The dark side of crowdfunding board games.

[@MrGIBRAY]

Popping in to clarify that CC did not ban me from a channel. I have learned that they did respond to me after I first reached out to Taylor, but, they also then deleted their CC sub-channel within a larger discord server for other unrelated reasons - which is why it was then not available for me to see. Due to that - I had no idea they preferred to not be reached out too on weekends. I was definitely intentionally muted though after our second brief exchange and belittled over a simple inquiry. I do believe they asked for our patience and sympathy as they struggled with forest fires, and I was definitely casting good vibes their way during that disaster, as I too used to live in British Columbia so it hits home. We then experience water damage from flash flooding and hurricane lee and they cannot gracefully entertain a simple refund request to make our lives easier? In the end the refund truly wasn’t necessary, it just would have been kind under the circumstances, but didn’t even give me the time to explain that. Doesn’t leave one feeling very good I’ll say that.

[@TheKingofAverage]

Thank you for the update!

[@tyrroo]

"I had no idea they preferred to not be reached out too on weekends." This is mind-boggling to me: why the eff can't they just reply to you on Monday? Why did that jerk have to throw a tantrum over it, instead of just ignoring your comment until business hours? The whole world is on the internet. Not everyone works Mon-Fri 9:00 am to 5:00 pm... and even those that do, live in different time zones from others!

[@meledward231]

The asked for patience in providing information during forest fires for judgment. Meanwhile on twitter they were advertising and shipping product… I dont trust them a bit.

[@fitzgigler]

Creature caster's interaction was pretty disgusting to me. If somebody paid me to produce a product, I cannot imagine speaking to someone this way.

[@TheKingofAverage]

Especially while knowing fully well you had no idea how you'd ever get them the product they are asking for and paid you money for.

[@tyrroo]

@@TheKingofAverage " Especially while knowing fully well you weren't going to bother ever getting them the product they are asking for and paid you money for, you're just going to bluff and fib and flat-out lie for as long as possible." FIFY

[@Sthunderrocker]

Not a ponzi, but I think it's time to start looking at the delays with 7th Citadel. Funded 3yrs, 1.5yrs overdue. Every update delays a few more months. I distinctly remember them holding off the campaign for game development but apparently that was still 3 yrs too early. They reiterate they will not ask for more cash, but I feel like they aren't really focused on delivering.

[@dankone1289]

That game still hasn't been finished? Dang I forgot all about that one!

[@nukecorruption6]

Would appreciate a video on this subject

[@scottstefanik6324]

Yeah. I fell into this group. I backed it. I’m pretty confident it will be delivered. I’m just not certain I’ll be able to read the instructions without reading glasses by the time it gets here. lol

[@reasonlost]

I forgot I backed it until I read this comment.

[@ancalagonm5859]

I keep my faith in them. If ppl had not screwed them over with selling the replacementcards first Time around they would have easier to deliver This one. Imho

[@Rodinov_Claw]

You should have added Grimlord Games and Blacklist Games as part of your case studies.

[@Dannezou]

Should look at Adventures in Neverland by Black Box Adventures - also from 2020 and some updates that definitely don’t add up. Keep up the awesome work

[@zerosdeath]

We will never see that game. I feel it was a scam to pay for their lifestyle.

[@bartduinslaeger7289]

Luckely i stopped my gf from backing this since allot was going towards hell the last saga back then since we backed all in + 2 hnefatafl boards so we would have 3 (including the 1 from scottish museum) and would be able to play against our 3 kids at one time... our best hope atm is that awaken realms buys the ip so we get a decent game eventually. We started just backing the "sure" companys like awaken realms and cmon alltough both could survive without crowdfunding.

[@ScytheNoire]

Companies need to have policies about customer interactions, no matter how high of a position in the company. Creature Caster Taylor must have went to the Elon Musk School of Customer Service.

[@ScytheNoire]

Toyzzo campaign is sketchy as hell, and the product is not even designed properly or built properly.

[@NerdAndProudOfIt]

thanks for covering judgement! i mentioned it in a few of my comments, so i am happy you address it, KOA. i’m down 600 bucks and all i have received is the base game and a playmat. first bad experience i had on KS. i would be willing to take resin product for the balance i still have open, but i won’t give them more money.

[@meledward231]

I agree, not another penny.

[@douglasmaxon1391]

Thank you for all the time you put in these videos. Seems everyday we are seeing more and more Bad KS companies come to light.

[@TheKingofAverage]

You are very welcome! Some of these companies were able to hide their failure for this long (as shown here in this video actually) and some are dragging it on (Mythic) but I hope soon we'll be past this sore spot and back to mostly interacting with good and more well run companies.

[@johchadow]

Elf Creek Games needs a deep dive on the Atlantis Rising Monstrosities Kickstarter. It's such a sh!tshow.

[@UKDagnar]

Definitely

[@GameBrigade]

Luckily I got my pledge

[@johchadow]

​@@GameBrigade, you in the US, and did you only back the expansion or do the all in? Did they hit you up for more money (they did to me, but then didn't respond when I responded to them about it). I backed the all in as I don't have the core game yet.

[@Swedeskanfly]

I have invested in that sh!tshow as well. Total radio silence. Amazing really.

[@GameBrigade]

@@johchadow I did the all in and they didn't ask for anything. It arrived two or three months ago

[@CdnBulldog1]

For spits and grins, you should take a look at the Sweet Mess story. ALL of the drama and excitement you describe here, followed by an Angel Investor picking up the IP and the game going to production - 8 years later - with a commitment to support the original investors AT NO ADDITIONAL COST. Not just that, but the opportunity was presented to back out and instead apply your money (which I had considered lost - Kickstarter is speculative at best) to be applied to a different game. Same spit, different day, but with a happy ending (in theory - game's in production right now.)

[@andykaufman7620]

They are saying they will give you the pdf but if you want it 'print on demand' you pay for the print, OR you can print FOR FREE yourself, but it won't be made into a 'book' as I assumed it is bound and it is in full color, so for someone who wants a printed copy in full color POD is a good solution, but me, I would just print it and not pay anything, its free and yes I can get color copies. Now, if I want it printed in high quality thicker cover or something, that will cost a little bit, but I'm not going full POD am I, as there are other solutions.

[@andrewjacksonbr]

I don’t understand how these companies can’t get it right. Design / Advertise / Kickstart / Produce / Deliver = not easy, but simple.

[@familymeeple]

Hey hey! Thank you, as always, for your diligence and keeping people abreast in stuff that's happening. We all need to be wary... We shouldn't but it is what it is. ❤

[@TheKingofAverage]

Just happy to be able to highlight things a bit for yall and I hope it helps :)

[@kumanight]

Taylor talking to an investor of his project like that is disgusting. He has no place running a business.

[@TheKingofAverage]

Right? Imagine being in upper management and knowing you won't be able to give the customer the thing they paid for (and are asking for a refund for) and your only response while you enjoy your weekend is to ban and mute them. Terrible attitude.

[@Swedeskanfly]

Oh, by the way, the most insane campaign (not board games) is the Cinera Edge campaign. Lord, that is a serious s*it show. That would almost be a full documentary in itself. I personally was new to crowdfunding and went in. That is a mistake I will never repeat again, that's for sure :)

[@nonamenoname1133]

Disappointed in CC for the Taylor thing. Ya'll can leave people on read until Monday! Also, on a lighter note, some of those Toyzzo people could totally totally totally be 30+, some of us look 30 from 15 to 50, some of us look 15 from 20 to 40.

[@Mr424242424242424242]

I've personally worked with creature caster, and most all of their people are great to talk with, and will happily work with you, one of the people who was at the show was exceedingly grumpy(and everyone else was poking fun at them for it). I took it as him being hung over, as the show generally involves a lot of drinking, and it was also set up day for the vendors, so everyone was stressed as hell and working their asses off. Granted, they might have been nice to me because I was working my ass off to get things for their painting competition ready, or maybe one of the vendor relations staff told them to play nice. But yeah, I suspect CC has at least one permagrumpy asshole, even if the rest of their staff is pretty nice to work with.

[@tobyr21]

I speak for almost everyone: we greatly appreciate it when you do this kind of in-depth research. nobody else does it and it is always instructive and fascinating. Thanks. -Toby

[@Herzegor]

I would love you to do a dead dive into a game called Onimaru this one funded in Jan 2019 and we are still waiting for it. Been in so called production since December 2019

[@christianzemaitis6848]

This is an amazing video. Thank god someone is speaking up.

[@ericlemay1051]

I was just playing board games with a bunch of friends yesterday and I mentioned the Darkest Dungeon BS. Doing some quick math I realized that after this second ransom amount for DD, I'll have paid effectively twice the amount for DD than I'll have paid to get all 5 Cycles of ATO. That, to me, is an absolute travesty. The fact that companies like mythic and the other ones you show here are still pretending like they're blameless and can't even be bothered to apologize for their rampant mismanagement is incredible.

[@Sthunderrocker]

I'm so thankful I passed on that game, but sadly I actually wanted it and still do. Maybe when everything's said and done I'll be able to land a copy sometime.

[@ericlemay1051]

@@Sthunderrocker To be fair, the game is overall kind of nice, there are some issues with it, the rulebook is clunky, character growth is meaningful but kind of thin to some extent, and there are some small balancing issues, but it kind of nails the vibe of the video game. That being said, for the price for the core game, ironically enough, too many bones is actually cheaper, you're guaranteed to actually get your game, and looks really nice, and ticks a lot of the same boxes for me, just better implemented and incorporated with its expansions. The only reason at this point why I might recommend DD the board game would be if you're in love with the brand, or you're a miniature painter.

[@TheKingofAverage]

Yeah I love Darkest Dungeon, but the price is not a great deal anymore 😕

[@roninjotatan]

i say this every time, if your project is late you have every right to request a refund then perform a chargeback. Non delivery for preorder items has a very long timeframe. don't let these amature creators bully you, take your money back and forget about them.

[@MarsGamingGroup]

Thanks for having our backs KOA. We got yours too! * Manly fist bump *

[@TheKingofAverage]

It's very much my pleasure - happy to help!

[@RookShell]

It should be noted regarding holding Creature Caster to their word - They've never once posted an update on the promised timeline. They've been late on every one since the completion of the Kickstarter. In fact, it usually takes a critical mass of people upset in the Judgement discord to overwhelm the hugbox that thinks they've done no wrong before Peter will finally respond.

[@meledward231]

Exactly this

[@RookShell]

This is also not the first time Taylor has been a prick to someone about this project - his response to someone asking about Saiyin missing her nose in the sculpt was to tell him he should have coughed up the dough for the resin and then saying "and now I'm off for the weekend". He was legitimately removed from the server for several months before slinking back into advertise stuff that wasn't Judgement.

[@meledward231]

Another good point

[@blutaxt777]

@@RookShell Yep, it was me who talked about the missing nose. Taylor should not work or openly tell anyone that he works for CC, cause this guy is not a good representative for them. Not that it makes the situation any better at all, but they will stop PVC from now for at least 6 months. Anyways CC and Mythic made me rethink crowdfunding in general.

[@deano2099]

Here's the problem with the "ponzi schemes" on Kickstarter. If we think they're going to work, we embrace them. I think many of the most beloved Kickstarter companies out there right now are running as you describe: launching new campaigns to sustain the company while still fulfilling previous ones. Do I expect Into The Unknown to fulfil the old ATO, Kingdoms Forlorn, and the new ATO. Absolutely. Do I expect Awaken Realms to fulfil the three or four projects they currently have outstanding. Totally. But do I think that if either of these companies was told tomorrow that "sorry, you're done, no new campaigns or pledge manager income" that they'd still be able to fulfil all their outstanding projects? No chance. But we let them (and I've backed the new Awaken Realms campaign myself!) because we know they're popular and the next campaign *will* fund. And yeah, unlike say Mythic, they're cool people aren't they? They chat with us, share our views and such. But they're not publishing their accounts either.

[@CheddahSlammer]

I don't know if you can look into it, but I backed a game on kickstarter called Hard West by Silver Lynx Games and still haven't gotten it. It funded back in 2019 and was their only kickstarter. Their updates for Hard West show up with large gaps, Although they constantly apologize for delay and show components that look legit in each one. In 2021 they stated everything on their end is done, and now its up to the manufacturer and they claim that because the manufacturer has other projects to make that their project is also delayed. Then in March 2023 update, they state their still updating the rule book and play testing the game, which would suggest that everything on their end isn't done lol. Last update was September 2023, and states we will get the game, with end of production being in November 2023. However for me it just seems like the company is like you say spinning plates, because their updates are very sporadic and are filled with inconsistencies. I found out they made another game in 2021 under Silver Lynx Games but is another account by another person, which is very fishy to me. Why make 2 different accounts to sell a different game.

[@RobCoFPS]

Hey, I'm the moderator of the /r/Carbon2185 subreddit who had to deal with the fallout of their manipulation tactics. Even though it was tough to see these things again (though you only scratched the surface tbh) I'm glad you are raising awareness for this. Thank you for the video!

[@VladislavKluska]

Thank you for this video! Funny enough, I checked how Glorantha from Petersen Games is going (wanted to late pledge when it'll make sense, love the game), but suddenly, all new post about progress is for backers only. Why though? So it's full of bad news or what? Why can't I see it? I'm right now really glad that I didn't make the late pledge. Smells fishy

[@Dragonnox]

Maybe do a video about Stone Sword Games, after they were quite rude to you previously and then went on to fail in pretty much every way during the campaign. Now they are starting to deliver a very late game with missing stretch goals (they 'forgot' to tell us, for example, that they won't have linen-finish cards), and their attitude throughout the campaign has sucked. Just check the BGG forums for Senjutsu Battle for Japan, and the comments on the Kickstarter, there are some good summaries there. Would be good before they launch their new campaign for Daimyo soon, so people can be warned.

[@Toqtamish129]

Broken anvil

[@raw.paints8276]

I could smell something rotten from a mile away when they charged their Patreon backers for a month in exchange for nothing and then announced they "curated hobby experience" or whatever the heck they call it

[@foyoGames]

Sorcery Contested Realm has ignored 4 messages from me over the last 4 months or so saying that I haven't received my pledge ...that everyone has recieved already. I have 4 messages through kickstarter unresponded to and I spent $200 I beleieve ...gunna make a video on it soon

[@gramitoncleric7]

I backed J:EC as one of the first KS campaign I've ever. I backed the all pledge and I wasn't sure if the thing happening with the company were normal or not. It all felt kind of sketchy to be honest. I did eventually get the first resin wave of my pledge a few months ago but I'm still waiting for wave two but I won't hold my breathe. I just want to thank you for all the hard work you've done looking into the J:EC KS and all the other ones you've looked into. I'm glad you are out there keeping people honest. Thanks again.

[@flintsteel]

Ghost Star is a KS card game that I've been scammed for, along with 1,330 other backers.

[@Crossbonesmb]

there's 3 that i backed that now i'm not sure or totally sure i will never get. 1- 6 siege done i did not pay i will probably never get a refund. 2- Atlantis rising. we ain't got no news for over a month now so i'm happy i already had the game just losing on the expansion on this one. and third and i'm wonderind why nobody talked about it but portal and Robinson Crusoe. A lot of questions are being asked but we're getting ingnored and disrespected. you should have a look at that one as well. i still have a dozen kickstarter active right now. but i ain't backing anything else anymore because of this i'll get the game when they come to local stores or not at all for certain company because they don't deserve to get my money anymore. I just hope that the 9 others that are still either not late or late but have good communication delivers. And then i'll but for now no more ks or gf or bk

[@surfs2good]

Hi KoA. Thanks so much for bringing this to light. So many of us dont have a voice and there is no way to make others aware to stay away from these creators or types of projects. As you said, once Kickstarter gets their cut they couldn't care less if the creators take off with the money or never deliver. The only way we can make sure creators like the ones in your video don't continue to fleece people is by going public and sharing this information so people stay away. I've learned from watching many of your videos to not just look at what "company" is making the project, but to look at who runs the company and its employees. Unfortunately, I learned the hard way that there is no justice for bad creators that cut and run. Super Dungeon Explore Legends. 1.3 million dollars Funded in November 2015. Last official update June 2021. A complete train wreck of a Kickstarter. They admitted that they used up all of the funds (mismanaged this and other projects) and only after they sell lots of their special edition Master Class minis will they start production of their outstanding Kickstarters. So many people got burned by them (myself included for $200.00). No contact or updates in any way or form from them.

[@antonichristel6430]

Adventure in Neverland is also from 2020, still not deliverd and no shilling in sight. The money is spend for a honeymoon and a lavish party. They are lying with every update.

[@Bloodfencer1990]

I mentioned this in a comment on your last video, but Epic Seven Arise by Farside Games has been a pretty scummy experience all around.

[@zerosdeath]

Why, I thought they delivered everything?

[@kumanight]

​​@@zerosdeathThey didn't deliver some stretch goals and didn't tell backers until AFTER we got our stuff

[@Bloodfencer1990]

@@zerosdeath All of the EU and most of Asia are still waiting on their pledges. US have mostly received their stuff, but a lot of packages went missing or got sent to the wrong address. They have also not included like 90% of the promised stretch goals. Meanwhile the game is available for retail pretty much everywhere at a cheaper price than the KS pledges.

[@randymanmachosavage]

Can you take a look at Sorcerer Endbringer?

[@TheRealDarkSpoon]

Epic Seven Arise - Farside Games

[@RealGyouza]

As someone on Siege I want to be optimistic but we had to cause a stir on Discord to get the update about production when a deadline was passing without word. At this stage I am leaning towards nothing is real until it is in my hands. I am not in the industry but it seems with production is supposed to end in two months and they apparently aren't arranging shipping yet. But from other campaigns we are fairly close to when this is at least arranged. They also have yet to confirm paper printing has started from what I have seen which is the possible second deadline missing. The problems with crowdfunding I think are both on the companies and also the backers. I see so many people defending the bad practices or even defending the deceptive "it funds better" behavior. Why would companies stop if the customers love it and insist on it? Is it just KS's fault that super hyped "funded in 20ms!!!!" Fund better? Yeah they could not push those as much but also backers tend to look and back those projects. We should insist if they want it to not be preorders but investing in projects that we get real transparency. They have blurred the customer lines.

[@darrenwoodman6656]

Fair dinkum, first disappointment, HEL. Now Devil Pig Games has screwed me. Unbelievable, but thankfully, due to your diligence, I have avoided the Toyzzo table. Thank you. I save up for these expensive games and then get ripped off. I am really getting disillusioned with crowdfunding now for sure. So sad Especially when you have tabs after your name like pledge master etc.

[@darrenwoodman6656]

And yes, I withdrew my pledge for the table.

[@HerVoiceRemains]

This is why I’m off KS for 1st run games. If it’s rad like Oathsworn or Wonderland’s War, they will do a reprint or retail. I hope, but don’t expect DoM to deliver. And that they launched and canceled Celestial today, tells me everything I need to know about them.

[@HerVoiceRemains]

Btw, Jamie Jolly from Shadowborne games should hire himself out as a “Kickstarter Integrity Consultant” People need to watch and learn on how to do a Platinum KS campaign and run a business.

[@stuartwalker9597]

I instantly thought on mythic that is a big ponzi scheme but you do defend them far too much

[@lultharion]

I think you should be able to check on companies house to see if that company is legit, this is so sad for backers, I think crowdfunding sites should be regulated so that they can hold companies responsible for their heinous actions, thanks for the info as always KoA

[@TheKingofAverage]

You are very welcome. Sorry it's not better news in this one!

[@afterworkboardgameclub3423]

I know Dimension Games just released Celestia when DoM had just or is getting a 4 year anniversary now w/o delivery... Wonder whats your thought on that? The pricing is really HIGH like we need this much to pay for our previous KS High...

[@kumanight]

Atlantis Rising Monstrosities - I'm convinced I'm never getting my expansion

[@Crossbonesmb]

Yeah i do agree that is one of the worst ks i did exept for 6 siege. this is getting bad.

[@JosephineMirabella]

I funded this project this morning, after going through the comments i saw a link to this video. I have since removed my backing. Thank you so very much for the heads up!

[@JosephineMirabella]

FYI, the project i unfunded was the Toyzzo Game table

[@TheKingofAverage]

I'm really glad I could help you out. I'd hate to hear from you a year from now commenting that you wish you had seen the video. If it does deliver great then surely it'll be available again. Better to get it then if and when that happens I think.

[@drwrly8060]

Appreciate the hard work and time that you put into this type of reporting.

[@stevejones6910]

When will these "companies" / individuals realize that to make sound buisenes decisions all they need to do is... 1. have a meeting about the decision (or if solo have some deep thought) 2. Think of what KOA will say about this in the future. 3. If unable to decide whats best, Call KOA.

[@obsidiansiriusblackheart]

Surprised I didn't see Lazy Squire Games or the guys doing Stellaris in here.............

[@TheKingofAverage]

I tried to cover new things only. I've covered LSG quite a few times at this point. What's up with Stellaris?

[@Resticon]

​@@TheKingofAverageStellaris is a few years late on delivery of their campaign, they are about 15 "redesigns" into the process, there hasn't been an update in months and the ones before the last barely contained any info about the state of the game either (for over a year), Facebook posts were deleted by the CEO during PAX because he felt "bullied" by the backers when they dared to ask for info about the game, and, as if all that weren't bad enough, the developers have already moved on to 2 other games that will presumably be used like Carbon 2185 to provide funds to maybe complete Stellaris. And all that before they've even closed the pledge manager or collected an unknown shipping cost. Their reason for the delay? Well...since the video game keeps updating they have to keep updating the board game. Totally makes sense, right?

[@skibber999]

I would love to see a video from you about Elf Creek Games. I am a backer of both Atlantis Rising: Monstrosities and Honey Buzz: Fall Flavors. Both are expansions that should have delivered long ago. But it is incrisingly clear to everyone involved that the company has been lying to us for years. They even did an extra fundraiser that was obviously a scam.

[@KeloseDEC]

I don't know about the gaming companies, but the Chinese table is a proactively planned scam. The fact that they raised half a million dollars is insane. I just hope that those 1600 people learn from their mistake when they lose all their money from nothing. More than that I hope other people learn. Who are we kidding? Those people probably already backed another 5 KS since then.

[@azza002]

As someone who has backed 38 projects on KS and another 8 on GF, I feel like I have been pretty lucky not to fall into any of these dodgy projects. I did go in at $1 on the Return to Planet Apocalypse campaign, but when the pledge manager opened I just wasn't feeling the cost and decided not to go any further, and thus ended up dodging a pretty big bullet. Most of my projects I back I try and make sure that the developer has delivered another campaign previously, so I have some confidence they will deliver again, but as you say you never know when they are just spinning plates until it all comes crashing down.

[@thorstenschleer8593]

Thanks Michael! Great video! What's the best way to find out how to send you an email? If you don't mind I'd love to hear your thoughts about a topic that's keeping me preoccupied me. I'm destroyed that we won't have a chance to meet at Essen this year... I was already sad that this would be my first year since a long time (except covid pause) that I won't be able to travel there... now its even worse 😢

[@nyraiderfan423]

Hey King, hope you do a video on the 3 open Gamefound campaigns from Locknload Publishing. There may be issue with diverting funds raised to stave off bankruptcy. Let me know what you think.

[@matthewwasserman3179]

Firstly, thank you for your videos. I appreciate you dont want to be negative but i think you provide a valuable service to everyone. You have shed a light on the industry i didnt know existed. Would love your thoughts on the recently fulfulled campaign by MWG/Lazy Squire. Was delayed about a year. Product seems reasonable. Were the delays they experienced normal? Was it done well? Should i consider backing them again?

[@erictatusko1212]

At some point, companies that take your money when they obviously can't or won't deliver a product are breaking the law. Even though Kickstarter says the product might not deliver when backing, the companies need to make a good faith effort to deliver. It might be time for some of these backers (at least if they live in the US) to contact their state's attorney general's office and start filing complaints. They might not be able to file criminal charges in all cases but they do have the ability fo file civil cases against them.

[@TechnoGolem]

I almost backed Carbon. Sounded like an interesting RPG but decided not to do it since it was their first game. Don't like to back anything unless they have a proven record of being able to deliver.

[@MrRogalos]

Celestial is live 😁😁😁

[@patrickcroteau3928]

Dining with dracula did the same thing. Ran 3 campaign and left with all our money. No update, nothing. they just vanished.

[@zerosdeath]

To add insult to injury, the only game they launched was broken beyond belief...

[@skuo118]

Bled you dry huh?

[@davidetosi2391]

Kickstarter for physjcal copies is just dumb, the future is self reliant production. We live in the era of easy technology, we have tablets and cellphones that conveniently can store all the manuals and books and comics you want, and you can buy a 3d printer to print your tools, miniatures and analogical stuff at home.

[@2Mini2Fun]

Dude I'm not in a place to offer monetary support unofrtunately but I will like comment subscribe in the hopes the algorithm helps, thanks for your content you really do god's work.

[@Swedeskanfly]

Another great video. I love that you deep dive into these fraudulent companies and bring them to light. Would love to hear your take on Elf Creek Games and the whole Atlantis Rising debacle. Total radio silence from the creators is giving me a bad vide. Keep up the great work Michael!

[@douglasjessup1085]

The other big fail that I backed was the Jurassic park miniatures game which they claimed was shipping

[@justanerd1138]

Love that someone is calling folks like this out. Keep it up brother. Mythic made mistakes but for the most part they also take the verbal beat downs on their servers so they are trying to own it.

[@wonderbread3371]

Thank you for making this video. I like the positive videos, but these types of videos are so very important.

[@GameBrigade]

King is the best at keeping people accountable

[@iansutton7416]

An important reflection you made, about how a few bad eggs can have a much broader impact on the crowdfunding scene. That's especially so for high profile issues like Mythic games and even the shipping price doubling debacle on Marvel Zombies. Such issues have certainly driven people I know away from crowdfunding.

[@TheKingofAverage]

I get so many comments about people leaving crowdfunding entirely because of it :( Sadly some of these companies have been able to hide their failure for a long while, meaning we're still hearing about it today. Hopefully at some point we get past this point where companies that were run badly and crashed from COVID are all mostly gone and old news. That'll help a lot I feel.

[@davidetosi2391]

@@TheKingofAverage it's not covid, it's just corporate greed.

[@jaimerivera2382]

@@TheKingofAverage It hasn't driven me completely away - just made me far more wary. I rarely go all-in anymore, and when I do, it's with a company I have had good results from previously. Most of the stuff I back now tends to be smaller, so even if it doesn't turn out well, I'm out maybe 30 bucks.

[@iansutton7416]

@@jaimerivera2382 I'm still not against smaller / new creators, but the game really has to call strongly enough for me to accept the extra risk, and I also set myself a very high bar before I'll back a game. Issues like additional costs such as shipping and VAT are regular killers of my interest, but a good number also fail to make a strong enough case to back vs. waiting for retail (when invariably there is better info & especially playthroughs available to make a more informed decision from).

[@stevensum2011]

No fire ball for black rose war rebirth 🔥😢

[@raw.paints8276]

Apparently shipping from China within the next month

[@sidneyleejohnson]

Still looking forward to your review of the status for madeira collector's edition KS campaign. Thanks again!

[@Zifferony]

Thank you for another very good video and great investigative work. You should be be featured in one of those TCG Marvel games because you are a superhero❣ As you point out however, the people watching your videos represent the informed minority. To tell you the truth I feel like correcting this situation at this point is like using a bucket to try and put out a fire, when the entire building is already aflame. All your hard work won't change the issues within the crowdfunding market which have been more or less unchecked and are now endemic. My question to you is this: Do you think companies like Kickstarter, Backerkit, Gamefound etc. should be held more accountable for the shady actors using their marketplace who either lack a viable business plan, or deliberately try to scam backers? Can they be forced to regulate them selves and their clients somehow? And if that were possible, what do you then think the whip and the carrot should be to get them to do it? I don't think a vast amount of backers leaving the platform is on the cards, and scammers will continue to try and scam for as long as there is easy prey.

[@TheKingofAverage]

KS, BackerKit, GF and such are in an interesting situation in that they have two separate groups of "customers" to appeal to. They have us sure, who spend our money on their platforms and they definitely want to make us happy. However they also have the developers who are also their customers and have a totally different set of needs and wants. So it's a fine line they walk in trying to make things as appealing as they can for both groups. It's why you see things that help both prioritized over ones that help only half of the equation. I do think they should do more to help protect us as in the end IMO, people > companies. But there aren't always perfect solutions to this. The hard part is the only true winners of a scam end up being the platform that got their fees paid already. TBH the only thing that keeps companies in check are enforced laws. Until that happens I don't see it ever really being solved.

[@raphaelperry8159]

4:53 Don't go putting ideas in Mythic's head!

[@frubblegump]

If DG ends up being a ponzi. You’ll owe a lot of ppl a huge apology. With Celestial being launched & other long delayed games not fulfilled. Really a huge worry.

[@TheKingofAverage]

Considering I'll be out my own money as well, I'll owe myself an apology as well :)

[@reneesteeves3698]

Hey there. I tried posting about another company but i think my post was deleted. Did I misspeak? I apologize if I offended anybody

[@TheKingofAverage]

I've not ever deleted a comment, but YT sometimes does if it deems language is bad or it's spamy (it hates links for instance) - try reposting and avoid anything like what I mentioned perhaps? I see nothing on my end.

[@siriactuallysara]

Being an accountant. 1) office rent if they were in a lease during Covid. There may not have been an out clause in their lease and we’re forced to pay the full rent even though they did not use the office. This happened to thousands of companies in 2020. 2) the salaries are an issue. Startup companies taking salaries from the development costs will run through all the cash and without further investments will go out of business.

[@TheKingofAverage]

Good point about the lease! I appreciate the added information on that :)

[@diszect7134]

This is a good video. Accountability is important.

[@CJUzziel]

Thanks for keeping us informed, KoA.

[@diszect7134]

Creature Caster is a lot like Stu-stu-Studium.

[@DataDrain]

I’d love to see you cover the disaster that is Epic Seven Arise, especially since the company behind it (Farside Game) is planning on (re)launching another board game Kickstarter for a game called Avalonia.

[@joachim4889]

They're? I thought that Project was Dead in the water. I can't wait for the he shit storm we epic 7 are going to cause in the comment section.

[@DataDrain]

@@joachim4889 It released in North America, but with a ton of missing stretch goals. From the look of the comments section on KS, ROTW backers haven’t received their pledges despite the game being available via retail. It really is a hot mess.

[@thebrothersslim6056]

Much love King!

[@ewenneiertz8362]

Boom !!! Mic drop 😂

[@MarcTheBored]

This "reporting" is poorly researched and before the edit was doxing the CC employee that is mentioned in the video. I'm one of many people who is dismayed with CC's delivery of the project, but this is cringe-y ragebait at best.

[@TheKingofAverage]

Not even Taylor called it doxxing so it's curious you see it worse on his behalf than he does (yes we spoke). I helped inform him he can hide the information on his publicly open LinkedIn and accommodated his request once he decided he didn't want that open to all. I also pinned a comment updating about the "ban". You are free to think as you wish, but I reached out and updated which I feel is far more than most do on YT. While I'm no full time press company, I do try and do my best with what I have.

[@LeeroyPorkins]

Zombicide: Dark Side

[@Twineandribbon]

They were foretelling the future!

[@skuo118]

What happen with this game? I bought a used one

[@LeeroyPorkins]

@@skuo118 I think it didn't sell well

[@Mike_James]

500k and its "theyre lying by omission and not respecting backers" but if its 12m + PMs + eshop sales + contributions then its just "unfortunate bad management". stop it. seriously. Mythic has literally sold games people have paid for at a 50% discount on their eshop if people didnt pay up again. if that isnt shady or a scam i dont know what is. the entire time hiding information and lying about where their projects and their company was while launching new campaigns. stating "no more contributions will be needed if you pay the 1st time, this is very important" there is a serious imbalance with coverage and approach. i only watched this video after the last one because a friend said you called Mythic out, in passing. im not sure this even qualifies as in passing. i guess these other companies should have just made a game you like then theyd be fine.

[@TheKingofAverage]

Not sure what you're getting at. Mythic Games was only passively covered here because I have other dedicated videos on it. There's sadly a ton of examples but I wanted to focus on a few recent and new ones here when speaking about the larger issue. I called Mythic Games out for this exact thing. For withholding information, for not being sincere and sorry, for running campaigns they couldn't actually deliver. I didn't do it in *this* video but there's plenty I didn't call out in this video. It's already 47 minutes of detailed work here without throwing everything else in there as well.

[@Subcomandante73]

KS backers deserve to get conned. The platform offers no consumer protection worth a damn. Backers do no research. And they back a gaming table that is clearly too good to be true to the tune of $446,000.

[@PRC533]

Zero consumer protection is just the norm in the US so I can see why people use crowdfunding. What gets me is that such an obvious way to make money took so long to come up with. Kickstarter is like the most genius way to get money from other people while providing a minimal service.

[@TheKingofAverage]

The attitude that people deserve to be stolen from because they are ignorant is a pretty extreme take on things I feel and borders on victim blaming.

[@Subcomandante73]

@@TheKingofAverage At some point people do have to take responsibility. These are no sophisticated frauds. Knowingly paying money up front on a platform with zero consumer protection, for projects that have big red flags, is an easy way to lose money. It may sound harsh but to be frank I am sick of hearing backers bemoaning KS failed projects that looked dodgy from day 1. I have no respect for 'influencers' who take money to schill for KS projects to create hype and take no responsibility when those projects fail.

[@snethss]

Im with Taylor on that exchange. Dealing with customers is challenging.

[@Sthunderrocker]

See I differ on that. If you take somebody's money you are now accountable for that. It'd be one thing if he was getting a hard time and wasn't doing anything wrong, but obviously while he's enjoying his weekend as he put it, games were not being completed due to issues he was not revealing. At that point I say give him hell. Within legal free speech.

[@TheKingofAverage]

You are seeming to compare that to a customer who bought something, not someone that paid you years ago and you still haven't given them what they paid for after you promised you would and that you know you can't.