The Content Conundrum - Why So Many Games Feel Generic - Extra Credits

[@extrahistory]

Procedurally generated content is very popular in AAA games right now, because it saves money--but especially in the indie game space, it often pays off to create some handmade content that makes your game’s personality come alive. Also, apologies to everyone who has made a comment and has not seen it appear yet--something's wonky with our KZbin settings so a lot of comments are hiding right now! Thanks for your patience.

[@sahilpohare]

Extra Credits Matt you did a great job... That's all. Narration performance in this episode is leagues ahead of your previous ones. Thank you for listening to the comments and not taking them negatively. Extra Credits is "the" channel devs look up to. I by all my heart appreciate the effort you put in. Bro you've proved yourself worthy. Honestly I was maybe the most angry and annoyingly audience when they replaced Dan. And I was so accustomed to him that I didn't think someone else could do it. Turns out you've proved a lot of us wrong today. I apologise to you for my previous comments and thank you for bringing me back on Extra Credits

[@YoImOrbit]

I feel the same and have SO many content ideas for SO many games

[@maxchenmusterhausen5311]

That reminds me of a problem i have with many new diablo-type games: the balance. There is just too much of it. One of my favorite games is sacred 1. I remember how i found i broken item that just said "deal 2000% more damage to dragons" at level 2. I took that dagger with a class that would throw the weapon. had to pick it up every time. i traveled to a high level zone and found a dragon. After 1 hour i killed it. And instantly got to level 40. Nowadays? Grim Dawn is a fine example. We play at level 50, a friend joins at 10. He just levels a little bit faster. All for the sake of balance. Its boring. I want these game breaking items, these fast exploitive leveling systems and in general just freedom. I played the whole campain of sacred with a dark elf who could perma-stun enemies. I loved it. Just let the items have every possible stat, give some legendarys real effects to add and its fine. Dont overdesign the balance because someone would cry you only took 2 minutes to 60 in grim dawn in your single player session. Its stupid and doesnt take anything from anyone.

[@milenmilen3201]

The voice and the pace are not the same now.

[@Snailman3516]

Rather than make a more complex model for an item, in order to show that something is better, just make it *shinier*. Also, you can do things like speed up and slow down animations. Speed up to make something feel light, and slow down to make something feel light.

[@andrasfogarasi5014]

*meanwhile at Bethesda* Balance? What's that? _proceeds to implement spell that makes every enemy in a 3 mile radius attack literally everything_

[@yoloman3607]

András Fogarasi It just works! (until it crashes)

[@justinsmith9006]

I want it so badly!

[@Obsi399]

And that's why we put so many hours into those buggy, expansive, lovable messes they make

[@FamusJamus]

I recently used that spell during the civil war questline. There's a bit where your guys expect an ambush and send you on ahead. So I turned invisible (what's a "sneak skill"?) and nuked the lot with firey rage. Literally, as it turned out. I was too busy getting some distance from my guys so I didn't see that half the room was covered in oil and fire lamps. The mayhem spell set off every single one of them. Naturally, _one_ of my guys was still in range. Still, it was a fun moment.

[@jasper4129]

Frenzy them all, then just become invisible and silent. Illusion for the win, every time.

[@KaiserAfini]

Zoey, I hope those notes are meticulously organized, a future episode depends on it.

[@LendinSwiftbolt]

I'm excited to see that episode. I like both Diablo and Souls, so it'll be nice to compare the two.

[@AzureIV]

*Meow.*

[@graefx]

Matt seems like he's really coming into his own and getting comfortable narrating. Keep up the great work.

[@reembodied0]

Strongly agreed with this. It's really cool to see.

[@pegzounet]

Yes, starting to sound more natural and relaxed. Much less of that forced exuberance, while steel keeping his own style. Keep it up, that's lovely :)

[@Babbleplay]

I'm still getting used to it. I'm mildly autistic, and as a result, don't like it when things I am used to change. I mean, no one likes that, but, it hits me hard. I'm getting over it, though. Still love the series muchly. Matt is doing a wonderful job.

[@p38thunder66]

i like the cat

[@SuperWarningShot]

He's good, but I do miss Dan :(

[@Akava2005]

Before it felt like you were trying to sell me something. This time it felt like a small group of us were having a conversation. You nailed it this time!

[@wva6809]

Just like the old days! He's really, really improving. Keep on going!

[@sanny8716]

I think you're just getting used to his voice... I don't hear much difference

[@Faerindel]

He has toned it down a bit. He's still a way to go, but it's not so over the top.

[@autofire55555]

Agreed! I don't know if I'm just getting used to him, but I'm starting to like his presentation more.

[@100billionsubscriberswithn4]

I think he's getting better. He's not a Dan, though.

[@PrincessFelicie]

It went down to make room for more G R A P H I C S. That's why I hate the current state of the AAA industry.

[@stanj85]

That Executioner Blade text was perfect. That is exactly the kind of thing that makes a game stand out for me. Little pieces of lore that, in the end mean nothing, but still manage to stimulate my imagination. It really does massively expand the world with damn near zero cost.

[@Soumein]

And all you need to do is put it somewhere, and your player will imagine the dead body they looted it from was the executioner, or some other environmental storytelling.

[@daviddelpozofiliu5556]

Humm... how about a an episode on Dwarf Fortress? It truly is a fascinating game

[@dddmemaybe]

That would have to be a whole series. Dwarf Fortress always a long investment to get into.

[@hollandscottthomas]

I'd have thought that procedurally generated content would just open a Pandora's Box of checks and balances in order for it to work. It feels like double-handling when compared to just planning the items out and crafting them. You're completely right about the Diablo/Skyrim/Souls comparisons though. Part of the reason Dark Souls feels so rich as a world is because every element of the game is pulling triple or quadruple duty in storytelling - a sword has damage stats, but it also speaks to playing style through a moveset (rather than just being hack/slash), while also having lore of the world attached to it in the description, which itself is usually tied to where the player found the weapon. And not a lot of this is made explict, it's presented and absorbed through action and experience rather than just being told "This is the lance of The Great Whomever, it has a +4 against Magic types". The Souls games, at least initially, seem to almost go out of their way to obfuscate and abstract the overall numbers game behind it because they want you to learn things by experience and skill rather than always trying to meta-game yourself to the highest level pickup you find. Procedural generation would make that kind of specificity really difficult, and make it much harder for the developers to craft and shape the experience.

[@bernardoheusi6146]

Faster than Light is a great example of good use of the idea.

[@NachostheXth]

I don't think obfuscating your own stat readout is all that handy for new players. Certainly i wasted more time than i needed on dud weapons

[@DrewLSsix]

"And remember the power of re-skinning" - Buffalo Bill Powerful words...

[@gamerliliturra7434]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something about this video but I feel like saying games don't have a lot of space, npcs, items and monsters is ignoring a lot of great games that are fairly recent. Witcher 3, Fallout 4, Skyrim, Breath of the Wild, hell even Mario Odyssey. The newest Mario game is packed with assets and every power changes how you look and move. You can spend days wandering around Witcher 3 just looking at stuff. Fallout 4 might not have the item or monster variety but the npcs are each distinct and the world is huge. These games are crafted too, not procedurally generated. I feel like you're ignoring a lot of hard work by a bunch of developers by saying we don't have Morrowinds or Baldur's Gates anymore. It might not be most games but those weren't most games at the time either. I feel like nostalgia is clouding your vision to fantastic complex games that are happening right now. Like i said though, maybe I'm not getting something and in the end this is all opinion. I like your videos, I'm just really into rpgs and exploration games.

[@madmaster0015]

I like the cat.

[@stanlim9182]

Meow

[@dannymusic]

Props to the use of Chrono Trigger background music for the outro. That game has tons of items and enemies that perfectly illustrate what you're talking about while the world feels very developed and alive

[@Eduardobarthwe]

True, I played it almost 20 years ago and it's still my favorite RPG.

[@InfamousArmstrong]

dannymusic Enemies maybe, but the items are all pretty generic

[@MimoAnimations]

Funny, i was thinking about playing Chrono Trigger these recent days. I guess i'll definitely have to do it now

[@cseijifja]

it sounded a bit like head chala from dbz , but then again, toriyama made the art for that.

[@dddmemaybe]

Ironically, or maybe rather fittingly, Chrono Trigger is one of the most well-animated 2d rpgs of all time. Chrono Trigger's artistic fidelity imo is the biggest reason the world feels full of life. Every enemy is charismatic in some way, explaining a bit about the creature. That's a top-class work that's hard to follow in the shoes of. www.videogamesprites.net/ChronoTrigger/Enemies/MiddleAges/7.html

[@brettd2308]

It's interesting to see you guys rag on procedural loot so much. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you on this point, it's just that I vividly remember the old Extra Credits Twitch with Dan Emmons and that guest designer he'd always have on, and they were *huge* proponents of procedural generation as the future of game development. They'd always tout it as the solution to problems and make fun of games that had handcrafted stories. It was a big reason I stopped watching that channel.

[@extrahistory]

That's a super funny anecdote, I wasn't working with EC at the time so that's news to me (and coincidentally or not, Dan Emmons is happily working on Hearthstone at Blizzard!). I do know however that there are plenty of times when EC has had wildly differing opinions among its contributors; just for a few examples, the lootbox episodes went through many edit passes and were a constant source of creative debate between us, and James has said that he disagrees with some of the ideas presented in our Extra Politics mini-series (which was done by an outside guest writer). --Belinda

[@brettd2308]

Yeah, I'm super glad he got the Hearthstone job, it seems like a natural fit for his design style. I remember that he loved TCGs.

[@ashsoforenko3952]

I don't think they're ragging on procedural generation so much as they're ragging on improper use of it. Its a tool just like any other on a designer's belt, one which can be used well or poorly. In the broader context of topic covered in the episode they were making the case the procedural generation is a tool many think to use to solve the issue at hand, but is in reality ineffective or at least more difficult than estimation at first glance. So they're not saying procedural generation is bad, just that it isn't necessarily the tool to solve the problem they have presented (at least not without significant consideration in how to use it). There are certainly many other problems, such as the ones Dan Emmons and the guest designer, which procedural generation *is* the correct tool to use, hence the praise.

[@randomdogdog]

i think the larger point is that many people get caught up in thinking that an idea is a silver bullet. i like how the guys at subset games use procedural generation. they hand craft the items, but generate the scenarios and randomize character skills. the system is definitely there to increase the amount of content, but it keeps the storytelling advantages of a more traditional system. not to say that there isn't an advantage to procedure items(the block chain video has a great example of this). truth is that i like the outcomes of both...

[@haveiszalfaroqie1628]

Can you send a message to Dan to put the Game card into Hearthstone? Voiced by Dan himself? The Game Battlecry: Replay EC's episode on power creep live on the board.

[@kiapet286]

This seems like the standard problem of throwing money at a game vs. giving it personal care, which seems to be a thing in AAA games.

[@swishfish8858]

But the part that says "money" has a really big number next to it! That automatically means it'll be really good!!! Mighty Number 9 No Man's Sky Waterworld But that one has no money spent on it and I only paid $10, why would that be of any quality? Stardew Valley Minecraft Pick a top-tier indie

[@AkaiAzul]

Nintendo seems to be doing something similar but different: increasing the total amount of content, but making it all less important, less meaningful. Mario Odyssey and Breath of the Wild both have hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of tiny collectibles that individually mean little. One Moon, shrine, or Korok seed do next to nothing, so you do it again, and again, and again until it finally adds up to something. It’s exceedingly rare that one reward here adds to the lore, understanding of characters or feeling accomplished.

[@tnecniw]

*adds in Hollow knight on that list*

[@InfamousArmstrong]

AkaiAzul True, but they also make sure that getting said small reward is interesting in and of itself, rather than merely for the reward

[@mirjanbouma]

Swish Fish Terraria. I paid full price, like €7,99 or something, and it feels like I robbed them blind. I have hundreds and hundreds of hours in that game.

[@emilekroth100]

A personal tip for anyone that want to make a game with a lot of content is to make a system that helps you to create handmade content easier. Most game developers and hobby developers (like me) knows this but if you are knew to game developing learning how tho make these systems will save you a lot of time.

[@Towelietowel]

Warframe strikes a good balance between procedurally generated and hand-crafted content. While the vast majority of levels/missions are procedurally generated, all the weapons and Warframes are hand-crafted, and they throw some well-made cinematic quests in when you get deeper into the game.

[@kerespup]

Blast Tyrant I concur Tenno

[@Shajirr_]

I just wish they had more interesting enemies. While there is variety, most of them are super slow and don't present much treat unless you sit in an endless mission for an hour, making the game super easy

[@TheOlian04]

Shajirr that's unfortunately inevitable in a game such as warframe. The enemies need to scale with your power level. But you can only make the AI so much smarter, eventually it will feel as if the enemies are cheating, so you will have to scale the health and damage, but eventually they will deal enough damage to one shot you, and you won't deal enough damage to kill them before they do. So yea, scaling is hard. I think there's an extra Credits video about enemy scaling.

[@cachotognax3600]

I want to add 2 things to the video: 1) Dwarf fortress does not only have a very good procedural generation, it has deep and intricate system that bring the procedural generation to life, I guess you still want to keep your videos short, but I think a few second of talking more about how to use procedural generation and what to build around it to make the game better rather than just longer and blanderm despite maybe being off topic, could have been nice. 2) A good example for how you can add tons of items if you make them low cost enough: games like Binding of isaac and enther the gungeon: op combos exist, some items feel pointless, but the difficulty and the roguelike elements that force you to get the most of them, and the flavor text of EtG times as you mentioned go a long way in worldbuilding.

[@noname117spore]

I second your first point. Procedural generation can be used very effectively, but it has to be thought about in a way to keep the world both alive and unique. I'd argue you need to be getting content out of procedural generation for it to really be useful. Games like Dwarf Fortress and Rimworld do this through the terrain and resources determining how you build your colony and how you react to a variety of situations, keeping every game different and interesting. When procedural generation is done well, it vastly expands the amount of worthwhile content a game has. When it's done poorly or without thought to other mechanics, it shrinks the worthwhile content a game has.

[@commenturthegreat2915]

5:31 I think 2D could actually make it harder in some cases, as it can require every sprite to have multiple versions for different angles and lighting.

[@RoronoaZoroSensei]

This video was a lot less shouty already, you're procedurally getting better at this, Matt!

[@BlargleWargle]

Yeah I'm hearing what people mean when they say our new host sounds like he's shouting.

[@PaladinfffLeeroy]

Well, I am seeing a profile picture that reminds me of a certain table... The new host can shout and all but please leave table-kun alone...

[@jamminkeys]

I mean he's toned it down significantly from the first few videos, sounds good now to me!

[@brandonhill8583]

He sounds like trying to do an 'announcer voice' instead of just chatting with us.

[@DanVzare]

He sounds waaaaaaay better than he used to. Personally, I could live with the way he's doing it now.

[@sciverzero8197]

he's calmed down some since the first few. I think he'll settle in and find a confort level eventually.

[@amberdawn868]

Just gotta say, Zoe the cat popping in and how Matt changed his voice inflection dramatically to poke a bit of fun at development made this a super fun watch. Yeah, Matt ain't Dan, but I think I'm liking Matt's voice more than I did Dan's, and I've watched this channel for years. Also, the points he brought up this time makes a good point about working on items with more personalized care versus automating stuff makes so much sense. It reminds me of the scuffle between mass-produced items and handmade items in the real world, as well. Anything to help games stand more apart from each other is glorious!

[@swishfish8858]

My problem with Matt at first is that he sounded like a popstar. Big inflections, focus on humor, all these things the popular Tubers do to appeal to the mainstream. That bugged me a lot; Dan made it a point to sound real and grounded, as well as actually invested in what he was talking about. Matt is slowly changing that, though. I don't think I'm the only one that thinks that, because he's clearly improving there.

[@Dracinard]

I wouldn't go that far - I think Dan's going to be the voice of Extra Credits for me for a while yet - but yeah, Matt's good.

[@hkfifty871]

I’ll be honest, Dan’s voice annoyed the crap out of me for quite a while. I’m guessing it may have been a combination of the mic, editing/balancing, and the team being fairly inexperienced at all this, and me just being me. But after a bit of practice, they got a lot better at stuff, and I got more used to Dan’s voice. New guy’s had a decent start, and seems to be finding his stride pretty quickly. I think with a bit of time, we’ll all come to enjoy his work. (though I’ll probably still automatically think of him as “not Dan” for the foreseeable future)

[@saintholican8009]

The day that narrators changed. I’ve found where it began, but now, why?

[@Cythil]

Why was Daggerfall used as a example when it heavily relies to procedually generated content. Very few thing in that game was handcrafted when it came to content after all. It still like the game however. (And I think the trick is using a mix. Sometimes is make sense to have a lot of generic items with a lot of variation. After all that exist in out world. Then add in some hero assets that stick out. Daggerfall did this to some degree as there where a few unique items added to the other wise procedually generated stuff.)

[@ThisIsZielman]

I think it was just the example of a COMPLEX game, but I have to agree with your statement. I was more expecting Morrowind to be mentioned (even if it is smaller than Buggerfall), but that might be my personal bias.

[@InfamousArmstrong]

Zielman probably because 95% of the hand placed stuff in Morrowind felt just as generic.

[@Gilpow]

@@InfamousArmstrong lmao nope

[@firockfinion3326]

I mean... _I_ like Diablo's style of stuff better than Dark Souls' style of stuff. I guess I'm probably in the minority though. Still, good video.

[@Bane_questionmark]

For me the diablo style of gear is just too "gamey". In Dark Souls, you kill a hollow and take a hollow shield from his corpse, even simple items like that have a logical reason for existing and being found in that particular place in the world. In Diablo, you kill a giant spider and a Super Awesome Sword of +7 Pointiness™ flys out of it, there's no reason why that sword exists or why I got it other than "video games! loot! fun!". Weirdly I don't mind this in games which are overtly arcade-like and actually kind of like it, but in RPGs where you're supposed to be in an actual place with actual context it just turns me off. Just personal preference, and like I said I get the appeal from a purely gameplay perspective. What's more appealing about the Diablo approach to you? Like you mentioned, basically everyone I've met who likes RPGs seems to prefer the Dark souls approach, I'd be interested to hear your perspective.

[@MiseFreisin]

Is there a reason why? Genuinely curious.

[@CubeMasterTV]

Cogmind is a very good example for handmade, cost-effective content. The game's artstyle is ASCII/Simple texture packs, most items aren't visualised aside from a simple ASCII artpiece thats shown upon examining the item, and there's tons of different stuff to find. For a single developer, adding such a broad list of items, that even sometimes have hidden lore, is no small feat. But by limiting the amount of art that goes into an item, its relatively easy to implement new stuff.

[@thegamer5367]

CubeMasterTV Taby slime :D

[@Lady_in_Yearning]

Let's take a moment to thank the RPG gods for Obsidian Entertainment and Larian Studios existence.

[@tnecniw]

Mhmm. Pillars of Eternity (both 1 and 2) rocks these rules. 2 is bloody amazing.

[@Jaquan018]

You mean the kings of buggy unfinished games? Yeah sure I will rise my cup to Obsidian... Sorry for the sarcasm but damn did PoE sting me harder than I would like it too...

[@fugitiveunknown7806]

Hey, just wanted to mention, putting a minor effect on an item (audio cues or turning regular enemy into a sheep when you kill them) also goes a long way to adding uniqueness to an item. Or using an inferior model on a high level item (like Ultima's Hoe of Destruction).

[@jamesc7827]

Okay I'll give Matt a chance but the announcer rhythm isn't really for me. I just have hard time following when listening to this style of enthusiastic ups and downs. I just enjoy simple talking to the audience rhythm. Still a good episode, I just had to watch twice to catch everything.

[@youtubeuniversity3638]

Modular sword mathematics: 5 swings of 20 no repeats is 1,860,480 combinations.

[@Roxor128]

That would go well with a procedural system. Pick some stats, pick some swing animations, pick or generate a model and generate some description text. Honestly, I think the hardest part of that would be generating some coherent and sensible description text for the item. Though once you got it working for one class of items, it probably wouldn't be too hard to modify it for others.

[@jeremiahlampkey3137]

Mathematical uniqueness is not the same thing as making everything feel unique. See no mans sky planets.

[@agilemind6241]

IMO some of the problem of procedurally generated content is the "curse of dimensionality" - having tons of things that are just randomly mixed together actually makes stuff seem really homogeneous because everything is just as different from each other as everything else so nothing is really special. Whereas true "uniqueness" actually comes from the existence of outliers, you need to have a bunch of ordinary equipment that is just slight variations of each other, then a bunch of rare items that are radically different from them. That is what makes the rare items feel special and be memorable.

[@AtomicMuffin14]

I miss the original voice.

[@PinochleIsALie]

That was one of the big disappointments for me in going from Morrowind or Fallout 3 to later iterations of those franchises. In Morrowind and Fallout 3, almost all items were pre-generated. Sure, I could travel the world running errands for some guy to get the Magical Fedora of Power...or I could just conk him in the head with a lead pipe and take it. It was great! Like an NPC's house in Morrowind? Just take it! But in later Elder Scrolls and Fallout games, chests auto-refreshed, enemies scaled to your level, and loot was procedurally generated.

[@ThePC007]

Procedural generation can have its charm, but I think you should either make the game revolve around it completely (like Minecraft, Terarria, and any rogue-like) or leave it out completely (or use it very sparingly). And enemies scaling to your level are hardly ever a good idea, as it is unlogical and completely nullifies the point of leveling up in the first place. When it comes to hand-crafted games, I'd like to suggest Gothic to you. It has a completely hand-crafted world that is carefully designed to be memorable and navigatable without minimaps or silly waypoint-icons. The areas are designed in such a way that you level up by killing enemies and get progressively stronger, in order to be able to tackle new areas. Enemies don't scale to your level - in fact, they don't even respawn after you kill them. Plus, the game does not hold your hand like many modern AAA games do, which is also pretty awesome.

[@hi-i-am-atan]

+PinochleIsALie I can't think of any cases in Oblivion or Skyrim where loot is procedurally generated, at least not in ways that Morrowind also didn't do. TES games always have vanilla enchanted items be handcrafted, and mobs and containers having randomized and leveled loot was something that was flat-out introduced in Morrowind if I'm remembering correctly. Maybe it was Daggerfall that introduced it, but Morrowind did have the leveled list entities with their own section in the construction kit. Heck, the enemies scaling to your level has its roots in the fact that the mobs that spawned in Morrowind depended on your level and the fact that humanoid mobs could spawn with leveled loot - sure, that system has certain advantages over mobs just basing their level on the player, but it's still ultimately a very similar result and comes with disadvantages, too.

[@nessesaryschoolthing]

I don't see where people are coming from with this. Like, if you play DnD, your DM is going to give you combat encounters that are scaled to your level. I mean, they might not, but that's RAW. Leveling areas instead of enemies is an great tool for guiding the player through the world and letting them choose their own difficulty, but it gets in the way of "go anywhere, do anything, make your own story."

[@brettd2308]

Arctangent Yep, procedural loot and scalable enemies were both introduced to TES in Morrowind as far as I know - my knowledge of the earlier games is limited. Procedural loot use has pretty much stayed the same since though, with scalable enemies used a lot more in Oblivion, but only a bit more in Skyrim. People just have such insane nostalgia goggles for Morrowind that they often completely deny that game even had level-scaling anything. Personally, I find that a good mix of procedural loot and hand-crafted loot provides the best experience. That way, you can always find exciting new gear after fights and can't just memorize where all the good loot is, but there will also always be unique items that you can find and go back to on later playthroughs, and that all players can have shared experiences of. For enemy scaling, it's a much messier discussion. Like nessesaryschoolthing says, the system is fundamentally designed after what a tabletop experience is like and theoretically ensures that a player can always have a good adventure anywhere they go. In practice, it has to be done *perfectly* or it's underwhelming. Whereas a DM can choose when to give a hard or easy encounter to adjust the pacing of the adventure, Oblivion often fell into the flaw of encounters staying the same difficulty for most of the game, with too few spikes in the interest curve. Another RPG that had level-scaled enemies years before, Final Fantasy 8, actually wound up making its scaling system so much harder the more you leveled up that experienced FF8 players try to stay at as low of a level as possible through the entire game, avoiding XP like the plague - which is super weird and backwards for a RPG. I don't think I've ever seen level-scaling enemies done well when applied to an entire game like those two tried to - only when it's used on smaller areas or quests, like Morrowind and Skyrim and many others do.

[@mormengil]

FF8 is not even remotely a hard game. It's one of the easiest in the series. The mechanics are so breakable and abusable it's not even funny. Levels are completely irrelevant. Material for weapons and junctioned spells (so GFs too) are where you get your power from.

[@docterfantazmo]

I love *Borderlands* for its characters, world, writing, etc but the loot system drives me up the wall! *Gearbox:* LOOK AT ALL THESE GUNS! *Me:* Yeah, 99.99% of which are completely useless chaff. Give me a gear system like *Bloodbourne* with 30 odd weapons that all feel unique any day.

[@Pro_Triforcer]

Hey, player, there are some good and interesting weapons in this game! Now go kill that boss 100 times to get one of them. Oh, and you have to watch an unskippable cutscene every time.

[@Yinas]

now i wanna call my Alexa "Zoey"... "Zoey, write that down!" :D

[@mahfufufu]

0:06 hidden OwO spotted

[@zeromailss]

Content Conundrum sounds like a rock band, nice video as always btw

[@tnecniw]

Want the best example of one of those games? That came out really recently? Pillars of eternity 2, deadfire rocks this so hard :)

[@lukegraf9365]

Pillars of Eternity is one of few classical RPG's that has been made recently. I love that game.

[@Dude902]

Content rich games are great, I just wish games that aren't "rich" in it could bump it up at least a tiny bit.

[@thibauthanson7670]

Did you really place Dwarf Fortress & Rogue Legacy in the same "procedural content box"? I love both games, but Rogue Legacy only randomizes the dungeons. A more apt comparison would be Dwarf Fortress vs No Man Sky, they both procedurally generate "everything" and even then, DF wins by a landslide. Another contender could be Ultima Ratio Regum, but it's still under wraps. What about other deep roguelikes? UnReal World? ADOM? Cataclysm Dark Days Ahead? Tales of Maj'Eyal? The older games (Neverwinter Nights, Baldur's gate, and other Morrowinds) didn't have that many customization visuals (unless I'm mistaken) you're comparing apple to oranges.

[@a-blivvy-yus]

He lumped them both into the box of "procedural generation done right" - and noted that doing it right varies within the context of the game. Using two distinctive and unique examples only supports the point that doing it differently will provide different results of different quality in different types of games. Your example of comparing DF to NMS shows that DF did procedural everything in a setting where doing so works, while NMS did procedural everything without considering that some of its content would have been much better to be hand-crafted instead.

[@SamGarcia]

Procedural is procedural whether only generating levels or everything. Nowhere does the video state it has to be used for all things.

[@grfrjiglstan]

Hyrule Warriors is a perfect example of doing a lot with comparatively little. After you finish the 10-12 hour campaign, there's hundreds of hours of gameplay left to experience with basically the same assets.

[@killermelga]

1:05 so, nioh? yeah, it's bad

[@mbp9tf]

Ok, I like the inclusion of Zoey as a recurring character in recent episodes. Seemed there was a lot of concern about switching hosts, and I've taken no issues at all with Matt - in fact, I find his energy quite engaging. Zoey is a nice inclusion, tho :D Keep up the good work, EC team!

[@lemmythetrash-goblin8291]

0:05 don't think I didn't spot that Rincewind cameo!

[@Cursetin]

Took me 3 episodes to start loving Matts voice! James used to be my favorite character, but now there's Zoey, so I'm not sure anymore...

[@NicholasKross]

Very helpful! And applicable to one of my projects...

[@snailgirl6]

I'm not a super game expert (but guess you can say that i game a lot), but i think another great example of this is earthbound!!! Not every weapon or item has a new shiny sprite to look at, but instead has charm and creativity in spades!!!! But I'm still trying to imagine what does a peanut cheese bar looks or tastes like....

[@chrisk3824]

GOD every show needs a cat!

[@LuvLikeTruck]

Krzysiek Kozlowski Meow (How did i even use a phone with these paws to reply to your comment?)

[@vimes1002]

I think that this video in particular is the perfect culmination of the facets of Extra Credits which I find most appealing. Although the videos which provide information as to the state of the industry as mingled with some design trends are indeed fantastic in communicating the relatively complex content in such points of discussion in a clear and concrete manner, it is the videos which discuss the design behind games as well as the means by which developers approach implementing or altering such designs where Extra Credits peaks. This particular video has collated many pressing discussion points as present in the game development climate and laid them down, side-by-side, in an organised fashion thereby eliminating the mists of preconceptions and concerns and has indeed reassured developers such as myself. In discussing this content crisis, its effect on game design and the cost issues of the matter, Extra Credits once again helps to establish a sturdy foundation for understanding the myriad of topics discussed. It's good to see Extra Credits return and in full force; sticking to its original subject matter while retaining its high quality of presentation.

[@kotsenrek5682]

Cannot you make your voice sound more... Dan-ish?

[@Aheks1738]

Kotsenre K yeah it feels than dan is using auto tunes i kinda get used to that

[@zayag3543]

I've done procedural generation. It's not easy, but I look at current gen procedural generation and it's pretty weak. It's completely possible that you can have interesting and unique items that seem handcrafted that are randomly generated. You just can't look at the techniques as time savers. Algorithms alone won't make interesting content. You need to combine those with rules that combine algorithms like a recipe and create a multitude of rare occurrences.

[@asalways1504]

It doesn't matter how much money you throw in the production of a AAA game, but how it's used to make a game look and feel genuine.

[@citizenofzorcon7729]

Which is why I'm looking forward to Spider Man PS4 because it genuinely looks like Insomniac put as much effort as they could to making it feel like a Spider-Man story. You have no idea how happy I am to see my favorite super-hero FINALLY being treated with respect by Marvel after nearly a decade of crappy spin-off after crappy spin-off!

[@justmikearias]

Hey Matt, you're getting better and better with every video. Really like the personality you reflect through your narration, keep up the good work!

[@thesquishedelf1301]

4:48 The Legend of Zoey: The Matt of Gamelon

[@klugerersatz5386]

Man, I love that Zelda CDi reference.

[@SidheKnight]

*Mah Boi*

[@dddmemaybe]

SAME...

[@koloblicin9721]

I think the Borderlands series does a pretty good job of balancing the procedurally generated stuff with the unique items etc.

[@TheMAS117]

But what caused the change in AAA games to be more procedurally-generated? Isn't the main point of most AAA games to supposed be more expensive but better?

[@BlazingMagpie]

Apparently mediocre games made often make more profits than good games made rarely.

[@TheJosethemaster]

Yes, in theory at least. But the people who makes them (or more like the people who put the money) only want more money, so the more they sell and less "effort" (cuz effort=money) they waste the better. But is hard to sell a game with 16549 different movesets for example, but is "easy" to sell a game with 4K HD next generation graphics so they focus on that, sometimes at the cost of losing focus on everything else. Theres exceptions, of course, Im just talking about the norm.

[@Hukur_]

Too much content? Check POE (It is like a Diablo 1,2). Every 3 months they add a lot of content without removing the old one. The learning curve is ... POE is really free, is not pay to win.

[@oboretaiwritingch.2077]

Does this include older(gen1-5) VS newer(gen 6 & 7) Pokemons? I'm not talking "OMFG GAEMFREK RAN OUTTA IDAES", I'm talking about Megas and regional variants being "reskin" of older Pokemons rather than making entirely new ones. And so when they could get away with having these "reskins", they can also get away with having less completely new Pokemons in the generation(71 new Pokemons in gen 6 and 85 in gen 7). Alternatively you can even say evolutions/preevolutions added after the base Pokemon's debut generation(Crobat, Kingdra, Gliscor, Electrivire, the babies, etc) may also count, as they're just extend assets of contents that came before.

[@swishfish8858]

As far as the last point goes, no, because they're still all-new creatures with new art and lore. The fact that they're new evolutions works as a base, but not always. It still takes time and resources to extent off of them into a new character.

[@oromain]

When they add too _many_ new Pokes though, like in Gen 5, you end up with a lot of lower quality Pokemon as well. So it's a bit of a trade off there. At this point when we have over 800 Pokemon in the roster and most of the games give you methods to catch more Pokemon than are exclusive to that region, I'm not sure we need to have 100+ new Pokemon every generation. After all, they aren't just reusing "assets" like you say. Sure, they're using old character designs, but every gen they're having to create new assets for every Pokemon, and that's counting *hundreds and hundreds* of them now. And each game has to be able to handle having more and more. Current Pokemon games have to be able to make over 800 unique, fully playable, customizable RPG party members in the game. Because every new Pokemon game has to support _every_ Pokemon. And every time they change the graphics in the series (which they have for every Gen except _maybe_ Gen 7), they have to redo _everything._ I can't really blame them for slowing the addition of new Pokemon at this point.

[@GrayFoxHound9]

Reito Shizaki those skins are fan-pandering, not a time/money saver.

[@neoxus30]

I really like every pokemon generation, the one that felt the worst was Johto, 276211151450391264 possible teams without counting things like different abilities, stats and items)

[@CrimsonBlasphemy]

How many Pokemon are they upto now? Several thousand? How many of those are type/stat/move duplicates? I think Gamefreak can be given some slack at this point.

[@editsonimovie8681]

Don’t automaticmy assume that more=better, especially with world size, but I do agree with this video

[@24karatHAMSTER]

I'm starting to like this Matt guy.

[@francescosorce5189]

Nice video as always, really love how the items in games like Dark souls are more of a story element then a gameplay one, even though by the fact that they are item they must by definition be gameplay components. It serves well both the player who wants to unravel a story and the one who wants to choose the best gear for every occasion and all the players in betheen these two. besides, it gives freedom to the designer to make complicated stories that are still approachable since the item are collected a few at a time. I mean, you don't start a game with 400 different items to analize do you.

[@bshort1974]

I really don't like the new narrator. It sounds like he's shouting and his inflection makes me want to shut off the video. I know things change, but I miss Dan.

[@zedudedaniel]

Turn down your volume :)

[@567secret]

Ah yes, DOS II, whose most powerful weapon is a chest full of items.

[@pleromaprism7581]

Can you please do a video on player generated content

[@wallie1994]

4:48 my KZbin 2008 nostalgia just came up

[@woodrowjang]

Commentary voice sounds good!

[@Katana314]

In a lot of older styles of RPGs, characters were so small onscreen that when swords were just eight pixels of your character during their "swing", even something as important as a weapon often wouldn't have a new world graphic, and would simply be a slot on your inventory screen. The same can even be true of games like Rainbow Six, where your weapon model wasn't in the corner like it now is as a standard. That sort of thing wouldn't fly today, and people do expect to see those weapons they picked up, meaning they've inflated in cost quite a bit. That's also sometimes why you see systems of slotting gemstones into weapons to provide more meaningful pickups that are just one sprite in a menu.

[@thrandompug2254]

love your voice

[@xtremebanana1998]

Lots of diversity or nice looks ...and there's also The Witcher

[@ivazeaandes3801]

Good episode. Almost choked on my drink at the cat part. Thanks...

[@kermiurpal4021]

Was Matt young at this time or was he just shy about showing how deep his voice is because it’s kind of bothering me

[@edfrancis712]

Inquisitor Martyr is a new oen with terrible loot, its the same stuff that tiers up with you and has no uniques or different stuff. Lvl1 laspistols are dropping, 50 lvls later the same laspistols are dropping with just rerolled stats. there is 0 sense youve made runs for anything.

[@silvertheelf]

I actually made an game in my mind with millions of items and stuff, but I made it simple by making a lot of them items and so on...

[@jerri1918]

is this the first time we have seen the back of the extra credits podium

[@greyfox4838]

AAA games have forgotten what makes a game great. In recent years most of the money in game development has been spent on making overworlds bigger and graphics higher and higher, while completely neglecting aesthetics and content. Aesthetic is not equal to higher graphics, and making maps bigger doesn't mean content has increased. A smaller content rich dense world is far better than a large world with huge stretches of empty fields. Most AAA games feel the same, lacking any uniqueness and all using the same generic aesthetic and atmosphere.

[@NunSuperior]

I literally made a game with rims as an unlockable. This vid is SO TRUE.

[@ImaginaryMdA]

Just... less items? Please? I'm growing very fatigued of all those gadget driven RPGs...

[@alexandermadwrite2154]

as i remember a lot of games like that went out because well the worlds where too dang big... i played one of the early elder scrolls games strolled into town looking for a tavern one of five i had to check in the town... the old stile map and the size of the towns made this very hard and because of that one thing game developers have since then had some sort of internal truce to never do that again to save every one time and money or at least thats how i remember hearing it

[@dsargus3]

4:20 HA!!!! YOU FCKED UP!!!! The dices most left and most up are wrong! The Numbers on the opposing sides always count up to 7. 6 and 1 are oppositial (not on the upper dice, shame!) , 5 and 2 are oppositial (not on the dice on the left! SHAME! :P :D) but yeah honestly who cares. EDIT: oh yeah and the dice closes to the Persons But has 3 and 4 next to each other. At this Point i feel like this was done intentional just an easteregg for somene like me to point out in the comments. I feel outplayed. T_T

[@Arkylie]

Okay, I think I can get used to this guy, as long as I keep it on 1.5x speed. The second I slow back to normal, it sounds all out of place :\ It's possible that this is due to my chronic desire to watch KZbin vids faster (which led to me watching most at least 1.25x anyway). But I'm still kinda imprinted on Daniel (to the point of seeking out that vocal style in SRIV), so it's a bit of a toss-up. ( My SRIV voice: kzbin.info/www/bejne/o5vViqGEbcmsmaM )

[@S0oo]

But what is about Bloodborne? It has only a fraction of the Souls weapon library but it feels so good. Every weapon is special and you wanna try it out while in Souls you throw 90% of your weapons into the chest because a quick check on the stats make it useless.

[@PurpleFreezerPage]

I’ve been really in the mood to make an exploration game. But I really want it to be about freedom, EXPLORATION. So I had the idea of not putting items or upgrades in the game, and instead putting almost all my time in the areas and enemies. This creates a big issue with rewarding the player, but I think it’d be really fun to have a game like the original Zelda, but with JUST the sword, and literally hundreds of unique enemies and big areas filled with content. As many as I can make, considering I don’t have to worry about the player object at all beyond making movement and the sword feel right.

[@ArchinaGM]

I've always thought this. Nowadays every game seems like the same one with a different coat of paint. Unless I'm playing a game for it's sheer fair challenge, I want to be immersed in your game. Diablo-like loot and messy procedural generation does not give that to me. Although to me I'd prioritise it as: Mechanics/Gameplay > Atmosphere > Story > Graphics. While a shiny, good looking game sells copies, it will never be remembered fondly if that's all it had going for it and the franchise will become a lost cause later on as "Games are too expensive to make!" will become apparent.

[@RaspK]

On this subject: D&D is perhaps the most notable example of a tabletop RPG whose depth of content varies incredibly, if not in terms of actual numbers then at least in the sense of cultural significance (hell, a great deal of the discussion rests squarely on D&D's both extremely specific examples of magical items *and* its equally long tradition of random-generation tables). For those of you who don't know about this, for instance, let's examine "artifacts." (That's the official D&D term for items of enormous magical power that no mere mortal can create anymore and, in almost all D&D campaigns, that actually includes PCs; there is a whole subgenre within the subgenre of epic-level campaigns which allows basic access to this kind of power. They also come in two forms: lesser artifacts, usually the creations of mythical wizards of unimaginable power, greater spirits, the forces of the cosmos and the like; and greater artifacts, which are often the creations of deities or wizards that rivaled even their power). So, in recent years, artifacts are usually fairly detailed, with specific powers, traits, and even the very few means by which they can be destroyed (a trait obviously copied right out of _The Lord of the Rings_ ); however, in the past, their abilities were actually largely left up to the DM, and even involved a great number of random generation, so that each artifact would feel different every time you encountered it, whether in an entirely different campaign or if you happened to play the same adventure one more time. So there's this whole thing that D&D actually has people playing it with completely different subsets of rules when it comes to how to handle magic items, among other things. And in some settings, such as, for instance, in Birthright, you are not really expected to find a bag of holding all that easily. They exist, but magic is scarce enough and limited enough that you are only going to find one normally (and that is reflected in the way you are supposed to hand out rewards to the players) a lot later than you would do in e.g. a Forgotten Realms (very magic-rich) campaign. I bring up the Bag of Holding explicitly, because I once made exactly the kind of homebrewed item that I felt would find a lot of appreciation with others in the community while also keeping to the theme of the setting. You see, the most important use players have for the BoH is, in fact, carrying all their money, as *coins actually weigh you down in D&D,* meaning that players, especially at lower levels, really come to benefit enormously from being able to put vast volumes of things in a bag that always weighs the same, regardless of contents. Hence, I wrote of a variation of the BoH that can only contain up to (IIRC) the equivalent of 500 gold coins in any metal coinage available, provided they are metallic coins and that they do not add up to more than 500 gold coins in value (so e.g. a really rare coin that would fetch around 500 gold coins would "fill" the purse by itself).

[@gmanjapan]

Disappointed this seemed to be about just superficial content. A world with 1000 items where the only difference is how much damage they do, how quickly they reload, how perfect they aim, how quick they break. That's most AAA games and almost everything you listed fits that description. COD as 1000s of weapons but to some degree there are really only 3-4 abilities and then combinations. You listed "new zones", "new characters", "new abilities, assuming you need to create new animations and particle affects", "abilities that have little or no new affects or animations to go with them", "items that don't show up on the character" I'd put before all of those "actually unique abilities" vs your definition which is a new ability is really only new if you need to create new animations and particle affects". In other words, by your definition a punch and a super punch with particle effects and a wind up are "new abilities" but under my definition new abilities are actually different abilities, not just visual embellishment. A paraglider vs a arrow vs a boomerang that collects items vs a hookshot that lets you teleport to new places vs some heavy boots that let you weight down stuff, vs remote control bombs, first a magnet that levitates things. Those require designing the entire game around them where as the "punch" vs "super punch" requires nothing except animation and particles.

[@Nevernamed]

My favourite example of balance is the Binding of Isaac: Rebirth and it's DLC.

[@eeveegaming4798]

Why don’t people just remeber updates, you make the base game it sells you get money yoy put it back into the game more people buy it repeat intill the game is perfect look at Minecraft, terraria, ark vs. COD, Souls (they do bug fixes), most Nintedo games. Now to be fair AAA games are expected to have the whole package vs. indie which are small time

[@Pro_Triforcer]

Most content is generated, so the game is generic. Duh.

[@Le6barbare]

Make me think about Magic the gathering cards. To my friend who play "the competitive way", a lot of cards seems to be just a color-swap of another, but for me who like to collect them, each "1/1 green beast" are unique because of the arts, names and descriptions. It give a glimpse of a world and this is what I enjoy the most in the game :3

[@nin10doadict]

I agree that game balance isn't always paramount. One of my favorite broken things in any game is the Mush Badge (and its upgrades) from Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga. It completely destroys any difficulty from battles as soon as it becomes available, but you don't have to use it and in fact may not realize it's so game-breaking because it doesn't seem like it at first glance.

[@Dionysus24779]

This need for balance is ruining or at least hurting a lot of games for me, especially when stuff is adjusted after lunch because players discovered ways to use something with unintended effectiveness, it can feel like a "no fun allowed" situation. Games having certain unbalanced elements can be a lot of fun, that's why Bethesda games can be so much fun, because players find all these tricks and exploits that allow for crazy abilities. It's also fun to plan your character to be as optimized as possible, min-max style. But these days every game wants to be the next big esport game and even some single player only games feel the need to hyperbalance everything even when it's not needed. But the whole balance vs. unbalance is a big issue anyway.

[@keiyakins]

If you want an epic example of low fi all the stuff style, look at the porn game Corruption of Champions. There is no way a AAA game could stack endless varieties of transformations like that, even ignoring the sexual themes. Rendering them visually wouldn't work.

[@Ralathar44]

Google "Automation XKCD". That comic he made explains perfectly how well automation and procedural generation work when approached wrong. Use the right tool for the right job and many times you may need to use multiple or even ALL tools.

[@SamGarcia]

As an indie, I disagree that every indie should handcraft before using procedural generation. We have less money and less time than AAA do by magnitudes. It's a case by case basis. And that indies do procedural generation because AAA games are doing it. Most of us are doing it because of Spelunky, other roguelikes, Binding of Isaac, Nuclear Throne, which are all indie.

[@b1uezer]

Man this perfectly encapsulates my feeling about game design in this modern era of gaming. Have you ever played Legend of Mana on the PS? Fantastic example of memorable AND unique content, and one of the reasons I want to try and learn game development, even if I could only capture a fraction of the magic in that game.

[@Edax_Royeaux]

To be honest, I hate that weapons that are just covered in all that crap. I'll always give major props to a sword that looks like a real sword. If there's a story behind that sword, or there's an important inscription on it, all the better, but I don't need those damn bells and whistles, strange colors and glow effects because it make it look like a toy.

[@GiubileiFernando]

I've seen single modders make cool unique weapons in very little time, there's no reason a team of 80 people can't spend a week making content. Take Fallout 4 for instance, how hard was it to give unique weapons a different skin? Or to make receiver quality change the skin from rusty to pristine?

[@Cursetin]

This brings the good old conversation about how graphical constraints made developers think out of the box and how different games felt! I love good graphics, but games were never about them

[@TimCarter84]

As a technical artist, I’m curious what “hand crafted” aspects you think couldn’t be added as a variable in a procedural generation script? I didn’t hear any examples of things that *couldnt* be done with automation.

[@henjwer97]

I know this sounds weird, but Matthew’s voice sounds almost too good. Like there’s this super smooth announcer voice coming out of a bean person. I feel that if you just pitched the voice up a little bit, it’d be golden. But other than that, great episode