The Considerations Before Judgement, with Sue Ward

Episode 296 features an interview with astrologer Sue Ward about the considerations before judgement in horary astrology.
The considerations before judgement are a set of aphorisms that were first outlined in the 17th century by William Lilly in his book Christian Astrology.
Lilly introduces them as a set of considerations for answering horary astrology questions and determining whether the question is “radical” or has a strong foundation.
The considerations were passed along in later authors and by the mid-20th century became a set of “strictures” that were believed to indicate whether a horary chart could be read at all or should be rejected outright.
In the 1980s there was a revival of interest in the practice of horary astrology, and Lilly’s work in particular, due to the reprinting of Christian Astrology in 1985.
By 1992 some astrologers such as Maurice McCann noted that Lilly still read charts where one or more of the considerations were present in the chart examples of Christian Astrology.
This raised the question of what the considerations were really supposed to be used for, and what their value was in interpreting horary charts, if any.
Sue Ward wrote a series of influential articles on the considerations starting in 1992, in which she explored their purpose and presented a new take on their meaning and value.
During the course of this she made a number of discoveries, including a notable observation about the working definition of void of course that Lilly used in practice.
In this interview we set out to talk about Sue’s work on the considerations before judgement, and to try to place it within the historical context of the revival of traditional horary astrology in the 1980s and 90s.
You can find out more about Sue on her blog at:
sue-ward.blogspot.com
Twitter:
/ susanward
Email: [e-mail]
Check out the podcast website for bonus material for this episode:
theastrologypodcast.com/2021/...
Please be sure to like and subscribe!
#TheAstrologyPodcast
Timestamps
00:00:00 Intro
00:01:30 Sue's background
00:07:25 Sue's study of horary astrology
00:10:44 Teacher Olivia Barclay
00:14:40 Notable students of Olivia
00:16:52 William Lilly and the revival of horary
00:27:43 Overview of Lilly's considerations before judgement
00:37:30 Considerations became "strictures" in 1970's
00:41:40 Maurice McCann's article on considerations
00:48:20 John Frawley's statements on the considerations
00:49:55 Sue's article responding to McCann
00:52:06 Importance of context in horary
00:56:58 Problem of preconceptions about history
01:00:07 Sue's reverence for Lilly's text
01:05:08 Criteria for horary questions
01:15:01 The downside to computer charts
01:16:56 The magic in the horary process
01:18:50 The astrologer's role in the horary chart
01:22:00 Publishing details of Christian Astrology
01:23:56 Sue's book about William Lilly
01:31:20 Consideration 1: Lord of the Hour and of the Ascendant
01:45:05 Consideration 2: Ascendant in first few degrees of a sign
01:48:22 Consideration 3: Ascendant is in the last few degrees of a sign
01:59:04 Consideration 4: Moon in the later degrees of a sign
02:05:14 Consideration 5: Moon in the via combusta
02:07:23 Consideration 6: Moon is void of course
02:33:25 Consideration 7: Cusp of the 7th house or ruler afflicted
02:43:27 Consideration 9: Saturn in the 7th house
02:45:57 Consideration 8: Saturn in the ascendant
02:46:39 Consideration 10: Lord of the Ascendant combust
02:49:08 Consideration 11: Lord of the 7th unfortunate, or in fall, or malefic bounds
02:48:21 Consideration 12: When the testimonies of benefics and malefics are equal
02:54:47 Christian Astrology written during a plague
02:55:44 Sue's take on the recent Jupiter-Saturn conjunction
02:57:50 Considerations summary
02:59:34 Sue's book on Lilly
03:01:38 Sue's offerings and blog
03:03:44 Closing remarks

[@TheAstrologyPodcast]

Be sure to check out the description page for this episode on the podcast website, which has a detailed episode outline, some pictures of the considerations from Lilly, and links to some of Sue's articles on the topic: theastrologypodcast.com/2021/03/24/the-considerations-before-judgement-with-sue-ward/

[@lavolasferadegrees1262]

kzbin.info/door/XkdANcsya0VoX8q2tkhoPw

[@lostwanderer3213]

I have a 20 minute presentation today and I'm freaking out which makes me REALIZE everyone on this podcast is supernatural for being able to give seminars for 2+hours and not run out of information. I didn't realize how difficult it was to not be repetitive, keep an audience interested and engaged.

[@lisaparis684]

Working on Diploma Studies with Sue...I highly recommend studying with her. Rigorous and satisfying work.

[@mariabielikova3866]

Amazing interview. Sue Ward is such a professor Mcgonagall

[@aryahavinfun5682]

This conversation was so deliciously detailed and on point, I am so happy you two got together for it! My appreciation of Lilly was always high, and now I understand him better than I did before. Thank You!

[@333thelc]

Thank you both so much for this. I've been studying horary recently and just got my copy of Christian Astrology in the mail. The part she said about knowing exactly what the client would want in an ideal world was tremendously helpful to my understanding of how to look at a horary, even ones I have done for myself when I didn't quite want to admit to myself what I really wanted.

[@paulmagus2133]

thank you so much for this interviw with Sue Ward on the subject of Horary Astrology, Lilly and his and Horarys historical context. wow to the revelation about lillys second edition that was actually pirated when his printing plates were used without permission. All these years i never knew this. fascinating. this is a Gem of a Video discussion.

[@henrylharrison1223]

Thank you Chris and Sue.

[@AstroStefDotCom]

I could listen to the both of you talk about the multi-faceted history of astrology forever. Thanks for this one for sure :-)

[@carolconn631]

I learned so much, great interview!

[@anne7441]

Thanks for this video. I enjoy your interviews very much because you give people an opportunity to talk and you are always prepared with excellent questions.

[@sullacornelius1013]

Thank you, Chris. This is a great episod. The comments from Sue really helps me to refresh my worldview on Horary astrology.

[@bentbehind]

Thanks Chris, this is another excellent podcast.

[@herkimerblue3772]

Wonderful discussion , thank you!

[@miriamborne2469]

Thank you for good information on the history of astrology ~ grateful for your educational efforts💚💫🙏

[@jodiearrington]

Great episode, thank you!

[@thezodiacus]

This was awesome! I enjoyed every detail, I'm still about to deep study it, and interview gave me a lot of considerations before start : )

[@scout3444]

Oh this is really really good!!

[@michellevanburen9972]

“It’s really flowery n stuff” 😆

[@svjetlanagasparic8752]

From my own experience I can say that it is essential to ask the right question as in working with other methods of divination like in tarot or I Ching. It was really embarrassing when you see yourself in the cards and the person asks about their love life. Then as time goes on you realize you were right. Of course the very moment of the answer is when you realize you figured out that person and you are in trouble.

[@svjetlanagasparic8752]

It was a long time ago but a good lesson and I have known for a long time that I don't even want to start until there is a truly honest question and that a person must respect you as well as value divination.

[@xotan]

At the time Lilly was writing and practicing England was involved in a Civil War between the Royalists and the Parliamentarians led by Oliver Cromwell. It was a tricky time (in 1648 King Charles II was executed) and I imagine that spies on both sides were plentiful. An unguarded word by an astrologer could likely have caused serious problems. Could it be that Lilly was trying to protect himself, and others, from being in any way indiscreet thus avoiding possible trouble? It stirred many memories when you and Sue mentioned astrologers whom I knew: Derek Appleby, Maurice McCann, et al. Some of them came to conferences organised by the Irish Astrological Association, now sadly defunct, I understand. I am enjoying your podcast very much.

[@marcellagio2075]

Listening this today and just realized I have Mercury sextile Pluto - "...studying deeper knowledge"

[@avogue7831]

A-mazing!!!!!

[@Cmrntylr]

This is a subject I completely have no interest in where I randomly (out of nowhere) decided to do a quick learn on horary (just to get a general understanding) then doing one using a broad general question where I ended up shocked because it actually seemed to have the detailed semantics and nuances related to the question. It wasn’t completely out of the blue, I coughed up the money to buy the three books of occult philosophy reading a nice chunk over the weekend, bothered because I wasn’t fond of actually spending money to wake up to find I had minor storm damage to my car so the book wasn’t a big deal in price.. enough to be annoyed wondering if studying all of this has a point. I also know nothing of horary where it’s referenced. A nuanced question would be if studying it will actually be useful and that’s an annoying yes. Anyways, another nuance is I’ll likely always have that eye roll attitude towards the subjects. The horary chart is actually more entertaining if the natal chart is known. It’s at least a motivator to use it to dive a little deeper into that wing of astrology, I think it’s the name that makes me not have much interest. My only thing about the 3 books is it’s too tied to Christianity so far. I did find humor in the ophanim thing since they’re tied to either the cherubim or seraphim.. by that book it’s be tied to seraphim. Just kind of chuckled to myself with that. The horary answer wasn’t that intriguing, it’s testable and only for the sake of testing. However, the detail in the chart with subtle nuances that I know what they mean caught my attention. It was extremely positive while also looking at other areas tied to it where there was much more detail than expected. What was odd is what may be thought of as challenging is actually within my natal dynamic. Cool stuff. I wouldn’t have any other reason to try it again anytime soon, but I’ll at least have a chart to learn a little more on the subject.

[@OlgaRykov]

Instead of William Lilly I keep hearing Willy Nilly.

[@sekh0420]

Thank you Chris.. so what I understood from this session, the void of course is not void if it makes an aspect even if it is out of sign? And it doesn’t need to be exact? Just applying?

[@TheAstrologyPodcast]

That is what Sue says that Lilly's working definition of void of course was, yes. Applying within orb, regardless of sign boundary.

[@lightworkerjen8881]

Judgment can be such a difficult card!

[@ThePhoenixfischer]

Love this show so fucking much omg

[@Vendnmachine]

Lilly's quote says that the moon is void of course when it has separated from a planet and will not make any future application to a planet "during his being in that sign." Would this not mean that the moon could not be void of course for part of its stay in a sign as shown in the example here as the moon will indeed conjoin with jupiter? Not sure if i'm somehow misunderstanding. Thanks!

[@trish4977]

Thank you Chris this was so good...what a fascinating lady...Chris I know the planetary days but how can I find the planetary hour please.

[@peacepantherproductions]

Google a chart/ it’s always the day’s planet to start: so friday=Venus. They follow a set order. Saturn Jupiter Mars sun venus Mercury Moon.

[@trish4977]

@@peacepantherproductions Thank you so much for your help Amy.

[@3laraaslisaani]

Hey Chris, thank you so much for your interviews. I don't know if you have covered this, but what does it mean for the chart ruler to be a malefic? Would an anaylsis of Scorpio, Aquarius, Capicorn, and Aries rising as a group reveal something about the complex effect of malefics, that go beyond their baleful reputation?

[@999porte]

i like her