The Bronze Age Collapse - Systems Collapse - Extra History - Part 4

[@extrahistory]

It started with famine... and ended with four great civilizations' utter destruction. What can we learn from the Bronze Age Collapse? Support us on Patreon for early access, topic suggestions, and more! www.patreon.com/ExtraCredits

[@Grand1Admiral]

Extra Credits Address the concerns of the citizenry promptly and in well measured steps. Be willing to break the mold of your society or the standard way of thinking. Be willing to use every tool in your tool box (citizens with different ideas and ways of approaching the problem than you or current leadership, upward mobility, capitalism, speed of communication, etc.)

[@basilofgoodwishes4138]

Extra Credits Just use Far more abundant ressources, create more supplies, study more and try to improve on everything, then You can create a stable society. Our Modern World is far less Fragile and is actually not declining, but rising due to the internet and all of that, I doubt that there will another collapse in the next year's.

[@IGetMyOpinionsFromTV]

Great series, really fascinating. I would be curious to read some of the books mentioned on the collapse of societies and empires, and the one about systems collapse. Can you post some of the titles?

[@Brakvash]

Fear the Long Summer?

[@karnoq]

I second the request for the titles of any books used for researching this series

[@alliecat84]

“Weapons are buried. Plans are made to collect these weapon caches, but no one will ever return.” This was truly a chilling phrase.

[@professionalpurpleposter4957]

You must scare easy.

[@JohnNotAMurderer]

Why are there so few replies after 1 year and 391 likes

[@hellomoto2084]

​@@JohnNotAMurderer i gave 450th like

[@JohnNotAMurderer]

@@hellomoto2084 ok

[@jerryzhang5032]

replication reply

[@ObligedUniform]

"For over a thousand years the chariots were the backbone of peace and order in the kingdom. Before the dark times. Before the sea people"

[@oggolbat7932]

Is this from a series?

[@depressedninjaturtle1813]

@@GreenKnight343 hahahaha

[@samvortex2802]

@@GreenKnight343 and years with “generations”

[@samvortex2802]

@@GreenKnight343 lol didn’t even see kingdom, you are right

[@stephenlyon1358]

There was a massive destruction that drove people from europe into the Mediterranean.

[@sfsfinancing3299]

BTW - Why did the Egyptian Empire end???? ANS: All pyramid schemes end badly.

[@malgold88]

Who dabbled in pyramid schemes? Walpole

[@stevenchoza6391]

ANS?

[@malgold88]

@@stevenchoza6391 answer

[@stevenchoza6391]

malgold88 Oh. Thanks.

[@ptripathy]

no

[@justsomerobloxvids1791]

"For today, in this modern era, where we can probably weather most any crisis, if we fool ourselves into believing that we're immune, we may go on to create so many crises of our own that we may bring about the collapse of our own systems." it's been a month and four days since the capitol riot in america and more than a year after the coronavirus was first discovered as of writing. this quote aged EXCEEDINGLY well.

[@kody1654]

Trying to stay optimistic, but to many patterns are appearing.......getting worried.

[@sanhcman666]

That was fun to watch for many anti western people. I think the "deliveries of democracy" (bombardment, coups supported by cia, etc) is beginning to paying back in USA soil.

[@boluthegrafter]

i second that

[@danielzhang1916]

I don't think that we're immune, but modern society is able to absorb much more shocks than centuries ago, we live in an interconnected world now, it's no longer just a few kingdoms, I think most countries have learned from the coronavirus, Asia has dealt with outbreaks for years already, next time will be more prepared

[@draexian530]

History has a way of repeating itself, I suppose. At least I am aware of the precedent. The people of the bronze age would rightly have cursed the gods for the apocalypse of their world. I get to curse man instead.

[@JacobProbasco]

"We have to handle these incredible cultures that we've built thoughtfully, and respect" Well said.

[@herriuslecrabequebecois8346]

This is the perfect background story for a post-apocalypse adventure set in the bronze age!

[@prestonh.2771]

Age of Decadence sort of has something like that, but with a dark fantasy bent. More along the lines of a post apocalyptic fall of Rome though, if Rome literally had demi-gods fighting alongside them lol

[@sammym2511]

*M A K E I T N O W*

[@0ld_Scratch]

Herrius Le Crabe Québécois Between the time when the oceans drank Atlantis, and the rise of the sons of Aryas, there was an age undreamed of. And unto this, Conan, destined to wear the jeweled crown of Aquilonia upon a troubled brow. It is I, his chronicler, who alone can tell thee of his saga. Let me tell you of the days of high adventure!

[@jeremykiahsobyk102]

You ARE in the bronze age post apocalypse...

[@boomertunes4410]

Fallout: bronze collapse

[@SamDorios]

I'm a "Systems and Complexity Associate" (yes, this is a real job title) for a large non-profit organization. My background is in Systems Thinking and Practices. Specifically, I create systems maps for the purposes of informing social-change strategies. You have no idea how excited I am to stumble across a video talking about systems thinking and theory naturally (usually you'd have to go out of your way to search for and find one). Systems thinking is so important and relevant, yet it's still mostly unknown. So thank you for showing interest in the topic and highlighting it in your video! :)

[@rngwrldngnr]

SamDorios Any chance you can recommend a good, accessible introduction for laypeople? I think Systems thinking is an important skill for everyone to learn.

[@SamDorios]

Yeah, that's the thing. We've not done a good job of providing good, accessible materials for newcomers. We definitely need to get on that. I’m not sure how "accessible" it is, but a good place to start might be TheSystemsThinker. It's a website featuring some good articles on the subject. Might want to begin with the readings under their "How-To Guides." Good authors on the subject are Donella Meadows, Daniel Kim, Peter Senge, and David Stroh. A colleague of mine, Robert Ricigliano also has a great book (Making Peace Last), and a course about Systems Practice on plusacumen. But that's not for laypeople; it's for practitioners... Hope that's somewhat helpful. Wish I had a better answer.

[@SamDorios]

Although, to be fair, The Waters Foundation works with schools to introduce systems thinking to teachers and students. I helped run a workshop for their Milwaukee Conference, so got the chance to talk shop with them. Their work seemed great for students, but that also means it was a bit watered down (pun not intended). Though I do love that they’re introducing it at all! Also, this is gonna be an off-the-wall recommendation, but if you do a google search for Nicky Case you'll come across her page. She does some small flash games/articles that are influenced by systems thinking. They're very neat. I particularly like the "Parable of the Polygon" which is about migration/segregation.

[@rngwrldngnr]

SamDorios thanks a bunch!

[@Snowy123]

SamDorios I would love to have more talks with you about systems and complexity

[@hansheden]

Quote from "Red Dwarf": ""They say that every society is only three meals away from revolution. Deprive a culture of food for three meals, and you'll have an anarchy. And it's true, isn't it? You haven't eaten for a couple of days, and you've turned into a barbarian." Kind of sums it up.

[@jjmmccnerd1691]

Unless your Soviet Russia. Then you can go more without a revolution

[@iamnotpasta4408]

JjMmccnerd **you're :3

[@---uf2zl]

Mao be like: You can't have a revolution if you're already in a revolution *taps head

[@jjc5475]

every society is maybe 3 meals from revolution. but modern western societies are way less vulnerable to hunger. but Venezuela is an nice example. ppl gotta eat. (but countries like iraq are in heavy war but still most of the population can eat.)

[@Beowulf_DW]

There was a study immediately after WW2 meant to examine the effect of malnutrition on the human psyche. This was to get an idea of what was going on with the people of Europe, who were going through a bit of a food shortage, due to most of the continent getting chewed up by a war (again). The subjects were Quakers, conscientious objectors who welcomed the opportunity to serve their country in a non-violent way, and also viewed it as an opportunity to deepen their faith through what could be viewed as fasting. What they got instead was a crisis of faith. The study found that humans become temperamental and less capable of reason and logic. In short, when we're hungry, we revert to an almost primal state. The young Quaker men that participated in the study were shaken to their cores to learn that the only thing between the moral and polite people they'd been raised as, and a mean brute, was a few good meals.

[@SC-zq6cu]

Ooooh...the end message of this series aged like the finest of wines.

[@AK-dx8kf]

Some dude a few years back: "new deseases? No problem" Corona: allow me to introduce myself

[@totheknee]

"Hold my beer..."

[@squamish4244]

And so the kingdom of Gondor sank into ruin. The line of kings failed. The white tree withered. The rule of Gondor was given over to lesser men.

[@matthiaskonold6976]

@Garrett Strauser WTF du nazi ?!

[@Alusnovalotus]

Sounds like the US now.

[@justsomerobloxvids1791]

@@Alusnovalotus yee fucking *H A W* in reality i hate my own country right now

[@Septimus_ii]

I think Gondor was much more based on the gradual crumbling of the Roman Empire than the sudden collapse of the Bronze Age Collapse

[@benjamingrezik373]

@@Septimus_ii The fall of the northern kingdom of arnor and its successors was a lot more like the bronze age collapse. Tolkien certainly knew all we know about the subject

[@Anglomachian]

In the nineties, when I was a kid, I noticed a lot of the sci-fi shows that I enjoyed had minor storylines or single episodes devoted to warning us about complex societies. Usually they took it from the angle of losing the "self", like being part of a complex society requires the sacrifice of one's personal identity or freedoms. And to some degree they're right, you do give up some freedoms to be part of a system. But the people who had these ideas in these shows almost always took the extreme route of going completely in the opposite direction, becoming amish-like refugees from the space-faring or interdimensional-exploring civilisations they hailed from, citing that such advancement invited its own end, and that simplicity was the way by which one avoided whole-sale collapses. With no system, no collapse. But even as a child, I remember thinking "Yeah, but then you have no police or an army to defend your way of life. You have no hospitals with advanced medical care to treat simple diseases or injuries. You don't have robust farming techniques that almost guarantee plentiful food." Of course, I didn't put it quite like that when I was 7, but it was the same idea in principle. All these "going back to a simpler time" episodes almost never showed these people being overrun by opposing armies, or hit by devastating curable diseases, or starving when their finite crop system bugged out for a week. They always just showed the philosophical inadequacies, or more often put them in an agreeable light, as though becoming agrarian hermit societies was actually the right way to go.

[@garyindiana2127]

polyculture

[@D2attemp]

That’s what they did with the forerunners in the Halo Franchise

[@yesyesyesyes1600]

@john smith *whistling the tune of the MAGNIFICENT 7*

[@totheknee]

The great thing is that, as long as complex societies exist, the people who want simplicity can just go off on their own and do whatever they want in the middle of nowhere. The opposite isn't true if the simpletons were to drag us back to the dark ages.

[@gc6096]

I believe the story of Atlantis was an early version of these stories.

[@extrahistory]

Notice! This episode concludes the Bronze Age Collapse series, and after this Extra History will be taking a one week break. We'll be back with a few one-off episodes starting on July 29!

[@ianscott9596]

Extra Credits have a great break!

[@thegreatwalrus6574]

What series is next?

[@nomi-non]

Extra Credits Could you maybe mention some of the books on societal collapse if possible?

[@andersonandrighi4539]

Will there be a Lies episode about this particular series?

[@Acularius]

This was a fantastic ending!

[@calebmarsh1778]

Am I alone in saying that this series gave me a new fear in life? The fact that these thriving societies collapsed in the space of just 40-50 years is horrifying and gives me anxiety.

[@felixschrider9037]

Well it wouldn't be the first or last time. modern societies hardly collapse to the same extent that they did in the past, simply because technology and interconnection make it difficult for a society to remain collapsed. think Somalia, Liberia, Sudan, Myanmar and a few others recently have gone through the throws of collapse and civil war, but for the most part have reasserted themselves as individual states and so on. now 300 years ago an unstable society would just be consumed by its neighbor, but as that rarely happens any more through international pressures, societies have a greater chance of coming back and can do it much faster than the Egyptians and Greeks did so many millennia ago.

[@naxithxrazni5661]

I have no doubt at all that our current societies will collapse as well. My number one reason for that is global warming, but an asteroid or a solar flare resetting us all are all likely. To me it's not a matter of if, but when. Will it be in next 10 years? 100? 1000?

[@AleksandrStrizhevskiy]

All it would take is one nuclear war. We would collapse in 5 years. Our societies are now fully dependent on digital technology, if supply routes are disrupted new devices can’t be made, the entire modern system would implode very quickly.

[@EMNstar]

Get your moats dug

[@vanyadolly]

@@felixschrider9037 And imagine that some people are against globalism. It's a matter of survival and better living conditions for our entire species.

[@Heating56]

“And once you can’t support that population, there’s no nice way to bring that number down”. History doesn’t repeat, but history rhymes

[@nathanseper8738]

That quote made me shudder. It is shocking how easily the things that hold up our society can crumble.

[@williammerkel1410]

This reminds me of a angry rant of a paper that I read for a grad student course that was written by environmental extremists, basically it argued that a majority of the population should be humanely euthanized or forced to starve to death in order to atone for our destruction of the environment. Scary stuff.

[@Rugeon]

Your conclusion reminds me a lot of thoughts I had when reading up on the Library of Alexandria. While the decay of that institution was gradual and not nearly as dramatic as often thought, it still represents to me the idea that 'progress' may not be as inevitable as we believe. Knowledge that was gained can be lost, and Civilisation's march forward is not a permanent given. Mostly unthinkable in today's society, it made me consider that 'progress' can be reversed.

[@rjfaber1991]

Civilisation's march forward is something that has essentially continued throughout history; the Bronze Age collapse is one of only a handful of examples of a relatively long-lasting negative trend in human civilisation, but this march forward is not a continuous line either; zoom in and you see that it rises far more sharply than the average, then quickly collapses, and starts quickly rising again.

[@jasonschneijder2012]

you should read 'Sapiens'

[@FrostmourneFK]

I think that todays political climate is evidence enough of that.

[@reasonablespeculation3893]

After checking their "Bronze Privilege" the advanced Civilizations were paralyzed by guilt... There was a decision to invite less educated, less specialized people from less organized societies.... Then, for the sake of cultural enhancement and community cohesion, allow the newcomers to practice their traditional ways.... After 2 or 3 generations the guilt ridden people, along with their privilege producing systems, had disappeared.

[@MaureenLycaon]

All complex civilizations are multicultural, like it or not. The Hittite empire included Nesli (the "Hittites" proper), Hattians, and Hurrians. The Romans, of course, included diverse peoples from every part of the known world. Ancient Egyptians came from sources as diverse as North Africa, the Near East, and even Europe. The dream of an "ethnically pure" state has always been a fantasy.

[@xxiao5156]

It was Walpole. He invested in a time machine and tried to run his scheme with the Pharaohs and whatnot back then.

[@rapidibibothe2300]

that time traveling sociopath

[@gabrielsalisbury7215]

ok, you win the internet. Now go home.

[@xxiao5156]

You sir just solved one of the great historical mysteries.

[@robertwalpole360]

A wild Walpole appears!

[@airmanon7213]

Where's a Quick Ball when you need one?

[@armorsmith43]

As a software engineer, I have to wonder if there are ways to build more robustness into our societies. After Hurricane Katrina, lots of folks became interested in disaster preparedness. But they were focused on an individual or family level. What if we could build disaster preparedness on an urban block level, where a street of 40-80 people have a plan to withstand some major shock.

[@theposhdinosaur7276]

maybe a region by region disaster "tax" which would go to a disaster box to help those in a certain city or county the money should then strictly be used for housing and provisions etc.

[@theposhdinosaur7276]

the tax could be collected in non disaster times, and then distributed only in case of a disaster

[@unvergebeneid]

Or we could just direct those efforts towards preventing the kinds of disasters that can bring our whole global society down by preserving biodiversity, combating the depletion of phosphorus, nitrogen and other crucial limited resources, reverting harmful land use patterns, preventing top soil loss and the waste of fresh water in agriculture, and limiting climate change. Yes, that will cost growth, just as making systems more resilient but if all those things come crushing down on us at the same time, it would be foolish to assume that our civilization can handle that, no matter how many bunkers we build and how much food we stockpile.

[@danielmcgillis270]

If Katrina taught the US any lessons t should be that States counties and cities need to be in charge and the Feds need to come by after and help pay the bills. So much time and effort was wasted because all of the authority to act was placed in DC thousands of miles away. If a disaster to be managed it needs to have locals running the show. They know the people, the terrain, the problems and the needs. If everybody is waiting on the feds to act the disaster is already aftermath by that point. So much time was wasted by the Governor and Mayor waiting on orders rather than just saying "I don't give a crap about regulations let them bill me, get people on anything with wheels and get them out of the way of this thing NOW!"

[@matthewegan5281]

Tesla-Effect go drink some juice, edgelord.

[@matthewwu911]

"The appearance of a new disease, no problem, we can handle that." So much for that one.

[@matthewdoherty803]

Society: yall mind if i dip Society has left the chat

[@TheDude2111]

Define disease , if you mean a pathogen then yes we can, but if you mean a narrative designed to keep a population in a lower class by creating a narrative and using censusual science that's based on feelings rather than facts, then we'll just have to wait and see.

[@spliceosome]

Did your society crumble and completely collapsed?

[@sandpiperr]

@@TheDude2111 is Exhibit A: disproving the idea modern societies can handle the appearance of a new disease Guess Extra Credits didn't count on the depths to which people can be gullible morons who believe everything they see on Facebook!

[@NIDELLANEUM]

@@spliceosome I remember when people all over the internet acted like 2020 was going to look like the bronze age collapse

[@debachiazabache8782]

That final statement was beautifully spoken. We are not gods, we are frail humans.

[@samoak123]

speak for yourself I can bench 100kg.

[@debachiazabache8782]

@@samoak123 Until you can shoot ice from your hands and sing a catchy Disney song in tune, I am not impressed.

[@samoak123]

@@debachiazabache8782 lol nerd!

[@debachiazabache8782]

@@samoak123 The Laidlaw bus is that way 👉😆

[@Hardzie75]

@@samoak123 100 only? i can bench upto 150 if you are gonna flex ,flex a number which seems impressive

[@MrTTnTT]

To sum up the final point in a slightly simpler way: Titanic sank. Nothing to our knowledge has proven to be unsinkable, and the assumption that something is usually leads to catastrophe. That is probably why Titanic proved so traumatic we still remember the jist of the story today. The assumption of infallibility is bound to self-destruct. There's probably something to the concepts presented in the theory of systems collapse.

[@TinyCloud90]

so was Tschernobyl.

[@ondras5241]

Nah, Titanic sunk because people were idiots...

[@brianhsly]

@@ondras5241 These two idea's need not be mutually exclusive. haha

[@btCharlie_]

That's something I used to think when I was at high school - that with how complex and interwoven our society is, it felt so unreal that it functions and at a maddening pace nonetheless. It felt to me that such a delicate system cannot be maintained for long, especially since _every_ society before that collapsed (true, some collapsed because of our advanced society, but still). It was only after I delved more into technology that I saw how this can work - how technology supports us and holds our society together. It's sad that most people don't understand technology even on a basic level because it invites a risk of misinterpreting its abilities and, as you said in the video, grants an illusion of immunity. Nowadays, it's most palpable in coding - it's absolutely everywhere and yet people have no clue what it takes to make a simple script, let alone a functioning app. Like Carl Sagan said, "We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology."

[@imrosebashir2797]

The conclusion makes me realize that our modern societies globally will collapse not in the way of the romans, but in the way of the Bronze Age collapse - and catastrophic climate change might be the biggest culprit

[@green0563]

Asked.

[@thugyheadbanger]

I was thinking that too, especially that most of humanity is on the coast.

[@EllissDee4you4me]

Or alien invaders taking the role of the Sea People.

[@nicholasvanlierde2546]

Roman society became one of worrying more about who ruled rome, than about competing with foreigners. With relying on foreign soldiers to fight for you and foreign slaves to work. Then, when plague strikes and foreigners are already the majority of your society, they cast you down. Our collapse will be the same, AI and robots will surely replace us. Give at a couple hundred years

[@PuzzledMonkey]

Climate change plus pandemic plus economic collapse plus wars plus natural disaster

[@simonbernard4216]

World in 2020: *sweats in coronavirus crisis

[@mr.o8539]

Simon Bernard that’s what I’ve been thinking man, how many months of quarantine can the world handle until systems start breaking down

[@xuan.1611]

Mr. O tbh the modern system wont collapse hard bcs of the rich protecting themself. Then after the disaster they just have to lead the majority working class

[@AlexandreLopsz]

@@xuan.1611 that seems to "Metropolis" to me

[@Koczu0]

@@mr.o8539 A lot more than current state, decline of GDP just by 2 years seems like no crisis at all compared to fall of civilisasion...

[@carso1500]

@@mr.o8539 a lot because the world hasnt entirely stopped, a lot of systems are still working what has been stopped are non esential systems like entertainment or restaurants but food production, energy production, technological and scientific investigation are still going strong, if something they are going even smoother now that mayor centers that consume a lot of resources have stopped, for a real collapse those would have to stop and not all countries are suffering the same, some countries are actually taking the pandemic quite well, maybe some small countries will fall into caos and i'm also of the opinión that the world after the pandemic is not going to look the same as before the pandemic, but it's posible that is for the best

[@hadibendakji3858]

1:13 So you ask Anubis for a harvest and you expect it to be great?

[@shioneshiori4471]

He was only supposed to kill the weeds! 😭

[@TheAzureNightmare]

@@shioneshiori4471 "Kill in my name, Chaka, and I shall secure a harvest better than your Father, Rufus, ever could!!"

[@floatingf8783]

He was supposed to be an advisor on how to avoid death, not act directly.

[@jrodriguez1374]

He did his best okay!? Its not his fault they didnt pray to the right god

[@LuckySingh-ln9ox]

Who's watching this during Corona pandemic

[@markhenley3097]

Time for some Corona.

[@pop5678eye]

Bronze Age: food is scarce. 2020: toilet paper is scarce.

[@LuckySingh-ln9ox]

@@pop5678eye a good one

[@nordicnostalgia8106]

Is the world prepared to withstand prelonged quarentine?

[@trainanade6138]

Me

[@renunciant]

Literally what happens in age of empires when you don't scout your enemy

[@cursedalien]

"the appearance of some new disease" Yeah, about that...

[@VonTyrant]

Sigh. Extra Credits tried to warn us... we did not listen.

[@fantasyfanatical5510]

Hm... too reliant on trade... new disease.... unrest... Oh sh*t.

[@navilluscire2567]

@@fantasyfanatical5510 I'd say it's more like we've or our leaders have gone on to create problems for ourselves and our societies. The Corona virus could've been contained or atleast slow it's advance greatly but because of greed, selfishness, negligence, willful ignorance, and arrogance we thought ourselves to be invincible and untouchable. We as a species could've easily dealt with the problem but chose not to because why sacrifice even a little bit of profits or risk angering corporate shareholders over the long term stability of our societies. Basically preventive measures are something that we could easily do but won't because preventative maintenance isn't profitable.

[@basilofgoodwishes4138]

Thus the Assyrians rise to power and reach their peak, one man's Dark age is another ones Golden age. With that out of the way, we can focus on something else: Cyrus II the great and his rise of power of becoming the Justinian of Alexander

[@franesustic988]

I'm sure they did Justinian already.

[@basilofgoodwishes4138]

Frane Šustić You didn't even read my comment, they should do CYRUS THE GREAT

[@franesustic988]

I did, just wanted you to know since you are obviously interested to go and watch their videos on Justinian, and I would like to see Cyrus or Alexander as well(but that was secondary to informing you of Justinian video that exists already).

[@atlas42185]

Perhaps. In modern economics assuming wealth is zero sum is a fool's mindset

[@nothingtospiffy8287]

The Rising Theurge the "justinian of Alexander? " what's that mean

[@AlexYorim]

Do you think that Plato's tale of Atlantis might have been an allegory of the Bronze Age collapse? Also, it seems that the eruption of Thera and the tale of Joseph might have coincided with the BAC.

[@thunderbird7936]

Blown

[@andyjay729]

"Atlantis" was Mycenea. Why do you think it's always depicted as Greek-like?

[@abram3283]

You're way off, buddy. Read some more.

[@MrNucleosome]

@@andyjay729 Not sure if trolling or stupid.

[@andyjay729]

@@MrNucleosome Was once a rich, powerful civilization, check. Often depicted with Hellenistic architecture and clothing, check. Destroyed by an earthquake and water, check. "Atlantis" was Mycenea.

[@joshuawall646]

I feel that this is the backstory for every game of civ

[@Kardia_of_Rhodes]

Not really, on normal settings you start at usually 3000 BC which is about 2,000 years before all these events. If you decide to start in Classical Era, however...

[@KaptenN]

Yeah, that makes sense. So you research a little bit and suddenly you have writing? No, most likely writing already existed and you just adapted it to your civilization's needs and expanded the knowledge base from a few sages to an entire working class of record keepers.

[@KaptenN]

No, not really. I'm not saying that writing was never invented. We're talking about the beginning of the Sid Meier's Civilization games. This explanation that your civilization isn't the first makes sense. Consider all the ruins you can find, for example. It really feels like you're staring off as a small tribe that survived the something like the bronze age collapse in isolation.

[@sosig6445]

KaptenN There were large cities in the ancient world like The Legendary Jeriko these cities are absurdly old some dates back to 8000 bc! let that number sink in! 5000 years before the age if Sumerian Cities! To Sumer Jeriko is as old as Sumer is to US! incredible! So yes if yo start as a tribe in 3000 bc you probably not the first to invent like any technology for a while... and those ruins speek of an unkown age when The first cities prospered...

[@endersdragon34]

I was thinking of Tropico and how easy it is to mess up an island there by not getting enough merchandise to market to cover the cost of all your workers

[@sammym2511]

Systems collapse is like having someone get a hold of your leg in a fight. You can't reach the person holding it to try to make him let go, and the leg can't get free on its own. You can't just cut off your leg, either; that would put you at an even worse disadvantage. All you can do is hope the other guy has mercy-but usually they don't.

[@leeroyescu]

The systemic collapse theory was developed by *Joseph Tainter,* you can find out more about his argument in his book *The Collapse of Complex Societies (1988)*

[@PragmaticAntithesis]

Thanks!

[@LeahLuciB]

LeBron's age comes to an end. No longer could the people look to the Cavaliers to defend what was once theirs. Warriors had invaded from west, and had left Cleveland ravaged and broken.

[@ericmorton6452]

Dessa great comment 😂

[@AshtonSnapp]

Dessa xD I don't even like sports but I still found this funny

[@WoobooRidesAgain]

We poor wretches in upstate New York share your pain, for we still suffer from the results of the Buffalo Bills Age Collapse.

[@June28July]

The great cowardice of Kevin 'The Rat' Durant has set a new low and plunged the world into a dark age, his rabid lap dog Zaza doing dirty work to destroy great soldiers like Kawhi Leonard delegitimizing a once-great era.

[@russellbrown6888]

The Warriors were then set upon and devoured by vicious Raptors from the north.

[@jamescusack6511]

They also said that the banks are "too big to collapse" Then, 2008 happens

[@ZanathKariashi]

and they were too big to collapse, so they were bailed out.

[@PizzaManager101]

James Cusack many people miscontextualize this quote, thinking it meant "the banks are so big that they are incapable of collapse", when in reality the quote was referring to the idea that the financial systems and banks were so big and integral to the economy that the consequences would be disastrous if they failed, so the government couldn't allow them to fail. a better phrasing of the quote would be "too integral to allow to fail"

[@leonardoeras7962]

They were so big they had to collapse. The bailout was a mistake

[@neurofiedyamato8763]

The banks essentially held the government ransom. They were too big to fail. If they did, it would have disastrous effects to the economy. So the government is forced to bail them out. Knowing that they can get away with anything, they will continue to give unreasonable loans. After all, if the loans succeed, you profit. If they fail, you get bailed out and nothing happens. If they don't bail you out, you drag the rest of the country down. You hold them as ransom.

[@VRichardsn]

_The bailout was a mistake_ I don´t think it was. I mean, a lot of crooks in the banking system got paid for essentially doing a lousy job, which is totally unfair... but the collapse of the banking system would have brought far worse things than just some rich douchebags getting to skip jail. kzbin.info/www/bejne/aJeVnHp-mMl9j7c

[@anttibjorklund1869]

This was a good series.

[@jonbaxter2254]

Fascinating

[@hanssmirnov9946]

I cannot agree. It was a bunch of questionable speculation and non-sequiturs, cobbled together into a long, convoluted speculation with no historical evidence. Really, they tried to use _Ramses III from seven hundred years later,_ to justify the existence of the Sea People during the Bronze Age collapse. Also, it ignores a well-evidenced theory which is the best explanation for the collapse of Egypt and the Hittites. The Hittites had a civil war. And Egypt had the Israelites. The latter detail also explains the razed cities, the new cities appearing along the Jordan River, inland, and among the mountains, and the existence of Israel itself.

[@rgrwlco]

What on Earth are you talking about?

[@NoMustang273]

There's no concrete e identical for the sea people. They themselves said that this has a lot of speculation.

[@NoMustang273]

How does Egypt a day Hitting xollapsing explain the collapse of other kingdoms? Yes, trade was a little dependent on them but what Egypt has was crops and gold. The Hittites were constantly at war etc.

[@sobreinquisidor]

This was the most entertaining yet highly educational and eye-opener video that I've seen in months! I just want to say Thank you!

[@andresmurillo551]

For everyone talking about covid-19 in this video: Yes, covid-19 is a naughty boy, but it's like a bad harvest for our society. Covid-19 is something that will make 2020 and 2021 very bad years; but our real sea people and collapse is climate change. That is the real threat that can combine all the elements the series has explained about the bronze age collapse

[@dkupke]

Just as refugees fleeing the seaborne raiders escalated the crisis, so to will refugees fleeing island nations that are consumed by the oceans

[@Bestmann3n]

@@TheOfficialSpectralz nah it's racists.

[@scottydu81]

The only solution to climate change is to erect a worldwide government of resource distribution, corral as many people as possible into mass population pods, enforce a strict diet of insects, ban individual travel and property rights, oh yeah and to enact massive carbon taxes.

[@harriam0]

@@scottydu81 I'm not 100% sure how serious you are but it's not anywhere near that amount of doom and gloom. Modernized nuclear power, combined with forest restoration initiatives and increased regulation of resource usage gets is most of the way there. Granted that's not easy and requires international cooperation but it's not awful.

[@vladimirlagos2688]

@@TheOfficialSpectralz Nah, if global warming leads to system collapse China is going to be a pillage destination, not a source. Your Sea People are going to be the millions of refugees fleeing from famine and govt collapse all over the Third World. You kind of saw a preview of that with the arrival of the Central American caravans on the US Southern border as people fled from famine, droughts, gang violence, and government corruption and repression in Central America.

[@uniqueusername_]

“A new disease? We can handle it.”

[@crazyman8472]

“Unless our leaders are complete morons, but what are the chances...?” 🤔

[@theunreadyone]

To be fair I’d hardly say being stuck in your home for a little while is akin to entire nations collapsing

[@ArkhBaegor]

@@theunreadyone And even then, the entire chain of production and consumption was barely impacted

[@alexd5637]

@@theunreadyone There are many letters left in the Greek alphabet!

[@TheShadowlord18]

@@theunreadyone Given the number of cases and the occasional appearance of more vaccine resistant strands, coronavirus is undoubtedly a system shock that will burden our system for a long time, and will probably be cited as a factor if/when our current system does collapse when other threats start adding to the pressure. (cough, climate change, cough)

[@altairibnlaahad4431]

Now the Phoenicians can get down to business!

[@augustinedaudu9203]

Altair ibn la ahad you can make a religion out of this

[@pepemontuenga3368]

You can make a religion out of this... Is loving Jesus legal yet?

[@kristofferson6584]

Pepe Montuenga No! But then constantine saya its ok

[@rjfaber1991]

Hey Altair! Learned to swim yet?

[@deriznohappehquite]

Now this looks like a job for me

[@CaptainSully101]

There should be a bronze age collapse total war game

[@MrRainierSalu]

does troy total war count?

[@abthedragon4921]

6:36-9:56 Best "Moral of the story" lesson quote from History Video I've seen in years

[@royalcorvid]

"Hey you know those rich people across the sea have food AND treasure, wanna raid them?" "Bet. They didn't pay my friends this year either might as well get revenge." "Yea, famine hitting hard might as well stock up lets go!" ~ Walpole and the South Sea People.

[@widget3672]

Ancient history is always so interesting, remarkable that there are still so many things we can learn from them in building our societies now to be better and stronger.

[@EricCyaddayaddameow]

if ya can't beat em, join em. I'm a sea person now

[@kap79]

A wonderfully put and concise cautionary tale. I wish I found these earlier, but that just means I have a bunch to binge on now.

[@EllpaFox47]

3:54 “You know who’s not gone? C H I N A”

[@violetevergarden5160]

“Droughts, the appearance of some new disease? No, problem” We have to see how this ends first.

[@rorya01ok37]

KNEW SOMEONE WOULD QUOTE THIS DURING THE PANDEMIC

[@Weatherboy1102]

“We are not invulnerable “ HA SCREW THAT IM GOIN TO THE BEACH

[@10Tabris01]

I mean, back in the day we would have just been dying on mass, so yay?

[@philip8498]

@@10Tabris01 this. The lockdowns, shortages and overall damages this pandemic has caused is just a mild inconvinience compared to the last big pandemic (1918 flu). We didnt loose millions of people yet abd have multiple treatments and vaccines within a year. Lets be happy about that.

[@glorvalmacglorvas171]

systems collapse is something I already knew about - Thank you grand strategy/citybuilders/empire management games.

[@baskingertwitch]

‘The appearance of a new disease? No problem, we can handle it’ aged very well

[@crabscycle988]

The scary thing is, I kind of see this sort of systems failure beginning to occur in our modern day society. I just hope the cat videos survive.

[@KlaxontheImpailr]

I’m afraid to ask but could you elaborate please?

[@killboxman30]

@@KlaxontheImpailr man said this commenting on a KZbin video after a big meal 🤡

[@everettduncan7543]

@@killboxman30 mass immigration is the first sign something is seriously wrong. The problems always start somewhere else

[@stephenjenkins7971]

@@everettduncan7543 Mass immigration has always been a thing in history. For it to become catastrophic, it'd need to be entire countries packing up and moving to other countries. I mean hundreds of millions becoming migrants. A few million is no big deal considering our current population numbers.

[@tdub6078]

just wait until the gulf stream collapses and climate chaos gets going in earnest@@KlaxontheImpailr

[@gusvanskike4889]

“The appearance of some new disease: no problem, we can handle it.” This hits different after COVID

[@stephenjenkins7971]

All things considered, it was no problem, and it was handled. Back in the day such a virulent disease would take 1/3 of civilization's population.

[@Bogwedgle]

7 years later, still sprinting towards systems collapse at maximum speed because a few dozen people would rather be skeletons laying on Scrooge McDuckian piles of gold coins for alien archaeologists to find than solve literally any problem we are facing.

[@eyuin5716]

Any chance you guys will do a series on the Indus Valley Civilization or of other points in Ancient India in the future?

[@lettuceprime4922]

I'd love something on the Mahabharata or other Vedic texts. Maybe the Epic of Gilgamesh or ancient Chinese folklore? "Extra Literature?"

[@eyuin5716]

we can still determine a lot of things based on archaeology alone.

[@gooscarguitar]

1 series of Extra Mythology is a Patreon goal at the moment

[@imveryangryitsnotbutter]

And then can we get Norte Chico after that?

[@garrywarne1]

I think Ashoka would fit the style of this series really well.

[@hellbunnyfromhell]

Very Interesting. How about Extra History on the Dark Ages and the lead up to the High Middle Ages?

[@thunderbird7936]

Hell yeah!

[@genesischaparro8954]

Somehow, Walpole finds a way to get into a video series about events that happened centuries before his great-great-great grandparents did the horizontal hula. *clap clap clap* Well played.

[@robertwalpole360]

Horizontal hula, now that's a new one. ;)

[@redberriescereal8465]

Robert Walpole I have a question. Was it you?

[@eggzumii]

coming back to this after the world's situation brought by the pandemic. "even today, we are not invulnerable" is a statement that resonates in almost terrifying manner in today's context. we thought that we could handle another outbreak, another - chaos as something we could control. the common sense expected from people to follow EACH and every one of our safety protocols was overestimated. due to one major crisis, the world's tradjectory had been changed, causing a domino effect that exposes how our systems are infallible. i'm partly grateful that due to this plague, we weren't wiped off the earth, or forced into a dark age similarly to the civilizations of the bronze age. it gives me hope, that despite our lack of preparation, we can survive this. we can keep leaving our marks for many more decades to come.

[@Avrelianvs]

9:32 *Coronavirus: Am i a joke to you?*

[@SteinerZi]

This was a lovely series into a largely unexplored time of history. Thanks very much Extra Credits!

[@killerOfMoons]

Should I evolve my Walpole?

[@xMasterxRazorx]

Walpoleon?

[@augustinedaudu9203]

Sealand Ball he upgraded to prime minister

[@killerOfMoons]

Loren so, should I trade him in for a Yi or a Oda?

[@robertwalpole360]

Walpoleceus!

[@mattwarmka1703]

Yi is a strong water class, but a Walpole is good in all scenarios.

[@ThomCote88]

One of my favorite series of yours, both because of its particular relevance to today and because I just like listening to historical speculation.

[@elihinze3161]

I'm obsessed with the Bronze Age collapse, and have scoured KZbin for the best explainer videos to send to others. This series is the best one out there, hands down.

[@krzyktty101]

Ironically watching this during the Corona virus quarantine.

[@ghyslainabel]

Yes, and we in the West thought ourselves invulnerable. We should have implemented quarantine in January, when containment was still a possibility.

[@jaewok5G]

​@@ghyslainabel 'containment' is never a realistic possibility, we just needed to 'pause' until we get a reasonable understanding, then adapt and continue. we're really screwing up the 'continue' part b/c all of the ignorant sensationalism to drive fear.

[@jaewok5G]

@Musta Krackish watching vid about the collapse of an ancient civilization while living through what may someday be known as the beginning of the collapse of our civilization

[@gordonhodgson8403]

Same

[@russellbrown6888]

@@jaewok5G Various human civilizations have been through far, FAR worse than the COVID-19 pandemic and still came out functioning (Spanish Flu, Bubonic Plague in Europe, etc.). The shutdown we're seeing is just for non-essential things like entertainment and restaurants. We're still producing food and power and global transportation is still running fine. Only if those last 3 things fail would civilization be in trouble, and they are nowhere close to threatened. COVID-19 will not be the end of civilization. It's barely even a bump in the road.

[@Democrities]

I wonder how the bronze age collapse effected the Indus valley and the Shang dynasty

[@ettinakitten5047]

As far as I know, not at all.

[@Democrities]

Really??? Why was that so?

[@ilmisteriosofranceseradene7548]

The Indus River valley civilisation collapsed 800 years before the Bronze Age collapsed, mainly because the quality of the soil of the river had a capacity for food production nearly not enough to supply a great palace, not to mention of the salinisation of the area, and the Shang, collapsed mostly for their fragility after years of government, outside force and maybe some disease or famine along the way, not to mention the break up of their empire.

[@taoliu3949]

Mathias Radenez Shang wasn't broken up, it was eventually conquered and absorbed by the Zhou

[@heartofautomotive1652]

@@ilmisteriosofranceseradene7548 what if the people of Indus valley civilization are the referred as sea people ?! Late Harappan had migrated and they didn't find a proper settlement anywhere in the northern Europe but were excellent in warfare and just dived back

[@ethanworner864]

I now want a fantasy series where the collapse was caused by a sorcerer/magical being and in the modern day they awake.

[@nicholasparliament7197]

Brilliant series. Thank you for doing this. The theory of systems collapse reminds me so much of the universal law of entropy. The universe tends towards disorder, it requires increasing energy to maintain increasingly complex systems. It is the same in the human body: why an inability to produce insulin in the pancreas can lead to a life altering disease, why a single genetic mutation can cause deadly cancer, and why a blockage in a vessel can kill a person. It is why your room gets messier, not dirtier. It is why we need trash removal, why we shovel snow, i could go on. As a globalized society, we are in a constant battle against entropy, disorder. We have to remain responsible, diligent, and vigilant. If we alter our environment to the point that we cannot produce enough food to feed the absolutely astronomical and still skyrocketing global population, I can only imagine what a bronze age type collapse would look like in the modern day.

[@CosmiaNebula]

further reading on systems collapse theory: The Collapse of Complex Societies by J A Tainter. A lecture given by J A Tainter that applies this theory to the collapse of Western Roman Empire is kzbin.info/www/bejne/fWG1YWyPr96oeas

[@jacobsladdertreetech2829]

Refreshing to hear you actually state that you were about to speculate. I'm loving these videos!

[@BroncUrmom]

9:38 New Diesease "We survived but barely"

[@noangles1564]

I knew it! Walpole is behind everything!!!

[@robertwalpole360]

In one way or another. ;)

[@jonbaxter2254]

Dammit walpole!

[@declannewton2556]

What is Walpole?

[@noangles1564]

Declan Newton-Maharaj watch their videos of the south bubble sea its great and hilarious ;)

[@tobybartels8426]

9:35 : Message from the future: The appearance of a new disease can still be a problem.

[@andrewcapra7153]

I think this is actually a really good example of what he's talking about. Because if it was just a disease, the world could tough it out easily. Hell, 1918 had the entire world eating casualty numbers rivaling their most bloody wars and just toughing it out. What's happening now is the virus being our "Sea People", a painful disaster hitting when we're already suffering from massive systemic problems that we were formerly able to chug along through, but are now openly displaying the massive cracks that we've just been ignoring because the world lulled itself into a false sense of invincibility.

[@ggarcia393]

Crazy how well you conclusion lines up with today

[@GreaterJan]

"We can weather some new disease" oh boy that prediction was too accurate

[@rayrowley4013]

"The appearance of some new disease? No problem" I mean we will completely botch the landing, but we will get through it.

[@mamacitasenorita1680]

Why do I feel like the Sea Peoples are the Reapers of the Bronze Age era, wiping out civilization at the end of their cycles in order for civilization to survive and evolve

[@---uf2zl]

But civilization did not survive and evolve. It took ages for anything to regrow there.

[@mamacitasenorita1680]

Well it didn't survive true, but after many millennia it evolved

[@PitLord777]

Yes. It evolved once they were back at the point of the pre-Collapse civilizations. The Bronze Age Collapse is like downloading a file at 85% but then something happens and then you have to redownload the entire file again.

[@mamacitasenorita1680]

Damn internet speed... or pirates, or net neutrality xD

[@MultiRedskull]

The Reapers?

[@clarenceonyekwere5428]

On a civilizational scale, we weathered even the COVID crisis and a few other major health crises. It looks rough when you zoom in, but as a civilization we did better than most other times in history.

[@eekijokinen345]

The reasoning about this case is so "MAYBE" on point! That I dont have to speculate anymore. Thanks EC-Dudes! Awesome channel.. Big ups!

[@antonjonsson424]

This series was very thought provoking and informative. It made me think about the structure of society in a new way. Thank you

[@Frogthroat1]

As society progresses, the costs go up. This is a phenomenon every 4X strategy game player knows all too well.

[@Ploskkky]

Oh my god... The Joker was involved in this too! 4:14

[@luisrivas6923]

Rewatching the original societal collapse before the remake drops.

[@AustinAOkay]

Yup

[@DCMarvelMultiverse]

I always had two questions. 1. What if people used vulnerable varieties and relied too much on those varieties? 2. What if markets were manipulated?

[@danepeterson2020]

"Our society is more equipped to handle... the appearance of some new disease". *Winces in post 2021*

[@Runetrantor]

The whole Bronze Age Collapse really reads like a story of the end of the world straight out of a movie of today. Disasters followed by strange invaders, and urban centers abandoned to ruin as the survivors hide in small settlements in the mountains. Rename the Sea People as 'zombies' and its literally a fictional story of today. It must have truly seem like the world was coming to an end as a whole.

[@skeletonking2501]

This genuinely feels like an apocalypse and the grand kind. When we think of an apocalypse, it's of modern-day ruins, but an apocalypse can happen any time, just not as grand looking.

[@tnerbtnerb5136]

2:26 So in the end what caused the Bronze Age collapse? We may never kn- Walpole. It was Walpole.

[@markhenley3097]

He time travelled and sent the Sea Peoples to invade the Bronze Age?

[@also_arles]

I know this series is one of the older ones, but I always like sticking around to the very end of these videos like these because of how much I love the music for the outros. This one's no exception!

[@LuigiGodzillaGirl]

"...the appearance of some new disease? No, problem” *laughs nervously in 2020*

[@yishaqdavid2029]

"The appearance of some new disease".......Well, that happened now...

[@kornetbeef]

Damn it we need Pokémon Rusty to capture Wild Walpole.

[@robertwalpole360]

YOU WILL NEVER CATCH ME! Woop, woop, woop ,woop!

[@thekingcreeperissexy]

Robert Walpole it was you

[@azelfdaboi5265]

@@robertwalpole360 *throws master ball at walpole*

[@user-qj1bt1uv2n]

@@azelfdaboi5265 it misses.

[@kartesia3795]

Which video originate this precious meme?

[@michaels7566]

I really enjoyed the series. You connected all the known dots in an enjoyable and creative way and laid out all the logical conclusions. Those damn Sea People destroyed most of the historic records. They were the Vikings of that era. I would love to have lived back then...well, maybe not : )

[@oliviawarren778]

This was by far one of my favorite videos of yours! Thank all of you that worked so hard to make it!

[@juancarlossanchezmutis8911]

I'm not a historian or know too much of history, but this particular episode shows something that is tangible and can be seen around the world today. Politicians should remind themselves of their purpose by watching these videos. Thanks for giving a thourough yet simple explanation thyat helps understand what makes the world go round.

[@lucaswallace7476]

"The appearance of a new disease? No problem. We can handle it." YOU'D THINK SO, WOULDN'T YOU?

[@wizardgherkin]

:)

[@HalNordmann]

Well, civilization didn't collapse. So you could say we handled it in that sense

[@abram7186]

"droughts or new diseases, we can handle it all" lol

[@Storming360]

we still are here, aren't we?

[@abram7186]

@@Storming360 3.9 million people would disagree

[@Storming360]

@@abram7186 "we" in that sentence is referring to civilization.

[@bombader2677]

I feel like the rival nations probably just laughed when they heard news of the rivals getting defeated, only to feel it later in hindsight.

[@wendychavez5348]

The Gordian Knot reference was well placed--I have trouble understanding it, but in this context it makes perfect sense! Wow.

[@alpacaofthemountain8760]

Amazing video!I find these historical stories so interesting, as they can teach us a lot about today. The Bronze Age collapse tells us to stick together, and to try our best to stand strong

[@arberlamce4598]

Oranges actually are produced in winter time.

[@DanCooper404]

Yeah, but not in the northern hemisphere 200 years ago.

[@christiandauz3742]

And not cheap enough without the Agricultural Revolution