna and Littlefinger wanted the sadistic little shit gone. Ramsay and Roose may be in power but most of the Northerners (unlike the disloyal cowards from the show) are just waiting to kill them because of how cruel and evil they are. And Tywin’s ruthlessness and cruelty has earned his House the hatred of everyone and with him gone, there’s nothing stopping them from destroying the Lannisters now.

[@nont18411]

@@darrenfleming7901 The Northern houses in the show are so spineless. They had more issue with Robb marrying a “FoReIGN wh0R3” (a thing that nobody really cares except for House Bolton in the books) than the Boltons killing them that they refused to help the Starks take back Winterfell. The only one house who shows some kind of the backbone is House Mormont.

[@nont18411]

@@darrenfleming7901 Actually, they didn’t just “give up”, they also sold Rickon to be slaughtered by Ramsay because they somehow hate the wildlings and Jon that much. The northerners are much more backstabbing than the southerners in the show.

[@sinthoras1917]

The whole discussion starts with the problem that a lot of people have no idea what nihilism is.

[@NotAnotherAccount735]

That, also people do not care about the themes many times I think. They care about the events only and the "cool" stuff.

[@andrewgadberry7884]

Yeah, it's been misappropriated and is so watered down that it's mostly invoked more in the sense of thematic mood than a rigorous philosophical position

[@Captain_Insano_nomercy]

​@andrewgadberry7884 I think it is often used like a synonym for cynicism, which of course it isn't, but 90% of the time people should use cynicism instead of nihilism

[@Medvelelet]

It's edgy teenagers misinterpreating Nitzhe more often than not.

[@flavius5722]

The biggest nihilists are the ones who still pretend that GRRM still cares about this books

[@therealelderking5830]

ASOIAF is Martin trying to be anti-romanticism then realizing that he is a romantic at heart. Dunk and Egg is Martin embracing that fact and running with it.

[@Captain_Insano_nomercy]

Which is why I prefer Dunk and Egg to his other works

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

I LOVE D&E

[@Valkanna.Nublet]

I think the main thing to focus on is George saying the ending will be "bittersweet". It will have a happy ending, but not perfectly happy, there will still be some sadness there.

[@BillyBasd]

Like LOTR. Sure the world is saved. At the cost of magic, and elves. As Galdriel said I will diminish and go to the west.

[@mkkm1701]

But that makes sense. Just like you can't have an eternal winter, you can't have an eternal summer.

[@fly8668]

I hope it's neither happy nor sad. As George says he is a gardener. I hope he stays true to his word and gives an end to the world as if it's real. I just want to see a fantasy story as perfect and logical as our own world. The outcome should make sense, it doesn't have to be a good ending.

[@fg3893]

I notice this happens a lot in media discourse these days, the conflation of depressing /dark/realistic setting with a depressing message

[@Captain_Insano_nomercy]

The human tendency towards pessimism. Though, to be fair, that is our survival adaptations hurting us emotionally. Pessimistic humans survived more often and here we are

[@fly8668]

Can someone please recommend me some of these realistic setting with a good story? Cause all i've seen is the same goodie two shoe saves the world with no consequences.

[@9eishitasharma501]

@@fly8668 monster is a great work that deconstructs nihilism. all the characters are morally grey, even the protagonist. it is an anime/manga tho.

[@nicodemusedwards6931]

“Nothing's perfect, the world's not perfect, but it's there for us, trying the best it can. That's what makes it so damn beautiful.” -Roy Mustang (FMA: 2003)

[@Beeeeeyourself]

Hope in the face of miserable odds is the best part of the books, it's what makes them so unapologetically beautiful

[@darrenfleming7901]

exactly, it's a way more grounded depiction of romanticism, because in the real world, life doesn't conform itself to your expectations, and being a romantic is holding to your beliefs despite all the times that life tries to test you and break you.

[@justarandomgirlvx3578]

I love that this video was made! I think it came in exactly the right time. Just about a week ago I saw a video called "The only way to finish The Winds of Winter" by Goodness With Fists which argued how nihilist Martin's world is and that nothing apparently in his story has a purpose and was only written to be an anti-Tolkien work which is why it is so hard to finish. Since seeing that video I saw so many people simply repeating the points made there with the exact argumemtation. I can sleep peacefully now having seen that there are still fans out there who don't just repeat this same pessimist take, not rooted in any evidence and mostly superficial analysis and the show adaptation. Then this good old "Martin has the same ending for his books in mind like in the show but will execute it differently"-take again plays into this belief that George and his story is nihilist like the show. George RR Martin: "I mean, it’s no secret that Tolkien has been a huge influence on me, and I love the way he ended ’Lord of the Rings.’ It ends with victory, but it’s a bittersweet victory. Frodo is never whole again, and he goes away to the Undying Lands, and the other people live their lives. And the scouring of the Shire-brilliant piece of work, which I didn’t understand when I was 13 years old: ’Why is this here? The story’s over?’ But every time I read it I understand the brilliance of that segment more and more. All I can say is that’s the kind of tone I will be aiming for." Doesn't sound very anti Tolkien and nihilist to me!

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

You wrote the perfect comment in another one of your answers, and it summarizes everything. _(Edit)_ P.S. By the way, I’m not familiar with the video you’re talking about, but this conversation has been going on for years, so I’m not exactly surprised.

[@flavius5722]

Goodness with Fists was 100 % right

[@lipingrahman6648]

Yes I saw that video as well and had a back and forth with Goodness with Fists. I did manage I think to convince him that Martin and Tolkien are not so different in theme or purpose. And anyone who has read the larger corpus of Tolkien’s works know how dark he gets. It’s just the habits of American writers that are off putting. But I do agree that the books can’t be finished, Martin has written himself into a corner.

[@KaiHung-wv3ul]

THANK YOU! So many people I think completely misunderstands the story on this fundamental level, and I think I myself didn't fully grasp what Martin is actually writing about until I read A Feast for Crows. Yes, there won't be a perfect ending where everything is magically fixed, yes ice and fire will ravage the land, and yes, winter will come for all of our characters. But, in the end, after all the death, sorrow, and tragedy, there will be, as the title of the last book suggests, a Dream of Spring.

[@flavius5722]

Do you really still belive that the last two books will ever be realease

[@KaiHung-wv3ul]

@@flavius5722 There's a chance for Winds, Dream...well, that'll take a miracle.

[@Gunleaver]

The show went off the rails in the first SCENE and when they NAMED it. The first scene of both versions, was the three Nights Watch members riding out on patrol and encountering the undead and their icy masters for the first time in thousands of years. In the book, they are characters, with backstories, personalities, and connections to the rest of the setting. On the show, they are nameless redshirts, who are there to be killed, horror movie style. In the book, the leader, despite being characterized as a spoiled noble, who is inexperienced and in over his head, and kind of snotty to his men, nonetheless shows brains in noticing clues to oddities, and courage when facing his death. In the mind of the narrating character who had noted all of his shortcomings, on seeing how he stands up to his killers and fights back as best he cane, we get the observation "in that moment, he was a boy no longer, but a man of the Night's Watch." He did his job. That MATTERS to the story in the book. The book story cares about him. The show does not. He is a prop, useful only in how his destruction establishes the threat of the villains. The prologue to the first book is romantic, and the cold open to the first episode is nihilistic. In the books, the phrase "Game of thrones" is used twice in the eponymous volume. The first time is when Dany repeats Viserys' belief that the common people of the realm long for the return of their rightful ruler, and Jorah replies that the common people only care about the things that matter to them - their well being, the health of their families, and to be left in peace while the nobles play their 'game of thrones'. Jorah adds "they never are." Later, Cersei, in her climactic discussion with Ned tries to sell him on the notion of seizing power together and when he rejects it, she says "when you play the "game of thrones" you win or you die.' Ned just ignores that line and goes on to make the rest of his deal. But the show loved it so much they took up her quote as a tag line and thesis statement of the series. And in the context of Cersei's character arc, it is NOT a moral for the story, it is revelation of her personal tragic flaw and her major political shortcoming: ALL that matters to Cersei is power, power is a zero sum game to her, and she is incapable of sharing power or settling for second place in her "game". This obsession with, and love of, power drives Cersei to her own destruction, and impels her to wager her children's lives and ruin everything else in her life to pursue or retain power. "Win or die" is NOT wisdom, it is a tragedy. The game of thrones is not the entirety of the series, it is the first act, a preliminary distraction, that prevents the heroes from fighting the real threat. Everyone ignores the Wall and the Nights Watch, because they are preoccupied with the Game, the rulers and lords ignore the welfare of the people they are supposed to be protecting and helping, because their priority is whatever will help them win the Game. Even the good people, whose hearts are in the right place, who want to do right by the regular folks, and who would fight the evil threat if they knew about it, are forced to play the Game to protect themselves and their people from the Players. GRRM can have his heroes fail at politics, because it's not important to the story, and they come through where it matters. Ned might not have been able to put the rightful king on the throne, but he is still a hero, because he raised his children to be heroes, who can save the realm because of the values and love he taught and enabled in them. He might not have saved the throne, but his legacy endures in the realm he ruled for years, because he did right by his people, who know, understand and appreciate that, and are rejecting his family's enemies and betrayers. But because the show only cares about the Game, all that matters to them is that Ned lost and is therefore a failure. He might look like a hero, but what good is being a hero, if you fail to win the Game? And thus the story they think they are adapting become nihilistic.

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

I cannot express how much I adore this comment. I totally agree with everything, since I am one of the people who hate how they chose the name Game of Thrones for the whole thing for all the reasons you mentioned and it should have been a warning about how the story will continue. All the prologues but especially the first one, are some of the best chapters that Grrm has written and completely break down the themes and spirit of the novels. All of them, every single one of them shows people trying to fight death from Will and Royce to Cressen and Varamyr. You are not rooting for everyone and not everyone is succeeding, but not even once it feels pointless. Magic is at the core of every single prologue and we saw a terrible adaptation of the first one while removing the rest. Even the AFFC Prologue, which begins as the most removed from the magic among the other prologues, ends with magic again at its core. Thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts!

[@flavius5722]

"He raised his kids to be heroes " his kids are doing worst în the books that they did in the show , the luckiest of them is Robb because the death dont feel pain anymore

[@flavius5722]

​@@CompanyOfTheCatIf you dont consider Fire and Blood nihilistic, than is something wrong with you

[@Gunleaver]

@@flavius5722 The books aren't done yet. It's not a coincidence that EVERY one of his remaining PoV children has been experiencing conflicts between their family loyalties and Stark identity and the demands of their mentors or institutions. The Faceless Men are trying to make Arya forget that she is Arya Stark and become no one, a pure weapon to carry out executions. Littlefinger is trying to mold Sansa into his pliant co-conspirator and lover, based on his idealized fantasy of Catelyn, he is making her take a false identity and if he could make her forget any affiliation she has with Ned, he would. Bran's mentor believes and is teaching him that he will have to lose his sense of self and become one with the weirwood network. And just like Jon could not separate the battle against the Others from the fight to restore good governance to the North, but in the end, right before his murder, chose Winterfell over the Wall, Arya, Sansa and Bran are going to overcome their mentors' efforts, reject the erasure of their identities and come home to restore Winterfell. That's the narrative Martin has written, and unlike the nihilistic hacks writing for the show, he does not believe in sudden swerves or shock for shock's sake. Whatever you may think of his honesty regarding his work and production, within the story itself he plays fair and does not try to trick the readers.

[@flavius5722]

@@Gunleaver You lost me at " the books aren't done yet " and "he dosent try to trick the readers " - it had been 13 years , Stephen King is writing at least a book per year and he is older

[@aahana4931]

i feel like the best example of this is Ned's legacy vs Tywin's - Ned lived by honor and died for it, in the short term it may be interpreted as realistic or he can be written off as plain stupid, but his children still benefit from his honor, people in the north remember the Stark's justice and are willing to go to war for Ned's children. Contrasted with Tywin, he got everything he wanted but as soon as he's dead the Lannisters are literally falling apart. GRRM deviates from Tolkien in the sense that, one's good deeds may not immediately pay off but in the long term, your honor and good deeds live on after your death. It is a mix of optimistic and realistic in that sense.

[@flavius5722]

"But his childrens still benefits from his honour " 😂😂😂😂 Yeah , Robb ' s body is în the green fork , Sansa is the play thing of Littlefinger, Arya had sold his soul to a death cult , Bran is turning în to a monster Rickon live on a island of canibals, and the Night's watch had killed Jon just because is to dangerous to be closed to a Stark ( alegedly) în the kingdom of lord Bolton "Wiling to go to war for Ned's children " half of that peoples are Stannis men and they don't give a shit about Arya ( who is not even Arya) and there are more northeners fighting for Bolton than the ones who join Stannis

[@nont18411]

Jury is still out though. As long as Martin will never release his final 2 books and let someone else continue his work in case he dies, that means House Bolton rule Winterfell, Jon stays dead and Daenerys is shitting herself forever.

[@copiouscopium9687]

Once upon a time, when I first started engaging with ASOIAF, I saw a lot of people talking about how it was nihilistic. After all; why would the world be so dark and cruel? My dad and I simply scoffed; the purpose of such cruelty, we agreed, was not to vouch for nihilism- it was to promote romanticism. These obscenely cruel villains exist because at the end of the day, their cruelty will only make the inevitable triumph of good all the more sweet. GRRM might not admit it, but he’s like Tolkien in that regard.

[@nont18411]

Which in an ironic sense, feels like a parallel to Jaime and Ned. A cynical and pessimistic man like Jaime might consider Ned to be an honorable fool but he always wanted Ned’s approval and his character trajectory is about becoming more and more like Ned. A dead Ned Stark still has so much power and influence over a living Jaime Lannister.

[@zoid_on_youtube]

Ive noticed that some people have taken the mentaility that being positive and hopeful means ignoring everything thats sad or grim about the world and pretend everything is always fine and happy, which I think is both a hollow and dangerous way of thinking. We all know a person whose advise for literally everything in life is "just think positive" like thats gonna solve any and all problems. Positive themes are obviously most evident when contrasted with the negative. Another story that this applies to is Berserk, which can also be extremely dark, but the point of the story is ultimately about hope and never giving up the struggle to find happiness despite everything the world may throw at you, which is both a positive message and one that wouldnt land nearly as hard if the story didnt feature as much darkness as it does.

[@Captain_Insano_nomercy]

Very true I mean Middle Earth is dark and depressing af. The message is optimistic but the world is totally fucked. Gandalf even knows that they basically have no shot, and certainly no way of winning a conventional war

[@OfAshesPhoenix]

The saddest thing about it is that the show will continue to get projected onto the books indefinitely; perhaps even when we have "Winds" and maybe even "Spring." Even George's plain comments on how the readers should separate these two and that it will be different fail to sway the "readers." Which is why I perfectly understand George's recent comments about his preoccupation with his legacy. It feels sometimes like all the original book readers are gone or went radio silent and the discussion is headlined by, pardon my French, show d*ckriders. The Ramsay quote is perfectly emblematic of it - even though, in the books, he doesn't say it; nor is the context of it relevant to the ending of either the show or the books, since he specifically means Theon's predicament in that moment. I doubt it was ever intended to be meta commentary, Benioff and Weiss weren't shrewd enough for that. To use this quote as an argument as to why ASOIAF is nihilistic is just lazy and shows that there are no actual counterarguments to be offerred. Same with other overused quotes used in place of actual arguments... I honestly don't even think that this quote applies to the show either, because... the show's ending wasn't a "bad ending" for anyone but Daenerys and her people. Most characters, if they survived, ended the story in places they were happy or at least somewhat content with. Bran king, Sansa queen, Jon beyond the wall with the people he felt most comfortable with, Arya exploring the world, Tyrion Hand of the King. Which is why Dinklage's quote of "you expected pretty white people to ride off into the sunset and that's why you're disappointed" is so annoying - this is precisely what happened in your show, though? Lest we forget, the last black woman (and a former slave at that) in the cast was m*rdered in chains as her lover watched, lol. Of course, ulitmately, the show's ending was nihilistic - a revolutionary leader becomes a rabid dog to be slaughtered, the idea of a democracy is laughed at, nothing fundamentally changes. Slavoj Zizek fell off in recent years, but he summed it up perfectly: "So justice prevailed - but what kind of justice? The new king is Bran: crippled, all-knowing, who wants nothing - with the evocation of the insipid wisdom that the best rulers are those who do not want power. A dismissive laughter that ensues when one of the new elite proposes a more democratic selection of the king tells it all." In retrospect, it was sort of inevitable that Dumb and Dumber will lean more and more heavily into that nihilist slob. What was less expected is that the show and the books will be merged so heavily that the show will so deeply influence the understanding of the books. I've long believed that most people liked the ending of "Game of Thrones", because they were already accustomed to this nihilistic, shocking, grimdark developments; their gripe was with the execution, not with the actual events. Hence the comments of "it's gonna be the same in the books, only George will write it brilliantly." And here we are back at George and his fears over his legacy... Great video as always Cat, the beacon of High Tower has nothing on you. And by the way: is that a new mic I'm hearing?

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

Yes, on everything. I had forgotten about that Peter Dinklage quote, and I rolled my eyes once more. The ending was happy for almost everyone (unless you do not f*ck with slavery or are a former slave, in which case, it seems like you’re just out of luck). It felt hollow and meaningless for every single character. Ultimately, the whole story felt pointless. All the comments like 'The show was bad, but...' or 'Even if it doesn’t end the way we expect, it will...' don’t really make sense given what we know. I’m not sure what will happen when 'Winds' drops and 'Spring' (if it ever comes out), but believe that many people might not like them very much. Also, thanks! 😊😊 PS. It’s a new mic, yes, but I think I need to fine-tune the reverb a bit more.

[@OfAshesPhoenix]

@@CompanyOfTheCat Once the book comes out, I predict that generally 2 groups will get formed. First will be the people who will despise the book because nothing they expected will happen there; nothing from the show, nothing from the generally agreed-upon predictions, nada. They will talk about how originally he was going to write exactly what was in the TV show but the backlash and 'toxic stans' intimidated him into changing his ending. Second group will be the people who previously insisted that the book will be similar/the same to the show and/or repeated the show-based predictions, but will actually pretend to never have done it. They will act like it's oh-so-obvious that it was always going to be different!

[@nont18411]

To be fair, even in case of the “good adaptation” like Lord of the Rings, how many of LOTR fans actually read the books? The same can be said of Game of Thrones fans who know the story as “Game of Thrones” more than “A Song of Ice and Fire”. The visual media is easier to digest and less time-consuming than reading the books so the show will be projected onto the books, by default.

[@Beniamin.F]

​@@OfAshesPhoenixNo the saddest thing is that are still peoples who belive that the last two books will ever be realesed

[@OfAshesPhoenix]

@@Beniamin.F 🤓☝️

[@AnImAtEdCaRmInE]

"Love is the death of duty" is GRRM's message, and that while duty is sometimes necessary, we are all doomed if love does not win in the end. The others are cold, and as far as we know, emotionless. Life and love are the same in ASOIAF, and while there are times where people who care more for themselves than others gain power and control, eventually they will fail because love unites us, and united we can accomplish great and terrible things. This was a great video, and gave me more ways to consider the theme of love in Martin's work, thank you.

[@mycroft_moriarty]

Love the Greek language "internal commentary". Excellent touch!

[@eric2500]

To push against despair and nihilism, you must first write it. Express it. Act it. It is going to be an excellent conclusion at the end of the next two books...

[@mildlyobesegoat7262]

dream on, these books will never be published

[@dustinsmith2021]

@@mildlyobesegoat7262and you’ve missed the point

[@mildlyobesegoat7262]

@@dustinsmith2021 how? I was just pointing out that the conclusion he's talking about won't happen

[@Dnsmskdkndf]

​@mildlyobesegoat7262 don't bother with them dude says he probably won't finish and they're here with their ears plugged.

[@Dnsmskdkndf]

You'll probably be ashes or worm food when those books do conclude.

[@deityjc]

One of my favorite chapters of ASIOAF sums this up perfectly: the ending to The Hedge Knight. Dunk is forced into a really bad situation due to the cruelty of a certain Targaryen prince and Dunk's own chivalric nature. He has to defend himself in a special kind of Trial by Combat, and while he comes out victorious it comes at a cost: the death of the Prince of Dragonstone. He contemplates whether or not the realm would've been better off if he hadn't demanded a Trial by Combat, if they had taken his foot instead. He suggested maybe the realm would one day need his foot, even more so than a Prince's life. While it's definitely tragic, it's an outcome that was just. The Prince of Dragonstone knew the risk, but still backed Dunk because he could tell Dunk was a true knight at heart, unlike his nephew who had put Dunk in that situation. It was a reminder that even death itself isn't nihilistic, it's a way of life. A noble death where you fought for a just cause is sad, but doesn't justify the darkness in the world. I'd argue that it actually proves that light will always outshine even the darkest parts of the world, because it proves we can always be better.

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

D&E have various similar moments and it's why I love them so much.

[@three-eyedmonkey7344]

Absolutely agree. Honour and love are the qualities that will win out in the end and save the realm. I don’t care what the show did, the books are anything but nihilistic.

[@flavius5722]

How could you still belive that there will be any TWOW after 12 years ?

[@three-eyedmonkey7344]

@@flavius5722 I guess I’m one of those dreamers. I’m confident we will get Winds. But even if we don’t get anymore books, my point stands on what has already been published. For example, Dany’s third fire is to love.

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

I also love this comment.

[@three-eyedmonkey7344]

@@CompanyOfTheCat I really like your videos. Glad I found you.

[@vallraffs]

Absolutely right. You have to ignore so much of the books to believe that it remotely shares the show's philosophy of grittyness & edgy cynicism. The books treat things like honour, justice, chivalry, love and faith as serious and deeply human facets of life. They are treated to some questioning and skepticism, because the heart of the story lies in examining how noble ideals exist alongside the all the baser and unromantic parts of the world. But it certainly doesn't take for granted that in the face of a dark world romanticism and nostalgia are revealed to be false and hollow. That's almost the inverse of the books' ethos, and completely antithetical to the spirit of ASOIAF.

[@conrad4852]

I’m glad that people are still talking about the books and recognizing how badly the show ended. The biggest problem I always had with show Daenerys turning dark (or Jamie’s return to Cersei or the stupid Cleganebowl) was not merely that it was an unmotivated character heel turn at odds with previous character traits and the setting norms, it was the nihilism of it. I do think it would’ve been possible to write such a dark turn in a way that felt earned, but ultimately, I would only embrace that if we weren’t nihilistic as well and the show very much was nihilistic.

[@seto_kaiba_]

Even the show’s ending didn’t strike me as particularly nihilistic-it didn’t seem to have much of a theme or rhyme or reason at all. Just thrown together in a rush with little to no concern for vision. I say this cause after the dark turn at the end, Jon promptly stabs Dany and Bran and Tyrion establish an allegedly better system at the end-all within the span of an episode.

[@lordanonimmo7699]

Dont understand how Jaime returning to Cersei is Nihilistic at all,she is literally the love of his life and was pregnant with his child after their 3 children had died before,he even died the way he wanted "in the arms of the woman i love". If anything is probably played as one of the most romantic moments of the seire

[@seto_kaiba_]

@@lordanonimmo7699 Its not really nihilistic. His quote about the people sort of is but honestly, its more just bad writing than imo than any kind of nihilistic theme. Him going back to Cersei could have worked too if the rest of the season weren't so bad and he didn't say that line. Its incomplete character development which in my opinion is underrated.

[@conrad4852]

@@lordanonimmo7699 his rejection of the idea that the common people matter (in contrast to what he said back in season 3) & his turn from Brienne to back Cersei is kinda of pessimistic in that its de facto asserting that we cannot fundamentally better ourselves. Yes, the death with Cersei is played as romantic but I hate it--Cersei is one of the most reprehensibly morally monstrous people in the show & for her to get an ending with her incest lover feels so utterly morally gross to me.

[@conrad4852]

@@seto_kaiba_moral improve is a choice we all can make & if we make it, we have to make it again & again & again so for Jamie to cease improve & to return to Cersei (like an alcoholic who was sober for years & then returns to the bottle) could work possibly if there was character development towards as you say AND if the framing of the show acknowledged just how reprehensible a decision it was & acknowledged that a better decision was still possible rather than the weirdly romantic ending which is presented as if it was inevitable & thus true moral improvement was never possible.

[@goldvondensternen]

This is such a badly-needed video as I am constantly debating this with people with a shallow understanding of the series and its themes. I appreciate how you get straight to the point!

[@nerdcorner2680]

It really just hinges on how it ends. From what we’ve seen most stories follow the simple set up and pay off of “good deeds -> bad ending” or “bad deeds -> good ending”. So this hinges on if the story as a whole ends with good deeds being rewarded with the iron throne or bad deeds. (Morality is important here because that is really the only metric we have for if life has meaning because we cannot speak to god ourselves). If the good ending happens, that means all the suffering from the good was part of a larger plan, or that it was meant to lead to this good outcome. If the bad ending happens then it means that there is no greater good in GoT but rather evil will always win because it is willing to sink lower (a pacifist can’t stop himself from being robbed by men willing to harm a pacifist). Yes there are some instances where bad deeds lead to bad outcomes like Tywin’s death, but these are pretty few and far between and can be easily argued the other way (Tywin’s trust and faith in Jamie is actually what got him killed rather than karma for treating Tyrian so poorly)

[@Billpro25]

Thank you so, so, SO much for this, sister. It is honestly disheartening and even horrifying how many people have come to view ASOIAF as an amoral tale of darkness & despair that lacks any meaning or value. Worse yet, many who have immersed themselves in GRRM's universe came out with the conclusions that, since things like honour, love, and compassion have no material value whatsoever and will even jeopardize your interests and even life, might as well try to be more like the victorious monsters instead (Petyr Balish, Tywin & Cercei Lannister, Roose & Ramsey Bolton, Gregor Clegane & his men-at-arms, Walder Frey and his conspiratorial family members, etc.). I am sick of it! It spits on the deaths of every good person that was lost in this story, and dismisses the efforts of those that came before them (if you've read The World of ICE & FIRE and Fire & Blood, you know of whom am I talking about) as worthless... Thank you again. Valar dohaeris.

[@nont18411]

I think the keyword is “victorious”. If being successful requires being a monster, then become a monster then. Life is too short to be good and wins nothing.

[@irishpotatothief531]

His story is realism-inspired romantic fantasy. It has moments for you to cheer, moments to cry, moments to question yourself. Its the heart in conflict with itself, and the human spirit at its finest and worst. Calling that nihilistic is just a misrepresentation and misreading. Great video!!!

[@Belladonnafeli]

wow immediate subscription. I loved this video so much, It's nice to finally hear some like minded people.

[@reginamonet22]

Thank you! This goes with something I have been thinking about for a while, of how sincere the books are and how that's exactly why I like them.

[@TheDragonqueenistheslaye-zz5dp]

A great example of how ASOIAF is not nihilistic is in AFFC with Brienne when she fought against 7. She could have died very easily but she survived. And I think that the reason for that is that narratively she didn't do anything wrong. She knew perfectly that she had no chance against 7 but still chose to fight because that is her duty. That's why she survived. Lord Stark on the other hand did something wrong. His plan was too dangerous and he overestimated his hand. That's why he was narratively punished. Not that he was evil or because he was good but ... nihilism. He lost because he didn't make the best possible decision. That's not nihilism, that is just realism. You can succeed or fail depending on the quality of the decisions you make. And this is applied to both heroes and villains. Goeffrey was punished and so will be Walder Frey, Ramsey, Roos, Euron etc. Being evil is not exactly smart and it will not be rewarded. Where is the nihilism here?

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

"That's not nihilism, that is just realism. You can succeed or fail depending on the quality of the decisions you make. And this is applied to both heroes and villains." Exactly that!

[@TheCreepyLantern]

i think a lot of it is that the story isn't over. there's meant to be another two books. Imagine if nothing had been made of Star Wars after Empire strikes back. If fans had to sit around for twenty years going 'thats it? Luke's been mutilated, Han's frozen and sold off to gangsters, the empire won at Hoth and theres no sign of them loosing any time soon.... this is some Nihilistic shit' when really it was just setting up the stakes to be as high as possible before our heroes start trying to overcome it all. But we ARE still stuck at the 'everythings at its worst' longer then some fans have been alive. THATS the problem

[@PauLtus_B]

I haven't really seen anyone else argue that the TV-show isn't getting the books right since MrBTongue's "Blame of Thrones" 8 years ago. I'm happy to hear this.

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

I could blame the show for 90% of the issues with the fandom and the series as a whole😂😭

[@PauLtus_B]

@@CompanyOfTheCat I'm not involved in the fandom, I think I bounced off pretty immediately considering how the show and the books are equated. The show did nothing for me besides getting me aware of the books.

[@aidengoodrich5974]

All fiction would be considered nihilistic if left it was left unfinished at its mid story low point.

[@flavius5722]

You are probably the smartest person in this comment section Exactly it dosen't matter what message Martin imagine if the reader never obtain it but instead its left with usless over explicit violent acte who he never anticipats like Euron, Red Wedding, and Ramsay

[@VinnieMF]

Asoiaf is a heroic story at it's core, never understood *book readers* who took it as nihilistic.

[@eszterbalogh5252]

Finally, someone speaks about this. The books are so much better and nuanced.

[@sanjaydodia8959]

Beautifully explained that, why Rhaegar went to fight with Robert when he knew he cannot defeat him. My suggestion for new video is, Rhaegar because he is one the character who written less in books and expressed more on Lore. 😅 He is one my favorite characters 😊

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

I have a Rhaegar video on my future plans! Glad you like the video and thanks for watching ☺️

[@RedFloyd469]

I would say that while the last 4 seasons of game of thrones definitely fell in to this trap, the first four didn't, because they (mostly) stuck to the books. I will say ONE thing: "grimdark" is NOT the same as "nihilism", or even "cynicism" (the two latter terms get conflated even worse, nihilism has plenty of philosophical interpretations that are in fact hopeful and joyous. People just need to read more.) Grimdark is nothing but a setting, just like fantasy is. I know SOME people maintain that the latter is a genre. Those people are wrong, and I won't go into further detail. They simply do not understand what a genre is. Grimdark can be fun in it's own way, and is much, much closer to being an aesthetic choice, rather than an overall moral message the audience is supposed to go away with. To me, it's important that ALL stories, unless we're talking about ones that are just fun for fun's sake, should at the very least have moments of gray morality, of cruel and brutal realism. But they should also have moments of genuine heroism, thematic consistency and fundamental satisfaction with character arcs. The best stories know how to balance these things out, not veer inescapably into one direction or the other. It's why I despise, all the more, all simplistic notions of reductivity regarding writing in general that is so popular among tribalistic fanboy/fangirl communities, who for some reason have something to prove with regards to their favorite story or world. As if everything just exists in perpetual competition. Tolkien was never a fan of black and white story telling like both his detractors and misguided glorifiers like to pretend, and Martin was never a fan of meaningless bleakness and existential pessimism. To accuse either writer of these things is not only insulting, it is fundamentally idiotic and ignorant with regards to the art of story-telling, and this widespread tribalistic ideology, very often repeated by cynical, capital-incentivized "journalists" and audiences alike, has a very clear effect on how studios and publishers will approach projects in the future. It doesn't matter to them whether martin is a romantic or a cynic. What matters to them is that the masses think it's the latter, and so they think cynicism is popular and "trendy". And so shows get made to portray that, thinking this is successful, and when that eventually backfires, tribal fan communities will roll their eyes and say "I'm tired of dark fantasy, please give us chivalry again", having missed the point entirely. And then you get the inevitable political conservatives thinking they can use this as more ammunition for their current day propaganda machine, pretending that the REAL problem with story telling is all that "cynicism" apparently spread by the "leftists". This is a horrid little spiral to get into, and it's the job of any intellectually honest person to avoid this type of simplification. Read books, play games, discover what makes stories work. Don't just give in to ideological clichés and pop culture trends.

[@silverprincess2642]

Wanted to share some good news with you! I am getting promoted to 1st Sergeant this friday!!! Anyway, i loved your wolf howl, haha. 😂

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

Congratulations!!! and thanks😂

[@odetothe8]

i personally believe we don’t have to go too far to understand the philosophy of asoif as it is in the most known phrase “valar moghulis” and its reply of “valar dohaeris”. All men must die and the reply is All men must serve. In my opinion (and i even apply this to my own life) is yes, while it’s true we all must die and accepting that as a fact can make us fearless however in our time here, what can we do to serve? This can be serving the realm, serving in doing our part in our own or others destiny/path, serving our communities etc. And that is the balance. Serving our purpose and then heading to the inevitable. There is beauty in this!

[@Rage_WinterchiIl]

when people call asoiaf nihilistic, i just think about the part where jaime is looking in the white book and thinking how he can write whatever he wants....

[@callmev3531]

3:23, 8:33, The issue with nihilism in fiction is that things like "grimdark" storytelling is mostly concerned with making stories bleak and little else of substance. Despair, sorrow, pessimism and cynicism are only one aspect of the discussion around nihilism, the other being making otherwise immaterial concepts, for instance law and virtue, mean something physical through will and power. There are elements of both nihilism and romanticism in this franchise in its focus on both grounding certain fantasy elements in more realistic moral confines as well as it being an epic tale of flawed heroes faced with a cruel dystopian society and trying to find a balance between the order necessary for it to thrive and virtue to make it a good society that values compassion and generosity just as much as honor. Some nihilistic art does examine virtue and order in a similar manner, but make the protection of such concepts being less a matter of hope, love, compassion or wonder at some sense of beauty in the universe deemed as worthy protected despite the chaos and savagery around it, but instead a matter of hatred, rage, spite and vengeance against the chaos, indulging in vice, rejecting love or hope as worthy or sustainable reasons to have purpose, 7:06, which can work if the writers aren't too lazy with their bleak tone and fail to write anything compelling or thought provoking in the interim, instead of using nihilism as a shield from criticism, as there's only so far someone can take that sentiment of nothing mattering without there being consequences for their actions. Game Of Thrones isn't that kind of story even if it can be bleak at times, as even it's maligned show ending still has many of its objectively heroic characters survive at the end and bring an end a proposed better age for the continent, instead of having all of its characters become villainous by the end. It should also be noted that characters within the franchise's continuity often grapple with rigid and simplistic views of heroism and villainy, with characters having to revaluate what it is they value or are willing to accept in themselves and in their society, wether it be Jon Snow realizing the conflicts he's embroiled in a more complicated than he once believed or Jaime Lannister coming to see that allowing himself to be corrupted by shame and scorn doesn't have to mean that he stay that way and not try to be honorable for himself and not glory.

[@CatastrophicDisease]

I think that the television series *is* actually nihilistic, even when it was good in the first seasons. Martin’s books are not though.

[@flavius5722]

Tell me how Fire and Blood is not nihilistic ?

[@Ilargizuri]

Thank you for this Video, I always felt that Martins View on his Story is a less nihilistic and more Hopeful one. But I also feel like some Characters will have a tragic ending and most of the time when I talk to people about my ideas how and why it will end Tragic they say I think so because of the Show. For example, I always thought that Jon is either not dead in the Books or he will be resurrected. The fact is Martin hasn't presented us with a Corpse so far, as long as there is no Corpse there is no death, so there won't be a resurrection needed. And I believe as I do, not because Jon's Story isn't over, all in all, Jon falls into the Rule makes stupid Decisions and pays for it with his potential death, same as Robb and Cat. But every time one of his Siblings thinks of him, Jon presents Home, he is connected to the North and to Winterfell, the Place they left and to which EVERYONE of the Starks Siblings wants to return. Jon is the Brother that every one of them thinks is still alive, he is that Hope for the Siblings and that is for me the reason that they will return to Jon because it would be nihilistic if Jon's Death became wildly known (because some point the new Lord Commander will be announced) and the Siblings would learn about Jon's Death, that would be nihilistic in the Story. This is the reason that I think they won't learn about Jon's Death during the Winds of Winter and the Reason I believe Jon isn't Dead or will be resurrected. And everytime I get the answer: No the Starks are not that important and the Story wouldn't be dark and grim if that was the Reason. He will be resurrected because he is the Special-Chosen-Snowflake-Prophecy-Child of Rhaegar. As if being the Special-Chosen-Snowflake-Child of Rhaegar would fit into a Grim and dark Story. I could bring forward an Example with Daenerys buuutt ... I just got a long and potential aggressive Answer to one of my Comments under a different of your Videos and I would prefer to avoid that. Also I am not sure If I understood that Comment correctly, because as a non-native Speaker sometimes I misunderstand the intentions and tonality of the English language.

[@ScadrianGhostblood]

I think it comes down to our tendency to categorize everything around us even when often the world is more complicated than that. First thing people see when they encounter asoiaf is a dark story set in a dark world where every single fantasy trope is subverted. That is why people think and believe that it's a nihilistic message and a grimdark world where magic has to be fake and every prophecy has to be fabricated. Story will end with everyone dead, because people surviving is an unrealistic trope. To me asoiaf isn't fantasy abolished, but fantasy set in more realistic, dirty world where magic and dragons exist, but are more dangerous and wilder. For example many people believe that Euron is fake, even though George confirmed he was in Valyria, because a dark lord is to unrealistic. To me Euron represents what would happen if a nihilistic person lived in a world were magic is real and fueled by blood sacrifice.

[@ganykaliya7811]

I think it's generational. George is a baby boomer, one of the wealthiest generations in human history who grew up believing that life was just going to keep on getting better. Wheras most of his audience are Millennials and Zoomers who grew up in a post-9/11 and post-2008 great recession world where nothing is guaranteed anymore. You get a college degree, you'd work minimum wage if you're lucky, and even if you do get a good job, you still can't afford a home. For baby boomers like George, there's beauty in the struggle. And yes, I know George had a poverty-stricken childhood, but he got the opportunities to overcome that poverty that most of us could only dream of. For most of us, we have to struggle for the basic things every day and the struggle just seems like it keeps on going, so we don't see any beauty in it.

[@kay7605]

I feel this deeply

[@jennifera.4511]

Tbh I could only fully grasp this aspect of Martin's story when I read Fire and Blood. I can't remember the user rn, but there is a quote that describes it perfectly: the Dance was the story of how a beautiful thing (sunfyre, described as the most beautiful dragon ever seen) and his rider were corrupted by the world. Together, they could have been the most beautiful and glorious thing ever, but in the end they only got to live long enough to enact vengeance against those who wronged them. When it dawned on me that in other words, Aegon was somewhat defeated after overcoming so many trials I broke down in tears lmao I refuse to read "bittersweet stories" since then XD

[@BillyBasd]

The show ruined this with Aegon's characterization in s1 as a gr@pist and watching the child fights. Sad

[@GrinMonister]

Those were in the books (the first alluded to and the second outright stated) ​@@BillyBasd

[@Captain_Insano_nomercy]

​@@GrinMonisterby Mushroom...a black loyalist

[@billychops1280]

GRRM loves to shot on our hopes, which is why even though I wish it were true, I know that Aegon is actually Faegon Blackfyre

[@jonnytorres664]

I love this aspect of A Song of Ice and Fire, because for me, It's what makes it a DEEPLY medieval story not the setting or the dragons, but the core of lost of innocence, the death of "romanticism" and yet its to push past that, to keep dreaming not so "naively" now to understand that you can also grow up, be part of that change, dream of a better world, the rebirth of that romanticism but now better and grounded. To be that is also the significance of Dany's dragons, the rebirth of magic and better times. This want for better times and changes, It's what connects us the most with our medieval past, that same want for a better world, and GRRM puts it so beautifully. EDIT: I also the pattern on how most of the character that die, do so bc they cannot grow or more like refuse to do so, the best example is Ned, that cannot accept that Robert has changed for the worst.

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

I love this comment!

[@blackeyedlily]

I totally agree with the premise of this video. ASOIAF is romantic in the classical sense of that type of story.🐲🔥⚔️🐺

[@rowanjoy419]

Thanks for doing it, in the past year everything I heard was how the world of G RR Martin was awful and how great Tolkien is and I felt uncomfortable because I liked Got more than Lotr but I like both anyway.

[@seto_kaiba_]

That narrative is coming from a vocal minority of Tolkien fans-many of whom are projecting a bunch of political and religious baggage onto their lack of media literacy.

[@LuzikArbuzik77]

Tolkien would weep if he could see what his fans are saying nowadays

[@KaiHung-wv3ul]

And I like LotR more than ASOIAF, but I love both nonetheless.

[@MyCarnageExtreme]

This might sound weird, but I think people fail to realize just how "basic" A Song of Ice and Fire is, of course it does a lot of things in a refreshing way, but still, it's a story that is happening. The TV Show focused a lot on shock value, and therefore people we're led to believe the story was good because of the violence, shocking moments, a show were good has no place and that's like one of the worst takes ever if you read the books. The characters are romantic, they talk about good and bad, they talk about honor, they try their best to be bettee versions of themselfs except when they're an obvious villain (Cersei). Joffrey is an amazing character, but what shade of gray is he? None, he is just despicable and it works. You could argue that he is pure evil. Doesn't sound that complex does it? And guess what, Martin wanted him to be just that, a terrible person. The way Martin talks about Ned's death higlights this as well, killing the parent because the story is about the kid, is a trope and is not new, he just wanted to play with the trope to get a reaction from his readers, which he did 😂 But still, the story always comes first. Jaime losing his hand is so "shocking" in the TV show, but in the book the scene just cuts away, because him losing the hand is not the climax, is just the start of Jaime's arc, again the story coming first. The Red Wedding happens because of cause and consequence, and it's not suppose to be some tragic ending for Robb and Catelyn, still sad, but their deaths in the books conect so much events that move the story foward. Over the wall we literaly have zombies and ice elfs made by an evil god with the sole porpuse of erasing life, pure evil, and IT WORKS! A Song of Ice and Fire is not good because is some "grounded and super dark fantasy", it works because is a good story, and in this story there's room for good, for bad, for romance and tragedy, for color and magic, monsters and magic creatures. It's just good fantasy.

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

Yes, yes and yes! The whole "plot twists everywhere" and "shock for the sake of it" is another big can of worms and I think it's also the source of all evil :P

[@darrenfleming7901]

I think a lot of people conflate grimdark with low fantasy, which is what ASOIAF actually is. Grimdark is dystopian, cynical, nihilistic writing, while low fantasy is a realistic depiction of primitive (usually medieval) societies as they were in real life. Is history nihilistic? Or is it just that people through most of history lived dangerous lives with a short life expectancy? That's how I see ASOIAF, it's a setting that is brutal and dangerous in a realistic way, but it's not any more nihilistic than real life. The lowborn are likely to starve or be sent off to die in some war, and the highborn get killed in court politics, at war, fall off their horse, or catch an illness and die at thirty. That's medieval realism, not grimdark. As for nihilism vs romanticism, I think the genius thing that George manages to capture with ASOIAF is that the real world is neither romantic nor nihilistic, people are. The world does not discriminate or play favourites or give people the outcomes people expect, but people assume radically different outlooks on the world nonetheless. ASOIAF is such a realistic world because it mirrors that. Robb may be a romantic who thinks being just and true to himself will make him a good king, but that doesn't stop him from being betrayed. Jon may be a fundamentally romantic person who wants to unite people and save everyone, but that doesn't stop him from being murdered by cowards. People look at those examples and say it's nihilistic because they got a reality check and their romanticism was revealed as being naive, and yet we get opposite examples too. Tyrion grows more nihilistic every chapter, and yet life keeps giving him another chance to his dismay. The thing about the romanticism of someone like Tolkien is that, at the end of the day, the story and the world will conform to what the reader, the author, and the characters expect. Bravery will be rewarded, cowardice and cruelty will be punished, and good triumphs over evil. The genius of Martin is that he understands that most people, and therefore most characters, are romantics at heart, but also that the world around you doesn't care whether you are a romantic or a nihilist. People with lofty ambitions and strong convictions may lose everything regardless, and people who despair and give up on life may still be swept up and and saved by circumstance. To me that resonates a whole lot more, because the real world doesn't conform to our expectations either, there is no karmic justice, which means that being a true romantic requires you hold fast to your optimistic beliefs despite the fact that the world around you will test those beliefs and try to break them time and time again.

[@mrloadinggame]

Uuuf what a nice video, thanks!! I needed it

[@WriteLikeALegend]

Wonderful well thought out video! As one fairly small KZbin channel to another, good luck!

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

Thank you very much, glad you enjoyed the video, and thanks for watching! Wish you the best with your channel as well 🖤

[@Pentagathusosaurus]

Yes, you have helped to shed light on one more reason why this series is so bloody good. And you have also helped me realise why I hated The Witcher so much, that was a cynical story.

[@mkkm1701]

Thank you for this wonderful and concise essay! You've put my exact thoughts into words! Brava!

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

Glad you liked it and thanks for watching💜

[@mkkm1701]

@@CompanyOfTheCat Big fan! 😀

[@JohnDoe-vy6ju]

The Tortoise And The Hare looks pretty nihilistic too if you stop reading only halfway through. Hare jumps out to a huge early lead, Tortoise is clearly overmatched, there's no hope and no point to going on further. If/when we get the last book, and the tortoises of ASOIAF have mounted their comeback (you know how GRRM feels about tortoises, after all) it will feel quite different. Certain portions of the fan base might even finally recognize Tywin, Walder, and The Boltons for the hares they are [sadly too late for Benioff's and Weiss' edification.]

[@Zombiezay]

What a unique video idea ! Thank you producing this content, asoiaf on KZbin can get quite stale !!

[@Lothiril]

Ultimately, whether these books are dark and depressing or not depends on their ending, and that hasn't been revealed yet. What Martin says is one thing, whether he manages to write it that way - or at all, given his inability to finish his current book - is another. The characters can have hopes and dreams all they want, if in the end it's all for nothing or if they have to give up their morals to achieve their goals, having hopes and dreams and struggling for it won't be enough to save the story from being depressing. Not that I'll stick around to find out. I tried to read the books, but after a while it got too depressing to read because with every turn of the page the characters got more and more miserable and kept getting in worse and worse situations. It made me miserable reading it, it made me not want to turn the page any longer, and at this point I decided that I'm not doing that to myself. Martin hasn't done enough to convince me that there is something worthwhile to look forward to or to hope for - if there is something good waiting at the end, it's still not enough to go through all this misery for it.

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

I disagree that it depends solely on the ending. However bittersweet, melancholic, or even tragic the true ending might be, it will never feel empty. A big part of nihilism is that everything feels pointless and meaningless, but even when characters die, lose, or suffer in the existing books, it never feels pointless or empty to me. It's a different conversation if someone can stomach the heavier chapters in the series, that I totally understand. Some parts are emotionally tough to get through. In any case, thanks for watching and commenting!

[@nont18411]

You are not wrong to feel this way. I feel really off-put by the red wedding, Oberyn’s death and Ramsay assaulting Jeyne Poole as well.

[@makhnovite]

I think Martin's gratuitous focus on sex, food, colours, love and even violence, hate and pain, are meant to make readers appreciate the basic experiences of life which make it worth fighting against death in the first place. The purpose of life is to live, together, and struggle against the forces of pain, oppression, hardship, toil and death.

[@Iridescence93]

I think the problem some people have is that it's really a story about power and how power is best exercised. But how do you conclude a story like that in a satisfying way? There is no one correct answer to the question George poses and he certainly will not go with the fairy tale ending of "the good guys won because they are good" but what will replace it?

[@jjhh320]

If he won't go with that, his only likely option for a "good" ending is to say power corrupts and anyone who goes near it is bad, therefore...there is no solution. Personally, I don't think George has the ability to write about good guys being winners while also making them and their story be compelling and evocative. He's talented, but I don't think that's a concept he can tackle.

[@Iridescence93]

@@jjhh320 He can't because it goes against the whole theme he's been setting up for 5 books that good guys can still be stupid and mishandle power and in the real world they don't just get away with that. You can make a story that's about good triumphing over evil but you have to set that up from the beginning I always figured he'd go with a weird bittersweet ending and maybe what was done in the show is not far off what he's planning but he would execute it better. But it's obvious he is having trouble commiting to a way to finish it. Maybe because he is at heart a romantic who wants a neat heroic ending but has written a story where that doesn't work

[@GiseleofOldValyria]

Very well put! Thank you

[@julianemantovaninovello5660]

brilliant video, as always ❤ i think this interpretation is, besides correct, extremely relevant. to see the world without illusions and rose tinted glasses, and still choose to do good and "fight the good fight"? that's something we all can and kinda should do in our lives. i believe that's also what makes ASOIAF so powerful as a story, and it's somewhat sad that some people don't see it that way :(

[@erenja3ger871]

No disrespect to Tolkien but my God has he been a disaster in some ways in how we view fantasy. The father of western fantasy wrote a story so filled with light that anything else that diminishes light in a story a little bit is deemed grimdark. If Russian novels were written in esoteric worlds i have no doubt they would be called grimdark

[@jules475]

Love these vids

[@Henbot]

Great video

[@JackJanuary]

GRRM’s story, at least as it’s portrayed in GOT, is a story about Nature reasserting herself in the face of destructive anthropocentrism. That’s about as “hopeful” (or depressing, depending on your POV) as the story gets. All hail King Bran the Broken!

[@Mar-ns9nq]

People often think a romantic story must reward good behavior and punish bad behavior...but if we lived in a world like that, where good deeds are always rewarded and evil deeds are always punished, then everyone would be good. It wouldn't cost anything to be good. How much more romantic is it for GRRM to create an unjust world, where good deeds are often punished and evil deeds often rewarded, and people STILL choose to be good?

[@natie3322]

Will we ever know?…But I THOUGHT the ASOIF World was such a broken trap that it requires many great and various sacrifices to destroy and remake it. Dany becoming the new Weirwood Soul, Bran trapped as the Crow Spirit Messenger. Maybe a flood that breaks the Neck and floods most Islands. The destruction of the Lannisters, Greyjoys, Hightowers, Martells, Braavos, the Iron Bank, the Citadel, the Kings Guard, the Faith of the Seven, the Dothraki, Slavers Bay, the Free Cities, Lys, Kings Landing, Old Town, Volantis etc etc etc. leaving just a seed of the best of humanity to start over from scratch, with perhaps more knowledge of what would be needed not to make the same mistakes. Maybe two new Ruling houses of the North and South Lands. The Stargaryeans and the Staratheons… Jon could be the new father of a large family, after having to marry Sansa. Arya could end up married to Gendry and forging the new South Kingdom.

[@janhommer]

I'm defending the ending, but I never said it was nihilistic, nor do I agree with those who call it that, whether as a negative or a positive thing; the quote is fitting insofar as it's, like GRRM promised, a bittersweet (!) ending as opposed to a "happy" one in that classic Hollywood sense. The irony is that what many people who claim the ending wasn't happy enough would have preferred, would actually have been LESS happy, if you really think about it. The way GRRM challenges us is by having us root for characters we arguably shouldn't be rooting for. Daenerys is the most exteme example for that, of course, but there's also people like Robb, for example who had thousands of people suffer and die for reasons that, while kinda understandable from his perspective, didn't help the common people much (who one keeps forgetting about till the story occasionally reminds us that we ourselves would be more like them if we were living it that world). And for those people the ending is pretty much the best thing anyone could hope for a world like that = the beginning of another relatively peaceful period) just because Bran is not as spectacular as a character doesn't mean he's not a better king (who, at the end of the day, has more of a symbolic function, anyway, I mean,it's not like that one person can actually do all that much by himself, is it?) than even Jon, because (!) he's not a fighter (and because he's got a great small council people calling the ending depeessing or whatever also keep conveniently forgetting about...) I"m happy to elaborare further, if anyone insists...

[@thewhitewolf6715]

Too many people have been influenced by the show. So they think the point of ASOIAF is to be a gritty and nihilistic bleak story with a terrible miserable ending and where heroes like Dany are hidden villains who can’t change their fates because of their “heritage”. That is not what ASOIAF is about. Yes there is a lot of death. A lot of betrayal. A lot of misery. But there is also hope. Unity. George said his heroes are the dreamers. The ones who try to make the world a better place. Like Dany. This is why I am certain Dany is not gonna have that disgusting ending. And Arya is not going to become a cold hearted loner assassin. Also George wants a bittersweet ending and people misinterpret that. They think it means a miserable ending like the show. No. It can mean a happy ending but not perfectly happy. I’m sick of seeing people say that Dany living would be “too Disney” an ending. Dany living would be a good ending and can easily fit into the bittersweet

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

Perfectly said💖 Thanks for watching!!

[@thewhitewolf6715]

@@CompanyOfTheCatThank you for making this amazing video (only hard part was seeing that awful scene with Dany and Jon. Where… sigh… that scene still really bothers me even five years later). I hope you’re right about the key five. All I need for the ending to be perfect is Dany and Arya and Jon to survive and be well at the end. But… I really want Dany to be Queen. Still… I can perfectly settle for her just being alive and well

[@flavius5722]

George wants no ending , he had get over his nihilistic personality and now he is enjoying life

[@thewhitewolf6715]

The show just became completely pessimistic and made a point of calling people who wanted to change the world “stupid” and in the case of Dany “mad” (sexism). And they justify their poor writing and putting in those stupid twists and shock value as “that’s how the show’s always been”. And that if we hated it “we weren’t paying attention”. It’s asinine. And too many people think the books are like the show when that is not the case. I remember Bran’s actor saying “inevitably GoT will tear us apart again” as if unity means nothing. But unity has always been a consistent and important theme of the books.

[@iamkrohn]

Thank you for recognizing that Grim Dark fiction is ultimately built on hope. As a Fan of ASOIAF, tMBoTF, and the Black Company I often get angry when people fail to recognize that

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

The conversation around Grimdark is very interesting. During the research for this video, I realized that it’s a rather vague term. Every single person seems to have their own definition, and it’s applied to many works that have contradictory themes.

[@iamkrohn]

@@CompanyOfTheCat I would encourage you to read Malazan Book of the Fallen, but yes Grim Dark as a Genre is still very much in its teenage years

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

They are on my list

[@seiretzym]

​@@CompanyOfTheCatyou addressed that with admirable diplomacy

[@lyarrastark6254]

I like your take on ASoIaF, thank you. Subscribed.

[@seiretzym]

I agree with you that ASOIAF is absolutely not Grimdark and the fact that the TV series is conflated with the books is really frustrating. even scenes and events that are generally the same between both are often presented with cynicism and shock value in the show, but heart and a moral backbone in the books. one of the early examples is Dany's wedding night, where in the books she has explicit agency.

[@HdGKP]

Thank you and well said! The phenomenon is broader than ASOIAF / GOT, unfortunately. This mythos - that to be truly wise / knowledgeable equates to being dead inside, because if you are smart enough, you have to become jaded, bcs god is dead, our whole world is but a speck in a humongous universe, life has no meaning, and nothing can be truly known - is truly annoying. That is not wisdom. That is teen goth. And sure, very learned people can go through that depressing vale, but truly wise people kept walking to the other side, and did not set camp at Brooding-Town. Yeah, whatever higher powers there might be, they won't change your life. Yeah, existence is so huge, on has to adjust one's ego and the scope that your deeds and/or pains could ever amount to. Yeah, there probable is no rational, intentional purpose to us being here and no fate/destiny to guide us through or for us to fulfil. Yeah, what we think we know is not solid, keeps changing and as individuals we will not get any satisfying answers before we die. All of those are not the easiest pills to swallow. But so what? We don't need gods, we are not alone, we are helped and we help out. It's society. We are each other's gods. Which kind, is up to us. Just because we are aware that there are worlds out there, doesn't mean we have to obsess about it and cannot still focus on the scope that we can act upon. Just because there is no preordained meaning to our existence, doesn't mean that we cannot forge our own meaning or have to be crushed by the pain of having to discover/find/invest/create ourselves. And just because what we think we know is probably partially wrong and biased and severely incomplete, it does not mean it is worthless and meaningless. After all knowledge is always worthless and meaningless if it is just acquired, memorised, recited without it touching and changing either someone's inner world or the world we share. Life being meaningful or meaningless is a decision we each make. The beauty and worth of finding meaning in one's life lies precisely in it not being a fundamental law of physics, but a praxis that we chose to uphold every day we live. So no, your brooding despair is not a sign that you reached farther than a child or a fool. It's a sign that you faltered half-way and did not make to the other side. If had, you would realise that the journey may not be a circle, but it certainly is a spiral and that wise and knowledgable people have way more in common with children and fools (for they feel and care deeply and try hard), than with seriously despairing brooders (who think those who feel and care and try are idiots). Yes, wise people usually have a serenity to them, but that is not from not caring or not trying, but with being at peace with often failing. Brooding, better-than-thou smart-asses think that their apathy and cool blazé style is wise serenity, but it is just anaesthesia. Dude, you are not woke, you are terrified. Keep walking, you will end up dying one way or another, so at least try while you can.

[@PauLtus_B]

This is probably why I've been enjoying the books and the show never worked for me. I tend to enjoy stories that go dark but nihilistic stories are pretty pointless to me. When the showrunners basically said to be anti-themes I decided I did not care to give the show another try.

[@michailboev]

Hi! Thank you for your video! Was that your native language you spoke at 5:37? What language was that?

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

Yes, it is, I'm Greek. Glad you like it and thanks for watching 💗

[@michailboev]

@ a beautiful language indeed!

[@transquelaag]

FINALLY SOMEONE SAID IT

[@doctordungus7774]

I have read through ASOIAF twice now and I definitely think of it as a pessimistic or nihilistic story. There are almost no good characters, with characters like Davos and Barriston and the Starks being exceptions to the vast majority of characters, and this is just a supremely nihilistic view of human beings. In my life, I would say 95-99% of the people I have met are fundamentally good, whereas that number in ASOIAF is more like 25% at best. I’ve never watched the show.

[@PhilipDavis-b4h]

Absolutely love your accent!

[@MykeTheCreator]

Love this video! Completely agree that GRRM is a romantic, and if anything I have his worldview as quite Jungian - that to know yourself completely you have to incorporate your dark side, or ‘shadow’. I think that’s what ice and fire represent, and it’s very far from nihilism.

[@AesirUnlimited]

Does it really matter though? The books very likely won’t get finished. Their message won’t particularly matter if they have no ending.

[@wisdommanari6701]

THANK YOU

[@galatea2801]

i didn't know you were greek! do you by any chance have videos in greek/write asoiaf analyses in greek? σπουδάζω ελληνικά και θα ηθελα να διαβάσω για το asoiaf στα ελληνικά

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

I’m considering doing my Q&A in Greek with subtitles. I had planned a video about ASOIAF in Greek, but it would be for a very bad reason: the translations are horrendous! 😂😭

[@Easttowest45]

We don't yet know if it is a nihilistic or hopeful story. It all depends on the nature of the ending. At this rate, we may never know.

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

As I mentioned in a different comment, I disagree that it depends solely on the ending. However bittersweet, melancholic, or even tragic the true ending might be, it will never feel empty. A big part of nihilism is that everything feels pointless and meaningless, but even when characters die, lose, fight against impossible odds, or suffer in the books we have so far, it never feels pointless or empty to me. I also said that I don’t think we’re going to get a 100% happy ending (when and if we get it). Based on GRRM’s interviews and how he tends to write (not just in ASOIAF), we probably won’t get a perfect one. But from all the info we have, I do believe we’ll get a hopeful one, at least in some way. Thanks for watching and commenting!

[@mildlyobesegoat7262]

I genuinely hate early GoT because of this. Haven’t watched the video at the time of writing this comment so bear with me here: How is the message anything other than "nothing matters"? Robb‘s story was my favorite part of the show and it amounted to absolutely nothing. His quest to avenge his father was never fulfilled, his entire family was slaughtered in a dead end through a war crime and the only way his death is ever brought up again is in the short sequence of Arya assassinating house Frey in season 7 I think. We spent two seasons building up this character and his story only for Martin to pull a "bet you didn’t see that coming👋🤪🤚". And just because it was foreshadowed doesn’t mean it’s a good ending to his arc😂 Ned was killed off for being too honorable, and his son was killed for being slightly less honorable. What is it, Martin? What doesn’t get you killed outside of being a maniac sadistic p3dophile pos? Killing off your protagonists left and right doesn’t make you a good writer, and it loses its effect on the second time already. Ned had me shocked, Rob had me pissed, and everything after felt like a comedian overdoing a joke. I feel like people don’t understand that a story needs its protagonists alive to exist in the first place, them making it to the end of the story isn’t plot armor, it’s the reason why a story went on for that long to begin with. Edit after watching the video: Genuinely laughable. I didn’t read the books, but I know very well that the first seasons were much more faithful to the source material than the later ones. It’s argued that Martin is a romanticist while D&D aren’t, but I honestly couldn’t disagree harder. The first time in the entire show that the heroes we were rooting for *didn’t* get killed off for being noble, the first time that being "good" actually mattered was in season 6 during the Battle of the Bastards. I just *know* that if Martin had written that battle, Jon would’ve gotten trampled while facing Ramsay‘s cavalry. It’s genuinely one of the only romantic moments I can even think of, besides maybe the brothers of the Night‘s Watch holding the gate against the giant, but even in that instance, George just had to add that their sacrifices to protect the wall were meaningless as well because - plot twist!😼 - Mance didn’t *really* try to take the wall, he was just testing their defenses for some funny reason. This video really has it twisted with who’s being edgy for no reason when writing ASOIAF. I can’t speak about the books, obviously, but that’s because I refuse to read a forever unfinished and unfocused train wreck of a story with literal child grape scenes that even goes as far as to make the predator in question a likeable character we‘re supposed to root for (Khal Drogo)

[@mildlyobesegoat7262]

edit to my edit: GRRM can’t even write Battle of the Bastards because he couldn’t keep himself from killing Jon Snow as well 😂 Oh well …

[@conniesuper9892]

If all men must die,does Jon even get resurrected,or will he be left for dead,like Ned?

[@Blood_Video_company]

The show tried way too hard to be 40k, for as much as 40k may be the definition of soy, it is a definition of nihilist,grimdark to a t

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

If I'm not wrong, Grimdark became popular as a term because of 40k. It's the definition of the subgenre.

[@Blood_Video_company]

@@CompanyOfTheCat yeah, honestly i do think the culture is like in need of a real like nihilistic story that isn't as high magic as 40k , or WH fantasy, or even asoiaf. this is the thing i think kinda that i have taken on why the show ate so much attention what the culture been feeling.

[@lorddervish212quinterosara6]

Game of Thrones adaptation and its consequences have been a disaster for the public perception on the world of Ice and Fire and the historical dramas that came afterwards. Everything is about sex, leather, filth and murder.

[@seto_kaiba_]

The books are even more like that

[@nont18411]

I mean, the show is a toned down version of what happened in the books

[@vaijim5962]

2:52 Rage! Rage against the dying of the light!

[@niofalpha]

Overall I agree but I think a key point you failed to acknowledge is the difference between "Grimdark" and edgy. It's the kinda thing that's difficult to differentiate, but I don't think the show was even trying to make an argument about the futility of life or whatever. As you point out, I think it was just going for cheap shock value. Something the books do too (it was her 14th nameday...) just not close to as edgy.

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

Grimdark and edgy is definitely not the same, but GoT tried to do both imo. And just didn't succeed.

[@KarlKarsnark]

χαίρε! All "High Fantasy" is Romantic at its core. The bigger and more sweeping the story and emotions the better. That's precisely why we read it. Despite its lack of "realism", it allows us to express stories and emotions that are simply "too large" for "normal" books. Big feelings need big stories. Nihilism never makes for good art. It's just plain boring and low effort at the end of the day. Anyone can point out the obviously wrong parts of the world, but it takes a "hero" to try to fix them. Even after Pandora opened the jar, Hope remained at the very bottom. Nothing is truly "100%" evil, awful and "hopeless", unless we allow it to be. Being hopeful never guarantees success, but Nihilism will always ensure failure. There's no greater "Heroic, Pagan" sentiment than to (Rage Against) "The Dying of the Light". Better to die on you own terms than to live in servitude, shame and regret. "A coward dies a thousand deaths, a Hero but one." Thanks for all the awesome vidyas. When are you doing to do a Livestream of your own? I think it's long over due, don't you? :) Cheers!

[@Spectacurl]

Is Attack on Titans grimdark?

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

I haven’t seen Attack on Titan, so I can’t answer that. I’m only familiar with it by name.

[@ashmein6021]

I felt that GRRM and to extension of D&D were very successful in making the "realism" part that people forgot this is fantasy. So in a way, GoT did attract fans that hates fantasy elements. For example, i've seen a lot of people "liked" that Dany would turn into villain coz they do not want to believe in the prophesized hero. I mean it's legitimate want to have some ficition that tackles how prophecies essentially is self-prophecy, or yknow how it similar to the "divine rights of the kings". That we ought to criticize royalty/imperialism coz for years, they have been portrayed as 'heroes'. That we could have some ficition that would criticize royalty/imperialism when we thought they were heroes. They badly wanted Dany to be the subversion of white savior trope, or to be like similar to Dune's Paul Atreides but as you said, i definitely believed that GRRM is a romantic at heart. i also think it's unfair to project anarchism/revolutionary because this is fantasy and not everything have to be literal. Sure I think there's always going to be parallel with real world and something to criticize it or at least acknowledge (hence Dany being interpreted as white savior trope) but to me personally I read it as story where we continuously fight amongst ourselves when there's bigger threat. It felt very anti-war to me rather than bunch of imperialist/ people in ultimate power caught in power struggle.

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

I completely agree with you, disdain for the fantasy elements plays a big part in how people perceive the series, and it’s at the core of many of the issues. But I don’t think it’s realism that’s to blame. The main reason is that most people were introduced to ASoIaF through the show, which stripped away almost all the magical elements beyond the bare essentials. If D&D could’ve cut even those, they probably would have. Prophetic dreams (which are everywhere in the books and hint at major events like the hatching of the eggs and the Red Wedding), dragon dreams, wolf dreams, and other magical aspects were almost entirely dismissed. This led to the misconception that ASoIaF is "low fantasy" and that GRRM’s work is an Anti-Tolkien book series, something GRRM himself has said isn’t the case. The novels are deeply rooted in fantasy, with magic at the core of the story, shaping character arcs and plotlines. By sidelining these elements, the show attracted viewers who were drawn more to the gritty realism and less to the fantastical aspects that actually define the story. It’s kind of the opposite, people who don't like fantasy got invested because the fantasy was first removed. This is why many were so quick to accept things like Dany’s turn as subversion (as if “woman goes mad” is subversive) rather than seeing the more complex setup of the books'. The fantasy was sidelined in favor of shock value, leading to an interpretation that often missed the point of the source material. The "white savior" trope is another thing introduced by the series because, in the novels, slavery is not race-based. It's important to understand the setting, which GRRM has stated is inspired by the Eastern Mediterranean and the old world, not the trans-Atlantic slave trade. Dany herself was a "gift" to Drogo and even wore a collar when she met him, highlighting her own situation. She was not an outside savior. The happy ending is not the issue. The series gave a happy ending to almost everyone but also an empty one, which is what nihilism is about, emptiness and meaninglessness. Brienne crying for Jaime, Sansa thanking her abusers, Bran being reduced to an empty plot device, and people mocking democracy (when even the Ironborn are better in the books, the sis have some sort of proto-democracy, which makes the end even more stupid) were all so anticlimactic and empty. The issues were many and everywhere. That being said, thanks for watching and for sharing your thoughts!!

[@stalwartteakettlepotato9879]

GRRMs biggest problem comes to two things. He is a hippy liberal and he is spiteful. He not only set out to write a story with his values, that would be one thing. He set out to write a story that deconstructs older values and themes typical of such stories and also shows his values. He got tangeld up in it all ending up with a story that isn't entirely coherent in its message. Unless you spend a decade decoding it and reading into layers of symbolism.

[@seto_kaiba_]

Yeah you are exactly the type of person who this video is trying to explain Martin’s actual story too. You are way too caught up in societal narratives of left vs right to appreciate it. I see this narrative a lot lately-particularly in conjunction with using Tolkien as a foil

[@AS-qy1zl]

The show is meaningless and maybe some people see the books that way, but they’re idiots.

[@flavius5722]

The idiots are the one who still think Martin will finish the books

[@AS-qy1zl]

Retarded non sequitur. There are people who fixate on aspects of the story and who project a whiner’s mentality onto the world, ignoring or forgetting the parts that don’t align with it. Zero correlation with speculating on whether Gurm will complete the books or not.

[@justarandomgirlvx3578]

@@flavius5722 I find it idiotic that people like you make it their obsession that he might never finish it and cannot for the life of them stop letting everyone know how they think he won't ever publish an ending. Seriously, many people in that fandom know this already and many accept that, including me. That doesn't mean theorising and analysing characters in this story is not fun. It is a nice exercise for people who love literary analysis and there are other famous unfinished works still talked about today after the author's passing. There is absolutely no need to shove your bitterness into people's faces with the intention to suffocate all discourse surrounding asoiaf. These comments are not productive at all. There are arcs that are finished already and have thematic significance and roundness on their own and that are worth it to be talked about.

[@flavius5722]

@@justarandomgirlvx3578 My pal ,I had respond to guy who named peoples who consider the book nihilistic idiots, how is this productive And the majority of people like you dont "theorise characters " you just scream at anybody who had a different opinion than you about a character ,you are already so sure about how is gonna end that you can't tolerate others

[@justarandomgirlvx3578]

@@flavius5722This wasn't the only comment from you regarding this in this comment section. Regardless, it had nothing to do with what you responded to, which is why i responded to you critically. Me being critical of your comment doesn't mean I agree with who you responded to entirely. I don't have a set ending in mind for characters actually, what we can all be sure of though is what George said about it. As soon as people invalidate the author's own VERBALISED intention for his ending, that's where the opinions are idiotic. We already know Asoiaf is not written with a nihilist philosophy in mind because George himself said so. When people don't know what he said about it and think ASOIAF is nihilist, that's fine, but says more about their own philosophical beliefs, but nothing about George's philosophy and intentions. For example: Ned is a good man, he tries to good but gets himself killed in the attempt. Some people say this is nihilist because him dying means he failed and therefore doing good actions were useless. However that is their own opinion. They believe when you fail doing good, it means doing good does not matter. George himself however already said he admires and thinks it matters when people do good in the face of of danger, whatever the outcome may be, he admires those "who fight the good fight". If people can’t admire a character for soing good things because they failed, that's them taking a nihilist approach on the series and life, but not George taking a nihilist approach in his writing. Hope that clears some things!

[@lipingrahman6648]

I remember reading the books before the show started. As I read the less I liked them. They seamed to me and still do as a pale shadow of the lord of the rings. And the show solidified for me the fact Americans don’t do original fantasy that well. Americans are better at science fiction.

[@Анастасия-ы6с9ж]

Totally agree!!!!!!

[@Ζήνων-ζ1ι]

Your argument is moot. Why? We dont know the ending. We have no idea what THE POINT of this epic actually is because we haven't reached it yet and probably never will. You can point to specific stances in the released books to "prove" your claim, that it is not nihilistic and so what, but they are useless without the conclusion to each arc and storyline. We are almost blind when it comes to the "message" of ASOIAF and are left with our own interpretations of it. By everything we know of Martin and his personal philosophy there is very few hope of this series having any real meaning beyond his post modern and atheist meaninglessness. Post modern fantasy can be done well, as something like The Witcher proves, but they do it with a understanding of the human experience, of love and at least the acknowledgement that THERE ACTUALLY IS some meaning and truth out there. They almost always contradict themselves. We don't know if Martin is capable of that. I recommend Magne Mirare and The Distributist videos on this topic, they nailed it.

[@TheDasilva1]

I digress the point is moot. Despite not knowing the ending, we see hints (yes, I know you will prattle on about the books not being finished, but tbh ic) is the point of resilience and upholding virtues like honor, love and family above greed and total disregard of human life. The Frey are being hunted throughout the Riverland, a consequence of their treachery. The Boltons are besieged and tearing each other apart. Cersei was stripped and forced to walk naked in front of King's Landing. She is not unbeatable "evil" force of nature, but a mentally unwell woman who is continously being pushed over the edge. The Lannisters are falling apart as well. While I agree we don't know exactly how Martin plans to end his books, you can see glimpses of this in the five books available and, heck, even in the Dunk & Egg saga.

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

I get where you're coming from, but I don’t think the argument is moot just because we don’t know the ending yet. The books we do have already give us a lot of insight into the themes and the emotional core of the story. Even without the final resolution, the way GRRM writes his characters and their struggles shows that everything has meaning, whether they win or lose, there’s always purpose behind it. As I said before: 'These scenes (the ones I read and many others) are as warm as they are sad, anything but grimdark. The deep emotional longing in A Song of Ice and Fire is what makes it so special. Even though the series is filled with darkness, violence, and tragedy, it never feels hollow or meaningless like the show sometimes did. George has a unique way of writing emotions-there’s always a sense of meaning, hope, resilience, or warmth, even in the most heartbreaking moments. Every victory, no matter how small, matters. And even when things go very wrong, the reader still feels that those moments have meaning. This is why fans stay emotionally invested in the characters’ struggles, because they feel real and relatable. This is the opposite of nihilism.' Nihilism isn’t just about things going badly, it’s about everything feeling pointless. But even when everything goes to sh!t, for example characters like Ned or Robb dying, it doesn’t feel pointless. There’s a reason behind those events, and they’re not random, because the world is just like that. Sure, we might never know the exact ending, but based on everything we’ve seen so far and what George has said in interviews, I’m confident that even if the ending is bittersweet or tragic, it’ll still carry the same emotional depth. It won’t feel empty or pointless. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[@Sermetimusic19]

Θα μου πεις ποιος σε ρώτησε λέει 😂

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

E αφού δε με ρώτησε κανείς😂