The Crash at Circuit of the Americas

“The Return”
• The Return_COTA_Cayman...
Unfortunately, this video doesn't end well. Turn 19 got the best of me,
though I'm not quite sure what caused the loss of control nor would I
have changed my inputs once I lost it. Live and learn; I'm just glad to
walk away with no injuries. The car, however, isn't totaled, but far
from what it once was. The end of this project is the beginning of my
next track car. Videos of that at the track to come.

[@NoToBigBro]

The first save was epic. Should have pitted in after going off the track. Your driving was neurotic afterwards.

[@jasonjinx]

He got cocky for the camera, and tough guy syndrome went to his head.

[@jonathontalley]

stay off the curbs till you know what your doing

[@joeangell5652]

Well stated. I wouldn’t be showing that “stuff” off.

[@easternracing209]

At 5:08 the rear tires lost traction, possibly unloading as they were going over the curb or a dip in the track adjacent to the curb, and then reconnecting with the pavement. The car is 1/3 track width away from the apex at this point. At this point the corrective action should have been to IMMEDIATELY LIFT (and countersteer). I am hearing constant throttle through the rest of 5:08 and through the whole 5:09 - about 1.5 seconds - as the steering wheel is auto-rotating. Maintaining throttle in this type of situation in a drift setting is how the driver gets the car to max angle, and this is exactly what happened in the video. Now if full brakes were applied at 5:10 and the car had no ABS it most likely would have skidded sideways parallel to track edge and stopped well short of barriers. However brakes were applied at 5:11, and that extra second allowed the car to rotate into a trajectory that pointed off track, limiting effective runoff. Having ABS in the car at that point, if so equipped, only compounded the problem as front tires were able to rotate and move the car forward which - since the car was sideways - was off track. If I was in the right seat I would have been yelling "both feet in" at 5:09, and if this happened a second earlier at 5:10 the car may have survived this incident in one piece. Looking at the rest of this video: 1. You seem to be transitioning from throttle to brakes and brakes to throttle over curbs. While this can work in principle, doing so without well developed feel for the car and PRACTICED oversteer recovery abilities is asking for trouble, especially at higher speeds. 2. I imagine if there was an instructor in the car you wouldn't have done the drifting exhibition at 0:30. If I was in the car we definitely would have been coming into pits at reduced pace after you blew the braking zone as that's two consecutive overdriving incidents. When you are solo, there is no one to act as a check to clouded judgment and loss of awareness except for yourself. After being in more than one situation similar to this video I developed the guideline to critically look at myself if I have two overdriving incidents in a session with respect to what I am doing and what my goals for the session are, to prevent the third overdriving incident from doing major damage. 3. Drifting is a great way to acquire car control skills which will come in very handy in track driving, among other situations. The low risk way to acquire these skills however is at a parking lot event, at least until you are able to enter and exit drifts on demand and generally control car direction and position while sideways. 4. The difference between the successful drift demo at 0:30 and the crash at 5:08 is in the second case the car went over curb (the exit one, while already sideways) and became unrecoverable. The different surfaces in terms of height and texture is usually not something found at parking lot events, and requires understanding as well as respect when driving close to the limit. This is related to going on/off throttle/brakes over curbs as mentioned earlier. 5. You say you contersteered. Countersteering alone does not stop a drift; countersteering and reduction in speed and/or throttle does. Since you maintained throttle input there was no reduction in speed happening and the car stayed in the drift. My impression the car never actually stopped rotating, i.e., you have not caught it. I don't know if you consider letting go of the steering wheel as countersteering - it is not, countersteering means staying ahead of the car and actively applying steering input. Allowing the car to dial up steering angle on its own is not countersteering. Good luck with your driving.

[@shaoyiche8483]

"Allowing the car to dial up steering angle on its own is not countersteering." LOL agreed! This man tried to recover with one hand like he did not give two shi*s about it hahahahaha.

[@discoonelove]

Was about to write the same thing

[@JFein]

@Sho Yu Weeni "Throttle out of oversteer" does NOT mean you plant the throttle pedal to the floor... that's absolutely horrible advice. A skilled driver will apply a minimal amount of counter steer combined with *partial* throttle application in order to realign an oversteering car. Moreover, the amount of throttle that should be applied in order to save the car is almost always *less than or equal to* the initial throttle application that originally caused the car to oversteer. So a skilled driver encountering oversteer with ease back on their throttle application - or at the very least, hold it steady - while applying minimal counter steering to bring the car back in line. Putting the throttle pedal to the floor in the situation seen in this video would have accelerated the rotation of the car, causing it to spin even more quickly - meaning the driver would need to apply MORE counter steer than before to have any chance of saving it. In other words..... literally the exact opposite of what you seem to think would happen.

[@av_tbk8605]

@@JFein some people just don't understand basic physics brother

[@olivierleduc7305]

great analysis! im full on with all 5 points, specially #5, a more agressive countersteer could have save the crash. E46 steering racks are quite slow so perhaps the initial inputs got out of the reach of the countersteer forces. What puzzule me is the recommandation for a full lift off at 5:08, i think it would have unloaded the rear tire even more and increased the oversteer. is the idea to spin out of the track on the passenger side? Thanks Josh for posting, hopefully we can all learn from our mistakes..

[@Turn1PPF]

I’d be willing to bet your tires either were too worn already or were too hot and overinflated

[@Formaldehydex]

Flailing at the wheel actually kept you from spinning out the first time. That is amazing. Get thee to some autocrosses to learn basic car control under conditions that won’t dent your car.

[@carlb86]

Glad you are alright. My buddy just got a Cayman S, we did the GT3 LCAs, ducts, and some other goodies to it. Drove COTA in February with him and my STi. We are headed to MSR Houston in prep for a LeMons race in September.

[@m3pOwEr4LIFE]

Nice. Best of luck to you guys. Luckily, my Cayman R came with some decent modifications so I just a few minor additions and she'll be comparable to the m3 if not better with less weight and mid engine

[@racerxmedia2282]

Josh I drove Cota on labor day weekend right after you were there in my F430C. You had a pretty thrilling recovery right in the beginning and knew you were in the zone but in that case and the one which spun out you drove far over the edging, at least more than I can with my limited ride height. I took a wide ride on 19 like you did and had the same experience but was able to recover, my setup was too stiff and I believe the loss of grip from the RR tire caused the tail to swing, maybe likewise with yours?

[@dillihag]

This happened yesterday to someone, exact same thing. Turn 19 is tough!

[@zachg9065]

Damn man that first save was epic

[@Daytonaman675]

Watched a viper eat it there too, but this one was much more preventable.

[@gpcirillo]

I don't agree with some of the negative comments. You looked safe and aware. You should focus on sensing oversteer faster and cranking countersteering fast and hard. The goal is not to get the car straight, but to stop the rotation. An abrupt stab of countersteer can save your nuts, even if it means going way off the outside of the turn. And the instant you realize the countersteer isn't enough, you have to lock 'em up (although I don't know if that works in a modern street car). I drive a sports racer and our steering ratio is much quicker, so doing it in a street car is always going to be harder.

[@pzkpfw2310]

That first save was amazing

[@6thgenevozach481]

Sorry for the unfortunate event. I was wondering what even this was? I've been wanting to go race my evo or c5 at Cota

[@rol2680]

What differential gear ratio do you have its insanely aggressive. Or is that normal for a beemer, im coming from a c6 grandsport

[@bogdan135]

Wow, that's a very dangerous corner, saw a bunch of F1 cars crashing there in qualifying

[@jotha28]

I've been watching all of your onboard videos and following your journal on M3forums. Sad to see this but glad you are okay. It'll be nice to see the Cayman evolve the same way the M3 did. Enjoy it in good health.

[@m3pOwEr4LIFE]

Thanks man! I'm excited to see where the Cayman platform goes

[@skierman64]

No one seemed to key in on the main cause of the spin. T19 starts as a positive chamber turn before the apex but ends as a zero or off camber turn, so the grip you have going in disappears midway through the turn, combine that with the track falling away slightly and it makes for a tricky exit from Apex to the track out point. It looks like the driver was giving the correct amount of maintenance or slight acceleration power to keep the back end stuck but with the reduced grip the car was going too fast for the radius of turn needed. The driver should have opened up the wheel at the apex and accepted tracking out on or near the exit curbing. He was also slow to correct and the correction was too small to catch the rotation. Clutching in, early in the slide would have also stopped the rotation.

[@BradleyG01]

Can someone explain what exactly he’s doing here? Like does cota do events where they let people drive on the track? Are there certain requirements for doing so? I’m assuming this guy is pretty experienced and that’s why he was allowed on.

[@MisledVision]

Just a track day. Most if not all tracks have them or some sort of public events in order to bring in extra money. Just like drag strips have test n tune nights

[@JB91710]

Here's a tip. You are out there having fun so stay off the curbs that will only make you slower and with less control.

[@breakmywalletmotorsport]

I think one of your tires were shot/corded or you had some suspension issue. Looking and listening closer...you start losing the back end as soon as you turned in.

[@michaelshepherd7572]

The VW Golf shift knob is a nice touch.

[@wackyasspaki]

It's a BMW motorsport knob actually. Looks just like the VW knob though so it often gets mistaken

[@RB211TriStar]

Lot of people in here thinking they know that they're talking about. It's simple... you turned in too early, tried to grab more kerb than you should have to salvage the exit, and the kerb upset the rear of the car to the point it lost traction. Then physics took over. Hot tires didn't help. You've got some good things going on in there... solid vision & quick hands (most of the time). Don't let it discourage you. All the good drivers have been there!

[@dy3812]

Hey Josh, glad to see that you are ok. sorry to see this, having been there before it always pains me to rewatch vids in the moments before a crash. Do you think there could have been anything you could have done to save the car? You dont have to answer, my last crash I spent many hours thinking of what I could have done different, live and learn though.

[@m3pOwEr4LIFE]

Douglas Yau hey sorry for the late reply. Looking back at the video and data, there's nothing I would have changed about T19, because by then, it was too late. My inputs were spot on in my opinion. My big save earlier in the session should have been a major red flag that either the car, tires, and/or driver were done for the weekend and that I needed to dial it back down to 5/10ths or just finish the session. Live and learn.

[@alexanderwademd]

@@m3pOwEr4LIFE JoshM, I don't expect (or need) a reply but I want to commend you for posting this video. As a surgeon, I have been blessed to have had others report the things they did that didn't work out so well. Someone taking a race car around the track and showing us a great line with fancy narrating isn't nearly as useful as seeing a guy like me try to get his project car around this thing in one piece. It is courageous to post this video and risk the negative feedback from others, and I commend you for that. I have an unexplainable urge to talk about wrecking my motorcycle or the time I slid into a ditch in my car because I missed a turn, but really, I just wanted to say , thanks for posting this.

[@traind]

Nice save early in the video. It looked like it was the curb that created the slide at the end? Sorry about the car.... I have the same model and the rear will move quite readily. My dampers probably need replacing--- I think it oversteers more than it used to.

[@przemyslawkwiecien1752]

nice save?! this was one of the worst and at the same time the most lucky save Iv ever seen. From 0:35 it was pretty obvious the guy would crash, there was just a question when. Luckily he didn't pick up anyone along his way

[@DM-qp7do]

Looks like the suspension unloaded over the rumble strips while he was on the throttle. Mabey im wrong, idk. But he definitely isn't afraid to get those revs up.

[@cbrooks2767]

You already have lots of feedback but thought I'd add my 2 cents. First, it looks like you're cutting the apexes so aggressively that the car is jumping up because of the berms and causing reduced traction. Second, when this happens and you lift off the throttle, the car weight shifts to the front somewhat, causing more front grip and less rear grip. My E46 loves it when i keep at least partial throttle near the apex to keep the car settled. Since I started doing that I've had zero spins. I run a square setup though so if you have something different then my advice may not work for you. Get an experienced BMW instructor to analyze what you and the car is doing. One more thing; you seem to be losing a lot of time shuffling the steering wheel causing a big lag in getting enough countersteer input.

[@breakmywalletmotorsport]

Throttle was consistent through the turn, driver took out steering input and then added some more as he went over the curbing. Put too much yaw into the tires and they gave up. The answer is to unwind the wheel and turn it back right to keep the front end in front of the back end on exit. Or give up and go straight off track right. COTA is one of the few tracks where you pay a steep price for that mistake. I think the driver was fine throughout the video. Sometimes shit happens. Glad he was OK.

[@TheBlackHandElite]

What mods have you done to your (E46?) M3?

[@m3pOwEr4LIFE]

TheBlackHandElite check out ///M_Achilles on M3Forum.net for mod list

[@TheBlackHandElite]

Will do, thanks man!

[@raudelhernandez4320]

Crap happens to anyone, even pros; a bit too hot going into the corner in my opinion, that's all.

[@MrRGBTV]

No instructor in the car? There were lots of issues well before the crash that should have been a warning sign of what was to come. Not sure if it was red mist, bald tires, old brakes, but the mistakes piled up quickly after that initial tank slapper. Listen to your gut and come in next time. Hopefully you and the car got through this one OK.

[@raw4u22]

I also recommend you take a few driver training courses. (I'm a former SCCA Pro Driver & Instructor)

[@BradleyG01]

I didn’t know these were a thing. Are they expensive? What are the requirements?

[@raw4u22]

​@@BradleyG01 Currently, the only two that I'm aware of here in Austin are Driveway Austin and Skip Barber Race school. I HIGHLY recommend you take a course. You will benefit from it substantially.

[@martinmoffitt4702]

@@raw4u22 I agree! can only help...not to be a back seat driver or dog you but I don't see anything very fluid with your driving. Novice myself.good luck and be safe!

[@Aheitchoo]

Tricky to sete where the error was. I had to watch it 6 times to convince myself I woud have been able to save it. Maybe %10 more countersteer about halfway through the slide? %10 earlier turn in and apex, and 10% stiffer front bar?

[@Aheitchoo]

By the way, thanks for sharing. Im doing my best to learn for the future, and need help from yall.

[@MRFUCKOFF202]

There's no big error, he just let the angle get a bit too big and ran out of steering lock. So yeah, a tiny bit more countersteer at any point in the drift or lifting off the throttle a bit more at any point in the drift.

[@kristupaschirille7759]

When you started to slide and you mustn't brake or you will rotate more (rears ar spinning/sliding=no grip,while wront has grip to turn car around). You can however hit brakes and locked up all the wheels before full steering lock and while still moving down the straight (in your case a second or two earlier) (locking all the wheels makes a car to slide straight in the direction you were moving before). To be honest you did your best and you can allways learn. It is easy to look upon and see the mistakes or what could have been done, but on track it is only instincts in that moment.

[@antdx316]

This is why simulation matters a lot. To drill what to do in situations like these and not accidentally do what not to do.

[@matthewschiebout9081]

without abs and staying on the brakes hard during the slide would have avoided hitting the wall.

[@dancass1759]

Don't feel bad about turn 19. If you go to the attached video, you'll certainly recognize the track. Like you, if you go to the end at 4:48, you'll see a similar (but cheaper) end result. Porsche no longer offers the Cup Car experience. If you have a chance I HIGHLY recommend it. The difference between a standard GT3 and a GT3 Cup Car is like junior high football vs Division 1 football. The car delivers an amazing amount of confidence. kzbin.info/www/bejne/maWah6tqnKmgrdk

[@MrScottpeterson2112]

should have called it a day after going off behind the white 911

[@raw4u22]

I meant to add that you're shifting too soon, lifting off the accelerator far too much, and your line is incorrect. As I mentioned before, take a driving course, I think you will enjoy track time better.

[@kennethjeffriesjr2334]

That's those rumble strips there so steep you touch the throttle or steer on them you will crash .

[@gunndavidkim6327]

I nearly lost in there that corner as well. it's a bit strange the way you spun. it's easy to lose the back when you're lifting, but you had the throttle on subtle to keep it balanced. was there a slick patch at T19?

[@m3pOwEr4LIFE]

Not so much a slick patch but the apex was elevated enough to upset the balance and induce oversteer, which isn't a surprise at t19. My best guess was the tires were overheated as evident from the first big slide/save and once adhesion was gone... there was no chance. I counter steered accordingly and didn't lift; wouldn't change a thing

[@TaylorMonnig]

You didn't counter steer far enough, if so you wouldnt have spun.

[@MrSpiderman1321]

if your tyres overheat under that kind of sliding theres literally no level of counter steering that can save it, tyres turn into ice above 100 degrees. the driver needed to counter steer alot earlier

[@maxwelllisovsky4193]

Zero throttle to wheel coordination

[@miguelernandes3889]

He's all over the red and cubs like it's becicarry at 70mph like what a careless driver

[@tsunamiq]

This is why they should put synchros on the reverse gear. Could have easily just reversed out of that slide. Just my two cents

[@Commander-McBragg]

Lifted a little too much right at the apex when reacting to the compression on the curb. Also, you are addicted to high rpm. While you are figuring things out, keep the car in the torque curve so the acceleration is predictable and gives you more of a buffer if the car gets sideways. The reason the car snapped sideways on you so fast was that when you lifted, you engine braked, made the front end heavy and the rear light and around you went. You are way too busy keeping that thing in the redline and making the learning process difficult on yourself. I can feel your frustration as you are driving. Everything else looks really good though. You definitely get it and the best get bitten by it from time to time. Don’t give up!

[@carsgunsandguitars]

The infamous E46 M3 understeer... sorry about the car :(

[@matthewschiebout9081]

my instructor spun his E46 while giving me a demonstration lap, they can be very tail happy under throttle.

[@skierman64]

That would be oversteer in this case.

[@naten555]

Dude. you look lost out there.

[@shaoyiche8483]

Sorry for commenting three years after the post. Although I am not a pro, I can actually tell what caused the loss of control. I am an HPDE instructor and an SCCA racer. First, Car set up. Some cars almost never push (GT3s for example) while some other cars push like crazy (GT350s for example). It definitely has something to do with your car set up. I noticed your car is more on the tail-happy side. Which makes car control skill even more vital for you in safe driving. Your shocks are not handling the curbs well enough and you consistently hitting the curbs aggressively almost always upset the balance of the car. This caused the first oversteer that you saved. Second, Your overall driving habit. I recommend you to seek for professional instructions. I recommend 'trackrekord'. Google them. They are decent. You have some not ideal driving habits usually common among HPDE drivers without professional instructions. In general, you are not smooth enough and your vision is not good enough. LOOK AHEAD! Watch the video and see where you were looking at before you crashed. (at 1:00, you hit both gas and brake pedals at the same time. Close your knees when braking if your pedals are really close to each other.) Third, case by case analysis. Three phases. Turn in: your turn in was OK but you were way TOO EAGER on the gas. You are not a miata. You dont need such early throttle application. You were on 50% gas on the curb, which caused your initial oversteer. Recall the string theory. After the oversteer starts: We seldom get the opportunity to practice how to recover a big slide. Put what caused the slide aside. In your case, Initial countersteering input was not enough and not fast enough. Contrary to popular belif, in racing scenarios, if your hands are fast enough in recovery, you do not need throttle to set the rear. Certainly don't lift, but you were ADDING a LOT of throttle that you way passed the midpoint. Man, it looks like that you're trying to drift. You also gave up too SOON at the last moment when you could've got it. You gave up and both feet in. I hope in the past three years you had a lot of fun. If you are still trying to improve, seek for professional instructions. I am doing the Skip-barber two day advanced racing school at COTA later this month. Hope this comment helps whoever watched the video.

[@driftergonewild]

Gooood save !!!! at the begging

[@Bark3rd]

Hopefully your next track car will be a Spec Miata.

[@a914freak]

Stay off the curbs your not driving a race car and your not in a race. I thought you learned your lesson when the back end got loose on you the first time after you cut the apex on an earlier turn, and you came around the second lap and stayed off of it only cut across another. You have to be extra careful when cutting across curbing on an off camber turn.

[@badgumby9544]

We need more curb.

[@JohnMatthew1]

Look at the exit, don't worry about hitting the apex yet, your too busy with the hands. Let the car bog down, can't think of a time for 2nd gear at COTA.

[@oliverenterprises380]

You should hit all inside curbs hard enough to pull all 4 tires off the ground, or your just not trying hard enough. Keeping all 4 tires in smoother constant contact with the racing surface is not nearly as fast as slamming the curbs as hard as possible and either upsetting the crap out of your car, or going airborne. Once you get the hang of slamming the curbs even more than you did, then you should become a driving instructor.

[@luciengutierrez431]

Are you trolling him or being serious lol?

[@2000Z28M6]

I'm not a pro but that thats not a 4th gear turn. IMO, should have down shifted to 3rd and let the car settle before getting back on the gas. Power over in 4th on a transition like that will net the same results every time. Unless you got some insane/ ungodly down force.

[@m3pOwEr4LIFE]

2000Z28M6 4.10 gearing, downshifting is a waste of time

[@2000Z28M6]

i hear ya.... but anywho glad you werent hurt. Live & learn I guess.

[@m3pOwEr4LIFE]

2000Z28M6 thanks

[@HexlGaming]

I was 100% sure your brakes are gone, till you just didn't take the pit..

[@INOOOYASHA]

during the first lap in this video, the speed at the apex was 65 and it's a very smooth, controlled and balanced turn in and out the corner. during the second lap, the speed at the apex was 73 and to me it looked like the rear had already lost a bit of traction before hitting the apex, can't rule out the possibility that the slight oversteer changed the entry line a little bit but enough to contribute to the harder hit to the curb which in turn distracted the driver from an instant correction that could possibly save it, everything just happened so fast and a slight hesitation caused by distraction made everything different. 65 was a safe speed to attack that corner but 73 may be a little bit over the limit (maybe 70 is the limit with brake and tire condition at that moment). I don't think the driver did anything wrong by pushing the limit but just got a bit unlucky.

[@jenerick9509]

Ah yes when someone has neither skill nor money

[@MRFUCKOFF202]

wtf was 1:00?

[@m3pOwEr4LIFE]

MRFUCKOFF202 brakes were overheated

[@MRFUCKOFF202]

So why accelerate to make it worse?

[@shaoyiche8483]

Im guessing that he set up the gas pedal close to the brake pedals and did not close his knees. So he hit the gas pedal as well when he hit the brakes. A common problem for rookies drivers in formula 2000 cars.

[@shaoyiche8483]

@@m3pOwEr4LIFE no your brakes were not overheated. you hit the gas pedal together when you brake.

[@a914freak]

Turn 19 is a late apex, you shouldn't be on the curbing there. Gotta give it up.

[@markbroadheaf1593]

Overheated and therefore over inflated rear tyres most likely. The first near spin was your warning.

[@reactor4]

curbing..

[@WyFoster]

I would have stopped after the first slide. Car definitely shouldn't be that unstable.

[@AutomaticProductions]

🤣🤣🤣

[@psreynol]

Hold on to the wheel properly and don't rely on wheel caster as your sole method of correction- specially when it seems you have very little. What a shame. To me it looked easily caught but vids rarely tell the whole story. Sucks man, but that is the game I suppose...

[@tractorback76]

Oof

[@davidr1333]

This is a classic mistake power on over steer, often made by novice drivers.You should keep traction control on, because you are not ready to react quickly and correctly when your car loses control.The car got upset by driving over the curb too aggressively, and instead of waiting for the car to settle you went full throttle while still turning the wheel.Honestly, even TC on wouldn't have saved you with that kind of driving.

[@m3pOwEr4LIFE]

David R the troll is strong with you

[@jenetic4]

David you are correct. There were so many mistakes and poor driving habits throughout. To make so many big mistakes in just a few laps...it was an accident waiting to happen. As an instructor, I would have slowed him down from the very beginning until he could take those turns with consistently smooth steering inputs.

[@luciengutierrez431]

Saw it coming too.

[@MH-bj8zb]

Slow down to go faster. You need an instructor

[@jimmiejohnson4856]

lol haha

[@Boostjunkieful]

Lol

[@arnold5536]

Going over the curbs too much, they upset the balance of the car they are there for a reason to prevent corner cutting

[@BillViverette]

Too much throttle, too soon, over that inside turn.

[@tdwtx177]

LOL. Yet another rich guy at COTA with no idea how to handle his expensive sportscar. What a menace.

[@robertkorn]

Please get some instruciton before you hurt someone else out there.