The Cessationism Debate | Remnant Radio & Doug Wilson

[@brandonvogel86]

What I love about this video is the vibe of “I can disagree with you and still love you at the same time.”

[@DavidZechariah]

Amen. BODY Life . It was ridiculous to see my own Brothers searching for "common ground" (i wonder if We can find it here; not so much, well how bout here, lol-) Knowing We are United In CHRIST. GOD Bless n Keep Ya, Brandon

[@daveonezero6258]

Trinity, Resurection, Omnicient, omnipotent, omnipresent. After that not much else matters. In fact it probably makes the Church stronger.

[@micahhollinger3419]

Yes, so good!

[@ChurchinnameofJESUSCHRIST]

Should be firm and rebuke what do you mean all be friendly chill and get on Not when it's against the word of truth. No compromise

[@staceyhunter23]

Likewise 💜

[@mitchharpur]

Great conversation. When brothers discuss areas of agreement and disagreement in a charitable way it is not only informing but edifying.

[@chriswrightcook]

I appreciate you and your ministry, as a charismatic, hearing you, as a cessationist, say “I don’t think we win without the charismatics” was very humbling. God bless you

[@barnhouseexplosion3020]

I appreciated that too until he insulted his guests by saying he would like to think they’re not really really crazy too. Unfortunately Joel comes across as rude, arrogant, and prideful, which is sadly the way many reformed Christians come across. And I say this as a reformed Christian of a very conservative Presbyterian perspective. Doug Wilson, on the other hand, seemed humble and gracious.

[@chriswrightcook]

@@barnhouseexplosion3020 I agree, that’s something he needs to work on. But out of all the reformed cessationists who have ministries on Social Media, he definitely came across as much more charitable than any of the John MacArthur tribe.

[@eddyskripko4595]

@@chriswrightcookkind of like Chris Rosebrough. The way he trash talks and condemns Josh and Michael is inexcusable to me

[@vigilantezack]

@@barnhouseexplosion3020 Is that really how they come across? Or you just like to make yourself think so because of their confidence? If I survey my experience watching Christians across many social media channels and the pits of comment boxes everywhere, it's not the reformed going around attacking everyone else, but they are constantly under attack and insulted BY other just like you did here. Because they boldly proclaim truth that they are supremely confident in, they get labeled "arrogant, prideful" which is perhaps unwarranted. We live in a culture where the only people (apparently) who are allowed to display the most confidence in their personal opinions about things are either global warming alarmists and trans kids. Everybody else is supposed to act like nothing they say is really likely to be true at all. Labeling others arrogant simply because they believe what they say unapologetically is just a rhetorical device and isn't what arrogant means. Joel is not even close to being wrong by mentioning "crazy charismatics", because they ARE crazy. These are the very Christians that embarras the entire church with their out of control thematics and screaming and jumping about yelling jibberish. They are the ones demanding buckets of cash to hand out blessings and gifts, and turning "church service" into an unhinged madhouse. When most people think of "charasmatic" they don't immediately have a vision of a humble person pleading with God for a healing for a person in need. They think of some wild TV nut jumping around bopping people on the head with a bible and shouting FIRE! as they fall to the ground flailing around. They think of demon hunters casting out demons of allergies and whatever else. You don't tend to think of charismatics as calm pleasant people, just like you don't think of reformed as humble. If we want to cross these divides, we have to start understanding each other. Reformed or cessasionists aren't all doctrine-centered bible thumpers who think God is dead and doesn't work in his church any more, and charasmatics aren't all unhinged loonies.

[@dmeek20]

​@@barnhouseexplosion3020I'm pretty sure we can take that as dudes who know and love each other, giving each other a hard time. This is the way men in close relationship speak to each other. He stated at the beginning that they're friends and they know one another. They all took playful shots at one another the entire time. We can be too sensitive

[@ChosenInHim]

This video really set the standard for what all discussion/debates should look like. Too often, the remnant guys are treated as heretics. However, that is not the case. Bravo guys!

[@garyurtiaga9426]

As a cessationist, I sometime am told by my continuationist friends that my beliefs limit God. My position isn’t to limit God, it is to define what is “normative” in Christian life, and what is not. Cessationists whole heartedly agree that God may do whatever he pleases. Man cannot do whatever he pleases.

[@RCGWho]

Normative is supposed to be the book of Acts.

[@danielwarton5343]

@@RCGWhoif that’s true then why aren’t we seeing the true church being added to in thousands and people speaking real foreign languages. Handkerchiefs being sent out and people being healed, the lame being raised up at the word of God, people being raised from the dead, real words of God being given, people walking out of prisons as angels open the doors, new words of God being added to the Bible?

[@RCGWho]

@danielwarton5343 New words of God being added to the Bible? I wasn't advocating for that, but much of what you listed does take place, just not all on the same day to the same person. My understanding of personal prophecy is that its purpose is the encouragement, edification, and comfort of the person being ministered to. It also may contain words of knowledge including personal information not known to the prophet. I do believe a lot of why we don't see more of this and genuine and signs and wonders is unbelief, so we don't ask and we don't receive anything. As for the "real foreign languages", I have 2 replies. First, I have heard testimonies over the years of people hearing their actual native tongue being spoken by other believers. The second is that there are 2 different passages about tongues. In one passage in Acts that you are referencing that happened. In another passage, the tongue, or what some call their "prayer language", the tongue is known only to God. (1 Corinthians 14:2) I believe this distinction is between a personal, intimate tongue and the gift of a tongue with interpretation . Some of the daily prophets on yt who just seem to be arms of the republican party I find bizarre and wouldn't recommend them to anybody.

[@RCGWho]

@danielwarton5343 Furthermore. Lol You and I cannot know all the testimonies of what is currently going on worldwide. If we only knew all that God is doing just today, you could fill books. Also, if per chance you are fellowshipping only with people of the DTS persuasion, you either won't be hearing them or you'd be dissing them. It's almost like sharing testimonies with an atheist. They will have an explanation for every miracle. Most Christians function like practical atheists. It's weird because so many are Calvinists and think God is sovereign in all things, but not in miracles. I'm rambling. That's my take.

[@johornbuckle5272]

@@RCGWho whilst trying to make a decision on whether the continuationist position was right, i asked God to guide me. I expected to be guided to a church that was charismatic. Instead i was guided to the teaching of a pastor based in Houston, who was taught by Lewis Sperry Chafer. Remakable, as i am english and have never been to the US. No internet 40 years ago.

[@annababcock3948]

Douglas Wilson is a national treasure. I'm only sorry I discovered him so late in life. He has a wonderful "gift" of bringing out the best in people. Praise God! Thank you Pastor Joel for another informative and insightful show.

[@christianuniversalist]

You need to get out more

[@George-o8k-b4t]

@@christianuniversalistrun along again

[@George-o8k-b4t]

@@christianuniversalistmaybe change your username to universalist. That would be accurate. What you have it as now is not

[@michellebaran5933]

I so appreciate that you had The Remnant Radio on your show! I think too many cessationists refuse to consider their arguments. I used to kind of default to cessationism, but after hearing their Biblical support for continuationism, on their channel, they've convinced me. Simply based on Scripture.so glad to see believers not dividing over this.

[@katherinetope2650]

Agreed 💯 %

[@ProphetGreg94]

That's right.

[@MeanBeanComedy]

Well there's your problem. Solo scriptura.

[@michellebaran5933]

@@MeanBeanComedy nobody's adding to the canon-

[@Charlene-y9i]

​@@MeanBeanComedy dont read something into scripture that isnt there

[@lewislibre]

As a former charismatic and now a cessationist. I totally agree with I don’t feel like I’m missing out on anything regarding the sign gifts. Most of the time I just tend to shake my head at what I use to believe.

[@ReLair88]

Apparently you've never heard a word of knowlwedge or a dream that came true. I have heard quite a few from others (which I witnessed) plus words of knowledge/dreams I had myself--that came to pass. It's impossible to deny once you witness that. Most of them were ones I had. And my healings (2 of them) were from words of knowledge from another person.

[@Sergio-xs7zq]

⁠@@ReLair88u have more chances with a soothsayer then men with “words of knowledge “ which modern prophets even predict marriages and finances that don’t come to pass most times .

[@lewislibre]

@@ReLair88 what were you healed from?

[@ReLair88]

@@lewislibre I was healed twice due to words of knowledge followed by prayer. The one above was high blood pressure which I had been on medication for over a year, which is exactly what the person told me int he word. He also said, the dr. made you increase your medication dosage this past week because your BP was higher--and you were mad. That was exactly right. I went off the meds and my blood pressure was normal from then on. I went to the nurse at IBM, where I worked, several times a week to have it checked for a few weeks and it was always normal. And also was normal at dr appts. The other one was nine years later--I had right hip pain to the point I couldn't stand or walk for very long. The person said it was right hip pain, a woman, and how long I'd had it. It was gone instantly after three people prayed for me for about 2-3 minutes. I felt it go. And it has never once hurt me since then.

[@lewislibre]

@saintvanguard Doug never said he doesn’t believe in healing. I think you need to learn what cessationist actually means

[@paulmcwhorter]

The body of Christ is edified by respectful conversations like this. These are deep, profound, and important topics, and we all benefit by respectful conversations like this. Too many times such discussions devolve into shouting matches, and pompous arrogance on the part of the participants. I hope you continue to do more discussions like this around areas of disagreement among sincere, genuine bible believers. I was blessed by this video.

[@FrankinSmiththeology]

Still one is right and the other is wrong . Cessationists are still trying

[@paulmcwhorter]

@@FrankinSmiththeology I have not stated my position on the topic. Also, I would not be so presumptuous as to assume I have come down perfectly on every one of the finer points of doctrine, though I have studied the Bible daily for the last 30 years. I am still trying to understand it more perfectly, and I find civil discourse more edifying than angry debate and name calling.

[@FrankinSmiththeology]

@@paulmcwhorter Who called someone a name?

[@FrankinSmiththeology]

@@paulmcwhorter Once you figure out that calvanism has come to pervert the Gospel then you will realize it's a work of satan and use the Authority of God against it

[@paulmcwhorter]

@@FrankinSmiththeology Certainly not you. I am referring to how discussions like the one in this video typically go. Accusing the other side of not being saved and such. There are profoundly deep questions associated with rightly dividing the word of God, and the issue of cessationism is one of them.

[@noclueforid]

That's how you discuss differences. No name calling or mocking. Great job!

[@josiahsmiley8477]

A wonderful example of Christian charity among brothers who disagree. Finding common ground while still challenging one another. Fantastic example for all of us.

[@Bob_the_Believer]

They will know we are Christians by our love. I believe that all four of these men are my brothers and it fills my heart my heart to see them treat each other that way in a public forum like this. Truly wish it happened more often.

[@TheCookFamilyHomestead]

Thank you for this video! I am reformed in my beliefs and a continuist. Most of my friends are cessationists and this video really gave me a lot of confidence in my beliefs and what the Bible teaches! Love Doug Wilson! Appreciate Remnant Radio. Thankful for this conversation.

[@nangephriam1211]

You are not alone. I'm a continuist myself. Scripture have clearly shown that 9 gifts of the Spirit are operative today as it was in the beginning. One thing as continuist we should hold fast to the sovereignty of God.

[@toughguy8228]

These continuationists actually gave the best responses that I’ve heard from their side. Cool to see some guys actually stand their ground in a respectful manner. They didn’t persuade me, not even close. But still interesting.

[@ScalpNinjaTrader]

Being raised in a prophetic environment. I just feel cessationist are doing themselves a disservice. Having someone prophecy your very thoughts and things you have been praying about to confirm that God actually knows you personally and is infact listening and knows the very utterances of your own personal heart, is an amazing experience and is life giving.

[@romchik2500]

It’s almost impossible to persuade anyone who deliberately refuses to believe. Jesus’s resurrection didn’t persuade Pharisees that he is an authentic Messiah either. Your disbelief is amazing!

[@ronlanter6906]

I thought this was great, I appreciate you debating this. As a "cessationist", I have very few "continuationist" friends but this showed me a way to open up the discussion lovingly and assuredly ✝

[@HeLivesForever25]

An observation from a continuationist: if a word is spoken in tongues, it must be interpreted to edify the body. If it not going to be interpreted, then it is between the believer in God. Either way, no one, including the one speaking in tongues, knows what they are saying, so what it sounds like doesn't matter. We can call it gibberish. We can call it an angelic language or language of heaven. We can call it a human language. None of that matters. It's either interpreted or kept to ourselves. So what it sounds like doesn't mean anything.

[@georgeluke6382]

Joel, you keep doing a great job of having guys talk with eachother. Stop it now, or the Church is going to mature, and we’re going to see more of that postmillenial maturity hope thing you keep going on about! Happy New Year brother. Thank you for the labor here! Praise the Lord for all of you!

[@RightResponseMinistries]

😂

[@TheRemnantRadio]

😂

[@RightResponseMinistries]

@@TheRemnantRadio you see that Remnant Radio. Some people actually view me as a reasonable person. 😂

[@FrankinSmiththeology]

More of these videos will wake people up to the falseness of cessation

[@georgeluke6382]

Lord willing it'll help people realize the falseness of people over-emphasizing distinctions in a way that's not steel manning opponents, and tearing apart the Body when we could be working together to bring the Gospel to the nations- even while having real disagreements.

[@konjefamily1162]

I find it odd at minute 51:33 there about Mr Rowntree describes prophetic word, with a vague letters and / or numbers voiced out to the group gathered. Flip over to clips of Char or Jonathan Edwards and these ‘mediums’ or mediums are speaking the exact same language. When I open my bible I see nothing that looks even vaguely like Mr Rowntrees description

[@christopherlawrence4377]

Thank you all for sitting down and talking. Praying the church is edified. Grateful to God for all of you and your ministries.

[@silver292]

Joel was bang on at the end there, about him disagreeing with cessationista attitude. "I dont think we win without the charismatics". Dang that's so good.

[@paulfeghali3286]

Just echoing what others have already said: this video is a huge favor to the body of Christ. Thank you Br. Joel for setting the tone. Your brotherly love for each of the guests is apparent, and you brought me nearly to tears with "I don’t think we win without the charismatics." As your "side" humbly learns from charismatics, it will smooth the road for them---even some of the fringier, wackier ones---to also be willing to learn from the important things you have to say.

[@calebeversmith]

If tongues and prophecy are “sign gifts” exclusively for the use of confirming apostles then why does Paul instruct the corinthian believers (not apostles) on how to use those gifts?

[@clancyortmann4698]

I've been in an in-between space on Cessationism for years. This friendly debate has helped answer some of my personal wondering, especially about how healing and prophecy are handled on each side.

[@ethanrichard4950]

Good to hear. I'd also say that such a topic, shortened down to about an.hour, doesn't fully cover the scope, and so I'd encourage other videos, but this was enlightening.

[@masterdaveedwards]

It is good to see brothers coming together over a topic that can be difficult and divisive. There certainly is a great deal of false teaching and the number of false teachers is incredible. Thanks for the heavy lifting and the example of brothers dwelling together in peace regardless of the differences. Shalom and Happy New Year.

[@johnjosephmanimtim2853]

Bro really said "Paul and Matthias are half-cheeking it on the throne in Heaven" @9:43 😂😂😂

[@StoneysWorkshop]

i heard the same thing haha

[@TreeOfLifeWoodworking]

😂

[@Steelfish1]

That was an awesome surprise to see this debate come up on my feed. I've listened to all involved to various levels and respect all. I really enjoyed the subject and the tone of the debate. I'm on the reformed side of things, but somewhat uneasy with hard cessation doctrine as I have seen and read and experienced too much. I was pleasantly surprised at Joel and Doug's openness and experiences. I am very wary of charismatics that overemphasize gifts of the spirit. These movements become, from my perspective, subject to false prophets and charletons. On the flip side reformed churches can be dead to the power of God, to just as great a detriment. Anyway, I was very blessed by this and I think others will be too.

[@thecrypt5823]

Amen, well said. This was a great conversation.

[@vdominguez355]

Like most doctrines*

[@yj-in-the-world]

Totally agree with you

[@AslanRising]

Prophecy must first be defined, before it can be defended.

[@nerychristian]

Being able to say something that will come true in the future

[@CharlieJulietSierra]

@@nerychristian Pretty simple!

[@davidhanlon1158]

Great discussion. I appreciate both sides of the Argument. I am not a Cessationist but appreciate their views on Scripture, Apostles. My fence that i can't seem to get over is the instruction by Paul to eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. But i continue to listen to folks from the reformed side as i believe much of what they teach. The five Solas, the more Calvinistic side of faith.

[@semper_reformanda_1517]

I’m really pumped to hear this debate!

[@briansolomon9648]

Most importantly, I see the love between brothers. Thank you for this conversation

[@nickolascook744]

Thank you Joel for this debate I love that you guys debated with charity as brothers

[@kryptic8956]

Doug asked some very, very good questions.

[@CharlieJulietSierra]

Yes, and the responses were just terrible. Why can't these guys stay focused on answering the questions directly? Every single response was evasive and misdirected.

[@matthewashman1406]

​@@CharlieJulietSierrafrom your side of the fence

[@RoyceVanBlaricome]

Just finished it. Bravo Zulu and kudos to all of you. We NEED MUCH MORE of this!

[@kitthorton9860]

This entire interview was a solid W. You've made a fan today

[@Naomi_OB]

Excited to hear this discussion!

[@ianchappell2203]

Wonderful debate. Very informative and engaging.

[@rickjohnson6818]

I really appreciate this graceful conversation. Everything that proceeds from our mouths as with our thoughts needs to be brought into captivity and subject to the authority of Christ in conjunction with the mindfulness that we will be held accountable with stricter judgement for leading someone astray, intentional or not...regardless if we hold the office of teacher or not. The same goes for prophesy and evangelism. I'm a Cessationalist/Calvinist/Baptist/Charismatic in the sense that I believe the authoritative offices of Apostles and Prophets have ceased but the supernatural manifestations gifted by the Holy Spirit are still very much needed today as they were the day the Church was born on Pentecost, especially those of wisdom and discernment. I don't attend a Charismatic Church because it's been my experience that Christians tend to fall into one of two camps: those who are over obsessed with supernatural experiences and those who are uncomfortable with even talking about the possibility. I prefer to hang with those who prefer sound Gospel doctrine over thrilling experiences, not that I haven't had my fair share of the latter. I wish both camps could have more of these discussions with each other.

[@ronlanter6906]

I am a *Particular Baptist* (reformed like Charles Spurgeon). I believe that term might describe your denomination also. My church is a member of *FIRE (the Fellowship of Independent Reformed Evangelicals)*

[@rickjohnson6818]

@@ronlanter6906 I really like FIRE's doctrinal statements. Our Church isn't strictly baptist but is conservative, evangelical reformed and part of a global network of small churches called the Great Commission Collective. There, the sign gifts are not to be overtly expressed at any of our meetings due to the greater charismatic movement's emphasis of them as evidence of a believer over the evidence of the Holy Spirit's work of producing a Holy life in the believer. I might pray in tongues privately out of earshot of those who don't understand what I'm speaking...after all, the purpose of communication is to be understood by the listener and collective prayer is communication.

[@kimmurphy72]

One great suggestion- God Doesn’t Whisper by Jim Osman

[@rinihogewoning6528]

​@@galaxyguy7579Like the person said, you need to watch "God Doesn't Whisper".

[@rinihogewoning6528]

@@galaxyguy7579 Have you heard the difference between descriptive/narrative and prescriptive application of scripture?

[@kimmurphy72]

@@galaxyguy7579 Where exactly do you see “whisper” in that Scripture you quoted?? God spoke to Elijah. There was no “whispering” involved.

[@kimmurphy72]

@@galaxyguy7579 “Gentle blowing”, “still small voice”, doesn’t say “whisper”.

[@kimmurphy72]

@@galaxyguy7579 And v 13b clearly says “And a voice came to him and said…” Again, no whispering. If and when God wants to speak, He doesn’t whisper.

[@JonJaeden]

I found most of Doug's concerns about prophecy to be confused. Paul says tongues+interpretation is equivalent to prophecy (1 Cor 14:5), and the only example we're given of that is on the Day of Pentecost when the Apostles' speaking in tongues was interpreted by the native speakers who heard them. The Apostles weren't creating Scripture. They weren't predicting the future. They were -- according to those who heard and interpreted them -- "declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues." Likewise in the Corinthian church where everyone was speaking in a tongue at once, they weren't crowd-sourcing Scripture sans interpretation. Neither were the two or three tongues and prophecies allowed by Paul's corrected order of worship meant to create Scripture. Where is the textual criticism that identifies evidence of the New Testament's patchwork compilation from what would have been thousands of individuals scattered across the Roman world? How were all those by-products of the gift of prophecy gathered in one place to create the finished canon? Did Peter, Paul, Mark, Luke, John and Jude cut-and-paste without giving due credit? Frankly, if the Scripture does not say the gifts have ceased (and my reading explicitly says they continue), then there's no reason to believe cessationists would not have expressed the same concerns and objections in A.D.54, when 1 Corinthians was written, that they express today.

[@SerenityNow22]

52:52 “why the code?” Because it increases the chance of the “prophecy” coming “true”. Casts a broad net and congregants desperate for “healing” will make whatever code work for them. Satan/demons can also make a person ill/hurt and then remove the illness/hurt upon fake healing. This part of the discussion was painful. God never ever worked this way in scripture. Moses: “I’m looking for someone with a relative named Susan and to whom the number 5 means something” 🫠

[@stevenjohnson3883]

Amen!!! This is a form of cold reading!

[@wesley_lewis]

This was one of the most profitable conversations on this topic I have ever heard. So very thankful for this! Great job, brothers!

[@gianthebaptist]

16:40 Doug's question is a nail in the coffin. The remnant guy answers with massive coping as to why there can be errors in "prophecy". There's a reason they can't have 100% accuracy standard, and it's because all those who claim to be prophets are bold face liars.

[@gianthebaptist]

​@@galaxyguy7579 His answer was literally "well sometimes Scripture is hard to understand" wth does that have to do with anything 😂 apples to oranges. Scripture has a clear test for those who claim to be prophets, and there is no room for error.

[@rinihogewoning6528]

​@@gianthebaptistGreat comment. There is no wiggle room for error. If you could still stone people for false prophecies in the name of God, I am sure many would stop trying to act like prophets.

[@rayortiz6189]

@@galaxyguy7579which prophet in scripture misunderstood the prophecy given to them?

[@tomtemple69]

@@galaxyguy7579 stop worshipping Scripture, thats idolatry

[@rickjohnson6818]

All? "All those who claim to be prophets are bold faced liars?" I agree that everyone needs to be more careful regarding what they say, especially when making accusations about people they've most likely never met. The world is a big place and God is still working in the deepest, darkest parts of it. To claim He has no prophets working, healing and teaching where no one else dare tread is a mighty big assertion. I agree there are those who seek attention, glory and respect, especially in the west. If a real prophet were to walk on our streets, he certainly wouldn't want the position because he'd be an outcast and wouldn't be accepted within the greater body of Christ because as Biblical history teaches us, prophets are always rejected, persecuted, slandered and most likely killed for what comes out of their mouths.

[@katherinetope2650]

I am an ardent fan of Doug, and I am reformed but the scriptural basis for spiritual gifts is hands down on the continuationist's side. I was actually shocked about how gracious this conversation was considering the divisiveness the new G3 movie has stirred up. This is causing havoc in our fellowship with true believers in our area. In fact--one of my very good friends felt like I needed to have an INTERVENTION because I simply believe what Paul wrote in Corinthians. I have yet to see any truly coherent BIBLICAL arguments that show me why I need to listen to man's theological gymnastics rather than holding fast to the actual words of God. I feel like the talking heads in this debate have been very reckless and very disingenuous and ungracious and have succeeded in scaring lots of believers and causing separation, suspicion and division from one another. It's heartbreaking, truly, so, thank you for a cordial discussion. Also, to your last question-- i think you're missing out on obedience to the Lord by despising prophecy and negating the clear teaching of Scripture.

[@chriswrightcook]

100% agree with this comment.

[@hardboard82]

Here’s the biblical argument that convinced me of cessationism (I compiled several comments where I described my position elsewhere): I believe the Bible says some (prophecies, tongues, knowledge) Spiritual gifts have ceased (1 Corinthians 13:8-12). They ceased when the perfect came. Those verses give multiple illustrations of a “partial to complete” theme. The “perfect” is the whole and complete canon of scripture (I will argue for this later), allowing us to see face to face like a perfectly polished mirror. Now that the canon has closed and we are no longer adding new books to the Bible as some sort of expanded edition of God’s eternally perfect word, the gifts of prophecies, tongues, and knowledge have fulfilled their purpose and are no longer in effect today. I will give some reasoning for why I think “the perfect” is in reference to the completed canon of scripture rather than the return of the morally perfect Christ Jesus: The canon of scripture closed when the last book of the Bible was written by John (Revelation 1:1-2). Man does not declare what the canon of scripture shall be; rather God speaks and creates His canon which He has preserved through the ages since it was first given. I’ve heard some say the canon wasn’t complete until the Protestant reformation; this is false. Because nobody prior to the Protestant Reformation was waiting for God to give His final words to be included in the Bible, His canon had already been canonized well before the Protestant Reformation. Now in 1 Corinthians, chapters 12-14 are dealing heavily with spiritual gifts. At the time of Paul’s writing, the Corinthians were absolutely called to earnestly desire those gifts (12:31, 14:1, 14:5), but even more still to love each other with unity in the same Spirit (12:4,13:1-13). And even more than speaking in tongues too, Paul says it is better for the church not to be infantile in their thinking but to instead be mature men through sharing interpretable prophecies given specifically for the sake of building up the church (14:19-20, 22, 3-5). So, prophecies build up the church. Likewise, God’s canonized Word is given to make the church wise for salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, and all scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching/reproof/correction/training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work (2 Timothy 3:15-17). In relation to scripture equipping the man of God for every good work and “completing” him, it is helpful to finally consider “the perfect” referenced in 1 Corinthians 13:10. The Greek used in 1 Corinthians 13:10 for the perfect is τέλειος/teleios. This word does not exclusively mean “morally perfect,” although it certainly can include a sense of moral perfection. But this word is often used elsewhere in scripture to reference perfection in terms of being finished, or fully grown, or adult, or mature, or lacking nothing in completeness. In fact, this same word is used in 1 Corinthians 14:20 telling them to be τέλειος/teleios, translated as to be “men”. It simply isn’t true when you assert that the “perfect” has no basis for being in reference to the canon of scripture. Paul says to be men (stop speaking/thinking/reasoning like a child 1 Corinthians 13:11) through the means of pursuing prophecies, which are given to the church for building up the church. This too is what scripture is for, but scripture is preserved whereas prophecies will cease (1 Corinthians 13:10). The prophecies allowed them to see themselves reflected dimly in somewhat-polished metal, but when the canon was completed they could see themselves as in a perfectly polished mirror (i.e. face to face). This aligns with how scripture “completes” the man of God and equips us for absolutely every single good work. To offer a bit more elaboration on why I don’t think “face-to-face” is in reference to us looking at Christ’s face someday, I want to take “face-to-face” in 1 Corinthians 13:12 naturally and contextually. It is talking about seeing in a dim mirror and then, when the perfect comes, we will see face-to-face. Notice that it doesn’t start verse 12 by saying they saw in a “mirror,” but rather it says they saw in a “mirror dimly”. You have to consider that when Paul wrote this letter, they didn’t have mirrors like we have today in 2023. The mirrors in their time were made from polished metal, but those dim mirrors did not produce the seemingly perfect reflection we have today in our modern mirrors. So Paul is saying that, like a child someday finally becoming a man, or like polished metal finally becoming totally polished so that you can see “face-to-face” when you look at it, so too the “perfect” (completed; final state) canon of scripture will allow for the partial (prophecy) to pass away. Proverbs 27:19 also uses the concept of “seeing face-to-face” when talking about looking in still water. So, very often the phrase “face-to-face” isn’t meant to be taken literally where two different people are staring at each other, but rather it often means one person sees themselves clearly in a reflection. Being able to see yourself “face-to-face” held a bit more weight back then because they didn’t have modern mirrors or cameras to see themselves clearly all the time. Objection: We won’t be morally perfect or complete/mature until we’re in heaven. Response: ​​⁠ You’re saying we won’t be perfect/complete/mature until we are in heaven with Christ and made as such. What then do you make of 2 Timothy 3:17 where it says that scripture (the Bible) is given to us (right here today) so that the men of God (us) may be “perfect” (complete), equipped for every good work? I mentioned 2 Timothy 3:17 recognizing that it is indeed a different underlying Greek word, but as I understand the verses we’re discussing, those words mean perfect in the same sense. That is, I don’t think either 2 Timothy 3:17 or 1 Corinthians 13:10 deal with “moral” perfection. Rather, my understanding is that both verses are speaking of perfection in terms of “completion”. I appreciate that you recognize how you would cede the argument if 2 Timothy 3:17 used Telios instead of Artios (and obviously I think your reasoning there would be sound haha), but if both words overlap in definitions of perfection/completeness, then it still seems like a reasonable interpretation to use back in 1 Corinthians 13. In addition to the reasons above, I also just don’t see how “moral” perfection fits the context of 1 Corinthians 13 when it seems more so to be emphasizing a partial-to-complete theme. Objection: The canon can’t “know” us as described in 1 Corinthians 13:12. Response: ​​⁠ Your argument on “knowing as we are known” is part of what I’ll want to study a bit more when I have more time. On the surface it seems like a decent argument against my overall understanding of that passage, but I need more time to consider just how “personally” it should be taken. My (often-flawed-and-in-need-of-further-sanctification) intuition is uncomfortable saying things like “scripture is an object that doesn’t know us personally”. Hebrews 4:12 describes scripture in a way that seems quite personal to me, as it is God’s word, living and active, piercing, and even “discerning” the thoughts and intentions of the heart. But again, I’d like to study what you’re saying a bit more. Those are just some of the cuff thoughts. I don’t think I’m logically concluding that “the completed book made of paper and leather” know me and I stand face-to-face with it. There is a necessary distinction between our transcription of God’s Word and God’s Word itself. I am arguing that the perfect is “the canon” rather than “the written”. Really not trying to nitpick but I think it matters since you brought it up. It isn’t the paper and leather that knows us, nor is it the Bible app on my phone or Blue Letter Bible. But it is the word of God that is truly able to discern the thoughts and intentions of our hearts (Hebrews 4:12). If the word of God can do that discerning, it seems fair to me to think that it could also do the knowing of 1 Corinthians 13:12. I don’t understand why you doubled down on the assertion that the necessary logical conclusion for me would be that the perfect that knows me would be “the completed book made of paper and leather.” All I’m saying is that is not how I am defining the “canon of scripture” to which my whole argument refers. If every paper and leather book in the world were to burn tomorrow, my argument would be unaffected because that’s not what I think the canon of scripture is. I’m arguing for the “perfect” being the canon of scripture defined as “every jot and tittle of God’s word that has been intentionally preserved by God through man for all future generations.” Not every working of God has been intended to be preserved for all, but the Lord gives and the Lord takes. We have the canon God wants us to have, no matter what form we have it in (books, computers, memory, etc.). ​​⁠ Objection: “Face to face” refers to us seeing God. Response: And regarding the face-to-face points, I don’t deny that the phrase does indeed mean “one person to another” sometimes. All I am pointing out is that it is Biblically permissible for the phrase “face-to-face” to be in reference to seeing oneself in a reflection. This is what is happening in Proverbs 27:19 if you look at the phrase in Hebrew.

[@johornbuckle5272]

@@hardboard82 you have it all there and when presented in this way it seems straightforward and easy to see that the continuationists are lead by wanting something that is not prescribed for us now.

[@BEABEREAN10]

​@@hardboard82I noticed at least some of this came from a prior conversation with me. Curious how you have come to understand "know as we are known"...and I wonder if you've considered this the partial and complete that is being referenced instead. Because like I said previously, right now we only have a partial knowledge of Christ but then when we stand face to face we will know fully as we are known. Does this make sense? Again, that word know is more than just discerning, it's actually the relational word for knowing someone personally.

[@andrewmattiewalter]

​@@hardboard82this is one of the weakest arguments for cessationism.

[@Pastor_Grant]

I'm with Rosebrough. So dangerous saying "God told me ...."

[@ifeifesi]

People say it so lightly not realising they are putting words into God's mouth just as the false prophets God talks about in Scripture do.

[@TKK0812]

Have you ever prayed and asked God if you should take a certain job or move your family to be missionaries etc. Do you believe God actually responds to your prayers and answers them or not? If He does answer them, then in what sense is it wrong to say "I believe God told me to take this job" or "I believe God is calling us to the mission feel". We can get into semantics but at the end of the day, it's still God speaking to us, no? If God can respond to our prayers and speak to us, why is it so outlandish a claim to say that God could speak to me for someone else? We're called to test and weigh everything, of course. I see you're a pastor, which means you likely preach. Do you have perfect theology? If not, should we say teaching is dangerous because you may speak authoritatively on God's written word and be incorrect as you speak on His behalf?

[@Izthefaithful]

@@TKK0812I feel like you are arguing a point he’s not making in this comment thread

[@TKK0812]

@@Izthefaithful The OP said it's dangerous to say "God told me". I responded to that. In what way am I responding to something the OP wasn't saying?

[@Izthefaithful]

@@TKK0812 Lo siento mi amigo Confusión maybe 🤷‍♀️

[@ryanjwalters]

This was absolutely phenomenal. If only the Church would be more Spirit led in such a unifying, God-honoring conversation from fellow brothers.

[@Deacondan240]

I was a closet Pentecostal going to an orthodox Presbyterian church for 27 years. Great place to be grounded and serve the body. But the Spirit led me to an AOG church (imperfect but asking of God). I have grown in Spiritual gifts of knowledge and prophecy. Not a lot or all the time, but it happens. Also, praying in the spirit, solo on tongues is a blessing for the Spirit lead church that allows Him to guide prayer. So my reply to the question, What has happened to convince ?, is that the workings of the gifts show God’s authorative power and builds the faith of the believer to trust God to move and not to trust our own power and wisdom by over stepping via theology alone. God wants faith and action.

[@VeryBasicBible]

Wait, what's this?! Why wasn't I told about this??!! Judging by the comments, this is a super great discussion. Can't wait to listen!

[@TheReader6]

“Mathias and Paul half cheeking it.” This quote is the best thing ever!

[@rbelf001]

As a veteran of many churches I can say I refuse to go to go to any church professing signs and wonders. When people profess they can call down Miracles I run the other way. Miracles happen all the time. They have happened to me and most assuredly to you as well. God intervines in our lives when we least expect it. I have never found those churches to be healthy or sound or those people fun to be around.

[@michaellautermilch9185]

Just a thought to consider, the counterfeits don't disprove the real thing. I'm a continuationist, and I also freely admit that most of the whackos are on my side.

[@matthewashman1406]

Well God healed me instantly when I was prayed for in a meeting. As for all the excess ,well so what. Do people go to excess when in love ,yup . But that doesn't nullify that love is good and real

[@isaacseabra5669]

Remnant radio cannot affirm that the prophets they have can speak infalliby, or their whole system falls and they have no prophets.

[@AslanRising]

Important distinction made by Doug. We do not find reason in Scripture to doubt God heals, that God performs miracles, in our time, what we do not find reason in Scripture is that God does so by gifting one with the power of healing.

[@JonJaeden]

Please cite the Scripture. The gift of healing was active while the canon was being written. Your assertion doesn't make sense.

[@AslanRising]

@@JonJaeden what was the purpose of healing by Jesus and the Apostles?

[@JonJaeden]

@@AslanRising Purpose of healing? A single purpose? I don't think God has told us that. What we have are healings that occur under different circumstances. We have context, but what one person might see as the purpose, another might see as the result. Let's start with Jesus. Here's a few ... *** He did only what the Father showed him, which includes his healings "So Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.'" -- John 5:19 *** Fulfilling Old Testament prophecy "That evening they brought to him many who were oppressed by demons, and he cast out the spirits with a word and healed all who were sick. This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: 'He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.'" -- Mt 8:16-17 *** Healing was what the Messiah was annointed to do and went hand-on-hand with the gospel “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed," -- Luke 4:18 "And he went throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom and healing every disease and every affliction among the people." -- Matthew 4:23 *** Being attested by God that Jesus was sent by him “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know ..." - Acts 2:22 *** Causing the Jews to glorify God "And great crowds came to him, bringing with them the lame, the blind, the crippled, the mute, and many others, and they put them at his feet, and he healed them, so that the crowd wondered, when they saw the mute speaking, the crippled healthy, the lame walking, and the blind seeing. And they glorified the God of Israel." -- Matthew 15:30-31 *** Opposing Pharisees while asserting his claim that "the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath." "Jesus said to him, 'Get up, take up your bed, and walk.' And at once the man was healed, and he took up his bed and walked. Now that day was the Sabbath. So the Jews said to the man who had been healed, 'It is the Sabbath, and it is not lawful for you to take up your bed.'" -- John 5:8-10 "And the scribes and the Pharisees watched him, to see whether he would heal on the Sabbath, so that they might find a reason to accuse him." -- Luke 6:7 "At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. But when the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, 'Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath.' [Jesus said], 'I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. ... For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.'” -- Matthew 12:1-2,6,8 *** Showing compassion "As they were going away, behold, a demon-oppressed man who was mute was brought to him. And when the demon had been cast out, the mute man spoke ... And Jesus went throughout all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom and healing every disease and every affliction. When he saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matthew 9:32-33,35-36 "And stopping, Jesus called them and said, 'What do you want me to do for you?' They said to him, 'Lord, let our eyes be opened.' And Jesus in pity touched their eyes, and immediately they recovered their sight and followed him." -- Matthew 20:32-34 *** Being responsive to people's need as he encountered it "When the crowds learned it, they followed him, and he welcomed them and spoke to them of the kingdom of God and cured those who had need of healing." -- Luke 9:11 "While he was saying these things to them, behold, a ruler came in and knelt before him, saying, 'My daughter has just died, but come and lay your hand on her, and she will live.' And Jesus rose and followed him, with his disciples." -- Matthew 9:18-19 *** Rewarding faith "But she came and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, help me.” And he answered, 'It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs.' She said, 'Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table.' Then Jesus answered her, 'O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.' And her daughter was healed instantly." *** Healing passively "And when the men of that place recognized him, they sent around to all that region and brought to him all who were sick and implored him that they might only touch the fringe of his garment. And as many as touched it were made well." Matthew 14:35-36 ======== OK, now the Apostles ... Just as Jesus went all around teaching in the synagogues of Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom and healing the sick (Matthew 4:23), the Apostles went out to the rest of the world doing the same thing, advancing the kingdom through the gospel, healing the sick and establishing churches. There are examples of healing with the disciples that parallel healings done by Jesus. Some validate the authority they have, some are done from compassion, some -- those with shadows and handkerchiefs -- are "passive," some involve a touch with the hand, some just a command. Just as Jesus did what he saw the Father do, the Apostles were doing what Jesus had commanded them to do. ======== You didn't mention the third category -- the churches founded by the Apostles and those that followed. They made converts, established congregations, taught proper worship and the right understanding of the gospel, and then moved on. But left with those churches were the gifts of the Spirit -- the charisma -- that Paul links to Christ's sustenance of his people "to the end ... to the day of our Lorf Jesus Christ" (1Cor 1:6-8) In this third category, we may actually be able to say what the purpose the gift of healing was. Like all the other charisma, it was given to build up and edify the church. It was for the common good (1Cor 12). It was to sustain the church "to the end." It was what one should expect from the Comforter Christ had promised to send in his place.

[@tpw7250]

Its intersting that on a debate about the gifts they go straight to prophecy. Surely, the overarching question is are the gifts for today and THEN you look at how they are to be done. A lot of cessationist objections seem to revolve around how they are done more than if they are for today.

[@ReelBlessed]

Great discussion. I agree with the host that most of us are probably on a sliding scale between the two extremes and in the end we are more alike in our fundamental beliefs than we think. Less categorizing and more constructive talks like this will be so beneficial to the Church.

[@ApokMendaje-mz2tp]

Pastors My God Blessed you all

[@santtuhyytiainen]

Closed Canon and ongoing prophecy work when the word canon is understood as it is defined in dictionary: a general law, rule, principle, or criterion by which something is judged. So the closed Canon of Scripture is the criterion by which everything else, including revelation, is to be judged.

[@DavidPerez-qz5sf]

Well done on both sides! Christian love and respect for one another was very much exemplified and modeled for us, thank you for this.

[@BenTrotterNZ]

PRAISE THE LORD JESUS!!! An excellent discussion. Found it very helpful!

[@spiritandflesh8477]

Glad you guys opened up this discussion. I think you interviewed the right guys on this subject. Oddly enough I find myself watching both of your programs and benefit from the dialogue equally. I somewhat mirror the response that Doug has where when something prophetic is introduced, I’m just not sure where to put that in the theological drop box. Conversations like this is going to benefit the whole body of believers, keep them coming Joel!

[@keenacowsert8771]

I love the honor you show one another!

[@chrissanfino761]

I like these less formal debates that are more like substantive discussion. And i appreciate that you established where you agree first.

[@tomtemple69]

16:25 in the video, Josh says the word is -sufficient to save us -reveal the knowledge of Jesus (kinda just a repetition of point #1) -give normative practice in conduct in life and the church (ESV) 2 Timothy 3:15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. it equips us for EVERY good work, what is sounds like is they are getting revelation for some good works that Scripture is not sufficient for... 🤔 "that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." is it sufficient or not? or is there need for extrabiblical revelation regarding a certain good work?

[@RCGWho]

That's sort of like saying that because I have scripture, I don't need anything else. I don't need a hug, encouragement, friends, guidance and wisdom from counselors, therapy, nothing. But we do need these things, and it doesn't mean scripture is inadequate or impotent. The Lord gave us scripture and the body to minister to us through both practical gifts and gifts of the Spirit.

[@tomtemple69]

@@RCGWho for all matters of the FAITH, Scripture is sufficient exhortation, encouragement, consolation is from the Bible teaching is from the Bible and we are talking about revelation from God which is what they are claiming 2 Timothy 3:14-17 read it

[@tomtemple69]

@@RCGWho what does God still need to tell the church that He hasn't told us in Scripture? that means the Scriptures aren't sufficient for equipping us for every good work and a massive part of the church is not privy to this revelation from God...

[@BEABEREAN10]

​@@tomtemple69 wouldn't it be awesome if our omniscient God told us things that we didn't know naturally? Like what house to buy, car, maybe something about our health, maybe revealing the heart intentions of sinners to bring them to repentance (we see that multiple times in scripture). These are things that aren't written in the scriptures nor could they be for everyone personally as they differ, but are very helpful to our edification. Not to mention, the Bible says it contains all we need, and part of that containment is the instructions regarding prophecy. It's just so weird to me that we claim we don't need something the bible says is there for our benefit

[@tomtemple69]

@@BEABEREAN10 " Like what house to buy, car, maybe something about our health, maybe revealing the heart intentions of sinners to bring them to repentance (we see that multiple times in scripture)." whos says we need God to tell us that? the Bible isn't enough to bring someone to repentance? have you ever heard of the term "Christian liberty" and "biblical principles" God is not your magic 8 ball

[@NateMP]

So good to see God's people come together for a good conversation

[@samueljimenez7420]

Yes, great way to start the year. I was wondering what had happened. Haven’t seen a new one in a while

[@Noname-tq7fu]

Great discussion and a great blessing to hear the 2 positions.

[@AslanRising]

It was said most of us have had situations, a word from a friend, a circumstance, where is seems clear God was leading. For one, this does not presuppose the attesting gifts are for now. But, let me ask everyone, how many words from a friend, circumstances have you thought to be clearly from God, and time showed it wasn't?

[@jpeffer1131]

The Remnant guys did ok. They still didn't convince me of their view. I also can't get past the fact that they support the nut jobs of the Charismatic movement.

[@thecrypt5823]

I'm not saying you're wrong at all, because there certainly are wicked pretenders everywhere, but based on the early church's experience in Acts 2, in which everyone appeared to be drunk, I think we need to come up with a more effective metric than "they look nutty," especially since apparent foolishness (spitting in mud, circling Jericho, striking a rock) seems to be God's M.O. for activating our childlike faith and obedience while cutting through our respectability conceits.

[@michaels7325]

​@@thecrypt5823 well Josh said he gave prophecy that was almost completely accurate. In the Bible it's always 100% accurate and the prophets don't run around doing victory laps. All these modern "prophets" are nothing but charlatans.

[@danielwarton5343]

@@thecrypt5823the early church in acts 2 were speaking in foreign languages that people didn’t all understand. I think they called them drunk because they seemed to be babbling to those who didn’t know the other languages. Nut jobs would be people like KennethCopeland and Todd White etc.

[@ShepherdMinistry]

One of the guys has female pastors on staff

[@jpeffer1131]

@ShepherdMinistry yea, I'm not a fan of Remnant Radio.

[@TomCoNTinYou]

Great debate it was heart warming to see Brothers discussing their differences in an edifying and not critical or condemning spirit!

[@FrankinSmiththeology]

That doesn't mean anything. Cessation is still wrong no matter how you act

[@TomCoNTinYou]

@@FrankinSmiththeology Agreed but their is an old saying the main things are the plain things and the plain things are the main things and both sides seem to want to get away from that it appears sometimes but I think it is a mistake.In other words like Hank Hannegraaf used to say to be debated but divide over .

[@theeternalsbeliever1779]

@@TomCoNTinYou Cessationism is still a plainly wrong, unbibical, wicked doctrine. You're trying to straddle the fence in an attempt to avoid offending ppl, but the devil owns the fence. The Bible shows Paul teaching that God distributes the gifts and the offices as He sees fit. So if you believe that God doesn't change, then there is no reason to pretend that the Bible is unclear on this topic when it is extremely clear.

[@TomCoNTinYou]

@@theeternalsbeliever1779 The devil owns the fence? I don't know about that but I do know he wants to create division. To me the lynchpin of the whole argument is 1 Cor 13:10 particularly the phrase " when the perfect comes" . To me it means when Jesus returns but I can understand where one could interpret it to mean when the cannon of scripture is closed. God in His ultimate wisdom decided to state it the way He did when the text could have said When Jesus returns at the rapture or when the scriptures are complete.I'm sure God has many reasons why He stated it this way.Where the Bible is not dogmatic I believe we ought not be dogmatic. Certainly it is not a condition of salvation. I am going to err on the side of unity.

[@AslanRising]

Where you want special knowledge, God gives His Spirit and His word.

[@wakeinthecity9]

I think Josh is mistaken here in 18:20 about John 12. His point hes seemingly trying to make is self refuting. If you follow his logic to its conclusion, then the Apostle himself would also be unclear about what was being spoken to him from God. This means that the scripture which was recorded by John could be in fact not inerrant, because John’s interpretation is, in the continuationsist’s view, theoretically fallable

[@christopherchilton8931]

This was a great podcast/conversation. As a continuationalist, I enjoyed seeing the panelist share their thoughts and views. No one made fun or disrespected one another and the comment at the end about cessationalists writing off others I feel is true. He said he wants to win, so let’s win together in Jesus’ name

[@LoriLev1107]

It's all about NOT having a closed fist toward God. As long as the gifts line up with God's Word, be open to it. Can it be messy? Sure. But does that mean God doesn't move in the gifts? No. Excellent discussion! Thank you for hosting this.

[@mosesking2923]

At 17:03 Joshua Lewis gives an excellent rundown of scripture used to evaluate (or merely passively accept) prophecy. Really good list of scripture citations, especially John 12.

[@brettmagnuson8318]

Im sorry but saying someone with the initials JS with shoulder problem would literally by law of averages encompass a huge number of people. The miracles performed by the apostles and their associates were such that there was no other explanation than that it was a divine occurrence.

[@mcocknoxy]

a great good faith conversation! The Remnant gents acquitted themselves with great insight and Biblical fidelity

[@FITSOZOLIFE]

Having witnessed the madness of Charismania churches I looked upon all these so called gifts as fake. After many years of seeking God studiously I attended an elderly, scholarly, biblical church just passing through a small country village. An elderly lady hit up at the end and said she had a word… I had told the last next to me by chance upon entry about a certain condition, she sat next to me For The whole service. When the lady spoke, she turned to me… that’s you! It was! I reluctantly went to the front. After prayer something very strange occurred! I will never doubt God can act in these ways again. Nothing has ever happened since that day 20 years ago, but I will not doubt He can move in the gifts today. No drama, no hype, no clapping or dancing, just elderly faithful church folk.

[@chriseasterly5142]

I don’t see any of these “prophets” raising people from the dead.

[@johnangelformby106]

Andrew Womack and many in Africa have.

[@b.eunice]

@@johnangelformby106I hope this is a joke.

[@RandomBoxingGuy]

@@johnangelformby106😂😂😂 you don’t buy his story right??

[@gigglinggypsy4636]

​@@johnangelformby106 I have personally seen a man raised from the dead in my home church in Christiansburg VA on a Sunday morning in 2003.. God chose to hear and answer - all Glory to Him. This is not a charismatic, or Pentecostal church.

[@snsdb42]

The gifts edifies the body and increases others faith. I love the “Empowered Love”

[@derekbrokke]

This is awesome! Couldn't believe when I saw the video of these four discussing the gifts of the Spirit! Also....I had to pause the video for a genuine laugh out loud when Josh referred to Paul as "half-cheeking it" as one of the apostles, lol...

[@gregskaggs9593]

This was an excellent discussion and the manner in which it was held was every bit as edifying as the content. We’ll done, brothers.

[@jahbee6317]

Loved this video. I like hearing discussions like this.

[@ronsirard]

Thnaks for respectful and cordial conversation

[@TheGermdog]

Can the remnant radio guys give us an example and video of where one of their prophets at their churches were specific like they’re saying?

[@codywormy6920]

Go watch Chuck Pierce. That would be a good example of their church prophecies.

[@JAHtony1111]

The woman with the issue of blood wasn't an Apostle. Yet her faith in Christ healed her. Christ said that these signs will likewise follow all who believe in Him. Including us. Blessings. 😊

[@babylonsfall7]

I wrote this some time back after God converted me to Continuationism. May God bless you all in your pursuit of these wonderful things! I thank our great God and Father always for blessing us in his Son, Christ Jesus, with a hope that is unfailing, and unending, passing the test of time, through the words of the living God flowing everywhere and to everyone, bearing fruit all over the world! And as we wait for his triumphal return, our age is born into the new covenant in his blood, with the shadow of the old having long passed away. For us, the enemies are a different shade but all of the same root, that is, of the devil. And through the word and through the Spirit of Christ we have overcome. But both in my spirit, and in the Holy Spirit, I say that much of the church has grown cold, scared of the strangeness of it all, they have closed themselves off to the very thing that made the early church strong! Through the doctrines and schemes of men, the Holy Spirit has been blasphemed right out of the heart of the church. For many teach and testify that some of the gifts of the Spirit have ceased. God forbid! Rather, when men stopped believing in the Spirit, then, the gifts ceased. When women stopped asking for the gifts, then, the Spirit ceased. Many believe in the Father. Many believe in the Son. But very few believe in the Spirit anymore. The relationship with the great Spirit has become a mere set of things to believe about Him. Or a tingly feeling you get sometimes during worship. O wretched humans! What have you done? For where have the prophecies gone? Where are the healings? Where are the tongues? Where are the dreams? They died slowly as the church died slowly. What remains is a thing that has a form of godliness but denies its power. Wake up! Behold, the Spirit of God is still here, alive and ready. Unlock him within you! He cries out for nourishment! And his food is the word of God. His sustenance is faith! Who has faith anymore? Who takes the word seriously anymore? I won’t make Elijah’s mistake. For there are some out there who still worship in spirit and in truth. But some have neglected the former, to the church’s shame! Oh but if we were all filled to the brim! For it is through the Spirit that we have been redeemed from the law, having been granted abundant access to the blessings that God prepared beforehand for those who believe in his son. Chosen by grace, not by the law; chosen by faith, not by the letter. And the Spirit has come to live in our hearts and free us from the power of sin which is contained in the law, ushering in to us freedom from death. But we have to listen to that still small voice and start obeying him, instead of ignoring him! This is the beginning, and the key, to living in the Spirit and walking by faith in God. Brothers and Sisters, let us repent of our unbelief in the great God, the Holy Spirit. Let us rekindle the fire in our hearts and bring the signs and blessings of the Spirit back to our churches! It starts with us. One faithful step at a time, we must woo our way back to his good graces. He is always willing to forgive but he is also grieved, starved, and daring anyone to have faith in him. Let us have faith that the Word of God is powerful and active and complete. Let us all be reconciled to him and become like the example we were left with in Jesus who relied on him for everything he did!

[@ShepherdMinistry]

Can you record yourself showing these gifts and how they are normative?

[@babylonsfall7]

@@ShepherdMinistry - which gifts? I woke up at 5am a couple days ago and had words in my head that would not go away. Not from me, but here is what resulted: His Word (01/02/2024) Chorus This Great God that we serve, gave us His Word, So we use it to guide, the way that we serve, No slips, no falls if we stay true to His word, Let us continue to observe every statute and verse! Verse 1 This may be the greatest news you ever heard, The pre-existant God, we call the Word, Alongside his Father created the world, His mission was to come and save his girl, Who had lost her way in Satan’s war, Though her sins were many like scarlet, Still the Son of God came and bought it, Nailed to a tree and buried in a coffin, Shook off death he would never be rotten, Don’t be dismayed, it had to be this way, The Son of Man had to be betrayed, But the 11 were glad to see his face, After he died, rose, and defeated the grave. Wouldn’t you sing? Wouldn’t you turn and be redeemed? This man who died and came back again? He is standing right beside you man. He’s now inside you man. Let the Spirit guide you man! Chorus This Great God that we serve, gave us His Word, So we use it to guide, the way that we serve, No slips, no falls if we stay true to His word, Let us continue to observe every statute and verse! Verse 2 We don’t run for a perishable wreath, We run for an imperishable King, The One who gave power to David’s sling, To slay the giant of the Philistines. The Lion of Tribe of Judah, Greater than a whole line of Rulers, He aligned the stars of Orion and Jupiter, Seems like every day society grows stupider. But our minds are in line with Yeshua, In Christ we are being mined into something newer, Tossing out the crimes, the fines, and the manure, Coming out the other side, refined, ain’t nothing truer. Through faith in the word of God, The Spirit takes away the broken parts, of our hearts, Waters off the charts, new life starts, No park could hold the tree of the seed it sparks! Chorus This Great God that we serve, gave us His Word, So we use it to guide, the way that we serve, No slips, no falls if we stay true to His word, Let us continue to observe every statute and verse! Verse 3 The world today has confused the little ones, Jesus said to never refuse the little ones, Better to tie a noose for the end of us, Than to cause a kid to sin with rediculous, Teachings about gender, Send that one back to sender because the God of the universe won’t surrender, Male and female he made them since Kinder, His word will prevail from January to December, This is what we need to remember, every member, Hold fast to the word he delivered, Every word he delivered was configured, To transform the soul of the sinner, So let us consider every single word from the Giver! Chorus This Great God that we serve, gave us His Word, So we use it to guide, the way that we serve, No slips, no falls if we stay true to His word, Let us continue to observe every statute and verse!

[@ShepherdMinistry]

@@babylonsfall7 Foretelling a future event, raising the dead from the grave, growing limbs, healing the blind, etc.

[@babylonsfall7]

@@ShepherdMinistry - I have never done any of those things, nor seen any of them take place. I am a bit confused on if you read what I wrote in the OP? Are getting something mixed up? Do you believe that God performs miracles today such as the ones you asked about? I do, even though I have never seen it, etc. This is because the Spirit of God is still active and is able to do the same miracles He performed through Jesus during his earthly ministry. But it takes Faith and people believing it can happen. I believe this is precisely why we don't see it happening as often. Not because the gifts have ceased, rather because people simply don't believe in them anymore. People can barely muster enough faith to get out of bed and make it to church these days much less have the kind of Faith Jesus had, that could move mountains.

[@ShepherdMinistry]

@@babylonsfall7 Many people have amazing faith and believe in gifts, yet, no one has witnessed them like we read in the Bible. That is because they are not normative like they were in the early church. Miracles, healings, and tongues are not ordinary and are used very rarely and dependent on Gods sovereignty. Not man’s will, but God’s. I did read some of your post. If you disagree with me, simply prove it and I’ll repent.

[@lukehudson257]

Great work by having this debate in good faith with each other. To find common ground where possible.

[@run-j4v]

This one video contains almost everyone who convinced me to leave a NAR church back in 2022. If James White was holding the camera for Joel, than I could drop the almost.

[@andrewmattiewalter]

Did you see the video that Remnant did with their other co-host who got fired from a NAR church for not being NAR

[@RevDavidReyes]

@@andrewmattiewalterof course he won’t answer because cessationists twist facts just like they twist scripture

[@cmshaw52]

What is NAR?

[@jessicaf.7423]

@cmshaw52 New Apostolic Reformation

[@AslanRising]

I am commanded to obey God. If He says jump, I am to jump. Now, when someone "prophecies" am I supposed to obey? How can I know it's from God? Does God speak out of both sides of His mouth?

[@NLASMINISTRY]

Question if the gifts continue today can anyone name someone who is performing miracles that look the same as they did during the time of Christ's Apostles. Just 1. Raised someone from the dead, restored sight to someone blind, someone lame from birth walks? Repeatedly

[@barnhouseexplosion3020]

Heidi Baker. A medical team went to Mozambique and recorded that 70% of the blind people she prayed for gained their sight. And God used a pastor in a sister church raised a man from the dead.

[@RebeccaJeffersonOAC]

I would strongly but respectfully disagree with DW on including a hypothetical discovery of Philips daughters as Scripture. Jesus said many things that weren't included. That doesn't take away from His deity that things weren't included. That is the wisdom of God in choosing what and what not to include.

[@timv1021]

Doug Wilson is a beast! Simple clear precise line of questioning only to be explained away and deflected. They (continuationist) could have just given a simple no at times. I like Remnant Radio, they have several good interviews, they are a great resource for the church. Typically, for me this argument comes down to defining words that get painted with broad brush strokes which most cessationists reign that in pretty well.

[@jasongoad1084]

Love this discussion!! This is the way you should discuss issues together. I follow you all on KZbin and appreciate you all as brothers in Christ.

[@jaupper]

Great video and conversation. Thanks!

[@chrisjohnson9542]

Appreciated this conversation. This was honestly the best discussion on the issue that I've heard. I dont agree with the continuationist view but I do see how my cessationism sometimes goes too far in certain ways because of the abuses. But God still works wonders.

[@clarkl4177]

🎉 Thanks for the late Christmas 🎄/Beginning of the New Year 🎁 gift 😊 Been making time to hear more on both (all?) sides of various Christian beliefs--especially since I have been involved in a WIDE RANGE of denominations! Growing up in the SoCal 70's, first as a Catholic (made it through Confirmation 👍), then, upon hearing the Bible for the first time and coming to Christ at a Wednesday night Baptist Youth group (Thank you, Pastor Von 🙏) and then a Methodist Church in college, an AofG, and on and on😮 phew. Seeing both the blessings AND challenges of such a background... Thankful for our Gracious, Patient Father God, leading by the Spirit, saving us through Christ 🙌

[@solascriptura6429]

Great work guys. Though I see it everywhere in Canada. They get the hillsong type, extra revelation pastors in and the church goes down hill fast. Not to throw out our conservative Pentecostal brothers here. His word is sufficient Christ wins!

[@davidalvarado6420]

This was a very cordial and insightful conversation. This was not really a conventional debate but a discussion seeking to understand each other’s viewpoint. I believe the continuationist’s argumentation was more biblical as there was no rescending of the pursuit of the gifts of the Spirit of prophecy and tongues by any of the apostles and the Spirit of prophecy is the Spirit of Christ. Hence when the perfect comes (Jesus Christ) then these will cease. The word of God is perfect because it points to the One who is perfect, is from the one who is perfect and ultimately Jesus is the Word who became flesh and is coming again which is why these gifts are still needed until He returns for His bride!

[@michaelburatovich3199]

Great conversation. Very educational, winsome, and focused on biblical theology rather than rabbit trails.

[@brightest07]

At 51:30 it started getting strange. It all sounds good when you are using scripture and making biblical arguments. But… if the outflow of those beliefs is “prophetic words” about strings of numbers, no thanks.

[@AslanRising]

I do not find a category in Scripture where Gods word is maybe Gods word. If the Canon is closed, and no words spoken should become John 22, then how can these words be said to be from God? Are there any words God directs to us, where we can flip a coin, or make some kind of analysis upon to decide whether we're gonna obey Him? If you say we do this with sermons, I'd say no we don't. A sermon is to be expounding Gods word, a so call modern prophecy, is expounding what? It's not Scripture...

[@shermanbenton5416]

Thanks for the discussion guys, it was helpful.