The first to die in the Dominion war were the Explorers, Engineers and Scientists put into positions to be the Federation ideals. The ones to inherit it afterwards were the Fighters and survivors. " It's not you i hate Cardassian, i hate what i became .Because of you " Miles O'brian
@stevencoardvenice3 ай бұрын
Yeah but we're smarter than you. BETTER than you. Guess how many changelings are here on earth? Right now
@AwankO3 ай бұрын
It was for the better, the Dominion war better prepared Star Fleet for the Borg as well.
@stevencoardvenice3 ай бұрын
@@AwankO Its Vice versa. The enterprise's encounters with the Borg, and the Battle of Wolf 359 in season 4/5 of TNG prepared starfleet for the dominion. The Defiant warship was designed to fight against the Borg. Starfleet gives the defiant to Sisko in ds9 season 3 in order to resist the dominion
@StevenStarksjbirdcapitalllc3 ай бұрын
You bring up a valid point and one I really can't dispute.
@AwankO3 ай бұрын
@@stevencoardvenice Ehhh you're disagreeing with a common observation of many. Lets make this make sense, what I do know is that Star Fleet post Dominion going forward, stopped trying to be purely scientific explorers and gave the military the support it actually needed. The Dominion war was a sharp push for The Federation to properly support and maintain a active military. This in turn better prepared them for Borg future assimilation attempts, as they had a larger more capable military post Dominion War. I shouldn't even have to explain this come on 😓.
@BlizzardofKnives4 ай бұрын
Reminds me of a line from an early DS9 episode, "It's easy to be a saint in paradise".
@leaf2414 ай бұрын
I think about that line alot..
@_Muzolf4 ай бұрын
That line really says it all. High minded ideals are for the people who can afford them. Its not a coincidence, that our ideas like equality before the law, individual freedoms and rights, rules for war and all the stuff we take for granted started to be really implemented during or after the industrial revolution. Agrarian societies with rivals and enemies on all sides, who`s highest form of organization is feudalism, never develop these because it takes all their will to just survive. Take all that security provided by civilization away, and there is another DS9 quote from Quark that becomes appropriate.: "Let me tell you something about Humans. They're a wonderful, friendly people, as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people... will become as nasty and as violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon."
@zerospace1014 ай бұрын
People change as the environment changes and not always in a good way. Like you said, you can be a saint but once things start getting bad and worse, morality starts taking a backseat and excuses begin to justify the slide from being a saint to a bad person who thinks they are morally superior. Survival demands this of people in these situations such as war. We all compromise some morality and ethics for it. We see this in todays world all too often on every side
@ianhirst11483 ай бұрын
Sisko said the problem was Earth. It's totally removed from war.
@shauntempley97573 ай бұрын
@@ianhirst1148 Sisko is wrong. He does not understand that if Earth was like that and dealing with what he was at DS9 on a daily basis, things would be worse. Earth at its most desperate then would make the Osidian Order and the Tal Shiar look like school children. The Klingons know how vicious and cruel humans would be at their most vicious. Even they would not want to face an entire world in that mode. What Section 31 did with the Founders is a hint of just how bad they would be, and that was a calculated move by a fringe group. It would not be good to see even Starfleet cadets take lessons to make those kinds of brutal plans.
@khanj424 ай бұрын
I think "the change" started in the aftermath of Wolf-359. The Dominion War only sped things up
@Nostripe3614 ай бұрын
I’d say that wolf-359 opened them to the idea. But since the Borg weren’t a constant and immediate threat Starfleet was turning back to a peaceful mindset. It was the war that solidified these changes and made them permanent
@Defiant64 ай бұрын
@@Nostripe361 You are pretty much correct on that, though they did slowly "start" down that road after Wolf 359 as the original Defiant was born from that although not used until the 3rd season of Deep Space Nine because as you said, the Borg threat receded a bit, but Starfleet and the Federation should've realized that they hadn't fully gone away at that time. Wolf 359 scared the Federation to its core. They never suffered such a massive defeat like that in nearly its entire history and they had to come to the realization that there are forces out there much stronger than the Federation and would use conflict against them without a second thought. Peace is not in the Borg's vocabulary unless you succumb and are assimilated by them. Starfleet and the Federation TRIED to go back (as an act of defiance) to what they were as a scientific and peaceful exploration organization, after Wolf 359. It failed, and believe it or not, it nearly failed just before the Dominion were introduced. The Federation and Cardassians nearly went to war from the creation of the Maquis. With the Maquis threatening to end what little peace there still was between the Federation and Casassians and then the Dominion coming into the picture shortly thereafter with one of the deadliest encounters in Federation history, Starfleet started going much further down that dark road. The fact that Starfleet for the first time ever allowed a Federation ship to have a cloaking device (even though it was on loan from the Romulans), and a warship at that, showed how desperate things were already starting to become for Starfleet, even before the Dominion War.
@Archangelarts4 ай бұрын
@@Defiant6 Wow! I wish I'd just read your response before wasting time posting my own! 😄
@MahsaKaerra4 ай бұрын
After Wolf 359, Starfleet did inquire into the possibility of making dedicated warships in order to combat the threat. However since their existing flagship, the Enterprise, proved sufficient in dealing with the threat it was decided that "more of the same" was enough, and as soon as the Defiant's engines proved too powerful for it's frame, that whole project was scrapped.
@stopinventing10133 ай бұрын
Definitely
@apok19804 ай бұрын
I believe Quark said it best. Humans are nice, with their root beer. But they start missing sonic showers and their meals, and they are just as bad as the Klingons. Or something like that. This is how it is in the Star Trek world and real world. Humans are that way. We are very complicated beings who can be compassionate, but we also can be a people who will do ANYTHING when truly threatened. It doesn’t matter how little or great our technology is.
@gomahklawm44463 ай бұрын
The petrodollar is over.....we will soon see.....
@johnpotts83083 ай бұрын
"As nasty and violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon" was how Quark put it (and he was probably right, too).
@stevencoardvenice3 ай бұрын
Q WARNED the enterprise at the beginning of TNG that their lofty values has never really been challenged yet. He warns that truly evil incomprehensible species are out there. Borg. Dominion. Species with zero humanistic values or aspirations. Zero pity. Zero empathy. Like when the first Cube excises, carves, and samples a cross-section of multiple decks of the enterprise, then lifting the sample up. Chilling! Riker is like WE'RE GETTIN CARVED UP HERE!! Lol
@charliedontsurf3343 ай бұрын
Quark proved he was the same way in that same episode.
@apok19803 ай бұрын
@@charliedontsurf334 hmm, I don’t completely agree. I think Quark is a survivor who’s been around. But he’s very relatable. Imagine the immigrant who came to this country many decades ago. The immigrant thinks everything is great, then one day, gets beaten within an inch of his life. Then he heals, puts a smile back on his face, and jokes with people. But in the back of his head, he’s thinking that these people can be dangerous when things get bad.
@Revenant_Knight4 ай бұрын
The Federation and Starfleet has shifted back and forth between exploration and military several times. TOS was exploration but they were already leaning further and further into military. By the time the TOS movies came about the uniforms (Monster Maroons) were purely militaristic, the Excelsior class (Sovereign of their day) were in production, and science had been spun off into its own division (Star Trek 6). After the Khitomer accords Starfleet was able to step down on their militarization a bit. There was just enough residual strength to hold off the Cardassians, but they were never a true threat. Science thrived. The Romulans returned with their massive ships, but very little actual intent to attack. Galaxy class and modernized Excelsiors were enough to hold them back, but the Romulans heart wasn't really into a direct attack. They sowed chaos with the Klingons, but ultimately they just didn't want a war, even when the Federation was caught red handed developing cloaking devices. Of course this can also be because... The Borg arrived. Q gave the Federation a taste of what was coming and a full year to prepare. God help them if he hadn't. However, a single Borg cube was a fleet killer. 10 of them could destroy all of the known empires short of the Q. Romulans knew that too. Regardless, because of the Borg, Starfleet and the Federation had to start thinking about weapons again. They beat the first cube with science, but not before thousands upon thousands died and billions more were about to. Still, the weapons they developed were distinctly designed to cope with the Borg. They weren't designed to go fight an armada of ships. The Maquis opened the eyes of the Federation to how ineffective sending a single capital ship could be against a rag tag group. Another wake up call, and they let the reigns of Sisko who proceeded to begin aggressively "decolonizing" Maquis planets. Then the Klingon War happened. It was a brutal battle but both sides respected each other. By this point the Klingons and Federation were more a civil war than an empire vs empire war. The Klingons gave Federation personnel every chance they could to surrender and retreat. The Federation did everything they could to avoid killing. Ultimately, it was more traditional Star Fleet cunning that allowed that war to end. However, that war, while having a high cost in personnel, materials, and ships also served to sharpen the teeth of both the Federation and Klingons. Less tactically oriented commanders were either replaced or killed in combat. Many older ships were destroyed and ultimately replaced with far more modern units. Combat training became a major part of Starfleet academy. If the Dominion had intended to weaken the Alpha quadrant, they had unintentionally made it stronger. When the Dominion finally went on the offense, Starfleet was already well on the way to militarization. There were heave losses at first, but the military mindset needed to win the war was already in place. Starfleet and the people of the Federation knew what was at stake, and they knew what they had to do to survive. ...and they did survive, but only in name. The old exploration Star Fleet, was gone. Some people like Picard, adapted. "Do you remember when we used to be explorers?" (Insurrection). However, that life was gone. Picard had gone from commanding a rickety old tactical ship that had been converted to science use (Stargazer), to a massive exploration city in space were people ventured out into the unknown (Enterprise D), to a deadly focused battleship that sometimes used its scanners for things other than finding enemy weak points (Enterprise E). Star Trek Picard is just the natural evolution of this. At this point, with billions dead, the Federation and Alpha quadrant has no doubt come to the conclusion that Q was right. "If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." And he was right.
@sigmacademy4 ай бұрын
You forgot the Earth-Romulan war where they were fighting each other, but only had subspace radio to communicate with each other. That is why there was an period of militarization during the TOS era to counter the war they were fighting then. Also, the Federation HAS been involved in smaller wars with smaller space empires, so technically speaking, Starfleet HAD to make sure that their ships and infrastructure were able to defend itself, so militarization couldn't be COMPLETELY wiped off the board (that would have been a TERRIBLE decision). There was a DS9 episode where the Defiant was hijacked and it was being directed to a previous species that the Federation had a minor war with and in an effort to use the Defiant to attack the same species again in what would be seen as an unprovoked attack forcing a new war, even if there was a third force behind such an act - luckily, the agitation attempt was thwarted.
@Revenant_Knight4 ай бұрын
@@sigmacademy I didn't forget, but just wanted to start where the shows started. I guess Discovery and Enterprise covered it but Discovery is Discovery and I didn't watch season 4 of Enterprise because...meh.
@ZakhadWOW3 ай бұрын
everyone forgets the Treaty of Organia, where peace was imposed by force... if not for that massive war would have broken out with the Klingons much earlier. This was all of course before the massive retcon in Discovery.
@davidwuhrer67043 ай бұрын
In TOS, Starfleet was the space navy of the United Earth Federation and later the Federation of Planets. Exploration was one of the things it did, they had standing orders to do science, but they were very much a military. In TNG, Picard says explicitly that Starfleet is not a military. There is no such thing as an unarmed star ship, the energy required to traverse interstellar space is enough to destroy a planet.
@ElvisPresleyTouchedMe4 ай бұрын
The fact In The Pale Moonlight keeps coming up in your & other ST lore KZbinrs’ videos on Federation morality just proves why it’s such an awesome episode.
@michaelshirhall18313 ай бұрын
I say it's the best episode of any star trek series. Hands down.
@stevencoardvenice3 ай бұрын
The ROMULANS. WILL ENTER THE WAR The musical score that comes on when sisko is upstairs and learns that the senator ship exploded. Figures it out. Then marches downstairs. Great stuff. Do u guys think that the whole Optalithic Datarod forgery subplot was a just a subterfuge designed by garak for sisko? For his conscience? In short, maybe there never was a Plan A
@richardtouchstone55083 ай бұрын
@@stevencoardveniceI heard somewhere that it is possible that Romulan Senator’s ship exploding was always the plan. All Garak wanted was to see how far Sisko was willing to go. I may be misremembering a line but I for some reason recall the line “And all it cost was the morals of a StarFleet officer”
@stevencoardvenice3 ай бұрын
@@richardtouchstone5508 1 criminal. 1 romulan senator. And the self respect of 1 starfleet officer. To save the alpha quadrant. I'd say THATS A BARGAIN. --------- My question is whether that was Mr. garak's plan the WHOLE time. I'm wondering if Garak knew that the datarod would NEVER pass muster the whole time. Maybe It was just a subterfuge to please Siskso, and to get the Datarod onto the senator's ship
@hindermannbjorn95072 ай бұрын
@@stevencoardvenice the datarod with the "invasion plans" was needed anyway. Just killing the senator alone may not have been enough. There was always a plan A. What is only known by Garak is if killing the senator was part of it, even if the forgery passed inspection.
@simac83964 ай бұрын
My defense of Siskos actions: The federation wanted him to maintain a balance of power between the Cardassians and maquis...Eddington poisoned a Cardassians colony with a chemical weapon that was deadly to Cardassians but harmless to everyone else... Sisko in return poisoned the maquis colony with something harmless to Cardassians but deadly to everyone else. The colonists then Switched planets maintaining a balance and keeping the peace. Siskos threat to attack other maquis colonies was most likely a bluff. He did admit that Eddington saw himself as a hero so Siskos had to play the villain.
@AC-xh3mz3 ай бұрын
Yes, I thought this was made clear in that episode. He basically had the colonists switch planets, which is a very Starfleet way to handle the situation.
@nicholasgutierrez99403 ай бұрын
It's a fitting way to maintain Star Trek ideals. Picard would have gotten shot at, the Enterprise being nearly destroyed until some random bs popped up. Sisko is more realistic. The Maquis is a side show. A blip on the radar compared to the empires we see. Sisko uses realistic methods to maintain peace while considering both sides. He acted decisively, something that Starfleet failed to do.
@m136a12 ай бұрын
This is about the third or fourth time Lore has chosen to ignore this fact, if memory serves.
@Kronosfobi2 ай бұрын
@@m136a1 And him later contradicting himself on this isnt a problem like presented in the video because he's lecturing Worf to be the ideal Starfleet officer. He's not judging his own command decisions in the past, he simply expects Worf to be better. Thanks to the Pale moonlight and few other episodes we know how far Sisko is willing to stray from Starfleet ideals just to make things work. I think he left a major part of his soul at Wolf-359, he simply wasnt the same man since. Compared to his collegues he's far more pragmatic, far more decisive and far more callous. He will lie, steal, cheat, kill, use any avaible option to win. Which is one of the reasons why he was essentially sent to a remote spacestation with nothing of use at the Cardassian border. Inconsiquential if not outright exile. After the discovery of the wormhole, his connection to Bajoran people that forced Starfleet to keep him there. Had it been not for Odo, he probably would've let genocide go through as well.
@rolla203518 күн бұрын
Sisko committed a war crime. Just because "Eddington did it" doesn't excuse it.
@xXImikoXx4 ай бұрын
With regard to Lower Decks, don't forget the advent of the Experimental "Texas-Class." A classification of Unmanned, AI-Piloted Starship with clearly formidable combat-capabilities, which would have undoubtedly been used as a supplemental enhancement for any sort of combat fleets. If there was ever going to be another Wolf-359-type incident, you can absolutely bet that Starfleet's first instinct to minimize casualties would be, "Throw the drones at them to slow them down."
@cympimpin204 ай бұрын
The Borg's particular skills in adapting and co-opting technology to serve them would likely have proven that to be a mistake.
@HasturBeta4 ай бұрын
Ah yes, WOlf 359, the largest flalse flag event to happen ever. And for what, jus so some shadow government power within STarfleet could justify more military spending on it's pet projects like those drone ships and the treaty breaking Defiant class warship....whops I mean "heavy escort" I still can't believe there are people alive in this day an age who think something like the borg exist. Literally worse than ancient flat earthers.
@347Jimmy4 ай бұрын
@@cympimpin20 exactly my thoughts
@sigmacademy4 ай бұрын
Didn't Starfleet throw unmanned drones at them right from the start after the ORIGINAL Borg attack on the fleet, when the Borg cube passed some of the planets in the Sol system on its way to Earth and unmanned craft were sent out to intercept the Cube? It didn't help any, if I remember the scene correctly. Also, the tactical options discussed (and rejected due to their impracticality in the moment) would obviously be considered as a strategic resource in any future encounters? Shelby would be in charge of that department, since it was her task to develop Borg countermeasures and defensive technologies.
@xXImikoXx4 ай бұрын
@@sigmacademy If you mean the "Mars Defense Force," I... don't think those were unmanned.
@deanspanos82104 ай бұрын
It’s not safe out here. It’s wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it’s not for the timid.
@Ceece204 ай бұрын
7:00 Okay I am going to argue that even then, he was protecting citizens, just Cardassian citizens. The Maqui were not only using chemical weapons to poison multiple planets, but they were attacking fleeing ships with civilians onboard. That is a very *critical* detail that gets missed a lot, but when the Maqui attacked a civilian transportation ship that are fleeing a poisoned planet, they said mass murder/genocide is on the table. At that point, you have to make both a Starfleet decision and military decision. You must protect the fleeing citizens and you must stop any further planets from being poisoned. The rest was dramatic flair to play the part of villain for Eddington.
@sigmacademy4 ай бұрын
Except, the Cardassians was going on a murderous campaign of wiping out Maquis wherever they were found using their Founders' fleet resources to do so. If you go back even more, the original episode where Picard gives the colony the option to leave the area that the Cardassians wanted or forfeit Starfleet protection, essentially left the colonists on their own just to satisfy the Federation's political need to play nice with the Cardassians to not start a diplomatic incident - it's essentially what would have happened if Picard made the same offer to the colonists in the Sheliak episode, and the colonists refused to move COMPLETELY, like in the case of the Bak'u.
@Ceece204 ай бұрын
@@sigmacademy yeah I’m pretty sure we retconned the Picard resolution in TNG out or it just only applied to that one colony. It really wasn’t explained well plus the entire Wesley story thing.. The Cardassians also didn’t have any of the Dominion strength yet, so any of their aggression was just the Cardassian civilians. That however does not justify attacking fleeing transport ships. There is a pretty big escalation of small skirmishes to mass murder and whole planet poisoning. Sisko was right when he said the Maquis escalated it and had become an intolerable threat, to both the Federation, with their ships being attacked and disabled, and the Cardassians, with entire planets being poisoned and fleeing civilians targeted for mass murder.
@lukedalton3 ай бұрын
@@sigmacademy the Cardassian command during the military dictatorship secretely armed the civilians and the cycle of attack and revenge quickly started the conflict in the DMZ; during the event mentioned Cardassia was a democracy (or at least attempted to return one) under civilian control. Eddington used the Trek equivalent of Weapon of Mass Destruction to make a planet poisonous for the Cardassian so that the Maquis colonist can take over and had done in two planet already and Eddington attacked civilian refugee ship to distract Sisko from pursue him. Basically he and the Maquis were terrorist that used WMD and by doing that they opened an enormous can of worm, there were no way that the UFP (or any other government) will have permitted to freely go around merrily depopulating planet and later become an independent government. Sisko action even if extreme, saved lifes mantained the balance of power and hallowed Starfleet to obtain all the cache of WMD of the maquis without further violence. Picard pointed very very very clearly that if the colonist on their own will forfeited their federation citizenships, they were on their own and stressed out how much was dangerous but the locals decided to remain on their planet refusing UFP offer to relocate and sure that it was done to satisfy the UFP political need is called diplomacy aka 'the need of many outweight the need of few', it's not that the UFP was happy but the border conflict with the Cardassian Union was worsening and war has been averted already a couple of time and in that period Starfleet was still in the post borg rebuilding phase so while they had the mean to beat the Union it will be a bloody battle that will have left them open to the various aggressive neighbourgh, so exchanging planet with a very limited strategic and economic value for the Federation in exchange for a cool down of the tension and a better defensible border weeeell was a very smart move. In the Sheliak episode is say from minute one that the alien race will kill the colonist that they will see as traspasser, the entire episode is Picard trying to buy time for the evacuation and Data showing how the colonist don't have a single chance against the Sheilak, note that the colonist were there illegaly and without the knowledge of the UFP
@CaptShriver4 ай бұрын
I so much wish they would have made or been able to make DS9 in 4k or at least Blu-ray quality. That will never happen unless somebody pays for it themselves and the millions of dollars and no one's going to do that
@lateefpou29864 ай бұрын
Facts take my money
@HasturBeta4 ай бұрын
There ARE some fans actually remastering DS9 into 4k using AI upscaling. It's not....perfect... but the dominion wars space battle scenes are peak. Though having watched them now I have to laugh at how they reused the same bird of pray kamikaze run scene twice an how obvious it was
@vrenak4 ай бұрын
@@HasturBeta Not the only reuse there was, multiple spaceship scenes were used more than once.
@ts757arse4 ай бұрын
Those AI remasters are awesome. They should be hired to do it with professional equipment. I'd buy that.
@canuckster244 ай бұрын
@@HasturBeta twice? pretty sure it was a good few times they used it. That and a gem hadar ship kamikazeing into a klingon war bird.
@JamesRoyceDawson4 ай бұрын
DS9 is my favourite Star Trek show for this realism
@robertw319684 ай бұрын
It's my favorite also. It was so much more realistic than TNG or TOS. Or any of the rest really.
@rc89374 ай бұрын
Eddington escalated the conflict. Sisko responded disproportionately which is how you create deterrence. He managed to do so in a way that didn't cost any innocent lives.
@LoreReloaded4 ай бұрын
We don't know it didn't. I'd be surprised if it didn't honestly
@sigmacademy4 ай бұрын
We don't know if he escalated the conflict, we only know that they bluffed about the missiles. So, to be fair, Sisko was the one in the wrong (eventually), because he used excessive force to get his own way, in a way that gave an enemy force a strategic advantage (by eliminating a Maquis base, he essentially freed up the Cardassian and Dominion resources that was fighting said base and its activities to be used against Federation target elsewhere during the Dominion War) - which seems in line (and consistent) with how he would be open to lying to get the Romulans on the side of the Federation to prevent the Federation from collapsing because of the Dominion simply steamrollering all over the Federation. One can also make the comparison with the Prime Directive, and how Kirk could always get away with as many things as he did, when any OTHER captain in the fleet would have been kicked out (the answer: he was successful in what he did, even if/when that violated Federation principles and values). So, the question is: was Eddington correct in fighting the war in the way he did? That largely depends on what you considered to be "fair" when fighting a conflict, especially since the Federation initially abandoned the original colonists to be (further?) terrorized by Cardassian elements for the sake of politics (and not saving lives). Had the Federation not abandoned the colonists (or at the very least allowed Starfleet to provide them with a permanent Starfleet Security presence), the Maquis as a force would have never been created/expanded to become a thorn in both the Cardassian and Federation's sides.
@rc89374 ай бұрын
The missile bluff took place in a subsequent episode. I was referring to "For the Uniform" when Eddington attacked and crippled the starship _Malinche_ . That was the escalation. The episode implies the Maquis could never have pulled that off without Eddington's expertise and makes it clear Sisko's motives were not just personal. Sisko wanted to prevent a _Casus belli_ to preserve the peace between the Dominion/Cardassia and the Alpha quadrant. Sure, in hindsight his actions appear to have hurt the Federation's military position, but one could argue he delayed the war and thus bought them time to prepare for it. Let's face it, the Maquis were easily wiped out by the Dominion which didn't even merit an episode to show us how they went down. As for Federation values, well we saw where those went in _Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges_ . So, it's kind of funny when mentioning Kirk since he never served during war time, despite fighting so many battles.
@A407RAC4 ай бұрын
@@sigmacademy Chap above me is correct, the missiles being loaded with cobalt diselenide which is toxic to Cardassians only. He absolutely did not bluff, and fired those on a Cardassian colony (Quatal Prime) and used that to force Sisko to rescue the civilian transport instead of being able to chase Eddington (who fired on the civilian transport sending crashing towards the planet)
@ShawnTheSheep4073 ай бұрын
@@LoreReloaded in my opinion, the Freighter incident and the Eddington Incidents are two different scenarios. Sisko made a strategic decision in Eddington incident, but that was not to save his life or is crew. While it was noticeably personal, it also served to de-escalate situation quite rapidly.
@JohnSmith-pj6wb3 ай бұрын
deep space nine is my favorite star trek show...its just so good and sisko is my fav captain but I may be a rare voice
@jayfeather9653 ай бұрын
I enjoy the angle that the federation never forgot how bad things got during the Dominion war. How close they came to losing everything they’d built. That while they shifted back into a scientific organization, they never kept their phasers out of reach
@silversonic14 ай бұрын
You missed the point with Sisko. His use of the trilithium resin torpedoes was actually a VERY important move. The Maquis used such a method IN THE SAME EPISODE to displace Cardassians. Sisko decided that it was time to play "eye for an eye". Eddington's attempt at guilt-tripping Sisko over turning civilians into refugees... EDDINGTON DID IT TOO! DON'T YOU DARE ACT LIKE HE HAS THE MORAL HIGH GROUND! In the end the displaced Cardassians and displaced Federation citizens swapped planets. Lemonade was made with the lemons that two bitter men threw at each other.
@AT2Productions3 ай бұрын
It's sad that many people reference that episode, and specifically that exchange between Sisko and Eddington, while forgetting the context. While heated in the moment, Sisko ended up doing the most moral thing in that regard. You two groups are bitching about the planets you're on, well here, now you can switch and not worry about the other one being able to step foot on your ground without massive assistance.
@Hibbs4Prez3 ай бұрын
This dude always had a love affair for Eddington and a dislike of Sisko.
@HyranicGaming3 ай бұрын
Sisko decided to be the villain Eddington saw him as, and because of that, Eddington played in to his hand.
@m136a12 ай бұрын
@@Hibbs4Prez True enough, but these episodes also come across, to me at least, as an attempt to justify the increasing poor product that is modern Star Trek. (As an aside, I think the downward trend started in DS9 with making Odo Kira's lovesick puppy and the inclusion of Vic Fontaine thus turning the series into a damned musical.)
@Kronosfobi2 ай бұрын
@@m136a1 I think Vic Fontaine wasnt really an issue. But Odo & Kira love plot while bad, it has been something clued in at the very start. I think the downfall started when they refused to let Dukat die the second time and tried to tie EVERYTHING to him. Kira's old missing dead mother? Turns out she's a lover of Dukat! Pah wraiths? Turns out they chose Dukat! New Cardassian Republic? Turns out DUKAT OF ALL PEOPLE is one of the most influential members! Dukat this, Dukat that. They were not afraid of making new characters, but they were terrified of killing off any villain they've introduced. Not to mention Dax's untimely death for no reason at all..
@walruspolish3 ай бұрын
Great vid. I love that despite this series being nigh on 30 years old, we're still able to explore, talk about this in a thought provoking way that challenges our own views. Bravo, sir.
@badwolf664 ай бұрын
Love The Toy Maker Doctor Who reference! Starfleet did terrible things to save trillions of lives but it's nothing compared to what the Timelords & The War Doctor did during The Time War.
@zedoniverse4 ай бұрын
me too! "well that's alright then!" XD
@rmcdudmk2124 ай бұрын
I've been saying that early post Dominion war Trek has some of the most interesting story possibilities. It opens up the universe the kind of wild West story telling from TOS and combines it with the intreaques of DS9.
@tomreg77373 ай бұрын
There was this quote from Picard in ST9 "Someone remember when we were explorers"
@DarinRWagner4 ай бұрын
I tend to look at the Dominion War as a thing that RESTORED Starfleet to what it was as originally presented in TOS: a space navy.
@cympimpin204 ай бұрын
Ideally it's a bit of both. Starfleet at the height of the Dominion War was IMO a little too far on the military side, but Starfleet in the TNG era and prior to the DW was waaayyy too naive and impotent. Putting families on frontline flagships is just stupid af. The mentality that allows a Starfleet Command to go along with that decision is decidedly out of touch with the hardships of the real world and having multiple peer-level adversaries nearby.
@JohnSmith-pj6wb3 ай бұрын
@@cympimpin20 people often overlook the first war starfleet got into with romulans under captain archer in star trek enterprise...that war started something in starfleet that eventually grew into section 31 and what the federation was capable of during the dominion war
@MasterUxi3 ай бұрын
Yeah TNG complacent era appears to be the rare moment of exception when not faced with hostiles. Given that the Dominion remained undefeated (and entirely untouched by the war in their home Delta Quadrant), I suspect Starfleet would still be primarily structured to fight another Dominion War, as well as Borg and other threats (Species 8472, etc) rather than letting the guard down again.
@m136a12 ай бұрын
@@JohnSmith-pj6wb Section 31 existed prior to the launch of the NX-01 Enterprise. It was named after Article 14, Section 31 of the Starfleet Charter. Many have confused that with the Federation Charter, which came later. I'm not saying that you're operating under that misapprehension, but I thought it a good idea to include the information just in case.
@patrick_j_lee4 ай бұрын
I feel if they had leaned into the Federation actually having been changed by the Dominion War in shows like Star Trek Picard people would have been more accepting of the darker tone. But since they didn't, it seemed to a lot of people that the Federation was edgy now just because the writers wanted it to be.
@cympimpin204 ай бұрын
Yep. They had the perfect setup to the kind of story they wanted to tell, and didn't use any of it. Instead we got the Romulan supernova crap from JJ's NuTrek and Romulan feminist cults instead.
@davetycho83304 ай бұрын
The OP here gets it. Shows like Discovery and Picard are the way they are because of their writers- different writers to those that made DS9- not because of the Dominion War.
@Kronosfobi2 ай бұрын
@@davetycho8330 Not to mention Discovery and by extension its crew, exist 10 years prior to ToS. They may have time jumped into the future but their decisions made during the first half of their adventure should've been motivated by Starfleet ideals and not some ''kill before they kill us!'' mentality.
@Archangelarts4 ай бұрын
Interesting! I was always of the mindset that Wolf-359 marked the end of Starfleet's Golden Age of Exploration. With that happening so soon after the reappearance of the Romulans the tactically minded officers, like Cdr. Shelby and Admirals Leighton and Ross, would've been asked to start coming up with new "what if" scenarios. They would also have seemed less paranoid. The new anti-Borg Starfleet was the fleet Starfleet took into the Dominion War. The fleet that came out the other side was, literally, built different. Like you said, they went from science ships with weapons to warships with science labs. I think it would've even broken Kirk's heart.
@andrewreist6144 ай бұрын
Happy to see videos from you again recently Lore. Feels like it's been forever
@stopinventing10133 ай бұрын
Mankind had forgotten fear, but the borg and the dominion brought it back.
@bluntamainia4444 ай бұрын
After binge watching, TNG, DS9 and Voyager my conclusion is that star fleet has always been a space military and the Enterprise D/TNG was more of diplomatic exploration mascot ship for legitimate and propaganda purposes. The rest of Star fleet is militaristic and the majority of the Federation territories is always on edge because of territory disputes with neighboring empires. The DS9 Dominion war just showed Star Fleet in actual war time and battles.
@sigmacademy4 ай бұрын
The Federation territories are always on edge because there are always hostile elements in the Alpha Quadrant, not because they are part of the Federation. Also, the neighbouring empires want to swallow up small regions of unclaimed space for its colonizing and resource potential (not to mention ability to control trade routes and transport corridors), even if the locals might not appreciate it happening. If anything, the smaller regional powers are more afraid of what the Klingons and Romulans (Or even Orions) would be up to (usually force them to become part of their Empires at more or less gunpoint) than anything the Federation is busy with. You CAN argue that the Mirror Universe version of the Federation is militaristic to a massive degree, but I can't possibly see how you see the actual Federation as a "space military", especially since its fleet is dispersed all over the Federation, it has no standing army, it only beams down about 2 - 6 people down to any surface, they tend to favour diplomacy and communication above most other options and they tend to try and help out anywhere they possibly can.
@tickledeggz16 күн бұрын
Starfleet had to custom design a warship for the dominion war because they didnt own any, and they were shit at war in the beginning of the conflict with the Dominion. But sure, they were always a highly militarized organisation. Picard (the most hard nosed Captain weve ever had on screen) definitely didn't choose the peaceful option in every scenario it was plausible. I'm sure some people didnt actually watch the shows at this point.
@blueknight57543 ай бұрын
I would argue that the borg was a real eye opener for starfleet…they discovered that they were weak and vulnerable a bit before DS9.
@Palmerrip3 ай бұрын
After reading the Titan series of books I really don't like how Lower Decks made the Luna class into combat ship instead of a explorer ship.
@theviewer41042 ай бұрын
I would love to see the utopia side of the Federation restored. We’ve explored the decay in these recent stories and honestly were living through a lot of that stuff irl. It would be awesome, I think, if Star Trek started to write more optimistically again-demonstrate how even through a long period decay, Starfleet and the Federation are able to find themselves again. I think that’s a plot worth exploring, and will have just as much value and drama as the decay you point out. Anyway, great video
@charliedontsurf3343 ай бұрын
I completely agree that the Dominion War changed everything. Bashir said it best, “Are human beings that different from Romulans or Cardassians? If something terrible were to happen to the Federation.” Those words in Past Tense were prophetic. If Starfleet had been more assertive in the TNG era, a lot of this might not have happened. The Dominion War certainly would still have happened, but when you descent into thinking even testing combat skills to a fight for your life, things change more dramatically. FYI anti-personnel mines, sea mines, and anti-tank are still perfectly legal under the Law of Armed Conflict as of 2024. The Ottawa Treaty banning them, but the 3 largest powers in the world (USA, Russia, and China) are not signatories.
@MikeRob7143 ай бұрын
Great breakdown- I would say the DS9 episode-beyond the pale moonlight is one of my favorite… show what the federation is willing to do to save itself even it’s against federation regulations. To me that episode is the most real world example.
@JohnSmith-xq1pz4 ай бұрын
Saw Dominion in the title and figured it was more they're the good guys video... I do agree with you about the federation's errors
@st.anselmsfire35474 ай бұрын
The Dominion War changed everything, and I'm glad it did. I like how they're confronting idealism vs cynicism now.
@JamesRoyceDawson4 ай бұрын
Wish we could get a 4k release of DS9
@cympimpin204 ай бұрын
Probably be another 10-20 years before that happens. It was unfortunately recorded on magnetic tape video, not actual film. Real film has much better resolution and that's why it's so easy to make 4k remasters of old movies or shows. TNG was recorded on film, hence that show getting a remasters. But since DS9 was recorded on comparatively crappy magnetic tape, there are no high-quality masters. They just don't exist. What we see is all there is. The only way that might chance is if AI becomes sophisticated enough to basically rebuild it frame by frame in higher resolution. And as powerful as AI is now, that is going to take years to accomplish.
@robertw319684 ай бұрын
@JamesRoyceDawson have you seen What We Left Behind, by the show runners of DS9? The did recreate some of the battles from DS9 into 4k. It's really goos
@warppizza4 ай бұрын
@@cympimpin20DS9 and Voyager were filmed, but edited on tape. So it is possible to do a full remaster, as long as the film is in good condition. Requires redoing the CGI from scratch and re-editing/compositing.
@mikesumpter903 ай бұрын
Let’s take for instance the Klingon federation war in discovery. The federation went up against a race which operated in a state of nearly constant conflict and viewed war a a full contact sport.
@kellyjeaularson57863 ай бұрын
Your take/reviews are excellent. Just simple excellent.
@Klutzsmith4 ай бұрын
This is how the Federation begins it's long, slow descent into the Imperium of Man.
@DocWolph4 ай бұрын
The Practicalities of the Universe they live in dictating their steps more than the leaders themselves. 😞
@miles23784 ай бұрын
The Dark age of technology was like 15 thousand years long.
@sigmacademy4 ай бұрын
@@miles2378 Characterized by a fair number of conflicts in between (like humanity's robotic forces turning on them) and multiple Chaos Gods that were looking to "subvert" humanity in every way possible.
@johnfuhrman2854Ай бұрын
It isn't really good that triumphs over evil. It is greater, but controlled, darkness that triumphs over the less controlled darkness of evil. Starfleet finally learned this lesson with the Dominion war.
@kevinrexsavage81083 ай бұрын
Thank you for sharing this. I appreciate your perspective on these cases...
@NateAdamsMadeofAdams3 ай бұрын
I feel like this is shown but not explained really well in Star Trek Insurrection, Starfleet Command moving and slowly letting a culture die and good Starfleet officers feeling the whiplash of the moral shift
@Kang0033 ай бұрын
Great video as always
@mikesumpter903 ай бұрын
After the Klingon war we would have seen a dramatic push for a federation army, not some shadow navy.
@PappaLezlie4 ай бұрын
Thats why DS9 is my favourite series. It represents clearly, how much of our morals we willing to sacrifice for the sake of survival.
@johnsteiner34173 ай бұрын
The notion of Starfleet not being military was always suspect to me, even as a kid watching TOS before TOS was ascribed to it. Their ships seemed on par with equivalently scaled Klingon and Romulan vessels, which were dedicated warships. One of the reasons Into Darkness was so good is that it had that policy discussion out front for the audience to see it.
@tougheddie72973 ай бұрын
Good video. I haven't watched one of your videos fully for a few years, but this video was back to near your best
@bemasaberwyn554 ай бұрын
I've been saying this for years. And I'm so glad you are talking about this
@LoreReloaded4 ай бұрын
It's a good topic
@RaymondSchulte3 ай бұрын
This is an excellent parable about the United States military changing from the principles it held during WW2 and the Cold War and how it changed during the Global War on Terror.
@Kameth3 ай бұрын
I've always maintained that the only reason Sisko got away with the bio torpedos is that it was against the Marquis. Any other opponent he would have been court martialed the moment the after action reports got seen by Starfleet. I feel that Starfleet found the Marquis uniquely embarrassing to deal with. Many of their members were former Starfleet officers, some very high ranking, and Starfleet command took that rejection of Starfleet, their ideals, and criticism of their actions very personally. So Sisko poisoning a planet to get a former Starfleet Marquis officer and put that planet back under Cardassian control (aka the 'correct' decision Starfleet made in a treaty) at the cost of forcibly relocating Marquis 'traitors'? Swept under the rug. Starfleet likes to preach their enlightened ideals but they don't always manage to live up to them.
@RisingSunReviews4 ай бұрын
These events show how hard the moral choices are. Lying is wrong, but what about when it saves lives? And killing innocents is wrong, but if it brings a quicker end to a war, could it be justified? It's easy to say that you should always stick to the moral high ground, and that's a noble desire to have. But considering the situation the Federation and Star Fleet was in here, I understand the decisions they made. A lot of real-world parallels here, too.
@LoreReloaded4 ай бұрын
I agree..I think you could pragmatically justify all of the actions I discussed
@Wedgekree4 ай бұрын
That's one of the things that I've rather appreciated on the new shows (well most ones set post-DS9). That they've kept this sort of thing going, even if indirectly in the background. They've shown the decades of aftereffects that have rippled through Starfleet because of it, and they've done so very well. You can agree or disagree on the tone and if you like it or not but the shows have done a good job of keeping up the consequences.
@danz11824 ай бұрын
The original theme of Star Trek was a future where humanity had grown past its early days and eliminated want and some of the baser parts of life. It was an optimistic show about a better future. The current Star Trek is virtually straying into Warhammer 40k territory. In the future, there is only war. The heros are generally fighting not just the monster of the week, but their own command structure. I think the point that it has evolved to get here and that there is a line of continuity to thematically connect where it was to where it is, is a fair and well stated point, but that does not make it any less depressing. Society in the Star Trek they make now is no better than society today. Arguably, it is worse. That is more sad than entertaining.
@TheGuy643 ай бұрын
This is the first of your videos that I’ve seen (enjoyed it but some music choices were distracting) so you can imagine how at 8:10 it took me a minute to understand what I was hearing 😂
@JamesRoyceDawson4 ай бұрын
If Starfleet had gone to war with Cardassia again it would've meant TRILLIONS of lives at stake. The Maquis are a few million or billion? it's not even remotely close. It sucks, but Sisko made the right call
@sigmacademy4 ай бұрын
Starfleet DID go to war with Cardassia (even if via Dominion control), and the Cardassians and Federation citizens DID lose their lives in the ensuing war. So Sisko's call proved to be pointless in the long run, because Cardassia DID become an enemy combatant in the near future (although he couldn't have known that at the time), plus one would think that he would have been sympathetic to the Maquis cause, especially since he was seen as a religious figure in Bajoran society, who had ALREADY suffered similarly under the Cardassians.
@clwho46524 ай бұрын
People keep assuming Cardasians was a real power, but the Maquis kicked their ass, the Klingons kicked their ass. If a ragtag group of separatists could kick the Cardasians ass, Star Fleet could have curb stomped them and the only reason they didn't in the Boarder War was they believed in peace over war.
@Charlotte_Martel4 ай бұрын
I agree with you 100%. The Maquis were willing to reignite a blood war simply because they refused to move into the Federation lands when offered. If you choose to live on Cardassian lands, then you must obey Cardassian laws.
@clwho46524 ай бұрын
@@Charlotte_Martel They settled in Federation territory, the Federation gave their land away with out their permission. Why should they have to move? Why should they respect the treaty? The Federation betrayed them, they were the victims, the Federation and Cardassians the victimizers. On top of that the Cardassian government was evil (the Cardassians occupied Bajore, enslaved the Bajorans, and the Cardassian government treated their own people horribly) and all on screen evidence shows the Cardassian military to be weak in comparison to the Federation and any of the other major powers. In 1938 the UK and France agreed to let Nazi Germany to annex part Czechoslovakia, they did this to placate Hitler to prevent a war with Germany. Czechoslovakia was not part of the conference that led to the Munich Agreement and was forced to agree to this because of they resisted, Czechoslovakia would stand alone against Germany. The agreement did not stop Hitler from taking the rest of Czechoslovakia and didn't stop World War 2. For some people, if you give them an inch, they'll take a foot, if you give them a foot, they'll take a mile, give them a mile, they'll take a country, give them a country they'll take the world. If the Bajorin Wormhole was never discovered and the Maquis never formed, would the Cardassians have respected the treaty or would they have seen it as a sign of weakness and went to war with the Federation anyways to get more territory? Based on what was seen of the Cardassian government and military a war was inevitable.
@JamesRoyceDawson3 ай бұрын
@@sigmacademy that’s post hoc justification. Sisko couldn’t have known about the Dominion war at that time and any action to try to prevent a war would still be justified at that point. Your logic would suggest that the federation should just basically be an empire and go to war whenever any of its citizens are threatened
@jd190d4 ай бұрын
It's easy in a world without real threats to hold to ideals, but threats to your existence will require either compromising those ideals or ceasing to exist. It's like Americans who say they never would condone kamikaze style attacks but have never faced the threat of a loss that would probably lead to that exact thing happening. Series like BSG have done exactly that, explored doing that exact type of action. I always felt Starfleet should have kept the MACO's and had a portion of the fleet dedicated to a war style of training. No one does everything well and people who prepare for conflict will always have an advantage over those who don't. That keeps them prepared for a Dominion or Borg type threat and they could be the vanguard with the rest of the fleet as support. If they had a Reserve type service they would always have a force that could be prepared as well to call up if needed. You could have 2 Defiant class reserve ships to escort every Enterprise type ship if conflict is expected. I think one of the problems Star Fleet has always faced is enemies who think the Federation is unprepared for a hard conflict and take advantage of that. A unification with the Klingons has a whole population that would enjoy preparing for conflict if needed.
@Greywolf9054 ай бұрын
Sisko actually touches on that you may recall. "Do you know what the problem is? It's Earth. On Earth there is not crime, there is no poverty, there is no war! you look out the window of Star Fleet command and you see paradise! well it is easy to be a saint in paradise, but the Marquis do not live in paradise." same thing. it's easy to be a saint in heaven, but when you get through into hell a lot of those lofty ideals don't fallow you there.
@jd190d4 ай бұрын
@@Greywolf905 He does, but it is only for the idea that they may need to take greater action then they are currently doing. They also touch on the threat of militarization when that one officer uses the threat of the changelings to instill martial law. I am saying that a dedicated military arm of Starfleet and a reserve force is needed to support the fleet when necessary. Star Trek acts like a Starfleet officer can do it all but specialized military forces will always have an advantage over someone who has trained for a bit then never does it again. It's like asking for a logistics sergeant to stay as proficient as an infantryman. They can help, but since it is not their job they simply can't be asked to do that nearly as well.
@Greywolf9054 ай бұрын
@@jd190d wasn't disagreeing with you. just expanding on some things. it's a critique I've had of Startrek for a long time. most people view the federation as some kind of optimistic future. I've always viewed it as what happens when a great power grows complacent and naïve. DS9 did a good job of highlighting all the cracks it had.
@sigmacademy4 ай бұрын
Starfleet still HAD the MACOs, in the form of Starfleet Security. You can see this in the way that Security Officers receive tactical training and were trained in weapon construction and usage. The only difference is that Security Officers were multi-role specialists, as in forensic analysts/investigators (Tuvok doing investigations whenever crew members were killed or him going through logs in an episode featuring Seska), correctional facility supervisors (brig), tactical trainers (the holodeck exercise on stealing that coil from a Borg vessel in Voyager), VIP bodyguards, etc. Another commentator talked about the need for a dedicated military force and reserve, but that commentator forgets that the Federation is a civilian government, and one would question what need a spacefaring society that preaches cooperation and peace would have for an army or the stockpiling of weapons that one would need to equip such a force with?
@Greywolf9054 ай бұрын
@@sigmacademy most nations on the planet right now are led by civilian governments. to believe that preaching cooperation and peace means you will never find need to go to war is extremely naïve. you keep that army and build up that stockpile because not everyone will always be friendly and want to cooperate. even those that do not will not always do so.
@talus0073 ай бұрын
Sisco meant it when he said that if you can’t uphold Starfleet values, you can’t wear the uniform. At one point, he chooses Baijor over Starfleet. And at the end, chose to leave Starfleet
@JJMHigner3 ай бұрын
Absolutely. And for all the right reasons succeeding. There was humanity and the federation and other races in the universe before and then after the Dominion War. It's quite literally the dividing line.
@inuboy8674 ай бұрын
I love that darker Star Trek, it is so much better than the TNG Era.
@xjamberxx77204 ай бұрын
i'd say, the Federation in later shows, def showed what really would a happened -- they'd def be on a cold-war footing, arming up, etc ... why? bc the enemy IS still there, the Dominion still exists --- with just a sliver of their military (remember most their forces r trapped on the other side of the wormhole) they almost took over --- 1 thing i def LIKED about Picard s3 ... changelings didn't disappear, still around (and beyond the wormhole, the Jem Hedar still there ... with improvements -- the same build up in tech for weapons that StarFleet had ... the Dominion would do the same
@cympimpin204 ай бұрын
They really flubbed a golden opportunity in Picard to explore this more. A better story than what we got practically writes itself. They already had Picard having left Starfleet in some level of disgust. But then they went and tied it to that ridiculous Romulan supernova crap that is only a thing because of JJ's NuTrek. Instead, they could have (and should have) set it up so that Starfleet had become far more militarized because of the Dominion War. Make it so that most of the new crop of Starfleet personnel had joined up during wartime, so you've got a lot of ships designed for combat, captains and crews who are more militant and less interested in science and diplomacy, a Starfleet command that is a lot more cautious and cagey, perhaps passing up some prime opportunities for diplomacy out of fear. Admiral Picard finds himself with fewer and fewer of the old school Starfleet types around him, and basically gets forcibly retired due to his constant push to demilitarize. Cue some new threat (not dumb sentient AI crap, Borg, or weird feminist Romulan cults) where most of Starfleet is seeing it one way because of their military mindset, while Picard knows that the truth is something else, but he's no longer in a position to do anything since he got forced out. Start the story there.
@sigmacademy4 ай бұрын
To add/contrast to what you were saying: Picard wouldn't have left Starfleet because of disgust (not adding the "Mars attack" scenario to this, because having a space defence asset for a world that can fire on the world itself is a foolish defence concept), because he was the living embodiment of Federation principles and values, a far better potential role model for Starship Captains of the more caution type than a daredevil like Kirk (some might even say reckless at time). He might probably have left (or been pushed out) because of his strong commitment to his own set of values (we've seen him resigning before when he thought the Starfleet leadership were wrong before) - especially when they don't align to what Starfleet might consider to be appropriate or politically expedient. If you want to set up a proper moral dilemma for Picard, start with how Sisko lied to get the Romulans to help the Federation, or how the Maquis were essentially wiped out because Picard didn't help them enough in the original episode (and some Maquis were jailed, so having survivors blaming him for their friends' demise when they got out/escaped would prove useful as a jump off point), or even the Federation's inability to save many of its member worlds from danger might have given Picard pause on the effectiveness of the Federation as a peacekeeper or progressive force of good in the Alpha Quadrant, given the many moral compromises it had to make during the Dominion War. The Romulan supernova element was because they wanted to tie it in to the JJTrek movies. It in itself, is similar to the other supernova stories in Trek already, but also a throwback to the Klingon moon exploding. If anything, Starfleet wouldn't have become more "militaristic", but the Federation member worlds might have asked themselves a very hard question about what Federation membership actually means, particularly because the Federation couldn't properly protect some member worlds and because of the massive losses suffered in the Dominion War, not just in crews lost, but also civilian casualties. If you want to follow the "ships designed for war" argument, you can see that it would be a contradiction to the "peaceful and cooperative" messaging of the Federation, and that it might in itself create FURTHER questions, especially since the hijacking of Starfleet ships is a possibility that has been explored multiple times in the Trek universe, and mothballing warships wouldn't exactly be a smart move, as one can probably project that the Delta Quadrant would become a new frontier to explore in the near future with the acquisition of quantum slipstream drive technology to study, not to mention Voyager's database of encountered species, technologies seen and sensor data/star maps, along with the long-range communication technology developed to communicate with Voyager over massive distances in later seasons. Starfleet Command would have been looking for new Federation members (as seen in Picard's commentary during one of the TNG movies) to cover their Borg and Dominion losses. Starship design and optimization has always been a feature of Starfleet, so I don't really understand KZbinrs emphasizing the improvement of shields, phasers and photon torpedoes as any kind of "militarization", because that has always been a continual process for Starfleet, in order to provide its crews with the safest possible spaceborne mode of transport it could provide. You could make the argument that the addition of armour might have been an issue, but it only adds to the survivability and durability of the starships, so not sure what the argument would be there? As for "militant captains and crews", we ALREADY know they existed in Starfleet, so IMHO, that wouldn't have made any kind of difference either way, and that doesn't even consider that Section 21 would probably have facilitated such a process either way. Not ALL captains were morally consistent, as seen in Captain Ransom during Voyager's encounter with him, and we know that Garth of Izar was a combat strategist and we've seen multiple other captains in combat scenarios (Sisko himself was a combat officer). Admiral Picard would find himself amongst fewer of his age range in any case, because space exploration is dangerous, some of his friends might retire and go live on Federation member worlds (or perhaps even outside of the Federation) and depending on the missions of his closest friends, it might be YEARS before he sees any of them again. So, his peers might become fragmented all over the Federation (and beyond) - storytelling wise, that might isolate any support he might have for any issue he might want to pursue, or give him an extended range of influence/friend network (both within Federation space and beyond it), depending on which way a decent writer might want to take it.
@alexanderdeburdegala46094 ай бұрын
Sisko should have been court-maritaled over that Maquis incident, when I saw that episode the first time, my jaw fucking dropped, I couldn't believe it.
@killtheheretics29153 ай бұрын
Not really, the maquis early had done the same early in the episode
@drrohanjacob3 ай бұрын
@@killtheheretics2915U dont use a bio weapon against people who are technically your citizens to prove a point. That is just war crimes.
@stephendean28962 ай бұрын
The Dominion war was unavoidable and was dam near unwindable
@eliasmai61703 ай бұрын
Dominion war is a metaphor for war on terror.
@Hibbs4Prez3 ай бұрын
This video just makes me appreciate Sisko more for his complexity and flaws. Characterization like this is one reason why DS9 hold up better than TNG Utopia. The new shows didn’t pay attention to DS9 because they fall so far short in writing and setup.
@bgcvetan4 ай бұрын
That's why i love DS9. It is shameless and unexcuseable.
@neves50832 ай бұрын
Maybe it's because i'm younger but i really like the storytelling of the utopian organization that moved into an more darker posture after an trauma like the borg and the dominion as portrayed in star trek. If anything i feel it's talking about our own lives i really like it
@gdogg52474 ай бұрын
Fantastic vid, keep up the great work! :)
@zerospace1014 ай бұрын
DS9 was the most Human Star Trek other than Enterprise that showed Humanities true nature. Good and moral when in peace and not wanting, and everywhere in between including outright bad and evil choices when survival is at stake and desperation kicks in. Plays to the duality of our natures, I think this also contributes to why DS9 was so popular.
@alexanderdeburdegala46094 ай бұрын
I wonder what took the place of Section 31? Part of what made Section 31 so powerful was, that no one knew about, now that so many know about it, who is filling the void the left behind?
@toddrohrer86804 ай бұрын
I love that clip with riker
@sally16203 ай бұрын
Damn good video. It's gonna drive yur haters wild.🖖 The conclusion where you quoted Dickens was perfect.
@TerranceChilds-ui8nh4 ай бұрын
You have made another great video please let's have more
@lewisknight22263 ай бұрын
Great video!
@Jason-de9mq3 ай бұрын
Rules in war sound good on paper, but they always end up being what holds one side back from winning. War is a dirty, messy thing that we should never want. However, once in a war, you should seek to win it quickly. The side that wins will always find something to hold war crime trials against the losers.
@kbsweetssb46213 ай бұрын
No one goes to war and comes back the same! DS9 showed us what the Federation really was and not the colorful dream we let blind us!
@Charles-mu9ji3 ай бұрын
DS9 was and overall to me best starterk series. Best overall wrting and best actors that use become their characters
@JamesRoyceDawson4 ай бұрын
I say Good. DS9 admitted Starfleet was a military and a galaxy filled with independent powers with fleets of ships would be a dangerous one. The idea of those societies being utopias anywhere outside their cores would be politically illiterate
@sigmacademy4 ай бұрын
Utopias also don't exist. The fact that multiple groups exist in the same place (plus you are using the idea of freedom and liberty as a so-called "principle"), practically guarantees that conflict is an inevitability, preventing ANY form of utopia. On top of that, utopia chasing also leads to dystopias forming.
@Charlotte_Martel4 ай бұрын
I feel the exact same way. Roddenberry had a brilliant, hopeful vision for the 60s, but then we grew up and realised that the universe isn't all 🌈 and puppies. The later Treks reflect that maturity.
@christophersimmons74752 ай бұрын
I’m late to the party, In the Pale Moonlight is one of my favorite DS9 episodes! The Federation has always had pragmatic or morally grey characters, you decide which. The TNG episode Pegasus taught me that. There have also been those who, again either morally grey or evil, who have attempted to make secret deals to keep the status quo. See Star Trek: The Undiscovered Country. On a personal note, I watched season one of Discovery and thought it was garbage and never went back. I have not watched Picard or Lower Decks (one of my favorite TNG episodes) so I cannot speculate on what happened to the Federation.
@jayburn004 ай бұрын
I loved how you made use of Neil Patrick Harris's toy maker narration speech.
@LoreReloaded4 ай бұрын
Loved his character
@Blitzk123453 ай бұрын
I actually liked this series a great deal. Not sure how this could be hated by people.
@stopinventing10133 ай бұрын
Sisko was a criminal, but a damn good captain.
@Lonovavir4 ай бұрын
The Borg has something to do with it as well. Wolf 359, losing multiple colonies to them and having Earth directly assaulted in First Contact accelerated the militaristic turn. The Defiant class was originally made to combat the Borg before it was adopted to fight the Dominion.
@jessmith73244 ай бұрын
I would say it was the Borg thar changed them. Starfleet didnt start making dedicated warships until the first borg attack on earth. And if it wasnt for that, they would gotten run over by the dominion because they had no dedicated warships to bulk up and hold the line
@AT2Productions3 ай бұрын
I get where you're coming from, but there are in-universe/on-screen details that mess up the "it's the Dominion's fault" narrative. Discovery began its run nearly 100yrs before the Dominion War took place, and yet elements of the decay are there, same with SNW. Then add in the technological and aesthetic changes, it's more rational and lore respecting to have DSC, SNW, and PIC as alternate timelines that began with Enterprise. The event with splintered Enterprise into it's own timeline, the movie First Contact. Doing this will then bring most of the issues/discrepancies into a more cohesive view of the entire anthology. As for Lower Decks showing the healing and processing needed post-Dominion War, that I can agree with and accept as part of the prime timeline. In that show you still have a drive and desire to getting back to the scientific and diplomatic mission types instead of the war footing that Starfleet was on just prior.
@livetotell1003 ай бұрын
It's shear folly for ANY SciFi Space series to think that we will never find a species intent on Dominion. Sure be explorers, but also be prepared for battle. There will ALWAYS be a place for the Military.
@SSJCLIFF4 ай бұрын
Starfleet needed a kick in their complacency. The Borg were needed first, if it weren't for them, Starfleet wouldn't have had the warships it had to hold off the Dominion long enough to rally and eventually win. But the Dominion war really changed everything and it was needed. There is always a bigger fish, Starfleet won't ever forget that again and will actually be prepared for it in the future.
@Nobody_important_at_all4 ай бұрын
Civilians were not at risk, they had plenty of time to evacuate.
@LoreReloaded4 ай бұрын
Yea.. assuming no ship broke down or they couldn't get to an escape bay
@darkestwilightt27 күн бұрын
I love the new series, the darkness caused by the Dominion can lead to starfleet growing lighter again as time passes, it already has with the ending of Picard they've set it up for a new show primed for exploration
@williammiranda34054 ай бұрын
Some of star trek historical moments always changes their ideology but try to maintain old ways.
@StevenPrecourt2 ай бұрын
All those people died for Ben Sisko's ego. Mining the wormhole was illegal and totally outside his power.
@aztn194 ай бұрын
While this could work as an in-universe explanation, I felt that the newer Trek was affected more so by the real world audience’s expectations post-DS9 (and to an extent Enterprise & STO): the introduction of an exciting new villain race to war with. There are several YT channels dedicated to the ships’ combative abilities, rather than the various nuisances of the many alien species & cultures in Trek lore. I love your insights and outlooks to Trek events and story arcs, but I first find this very channel because of your breakdown of the Excelsior and Defiant classes of starship.
@jonathandonley32994 ай бұрын
I would counter that two attacks on Earth by the Borg was the first step towards Starfleet embracing a more militaristic style. It's fine to be altruistic and peace loving when no one's trying to kill you. But even the most pacifist human will pick up a weapon to keep themselves alive if need be. And, yes, sometimes good people do bad things to survive. It's nothing new. Also, it's not like Starfleet was all goodness and light prior to the Dominion war. It wasn't all that long ago that the Federation was on shaky ground with the Klingon Empire in Kirk's era. I would site the briefing scene in Star Trek VI as evidence that back then, Starfleet was half and half when it comes to exploration vs. warships. It's only natural that a society changes to fit the times they live in. The Dominion War left billions dead and more affected by the loss, not to mention the destruction of the sense of security that a long-lived peace gives a population. While Starfleet and the Federation as a whole was more peaceful in the past, the scars of war do not fade away easily.
@sigmacademy4 ай бұрын
03:38. Why exactly would transporter portals even be NECESSARY? When Picard and his female companion were beaming around, no "portal" was necessary, and to top it off, transporter pads would have been far more consistent to use than "door frames", because that would imply using Iconian technology. Also, the portals wouldn't be necessary, because Starfleet/civilian satellites in orbit would have the necessary sensors available to it to pinpoint any number of people on the planet, and do an almost instantaneous beam out (only potentially limited by its beaming capacity, as in the number of simultaneous people it can beam in or out, a problem we see in Starfleet ships as well). That would allow a person to beam ANYWHERE within the satellite's sensor/transporter range, and I would imagine certain beaming destinations would be off-limits to civilians, like Starfleet Command/Security/Intelligence/Medical/etc. buildings. 10:01. That seems a bizarre thing for her to say. First off, the Cardassians planted booby traps on DS9 when they abandoned it and Starfleet first came on board, and then Starfleet sabotaged the station when the Cardassians retook it - the DS9 crew also weren't above looting an abandoned Cardassian station when they needed something. There was a TOS series episode (I think) where Starfleet cleansed an entire world from an "deadly infection" from orbit (I think it was the TV series). I get that the writer was probably trying to add the real-world discussion of the ethical dilemma of using mines were in there that was relevant during that time in the world, but then going "we need it desperately, so screw ethics" seems like a realistic cop-out, but it leaves the consequences of such actions completely unanswered. 11:30. "You might not like the style of the new series, but you can't say it isn't Star Trek." Because it wasn't. The fact that the new series have been caught out multiple times not even knowing basic Trek facts in its writing proved that, and a generally universally loved Picard S3 clearly shows that. The fact that its bizarre defence of contradictions were nonsensical to even people who had LITTLE knowledge of Trek should be a good indicator of the level of BS people were expected to accept. The shows were being written by people with very SPECIFIC political reasons for putting messaging in the shows in the way they did - the person in charge of the franchise LITERALLY stated that it was what he was going to do with it, members from the creative teams in charge of the projects ADMITTED to it, and their "media allies" attacked Trekkies for YEARS of even having the mildest of disagreements about the shows, even when it was tech-related criticisms. The new shows RIGHTFULLY deserves their criticisms, because that was the environment THEY CHOSE to create right from the start.
@clinthoyt18554 ай бұрын
DS9 showed how the Federation began to lose its way thanks to a brutal war, so one might say that The Dominion and The Borg did Destroy the Federation in a way, it turned it into something that it was not meant to be in the Golden Age: a Military Organization.
@sigmacademy4 ай бұрын
Except, it DIDN'T "become" a "military organization", it was ALWAYS flexible enough to respond to issues and threats as it arose. Starfleet as a whole was a multi-functional organization (Starfleet Command, Starfleet Intelligence, Starfleet Security, Starfleet Medical, etc.) under the control of a multi-planet civilian government (the Federation), and the ships getting better offensive and defensive technologies doesn't make the organization any more "militaristic" than any nonprofit hiring security consultants to keep their teams safe in a warzone. The Federation (in the Prime timeline) was never a conqueror or invader (like the Klingons, Cardassians or Romulans), and as such calling it a "military organization" seems like a total misrepresentation of it as such, when you consider all those named examples SPECIFICALLY created martial societies and war economies.
@clinthoyt18553 ай бұрын
@@sigmacademy The Truth is that the Dominion War and the Burg attacks before it changed Starfleet. It is not until the Era of Pitcard and later on into the Fourth Millennium that Starfleet would get back to it's roots.
@lukedalton3 ай бұрын
@@clinthoyt1855 Starfleet military and scientific part had always coexisted and one is prevalent over the other depending of the general situation; period of peace bring out the explorers and the scientist while hard time bring out the military, the problem is if one period last too much and make one aspect too prevalent as it happend before the first Klingon war and before the Dominion War that happened at the tail end of long period of peace
@zerospace1014 ай бұрын
So the federation finally realized you can only have peace through strength. They were essentially the people before either World War and then the people after.
@anthonystone20893 ай бұрын
it is better for humanity to fight dirty and win than to loose to changelings that would enslave all solids just so they can swim around in each other forever.
@ChadZLumenarcus3 ай бұрын
Great video.
@pathfinderlight4 ай бұрын
Sisko didn't turn the Civilian Maquis into refugees to save a few Starfleet Officers, he did it as reprisal for the Militant Maquis actions. In reality, situations are messy so a little bit of grey area allows rules to be stated more succinctly, moral formation of Star Fleet officers being more important anyway.
@casbot713 ай бұрын
They should have had Eddington survive, have him surrender to Sisko in return for Sisko letting some other Marquis escape/survive/rescuing them. And then have Eddington reinstated by Starfleet when the Dominion war hotted up and became desperate. If Eddington was in on In the Pale Moonlight, oh how he would have gloated at Siskos moral falling and failing. He would have laughed out loud at Sisko hitting Garak and Sisko's moral outrage. "C'mom Ben..Benjamin, if you think it's so wrong why don't you inform the Romulan government. Ah I thought not. The difference between you and me? I don't lie to myself."
@Gohka4 ай бұрын
I actually like the slight hypocrisy of Sisko that you brought up. Not because I want to make some argument for why I think he was right, but because it shows his human side. Starfleet captains, especially after the likes of Picard, were seen as these infallible beacons of moral righteousness. It's nice to know that sometimes they CAN let their anger get the better of them and make decisions that we can say are wrong and maybe even the character themselves learn the choice was wrong also, just like a normal person.
@kainbellejangles4 ай бұрын
That's why I like Picard's breakdown both after The Best of Both Worlds and his rage in First Contact. I love Picard but those two moments were amazing for showing that everyone has their limits, even seemingly unflappable people like Picard
@Tonydjjokerit4 ай бұрын
I thought the Borg started it off! Especially what happened at Wolf 359!
@jeremiahmorris18524 ай бұрын
The Battle of Wolf 359 was like having a cinder block thrown through your living room window. It led to creation of the Sovereign, Defiant, Steamrunner and Nova classes. Still wasn't enough and now we have a militant Starfleet
@sigmacademy4 ай бұрын
That becomes more difficult to determine as time goes on, because with multiple "timeline contradictions" of when the Borg ACTUALLY encountered the Federation the first time, their impact on said space becomes harder to figure out.
@joestraw88704 ай бұрын
Arguably, the Cardassian Border wars - Benjamin Maxwell is a good example - saw the shift from an organisation dedicated to diplomacy and exploration; to a more martial stance. Even though those were third rate affairs, together with the Tzenkethi war, it still had a profound affect on the combatants like Sisko and O’Brien.