The CONTEXT Of The Gospel of John UNDERMINES Unconditional Election | Leighton Flowers

Dr. Leighton Flowers joins AK Richardson to discuss his latest debate with Dr. James White over John 6.
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#LeightonFlowers #Calvinism #John6 #UnconditionalElection

[@coreykeplinger3391]

I think it's fair to say that Calvinists believe in Selection and not Election.

[@JesusChristisKing94]

Not that far from natural selection in evolution…😅

[@andrewjackson8244]

Calvinism is starting to creep up in my church. New Senior Pastor is a Calvinist with 80% of the books in his office from John Mcarthur, the Elder Board is very Calvinistic, and a lot of the Sundayschool teachers and Deacons are Calvinists. I so appreciate your videos Leighton because they have helped me defend the character of the God I love in an impactful way that demands answers that the Calvinists can't give. Love you brother and God's blessings on you, your family, and your ministry.

[@pwx13]

Do they believe in Cessationism, if so run

[@andrewjackson8244]

@@pwx13 i haven't asked that yet. I don't want to run because I so enjoy the ministry I have their with the children of the church. I am going to stand loud and proud until they kick me out.

[@davidpilcher3283]

That's not Calvinism creeping in, that's Calvinism in total control.

[@andrewjackson8244]

@@davidpilcher3283 I would normally agree with you, but Calvinism is not taught from the pulpit and is not brought up (yet) in Sundayschool

[@mikelyons2831]

Yep. They are imposing Calvinism/another gospel on you.

[@AKRichardson]

Thank you Leighton for the discussion and for your work in these matters!

[@trebmaster]

Thank you for your excellent work!

[@zeljkonedimovic206]

Bro Leighton, you are doing an outstanding job of exposing human philosophy and belief systems that are contrary to the teachings of Scripture. Support and regards from Kragujevac, Serbia 🙏

[@ericestrada5150]

My church is feeling the heavy influences of calvinism and it is so messed up when you research John Calvin himself. When I read about Paul, Peter, John, James, I want to get to know these great men of God but when I read about Calvin I just want to run far away. At my church, the pastor always quotes john piper(calvinism), matt chandler (wokeism), tim keller and almost every calvanist preacher. It's disheartening to say the least.

[@dw6528]

DW: Calvinism essentially adds Gnostic and NeoPlatonic concepts into Christian doctrine. The two primary characteristics of Calvinism - which make it controversial are: 1) DUALISM (From Gnosticism) 2) DETERMINISM ( From NeoPlatonism) The DUALISTIC component in which "Good" and "Evil" are Co-Equal, Co-Complimentary, and Co-Necessary. This essentially blurs the delineating line between "Good" and "Evil" Calvin's god for example - creates the vast majority of individuals within the total human population - specifically for eternal torment in a lake of fire - for his "Good" pleasure. So we have "Evil" for the sake of "Good" pleasure. John Calvin -quote by the eternal *GOOD PLEASURE* of god though the reason does not appear, they are *NOT FOUND* but *MADE* worthy of destruction. - (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of god pg 121) The DETERMINISM is found in Calvinism's doctrine of decrees. John Calvin explains -quote The creatures...are so governed by the secret counsel of god, that *NOTHING HAPPENS* but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed. (Institutes 1. 16. 3) Thus - in Calvinism - an impulse cannot come to pass within a human brain - unless that impulse is knowingly and willingly decreed. These two components within Calvinism are the core components of controversy within Christianity ever since Calvin introduced it in the 1500's And it is these two components which Calvinists themselves secretly internally struggle with. And these are the two components which Calvinists try very hard to hide.

[@smarterworkout]

For the first time since becoming a believer, learning calvinism has led me to question my salvation. I know i am saved - but occasionally a doubt creeps in. Thanks calvinism.

[@bobbyadkins6983]

Calvinism is false. Don't let it do that to you.

[@marorey-yc2qx]

Im blessed that the Lord raised people like you to expose lies

[@grizz4489]

The purpose of the gospel of John is to tell people ( unbelievers ) HOW they can have everlasting life. Election has to do with service of believers.

[@dw6528]

@@kgar5String DW: Kevin Thompson (Beyond the Fundamentals) provides a spread-sheet of all of the instances within scripture where the concept of "Election" is stated. I think you will be shocked to see how prevalent "Election to service" is a constant theme throughout scripture. Also - if you review all of the N.T. Authors who identify people as "Elect" - you will find the people who are identified as "Elect" are always people who are *CURRENTLY* believers. There is no N.T. Author who identifies people as "Elect" who are *NOT* believers or *NOT YET* believers.

[@grizz4489]

@@dw6528 Thankyou for your insightful comment. Very well done !

[@grizz4489]

​@@dw6528 If we expand on the meaning of election it might go like this........ God calls / summons ALL born-again believers to a life of service for Him in THIS life. Some born-again believers do not respond to this call and some do. Of those who do respond and begin serving Him, some are NOT faithful in serving Him and some are faithful in serving Him in this life. In the future when Jesus begins ruling in His Kingdom He will elect / choose those who served Him faithfully in this life to serve Him in His Kingdom /the KOH ! Election has to do with future service in the KOH for faithful believers !

[@trebmaster]

AK has a fantastic radio voice.

[@courtneysmith370]

Its hard to find a biblical sound church in my area that is not Calvinist

[@proveallthings_521]

Wow, that many... what part of the world are you in?

[@mikelyons2831]

Personally, I believe it is an End-Times thing. It's not the gospel of scripture.

[@shawnkeith1164]

You'd be hard-pressed to find a Calvinist church that is Biblically sound.

[@controlclerk]

Exactly.

[@delivefreenana]

Seriously! Can anyone tell me how to find a good non-cal dispensational church?? My independent Baptist one unfortunately is having more J Piper books in its store and SS lessons from Ephesians leaning Cal

[@EutecticEmpyrean]

Have you ever thought about comparing the philosophy of predestination in Islam with the philosophy of Calvinism, or would that be too edgy? "As for those who persist in disbelief, it is the same whether you warn them or not-they will never believe. Allah has sealed their hearts and their hearing, and their sight is covered. They will suffer a tremendous punishment." - Quran 2:6-7

[@jeremylogan878]

Calvanism is confusing and a clear contradiction.

[@dougdozier8782]

How can it be a clear contradiction if it's confusing?

[@brendaleehayter8464]

@@dougdozier8782 Look at their claims and proof texts, they are a contradiction This is clear to see. 👍

[@dougdozier8782]

@@brendaleehayter8464 it can't be a clear contradiction if it's also confusing.

[@truthseeker5698]

Deceived deluded Doug, consider remedial reading comprehension tutoring. Sola de Lord have mercy.

[@dw6528]

DW: Yes! The reason for the confusion and the contradiction - is the underlying doctrine of decrees is so extremely radical. Calvinists understand if people see the radical nature of the doctrine - they are not going to accept it. So Calvinists have become highly reliant upon DOUBLE-SPEAK in order to obfuscate things within the doctrine they calculate people will reject.

[@Charles-rb6jr]

Thanks for sharing your insight. I believe you are correct and in agreement with the entirety of Scripture whereas the opposing view is not.

[@donaldbryce1939]

Thanks

[@DavidBrooks-mq6js]

(Posting as Joyce) I figured out how to contribute financially, Thank you!!!

[@johnknight3529]

Mr. White; "They're seeking Jesus, they're literally seeking after Jesus, but Jesus knows they're only looking for the signs..." If so, why would that be a "wrong reason"? It seems to me that's exactly what a believer in the Father would be looking for. (Since signs is how God demonstrated that someone was speaking for Him, was a true Prophet of His.) "... they're only looking for the food." But he just said "they're only looking for the signs"? Looking for the food is what someone who didn't really believe in the Father would be looking for, it seems to me . . The word 'only' is being used for two rather different things here. (Not a good sign, as I read the Book ; )

[@dw6528]

DW: The foundational core of Calvinism is EXHAUSTIVE DIVINE DETERMINISM (EDD) as enunciated in Calvinism's doctrine of decrees John Calvin explains -quote The creatures...are so governed by the secret counsel of god, that *NOTHING HAPPENS* but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed. (Institutes 1. 16. 3) Every impulse that comes to pass within every human brain - has been infallibly predestined. So that is what James is looking for within this text. In Jame's mind - Jesus is simply looking to see what has been infallibly predestined within the minds of these people. In this case - James assumes these people were predestined to not believe - but only desire signs.

[@johnknight3529]

@@dw6528 - I realize that, so even signs become pointless (mysterious ; ) activity by God, on total predestination. But Jesus didn't seem (to me) to think so. In fact he seems to believe just the opposite when (in John 4) "Then when he was come into Galilee, the Galilaeans received him, having seen all the things that he did at Jerusalem at the feast: for they also went unto the feast. So Jesus came again into Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine. And there was a certain nobleman, whose son was sick at Capernaum. When he heard that Jesus was come out of Judaea into Galilee, he went unto him, and besought him that he would come down, and heal his son: for he was at the point of death. Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe. The nobleman saith unto him, Sir, come down ere my child die. Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. And the man believed the word that Jesus had spoken unto him, and he went his way. And as he was now going down, his servants met him, and told him, saying, Thy son liveth. Then enquired he of them the hour when he began to amend. And they said unto him, Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him. So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house." (I don't believe Mr. White believes the Book is Legitimate. I believe he's faking it for some reason . . or perhaps has simply become a worshipper of his own imaginings above the God of the Book. (Solo imaginura ; )

[@DavidBrooks-mq6js]

(Posting as Joyce) I am beyond frustrated and almost "besides myself" about the issue of Calvinism. I have had a conversation recently with a family friend. I asked them if Jesus died for everyone and he said, "no". MY heart almost stopped!!! WHAT???? I couldn't even reply to him, I was so taken back. He wants to sit down with our Bibles at some point and discuss this. I am not going to. He has gone to college and studied theology and "knows more than I do". He was also using the Greek to explain God's word. When I asked a different person (Calvinist) if they had asked Jesus to save them, he wouldn't answer my question. He kept talking over me and would not listen to what I was saying. The Calvinists say that if we have a choice in our salvation, then we are taking the glory for ourselves. I say NO to that! It was my choice, but God gets all the glory. I am praying that their eyes will be opened. I am not saying that I am better than them, or anyone, but I know what the Bible says, and I know what I believe. Calvinism is a serious issue that causes division and confusion. (Sound like Satan??) They say it's a secondary issue. Not when people walk away from God completely because Calvinism makes God seem cruel. I know God is not cruel, he is loving and just. THANK YOU for what you are doing!!!! How can I contribute to your channel financially?? I am praying about this constantly lately!! I believe that Calvinism is on the rise, sadly!!!

[@justsomeguy9192-hx7jv]

Did Jesus die for everyone? Well, will there be people in hell? Yes. Which means His death did not atone for them. So He did not die for everyone since some people will reject Him. That’s all limited atonement means. I’m not a hyper Calvinist or anything but I understand where the doctrine comes from. I don’t think less of anyone who disagrees with it. It’s not a different gospel but an attempt to explain the connection between God’s sovereignty, the use of the word “eklektos” (appears 22 times in NT), and how some can hear the gospel and respond and others just don’t get it (They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart Eph 4:18 -> “So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.”Romans‬ ‭9‬:‭18‬ ‭ESV‬‬) An arrogant Calvinist is a contradiction since the belief is we are powerless..dead in transgression..no one seeks God..no one understands..unless by His grace they are regenerated and given a new heart to believe. No room for boasting there. It was all God. Most of the PhD’s I know (and I live in a college town so there are quite a few) are really drawn to these teachings. I found total depravity humbling but others are really off put by it. Anyway..Calvinist’s don’t sit in church reading his works (strongest sola scriptura church I’ve been to is Calvinist leaning)..just use it to try connect the dots. It is by grace we are saved through faith in Christ alone. And how it all really works is past my finite brain but for some reason we as sinful man just can’t help but speculate and argue over it.

[@MaryLewis-jt5jx]

Mr. Flowers if you have not read a PDF by Oliver B Greene you may want to take a look."The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Ephesians By Oliver b. Greene Copyright @1963 Chapter 3. It is short but to the point on God's election on a Free Will standpoint. I think you will like it. My best to you and yours. Mary Lewis

[@emf49]

These hard core ‘young, restless and reform’ guys tend to ‘groom’ young Christian’s and the biblically ignorant into their philosophy. It’s very intentional. I’ve been watching this process unfold with family and friends for over two years now. I just keep praying and giving it to the Lord but it certainly is disheartening. I’m reading Dave Hunt’s book “What Love Is This?” and it’s a real eye opener. 😳

[@mooaaron]

What caught my attention about the John 6:44 passage when I was looking at it was the people who knew Jesus was calling Jesus out for having an earthly mother and father... and Jesus took them back to his claim of deity one and equal with God the Father... Jesus keeps taking them back to himself being the source of life, (ie. the bread of Life)

[@pazeluz4476]

It took a long time for me to return to the First Love, and no longer subscribe to Calvinism. I still attend a very Calvinistic Presbyterian church. I used to Calvinism as “doctrine of grace”. I now see great parallels with the term “pro choice” and “pro abortion” terms. You control the language, you control the debate.

[@dw6528]

DW: Very well said! And once we look under the hood in Calvinism - we start to discover that it is in fact NOT a "Doctrine of Grace" But it is actually a doctrine of "Good-Evil" Calvinism contains two unique components: 1) DUALISM in which "Good" and "Evil" are Co-Equal, Co-Complimentary, and Co-Necessary This blurs the delineating line between "Good" and "Evil" Calvin's god can commit unlimited "Evils" And the Calvinist is required to call whatever Calvin's god does "Good" Thus the delineating line between "Good" and "Evil" is blurred. That is why Calvin's god is perennially observed as an "AUTHOR of Evil" 2) The second unique component is EXHAUSTIVE DIVINE DETERMINISM (EDD) Every impulse within every human brain is programmed into an INFALLIBLE script. Calvinist Robert R. McLaughlin -quote "God merely *PROGRAMMED* into the divine decrees all our thoughts, motives and actions"(The Doctrine of Divine Decree pg 4)

[@RedeemedRogueMolecules]

I love Chris dare as a brother. Brilliant dude. Pray for him often.

[@JasonJrake]

He’s brave for approaching Calvinists with annihilationism. They seem as emotionally attached to eternal conscious torment as they are to God arbitrarily choosing who gets it. He’s definitely on my short list of Determinists who can be honest in debate. Most trade their humility and openness in when buying into the “doctrines of grace.”

[@dw6528]

DW: I agree - Chris is a very nice person. But he often struggles trying to deny components of Calvinism which John Calvin himself clearly stated as fact. For example - Chris in one dialog tried to argue against Calvin's god being the *CAUSE* of whatsoever comes to pass. John Calvin in multiple places clearly states Calvin's god as the *CAUSE* of all things. So we find Chris struggling against his own doctrine.

[@thereseservais924]

Thank you for your take on the "U". I'm a believer saved by grace through faith in Jesus (atonement) and not a calvinist. But I have questions about it (there are calninist churches and schools here in The Hague and I've met some people there). Your explanations help me to frame my feelings and convictions about their beliefs. What God means is most important to me. Thank you and God bless you!

[@dw6528]

DW: Calvinism is a mixture of Gnostic / NeoPlatonic / and Christian concepts which evolved from Augustine. There are two primary components within Calvinism - which make for its perennial controversy. 1) DUALISM (from Gnosticism) in which "Good" and "Evil" are Co-Equal, Co-Complimentary, and Co-Necessary 2) DETERMINISM (From NeoPlatonism) in which every impulse in the human brain - is *PROGRAMMED* into an infallible script - and humans are granted NO SAY and NO CHOICE in the matter. These two components are the core of the controversy perennially between Calvinism and NORMAL Christianity. And these two components are what all Calvinists *SECRETLY* internally struggle with. This struggle forces Calvinists to *OBFUSCATE* dark aspects of the doctrine they internally find unpalatable. The result of this - is that it forces Calvinist ministries into various forms and types of dishonesty. The Calvinist needs to *EVADE* the unpalatable aspects of the doctrine And this is what produces the various forms of dishonesty. Lies of omission are ubiquitous in Calvinist statements. The language is designed to paint *FALSE PICTURES* of divine benevolence while *OBFUSCATING* divine malevolence. Any Christian who is unfamiiar with these aspects of Calvinism - is vulnerable to being mislead by Calvinists

[@grizz4489]

​@@kgar5StringJesus did not say say that the gift of everlasting life is through choosing Him, He did not say provide faith for yourself. Jesus simply told people to " believe " in Him and that all those who believe in Him have everlasting life and will never perish ! Simple !

[@philipatoz]

There are so many passages that contradict Calvinism. And how could one ever preach the Gospel as an invitation to come into fellowship with Jesus, when the church you are part of doesn't truly believe this to be a truthful invitation for everyone. How can a Calvinist ever relate a passage like Romans 10:9 to an unbeliever? "... that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." NO! The Calvinist must believe everyone must first wait on God to be ABLE to believe, while, of course, also believing that most are actually INCAPABLE of doing so, and were never desired to (by God).

[@claudecharest7018]

John 1 ; 12-13

[@dionsanchez4478]

LOL. NO. We do what God commanded: proclaim the good news and give every man a reason for what we believe. Preach Christ crucified because we water and God SAVES. Clear son?

[@dougdozier8782]

Can you love God and Love Neighbor without the inward work of the Spirit by your own free will?

[@philipatoz]

​@@dougdozier8782, No! NO one can move toward God or do anything spiritually good without the help of God’s grace! (John 6:44) HOWEVER, it is God’s will that ALL come to Him - as He WANTS to pour out His grace upon ALL persons, IF they will receive and submit to Him: “For He is patient with you, not wanting ANYONE to perish, but EVERYONE to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). “Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not RATHER that he should turn from his way and live?” (Ezekiel 18:23) 1Timothy 2: “3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires ALL people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Again, our receiving and submittance to Christ requires God’s grace - again, which He WANTS to apply to ALL, per HIS criteria and per HIM having made it possible upon the Cross! “Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and WHOEVER wishes, let him take the FREE gift of the water of life.” (Revelation 22:17)

[@philipatoz]

@@dougdozier8782, No! NO one can move toward God or do anything spiritually good without the help of God’s grace! (John 6:44) However, it is God’s will that ALL come to Him - as He WANTS to pour out His grace upon ALL persons, IF they will receive and submit to Him: “For He is patient with you, not wanting ANYONE to perish, but EVERYONE to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). “Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?” (Ezekiel 18:23) 1Timothy 2: “3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires ALL people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Again, our receiving and submittance to Christ requires God’s grace - which He WANTS to apply to ALL, per HIS criteria and per HIM having made it possible upon the Cross! “Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and WHOEVER wishes, let him take the FREE gift of the water of life.” (Revelation 22:17)

[@bobthrasher8226]

Thanks for linking up with AK - one smart cookie! Have you seen his debate(s?) with Matt Slick?

[@proveallthings_521]

AK Richardson believes you can lose your Salvation.

[@gk.4102]

​@@proveallthings_521 And?

[@bobthrasher8226]

@@proveallthings_521 But he is quite smart about Calvinism... We're not going to agree with hardly anyone on everything.

[@bobthrasher8226]

@@proveallthings_521 Incidentally, isn't the "P" of TULIP roughly the same as "you can't lose your salvation?" In practice, many people think of it that way. "Once you're in, you're in!"

[@proveallthings_521]

@@bobthrasher8226 I believe "p" in tulip may also refer thr inibility to backslide. I believe a Christian can greive the Spirit, but not lost the Spirit. That what I mean, you dont have to be a Calvinist to believe in "Eternal Security" One you are born again, you cannot be unborn. Our adoption in Christ is forever!

[@robertcliatt]

Do you offer Bible studies with people? If so I’d like to join them.

[@Yaas_ok123]

Your new book is not available in Finland ! Help...anyone, call "somebody" !

[@pazeluz4476]

A good question: is there any difference between “doctrine of grace” and “tulip”?

[@DamonNomad82]

One who professes the former will almost always adhere to most or all of the five points of the latter...

[@dw6528]

DW: "Doctrines of grace" is a marketing phrase for Calvinism - just like “Breakfast of champions.” is a marketing phrase for Wheaties. . But is is critical to recognize Calvinism contains DUALISM - as a component of Gnosticism derived from Augustine. In Calvinism's DUALISM "Good" and "Evil" are Co-Equal, Co-Complimentary, and Co-Necessary. But the critical aspect of this is that Calvin's god decrees "Evil" which is called "Good" For example - Calvin's god creates the vast majority of individuals within the total human population - specifically for eternal torment in a lake of fire - for his "GOOD" pleasure. John Calvin -quote by the eternal *GOOD PLEASURE* of god though the reason does not appear, they are *NOT FOUND* but *MADE* worthy of destruction. - (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of god pg 121) The component of divine "Evil" within Calvinism is what Calvinists have a high urgency to *OBFUSCATE* So calling Calvinism a "Doctrine of Grace" is the Calvinists way of *OBFUSCATING* the component of divine "Evil" Calvinism is actually a doctrine of "Good-Evil"

[@jay1871]

Any discussion on 1 Cor 1:30? I would like some commentary to chew on and help think through the implications of this!

[@letstalktech96]

I don’t think anyone would disagree that it’s by Gods doing we are In Christ? Once you meet the condition set forth by God, you are then placed in Christ, you’re born from above.

[@jay1871]

@@letstalktech96 I’m with you. The Calvin virus in me says this is a “proof text” for unconditional election but I’m narrow in my thinking here I guess.

[@dw6528]

DW: It is critical to understand - the human mind interprets data in accordance to what it already holds as unquestionable truth. For example - many years ago - people were taught the sun orbits around the earth - and they held that as unquestionable truth - and they also held scripture as affirming truth. Consequently - those people could not interpret any text within scripture which would contradict the idea of the sun orbiting around the earth. The Calvinist is taught EXHAUSTIVE DIVINE DETERMINISM (EDD) as unquestionable truth So his mind is naturally going to interpret texts within scripture to affirm EDD The NON-Calvinist mind is not conditioned to adopt EDD as unquestionable truth So his mind is not conditioned to read EDD into the text.

[@AlexanderosD]

Imposing Calvinistic theistic determinism onto Jesus is kind of interesting. If Jesus has an unconditionally select chosen group that were already determined to believe; Then it sure is weird that Jesus gets so annoyed with those who do not believe. 😂

[@dionsanchez4478]

The prophets got mad too? And? It proves that God has a moral will that all people are called to obey it. But scripture is clear in that God has a decretive will! Thanks for playing!

[@brendaleehayter8464]

@@dionsanchez4478 So like your average Calvinists worshipper , Jesus spoke out of both sides of his mouth ? Ain’t no game son.

[@dw6528]

@@dionsanchez4478 DW: If the prophets believed in Calvinistic theistic determinism - to then be annoyed at what their god made infallibly come to pass would be just as irrational as it would be for Jesus! :-] And it is understandable that a Calvinist will see Calvinistic determinism within scripture - because his brain is conditioned to see it whether its there or not! :-D

[@dw6528]

@@dionsanchez4478 Calvin's god has two wills 1) His SECRET will is *DETERMINATIVE* it is what determines whatsoever comes to pass 2) His ENUNCIATED will is *NON-DETERMINATIVE* and in most cases is the opposite of his SECRET will 3) When his ENUNCIATED will is the opposite of his SECRET will - it functions as a *FALSE REPRESENTATION* of his SECRET will.

[@jeffreybomba]

Reading in order? Have you ever heard a Calvinist deal with Romans 1? They have to pause, jump to chapter 9, and then invert chapter 1 accordingly. Same thing with chapter 5, which opens with an obviously anti-Calvinist statement.

[@StoneysWorkshop]

Could Pharaoh have listened to Moses?

[@salvadaXgracia]

Pharaoh could have been a God fearing man as a younger man and God would not have made him Pharaoh and punished him. God would have found another man who was stubborn and evil and made him Pharaoh instead. God doesn't give us unlimited chances to repent. After a life of hatred of God, God can punish us either with early death or by hardening first and then death.

[@jimphillips2380]

I agree that in the plagues Pharoah wilfully rejected God's grace, and hardened his own heart until in the 10th plague God hardened Pharoahs heart. You can't test the Lord too many times before He casts final judgement. ​@salvadaXgracia

[@SheilaODrane]

Could and would listen are very different things.

[@StoneysWorkshop]

@@jimphillips2380 but Exodus 7:3 (Yahweh speaking)

[@duncanwashburn]

Here's one person's opinion: When we are not "in Christ" we are in the state mentioned in Eph 2:1-4. When we receive God's free gift as alluded to in John 1:12, offered because of God's grace, received because God's gifted all the ability to choose by faith (or reject by faith in something else), which is salvation, we become "in Christ". All those "in Christ" are elected and predestined; all those that reject the free gift of receiving Christ, remain "outside of Christ" and unsaved. ALL glory belongs to and goes to God Who is the Giver of ALL good gifts (James 1:17)

[@jimphillips2380]

Not to get off topic too much to start but our church is being infiltrated with something I believe is also biblically incorrect... the charismatic are showing up and causing a stir. I'm tiring of the false usage and interpretation of the Apostolic gifts of the Spirit.

[@dw6528]

DW: There is a serious issue with the church being infiltrated with new-age teachings disguised as charismatic teachings. This is also linked with concepts found in Necromancy. A critical component of Necromancy is the person is to *RELINQUISH VOLITION* to the spirit. This can take the form of relinquishing control of a part of the body to the spirit - or relinquishing control of the mind to the spirit. The Holy Spirit does not "Take control" of a person - but a *COUNTERFEIT* spirit will. Take for example - Moses being commanded to hold up his rod before the red sea. Moses obeys - and God supernaturally moves the water Notice here that God is not "Taking control" of Moses body. But we do have examples in the N.T. of a spirit "Taking Control" of a person's body. So the new-age teaching teaches the believer to *RELINQUISH VOLITION* to the spirit. So be very watchful to look for this component within any charismatic teachings

[@Yan-Shcherbyna]

Why do people hate on Calvinists so much. I’m not even a Calvinist, but I respect them.

[@truthseeker5698]

Calvinists are theological scammers that deceive through a hacking of scriptures for their deception.

[@dw6528]

DW: This is an emotional rather than rational response. The Christian is to love the sinner but hate the sin. Thus the Christian does not hate the Calvinist

[@emf49]

I think many people have seen the damage done to their family and friends, so it’s linked to emotions. As someone else just said, it’s not the person being hated but the doctrine itself.

[@TwitchyThelogian]

I debated the guy on the left. I want to debate the one on the right.

[@jakemartinez2525]

That’s kinda rude, their names are literally at the bottom of their camera views.

[@brendaleehayter8464]

Who cares what you want, In fact AK & Leighton we know But who are you 🤦🏻‍♀️

[@dw6528]

DW: Debates unfortunately - have perennially been more driven by a desire to WIN rather than a desire for truth. And when we examine for example - James White's typical strategy of evading the point of contention - and instead deflecting to Ad-hominems, red-herrings, and non-sequiturs - these serve as indicators - the urgency is the need to produce an appearance.

[@mikelyons2831]

👿 "Hath God indeed said?" "Surely God sent His Son to only redeem a pre-selected limited few from the sting death caused by sin. All can't call upon Jesus for salvation can they? Don't you believe God is sovereign? Therefore, salvation is all of God & He only causes some to be irresistibly regenerated...now go tell fellow believers this is what God wants you to believe... would I ever lie?"

[@dw6528]

DW: All of those statements are obvious indicators of a Calvinistically influenced mind.

[@chrisp9500]

​@@dw6528he's taking it back to the Garden.

[@mikelyons2831]

That was satire against Calvinism

[@dw6528]

@@chrisp9500 DW: In Calvinism - every event - and every impulse within the human brain (Adam's brain) is infallibly predestined by a decree which does not grant existence to any ALTERNATIVE from that which it decrees. Thus in Calvinism - the event of Adam [EATING] was decreed - and that decree does not grant existence to any ALTERNATIVE. Also - the impulse in Adam's brain to [EAT] would also have to be decreed. And NO ALTERNATIVE impulse granted existence within Adam's brain. Obviously - in Calvinism - Adam is not granted a CHOICE in the matter - simply because NO ALTERNATIVE existed for Adam to choose.

[@dw6528]

@@mikelyons2831 AH! Got it! :-D

[@Brvhrt77]

Gnostics wrestling scriptures to their destruction: The good I would, I can't do, and the evil I wouldn't do, I do; but it's not my fault, It's God's, Adam's, my created sinful Nature's fault. So with my good intentions, my spirit, I serve God; but my flesh I continue sinning, unable to cease from sin; but thank God for grace! Let us sin that grace may abound, let us do evil that good may come. Like a dog to it's vomit, a pig to it's mire, like Lot's wife, like a ship wavering to and fro given a license to sin, 70X7 a day, 2 masters, God is our 1st love, sin is our 2nd!!! We can't outsin God's grace! Gnostics make the commandments of God noneffective by their seducing spirit and doctrine of devils. I am Christ, the way, truth, and life, read my books, follow me

[@HonorGod-MakeDisciples.]

Old Covenant worldview the Father did the drawing. New Covenant Jesus is doing the drawing.( John 11:32 )" No one comes to the Father except through me." "ALL authority is given to me".

[@ChristianJames559]

First. Lol

[@jeffreybomba]

You miss part of NOT BY THE WILL OF MAN. Just because YOU say you believe, does not mean that you believe according to God’s definition. Just as Cain approached God incorrectly, many profess His name and say they believe, but God knows better, and they are not saved. This is where both man AND God chooses.

[@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi]

What definition is that?

[@grizz4489]

The condition for everlasting life is not " choosing " Jesus. It is " believing " in Him for everlasting life . Belief is not an act of the will. A person does NOT have to will or decide to believe something.

[@nesto2851]

Second lol

[@controlclerk]

No one said the T and I are taught in vs 44. Verse 44 literally says no one is able. For you to say the T and I come from that shows you understand what the verse is actually saying.

[@EugeneHolley-rc6ry]

My understanding is that the Calvinist believes he is born again, or regenerated before he can receive the faith to be saved. If that is true, how do they explain the ability of all of the O.T. believers that were justified by believing God. They were not able to be regenerated before they believed God. John 7:37-39 The water represents the Holy Spirit that was not yet given before his death, burial, and resurrection, for him to be glorified. John 14:12-26 Jesus said after he had gone away, he would send the Holy Spirit or Comforter and in Titus 3:5 he saves us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost, which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our savior. We must be baptized by the Holy Spirit, he and Jesus are one and the same and he washes us in the blood of Jesus our savior. Revelation 1:5-6 Jesus washes us from our sins in his own blood. Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace. Colossians 1:14-20. What the Calvinist teaches about regeneration is not scripturally possible.

[@dw6528]

DW: The foundational core of Calvinism is EXHAUSTIVE DIVINE DETERMINISM (EDD) as enunciated within Calvinism's doctrine of decrees. John Calvin explains -quote The creatures...are so governed by the secret counsel of god, that *NOTHING HAPPENS* but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed. (Institutes 1. 16. 3) So to your question - Calvin's doctrine stipulates - each person's election status is INFALLIBLY FIXED before that person is created. So there is only *ONE* NECESSARY CONDITION for everyone's eternal destiny - which is an infallible decree All other things - such as regeneration, faith, etc are all simply *BYPRODUCTS* of the decree. So in Calvinism - they are not NECESSARY for anyone's salvation The decree is the determining factor.

[@robertwheeler1158]

The problem with the original debate is the way the question was stated: Does John 6:44.45 teach Unconditional Election? And strictly speaking, the answer is "no" -- it doesn't specifically address that issue. What it does describe, however, is human inability and efficacious grace (The "T" and the "I"), which White acknowledged.

[@gk.4102]

_"Does John 6:44-45 teach Unconditional Election? And strictly speaking, the answer is no"_ And yet, JW and most Calvinists still use it as proof-text for UE. _"What it does describe, however, is human inability and efficacious grace (The "T" and the "l"), which White acknowledged."_ On top of showing that UE isn't taught anywhere in John 6:44-45, Leighton also tried to debunk the T and I presuppositions, but JW ran away from them, then Calvinists accused Leighton of dealing with "other topics". You can't win with these Calvinists.

[@ABC123jd]

John 6:44-45 definitely doesn't demonstrate that humans are born unable to believe the gospel

[@robertwheeler1158]

@@ABC123jd What the text states, quite clearly and plainly, is that "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him . . ."

[@AndrewJohnH]

​@@robertwheeler1158 You're right. That IS what it says. What it doesn't say is, "No one can refuse to come to me unless the Father who sent me has never drawn them." But that is what your assumption reads into the text. You may believe it is implied, but the verse does not go so far as to prove what you say it does.

[@robertwheeler1158]

@@AndrewJohnH Your statement "No one can refuse to come to me unless the Father who sent me has never drawn them" is a nonsensical caricature. What Bible teaches is this: All human beings are naturally dead in their trespasses and sins. They suppress the truth in unrighteousness. That is why they cannot come to Christ unless the Holy Spirit changes their hearts and enlightens their minds. This is why Jesus earlier said, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me . . ." (John 6:37), and "Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me" (v. 45).

[@proveallthings_521]

AK Richardson believes you can lose your Salvation. Very sad! You don't have to be a Calvinist to believe "Eternal Security"!

[@grizz4489]

You are correct. He believes in conditional salvation and rejects eternal security. It is amazing how so many people just explain away and refuse to believe that Jesus gives irrevocable, irreversible everlasting life by simply believing in Him . One glance at the serpent, one sip from the living water, one moment of faith results in spiritual birth !

[@benjaminofperrin]

Of course you can lose your salvation because salvation is conditional. "IF you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus AND believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" (Romans 10:9). This is why Jesus preached the parable of the seeds. Do not let the cares of the world take you away from God. Even Satan who was in heaven, fell from heaven. This is why we have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

[@grizz4489]

@@benjaminofperrin Jesus said that whoever believes in Him has everlasting life and will not perish. Yet you are saying that whoever believes in Jesus can most certainly perish.

[@benjaminofperrin]

@@grizz4489 Just to be clear, you are saying that if someone confesses Jesus and believes in Him and yet later turns to another "god" and denies Him that this person will still go to heaven?

[@grizz4489]

@@benjaminofperrin Not a single passage of scripture that you mentioned says ANYTHING that refutes eternal security.

[@markemma5]

I appreciate the counter arguments and I’m certain you’re correct. But please, enough of James White. He’s a poor debater and thinker. Hashing and rehashing him over and over, video upon video is getting so tedious.

[@user-hi1cf1wn4w]

At 2:53, Leighton makes the assertion that in John 10:26, Jesus means that they do not believe in Jesus because they did not believe in the Father. This is a demonstrably false understanding of the text. John 8:47 tells us that “He who is of God hears the words of God…” That is, people are “of God” before they truly hear the words of God, because Jesus says that not being of God is why people don’t hear; it is His sheep who hear the voice of Yahweh (John 10:27) who then follow Him. The order is VERY important. So who are these individuals? Are these merely good Jews, the Old Testament/pre-crucifixion, true followers of Yahweh, who are already in a relationship with the Father, that He then draws to the Son (John 6:44)? After all, Jesus does draw a distinction between the true followers and the pretenders in John 8:39-47 who only thought that their Father was God. Well, it certainly could include them, but by no stretch is it only limited to them, since Jesus, in referencing the Gentiles, declares that He has other sheep that are not of this fold that He must bring into the fold, children of God that are scattered abroad, see John 10:14-16, 11:51-52; here He refers to all people groups (John 12:32). These are individuals who were not “true worshippers” of the Father prior to coming to Jesus. And we know that the gospel does not draw absolutely everyone without exception, because it is folly to the Gentiles, and a stumbling block to the Jews (1 Corinthians 1:18, 23), so it does not draw, but repel. The point is that true worshippers of Yahweh must first be “of God,” or else they could not hear the voice of God nor have His word abiding in them in order to be true followers of Yahweh in the first place (John 5:37-40, 8:47) - *being “of God” comes first, and being a true worshipper is what follows;* “by the grace of God I am what I am” (1 Corinthians 15:10, Cf. Romans 12:3, 6, 1 Corinthians 4:7, John 3:27, Hebrews 13:20-21, Job 23:14).

[@pwx13]

Leighton are you a cessationist

[@ABC123jd]

Doubt it

[@pwx13]

@@ABC123jd are you the unitarian that has been replying to my comments

[@controlclerk]

You guys just refuse to deal with verses 64 and 65. Here they are- 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” Jesus says why some don't believe. Verse 65, "it" refers to believing. "It" must be granted. You won't touch those verses because there's no ambiguity. Jesus clearly says some don't believe because it must be granted.

[@jayrodriguez84]

The Father only grants it to those who are elected before the foundation of the world. Revelation 17:8 names written in the Book of Life are in the perfect tense, passive voice, indicative mood.

[@jcthomas3408]

No one can come unless the Father grants it...he grants it in John 12:32 so that all men are able.

[@jayrodriguez84]

@@jcthomas3408 The verse doesn't say all are able. It reads, ‭John 12:32 NKJV‬ [32] And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, 👉will draw all peoples to Myself.” 👈 Jesus says He WILL draw all peoples to Himself. Strong's: G1670 English: will draw Code: V-FAI-1S Long: Verb - Future Active Indicative - 1st Person Singular Speech: Verb Tense: Future Voice: Active Mood: Indicative Person: 1st Person Number: Singular Will draw is a future, active, indicative. So, the question is, are ALL people(as in every single person to ever live after He said this) drawn to Jesus? Yes or no?

[@jcthomas3408]

@@jayrodriguez84 yes, all are drawn, but not all come.

[@jayrodriguez84]

@@jcthomas3408 What does it mean to be drawn to Him?