The Disturbing Lizzi Marriott Affair

Elizabeth "Lizzi" Marriott was excited to be attending the University of New Hampshire, she was excited for what was to come. However, when she went to a friend's house to watch a film, she would meet two people, and one monster.
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[@NotThatDeep]

How did all these ppl just either watch this occur or look at the dead body and not do or say anything? The level of evil that just casually exists, is appalling.

[@It-is-me...Melsie]

I hear you! I don't get that at all.

[@terribongers2465]

Yes, Very disturbing.

[@Nostalgic_1]

I agree. I would have left and immediately called the police.

[@alexandracorbo4681]

Agree 100% with this comment

[@gordonaliasme1104]

They are complicit. Disgusting.

[@paulandrews7622]

Kat was as guilty as hell. Blubbing like a baby, without actually shedding a single tear. Three years for participating in brutal murder, is beyond a joke.

[@thehorsecockexpress1068]

She's a woman, it's known they get far less punishment for the same crimes men commit

[@rhyssanders9122]

@@thehorsecockexpress1068 word

[@charlottewyttle1578]

@@thehorsecockexpress1068 I agree as a woman,and it’s disgusting. Notice how feminists never fight for equal accountability!

[@AspireGMD]

@@thehorsecockexpress1068 Exactly, the gender gap in sentencing is actually an entire 6x greater than the race gap (between white and black people.) It's insane how the race gap is the only one that's acknowledged, despite men of all races facing far worse sentences than women of all races, wild.

[@amybe573]

Right! After telling, under oath, 2 or 3 different stories on the stand, too! 🤯 '...but I wasn't telling the truth before, the truth I swore to tell before I bullshitted all of you. Maybe I even swore to a couple other things I promised were true but SO WHAT?? I'm telling the truth now, why don't you people believe me??' 🙄

[@cococalypso9890]

I like how she got called out for fake crying. She's just as guilty as he is..

[@supergooner7581]

When the solicitor says " Do you cry without tears" absolute golden comment.Her fakeness is infuriating.She's really enjoying the whole process.

[@BalboaBaggins]

Female privilege.

[@LifesPeachy321]

@@chynawyatt4068 OMG You're comment is priceless! Why these woman get away with so much is beyond me. 3 years that's BS! Her stupid faces while on the stand made me want to vomit!

[@vanndiggity]

Yeah she should have been sentenced to life

[@Safiyahalishah]

Sometimes I actually full-on bawl without tears, but the difference is that my face swells up like I've been savaged by bees. Kat didn't look physically affected at all.

[@rikkiwazzerman3654]

@@LifesPeachy321 I agree. I believe without a body the case may have not gone to court. I believe that they needed Kat to send this "Thing" to prison. But 3 years is not enough even if she is part "Victim" She should have served at least 10 years. If not more...

[@caidyc]

Isn’t this like the 4th or 5th story centered on theatre geeks? As an unproud owner of a theatre degree from the University of Somewhere I can attest that the freak ratio is off the charts. Which is why I work in IT now. Where the weirdos are defined by the amount of Action figures on their desk alerting you to their level of harmlessness. But keep em coming! It validates my life choice.

[@SC.......]

Try being a massage therapist. Freak show ratio is probably the same. I almost quit school bc of it.

[@PiXie232]

Both of my cousins have degrees in theatre, and I had thought about going into long ago.. but after watching them, and knowing them and seeing exactly what you’re talking about- I decided to turn my attention to microbiology. Muchhh better;)

[@dae4444]

I was thinking the same thing! Very strange n murderous people in those theaters

[@pantsedjuniorhayseed4816]

Murderous nerds

[@contentinmotion]

They act a lot about murdering people. They get obsessed about doing it in real life to experience how it feels.

[@dsj80]

Kat wasn't a victim, she was a willing participant who played the victim card and turned on the water works to get less time. I think she should have had to do 20 years minimum.

[@deborahharris8316]

There were no water works. She couldn't even cry. She was a willing participant.

[@ktreznin5538]

There was no water.

[@kieraethan]

She turned on the audio but not the liquid of the water works: not one tear escaped.

[@joe18425]

First to squeal gets the deal 👁👄👁🍿🍿

[@salliegallegos918]

@@kieraethan Like AH.

[@L91168]

How do you see a dead body at a friends place and not call the police? Roberta and Paul should be charged too

[@deannajan25]

and knowing how long they were looking for her and not coming forward.

[@steelwheels327]

Agreed!! accomplices in my book

[@slopeskater7]

Freal freal!!! I was like "now who tf are you guys" when they got introduced to the story. How you jus gonna see some shit like that and not call the cops ASAP, no rocky?????

[@klausfiedler64]

Agreed! Accessories after the fact. Perhaps actionable proof was in short supply, but I don't think anyone is asking for a hanging. A hefty fine and give them the choice whether to shell out massive legal fees to fight it. Some incentive to become reacquainted with the concept of decency.

[@MomentsInTrading]

Charged with what? It’s not a legal requirement to report a crime. It’s disgusting. They’re disgusting. But it’s not illegal.

[@karmalibra4355]

"Jackass of all trades" had me dying. 😂🤣

[@jayquelyn8407]

There's nothing that pisses me off more than when the killers say sorry for your loss to the family of their victim they murdered. Like wtf.

[@daviddaddy]

It irritates me too! Because it's always insincere! I feel the only reason they do it is for show. To show the Jury and Judge, that they are "Truly Sorry and would take it back if they could blah blah blah more lies!" we all know it's lies!!! It's so easy! to see through their bs and lies.

[@cathybassett6432]

Yeah - And he told them where he left her body. He threw her off a cliff into the ocean.

[@gigicolada]

“I know what they’re going through” angered me so much.

[@nia4842]

I can't believe Kat only received three years. SHE is the reason she was there. She should've been punished just as harsh as he was.

[@kelly2fly]

plea deal

[@darthcrowley5561]

Women never does, that's today's equality

[@MrJest2]

I have to be honest - if someone murdered my loved one, prison is the only place they'd be safe. Once released...

[@laurenmcrobie8]

Hoping someone in prison feels the same!

[@dawnsully88]

That's just so sad. She was so fake. She should of gotten more time

[@tuckersdadnb]

Kat was more involved than she is portraying. Complete bs she got a deal. This is what is wrong with the justice system

[@lachlanstanding7386]

They didn't have a body, so they couldn't prove rape, they couldn't prove premeditation, they couldn't even prove intentional murder if they both stuck to their stories. They both would have had a good chance at a light sentence, failing some other evidence showing up. It is the classic prisoner's dilemma.

[@ja195]

No body probably we're afraid they both could walk

[@mrd3016]

@@ja195 we get that, but if they offered her ten years, she would've taken it afraid of 20 to life.

[@It-is-me...Melsie]

@@mrd3016 That's my issue too. I get that they needed to offer her a plea deal, but three years to someone that is just as culpable as the nasty freakish boyfriend is appallingly short.

[@ja195]

@@mrd3016 they offered it to her attorney and he's a trained professional he probably knew what the circumstances were and negotiated most likely

[@hsatin20]

Listening to Kat cry during the trial is like listening to a 10 year old cry just because they know they are in trouble and trying to play the sympathy card

[@TkKirklandReal]

That's how white women send black men to jail

[@curtislavallee8444]

I was totally waiting for her to say"And my dog stepped on a bee" with all those fake tears,lol

[@lynnhoffman247]

🤣

[@Julia-uh4li]

😆😆😆 I'm coming back tomorrow & I sure as heck expect to see at least a hundred more likes. That was funny as hell. Good one 👍🔥

[@shellydesormier4646]

I’m really sick of these killers getting plea deals and fake crying on the stand. If I saw that in the courtroom I would laugh my ass off and call BULLSHIT! Thank you Mike, for your commitment to these crazy stories. ☮️💟

[@baumer2504]

THANK YOU, ME TOO!

[@archangelgabriel5316]

Amber heard showed us a lot.

[@monicawhite6913]

Batch is guilty as sin she set that poor girl up she could've stop the whole thing

[@DystopianUtopia8]

If I was the victims father, I'd be counting the days down to her release.

[@Oraerilla]

@@monicawhite6913 “you often cry wi hour tears “ “sometimes” she’s a horrible actress

[@jeanneganrude8549]

“Okie dokie”. Just by reading Lizzi’s innocent goofy words in her text shows how she was way out of her league when she was heading over to hang with new friends. Her excitement is obvious. A fun new friend from work. Just thinking about what happened to Lizzi once her expectations were crushed breaks my heart. 💔

[@lisahinton9682]

Her innocence in the way she texted, such as "okey dokey" just showed what a sweet and kind young lady she was. And that pic of her holding the frog, ever-so-gently, oh, my heart breaks for her family. You can see her soul in her eyes in that photo and she was a wonderful person. I am hoping her family and friends somehow have found peace.

[@s0lastsummer7]

That photo EERILY reminds me so much of the photo of Gabby Petito, holding a crocheted little pumpkin. 😕

[@michelledavis6399]

You’re spot on! A true loss of a beautiful life.

[@jefflyon2020]

Your observations and comments are honest and so amazing...When a person's life is lost it saddens me and comments like this are rare and shows mike is doing something right.

[@krispeterson1021]

Right..... she is not intouch with reality.....

[@star-q7n]

DAWWWW

[@evac3928]

Kat’s testimony is that her friend let out a little noise then fell over dead. BS. People fight and struggle when being strangled. She helped, in some fashion.

[@Rebecca-br2mw]

Agreed. It also takes a decent amount of time to kill someone via strangulation. I also think it's likely Lizzi was assaulted while alive, Seth having assistance from Kat to keep control. Her claim that Lizzi was sexually assaulted once dead allows Kat to wiggle out of playing a role of physicality, because no one needs help controlling a corpse. Kat just was too cowardly to own up to her full responsibility - a 3 year deal was too generous.

[@meluckycharms111]

Good point. How did anyone buy that? What a crappy prosecutor

[@bronsontolliver9027]

Takes about 5 minutes without oxygen for brain death to begin. Whoever had her by the neck had to hold on for well after she lost consciousness.

[@dea557]

Love her fake crying for a few mins with 0 tears tho 🥰

[@dhoffnun]

That crying looked disquietingly familiar with laughter.

[@TheGamersState]

Yeah no, Kat wasn't a victim, she was just trying to play the victim card so she could escape the justice system and sadly that's exactly what she did. 3 years is a disgrace, shame on her.

[@OAlem]

The worst part is if only anyone had talked sooner, including the 2 friends who saw the body, it might have been found before the currents took it away.

[@wkcave]

Shame on only her??? Shame on the system as well that gave her only 3 years and then set her free

[@WobblesandBean]

Of course it was an age gap relationship. In a sense I get why, older predators like him go after barely legal women like Kat cuz they're malleable. If not for Seth, there's no doubt in my mind that Kat would have never done something like this. But it's clear that she played a big role in Lizzi's death, and her sentence was a joke.

[@WobblesandBean]

@@OAlem I'm appalled that the "friends" weren't indicted. They saw a corpse, they knew Seth killed her, and they just...walked away. I want to know why they aren't in prison right now.

[@TheGamersState]

@@wkcave I didn't say "only her" but...aight.

[@robertrazo4330]

I’m stuck on the people that came over and saw the dead body and just said, “you need to call the cops”. Hell with that, I’ll call NOW!! What’s wrong with them? 👹👺

[@katiejensen5547]

I think people don't want to get involved with the murder at all

[@Unfluencer]

they should both be in jail too.

[@dannacollins2520]

Accessory to murder, both.

[@p.shermanfortytwowallabyla9488]

It what happens when's low people for a community around themselves. Socially off and none too bright leaves a lot of hunting grounds for selfish predators like Seth

[@laurenbogans357]

​@@dannacollins2520oh hush

[@inkheart181]

This story gives me strong Paul & Karla vibes. I feel like Kat was more in on it than she let on.

[@marymartindale884]

I agree

[@deannajan25]

Totally and are there other victims out there that are not known about?

[@jaxsmith1204]

She was performing for the attention of a man and had no problem killing another woman to impress him and be his "favorite". In fact, killing the victim most likely helped relieve her jealousy that her man craved other women sexually. This is why "pick me"s are as dangerous as they are pathetic.

[@leahoakwood9988]

BINGO!

[@khaightlynn]

And karla got off easy too. Shame

[@xlnuniex]

It’s so sad and f-ed up that Lizzie’s “friends”not only killed her, but dumped her body in the ocean, which has never been found. My heart goes out to the Marriott Family

[@WobblesandBean]

I'm disgusted by her "friends" and I'm enraged that they're not rotting in prison right now.

[@Triumph-nz8pt]

@@WobblesandBean I agree, that woman just sat there unfazed as she is describing a "dead body"... I am disgusted beyond words.

[@ashleyramirez1918]

@@Triumph-nz8pt a

[@liligh]

How to ruin a video by giving all the plot points. Good job Lauren ;)

[@grumpy1504]

Sounds like Natalie Holloway and the POS Joran Van Der Sloot.

[@oliviasutherland4366]

Kat’s testimony twisted my stomach. She deserved way more than 3 years

[@nhmooytis7058]

They both should have got the needle.

[@Leidyloveslibros]

Not a single tear was shed. Terrible actress

[@WakeyWakeyEggsandBakey]

Yep awful acting. Perhaps on par with Amber Heard. Not a single tear just jarring ear shredding screeching. It's gross and disgusting when people get deals like this. She should've got a deal that gave her 20 years rather than life. That's about as much of a deal as she should've got. I agree kat was a victim but its also possible to be guilty as well as being a victim.

[@kayleigh3648]

Yup! The fact that she stayed with him after seeing him murder someone tells it all. Any normal human wouldn’t stay in a relationship with a killer. She acts like she’s a victim and was ‘forced to stay with him in fear for her life’, as if she couldn’t of waited for him to go to work so she can pack her shit and leave. I’ve watched a lot of true crime and sooo many women like her who are complicit always claim they ‘couldn’t leave for fear of their life’. Like bruh, they have to leave the house eventually. You may need a few days or weeks, but there’s no excuses to be dating a killer. And she also had the opportunity to turn him in when questioned but nope! She lied for his ass! 3 years is nothing. Ugghhh!!! 😤

[@dontmindme633]

@@kayleigh3648 I think she was a lot more involved than her story would have you believe.

[@RainbowPyramid]

Crying with no tears! I don't believe Kat... those friends who saw her ... how did they not call police? How did they not go to jail for o ignoring a murder???

[@mattjack3983]

They should have BOTH gotten a LIFE sentence. Kat getting 3 years is a complete lack of any real justice.

[@stubbs-letterpress]

They needed her testimony. She was a first hand witness. Those other people who showed up weren't saying anything as far as I know.

[@magallanesagustin4952]

@@stubbs-letterpress I get that they needed a deal, but still, why such a light sentence?

[@LeslieJMarshall]

@@magallanesagustin4952 her lawyers would have taken 10 years.

[@jackchop1576]

New England states are notoriously lax when it comes to sentencing women. There's one in my area who only got 6-20 years for bashing her infant's head into the floor and is out already.

[@edborrelli2786]

@@jackchop1576 that is absolutely one of the worst things someone can do, our justice systems makes zero sense sometimes.

[@lisamichele4152]

"Isn't prison the ultimate bondage" - loved that.

[@BlazingPhoenix05]

And I hope Seth loves having stuff shoved up his whooo haa (arse)😆 he deserves that life sentence...

[@klausfiedler64]

Very good, but isn't a slow hanging the real ultimate bondage.

[@yakikadafi745]

yeah bubba is gonna take his little hole till it bleeds then sell him for some cup ramen noodles so the next 300 pound black guy can run through him

[@Triumph-nz8pt]

@@klausfiedler64 true, but not enough suffering for this piece of crap. I'd rather him have a girlfriend named Bubba (as the saying goes) for the rest of his days.

[@SC.......]

😂🤣😂

[@lovingmayberry307]

RIP Lizzie 💙🙏 3 year sentence for Kat was not long enough. She CHOSE to go along with that POS.

[@-redacted_by_youtube]

Sad part is in n.h. she either got a 1 or 1 and a half to 3. The better option would have been 3 to 6. But I doubt it. So if she got the 1 to 1 and a half she would be out in that time. On parole for the remainder.

[@MarioGoatse]

This case reminds me of so many cases. The Slavemaster case. The Mark Twitchell case. The Brittany Kilgore case. The Daniel Wozniak case. Just the mixture of BDSM and theatre I guess, but it’s come up so many times I feel.

[@lasmujeresnotienenpollAs]

She is somewhere among us, free to live her life. She was struggling so hard not to smile while on the stand. Creepy af, no genuine remorse. She was giddy to commit the crime and equally gleeful recounting it in court. Truly terrifying

[@808Fee]

I agree. Fake crying, no grieve muscle... dodgy af.

[@808Fee]

@@MarioGoatse Guess there is a reason why I dislike both. No kink or theater shaming here, just not for me. 😂

[@evilnewenglandqueen4525]

I was born and raised in Dover. I worked at Wentworth Douglas hospital when Lizzy went missing. My coworkers and I were so hopeful that poor Lizzy would be found alive. We held her in our hearts like one of our own children 💔😞

[@keithdevlin1]

Kat: "We also have a cat." *Cat: "I have seen some terrible things."* 🐱😭

[@julieroberts4847]

That is puuuuurfect 😹😹😹

[@kerryberman609]

Yep

[@syntext]

This happened my senior year of school when I was at UNH. All of the papers put so much emphasis on the possibility of it being an accident that she had consented to that I don't think any of us were given the ability to be properly concerned or to grieve her loss the way she deserved. If we had known half of the facts that were stated in this video I don't think anyone would have doubted that it was murder for a second. RIP Lizzi

[@lachlanstanding7386]

you weren't concerned that she died because you thought she consented to kinky sex?

[@cindyluwho602003]

Never trust mainstream media.

[@Roxie207]

My best friend lived in the same apartment building, as Seth, but was gone at the time. Both, the police, and landlord made it out to seem not as bad either. Kinda odd, but it seems like that's the norm in Dover.

[@PrimetimeD]

"Isn't prison the ultimate bondage?" Nice one, Mike.

[@quietstormvalley9010]

The prosecution should have offered Kat 40 years or 23 years with possibility probation after 20 years for being a witness. 3 years deal is beyond stupid-SMDH.......

[@foryoualways2552]

"You cry without tears?" The guy just said what everyone was thinking.

[@lmartinyale]

She's such a phony

[@tedjones3955]

Every time. Just sounds, no tears. That alone should tell them something about her. Phony, phony friend, phony truths and bad acting.

[@lakryth8741]

Ugh I had to skip over everything she said I can’t take that much bs, not one tear fell the entire time.

[@danis4054]

And remember...she thinks she is a very talented actress. Lmao 🤮

[@dorothytenute2710]

The more she talked I thought "yup, she is totally lying'. That was quite a performance that she gave. Although I do feel it was possible that she was manipulated/abused on some level which led her to become so warped and disturbed. If she had never met him I wonder if she would have harmed anyone

[@nico348]

I literally spent longer in prison for growing marijuana. She sure got a sweetheart deal. They must not have had enough to convict Seth without her testimony.

[@Midnighttoon]

It makes me so mad knowing my brothers are in jail for trying to put food on the table yet people raping and murdering others get nothing

[@KeelyJanelle]

@@Midnighttoon how does your brother put food on the table?

[@damac5136]

Or they were lazy.

[@joshuaa1605]

U were growing illegally?

[@gelly8983]

@@KeelyJanelle really? Read the room lol

[@Blindfold-Me]

“Cry without tears.” Exactly. You lead her there with bad intentions. Just as guilty as Seth

[@chrisgreen2786]

I'm not American but this idea of offering someone a deal of 3yrs instead of a life sentence to betray their partner seems nonsensical to me! The whole point of a trial is to get to the truth. She's saying whatever bullshit they've told her to say and he's taking the blame but clearly more people were involved in this crime.

[@jumpinjohnnyruss]

That's what happens when too many outside incentives come to bear on the prosecution.

[@kfshman]

The people who saw the body and left without reporting it to the police should be punished

[@christinejunk8184]

I wholeheartedly agree.

[@willissudweeks1050]

Yeah they should have gotten the 3 years and Kat should have gotten the 20

[@brendanhullaby4246]

They are being punished everyday😮

[@theclamhammer4447]

The fact that both were not sentenced to life without parole is a blaring double standard in the judicial system.

[@mcnuggets2011]

I'm sickened by that. They deserve NO chance to get out. They're complete monsters.

[@kerryberman609]

Agreed

[@cosmosadorabilis7677]

Or one cooperated?

[@808Fee]

I strongly suggest that the detectives had a lack of solid evidence at that time, so they offered her a deal. Remember, they had no body. If they both had stuck to the accident story and getting rid of the body out of sheer panic, he would have gotten off relatively lightly (in comparison). I agree tho, she's a monster as well.

[@udowannun7780]

Kat should absolutely have served more time, but her story is 100% feasible. The fact that she finally gave up the truth is somewhat remarkable given their dynamic, and it’s not at all a double standard that she was given a lighter sentence - happens all the time.

[@blankslate77]

This is so sad. She was at the beginning of her life and these people somehow go from it's an accident to let's dump or dismember this living human being.

[@davidhollenshead4892]

Exactly. Seth is clearly a Sociopath and clearly would have killed more women if he had the chance. While Lizzi was just beginning her adult life when Seth or both of them killed her...

[@sagecoleman8132]

Her acting on the stand is laughable...i cannot believe they did to this sweet heart 💔💔💔 when I looked into her beautiful blue ocean eyes in the picture i could feel how sweet she was those were eyes full of love and life and they disgustingly, callously, and demonically snubbed her life out and stole a beautiful light from this world....they deserve to rot in jail then rot in hell.....love and prayers to the family and rest in peace sweet Soul ❣️ so sorry this happened 😔

[@pembrokelove]

I can’t be the only one who thinks Kay’s “crying” looked creepily like laughing. That was disquieting to say the least.

[@bunnyb1599]

No, I thought the same thing. It was disgusting watching her, kinda seemed to me like she was enjoying telling everything, but had to act like it was so hard and she was apologetic. 🤮

[@crystalh2211]

Amber Heard vibes. Crying without tears. BUNK

[@missjackson3223]

I think Kat and Ghislaine Maxwell have a lot in common.

[@goudagrishhdoe8925]

To me, she came off as proud when telling what happened so what you noticed doesn’t surprise me.

[@AllezlesParisiens]

I felt the same. I was getting uncanny Valley vibes watching her cry. I had to keep skipping those parts.

[@ajtaylor8750]

Love when Coffeehouse Crime and That Chapter upload and those notifications hit. This channel is so elite in the way it breaks down these cases, showing such much care to the details. Keep it up Mike!

[@liligh]

But coffehouse is copying him

[@AngelFluff723]

@@liligh not really, they are just similar.

[@mandymoore5774]

“Elite” or unique???

[@majdabaraaouche6112]

YAAS

[@solisgirl117]

Love coffeehouse crime!

[@TheNewRobotMaster]

Kat was totally involved and knew what was going on. He literally told her I want to kill your friend, any friend, just bring them to me and she did. Then when she got caught the pitch of her voice raised, she curled her hair into little pigtails and she was all "oh don't look at me I didn't know what was happening I'm just a little girl tee hee". Ridiculous.

[@pureicefire]

Yeah, it’s actually a bit sickening to watch her. She’s so full of it.

[@danis4054]

Totally agree!!

[@danis4054]

Also ..."I'm just a little girl tee hee" 😂😂😂

[@passionsquietrage]

She couldn't have known that Seth was actually serious about killing someone. She was a victim of Seth's brutality and a forced accomplice.

[@hopelessromantic3786]

@@passionsquietrage couldn't have known? What did she think he meant? If she was the victim of his brutality she would have damn well known what he was capable of.

[@kateturner1849]

This pathetic girlfriend could have saved her. She chose not to - and that applies to the other friends too. They should all be in jail for life 😡

[@pelosishammer50]

When he said "i know what the family is going through" or something like that. No No you dont!! you have no clue the pain you have caused that family. And the bad actress.. She should have gotten min 30 years for her involvement. May all the trash burn. Thanks for another disturbing video Mike. Luv ya

[@MrHarley950]

Why in the hell were there no charges laid again Roberta and Paul? They saw someone that had been murdered and did nothing and how Kat only got 3 years is a travesty.

[@ColonelSandersLite]

In the US, you have no duty under law to speak to the police beyond identifying yourself and even that is only in some locations. That includes reporting any crimes you may have witnessed or even participated in. While, yes, the moral thing would have been to report that immediately, you can't compel it.

[@noahcarver6072]

Therein lies another example of why the country is so whacky and out of balance.

[@zeejimi4044]

Agreed ! The case would have been solved much faster if the witnesses had come forward, and Kat would probably have served a lot longer than 3 years. Just imagine ! You witness a murder, and you don’t report it, and there are no consequences..😳🤷🏼‍♂️

[@solochristo65]

@@zeejimi4044 Just publishing their names helps a little....... Imagine people whenever they see you KNOW what you did? And it was something like this! I mean it's not the best solution.........

[@jimmybalzac6021]

@@noahcarver6072 Not really. This is one of the few examples of America being halfway decent.

[@jlpjlp1953]

As oddly fascinating as these stories are, the most unsettling thing is that there are so many more stories to be told; so many nice people unfairly harmed.

[@TheRealEMURSE]

There are monsters in every town

[@anti-ethniccleansing465]

@@TheRealEMURSE Is it just me, or did this Seth monster turn into a female at the end? Wtf was with that voice?!

[@solochristo65]

I like Mike, but I only watch some of his videos once in a while........it's just too gruesome what the innocent goes through.....I don't need to hear all the gross stuff. I REALLY want Mike to do a story on How the victim turns the tables on their attacker and WINS!!!!!

[@Dante-f3o]

Your the best...you deserve whatever your rewards are for all your hard work....great narrator.👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👌🏼👋🏼

[@troyprice7407]

Kat was more involved, than she led on, honestly acting is a skill.. maybe not a good one on her part, but a skill nonetheless

[@lmzaadi]

Her testimony gave me doubt.

[@ransakreject5221]

Strait sexism. She may be as guilty as him

[@katarinanicol1651]

3 years for luring a friend to her death? That was a deal worth taking, I think Cat should have got a lot longer, but understand that at least a scumbag is incarcerated for life.

[@InteractiveIdea]

I dont think she intentionally lured her specifically to her death. I don't think death was on the menu. Choking is normal part of bdsm play... of cause it's easy to go too far

[@DavidVandemark]

@@InteractiveIdea bullshit. It takes a good while to actually choke someone to death

[@CommercialForest]

With no body, they probably needed her testimony pretty badly.

[@katarinanicol1651]

@@CommercialForest You are right, I also think it unlikely Cat is a risk to society herself...

[@dontmindme633]

@@katarinanicol1651 I disagree. I think she’s a sociopath that can’t summon one real tear for her friend she watched die. She’s a dangerous woman.

[@naggasince9548]

Kat tries so hard to cry. Yet, not a single drop of tear from her eyes. She brought Lizzie to this monster like a sheep to beheading. But it's messed up that she has got away with just three years.

[@BikingVikingHH]

Females have massive privilege within the judicial system, just look at the average sentences for the same crime LOL

[@naggasince9548]

@@BikingVikingHH that's terrible and infuriating.

[@McMahonshaun]

It didn’t change anything either. Just have us the details. It was conclusive they both killed her. The two friends who saw the body are evidence enough. She gets 3 years for the same crime. Sentence them both then the ,ultimately superficial details to secure a sentence, details will emerge. Instead she will be out to befriend society’s daughters mothers and sisters with outcomes known.

[@naggasince9548]

@@McMahonshaun hopefully the prosecution goes for a retrial and nails her for the murder.

[@Baensky]

its because .... guess what .... she is a woman 10000% if she would be a black guy = life in prison

[@allanwheeler]

That last crack about him being happy because prison is the ultimate form of bondage, was both hilarious and spot on.

[@DinoCism]

Who knew Julian from trailer park boys had such divers interests? BDSM, shitty community theatre, being a Chuck Norris wannabe and rapist retail clerk... A real renaissance man with the haircut of a 12 year old boy.

Yes you are right something is wrong with him...rest in peace

[@aaronpolselli3691]

There's no way Kat wasn't more involved. 3 years? 🤔 I almost feel like the 2 took advantage of her, tortured then killed her. I don't think Lizzie was willingly engaging with them as they both claimed. Whether the strangulation occurred on purpose or not, I'm assuming it was because they couldn't have her around to tell anyone after they savagely attacked her. Their texts are evident in their plans to find someone to do that too.

[@Gat_Totin_Liberal]

I get plea deals are a last resort for prosecutors but only 3 years is a disgrace. Hearing her “cry” during her testimony pissed me off. I’m glad the prosecutor called her out on the crocodile tears. I don’t buy her narrative either.

[@1rbdfl]

its f'd that she's already out.

[@PiXie232]

Yeah, I think the last story she told was the truth. Or as close as it will ever get to the truth. It’s what *actually* makes sense. And she definitely should have done way more time- she got off easy. She’s the one who lured her there- regardless of whether or not he wanted her to, she still had free will, and could have always have chosen not to pick an innocent woman for him to MURDER!! She’s just as guilty as he is.

[@shawnaclarkson9401]

She's just as bad as him,she's trying to play something different, she's a demon

[@wendymagnuson6069]

You are exactly right!! She’s a sick, twisted slime that belongs locked away for the rest of her miserable life!!! Where were her tears when that poor girl was being brutally murdered. Those two freaks deserve each other.

[@gayledimitri5887]

Unfortunately, she was young and super impressionable by an older guy. But I agree, she is a horrible person, and should have gotten way more time!

[@Authorised-q5s]

​@gayledimitri5887 Some of these younger females can wrap older males around their finger. Not always "super impressionable". There are a lot of dumb older males out there.

[@joedennehy386]

She should have got a lot more than 3 years. Karla Holmolka springs to mind. And those friends didn't phone the police. They should be in jail as well.

[@meredith2803]

I know, it’s disgraceful. I can understand that sometimes plea deals have to be reached but 3 years for setting this young lass up to be murdered. It’s an absolute joke!! RIP sweetheart ❤️

[@maryannebphillips9124]

Those two friends are guilty as accomplices.

[@MissNebulosity]

Seen a lot of theatre actors turn murderers in so many crime videos lately...makes me want to conclude that theatre is a magnet for narcissists who have some sadistic or entitled, dangerous behaviors.

[@u-neekusername4430]

I've been involved w/ HS & Uni theatre & have friends in community/local (& even one on Broadway), so I can assure you, YES, yes it is a GIANT narcissist magnet....& also it's mostly the actors, stage, tech, wardrobe/make-up are a different far more humble group...in fact I recall many saying "I fkng hate actors", it's a weird world.

[@jhavajoe3792]

@@u-neekusername4430 Been involved for years, until I figured the pattern- a stressed out environment of a certain kind. Anxiety circus. Been happy steering clear and anything similar to that kind of environment.

[@elizabethm3477]

Its true. Ive dated and met plenty 'theatre' people and they are malignant narcissists with lots of nutty personalities. Stay awayyyy from them

[@crazychase98]

I feel to be able to act you have to be good at lying and being a narcissist

[@PiXie232]

@@crazychase98 can you even imagine how bad Hollywood must be if just theatre actors are this narcissistic? Lol

[@petitmeowmeow]

You know what I usually do when a visit a friend, then their boyfriend randomly asks me to watch them have sex? Politely decline and then watch a movie with the girl. That's Kat's story.

[@Ad_Inferno]

Right?? Like, that would be beyond creepy. I'd be making an excuse to nope out of there so fast.

[@stevenmcghee6649]

And why didn't the two "friends" who "popped over" not report what they saw to the police?

[@bushcraftcreationsbykristi2590]

It’s absurd. So was her sentence.

[@JesseDumontt]

8:12 I mean, how could you not ditch your entire family and friends for this guy? Why would you not want to spend all your time with this stud. Just look at him in all of his elegance. Flawless.

[@kristiriley]

I'm still having a hard time wrapping my mind around the fact that there was not 1, but 2 people who came & visited the home, saw Lizzi's body lying there, & left, & still didn't call authorities after the fact. Like My good old pal Sherrilyn Dale always says, "WTF is wrong with people?" Even on the stand, you could hear how much she was trying to "distance" herself from Lizzi. By not saying her name. By saying, the body, or it. Where tf are these people's human decency & compassion? Like come onnnn.....🤦🏼‍♀️

[@littletechn8175]

Weird question, but did you go to school in Pennsylvania? Your name and face is familiar, wondering if you were a classmate :) and if not- I also completely agree. Me and my bf were just discussing how we literally cannot imagine taking another humans life and these people just like.....casually see a dead body? its really really really unthinkable

[@simonisenberg4516]

Yeah I would have liked to know more about these weird "friends" who came over. They seemed older so I guess they met over shared interests and since I hadn't heard anything about drugs I guess it was kink. And were they there just by chance or invited to try and pin it on them later? If not, why were they let in?

[@kristiriley]

@@littletechn8175 Lol.. that's not a weird question to ask. But I'm sorry no, I'm no where near from the Pennsylvania area. I'm from Canada originally & from middle school on I've been in Florida. So maybe I have a doppelganger out there. 😊 It's pretty insane how someone, let alone 2 people, as you put it....can casually see a dead body? & neither one of them has the decency to do the right thing. I mean, I know it's not something you see everyday, & it's a shock to the psyche. But I just can't believe NOT ONE PERSON called authorities immediately. I guess we'll never know!

[@kristiriley]

@@simonisenberg4516 I guess it makes sense that the only reason they would of been invited over was so they could be blamed for it, or have it pinned on them. But I'm still not getting how not 1, but 2 people saw Lizzi...dead, & did not report it to authorities immediately after the fact. Especially when they started seeing her on the news as missing. I want to know when they called. Because it sure wasn't when they left the apartment. They obviously had to of also cut a deal with the prosecution, I'm thinking to testify against him. It's all just so weird.

[@TheRealEMURSE]

I'm from the area and always thought it didn't quite add up.

[@Willbefineline]

I feel like the two people who saw her dead body should be charged with something. They could have done something but chose not to.

[@kelleydays3907]

I agree!🤬😢

[@lisaevon8274]

100%

[@chemistryofquestionablequa6252]

At least accessory after the fact or similar

[@jh2325]

Yea like negligence

[@ginaharden2111]

[should be accessory charges, and, failure to report a death, .....]

[@johnking9942]

"Do the dishes while your at it" Mike you get me every episode. Thanks

[@Lady_Ginnie]

You'd think a theater actress would be able to muster up some tears to go with all that sobbing.

[@Pocket_Sora]

Holy shit, I never would've thought I'd see this story up on your channel. I finished college and started working at the Michaels in Newington, NH around 2010 and met Kat when she was hired a year after me. She seemed so nice but the two of us never really became friends outside of work so I never really knew much about her except that she was also working at Target. I was on the clock the day the cops came into the store and walked her out.

[@JNMKlover]

How could she go back to work? As guilty and as much as she SHOULD feel she caused the end of a life, there must have been some dark things in her childhood that led to being into that garbage.

[@LutherMahoney]

You had to know she was in some deep shit when those police showed up. ESPECIALLY if there is a cop in a suit.

[@jazzerzzz22]

I remember watching the case on the news, it was one of the biggest murders here in my teen/adult years .. Some cases blow up here, you know that, and this one certainly did.. I was still in HS in Raymond when this happened.

[@bodycamfan3885]

Sora, it sounds lucky for you..."you didn't end up chained to the inside of a trunk, at the end of their bed, or hooked to a zipline while you cleaned their apartment?" Mike says, "I don't want to 'kink shame' anyone here, but..." (LMAO) This Mike guy seriously just cracks me t f up! I mean for real. Umm, I think this would be more commonly referred to as 'freak shaming' Big Mike. "Keep shining and stay GOLD!"

[@Pocket_Sora]

@@LutherMahoney Yeah, I just didn't realize what it was when they first showed up. It wasn't until my next shift that I heard from a manager what was going on.

[@Xanoriz]

Just thinking about the fact that Kat is a free women, and has been since 2016 sends shivers down my spine. She was 100% guilty, and part of the planning regardless of what kind of control she was under. She changed the story countless of times, she made sure Lizzi showed up, she helped with everything besides the killing itself. Justice was never fully served in this case and may Lizzi and her family get peace one day.

[@ritawashere5787]

Me too. I hope the police stay on her so that they catch her messing up just to send her back to jail. I feel something happened to her as a child that made her believe her role is to be a victim or subservient to a man. So I believe she was victimized at some point in her life. And maybe this boyfriend did victimize her. But, she knows the difference between right and wrong, and there would never have been a murder if she hadn't lured her over. Her boyfriend such an ass wipe is too much of a coward to go and Hunt his own victim. I did like it when Mike said that he will enjoy prison because that is bondage.😂😂😂

[@freyashipley6556]

"We also have a cat" made me shout with laughter. (Kat's "acting" is unbearably bad, both as Puck and on the stand. Ugh.)

[@scott4315498]

Wow...Three yrs. for murder? Insane.

[@danielsumbler]

Basically, where there is an Ian Brady, there is a Myra. Imagine if plea deals existed back then....there was only one victim there, God rest her soul. Nice work Mikey.

[@magallanesagustin4952]

I get that they needed a deal to sentence him, but still, why such a light sentence for her? She should have AT LEAST got fifteen years. The justice system is DISGUSTING.

[@CoffeeBrainzz]

It’s called the halo effect, all women get a slap on the wrist compared to men 🤷‍♂️

[@_HimToo]

People get line for drug possession. It's sick & twisted

[@damagecontrol7]

line..

[@coach714]

I'm guessing this isn't the last time we will hear of Kat being a witness to a BSDM murder. Also, 3 years isn't long enough for this dark mistress to fix her life direction.

[@cb3514]

The fact Kat advertised herself as switching in the ad they published is telling, to say the least. She was instrumental in luring Lizzi there to begin with, and would have fully embraced becoming dominant over someone with the sort of temperament Lizzi possessed...especially in the presence of the psycho dominant boyfriend.

[@oORiseAboveOo]

They shouldn’t be sentenced based on their potential to fix their life, but on the safety of society if they were roaming the streets. This woman clearly shouldn’t be roaming the streets anytime soon. House her in the judge’s community and see if he gives her such a short sentence.

[@ColonelSandersLite]

@@oORiseAboveOo Judge didn't sentence her. It was a plea deal. I'm guessing that, at the time they made the agreement, the DA probably didn't really know exactly what had happened. Probably just figured that she was an abused woman coerced into keeping her mouth shut. Or to put it another way, assumptions based on nothing more than sexism. Truth is, you're right that she *shouldn't* ever get out. She's clearly a psychopath. Honestly, it's hard to know how true the story she told even is. If I where a betting man, I would bet that she downplayed her own part in it.

[@BalboaBaggins]

Female privilege.

[@jodygrulich8695]

​@@cb3514very insightful comment

[@sassysmurfette9606]

Kat was initially a victim of an abusive relationship. At one point, she became a victim AND a perpetrator. I think it’s often overlooked that a person can be both. Had she stopped the situation and saved her friend, she would have only been a victim, but she chose not to do that and at that point she crossed that line into also becoming a participant in the crime and so also a perpetrator.

[@VenusmarieLeto]

See also -the horrific story of victim /perp - Lisa Montgomery.

[@MESchem]

I still don't think it's quite as simple as this. Kat was in an abusive relationship by a manipulate, violent sociopath. I don't think disagreeing with him, especially with something this serious, is much of a choice for her. It's hard to imagine the threat of violence or murder weren't explicit, much less implicit. He was clearly capable of this sort of manipulation as well as that level of violence. I'm not saying she was entirely innocent, but I don't think it's the same as having her propped as an equal in these scheme that he clearly initiated.

[@lordrosemount]

Frankly I think we need to be little less concerned about being accused of 'kink shaming' and always looking for an abuse victim in relationships such as this. They were a pair of self-absorbed perverts without the wit to realise that the social norms they took such pleasure in violating exist for reasons, one of which is so that innocent girls don't normally get strangled to death.

[@VenusmarieLeto]

@@lordrosemount he used the kink as an excuse to murder. He knew what he was doing.

[@samjohnstone2986]

she deserves life in prison not your violin

[@doclewis8927]

This is the first time I've heard a co-conspirator say that "it was because of us that she never got to live her life". To me, that seems like an actual realization of what her role was in ending someone's life. Some remorse (maybe because there were no tears) but definitely some accountability which is something we seem to rarely hear in these types of cases.

[@iamV10010]

Nah that was for the jury. She definitely was fully involved and they both just wanted to kill someone. They never found her body so I'm willing to bet there would a lot of evidence to show she fought for her life and nothing was consensual.

[@nunceccemortiferiscultu7826]

They're called "platitudes"

[@udowannun7780]

@@iamV10010 She’d never have been offered only 3 years if they had any evidence of her willfully and knowingly coercing Elizabeth to her death. Fkn duh.

[@cathybassett6432]

"It was easier to do what he said." Kat was solely responsible for Lizzie being there. She should have gotten life.

[@MarioGoatse]

This is like a mixture of so many cases with the BDSM and theatre elements. The Slavemaster case. The Mark Twitchell case. The Brittany Kilgore case. The Daniel Wozniak case. And there’s another that I’m trying to remember!

[@jaxsmith1204]

With a dash of Paul Bernardo/Karla Homolka. You're right, this one is a mishmash of various cases.

[@xeno4746]

100🎯

[@MarioGoatse]

@@jaxsmith1204 Yes that’s definitely another one! A couple that are into “kink” and end up dragging innocent people into their sex life and end up killing people definitely fits the theme. Homolka even gets off which is similar to the low sentence here. Luka Magnotta was the other case I was thinking of. Aspiring actor turned sadistic murderer who was into BDSM. I guess there’s often going to be similarities in crimes, but for some reason this video just gave me a lot of the same vibes as those cases. Creeps!

[@jaxsmith1204]

@@MarioGoatse You're so right, I completely forgot that Luka Magnotta tried to have a "modeling career" LOL!

[@WakeyWakeyEggsandBakey]

There was an Irish case where the master ended up killing his slave and dumping her body in a river. Its an awful case because the lady slave he killed had learning difficulties so would have been easily manipulated.

[@shelbia921]

Cheers Mike. Thank you for something to always look forward to!

[@ThatChapter]

Thanks for watching!

[@kimberlypatton9634]

Absolutely ! Well said!

[@GratefulDan603]

I live in Dover, have for almost 20 years. When this happened the community was completely shaken. It was a horrible thing to happen, and to all of us whom had at least met Liz, it was heartbreaking.

[@mads597]

I was going to STA at the time this happened! Agree it was such a weird, dark time

[@mrisinger]

I lived on the corner of 3rd and Main when this happened, right across from the old mill building where it happened. I first learned of her disappearance when they posted a missing person flyer on the front door of my apartment. Such a crazy and sad story.

[@patrickhale424]

It's ridiculous that the girl got off with 3yrs. She should have gotten a lot more punishment.

[@MistiMc76]

She intentionally brought Lizzie into that situation. I'm guessing she thought they would be able to get away with whatever they had planned because she was a work acquaintance that lived a little further away. Such a sad story.

[@thewhatnow]

Kat was no victim. So much duping delight throughout her testimony.

[@megatherion2695]

Stop using so much toilet paper, you keep clogging up the toilet

[@thomasel9171]

​@@megatherion2695 tf are you on about?

[@beanybabyrabie]

Those theatre performances show just how bizarre these people are. Creepy

[@Authorised-q5s]

🤣 He was looking at her in those shorts, he did not give a sh*t about her odd performance. He is a goof & she is a little girl mentally but very manipulative.

[@katz0625]

Hahahaha I loved the defense attorney calling her out on her “crying”. I hope she knows that her crying is bullsh*t!!! And also that she got 3 years!!!!! I hope he’s there for the rest of his life!! Yay!! Just got to the part where it says he got life and no possibility of parole!! And I don’t think she wasn’t a complete idiot and knew what she was doing!! I dont think she was a “victim” as well…I can’t say that in the same sentence without cringing!!

[@federica9090]

Exactly. I was like WTF Mike what were you thinking! When he said he couldn't decide if she was another victim. There's no way in hell she's a victim, I'm sickened she only got 3 years.

[@Kay0Bot]

Kat Lawyer did a GREAT job!

[@braetonwilson4296]

Kat, is that you?

[@eh-i1841]

@@Kay0Bot I’m hoping you’re being sarcastic.She procured that poor young woman.Without this horrible woman,Elizabeth would not have been there,to be murdered.

[@DrewJersey2024]

Watching this girl in court is actually painful. She is so god damn phony and such a bad actor/lier...I'm quite glad she was found guilty. While I could well be wrong, I don't think there is any doubt that the both of them were directly involved in this despicable crime.

[@FC-hj9ub]

Her "acting skills" are a crime alone

[@BalboaBaggins]

Female privilege.

[@DaftDawg]

Thanks for barking this one out big dawg

[@LuisaD93]

Hi Mike! My TC insurance hoodie came today and I absolutely love it! It’s well made and fits perfectly! Love the pockets and the well made zipper. So glad I ordered it. Now I can take a lil of That Chapter wherever I goooo!

[@thyjuliette]

Where can I find TC merch?

[@nosticker4u862]

“Sharks? How do *they* work?” I laughed for way too long at that😝

[@johno30197]

Without doubt the best murder streaming service out there mike never fails to hit the mark with his own unique breakdown and humour we love you to mike.

[@Jath2112]

Lol...."murder streaming service".... I literally said "oh sweet! New murder!" at work last Tuesday when the notification hit... I had some explaining to do...lol

[@johno30197]

@@Jath2112 yeah sounds abit OTT lol 😆 dail a murder hahahaaa!

[@CatsCoffeeCrime]

He is DaBomb‼️

[@wisteria1352]

Not a single genuine tear from this woman

[@shawnmatthews9594]

The friend who saw the body and never called the police or ambulance...frickin unbelievable 😡

[@stevejackmon]

So the people that “popped over” saw a dead body and did or said nothing at all? Also…terrible actress in theatre and an even worse actress in court! Just so much evil committed to such a seemingly good person.

[@TheRealEMURSE]

Some people are awful that's why I carry a handgun

[@toscadonna]

No tears on her glasses when crying. Fake.

[@sleepydreamdealer]

''He's in prison - the ultimate bondage." That's another one of Mike's simply brilliants.💎

[@becbell74]

Kat was acting her arse off on the stand. Yes, he may have killed her but she was all for it. He told police she came over but Kat kept changing her story. RIP 😢

[@Lucaangelo252]

Hello pretty how are you doing and how’s your family as well ?

[@The_Modeling_Underdog]

Wonder if they ever counted Kat as part of the sewage system, given all the shite she was saying. Also, nice of the friends to give advice and do a legger out of there. Who needs enemies with friends like that. They should have gotten a couple of years as well for not calling 911. Great video, Mike.

[@ColonelSandersLite]

You can't get time for that. You have no duty under law to speak to the police beyond identifying yourself and even that is only in some locations. That includes reporting any crimes you may have witnessed or even participated in. While, yes, the moral thing would have been to report that immediately, you can't compel it.

[@ForPapaandGrandma]

Egads! *Kat* is showing a cluster of deceptive body language on the stand. She was, indeed, a co-participant in the crime.

[@mysonandme8424]

Not a single tear as she was "crying" on the stand.

[@NineteenEighty8]

"I mean, look at this guy; like a moth to a flame." That level of sarcasm was unreal. I almost didn't catch it lol.

[@myknic]

Listening to Kat was so infuriating. She didn’t she’s a single actual tear.

[@ruthhase-gutierrez9830]

If she was also his victim, she wouldn't need to poorly act out her crying the way she did in that court room.

[@justineseitzinger5340]

I'd really love to know what in the hell was the bs excuse or bs justification given by those two friends that dropped by afterwards and saw her dead body but chose not to alert the authorities. Freakin Tweedle-dee and Tweedle-dum see this poor girl deceased on the floor but are like "yo, maybe take that bag off her head... welp, see ya later!" I feel like there was a lack of punishment dished out to a few individuals that absolutely deserved it, including Kat.

[@beverleycovert22]

My guess is he invited them over, once inside the 2 guests, were maybe not as impressed as he was with his accomplishment, and got the h__ out of there.

[@noahcarver6072]

Thank you for being reasonable.

[@londonsage8696]

3 years?? She’s partly to blame because she invited Lizzie over there she should’ve gotten way more time Lizzie didn’t deserve this Why do they always make deals where a participant in a murder or someone that lords them there gets the better end of the deal she should’ve gotten way more than three years she’s probably going to do a year and a half at best and that’s probably with good behavior this really sickens me Then friends came over WTF 🤬 R.I.P. Lizzie 🙏🏽♥️🦋🌻🌺🌼🌸🌹💐🌷 I’m so deeply sorry this happened to you and God bless your family

[@It-is-me...Melsie]

I personally think she was equally to blame as that piece of crap boyfriend of hers.

[@jesnemo2677]

@@Megasaurusify this. Thank you. I see a lot of people outraged especially with the case and sure it sucks but better than nothing unfortunately especially when not confident given burden of proof.

[@Julienna]

Not partly, but fully. She chose Lizzie. She chose her. She is the one that should rot in hell to think that she can do this to Lizzie.

[@danshobbies13]

So they wanted the jury to believe that someone who was an Emergency Medical Technician didn’t know how to deal with a seizure patient and call emergency services?

[@karentalbot5798]

Wow, you are so right! Never thought of that until you said that!

[@00muinamir]

This right here. Anyone doing risky play should be prepared for the possibility that shit might go wrong, but someone with EMT training would have absolutely handled this differently *if they actually wanted her to live*.