The Catharsis of Doing - Designing Emotionally Intense Experiences - Extra Credits

[@extrahistory]

(Thanks to Privacy.com for sponsoring this episode. Go to www.privacy.com/extracredits to get $5 off your first purchase for a limited time!) What game(s) have you played recently that provided a cathartic experience for you? Was it a positive experience, or did it leave you feeling more frustrated and unsatisfied?

[@aguy2581]

Hello there

[@observer-n5572]

*This was getting Frisky*

[@faffywhosmilesatdeath5953]

Inner Agent 3 at the end of the Octo Expansion was an immense difficulty spike for the game overall and for a while it had the inverse cathartic effect on me. Eventually I hit my "Dark Souls epiphany" as it is so popularly known, and beat it the next day. Knowing that I best this massive challenge through perseverance made me over the moon happy. When I did it I leapt out of my seat and yelled in triumph. "You've defeated the hero within yourself! You feel like the freshest Octoling ever!" I think it's especially uplifting because the Inner Agent 3 battle is directly related to an unresolved conflict in Agent 8's past. Finding the Golden Toothpick in the locker reminds them off that conflict and gives them the chance to resolve it. The Toothpick represents past challenges and the chance to resolve them and move on. Thank you for another great video.

[@stalionv4587]

The only diference between games and real life, is that in video games you have more than one life, while in real life you only have *one* Edit for Keiharris 332: The only diferente between games and real life, is that in *MOST* video games you have more than one life, while in real life you have *one*.

[@winnerloser]

I like the Undertale Reference

[@theploymaker]

"Movies can't make you say, 'I regret that choice, I want to go back!'" I dunno, have you ever seen Shyamalan's Last Airbender movie?

[@Artem1620]

LOL

[@gunjfur8633]

My parents would have liket to see the sequels

[@YouW00t]

Savage!

[@XescoPicas]

Or Dragon Ball Evolution. I still have nightmares...

[@adequatepipe8610]

Now there's pain that sticks with you!

[@KarolaTea]

And even when the story is linear, or that cutscene that plays can't be avoided... you're still part of the story more than in any other medium. I think "regret" is the emotion games might be best at.

[@danilooliveira6580]

I feel like presenting strong emotions like that in linear experiences can backfire hard. because the player is in control, but at the same time he isn't. if you try to blame the character (and consequently the player) for the things that happen, it won't work at all for the player, and may actually even anger him.

[@S0oo]

I wonder what "Sea of Solitude" will do to me this year.

[@Ghiaman1334]

Maybe this is when it's most viable. If the game is good enough at characterisation that you become that character, whether you associate with them or not, then that choice is still your choice. You watch that happen. If you ask people why they did something bad or wrong, serious or not, you're very likely to get a response like 'I didn't mean to', like they just watched themselves do it, when in reality they were the operative in that act. Game can present this so well - you are both watching the character you're embodying do the regretful deed, while at the same time being the one pushing the buttons and causing this to happen, as while the game might not progress if you do nothing, the world will still progress in time if you put the controller down and stopped playing. You had to make that action happen, so you technically did it.

[@VashdaCrash]

@@Ghiaman1334 So, is it a case of "You didn't noticed, but your brain did" kind of thing? I guess that's why people get angry instead of bored.

[@GKCanman]

I think Planescape Torment is a good example of this guilt through dialogue. Your character, The Nameless One, endlessly revives and you find that some of his past actions were cruelly practical choices. There's a real gut punch you get when you discover who the ghost at the beginning is, why Ignus is the way he is and why Dak'kon is bound to you. While you as a player didn't participate in this you still feel responsible for it in some way.

[@Lord.Kiltridge]

This is why the best games always include some way to gain something even while losing. Gaining strength, strategic knowledge, or experience, for examples. I remember explaining to my young son, who was struggling with an in game challenge, that every time he tries, he gains something, especially when he loses. And that what he gains during this battle, he can use in the next. In another game he watched me fight the same battle over and over, each time pointing out what I had learned, and discussing with him my thoughts on how I could improve my strategy in the next one.

[@Shrooblord]

That's wonderful. I wish I could've grown up with my dad playing games with me like that. It inspires me to take this anecdote of yours into the core design of the challenges in my games, and to make sure the game explains this concept -- implicitly rather than explicitly -- to the player, even when they fail. Great comment!

[@fernandobanda5734]

@@Shrooblord If you're going to reward players even when losing, then I already respect your design.

[@CascadeHush]

Up to a point, yes. But games that involve mindless grinding, or throw boss battles at you that require a skill-set completely divorced from the rest of the game just end up taking me out of the game. I think this is why I prefer open world games, because you can go and do something else or maybe even skip that section altogether. For every game I finish, there are probably 2 others I gave up on because the game stopped being fun because it became something divorced from the game played to that point. If you are going to teach people skills or give them items, let them use them. Don't invalidate them just to make the game hard or different.

[@bonefetcherbrimley7740]

Losing is merely an opportunity to learn.

[@epauletshark3793]

Failure is how we learn. Fail faster.

[@GadolElohai]

About the regret part at the beginning; as a kid, I was playing Pokemon Ranger: Shadows of Almia. At a certain point, you return to the school you began on at the beginning of the game, except this time as a full-fledged Pokemon Ranger. The students and staff ask a bunch of questions, and among them, the principal asks if the chairmistress of the Ranger Union, a sweet old lady, is in good health. I answered no my first time. I spent the rest of the day in tears. My parents tried to understand what was wrong, but I wouldn't tell them because it would sound silly. It was just too terrible for me lying and imagining that sweet old lady being sick, maybe even dying.

[@NolanJohnson423]

Gadol Elohai Shadows of Almia was one of my favorite DS games

[@johnwestensnorris6391]

I remember 1st time playing I spent 10 minutes refusing to give the enemy that item for your teamate. Don't remember what it was.

[@TheLegendarySage]

For me, that moment of regret came while I was playing Elite Beat Agents for the DS. There's a stage where the EBA team has to help a little girl cope with the lose of her father to an accident, and help his spirit return for Christmas. If you fail the mission, she forgets about her father and eventually convinces her mom to move out of the home years later. With the song "You're My Inspiration" playing in the background the I got so emotional that I teared up and couldn't see the screen, and I failed it. I felt so bad about it I had to cry it out a little before returning to complete. It was very well done and makes you realize your performance has consequences!

[@firagabird]

@@TheLegendarySage oh god, that level hit me right in the feels

[@gardenhead92]

I never used to get angry at failure in games, but that's changed as I've grown older. As I have to face more real-world problems and have less free time than ever, repeatedly failing a challenge now triggers a nerve it didn't used to. I find that while I think I'm playing video-games to destress, they're often just contributing to it. But unlike when I was young, if a video-game gets too frustrating, I now have the willpower to just put it down and do something else.

[@Artem1620]

I know right? I gave up on shooting games because I simply can't get to the point where I feel good anymore. I've also ended up perma quitting WoW and other level cap expansion heavy mmos, solely because the grind is thousands of hours.

[@ShePudding]

For me, getting a game was such a rare and expensive thing (or rented for just one week), that I would put my all into completing them as quickly and thoroughly as possible. At a certain point, it didn’t even matter if they were fun. Seeing the ending, then the “true” ending... restarting over and over because I was gunning for 100%... I felt like, if I failed, it was a character flaw. Something that applied to the real world: giving up on “important” things. I wouldn’t allow myself to be outwardly angry, either... though that part was a mistake. Remember kids: internalizing all your frustration and never speaking about it is just as poisonous to you and those around you as expressing it incorrectly. Unfortunately. :p Now I can be more critical of a game’s worth versus my time, but there’s still that part of me. That “not giving up” principal that very much applies to the real world, and miserable situations that tested that resolve. And I occasionally see games I really like as a test of both my resolve, and ability to judge it’s value. But it doesn’t have to be every game. Case in point: Attaining Hollow Knight’s 3rd ending, Path of Pain, all but 1 Pantheon and all the charms? Worth it. Attaining every trophy, even when 1 involves outright murder, and completing that last Pantheon ( likely taking another week of grinding and “getting gud”, if not more)? Naaaaaahhhh....nah nah. I can sit on that 112% completion number. That last ending is dubious at best, anyway. 👍

[@GaborSzabo747]

This is why I turned away from serious competitive games like Warcraft III and Starcraft II.

[@DavidBeaumont]

I think that's a very good point about unfulfilled ambition being toxic. Many games "promise empowerment" and are played by people who want not only catharsis, but self validation. "You're a good player" say the games, "You're a winner". So when a game refuses to deliver that, some people don't handle it well. Now I love the Souls series, but watching some KZbinrs play you realise how toxic they get, because the game won't hand them a win. They rage, the shout, they throw controllers ... and yet, when they eventually defeat the boss, perhaps on the 100th try, they act like "yeah, you're my bitch, I own you, I'm so effing great", when the evidence is far from that (since they died at every attempt prior). They finally get the catharsis they sought, but now it's tainted with toxic feelings of "entitlement rage". Why won't you just give me the thing I think I deserve? Why won't you just tell me I'm "the best" etc... The mentality of some gamers is that games are there to unconditionally prop up self image (and an awful lot of games do just that). It's like "if you do a little dance for us, we'll pat you on the head and tell you you're great". But I think games should strive to be better than that. They should provoke thought, self-reflection, and doubt. Don't just reinforce the "everything you do is great" feelings of young men (and women), get them to reflect on how actions have consequences, some good, some bad.

[@favioferreira8921]

Aggretsuko!

[@french_bread4961]

2:04 is where it's at.

[@filipe2338]

@@french_bread4961 I understood that reference

[@krankarvolund7771]

I did recognize the figure XD

[@RowinMarkov]

2:05 the moment in this video I was reminded i should binge that show again.

[@favioferreira8921]

RowinMarkov It’s so easy to binge. All together it’s the length of a movie.

[@archiefoster4907]

The biggest moments of catharsis I ever experienced in games were ending of pacifist route in Undertale and good ending of first Bioshock. They seemed to me so beautiful that I can't even think about rerun these games on different, bad endings. It feels like I'll ruin happiness of those characters if I ever do this. I guess I'm emotionaly attached to them a little too much.

[@anna44644]

I feel exactly the same about Bioshock I just love it too much!Undertale is nice too :D

[@philcollins5457]

That compounding of frustration is what lead me to put down MOBA games as a genre. I kept going to them for some sort of release, but there’s nothing cathartic about going 0/9, having an AFK or making one bad play that throws the game. That’s a recipe for a hole in a wall.

[@nin10doadict]

This right here just fully explained why I generally prefer easy difficulties in games. I want my catharsis and getting denied it because the game is hard is pretty awful. I have a tendency to get my mood soured more than most by failing repeatedly in a game, so I tend toward the easier levels to avoid that happening.

[@mesome777]

Perhaps this is me being immature but I would have really liked more discussion on the in game/ mechanics side of creating these experiences. This seemed more like a general discussion of how videogames are different than other media, which is cool but it does t help me as an amateurs designer create that experience for my players.

[@faffywhosmilesatdeath5953]

2:05 Yeah! We deserve a vacation! *Yeah! We deserve a vacation!*

[@Tom-hz1pi]

Okay...

[@faffywhosmilesatdeath5953]

@@Tom-hz1pi watch Aggretsuko

[@Tom-hz1pi]

I have...

[@polandballhistorian8537]

I like the beginning. "You don't matter. None of us do. The world is too big for us to matter, and it's hard to achieve personal accomplishments. That's why people like games, because they feel, and are, so insignificant that in-productivity is their only means of escaping this dark and cruel world." thanks

[@arcanearts9656]

I see that Aggretsuko reference you made. I like it.

[@officialburgar]

2:05

[@BisectedBrioche]

@2:02 Subtle Aggretsuko reference? :p

[@Addy0302]

That's what I was thinking

[@DRakeTRofKBam]

Indeed it must be.

[@Mr.Trololo]

yep, i was about to comment that

[@elton8135]

STRONG Affretsuko reference

[@kaedesakura9274]

Absolutely. Everyone noticed.

[@OmegaVitaminC]

This is my new favorite episode. I've always wanted to say this lesson to friends and family about games, but I've never seen it summed up so clearly and concisely.

[@tomasmcgrath5766]

It's a beautiful day outside. Birds are singing, flowers are blooming, on days like this kids like you should be DOING YOUR HOMEWORK.

[@RailwayHacker]

This is why I used Cheat Codes: To de-stress with games. Devs have stopped putting in cheat codes, also block memory & savegame edits. Even for single player games. That is why I only buy Indie games these days: They bring me the catharsis of beating the games/challenges how I want it. I do not have the dexterity for headshots, but I can still enjoy the world-building and setting. Cheat Codes and Cheat Engine memory/savegame edits let me do that: Have fun Online Services do not provide that and even ban single player game edits :(

[@ThomasstevenSlater]

I also dislike how some games have overly pandered to hardtarded players who expect developer to give them challenges on a silver platter and get satisfaction knowing other, worse, people are denied something.

[@HxH2011DRA]

I relate, this is why I like different modes as well

[@KlintKaras]

If a game is 100% single player there should be the option to make you omnipotent Or a glass cannon imo. What ever you want!

[@tsukuyomin]

@@KlintKaras No there should not, because it tends to move the player away from the intended experience. People would miss out on the actual game if they are too easily persuaded to use such cheats. I know from experience. It is OK for there to be such a mode, but it should not be easily accessible.

[@adequatepipe8610]

There was something special about having an index card full of your favorite button combos. And the joy of successfully pulling off a glitch (first time I dupped cabbages in Oblivion? They spilled everywhere and killed my fps. Magical). Spawning weird items, messing with computer ai, playing on God Mode because sometimes I just want to be unstoppable... All these things contributed to my gaming experience! Cheats helped me love my games even more. Now, I no longer have the time to devote to grinding and pratice and I miss them so much more.

[@TheDoctor423]

Any chance you might do an actual full video on Undertale? Its design does raise a good question: can we use games to teach empathy?

[@whm_w8833]

The Doctor or lack of empathy because of doing genocide run?

[@SilverMontegiu]

You know, in my opinion, undertale is a game about choice and responsibility. No matter how many times you will do pacifist run - if genocide was performed at least once, you will be reminded about it forever. You made that choice - you will be responsible for it. Your sins will always be crawling on your back...

[@TintenHunter]

For u: A Question of Empathy: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nJfXm6JneMqjh6c

[@umbrellaeyethingguy4665]

@@TintenHunter yeah, they already did the video, undertale didnt add much to what they already said

[@PixelBytesPixelArtist]

I think a message needs to be sent to people about undertale and indie games. Because everyone I’ve talked about indie dev to I often tell them I can’t do xyz because I’m only an indie developer they always bring up how undertale can do it. This especially happens when talking about getting a game popular. I wish people would lower their expectations on indie games

[@MattHew-rq8zw]

As someone who spent three years of his own life, in the army - overseas, miles upon miles away from home. ... I learned in the aftermath that games can be a medium that, to some degree can aid us Veterans. :/ So far I've only been playing a handful of shooters, compared to other genres of games... And still, they do bring a small level of relief to a damaged individual such as myself. :) Pulling the trigger, puts a metallic taste in the mouth, add in sulphur and vomit at times... Never the easy thing to decide, but crucial nonetheless. Thanks for today's video amongst the many! Extra credits!

[@camf1991]

The point in my life when I got the most mad at gaming was also when I was the most out of control in my day to day life. I felt that "at least I can win at league." and if I didnt. If I had a bad streak that day, it would ruin my whole day. Realizing this and working to correct it has led to me being much healthier and being able to enjoy games much more.

[@fist-of-doom487]

Since Undertale was brought up, I think it does a clever trick of using Regret and Catharsis because of the mechanics and story implications. The larger story revolves around you being able to do whatever you want because you can save and load, because you have the Determination you can change events. No one except two people will ever know you did it and they will never hesitate to remind you of the things you did, but they will also congratulate you on the good things you did or at the very least be less upset with you. The thing is that because you have this freedom, in most games it removes emotion to a game but the story and the way it twists on you and even the characters themselves make it very clear exactly what you’re doing and every chance they get they remind you. You can’t help but love their charm but that’s also what makes you’re evil and selfish deeds hurt more. Up until the game stops giving you chances to change and decides that it’s finally time to fight back. All that regret fades away during that infuriatingly hard boss fight with Sans, and you stop caring that you’re trying to kill people and are focused on the need to kill. When you finally kill Sans, you’re happy and then the game snaps you back and makes you realize what you just did and you feel terrible.

[@sirrliv]

I have experienced all of these at various points in my gaming life, many from the most unusual sources. For immersion into catharsis and Regret, I always turn to one particular experience in, of all things, Microsoft Train Simulator. On this occasion, I was driving my London Midland & Scottish Railway 4F Class, a small six-wheeled steam locomotive, with a new set of freight wagons I'd just installed and wanted to try out. There were a huge variety of them, each with a different cargo, from bricks to coal to giant rolls of paper. I hadn't bothered counting how many there were exactly when I was making up my train and it was only after I loaded the free-roam scenario and started my drive that I realized there must have been over 30 wagons plus a brake van in my train, all to be pulled by my little 4F. Then there was the route I'd selected, a little British branch line set in about the 1950's. There were a couple unique features to it though; immediately after leaving the first station, there was a sharp right hand curve that led onto a long, tall stone viaduct, past which was a short flat segment of track, a smaller bridge over a road, and then The Hill, a long, steep climb that went on for miles until the next station, challenging enough for bigger engines with lighter passenger trains, but truly intimidating for my little engine overloaded with too many wagons. Finally, whether because I thought it would look pretty or because I wanted more of a challenge, I'd set the weather conditions and time of day to Winter, Snow, and Evening. Normally, MSTS' weather conditions were pretty bland, but somehow on that occasion I found myself in the middle of a full scale blizzard, unable to see one end of my train from the other. And so I set off, charging forward through the first curve, trying to build up momentum both to prevent my train from getting stuck in the curve as sometimes happened before and to get as much of a running start as I could at The Hill. Over the viaduct I went, my stoker shoveling coal madly into the firebox, trying to build up the heat to make more steam. And then we hit The Hill and I watched my speed plummet. Soon the driving wheels started slipping; the snow and winter weather were making the rails too slick for the wheels to get a grip. I started the sanders, dropping sand onto the rails, which in MSTS unrealistically completely cancelled out all wheelslip. But it wasn't enough. I also wasn't the most proficient driver at the time, being young and stupid as we all were long ago, so I didn't know how to properly manage my steam usage. As a result, the pressure in the boiler dropped almost as fast as the speed until at last I literally ran out of steam and my train slowed to a halt. Quickly, I threw on the vacuum brakes, which secured the engine and tender, but had no effect on the wagons since they were all unfitted, meaning they had no brakes at all beyond simple handbrakes for parking. I also applied the strong handbrake in the guard's van, which was just enough to prevent the train rolling back. And so, unable to move forward and unwilling to roll back, I waited for my engine to build up a fresh head of steam. Looking out at my train, I could only imagine what it might have been like, huddled in the mostly open cab as the snow drove down, the train held where it was by who knew what (even with the brakes on I had to leave the throttle wide open to stop it rolling back), just watching that pressure needle rise. Until at last I had enough steam to try again. Release the brakes, whistle to the guard and hope he can hear through the snow, and start rolling forward again, crawling, clawing a little further up the hill. But I didn't get far, barely the length of my own train, before I was once again running out of steam. I had no choice but to stop and do the whole thing over again. And so I struggled on, again and again, dragging those wagons up one train length at a time. And then came the regret. I was still fairly young back then, in my early-mid teens, and was also still pretty stupid. Eventually... I got bored. And if there was one thing I liked more than driving trains, it was crashing them. So at last, I saw that I was getting nowhere fast and so decided instead to release all the brakes, throw the engine into reverse, and send it to its fate. To this day I look back at that decision and shake my head. Even with my rudimentary steam driving skills I was making progress. And the circumstances of that journey had aligned themselves in a way that I have never been able to replicate. Never since have I had a train simulator experience quite as epic as that one slog through the snow in my little 4F. And I know, had I just stuck with it, I could have made it to the top of The Hill.

[@MrCreeper1O2]

You guys should talk about this in relation to Rimworld. I think it can lend itself to acceptance of events. Because of the chaotic nature of the game, it mimics life. You never know when a raid, an infestation, a terrible mental break, will throw another challenge. The acceptance is in realizing after losing everything, there may have been nothing you could do.

[@SacchieILU]

Id love to hear what you guys think of Bandersnatch and interactive TV/Film; the line between them and games. There were decisions I made in Bandersnatch I regret, for example.

[@analytixna6610]

Much of black mirror is a gateway drug to horror and sci-fi concepts and I think bandersnatch is another gateway drug but for games. While I don't think it does anything new for games but it's weirdness is basically being a fmv game is pretty neat. And you can't ignore the accessibility it has

[@danilooliveira6580]

for me if you can call visual novels games, then you can call interactive films games. before bandersnatch there were games that were pretty much interactive films (just with more mechanics usually), so its nothing really new. either way, I guess we can all agree its all interactive media.

[@hollandscottthomas]

FROSTED FLAKES /or/ KILL DAD

[@SacchieILU]

@@danilooliveira6580 kinda exactly what kind of discussion Id like to see. Film and Game lines blur even further each day; its clearly become a scale from Noninteractive Film, to Interactive but same-story Film like Possibilia, to Interactively changable film like Bandersnatch, to Visual Novels and games like Her Story, to Games on "rails," to Open World Games.

[@moartems5076]

Bandersnatch lost me pretty fast: I dont want those damn cereals! I dont like either music tapes! What, back to the start? In movies people make stupid choices all the time, and its funny to see them screw up. Presenting the watcher with pretend choices, while giving him no agancy over the execution, is just about the worst, frustrating experience whatsoever.

[@glitchygear9453]

Games can also be a great tool for preventing regrets by allowing us a "safe space" to make mistakes without those mistakes making a negative impact on our world, and the people within it.

[@sinanalpsu1562]

Scott really knocked it out with the art on this one, very clever stuff.

[@ace-catel]

I like to think about art in media to help the process of experiencing emotion and complex feelings in a safe environment. While there are many games that have a catharsis in them, some experiences like sadness, regret, anger, and fear can be safely simulated in movies, books, and games. I love games because of the level of interaction, even if you don't really have a choice in the game, still makes you feel like you have a hand in what the end result is. Especially when the game won't just continue without you playing through it.

[@Redchocobo]

A line that makes me cry... "Don't say it's not worth it." -Yuna, FFX

[@WhitepawWolfGaming]

"Books, film, and television can never present us the opportunity to say 'I wish I hadn't done that.'" They do all the time for me.

[@MrRukrio1]

case in point, buying a movie or book you regret because of how much it sucks or realizing a show or movie isn't your tastes...

[@aiksi5605]

@@MrRukrio1 lol

[@torioto]

I suppose sometimes, if one is intensely invested in a character and their choices, then one may feel the same pain and regret as they do...

[@neilisbored2177]

@@torioto No he meant watchin shit like something you'd find on wheel of the worst as the worst tape.

[@captasticts8419]

but it's never _you_ in those media (with a few exceptions)

[@uniquarius9439]

I feel like it happens with dreams too. Like there is an assistant principal that i can't really talk to because I had a dream that I was in school and he shouted at me for something. Sometimes having conversations with others in my mind can add rage against them that I wouldn't have had if I just went to them first, but I guess it allows me to sort through my emotions and what I think of them, making me realize that I might have an incorrect and sometimes even toxic view of them, that they didn't deserve

[@ildalailamer8341]

This video is amazing. You guys are always on point on explain in simpler ways some really intricate concepts that are eye opening. I hope everyone who watches this video realize how they can affect their game experience, and the experience of others during online gaming, as much as it is affecting me. Keep up the good job EC! Much love

[@emeraldqueen1994]

In “The Legend of Spyro: Dawn of the Dragon” near the end of the game, Ignitus, Spyro’s mentor and father figure gives his life to help Spyro and his sister, Cynder, during a war against Malefore, the Dark Master... that cutscene out of the whole Legend trilogy got me the hardest... because my 10 year old cat (got him when I was four... the same year that the original Spyro the Dragon came out for PS1) was starting to get sick... I lost my cat New Year’s Eve 2008... he died at the foot of my bed....I got a Spyro plushie the year before my cat passed away, and I still carry that plushie everywhere I go and sleep with it every night because it’s in a way my link to my cat, Blitzen... (named after the rain deer) I can’t replay that cutscene without tears even though I know what’s coming...

[@SamuelSarette]

The whole "taking the feelings with you after the simulation" thing actually happens with dreaming too. This can be bad because you often have people you know in your dreams and you can subconsciously associate dream-created emotions with the real life people, good or bad.

[@lorekeeper2190]

I have to say, a lot of these concepts are especially helpful when it comes to designing stories for games and DnD (On a fundamental standpoint, they are incredibly similar, only that DnD is more open to possible outcomes, that you'll be planning moments rather than entire runs.) especially when it comes to writing their stories, and as well as outcomes to those choices, I'm hoping I could execute what I've learned here well enough. Oh, and thank you for covering this particular topic!

[@elliecraig8428]

That single shot you guys used to represent fighting a Dark sould boss, the one with the knight and the sword-wielding figure in the foreground: its excellent. I don't know why I like that peice of art so much, but I want whichever artist who made it to know that I appreciate it immensely.

[@shawnheatherly]

I absolutely agree with this. I've felt empathy for video game characters I only spent a handle of hours with and felt less for a tv show character I'd spent dozens.

[@gentlemandemon]

I kind of like how a character losing in video games, especially in relation to a characters in media facing some sort of struggle, has become a short hand for frustration, kind of exemplifying the compounding effect

[@johnblunt5243]

Walking Dead:listen to a line of dialogue that brought you to tears LEE

[@sprigganthebiggan4152]

Was that Aggretsuko, you cheeky little lads

[@cosmicsans67]

I feel like Getting Over It did an amazing job overcoming this challenge, mainly by acknowledging the possibility of failure and even celebrating what you can learn from it I think this might also be a reason I've tended to stay from competitive games lately, but not from tough-as-nails games

[@AdamGentry211]

There's definitely a conundrum in how many approach a game wanting triumph and catharsis, but also needing that resolution to feel uncertain, to feel earned, rather than guaranteed. Of course the primary way to make something feel earned is to make it difficult, and create the possibility of failure. The greater the difficulty, the more rewarding the catharsis, but the greater the risk of frustration through failure. I actually read an article that talked about how many games are actually designed to subtly become easier as the player's stats drop, making it very likely a character will drop to 2/3 or 1/3 health, while slanting against an actual loss. Very interesting stuff, the disguised slant.

[@nerdlingeeksly5192]

If catharsis is the act of passively observing something tragic or terrible to release some Pent up bad stuff does that mean God passively observes us (and the tragic and terrible Deeds we commit) because he secretly has unbridled rage or sorrow

[@tomasmcgrath5766]

But the question most AAA developers are wondering is still how do we monetize these emotional experiences as they take more effort to make and you are not able to put them into loot-boxes.

[@TheFeanor74]

Thank you for the great video. I am a Huuuugh fan for so long and am still looking forward to the next episode. On topic: Yes, there are definitely "those games" that let you experience the personal catharsis and let you feel the weight and impact of your doings, choices and behaviors. There are those "holy s*it" and "wtf" moments. There are those moments in games that left you pondering, thinking and remembering for days or weeks. BUT there are so many games (that are not necessarily bad in any way and a lot of fun to play), where you don't even think a nanosecond about what you are doing. I would say that the "success rate" of games (where the developers intended to impact you) is very, very low and that the "catharsis of doing" is a very rare exception from the rule.

[@myilmazalper]

The whole bit about regret caused my brain to scream internally "Planescape: Torment!!!!!!!!!" To me, regret has never been done better by any work of fiction, and this video helped put the "why" of the game's success into perspective. Great video, thanks EC.

[@ethanc-k8249]

A wonderful philosophy, both unique and encompassing. It’s amazing to see what applying academic attention to games does.

[@PokerRageAH]

About regret. So a few weeks ago I was playing Red Dead Redemption 2 when I came across i homestead i could go into, as per usual in this situation I assumed all npcs in the building hostiles. I ended up killing them both instantly. Upon looting the house i found a note addressed to one of the men and read it. It turned out that when the letter was written, the son (One of the men in the house) was going to see his mother soon, and stay there to get away from his abusive father. When I read that I felt my heart sink, and have carried around a very real sense of guilt.

[@mimicopenthatchest3297]

I could relate to this pretty darn deeply. The first trigger for my onset of my anxiety disorder came from - a bad match in overwatch - compounded on top of the daily abuse and stress I was getting from my abusive parents. My body just couldn't deal with it anymore and started to shut down. It's such a little thing in the grand scheme of things, getting mad at a video game, but it's what triggered the spiral. Pretty scary, that.

[@TheGeniziz]

The negative catharsis of doing also very much applies to multiplayer / online games as well, which is often what leads to people raging during online play.

[@luliby2309]

Agreed on the idea that a lot of toxic behavior coming from players in game is likely due to them not being able to achieve what it is they hope to achieve.

[@jobobaggins4490]

Very well spoken. I've always thought of my preference of the gaming medium over any other medium to be the result of my preference of participation over spectation. I now think it is much deeper than that. This, I shall ponder as I die again and again in Dark Souls, trying to light what is now to me, the Flame of Catharsis.

[@Zorixas]

This... this explains so much... this is exactly what I see in MMOs games and why it's there.

[@bergsving]

Everyone clicked cuz of Undertale

[@ashie_127]

okay

[@mekhifreeman4274]

Nah bro, I clicked because of meme

[@Dewald]

It's like when you save in skyrim and then going on a killing spree then loading the save and continuing the game.

[@salvatronprime9882]

This is a great explanantion why some people (like me) prefer classic games because of their maddening difficulty. Rather than seeing them as antiquated game design, there is catharsis is overcoming seemingly impossible odds and conquering the challenge. This is a different kind of catharsis that is explained in the video but I think it still applies.

[@TheLanCave]

I choose I believe the image at 2:05 is an Aggretsuko reference. Thank you, animator!

[@makkapakkalolz]

You guys make a smarter person every video, I appreciate you Extra credits!!!

[@POZOLEDECARAMELITO]

You said that the only medium where you can feel regret is in video games but I will recommend you the film Funny Games by Michael Haneke, where the entire plot is that the protagonists only make their victims suffer because you want to be entertained.

[@FixYoSelf]

I would really like to learn how to implement cathartic releases in the game so that people always have an opportunity to let go of the built up negativity from losing or making punished choices.

[@st.joanieofarc6115]

1:00 Cuphead (expecially when fighting the last two bosses) can really put me in rage mode. But what about BATIM? How has that game effected our mentaliy? I'm nearly brought to tears whenever i think about Henry's fate. Is that catharsis, or does it add our personal grief and regret? Tell me your thoughts.

[@influenza3736]

0:15 So that's were Valve came from

[@1rrt6yrffruhruheuristicgut]

Nice username

[@margibso]

4:20 I think this also happens in watching sports. I've seen plenty of people rage when things don't go how they want. Maybe all that is necessary is an uncertain outcome.

[@morthasa]

My comment may not have meaningful content, but it spites the KZbin Algorythm, so I'm proud of it anyway.

[@ckkitty]

My reply may not have meaningful content, or spite the KZbin Algorithm, but I’m proud of it anyway.

[@typemasters2871]

The opening statement is interesting Why do humans enjoy doing things that are "not productive", well what is considered "productive"? Art is a form of productivity if productivity is described as doing something, but if the meaning of "productive" is towards one's health and survival then what would humans do? Well if humans only did "productive" activities then an average adult human would be doing one of these activities: eating food, building shelters and clothing for other humans, staying fit, raising humans and earning money for the materials needed to preform the other "productive" activities

[@adamjensen5891]

Speaking of catharsis- I would love for you guys to talk about Brothers sometime! It's the only game that ever got me to cry and low-key changed my life!

[@thecakecraft7724]

Could you think about doing an episode on flavor within games? Not flavor text, but hard coded flavoring that strengthens the playing experience. An example being a main character weilding no weapons and also having a peaceful personality, or how an environment that is desolate and wasteland-like is difficult and hazardous to play in. Stuff like that.

[@asyrdal4059]

I have a question for you guys on the EC team (and others, of course). Spoilers for the ending of *Night in the Woods* below the cut! Okay, so I was watching Dan and Carrie's playthrough of Night in the Woods, and I have to say, this game is impressive. Very intense, psychologically horrifying in a way, and a really interesting play style. I really, really like it. Recently, they just posted a part of the ending, with the cultists. I'm not sure if any of you on the EC team has played it, although I have to assume at least one of you has? My question is regarding Casey Hartley. How do you create a character in a game that you *never* see during your playthrough, that is hardly mentioned in the game to an extent, only ever referenced through little anecdotes or pieces of information...How do you create a character like that and still have their death be mortifyingly upsetting? This has been nagging at me since I watched it because I believe this may be the first time I've ever seen a game do something like this. I'd be interested in a response from *anyone,* so go ahead--share your thoughts! :D

[@mene1in]

This is the first time an Extra Credits intro gave me chills.

[@soul-5]

one of your best episodes, this wad outstanding. well done!

[@dvklaveren]

The insight that games can provide the opposite of catharsis is kind of a mindfuck for me. It's completely logical and it explains so much and I'm surprised it never came up, either as a thought or as something someone explained to me literally in those terms. Cool.

[@Assain125250]

that's one hell of a video to kick off the year, well done.

[@rhistarsinger1033]

Back in the Arcade days, Rampage was my favorite game for mindless, silly violence. So relaxing.

[@vfaulkon]

2:03 - nice Aggrestuko reference. Couldn't have picked a better modern series about catharsis myself. :D

[@unknowndane4754]

Honestly Europa Universalis 4 is a good example where you either become a great power dominating your rivals or you see it all come crashing down

[@lead_downpour8854]

I love the Agretsko reference at 2:05!

[@arnaud7008]

But how do you do it right? (I thought that was the subject)

[@LiefTheBeef]

I love the little crying tear drop, idk why

[@Jetalockhart]

I'll be damned... So this is why I'm so attached to game that is not mainstream... Thank you Extra Credit for a perspective to shape my self...

[@gingerwhale871]

Probably one of your most important episodes

[@Kapin05]

2:05 > sees aggrestsuko > is happy

[@MowseChao]

I played Undertale for the first time just two weeks ago blind and had GENUINE feelings of regret that actually made me feel bad for a little while. Eventually I was fine but yikes. This is strangely relevant to me right now, hah. On the topic of frustration though, for me, I actually NEED some frustration to come out of my game sometimes when I'm trying to release it. It HAS to be hard at first, because the relief and payoff is so much more when I finally accomplish it. I think games can achieve this for me because most of the time, games are generally not as punishing as real life, so it prevents me from getting discouraged.

[@arthurpanetta6224]

I’m so amazed at this video. Thank you for doing such awesome content.

[@CDeniseG]

I know my comment may not matter but I really really appreciate the diversity of people in your animations.

[@DennosDen]

This is one of the things I love about games. I can still remember when I played Bastion *Small SPOILER below!* you are given a choice to forgive and forget or leave to die. Now I completed this game a few times, and remember making up my mind to not forgive this time, to see the other ending, but whenever I stand there with the choice at hand I can never do it, I see the characters struggle and I sympathize with him. Just like you said I believe that I learn something about myself each time a game presents me with this kind of choice.

[@Niklas.K95]

"...( *nearly* ) brought you to tears." Life is Strange, What Remains of Edith Finch,...

[@reireyes1275]

I recently experienced this in Shadow of War. I got it in the Steam winter sale. Trying not to spoil it, but there's a character who you deal with harshly as part of the story, and I felt bad about doing that, even if technically he's in the wrong, meaning he kinda deserves it, and I believe your character makes the right choice (not that you have a choice since the story makes you do it). I don't necessarily regret doing it, as I also agreed with Celebrimbor that it was the right way to go in the grand scheme of things, but that doesn't mean I enjoyed what I had to do. After I run into this particular guy again, and see the negative effects of what I did to him, I actually had to put the game down and walk away for a bit to think about it. Process how I actually felt about the whole situation.

[@justcallmexen]

This made me think of, of all things, Elite Beat Agents. I played a demo of the game (back when walmarts still had a ds attached to a game cabinet to play) and I got to play EBA. I loved the episode playing "September" and was hooked, but then I got to a later and harder level that had a more serious story. It was about a girl who wanted to see her dad again, but he had died. It was a sad tale that was influenced by the rhythm game and for one segment in the middle, I fell behind. So that meant in one scene, I had to witness this girl crying (she was baking a cake?). It was traumatizing, but before I could play again it was time to leave the store. I left, feeling unresolved and never came back to that until years later I owned a ds and found a copy of EBA. I bought it instantly and made sure I'd get to that point and change the future of this little girl for the better, even just for that one instant.

[@sertaki]

This was one of your best videos yet. :) Very much enjoyed it.

[@biglion3179]

2:05 That's Aggretsuko if you're wondering.

[@billylol101]

I pulled the trigger on myself in spec ops the line. I've never felt a moment in media as powerful as that.

[@MihariofMabinogi]

Forgive me if I'm being off-topic, but the regret bit struck a cord with me: depending on how you play games, regret and catharsis may not even be mutually exclusive. I consider myself a rookie achievement hunter, my catharsis comes from looking at my steam page and seeing the number of "perfect" games go up. But in games that have achievements, this could also mean doing something that I wouldn't on my first playthrough (where the choices I make are personal). I've been trying to get all the achievements for Planescape: Torment Enhanced Edition lately and, from a purely gameplay standpoint, the achievements in question aren't even difficult to get. But from an emotional, storytelling standpoint? I couldn't even get past the mortuary on my save for getting the evil/chaotic alignments (among other spoilery achievements) without having to take a break. Why? Because it meant having to be cruel to Deionarra, a character I deeply sympathize with. Knowing her story and still using her, lying to her, passively berating her and seeing her every reaction genuinely hurt. And it hurt more knowing that, if I really wanted these achievements, I couldn't stop at her. I knew that party members that I came to care for during my first playthrough were next. It definitely invoked that feeling of "No, wait! Undo! Go back! Abort! Abort!" But after I had some time to think, I realized that getting all the achievements in more story-heavy games meant something different from the feeling of "Yeah! I did the difficult thing and I have proof!" like more skill-centric games. The catharsis for getting all the achievements in a game like Planescape comes from you understanding the storyteller better by exploring every path they provide. They probably appreciate it to some extent, too, since they worked just as hard on the "bad" choices as they did on the "good".

[@hanneslundin346]

Can you make a video about this but also about undertale, I’m sure you know why since you obviously know what undertale is. Undertale represents everything you’ve talked about today.

[@thegodforger923]

This is why the end of KH 358/2 Days hit me so hard. After not only seeing but living Roxas's life the knowledge that I couldn't save Xion hit me like a ton of bricks. I've beaten then game three times and every time I end up bawling.

[@knight_lautrec_of_carim]

I came for the video games but I have to admit that I enjoy your other videos more by now.

[@perdiendomitiempo6403]

Dammit Extra Credits! You and you're Undertale thumbnail are making me getting late for an appointment. Good video by the way

[@alexanderflood1462]

There's a similar "catharsis of doing" when you're an actor on stage. Do give a truly compelling performance, you have to understand your character and their choices fundamentally, even if they are totally opposite you in their personality or beliefs. As a result, you get a much more visceral understanding of yourself and human nature in general.

[@Panthera_Leo_]

Aaaaand that's why I immediately stop playing any game I'm not having fun with and switch to one that I do have fun with. Even if in so close to completing something, it's not worth it if I don't enjoy the process. Because to me, games are all about sitting back and having a good time.

[@7ambris]

This episode is incredibly important