The Demonic Case for Catholicism

[@shamelesspopery]

Thanks to everyone worried about my cold! I'm feeling much better now.

[@marysslave913]

This Protestant I know keeps saying the Eucharist miracles could be from the devil also he says the miracles from the Saints are from the devil then shows me Scripture that says anti Christ are going to do wonders and many false prophet in the last days. What would you say to that?? Also he says contemplative prayer is a open door to occult and not in the Bible.

[@john-paulgies4313]

@@marysslave913 "And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. But if I by the Spirit of God cast out devils, then is the kingdom of God come upon you." (Matthew 12:27-28) "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole strength. And these words which I command thee this day, shall be in thy heart: And thou shalt tell them to thy children, and thou shalt meditate upon them sitting in thy house, and walking on thy journey, sleeping and rising. And thou shalt bind them as a sign on thy hand, and they shall be and shall move between thy eyes. And thou shalt write them in the entry, and on the doors of thy house." (Deut. 6:4-9)

[@tony1685]

@@marysslave913 don't expect too many answers, friend. i was catholic 35 yrs and grew tired and frustrated that so many in catholicism know absolutely zero about the Word of our Creator. for example, God's Ten Commandments = Truth -- Psalm 119:142, 151 yet catholicism teaches contrary God's Truth: Ex 20:4-6, they still make and bow to statues, idols and body parts. Ex 20:8-11, they are a day late. the Bible proves the Lord's day is the 7th day Sabbath and forever will be. there is much, much, much more -- but friend, one either loves Christ -- John 14:15 -- or doesn't. catholicism clearly does not. i pray you and yours well, Mary. thanks for reading, Ma'am..

[@john-paulgies4313]

@@marysslave913 Matthew 12:27-28,31-32 Mark 16:20 Exod. 8:18 Deut. 6:4-9 Luke 2:19,51

[@john-paulgies4313]

@@marysslave913 Miracles: Matthew 12:27-28,31-32 Mark 16:20 Exod. 8:18 Mental Prayer: Deut. 6:4-9 Luke 2:19,51

[@Ladya12345]

When I was Protestant I had a big problem with the authority structure of the Catholic Church. One day it occurred to me that if I thought there was a demon, I would call the local Catholic Church. Why? Because they know what they are doing. I realized that when problems occurred I would be willing to submit to that authority. So I might as well just submit to it now. And now I’m Catholic! Obviously there was a whole journey but this argument is a powerful one

[@milo8425]

Beyond sensible. You deserve much credit for your convictions.

[@HAL9000-su1mz]

Sound thinking!

[@theticoboy]

Great story !

[@DanielAluni-v2t]

Amen. No atheism in foxholes, no anti Catholics in demonic presence

[@Ladya12345]

@@milo8425 thank you! All credit to God. I was pretty Anti-Catholic for a while. But I’m glad to be home

[@saintmatthew956]

This is the closest we've ever been to Joe Heschmeyer's Mysterious World.

[@gloriarodriguez3721]

I can see that 😂

[@IridiumAxle]

I'm down for that.

[@carlingtonme]

I was just thinking ...Jimmy Akin

[@2Maccabees]

Hope Joe didn't steal Jimmy's fire for a whole Mysterious World episode on this case!

[@Sevenspent]

I was once agnostic myself, but the final ice breaker was when I listened to Fr. Carlos Martins The exorcist files podcast and came back to the church through confession. I knew I couldn't be agnostic anymore because God proved to me he was real that day.

[@HereIsAYouTubeHandle]

The Exorcist Files is great!

[@perkinsmariaeleana3809]

God bless you

[@EliteTrainingForBasketball]

This episode hits hard. It was only from a case of demonic obsession that Our Lady led me to Christ and His Church. I was an anti-Catholic prot most of my life never in a million years thinking I would join Christ’s Church. Yet here I am, so that Christ may be glorified. Deo Gratias.

[@gloriarodriguez3721]

Thank you for sharing

[@michelleishappy4036]

you need to contact the fellow who does the Catholic ReCon channel on YT. Tell him your conversion story (it sounds fantastic) and he could interview you on his show I'm a convert too. Was raised a Baptist.

[@EliteTrainingForBasketball]

@@michelleishappy4036 Yeah I was baptist most of my life as well. I'll do this, thanks .. and God bless you.

[@AK-ZL1]

Two Shameless Popery videos in one week? Our prayers have been answered!

[@figurefour633]

What does that mean? I don’t understand the terminology

[@HAL9000-su1mz]

@@figurefour633 The channel is named "Shameless Popery" and Joe released two separate videos this week.

[@figurefour633]

@@HAL9000-su1mzhow did I miss that 😆

[@HAL9000-su1mz]

@@figurefour633 Miss what? 🙂

[@PabloVelasco-hr3ko]

a Protestant using the Symbol of Catholic Crusaders as his pfp? You protestants need to study history and not starting at 1500s

[@thovenach]

I dated a girl who's pastor (Lutheran) said "we call in the Catholic Church for any demonic activity including possession. They just know this way better than we do and half the time we are unable to cast out demons." In other words they 1 don't have the time to cast out demons. 2. they are not equipped to do it. 3. and they are unable to overcome this without the Catholic church.

[@sengan2475]

My friends non denom church does the same thing lol. How can they not understand the implications of this...

[@thovenach]

@@sengan2475 I can not tell you. I asked her at that time "what does that say about your church." She had no response to me. She decided to start attacking Mary.

[@Edward-ng8oo]

The Lutheran pastor you mention wasn’t being Lutheran if he thought that Catholic exorcisms are genuine. The following is what Luther rightly said in one of his sermons: Here someone might ask, How does it happen that wicked scoundrels, charlatans, sorcerers, and exorcists often cast out devils? This the devil does, God never. I have personally seen a man who was filled with devils, yet the priest who exorcised him was so sure he was on safe ground that he put his finger into the man's mouth and said, I dare you, bite! How can it be other but that one devil casts out another? St. Paul gives the answer (2 Thess. 2:9) that in the last days the devil will work signs, but they will be false signs. Therefore, the exorcism of the exorcist is false and not like Christ's exorcism. For even though the devil does come out, he does not do it in order to further the gospel but that he might strengthen people in idolatry and lead them away from faith, so that they fall completely from Christ. The devil possessed both of them, the poor man and the exorcist, and it can well be that the poor man was more upright and pious than the exorcist who cast out the devil, even though God admonished the poor man to discipline the flesh. When a devil comes out, he does it in order to aid another devil, to promote error, idolatry, and other abominations in people's hearts. For example, possessed individuals were brought to St. Cyriacus, St. Anstadt, and other saints, for the purpose of casting out a devil. However, the devil did not come out because he was compelled and was forced to retreat, but willingly and gladly, in order thus to strengthen the person's idolatry. Moreover, he has pretended at times to be very fearful of consecrated candles, consecrated salt, water, and other things, while his only interest in such pretense was to strengthen people in their superstition, so that there might be less likelihood of their coming to true faith and trust in God's Word and grace. Accordingly, these signs were, as Paul calls them, mendacia signa, "fictitious, lying wonders and signs," and pretense. In order, therefore, really to distinguish the genuine and true signs from the false, lying wonders, as when Christ and his apostles cast out devils by means of the Word, we must look at the devil's ultimate intent for exorcising himself and for positioning himself to do this sort of thing. Where the exorcism is a truly serious matter, that the devil should come out in order to verify the divine Word, to the glory and strengthening of Christian faith, he will then balk and resist being cast out. It's the same with the pope and the fanatics, and their conjuring with the cross, consecrated water, salt, and other things; the devil in fact remains unexorcised there; he does not yield unless he does it voluntarily. He indeed cannot tolerate God's Word being attested to, truth being comprehended, and Christian faith being strengthened. But when it's to his own advantage to come out, in order to promote his lies, so that the ungrateful world which refuses to call upon Christ can be persuaded to intercede with the saints and fall deeper into superstition, he then may allow a wicked rascal to be exorcised. Thus he can make the blind again to see, the deaf again to hear, the lame again to become whole. For this is not happening for the glory of Christ and his gospel, in order to confirm the truth but in order to confirm his lies, that people might place their trust in monkery, intercession of the saints, pilgrimages, vigils, masses, and the like as being holy things. For this reason he is so favorably disposed toward them. In short, the devil is never at loggerheads with himself; for if his lying charade is to continue, he is very ready to let himself be exorcised. But it is a deception played out under cover in order to deceive and seduce the world. When, however, exorcism progresses to the point where the finger of God is manifested and the kingdom of heaven draws near, there he resists as long as he can, as Christ states in the parable about the strong man who was fully armed. (pp. 342,343, Vol. V, The Complete Sermons of Martin Luther, Baker Book House, 2000)

[@batmaninc2793]

When I had my back broken from weight lifting I had thirty-plus doctors, four chiropractors, and two world-renowned pain specialists who couldn’t figure out what was wrong with my back and nerves. Prayed to Jesus and the Saints about it once and it all went away; with the help of my wife to convince me to pray for healing. Thank you, honey, and thank you, God!

[@john-paulgies4313]

"Sing ye to the Lord a new canticle: because he hath done wonderful things. His right hand hath wrought for him salvation, and his arm is holy. The Lord hath made known his salvation: he hath revealed his justice in the sight of the Gentiles. He hath remembered his mercy and his truth toward the house of Israel. All the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God. Sing joyfully to God, all the earth; make melody, rejoice and sing. Sing praise to the Lord on the harp, on the harp, and with the voice of a psalm: With long trumpets, and sound of cornet. Make a joyful noise before the Lord our king: Let the sea be moved and the fullness thereof: the world and they that dwell therein. The rivers shall clap their hands, the mountains shall rejoice together At the presence of the Lord: because he cometh to judge the earth. He shall judge the world with justice, and the people with equity." (Ps. 97)

[@maddadbricks]

Having been through a fairly intense period of atheism and scepticism, the degree to which exorcists matched and surpassed the level of sceptism I saw elsewhere was one of the things that brought me back.

[@grossepointemichigan]

Praise God!

[@bluemango8689]

Is it ironic because even evilness can bring people back to God. Whether it's spiritual form or physical, like what's happening on the west now with their w0ke ägendãs. People running back to God because evil is not even hiding anymore and has shown it's true face 👹, and they be like..NOPE I'm not dealing with that sh*t 😆

[@johngleason3250]

Working my way back ..not there yet...because of the Excorsists. God Bless 👍♥️

[@maddadbricks]

@@johngleason3250you too man! 🦾🙏 PS Make sure you check out Fr Chad Ripperger

[@OPiguy35]

This has been a significant intellectual and ministerial draw for me to Catholicism

[@musicarroll]

@OPiguy35 The harmony of faith and (right) reason has always been a hallmark of the true faith. Luther disparaged reason and Calvin did away with free will. The endless dividing and subdividing of Protestant denominations is the "fruit" of their teachings.

[@prayunceasingly2029]

​@musicarroll can you explain how luther disparaged reason? Thanks!

[@musicarroll]

@@prayunceasingly2029 But since the devil’s bride, Reason, that pretty whore, comes in and thinks she’s wise, and what she says, what she thinks, is from the Holy Spirit, who can help us, then? Not judges, not doctors, no king or emperor, because [reason] is the Devil’s greatest whore. [Martin Luther’s Last Sermon in Wittenberg … Second Sunday in Epiphany, 17 January 1546. Dr. Martin Luthers Werke: Kritische Gesamtausgabe. (Weimar: Herman Boehlaus Nachfolger, 1914), Band 51:126, Line 7ff]

[@johnpauls7660]

The devil's greatest trick was convincing us that he doesn't exist

[@HAL9000-su1mz]

Charles Baudelaire (1821-1867) Poet, essayist, art critic. I think the devil's second greatest trick is to divert our focus from God to the sinners around us. Like Saint Peter, we sink when we take our gaze off of the Lord.

[@RockerfellerRothchild1776]

Meh.... People know... They're siding with him

[@HAL9000-su1mz]

@@RockerfellerRothchild1776 You are giving them a lot of credit - especially here at KZbin.

[@fabianagco5902]

@@RockerfellerRothchild1776 Nah, they are not on his side. They just listen to him and get duped.

[@tony1685]

his greatest is fooling people into believing catholicism is Christianity.

[@SouthernFriedPap1st]

I'm the Doubting Thomas. I'm Catholic because of the miracles and the lives of the saints. A lot of apologists tend to minimize the quality of my conversion because I didn't start off with a deep intellectual dive into the faith. That came later.

[@tony1685]

yet catholicism doesn't follow Jesus Christ and 'miracles' are also done by demons.

[@skitsschist11]

​​@@tony1685 This is literally what the Pharisees said and Christ condemned it as the unforgivable sin. In fact: 43:40

[@glennlanham6309]

we need Heart AND Head...

[@tony1685]

how 'intellectual' can it be when it doesn't even abide by God's Truth?

[@tony1685]

@@skitsschist11 we know the difference because catholicism doesn't follow God's Word -- proving it's not Christianity.

[@Nomorehero07]

That argument about satanist going after the Catholic church, along exorcisms and the exorcist knowledge about spiritual warfare is also one of the reasons why I return to the Catholic church back in April.

[@timrichardson4018]

I've had two major experiences with the demonic in my life. In one, I was the only witness. In the other, I was the only witness to a particular event, but others had had similar encounters with the same demon possessed person. I agree. We should be aware of these things. But we shouldn't fear or be fixated on them. Stay close to Christ in prayer and the sacraments, and you have nothing to fear

[@jamesmountforge7523]

I got a particularly grotesque ad for TikTok right before this video, and then i hear Joe say, "Demonic possession." 😂

[@jesus_is_my_spotter]

One thing that brought me fully back to the Catholic Church is the supernatural. All the was from the ordinary miracle we experience in the Eucharist to protection from evil spirits. I adore the all powerful, all knowing God. It, in my opinion, is untenable to deny the supernatural.

[@starshipchris4518]

Inerestingly, I know a hardline OPC pastor who considers the Mass a blasphemous abomination, but reluctantly also sees black mass desecration of the Eucharist a sort of sacrilege. I have never understood how to reconcile those views.

[@WayneDrake-uk1gg]

OPC and that kind of Calvinism isn't really "religion", as such, it's more politics. It follows that it doesn't really matter whether criticism of two opposing "enemy camps" are consistent, what matters is high energy empty rhetoric

[@glennlanham6309]

See my post above...ever heard of a Black Tent Revival?

[@iamdigory]

That's not hard to reconcile, if the Satanists mean to blaspheme then they are blaspheming, even if the rite they are parodying has its own problems.

[@glennlanham6309]

@@iamdigory That makes zero sense. If the Eucharist is flawed, their parody would have no power.

[@starshipchris4518]

@@iamdigory So it is just 'politics', like the prior poster said.

[@worldofthesupernatural]

This was excellent. I interviewed the exorcist in the Ammons case and he told je that after the first exorcism they believed it had been successful. He gave Latoya a Rosary and said goodbye. In the parking lot he found the Rosary torn to pieces next to his car. They knew it wasn’t over.

[@gaspartiznado6418]

I’m a simple man. I see Joe talking about the supernatural, I click.

[@samuelnicacio4621]

You might even say: I see Joe, I click.

[@HumanDignity10]

I usually avoid videos about demons and exorcisms because I get scared. I know demons exist but I try not to spend time thinking about them. This video was well done, not too scary, and your advice at the end was perfect.

[@brandanimations3790]

If you're in State of Grace(you confessed your sins in the Sacrament of Confession with a Catholic Priest) and you're going to mass regularly, then the demons fear you because they know the damage a soul in State of Grace can do against their influence and plans to doom the souls. Please pray the Rosary and offer the Holy Host for the salvation of souls, you'll save people from eternal damnation doing so, also please pray for me, I'm in need.

[@smartismarti4049]

This should be interesting. Spiritual warfare played a huge role in bringing me to Catholicism.

[@tony1685]

the Word of God helped me move to Christianity from catholicism, after 35 yrs. of the lies.

[@smartismarti4049]

@@tony1685 The Word of God that the Catholic church preserved and determined to be the Word of God.

[@masterchief8179]

@@tony1685 A female prophetess under demonic influence in Michigan, 19th century, did it to you (Ellen White). Thanks for the interaction.

[@waseemhermiz7565]

​@@tony1685tell us more about your ignorance

[@jimmydavid1993]

❤

[@eddiej9733]

The penny dropped for me as a Catholic fully committing to the Church that it can be the full truth and way AND full of heretical, hypocritical, skullduggery, and sacrilegious behaviour by all and sundry. The doctrines, sacraments and theology is rock solid !

[@Heracleetus]

This is the stuff that brought me back to the Church 3 years ago

[@Americanheld]

This was riveting to listen to! You have a knack for telling stories, do more of these case studies please, Joe!

[@KSTrekker]

This is partially why I converted from Southern Baptist to Catholic. I became very interested in deliverance ministries and studying the occult (only from a Christian perspective of being armed with knowledge). I was told by my Deacon father, the Pastor, and several other elders that I need to drop this nonsense and quit talking about it. Evangelicals either go to one extreme where everything is demons, or they totally rule out any demonic activity in this world.

[@PabloVelasco-hr3ko]

God Bless, and Nice Benedict Medal!

[@johndougherty7216]

Your comment about atheistic dogmatism reminds me of reading Carl Sagan’s The Demon Haunted World some years ago. He offered his reader “The Baloney Detector” in which he makes a long list of logical fallacies and rhetorical flourishes that should lead one to reject an argument. I was struck by the glaring fact that he never applied this tool to his own worldview, and clung dogmatically to his metaphysical priors. Yet I found The Baloney Detector useful enough that I began sharing it with my Bible study groups when we discussed apologetics.

[@WayneDrake-uk1gg]

I wonder why Sagan tends to be on the apologists' hit lists. He was, after all, a man who pursued truth with passion, awe, and wonder, and was even an evangelist. A true Christian, "up to isomorphism"

[@Tstep45_qr]

I guess it's because people tend to give an unbiased opinion on those things which have no toll on their pride 👍

[@WayneDrake-uk1gg]

@@Tstep45_qr man, that's deep. And it hints that the underlying sin in Pope Francis' recent comments about people becoming "stuck in dogmatic boxes" is Pride, a deadly sin, indeed. I don't think Carl Sagan was a dogmatist at all. He was certainly a skeptic, but I think, at heart, he was much more of a Liberation Theologian, and a kindred spirit of our Pope. He applied science and reason to tear down dogmatic boxes of superstition, but instead of greeting him with flowers, many of the newly liberated mounted a counter offensive

[@USDebtCrisis]

There's a meme floating around that in horror movies they always call a Catholic priest. Its because of apostolic succession and the sacrament of holy orders that they recieve the holy spirit Jesus breathed into the Apostles. It gives them power to cast out demons.

[@HAL9000-su1mz]

The one I've seen is "Everybody makes fun of Catholics. Until they have a demon!"

[@ClaraStillwater]

“When it comes to fighting vampires and performing exorcisms, the Roman Catholic Church has the heavy artillery” is how Roger Ebert opened his review of John Carpenter’s Vampires. “Your other religions are good for everyday theological tasks, like steering their members into heaven, but when the undead lunge up out of their graves, you want a priest on the case."

[@USDebtCrisis]

@ClaraStillwater In the movie Constantine he reads final rights to a demon he is fighting and the demon retorts that he isn't ordained. That line doesn't make any sense to anyone who doesn't know what apostolic succession is.

[@sunnyjohnson992]

The New Catholic Encyclopedia admits: “The scarcity of documents leaves much this is obscure about the early development of the episcopate.” “Historical evidence does not exist for the entire chain of succession of church authority.” (The Roman Catholic Church)

[@HAL9000-su1mz]

@@sunnyjohnson992 Typical JW deception. Quote mining produces only fool's gold.

[@mememe1468]

As i was considering protestantism against mormonism the missionaries would say," where are miracles today?" With loss of miracles being a sign of the great apostasy. Most of my evangelical freinds denied miracles or would affirm small things like God miraculously gave them a car after they put in a bunch of work to get it. I thought," alright, is it possible miracles stopped?" But i always came back to the subject of demons. Our culture is flooded with them. How do we "magically" get them to leave? It was something i could never shake

[@Heracleetus]

Joe I like the way you record and process your audio. So many shows overcompress vocals and it leads to ear fatigue but your audio is very easy on the ears.

[@rappmasterdugg6825]

One may be known by who one's enemies are.

[@tonyl3762]

Did I click on a Joe Heschmeyer video or a Jimmy Akin one? 😊 Very well argued. Definitely one piece of the puzzle for those seeking the truth. Nice take on recent Sunday gospel too.

[@tanyeeast2833]

Baptist here discerning Catholicism, this idea of "call the priest" permeates in a way that speaks to that priest's authority ( all authority comes from God) so must the priest's by virtue of it's existence and this seemed like something to consider. A while later I was speaking with my dad who is catholic, we were discussing the whole German synod letter thing and he pointed out that I seemed to have a stake in the authority and teachings of Rome and the Pope so I found myself at another wall of authority that I cared about all this to say pray for me if you'd be so kind. it is not an easy thing to open your mind this wide and not feel lost at times.

[@ericgatera7149]

This was very interesting, and well argued. As for the comment that the exorcism was effective because it was perform in Latin, I do not think this is necessarily the best explanation for why it was successful. Rather, we could posit that the 3rd exorcism in Latin concluded the child deliverance because exorcism is a process. Usually in practicing exorcism (deliverance) the demonic grip on the victim gets weaker with time. Hence the victory over Satan should not be attributed to a language per se, but ultimately to the power of the name of Jesus which was insistently used by the Priest in the course of the 3 sessions (along with blessed sacramentals).

[@Fiddleslip]

Ironically, believeing that latin has some special power to command demons is superstitious.

[@essafats5728]

an exorcist priest commented on a KZbin channel said Latin is stronger bcoz it is the language of the Catholic Church=Authority

[@ericgatera7149]

@@essafats5728 Maybe it is the language of the Church but it is not the language of the Bible (Greek and Hebrews) and yet demons were expelled effectively in those languages too. Hence languages can't possibly be a defining criterion to overcome an opressive evil.

[@essafats5728]

@@ericgatera7149 So, what language did the apostle and disciples spread the gospel throughout the nations? Plz guide me where it explicitly states that in the Holy Bible. Did all those nations speak and understand Greek and/or Hebrew? Are you yourself an exorcist?

[@Fiddleslip]

@@essafats5728 I've also heard an exorcist say this, but that exorcist also admitted to interrogating demons to gain occult(secret) knowledge. Fr. Carlos Martins, who is also an exorcist, has said that the language used has no effect on an exorcism one way or the other.

[@RENALDO.]

What Happened to the intro music ? It was nice. When I'm driving Uber I use it to get my riders attention . . and sometimes they listen to it . . One passenger said he liked listening to the show. Another passenger gave me a little "God Bless" on the way out of the car. Anyway I hope you bring it back. God Bless 🙂

[@maxellton]

Yes, bring back the intro music!

[@Lovecatholicfaith]

Because of your job and others like you the fire of Eucharist is burning people heart and leading them to Jesus Church! Thanks brother.

[@ToxicallyMasculinelol]

One of your best videos yet Joe. Thanks.

[@SevereFamine]

Yay! Hour long popery is huge!

[@andrewlusk8213]

I love all the little jokes you make like Jesus quoting Lincoln lol

[@cameronferguson9555]

Thank you for making me laugh very hard at work at your Abraham Lincoln joke

[@jonathanrivero3424]

Hey Joe, maybe you can do a similar video examining Eucharistic Miracles and/or Marian Apparitions and how they support the Catholic position.

[@garyhaynes6469]

An excellent and fascinating episode. Many thanks. Ave Maria.

[@davidramsey2566]

Very thoughtful presentation. Please do more videos on this topic!

[@tarminas6805]

Excellent video with a great message to close. God bless the work.

[@FeroxMinisterium]

Great video Brother! This explains a lot for me and reinforced my beliefs!

[@rickfilmmaker3934]

Please keep doing 2 videos a week Joe! The world needs them! You are that good!!! Thank You Joe!

[@Shannon_Lacey]

Joe, you are the man! This was a great video as usual, and thoroughly fascinating.

[@dylankrause1418]

Solid top Joe. Thank you!

[@imjustheretogrill9260]

Jimmy Akin is very skeptical of Catholic exorcisms and exorcists stories. Could you dialog with him about that?

[@AlexTheCatholic]

Only a couple of more days until Exorcist files S2 is out! 🙌🏻

[@kevinquinn1993]

"Old people" is perhaps the wrong term. Maybe "People of old" might be a better term? I am old enough to be your father, Joe, yet I agree with what you are saying

[@milo8425]

Makes tons of sense that Jewish exorcisms are still viable; thank you for touching on that!

[@musicarroll]

Bayesian analysis can help here: H=hypothesis (e,.g., this was a supernaturally caused happening), and E=evidence (e.g., boy walks backwards up the wall) Then, Bayes says, P(H|E) = P(E|H)*P(H)/(E). A fair-minded person would not assign 0 to either probability in the numerator. Modern-day skeptics do assign 0 to one or both of these probabilities. That's the very definition of prejudice.

[@sivad1025]

Skeptics don't have an issue with P(E|H). We all accept that supernatural things would happen under the demin hypothesis. The problem is, as you said, the prior probability is always assumed to be 0 as a theology priori

[@WayneDrake-uk1gg]

It seems this may not be so much a matter of "evidence" as "preference". Suppose an atheist actually goes and witnesses some wildly supernatural exorcism. The priest then asks him, "Well...now that you saw that, you surely believe demons exist, yes?". But suppose the atheist simply isn't impressed and says, "Meh, I don't know, I'll admit it was strange, but lots of things are strange...there's probably some natural explanation I'm just not clever enough to figure out". In other words, if the event doesn't stretch the atheist's paradigm to the point he prefers to abandon it in favor of the priest's explanation, then what else is there to say?

[@musicarroll]

@WayneDrake-uk1gg Right, the preference is encoded in the value P(H),the prior. If the skeptic is willing to grant at least a small amount of prior probability, the mounting evidence can steadily raise the posterior probability. But as long as he insists on assigning 0 to that probability, no amount of evidence will move the needle.

[@crusaderACR]

​​​ Nothing. There's nothing left to say. A stubborn and dogmatic worldview like that cannot be debunked. It's not a matter of evidence or preference anymore. Chesterton argued that a lunatic hasn't lost his reason, but instead has lost everything EXCEPT his reason. As he said, "poets don't go insane, chess players do". If you find some guy who's stubborn that he's being followed by the CIA, then any argument put forth, any witness to the contrary, gets the "well that's exactly what a CIA agent would say". And you know what? That's a coherent and irrefutable argument, yet still wrong. It's all utterly dogmatic. There's a response to everything, just like with someone who's clinically insane you get an irrefutable response to everything. Darn, I once saw an atheist apologist say (I forget his name) that if 1000 people walked in and said they saw a dragon, he wouldn't believe it, and in another occasion that if he saw God himself talking to him, he'd think he was dreaming anyway. There's nothing to do anymore. You could only pull up the consequences of these beliefs and hope they digest it and come to a real conclusion that doesn't involve anything repugnant or insane. And, God willing, they'll see that these conclusions only point one way and it is not atheism. Here's what I say instead: If I'm not insane unawares, and the vast majority of people aren't schizophrenics, then not only does God exist, but God's Church is the Catholic Church. This I hold firm and believe wholeheartedly. Edit: When I say nothing I don't mean to say that this is the only good argument in favor of Catholicism. There's a LOT more. All I'm saying is that this path of argumentation was utterly exhausted already and you should try something else. Though to be fair, someone who so readily considers their own insanity (or of others) in order to sustain their mistaken beliefs is hard to argue with already. "I'm not clever enough" yeah get out brother, may God bless you.

[@crusaderACR]

​​@@WayneDrake-uk1gg I think my response was deleted. KZbin is a mess sometimes. Brother what you're describing goes beyond mere evidence or preference. Don't bring up statistics, reasoning will do nothing for you. It's a stubborn, small and iron-clad shell that cannot be argued with anymore. Chesterton once argued that a lunatic isn't someone who has lost his reason, it's someone who has lost everything BUT his reason. As he said, "poets don't go insane, chess players do." If you find a guy convinced he's being followed by the CIA you won't get anywhere with mere argument. Any evidence, any witness imaginable, will be brought with the response "that's exactly what a CIA agent would say". What can you say? That's coherent and irrefutable, but wrong. You can't address it logically or rationally, you are only left with emotional or common-sense arguments. It's utterly dogmatic, that's what. It's small, limited, closed. I once saw an atheist apologist mention that even if 1000 people walked in and swore they witnessed a dragon, he still wouldn't believe it (I forget his name). In another occasion, that even if God Himself spoke to him, he'd think he was dreaming or imagining things. It's the exact same case as the madman of before. I'd also like to address that point about your atheist arguing "strange things happen all the time". In a document from I believe the Jesus Seminar (an atheist org) there was a quick dismissal of how they do believe that there were hundreds of witnesses of the resurrection but were all mistakes because Fatima. What mindset would make them think it's reasonable to go "it appears miraculous, but there's this other miraculous thing that's also obviously false (but also can't refute), therefore the first one is too." Your atheist admitted to witness the supernatural, and dismissed all further witnessing by grasping onto that one. How is that even rational? Spell it out, you'll see it's nonsense. Here's what I say: If I'm not insane unawares, and the vast majority of humans aren't schizophrenics, then God exists and His Church is the Catholic Church. This I believe wholeheartedly. Edit: When I say there's nothing to say anymore, I mean to say that that line of argumentation is over. There are a million of other lines, many which you can probably try to exploit (certainty does require being convinced from several angles, after all). However, there's much to consider when you have a person which so readily sacrifices their own sanity in order to sustain a mistaken belief. You may have to address the reasons for the stubbornness. Is it because of the life-changing consequences the existence of God would entail? Is it a misunderstanding about the faith? In order words is it cowardice? Ignorance? Something else? You should argue for the Faith to the person anyway, everyone has their own misgivings. It also helps to let the argument simmer in thst person's mind. This stuff's hard. May God help us and grant us all mercy.

[@Stocmas98]

Prof Twelftree was my dissertation supervisor at the London School of Theology. An excellent man and an excellent academic. Very pleased to see his work being quoted here! Thanks Joe!

[@videonmode8649]

Should do an interview with Fr. Ripperger

[@cozyhomemakingvibes]

Thank you. Very good. Thought provoking and sound

[@mpasaa]

It sort of makes sense that many don't believe because it's what the devil wants.... for people to not believe he or demons exist because it makes his diabolical job simpler. Not everything is rooted in demonic activity as we humans certainly have the ability to be horrible, terrible, immoral creatures too. Can't blame the devil for everything but to dismiss all instances is naive to say the least. Interesting account.

[@mattbernacki9282]

The saddest part about this is that there are many Catholics, both lay and clergy, that don't believe in the demonic or the real threat they represent.

[@grossepointemichigan]

Sounds like Joe has a bit of a cold. Feel better soon!

[@jendoe9436]

I thought his voice sounded different.

[@EmergingCatholic]

Came here to inquire. I started listening to this on Podcast, and I thought someone else was talking, but the cadence of the voice sounded 100% Joe. I had to get to the video to see for myself! Weird, glad I'm not crazy!

[@Kekamalei]

Relics help greatly!

[@tony1685]

isn't Jesus enough?

[@halleylujah247]

​@@tony1685hi Tony

[@Kekamalei]

@@tony1685 read Book of Job. God Himself says to Job's friends to go to Job. Read it. READ IT!

[@bengoolie5197]

@@tony1685 "Jesus is not enough. Only the bible is enough! We MUST worship the bible!" Joe protestant

[@Kekamalei]

@@tony1685 read the book of Job. Read it. READ IT ALL!

[@jimherlihy]

Great episode, and informative. It's almost impossible to dismiss the supernatural with a case like the one presented here, and almost impossible to dismiss the importance of the Catholic rite of exorcism (Latin) as the only available weapon to fight this type of possesion.

[@bigdog1106]

What to Protestants and Evangelical do when reading Mathew 7:21-23? [22] "Many will say to me on that day, o ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?" This is used as evidence that they are Christians.

[@hirehammer925]

Read those verses again please. Jesus is saying to those who prophesied in his name, to those who cast out demons, I never knew you. These are not proofs of Christianity. The question is, “are you born again “? Are you being conformed into the image of Christ? Does the Spirit of God dwell in you.

[@HAL9000-su1mz]

EDIT: They were not good Christians. They paid Christ lip service, but their hearts were far from him. By your standard, as long as someone disagrees, nothing is true, and infact nothing exists. THAT is an existential crisis.

[@bigdog1106]

@@HAL9000-su1mz Yeah, it is not a good one as they do not belong to His flock, His Church but someone else's church. As if a church founded by a man or woman is equal to The Church built by God.

[@sunnyjohnson992]

Any claimed expelling of demons would be, not instruments of God, but agents of the Devil. In using persons as exorcists, even doing so in Jesus’ name, Satan would not be divided against himself. Rather, by this seemingly good work of undoing the case of demon possession, Satan would be transforming himself into “an angel of light,” thereby advancing his power and influence over the deceived. (2 Corinthians 11:14)

[@bigdog1106]

@@sunnyjohnson992 They give evidence of their Faith but they believe in Faith Alone, not Faith, Hope, and Charity with Charity the greater of the three. Moreover, they did not belong to His church and eat His flesh and drink His blood.

[@marknovetske4738]

You're one of our very best! Thanks Joe

[@anthonyfowler2623]

If you read Tobit 12:15 you’ll find that archangel Raphael the healer of God shows

[@anne-marieboucher9751]

Thank you so much for that beautiful ending!

[@avriel6903]

I would like to say that not all Protestants are like this. I’m an American evangelical, charismatic pentecostal (I know, the weird kind) and I grew up in another, more mystical country I won’t name for legal reasons. There we encountered demons fairly routinely, and exorcisms were had and SUCCEEDED even without the presence of the Catholic church. I would also like to say, however, that I do respect the authority of the catholic church in this way. I have seen the Devil fight the catholic church as much as I have seen him fight my churches growing up, and thus I believe I have good reason to trust in much of what is said; but, in the end, not all protestants are modernists/post-modernists who dont believe in the spiritual. I actually am quite mystic. Also side note side note, I believe in the catholic biblical canon, prima scriptura, intercession of the saints, and Orthodox Mariology. I also don’t believe in sola fide and all that, so please don’t rag on me for being evangelical haha

[@catholicguy1073]

Awesome episode. Thank you. Are there any good Chesterton books you would recommend? I’ve read several CS Lewis books and Chesterton is on my radar to read here in the near future. Thanks!

[@vinciblegaming6817]

48:51 is there anything to someone who believes the claims of Christ but does not know to be enmeshed in the church vs someone who rejects Christ but goes around exorcising in his name? Because the impression I get in those two cases would be on par with an Episcopalian priest or a Protestant missionary casting out demons vs a Muslim or atheist who rejects Christ trying to cast out a demon in Christ’s name…

[@basedsigmalifter9482]

Hey Joe, could you please make a video refuting the idea that the Book of Mormon could not have been made up? I feel like while it is easy to disprove many Mormon claims/ doctrines, they always fall back on this and demand an answer for how it was made. It doesn’t matter to them if it’s not historically proven or if Joseph Smith was untrustworthy, if we don’t give an alternative explanation. Thanks! (Btw Catholic convert from mormonism here)

[@HAL9000-su1mz]

There are many eerie similarities between Islam and Mormonism. Tends to point to a common source.

[@josephology3290]

St Joseph, TERROR OF DEMONS, ora pro nobis! 💪 🪓

[@MataniuFulu]

The power of the apostolic authority Christ gave to His Church to cash out evil spirits ...

[@dezericka]

Spitting truth! Wow! Even if he’s sick Joel dropping truth bombs!

[@paularnold3745]

At about 42:00: The authority that comes with valid Apostolic Succession.

[@2Maccabees]

Best SP podcast ever. More like this, Joe.

[@triconcert]

I remember seeing video of that young man sliding up the wall backwards. Very creepy!

[@damnedmadman]

Link?

[@mariocano2767]

Hello,Joe!!! Big fan of yours. You sound like you might be a little under the weather in this video. Did Cy get you sick in that cruise 🚢? 🤔😉😁

[@danielnyambi4425]

Many thanks for an insightful and balanced treatment of the topic. 🙏🙏🙏

[@adamolson7631]

It’s the Jimmy Akins mysterious world episode of Shameless popery

[@SuperTommox]

This is where I struggle a lot in my faith.

[@crusaderACR]

Why, brother? A penny for your thoughts?

[@billyg898]

Yea, can you elaborate?

[@mottledbrain]

51:06 -- Yes this is how must strive to live our lives at all times (as best we are able to). Dominus vobiscum, Reg

[@joehiggs4349]

Very well done. Thank you.

[@grunyonthoughtsfromagrunt8264]

Ask almost any Satanist which form of Christianity is the true one and they will all point to the Catholic Church.

[@HAL9000-su1mz]

They NEVER break into Baptist communities for Ritz and Welch's.

[@iggyantioch]

​@@HAL9000-su1mz 😅

[@edwindevera7549]

Why believe a Satanist? Or demons?

[@grunyonthoughtsfromagrunt8264]

@edwindevera7549 Um.....they don't go to a Protestant church to desecrate a torn off piece of unconsicrated Wonder bread for use in Black Masses where it has no meaning. They go to a Catholic Church and steal a consecrated host. I don't know the number, but some Satanic Preists can tell a consecrated from a non consecrated host. This is true of many Saints as well. Even Pope Saint John Paul could tell. They even tested it it out without his knowledge several times, and he could tell. Just on this alone lends credence to the fact that the Catholic Church is the Church that Christ started. And all others in its footsteps that split off if it are shadows of the true Christian Church. Granted, some have a deeper sense and teaching of the overall truth than others. But get the fullness of the truth and Christianity, at least as much as us mere mortals can understand it it well that can only be found in The Holy Catholic Church.

[@PabloVelasco-hr3ko]

@@edwindevera7549 if the great enemy is more worried about the Catholic Church than protestants this should tell you all you know

[@perryellison5255]

The one element of this topic Protestants do place focus, and also correctly believe, is that the demonic can hear us and/or that we can communicate with these entities. It always comes up when they talk about how the saints and Mary however don’t have that capability…

[@Maranatha99]

Mary & the saints are of a different category than demons. Demons are fallen angels. Mary & saints are pple who passed from this world to the other. Physically dead pple cannot hear us, no, even if they are alive in the spirit. Leviticus 19:31“Do not turn to mediums or necromancers; do not seek them out, and so make yourselves unclean by them: I am the LORD your God. The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) explains that saints are part of the Body of Christ, which includes both the living and the dead. So, the CCC called "dead" those who left this world already. Leviticus tells us not to communicate with dead people.

[@perryellison5255]

LOL!! 🤣🤣This is a such an erroneous comment with regards to every single point you made. This is why we have the authority of the Church so that stupidity and heresy can be easily identified.

[@perryellison5255]

@@Maranatha99you simply cannot isolate scripture when you don’t understand the actual meaning of the text and how it in actuality wildly the opposite of what you think it to be. Even Satan quotes scripture.

[@Maranatha99]

@@perryellison5255 Stupidity & heresy are not identified via any church but via the Word of God.

[@perryellison5255]

@@Maranatha99 If you’re truly, truly, TRULY interested in having your mind open to this topic... then watch the great historian and Calvinist scholar Dr. David Anders discuss this from the 25:00 - 30:00 mark (five minutes) in his video found on KZbin titled EWTN Journey Home. It’s from 12 years ago and will provide that timestamp near the episodes title.

[@101Sailorfan]

Appreciate it!😊

[@Nontradicath]

Joe directs the question at 38:50 at "atheists", of which I am not, but I am a methodological naturalist, and so I will take a swing at answering. I do want to say that the question isn't quite right. Joe asks how we explain that ALL of the professionals concluded that this was actually demonic? Its not the case that all professionals thought as such! From that same IndyStar article: ... "Clinical psychologist Stacy Wright, who evaluated Ammons' youngest son, said the boy tended to act possessed when he was challenged, redirected or asked questions he didn't want to answer. In her evaluation, Wright wrote that he seemed coherent and logical except when he talked about demons. It was then that the 8-year-old's stories became "bizarre, fragmented and illogical," Wright said. His stories changed each time he told them. He also changed the subject, quizzing Wright on math problems and asking her about outer space. "Can you die if you go to space?" he asked. "How do you get to space? Do you have to wear a helmet and suit?" Wright believed the 8-year-old did not suffer from a true psychotic disorder. "This appears to be an unfortunate and sad case of a child who has been induced into a delusional system perpetuated by his mother and potentially reinforced" by other relatives, she wrote in her psychological evaluation. Clinical psychologist Joel Schwartz, who evaluated Ammons' daughter and older son, came to a similar conclusion. "There also appears to be a need to assess the extent to which (Ammons' daughter) may have been unduly influenced by her mother's concerns that the family was exposed to paranormal experiences," Schwartz wrote." ... Additionally, I tend not to get all hung up on these things because I think that the evidence of the overwhelming consistency of the laws of nature is simply far superior to the evidence that the laws of nature are contravened. That is not to say "there is no evidence" that the laws of nature have been broken. My claim is more humble than that. My claim is just that the evidence is better that the laws of nature never change or break.

[@Rightsideup23]

Interesting points. I was looking through the replies to see if anyone would take up the challenge to respond to Joe's question. How would you define methodological naturalism? I'm not a philosopher or anything, and I'm unfamiliar with the term. You've addressed the fact that not all professionals were convinced this case involved the demonic, but that doesn't completely answer Joe's question. Allow me to rephrase the question: Can you come up with a coherent, reasonable, naturalistic explanation that perfectly accounts for all these reported occurrences? To answer your point about the evidence for naturalism, I like to think about it this way: There are two competing hypotheses here, and we should choose whichever fits the data best. One hypothesis is that the world works in a completely naturalistic way, that is, all occurrences can be fully explained by physical laws. The other is that the world almost always acts in a naturalistic way, except for a few rare occurrences that cannot be explained solely by physical laws. (I guess there is technically a third option, which is for someone to just be unsure what is correct, but for the sake of discussion I will ignore this). Consider the evidence you pointed out- the evidence of the observable, overwhelming consistency of the laws of nature (which is evidence you claim supports naturalism). We can ask the question, which of the two hypotheses does this evidence better support? Well, the thing is, BOTH hypotheses acknowledge that most observed occurrences can be explained naturalistically. Therefore, I fail to see why this evidence would point to hypothesis 1 over hypothesis 2. In all honesty, I think the main reason why people would reject this story as some elaborate conspiracy/delusion is because it sounds crazy. Like, I'm a Catholic myself, and even I think a boy walking backwards up a wall sounds ABSURD. There are other Catholic teachings that, if I take a step back from, would make me say, 'Well this sounds completely wacky'. If scientific training has done anything for me, though, it's shown me that I can't discount anything just because it sounds absurd on the face of it, because out intuitions on such matters can be very unreliable. When considering the evidence in this case without the assumption that a supernatural explanation is inherently impossible/implausible, an assumption which I don't think is very well supported, the facts seem to lead me towards the conclusion that something supernatural has occurred. Cheers!

[@j8000]

​@@Rightsideup23it's not particularly complicated to provide a naturalist accounting for "reported occurrences" of miracles. As the KZbinr explains initially, hoaxes and lies happen all the time. Reporting a miracle is very easy; I am in fact levitating as I write this. You have to be very specific when you evaluate the claims being made. The KZbinr constantly uses phrases like "medical staff, the doctors, nurses, DCS" reporting miracles, but when you read the dcs report and the article, the contradictions start showing up. The indystar article claims a nurse named Walker corroborates the wall-walking that happened with the kid and the grandma, but the linked dcs document claims the medical staff in attendance were some unnamed "psychologist's" (see page 4). There was no nurse. (The typo (psychologist's) is a detail, but worth noting) So the first big issue is that the official documents and the reporting corroboration don't line up. That means you aren't evaluating wether the story is true or not, you're evaluating several possible mutually exclusive stories. at least one of the following are true - the journalist lied - nurse walker lied to the journalist - the dcs report lied Another issue is that the dcs document shifts from third to first person. Again, like the typo, it could just be a sloppy public sector worker, but it starts to sound less and less convincing. It's congruent with a forgery or a case worker losing their objectivity. It's also worth nothing that follow-up examination by Joe Nickell shows that witness reports had been misreported by the journalist. Maybe he lies about that of course, or maybe the journalist did? If the journalist is dishonest, the whole thing falls apart. (Asking why a nurse would have incentive to lie about a demon displays a selective scepticism, because it assumes a journalist would never lie about what a nurse said to make a more compelling story. This illustrates why hearsay is bad evidence) i feel like "reported occurrences" is the core here. If you have a child routinely levitating or walking up walls, it becomes increasingly strange that there's no video evidence. Similarly, the oil manifesting in the house would be incredibly easy to document, and you have to wonder why someone who's worried about not being believed decides not to just livestream. It's always reports, never material evidence. In the document linked in the indystar report, you see a recommended step in the investigation is examining carbon dioxide leaks in the house. The reporter decides not to ask what came of that investigation, perhaps because they risk tarnishing a juicy headline.

[@lindseybouldin8906]

I like your shirt

[@Immaustine]

I think the questions you ask are out of the realm of the "scientific method" in it's current standing. The topic of demons and ghost is best handled using the other "method" revelation or faith. Thomas Aquinas highlights the importance of approaching the world with both methods.

[@haydongonzalez-dyer2727]

great topic

[@BryceCarmony]

Love the show Joe, you should do a video on people who claim Jesus was married to Mary Madeleine the Mormons at "ward radio" have a 30 minute video that's a rich example of the view

[@jdotoz]

"The demonic case for Catholicism" sounds like a Chick tract.

[@josephgudge6685]

I once was told by a Protestant brother that the reason most Satanists hate the Catholic Church is because most are ex Catholics. What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? Note: I am not Catholic but have witnessed and taken part in plenty of spiritual battles in which our Lord Jesus Christ has allowed me to partake in/see. The whole reason I am not a Satanist is because at the right time, God the Father sent Jesus to knock on my basement door, changing my life forever.

[@Tstep45_qr]

Catholics should try to encourage scientists and atheists to look into miracles like Lady of Guadalupe, nearly hundreds of Eucharistic miracles and have them give their unbiased conclusion Edit: Gabiafterhours have an amazing documentary on the Lady of Guadalupe where the scientific discovery, symbolic meaning of the painting and it's significance to both the Mexican and Spanish culture is explained (I literally watch that documentary at least once a week 😂😂😂)🙏🙏🙏

[@PabloVelasco-hr3ko]

they have, they find to be true and than bury their reports

[@Tstep45_qr]

@@PabloVelasco-hr3ko very true

[@R.C.425]

It's sad that many Christians don't or won't believe 😢

[@orbeuniversity]

Please provide the time codes.

[@Jesus_loves_you2004]

25:11 CLEAN THE HOME WITH $@&/!%# WHAT💀💀💀💀💀💀 (Mixing bleach and ammonia makes a chemical similar to mustard gas💀😭)

[@angelm.8815]

Are there any thoughts as to why there were many exorcisms in the Biblical New Testament times compared to the present day?

[@damnedmadman]

Pagan worship was ubiquitous at the time, so possession was very likely. Also exorcisms work as signs for people, and the Early Church needed many signs to confirm its credibility and authority, hence so many miracles. But eventually God decreased their frequency so that we may grow the virtue of faith, because "blessed are those who haven't seen and believe".

[@catholic_zoomer_bro]

In the countries where information disseminates really fast with smartphones and cameras, the primary opposition is atheism. So it makes sense demons ignore these countries and go to others, for example.

[@TrixRN]

But if you listen to the Catholic exorcists, they’ll tell you exorcisms have increased dramatically. They don’t have time to assess them all.😳

[@angelm.8815]

@@damnedmadman Could it be that super natural miracles and exorcisms are primarily meant to glorify God and the current day attempts fall short because of a focus on one's personal ability rather than the power and glory of God? As Joe mentions, the authority to do so comes from the Church.

[@donecsedy1222]

Did the police analyze the oil found on the venetian blind?

[@StringofPearls55]

They did. There was a documentary on this I saw a while back. I'm sure you can find it if you look, it was on youtube. I believe, it was olive oil, but I'm not going to swear to it. The police said they had whiped the blinds and removed the oil but that it reappeared as if it had dripped from the ceiling. Of course, the ceiling was fine. I don't know what to think. All I know is if that was happening to me, I'd be sleeping in the pews! Lol

[@cosmokramer3107]

Mindboggling!!!

[@E-pistol]

My precious

[@williamburych2136]

And...that he'll doesn't exist...that all of us will go to Heaven, when we die..."Few there are who find it."...see St. Vincent Ferrer's narratives of how few go to heaven.

[@danceslob6211]

Matthew 7:21-23