The Difference Between Quartertones in Persian, Arabic, and Turkish Music

Learn my little rule when it comes to playing quartertones in different genres of music.
Read the full article here:
www.oudforguita...

[@OudforGuitarists]

New video that goes deeper into this subject: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rojUlGd-e69nqZI

[@helenabasquette7222]

bro its not the music its persoal inturpretarion the odds that anyone plays a peice of music the same is “0”🤔and western music uses 1/8 tones watch some blues guitar players !

[@OudforGuitarists]

@@helenabasquette7222 absolutely.

[@helenabasquette7222]

@@OudforGuitarists ✌️&❤️to you thanks

[@darrylrouch9193]

So even in music, there are "accents" and "dialects." I'm a westerner who likes languages and your videos are great.

[@sanramondublin]

yes there is . i have heard great musician from Spain plying Iranian SeTa'r , I could detect accent, and I am not musician. Also intonation accent.

[@conlangknow8787]

Linguist gang

[@wezzuh2482]

There was even a study that found correlation between the prosody of language and the rythm of its speaker's cultural music

[@claudiakramer4516]

Absolutely there are dialects.

[@marmary5555]

Except Turkish, Persian and Arabic are completely different languages and not "dialects"

[@MultiSciGeek]

I have no idea what I'm watching but this was very interesting.

[@MahdiBanners]

me too lol

[@tolga555]

one year later: haha same

[@gurbeykeskin8256]

What is the exact problem, we could maybe talk anout it. 🤗

[@MontoyaMatrix]

One point to take in is that without frets, the pitches can be bent, so this makes the Oud a sort of "singing" instrument. A "singing" guitar. And scales, well, they are another beast.

[@ioioire4684]

I had no idea about how this was why turkish persian and arabic music sounded so different but im hooked on it now.

[@lloyddegler1898]

I'm still learning a lot about makams, and I don't know how they behave in Persian or Arabic music, but in Turkish music (Ottoman Classical music) the microtonal intervals are often flexible; they can be sharper on the way up and flatter on the way down, in terms of melodic progression. It's easier to tell when listening to a soloist as the intervals are slightly more rigid in ensemble playing. But the most important thing about makams is that they are far more complex than western scales or modes; two different makams can consist of the same notes, but it's their behaviour - the way the melody weaves between notes and what modulations are introduced, among other things - that gives them their "flavour". Really cool that you are trying to give people an easy entry into the territory. But I think it's important to underline that learning makams is a really long-term investment so that people can understand something about the depth involved.

[@OudforGuitarists]

Indeed, you're absolutely right. It's way deeper than this video. I have some newer videos that go into more detail that also deal with the flexibility (tonal gravity) you describe here. There is some flexibility in Arabic music, but tonal gravity is used quite sparingly in Persian music.

[@UliAngola]

Thank you for this clear explanation! I'm quite new to this, but there's a major point that I have learned & that I missed here. In Turkish music, those special intervals or microtones (not really "quartertones") are typically not fixed, but actually depend on what's happening melodically: In an ascending phrase, they would be played "sharper", in a descending phrase, "flatter". For example Ussak based on D: The 2. note (between D# and E) is slightly higher when ascending, slightly lower when descending.

[@OudforGuitarists]

UliAngola yes, Turkish intonation goes much deeper in reality than my video portrays. This video is just to scratch the surface.

[@UliAngola]

Sure, I'll come back here anyway - there's some nice inspiration also for me as a Lavta player :-)

[@achmadsubchan8176]

So, please tell me how many cents the microtonal is, I confused

[@electric7487]

Turkish music theory nowadays is based on 53 tones per octave, while Arabic and (I think) Persian music theory use 24 tones per octave. Though, in reality, there are a lot of fine differences in pitch than meets the eye. 53-EDO is an excellent standardisation of Pythagorean tuning (where every interval is based only on powers of two and three) and has particularly interesting characteristics that seem completely alien to most Western musicians. In 12-EDO, the chromatic semitone (e.g. C to C♯, E to E♯) and diatonic semitone (C to D♭, E to F) are both equal to one step. But in 53-EDO, the chromatic semitone is 5 steps, while the diatonic semitone is 4. So if you start from C, going up 4 steps puts you at D♭, then going up one step gets you C♯, then go up four more steps to get to D.

[@ariansarrafan6665]

@@electric7487hey, awesome information - where can i learn more about this?

[@ctimur]

And BTW, please note that these are not quarter notes but microtonal intervals.

[@OudforGuitarists]

çınar timur That's right. Quarter tones as a term is an over-simplification.

[@mehmedabdulmecidalqahtani5421]

Allah akbar music is haram

[@JinTaoJun]

Wait, how is music haram?

[@doualinjack4158]

çınar timur sure. But lot of westerteeners can’t hear smaller intervals than quatertone.

[@felixgalliou2039]

I think it is not relevant to talk about microTONALITY in the context of a modal music. It would be more appropriate to speak of unequal tempérament

[@davidclarkson3066]

Every time I hear these scales; my Western ears get cross-eyed😬

[@hamza-trabelsi]

i don't know what that means exactly , do you like Orientals scales or dislike them ? xD

[@davidclarkson3066]

Hamza Trabelsi , no I find quarter tone scales interesting, they’re quite hard to play. I fiddled around on a Turkish saz once, and found out that I’ll never going to learn how to play it properly🤣

[@tartanhandbag]

cross-eared, surely?

[@davidclarkson3066]

X4rrr, read again, and now actually read.

[@jonjohns8145]

@@davidclarkson3066 That's OK, It's your Brain .. It's just Not used to hearing that kind of music. It's just Like eating an exotic flavor of food, it tastes weird to you, but is familiar and comforting to someone who grew up with it. 😃

[@truthistruth1965]

You are so talented

[@deniz_ildir]

2nd version is definitely Turkish, to my ears it sounds like listening to a Jannisary band marching. Hard to tell the difference (although theoretically possible) but all these years the "tonal structure" makes a place in your brain.

[@SirJosephSanchez]

I played the two parts of the same song back to back and guessed the second was sharper (turkish) but I am a musician.

[@ariesmp]

I too could immediately tell by the Janissary band instruments.

[@huseyinmollasuleyman6002]

Çok net 2. müdür, haklısın. 5 yıl önceki yanıtını da hortlatayım hadi.

[@karawethan]

Not a huge deal, but technically these are 3/4-tones (larger than a semitone, but smaller than a whole tone), not quartertones. Another way to think about differences in intonation is that the Persian version approximates the interval 13/12, the Arab version approximates the interval 12/11 (which iis exactly what you would get in a 24-tone equal tempered system), and the Turkish version approximates the interval 11/10 (which is not exactly, but fairly close to what you would get in a 53-tone equal tempered system). Not incidentally, theoretical descriptions of Arab and Turkish music assume that the octave is divided into 24 and 53 parts, respectively. To what extent theory reflects practice is another issue.

[@HenJack-vl5cb]

Thank you for explaining it.

[@taylordiclemente5163]

24-tone equal temperament is built of equal quartertones generated by the 24th root of 2. They form irrational numbers, not simple ratios. A 24-tet proportion may resemble an 11/10 quartertone, but it will not be exactly the same.

[@karawethan]

@@taylordiclemente5163 It's 12/11 that is almost a perfect match with 24 tone equal temperament (150.64 vs 150 cents, an imperceptible difference), not 11/10.

[@andsalomoni]

The interesting thing is that in Indian classical music, a very deep modal music system, they use "almost the same" intervals of western music (considering natural intonation, not equal temperament), but each of which has two slightly different intonation shades (except the tonic and the fifth, which are always perfect). "Quarter" tones are completely absent. In fact, Turkish and Arab intervals sound much "weirder" to the western ear than Indian ones.

[@taylordiclemente5163]

@@andsalomoni western music used to use just intonation and modes, too, in the middle ages and renaissance. I study early European music, and the farther back I go in time the closer it brings me to the Middle East and India. It's fascinating.

[@wolframsteindl2712]

You can definitely hear the different characteristics of the different cultures' music from these scales. It's amazing what difference playing the same note slightly flat or sharp can make! The Turkish scale has more major-scale characteristics, while the Persian scale has more minor-scale characteristics, with the Arabic one being in the middle, obviously.

[@OudforGuitarists]

It is just the tip of the iceberg. This video really doesn't do the matter justice. Scan my most recent videos , you'll be able to go a bit deeper.

[@alaindubois1505]

The quality of the second piece made it difficult to focus. I love the Oud sound, and used it's sampled version in a piece, but in a European minor/major [D/G] scale, but later, one phrase ended in a note of 'B', but neither B nor Bb sounded right. So, I really would like to find out what some of the Persian, Arabic, Turkish, and other 'scales' may be useful to blend' into something I'm working on, as if I use an Oud sample, I would like to also recreate a more 'authentic' sound. The main problem is 'blending' European and Middle Eastern - and Indian scales is the difficulty of harmonies or rather harmonic intervals apart from unison and the octave. I wonder if any Middle Eastern scale has, say, a 'perfect fifth' or some different notes from the tempered scales that can sound good together, even in a 'dissonant' jazz kind of way. An example is the 'droning' of the sitar in some Indian pieces.

[@saraswati00]

I've been wondering the same and would love to create some "crossover" music. Have you found any examples by any chance?

[@casadedavid3131]

The second is sharper, sounds almost major.

[@ctimur]

In Turkish music, although in theory Beyati and Ussak have the same microtonal interval on 2nd degree, we play the one in Ussak distinctively flatter than in Beyati.

[@OudforGuitarists]

çınar timur Thanks for pointing this out. This whole video is more of a over-simplification. Even in Persian music, the microtones for certain pitches are different from one Dastgah to another even when called the same note.

[@Muzikman127]

Do you think it's fair to say that the notation used to write down scales from Arabic, Persian and Turkish music (that is to say modified Western notation with quarter tones) is a poor representation of the music? Because when I read posts like this it seems to me that the quarter tone way of writing things doesn't actually represent the reality of the music very well at all.

[@Engges1]

Can you give me the interval both of it ?

[@ferkanmehmetaydogan6323]

Sen türksün dime

[@electric7487]

​@@Muzikman127 The quarter tone way of writing music is only a shorthand. In reality, where exactly the microtonal notes sit varies widely. In 24-EDO, equivalent quarter tones in two different scales or modes will sit at the same level. But 24-EDO is not universally used during performances, and a significant number of musicians still choose to retain the finer microtonal details of the past, where an E half-flat in one mode is slightly different than an E half-flat in another mode.

[@awtari673]

Version 1 is the Arabic .. And the second one is Turkish *_*

[@MoosCode]

that's right

[@clari-net6133]

Good video and thank for playing the Tatyos Efendi version! Armenians were first class composers and musicians in the Ottoman empire!!

[@OudforGuitarists]

Armenians contributed a lot to music even also in Persia. The modern Tar design was perfected by an Armenian luthier.

[@inafern]

I like the turkish one, it sounds the most dissonant not surprisingly.

[@andreaparolini1755]

I think because its closer to the II degree of the scale, pheraps just right in the middle of IIb and II

[@artemis4631]

As a Turkish thank youu

[@munavvarali9278]

Yes

[@ham8654]

By Turkish, you mean Armenian

[@trikebeatstrexnodiff]

@@ham8654 oh f*ck off

[@vanjajaja1]

Amazing that you can play without frets adjusting by quarter tones

[@OudforGuitarists]

Anyone can do it.

[@StevenVillman]

Persian music and Azerbaijani music seems to use the same micro-tones (and the same musical ornaments that involve micro-tones), as they are more choppier in nature than in Arabic music, non-Iranian Kurdish music, Sephardic Jewish and Mizrahi Jewish music, Armenian music, Georgian music, Central Asian musics, Greek music [and much other music from the Balkans (i.e. from the former Yugoslavia, Albania, Bulgaria and Romania)], and Turkish music [as well as in Indian (Hindustani and Kartinak) music, Pakistani music, Afghani (especially Pashtuni) music, Bangladeshi music, Nepali music and Sri Lankan music]. Therefore, Arabic music and Turkish music are more similar to each other than Persian music; and Turkish music and Greek music can be extremely similar to each other, which is depending on the musical genre.

[@cybelekilic7131]

Originated from Byzantium, especially Turkish art music

[@fluxequinox]

Nice explaination! ( btw it's "Carnatic" )

[@iamtherealbatmaniswear]

The arabic tunes tend to be lower, but they don't use the same quartertones as in turkish, iraqi or persian music. Every musical system is different! Turkish music for instance is based on the phytagorean tuning. In arabic music a small wholetone is 165 cents, in turkish it's 180,45 cents (pyth. limma of 90,225 cents x 2) and in Persian (the scales very different and not even maqam but dastgah) it is the "big neutral tone" which is 160 cents. Compared to the western tempered system which is halftone = 100 cents, wholetone = 200 cents. Even within a country from region to region the intonation differs. They don't even have the same maqamat/makamlar. Read "Makamlar: The Musical Scales of Turkey" by Thomas Mikosch. The author compares the scales to other systems and explains the history of them. The maqam Huseyni for instance goes back as far as ancient greece which can be traced back to "Ptolemy's equable diatonic scale" (Michael Hewitt's book on that topic is an eye opener!)

[@navidgoldrick2358]

Z. Guitar Odd thanks for adding this further clarification. I'm more interested in your mention of Dastgah. I am trained in traditional Persian music and I have not yet heard or read definitions of Maqam and Dastgah that suggest they are any different in practical application. In basic reality is they are just terms that mean the same thing, modal system with certain subtle differences.

[@iamtherealbatmaniswear]

Dastgah is very different compared to maqam/makam. First of all the intervals (160 cents for neutral interval compared to 165 in arabic and 185,45 in turkish music for instance and the other intervals are different as well) and the scales too. I have been studying turkish makamlar and arabic maqamat on my own and with many teachers over the last few years. There are many scales that don't exist elsewhere but just in Persia. It is a whole different system compared to the others. Though many maqamat/makamlar have their origin in Persian music. Just like maqam (and the pitch name) Yegah (-gah is persian for position) which means "on the first position". Or maqam Dugah (second position) or maqam Cargah (fourth position). Of course they have scales that are quiet the same though they are different. I am just reading the book by Hormoz Farhat which is very good and I think the only book on persian Dastgah. In persian music are also many scales which don't have an octave, they just go beyond it. But I am just beginning with that myself. All I can say is makam and dastgah is not the same though they share some scales.

[@navidgoldrick2358]

Z. Guitar Odd all that is true. What I'm trying to say is that at a fundamental level, Maqam and Dastgah are comparable systems. For a the audience of this video, who are beginners, this is important to know at first. The subtle distinctions grow as you get deeper of course.

[@iamtherealbatmaniswear]

Sorry, I didn't want to offend anybody. Just to share some information which might be hard to come by. Your videos are great. It's just impossible to find someone who can teach that kind of stuff in english :o), so respect for that. Sorry, didn't want to offend you or other viewers in any way. Great work you do in sharing that information!

[@navidgoldrick2358]

Z. Guitar Odd no offence taken. I really appreciate the time you took to add these comments. For those who are ready for more info, they are invaluable and help clarify a lot. I think we are looking at the same thing from two angles: practice and theory.

[@hooquota]

Good challenge. I also think the 2nd was Turkish - the quarter tones didn't jump out at me like they did in the first - in fact I hardly noticed them.

[@fransiskusjulian9448]

Composing dessert music is the most difficult work for me. Because I didn't know the different, but I can feel it. Sometimes I think: "Wait... It doesn't sounds like Arabic, it's kinda Turkish, but why it's sounds almost like Indian too at the same time"... 😂😂 Now, after I watched this, I completely understand what's wrong with my work. But it's still not an easy task to setting the right tone for the instruments to reach the exact purpose. Especially, I'm not used to with this kind of musics. But later or faster, my ears will learn and get used to with the microtones.

[@SD-ft5xj]

Desert music 💀😭 turkey has no deserts

[@dianahdy6439]

kheili karet ghashange navid jan, and you re totally right! I ve always made the difference between turkish Persian and arab thones but I never knew that this is making the difference

[@alirezaalavi1504]

As a persian,im so happy this was in my recommendeds. Im a fan now

[@joeurbreviewandcopyvids]

Awesome that this info is so accessible to players all across the planet now.

[@therealzilch]

What a great thing to have a video about different kinds of quarter tones! It's nice to get a break from equal temperaments once in a while.... cheers from springy Vienna, Scott

[@desertfox432]

I would bet that the 2nd version is sharper. To my ears the Turkish sound is more metallic and Arabic rounder. Great post Navid.

[@masonmatt2145]

So, I have a question. Like how westerners find quarter-tone, Eastern music off-putting and sometimes, even unnerving, do easterners have a similar opinion about western music? Or is it a different situation?

[@OudforGuitarists]

I think there was a generation which became fascinated by it so much they wanted to conform to Western music. Then later another generation rediscovered the value of modal music in eastern music. So some musicians don't like the limits brought on by using equal temperament instruments and conductors. I don't think it's off-putting when simply listening to music, it's off-putting when trying to perform and arrange with Western music and Western instruments in some scenarios.

[@titanrodickable]

Having spoken to and participated in Western orchestras as well as instruments from the Middle Easr, India and Japan, I feel that I can answer. Some people, usually older folks, will claim that they simply can't understand Western classical music because their particular tradition is based on a single melodic line. But, nobody these can deny that they're used to hearing it in TV or movies because it's pervasive in entertainment since the 1960's or so. (Mainly, I have heard this most from older Indian folks.) There are many people in many parts of the world these days that want their traditional systems to embrace polyphony within their own traditional music systems. I have heard this mostly from Arab and Turkish people. it will be very interesting in about 200 years to see/hear how that turns out and what they come up with. ..........

[@OudforGuitarists]

@@titanrodickable fascinating...

[@RazanIsMe]

Actually It sounds too simple for someone who only listens to Eastern music😅😅😅

[@gabircik]

no. Western music to me is like a properly prepared food with basic taste. not bad but there are no surprises nor extravagance (except for when I listen to JS Bach). what annoys me is not that music itself but rather the fact that it's everywhere. there's no escape from it.

[@behappy75003]

Real name is Barbat from Iranian language. When the Arabs saw it, during their Islamic invasion they called it Oud, as it's made from wood. All instruments related to Tar. The word (Tar) means "string" Guitar, Setar, etc... come from Iranian language. Even the word #Music originated from Iranian language. It's just for information. No racism or nationalism,. We are all earth's children.. ..

[@hy4630]

The barbat originated in the 1500 BC so in fact what you are saying is not a fact ! its a theory or assumption that is not backed entirely

[@Abdoabdo-ix7ds]

no the semitic peoples invented it it is bablonian and the arab are son of the mesopetimian so it is semitic we as a semitic invented it befor you and then com to persian 😄😄😄😄😄

[@hazemdarwish8089]

there is no "iranian" language... it's persish... if you even knew a bit! the word music is of greek origins... and just to prove you dump... music it self is as old as civilization... where as the word "music" is only there since the greek... no there is no point in trying to claim the world... are you very excited about music? go make us wonders... as far as i know the European excelled in concerts and classical music... where you "Iranian" still play the same melody since 500 years! Arabs and Turkish too! a righteous man from the middle east

[@antonsubbotin8810]

The challenge: The first is Turkish and the second is Arabic

[@JohnJE123]

No...I'm pretty sure the first was Arabic and the second Turkish.

[@barinasr6806]

You are wrong

[@JohnJE123]

@@barinasr6806 Who's wrong? Anton or me? LOL

[@world_musician]

does the placement of the frets for these quarter tones differ between Persian Tar and Turkish Tanbur?

[@Sonofshadow]

The first one is the sharper one. As a jazzer I have always wondered about quarter tones.

[@armanbesler8253]

The real specialty of the Turkish maqam system MIGHT be that certain keys in certain maqams -- such as the Segah key in the maqam Uşşak -- VARY (i.e. gets microtonally sharper or flatter) within one and the same piece, depending on whether one is moving "upwards" or "downwards" in the scale. (I don't know whether the same is true of the other two systems.)

[@anashannachi-pw1ze]

Can you givr us names of the most important singers in iranian music history because i don't know a lot about persian music

[@iyok050106]

3:13 the arabic licc

[@ariesmp]

I'm not a musician, but I'm guessing that Balkan music does with even sharper tones?

[@charlieyarak]

2nd sounded like a major scale therefore Turkish.

[@davidclarkson3066]

Version 2 has the sharper quarter tones, in fact, they almost sounded like half tones. Much too easy😊

[@jonathangoldrick8279]

The Turkish one is less strange for the western ear. Probably because of Turkey's geographical closeness to Europe so the 2nd degree is closer to that of a Major scale

[@OudforGuitarists]

A fellow Goldrick, welcome!

[@aliihsanusta-arsiv5235]

Not about geographical closeness. In the other maqams there are different komas. It's just in Uşşak.

[@spacetaco048]

I heard about this is my world music class in college, that music has different amount of notes between 'c's but I had absolutely no idea this was how it was or that it was this cool

[@OudforGuitarists]

It's a whole new world

[@yanniszacharopoulos4939]

all this talk for one cuaRTER :) what a joke !!!!!

[@djameleddinefenni3148]

The 2nd one reminds me of Algerian music that uses no quarter tone

[@sepehrn2914]

Well done my guy The way you said abu ata was so persian😂 so damet garm khaste nabashi

[@شموخرجل-ع6ب]

I like the oud

[@neilpatrickolaires7471]

3:14 Adam NEELY???

[@OudforGuitarists]

lol, sorry I have no idea

[@thuanlaitran5371]

The licc ahaha

[@musichong]

Are you an Iranian-American? I have a question about oud making, are they also different between them?

[@OudforGuitarists]

I'm Iranian-Canadian. Yes, Iranian Ouds have their own style, craftsmanship and sound. A little different, but you can play any Arabic music on Iranian Ouds.

[@ahhdodbegyd]

I'm Persian the second one sounded more Persian to me

[@ohlalafrance9570]

I could not here a difference 🥺

[@KKoKoRR]

But there isn't only one makam/scale on Turkish classical music. There are 72 different makams: look at those things :) lol Acem (müzik), Acemaşiran, Acembûselik, Acemkürdî, Araban (makam), Arabankürdi, Arazbar, Arazbarbûselik, *Bayati, Bayatiaraban, Bayatibûselik,* Bûselik, Bûselikaşîran, Dilkeşhâveran, Dilkeşide, Dügah, Evcara, Eviç, Ferahfeza, Ferahnak, Ferahnakaşiran, Gerdaniye, Gerdâniyebûselik, Hicaz (müzik), Hicaz Hümâyun, Hicazbûselik, Hicazkâr, Hisar (makam), Hisarbûselik, Hisâr-Evc Hümâyun, Hüseyniaşiran, Hüseynî, Hüzzam, Irak (makam), Isfahan (makam), Kürdilihicazkâr, Kürdî, Mahurbûselik, Muhayyer, Muhayyerbûselik, Muhayyerkürdi, Mâhur, Müstear'lı Hicaz, Müstear'lı Nikriz, Neva, Nevabûselik, Nevakürdi, Neveser, Nihavend, Nikriz, Nişaburek, Nühüft, Pençgah, Rast (makam), Sabâ (makam), Sazkar, Segâh, Sultanihüzzam, Sultaniyegah, Suzidil, Suzidilara, Tahir (müzik), Tâhirbûselik, *Uşşak,* Yegah, Zirgüle'li Pençgâh, Çargah, Şedaraban, Şehnaz, Şehnâzbûselik, Şevkefza (makam)

[@OlegSpb2008]

is there any book on internet to learn turkish music, scales?

[@ustadspencertracy7195]

There are more than 400 maqams recorded in Turkish music.

[@prodbykadri8996]

That's why I'm playing quarter tones on my synthesizer with the pitch bend. You can use the Arabic Scala settings but with the pitch bend it sounds more real. It take time to learn it but it let you're virtual instruments sound real.

[@EpinephrineFM]

True dat. I find it lets those notes breathe a bit more and allows them to be beautiful in their passing nature. I use a Korg MinilogueXD and you can tune the keyboard to whatever you need, but I find it still often grating. Those notes need to wiggle a bit, hence your method indeed being indispensably useful. It's just a son of a bitch to get the hang of..

[@johnjakubowski2304]

Version 1 flat version 2 sharp

[@abejones9218]

anyone know where i can get traditional Turkish, Arabian, or Persian MIDI files? they seem very hard to find

[@rotum1324]

3:14 i declare this to be „the lick“

[@erich1394]

Any listening recommendations for learning / getting my brain to understand quarter tones? I couldn't even hear the difference between the Persian and Arabic quarter flat note. I've been a musician for years but I just never been trained to find meaning in that level of pitch granularity, you know?

[@AlexandrosT1]

I think if you listen to this music a lot you will eventually get used to understanding these differences. I guess the best step is firstly find a music style that you like from different regions. Then try to understand/ sing along. It would help if you have a fretless/multifret instrument like oud or/lavta, tanbur.

[@sethie_shots]

Second version is sharper…I think

[@hayots_lernashkharh]

Did you know that Tatyos Efendi was Armenian. His real name was Kemani Tatyos Eskerdjian.

[@OudforGuitarists]

Indeed. Armenians seem to show up historically in several places in regards to music. Unfortunately their ethnicity gets forgotten sometimes. I think it's the same for Kurdish people too.

[@Wandelbart]

Alois Hába has brought me here ;-) Thanks a lot for the explainations! Does Kurdish music have an own quartertone scale or does it depend on the region?

[@ADOONKIIRAXMAN]

talk about somali quarter tones

[@mohammadkeykha1984]

Words are Persian as the roots are Persian like maqam which meams position and bayat which is beyad ( in memory of ) nahavand which is a city in iran ...etc

[@OudforGuitarists]

Ooh interesting. I have heard some theories about bayat being Turkish origin or arabic but beyaad I've never heard.

[@ДмитрийБаженов-ш6т]

Second doesn’t sound microtonal, sounds more like D mixolydian

[@Madjed2024]

First time lower quarter tone

[@romeodan3889]

Version 1 flatter

[@TheCALMInstitute]

Perhaps each group had slightly different sized fingers or fingernails.

[@OudforGuitarists]

🤭

[@gurbeykeskin8256]

I want to mention that there is a significant difference between Ussak and Beyati makams in their appearance in the songs. Ussak appears with a RISING scale, Beyati appears with a falling-rising scale. Since the scale of each of the both makams is the same, starting from La (dügah) to La (Muhayyer), the difference in this makams will only appear in a written song.

[@creampuff966]

This sounds interesting, what do you mean by falling-rising scale? Also could you link some examples?

[@gurbeykeskin8256]

​@@creampuff966 I am not sure if it is significant for this video because he actually just points out that the quartertone is played a little different in different cultures. But when you do the start of a taksim (his turkish example), there you can not refer to both makams. There is a significant difference in the melodical development, expecially when you start a taksim. In the Ottoman music system which is thought in turkey there is a significant characteristic of a makam which is called the melodical development. The makam is incomplete with just its specific scale. With rising and falling I just used the wrong words because I struggled to translate it from the turkish language. I just found out that a turkish master translated it in a better way. He says Ascending and Descending. I highly recomment to watch the Videos from the 90´ies of Oud Master and Composer Cinucen Tanrikorur, when he gave seminars in the USA. There he explaines the differences between the 4 makams Ussak, Beyati, Isfahan, Acem which actually use the exact same scale.

[@Sugarsail1]

Well I shouldn't be surprised that a bunch of mid-East cultures can't agree on what music notes to use, they can't seem to agree on anything else either.

[@OudforGuitarists]

LOL! Good one. But on a serious note (no pun intended), it's about taste and preference and art. Do we tell cooks to standardize what spices to use in all their dishes? Do we tell artists to use all the same colors?

[@brendanlee5018]

2 was Turkish I think. The microtones didn't sound as out-standing in the second one compared to the first. They sounded closer the semitones, or they were "sharper" to my ear.

[@flymilo904]

Arabic one has a better flow

[@clari-net6133]

Number 1 was Turkish and 2?

[@theamadioha5422]

Damn my man, you could be making it all up and we wouldn't even know, love it though

[@OudforGuitarists]

Sounds like it's time to go deeper and verify some of these things I'm saying. This is a very generalistic video meant to get your feet wet with the idea of different intonation.

[@MusicTeacherGuyNorristown]

I think the second one is sharper, but I can't really tell.

[@Bushchannel]

Hello there!! I’m wondering where one would find a good source of Middle Eastern music that’s royalty free and okay to use on videos?

[@MahdiBanners]

extremely hard to notice these differences.

[@OudforGuitarists]

That's true.

[@baqarhasan9743]

Version one is flatter

[@AliAminizadeh-i7l]

version 2 is sharper

[@RoyalDisplay]

I think it's not fair that at the end of the video you play just two songs for a challenge, namely first Arabic and second one certainly Turkish.... but where is Persian? Why not Persian? *sigh*

[@OudforGuitarists]

RoyalDisplay I wanted to show the exact same composition demonstrated with different tonality. It's not possible to find this same composition played with Persian tonality unless I played it myself.

[@KlausM]

Nice video. The quartones also differ between makams. For Rast makam it is e.g. higher than Ussak. It is therefore the Turkish tanbur got very many frets.

[@OudforGuitarists]

Yep!

[@KlausM]

@@OudforGuitarists You forgot to mention the highest quartertone, which is the Greek. It is so high that it is a whole tone. Therefore they claim to be playing Rast on a Bouzouki or guitar. kzbin.info/www/bejne/gmq3nZJqm8qeeqs I think this is quite funny (or sad).

[@AscensionGuitar]

2nd is Turkish

[@onesyphorus]

🙂💭My ancestors

[@davidmalka2184]

the correct term is Iranian not persian

[@OudforGuitarists]

That's a big debate actually... Iranians/Persians like myself either side one way or another on it. Me, I don't care.

[@harunakca6319]

Notalar tamam

[@ud-]

I hope you teach us the turkish way to play oud

[@MultiSciGeek]

I still don't understand this, but I can say that the Arabic one sounds the best, the Persian one sounds acceptable/good, and the Turkish one sounds off.

[@OudforGuitarists]

Thanks for coming back to this video and commenting again after so long. Think of it in terms of different hues in the spectrum of colors. Let's take red for example, you can have a dull red, a full red, and an extra bright red. I think of pitch that way too. B natural sounds bright whereas B quarter flat sounds sour. Neither is better or worse just different and have different uses.

[@chicuongvu1806]

It might just be his playing as this is fretless and there might be mistake but the sound do sometimes sound off cause we arent useed to thêsse exotic scale

[@AliAminizadeh-i7l]

version 2

[@pcb8059]

if anybody has good you tube sources, from a western guitarist perspective, for a 50 yo western 12 string fingerpicker giving up on boring 4/4 and western music to pursue Eastern sounding, 3/4 and 6/8 fingerpicking, please let me know, thanks!

[@brianwredfern]

Thank you for these amazing videos this is a terrific resource for the whole world!

[@oreotuylubamya6297]

the second one is sharper

[@teresacastillo4959]

This is so interesting I love it! I'm watching this for my music theory class in California. My answers for version 1: I think is using flatter quarter tones and version 2: sounds sharper than version 1. Don't know if I'm right. :)

[@sethie_shots]

That was my guess too 👍🏼

[@alemspahovic4126]

I'll need all of different maqams and scales of existed from both turkish and arabic from this video samai rast by tatyos efendi and their sheet music with own repetoires to get an answer :sharp or flat ???!!! Find KoKoR gelir post here he did...

[@alemspahovic4126]

04:12

[@alemspahovic4126]

To always indentify a maqam you'll need do scales first, then get all worldwide east and west or north and south via continent individual countries [Mythology and modern] to put them on fight against each other; after comes the reverse parts to apply of what is exactly eastern or western category list... And summary work shall automaticilly sorted of getting flat or sharps !!!

[@alemspahovic4126]

Sorry about too much re-editings, but you get general idea... !

[@ezinafauda4394]

Cute guy. 😅

[@neireez]

verion2❤

[@cmyk8964]

I’m here because I had the question “Why is that Nokia ringtone tuned like that?” and I’m not sure if I’m getting any closer to my answer.

[@OudforGuitarists]

You'll have to provide a link so I can hear this ringtone you're referring to. I think I know what you're referring to but I haven't heard it in a long time.

[@cmyk8964]

@@OudforGuitarists kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y6aki5d_f66fbtE

[@ShiftingDrifter]

Since the second version had poor audio (and my brain is so heavily tuned to the western scale), I was unable to distinguish the difference. I lived in Turkey over 10 years and as a musician from the US I was captivated so much i bought an Ud while living in Ankara and learned from Turkish friends; nevertheless, I was often puzzled buy the nuances and found even the simplest songs were hard play the same way twice.

[@OudforGuitarists]

It just takes some practice with the right guide and you'll be able to hear and play the microtones.

[@mallemehryar9965]

@@OudforGuitarists Persian, Azerbaijani, and Turkish music are parts of my daily nourishment. I have a deep connection with Persian music but listen to Azerbaijani songs too cheer me up. When Dastgah-e Homayoun falls in the hands of Azeri musicians it turns into a cheerful melody😊than when is played by Persian music players. I could readily make distinction between the first version in Arabic and the second in Turkish Analoty. However, there are muguam in Azerbiajnai music that I am uncertain to pair it with mugums in Persian music such as Shekasteh Fars, which comes close to Mahour, but not exactly and Nava doesn’t sound a perfect match either. I request comparison of Mugams. I pasted the link below. Thank you for the video. It refreshes my old time music lessons. kzbin.info/www/bejne/o4aqqmujlteIZsU

[@BadassBikerOwns]

On an unrelated topic, Abu-Ata sounds similar to Sindhu Bhairavi raga in Indian Carnatic music.

[@thebookkeeper0851]

What about Greek quartertones?

[@OudforGuitarists]

Link me a Greek song that uses quarter tones.

[@andygrove285]

Thanks very much for this, it's very interesting. I just bend notes on the guitar to suit how I feel, and most of the time not to any kind of scale or mode. There is a beautiful flexibility to some instruments, even guitar, let alone Oud that allows a superb level of expression. Saying that, I know a very well respected classical pianist, she is a true master of piano. That instrument is very limited in comparison to a stringed instrument like violin, guitar or oud. Yet, somehow, she can pull magic from it. kzbin.info/www/bejne/m3_Yq5-wjreBe68 I was involved as a producer on that recording, and, frankly I was taken aback by not only her ability, but also her understanding of music itself. As a guitarist, bending notes to somewhere that is outside of Western music is something I do all the time, to give a flavour or feeling. Thing is, although it's not possible to bend on a piano, there are other ways to express. So respect to Edna, and to all musicians.

[@ivyssauro123]

The second seems sharper but the audio is really bad so IDK lol

[@AmirBehnejad]

به به،کوک Abu ata ایرانی را عالی اجرا کردی،عالی بود برادر👌👌💚💚🌺🌷

[@pianodudeler]

2 sounded sharper to this novice.

[@OudforGuitarists]

Correct.

[@nikko97144]

Is there any way I can find the recordings you used for the challenge in the end of the video? Greetings from cold Norway 🥶

[@mombooze]

What's the aoliean equivalent

[@OudforGuitarists]

Generally, it's called nihavend, or nahawand.

[@JehsUay-wr1co]

I wonder if quarter tone existed in some parts of Europe at some stage of history

[@OudforGuitarists]

Maybe. But if not quarter tones, unequal micro tones did exist.

[@cuckmulligan7602]

@@OudforGuitarists Farya Faraji has several videos on this