The “Dumb” Character That Isn’t Really Dumb

Let’s talk about the dumb character trope.
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Timestamps
0:00 Intro
1:34 Joey Tribbiani (Friends)
4:50 Cat Valentine (Victorious)
9:13 London Tipton (Suite Life)
14:02 Drake Parker (Drake and Josh)
17:44 Kevin Malone (The Office)
20:33 Flanderization
#victorious #friends #joeytribbiani #catvalentine #suitelifeofzackandcody #theoffice #drakeandjosh

[@satirical_snake]

I think Patrick Star would've been a good addition. His original character wasn't dumb, the entire joke was that he "lived under a rock." He was naive but not an idiot like he is now.

[@darksideofevil13]

Ooooh lol I never noticed that obvious rock joke.

[@XDeathwingSilenceX]

Agreed!

[@IzzyTrillz]

wow

[@mittag983]

Wow how was I so stupid I didn't see the obvious rock joke

[@BlackDiamond2718]

“We can filter the CO2 through our ballast tanks, refire the engine, and ride the shockwave out of here.” “Spongebob, I think she means it.” “He doesn’t want to play with us.” “Maybe he doesn’t like us.” (Newer episodes). “There is no right or wrong in those situations. There just is or there isn’t.”

[@billyb7852]

The Cat Valentine problem is definitely a Dan Schneider problem.

[@mylessmith9758]

She’s the worst one on the list, no fault of her own but solely cause of dirty Dan.

[@billyb7852]

@@mylessmith9758 it’s unfathomable honestly that they let that guy run wild for so long

[@Duke00x]

Yeah that is realistically the real explanation. But there is a change that the character is low key much more complex then people think. If you think about her seemly crazy home life her behaviors and changes may be caused by that. She may have been ignored or even criticized when she showed her intelligence at home making her hide it and act dumb to not be or maybe even praised and this made her feel she is more liked if she is/acts dumb and so she does so to be accepted and this behavior eventually may have continued into her life outside of her home. Plus there is a possibility that she psychologically age regressed as a copping mechanism to deal with her home life thus explaining her later child like behavior. And with the regression or at least partial regression she doesnt see her more sexual way of dressing in a sexual manner because she has regressed in meny ways to a mental age before too young to see sexuality. Again. These are just possibilities and just broad rough explanations of psychological conditions that have similar results not an actual exact explanation of her possible conditions. And if something like this is the explanation then the character is not the dumb character we see on the surface but is actually a very complex and very damaged character. But again most likely you are right and her character is only like that to fit some fetish the producer has. But I am just saying there could maybe much more to the character hidden.

[@loyloygeralde554]

​@@Duke00x Or you know.... the producer had a thing for minors and wanted to see her more of her doing sexual acts disguise as a dumb teen. You're looking way too far into it that doesn't need to be that deep.

[@Chxrry_Ocean]

i hope if they do a reboot since he wont be writing it they just write cat like they did in the 1st season

[@cwcpants140]

Kat being more sexualized is so creepy knowing what we know about dan schneider. I lowkey feel bad for her tbh

[@TeruteruBozusama]

Same, some are angry at her for not talking against him and "staying on his side", I'm hopefully wrong, but it seems like she has been groomed honestly....

[@ticketyboo2456]

Who's Dan Schneider and what he do?

[@cwcpants140]

@@ticketyboo2456 long fucking story tbh dan is a Nickelodeon show writer. lol uhhh short story is “dan has a foot fetish and sexualized children” and a slightly longer story/theory is that he got Jamie Lynn Spears pregnant while she was on Zooey 101. There are tons of videos out there that go more in depth, but moral is dan is a disgusting pedophile

[@cwcpants140]

@@TeruteruBozusama if she wanted to continue work as an actress, she had NO CHOICE. The actress who played Tori Vega was blacklisted from hollywood for not submitting to the creepy advances. Sam was written out of iCarly for similar reasons and whens the last time you heard people talking about Jennette McCurdy? Ariana was 100% groomed. Miranda Cosgrove was able to escape unscathed it seems but that whole industry is disturbing ngl

[@notatallfunctional]

⁠​⁠@@cwcpants140 When was Sam “written out of Icarly”? If you’re referring to the reboot, then you really don’t know what you’re talking about. The reasons why Jennette doesn’t act anymore is very much public information. Dan is definitely a creep, but speculating about the lives of the actresses with so little information is definitely in bad taste.

[@bobthebox2993]

I like how in Avatar The Last Airbender, Sokka kinda had the opposite happen. To be fair, he never really got portrayed as dumb as any of the characters in this video, but as the show went on, you can clearly see he makes less and less dumb decisions and ends up as the strategist of the group.

[@dfabulous]

Yeah Sokka was just a jokester, not really dumb. He matured and got a little more serious as the show went on, but he still cracked jokes every now and then.

[@kiraoshiro9251]

he was emotionally dumb but otherwise intelligent opposite to his sister, emotionally mature but a bit naive

[@khadeejones1136]

Yep, Sokka underwent character development rather than deterioration, but while ATLA was funny and playful, being a comedy was never its primary genre. When the story is the primary focus rather than comedy, character development becomes a lot more necessary. I think the reason why sitcoms have characters that progressively get dumber is actually pretty straightforward: when writing comedy, they often need a character to say dumb things for gags. If they didn't already write a dumb character into the show from the beginning, they delegate this role to the least intelligent character, and they keep doing this episode after episode, so that after a few seasons, the character is just as dumb as fictionally possible. I'm not sure if we even have to view the dumbification of sitcom characters as a prioritization of humor over plot as always a bad thing. If Kevin from 'The Office' never reached peak levels of absurdity, we would never have that iconic 'Why waste time say lot word when few word do trick?' scene. Was the less dumb version of Cat Valentine's character honestly all that much better? The scene where, completely unaware she is being watched by others, she walks up to a vending machine, buys a soda, turns around, and drops it in the trash as straight-faced as ever while Jade just stares in utter disbelief, is honestly hilarious, and we wouldn't have that without that comedic deterioration. Writing can be amazing when everything is effortful and intentional, but sometimes lazy writing is just fun.

[@pikapi6993]

Sokka basically grew up.

[@RusticRonnie]

That was the plot from the start, he grew up and start to change his views on basically everything while also becoming more confident. And Netflix is taking that aspect of the character away in the live action remake

[@moppenboek]

Seeing a character get stupid over time is kind of creepy in a way. It feels alarming. Like someone terrible has happened to them.

[@wotermelon_]

Basically all of Marvel :(

[@ConquestadorExplore]

Someone?

[@AugustCrossroads]

​@@wotermelon_When was marvel not dumb?

[@wotermelon_]

@@AugustCrossroads As much as people like to hate Marvel (a common phenomenon, "edgy" people hate popular things, for example, Fortnite, Starbucks, Taylor Swift) the older movies like Iron Man 1 and 2, Winter Soldier, Civil War and Guardians of the Galaxies are very good movies.

[@somejerk5662]

​@AugustCrossroads It used to be the "big blasty fun action comedy movie" kind of dumb. Now It's the "crew has no real skills but plenty of axes to grind against the source material and the audience" kind of dumb.

[@legoboy468]

Cosmo from fairly odd parents is the epitome of this trope, he started our street smart but just became dumber than a box of rocks.

[@thekernel69]

Cosmo as a character was really ruined by flanderization cause I remember an interview with Butch Hartman at the start of the series describing Cosmo as a street smart car salesman like character

[@SirBlackReeds]

If anything, Wanda was the ditzy one at the start.

[@TJ_zz7264zz]

It's also just like Cat where you can tell how far gone they are by the pitch of their voice. Early Cosmo (especially the pilot) was borderline a smooth car salesman and by the time poof was a think he was 3 octaves up and empty headed

[@mittag983]

​@@SirBlackReedsYes Wanda was the moralistic motherly a little ditzy one she also had humor unlike in later seasons

[@Phentes]

Ik bro I miss the old Cosmo. He wasn’t even dumb. He was just street smart and he was actually funny. Not stupid funny but like legitimately funny. I liked his voice so much better then. Even though it’s the same voice actor, he just changed his voice. And you can actually see the love between him and Wanda in the earlier seasons where Wanda would have ditzy moments. I miss it so much.

[@theodorebear6714]

I prefer the jack sparrow trope where the character is clearly not as intellegent as they try to convince other characters they are but then they continue to get outrageously lucky to the point where you realize their persistence and over estimated self importance is their real skill.

[@fateenshajahan818]

Or that's what he wants you to think

[@phuocluong3719]

Jack sparrow is the opposite of the trope you mentioned, he is very capable and intelligent but always appear dumb so people underestimate him. At least that what he was in the trilogy, until he was dumb down to lucky character trope in latest installment. He outsmarted all of the villains in the first 3, like stealing the coin to make him immortal and remove the curse to kill Barbossa, or tricking Davy to reveal the key to steal it.

[@dulcesvero]

OMG, Yess!!!! Buggy from one piece fits that so well

[@swiftsage3456]

​@@phuocluong3719honestly hate what they did to Jack, he was a coveted and calculating genius only for him to be watered down do a ditz with dumb luck

[@breawycker]

That's called Obfuscating Stupidity or Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass

[@andrewhattaway2220]

Honestly you could argue that Homer Simpson is also a victim of this. In the first season he wasn't super stupid and he had more heart for his family. But as the show went on he would care less and less about his family. Its really sad to see.

[@AndreasKitzing1337]

Absolutely. The most notable shift occured in season 10, when together with Homer, they dumbed down the entire show. Initially, many of The Simpson's jokes were just - relatively subtle - satirical takes on the average American family. This got very much replaced by "Homer / Bart being stupid and doing stupid things" or satire that is much more in your face (mostly Lisa). I imagine the latter is much easier to write, especially after you run out of material used in the earlier episodes. I still liked the first seasons much more.

[@MyRegardsToTheDodo]

Homer also doesn't face any consequences for his actions anymore.

[@ZipplyZane]

He is, but it's also a bit different. In Homer's case, it seems that he had to change because the sitcom trope he was parodying changed. Originally, he was basically the opposite of the "father knows best" archetype. He was the naive guy who learned a lesson. But other sitcoms started doing that, so Homer became the type who doesn't learn his lesson. And thus he keeps getting dumber.

[@YehudiNimol]

Peter griffin too... He used to be a family guy :(

[@quangamershyguyyz7166]

⁠@@MyRegardsToTheDodoThat’s not really true, he does get punished for his actions in several episodes.

[@CranjisMcBuckets]

max russo is my favorite example because he goes from regular little brother to dumb, but then later admits hes just faking being dumb so no one would believe him if he said hes a wizard

[@bostonrailfan2427]

that revelation works with the others as much as him…minus the wizard part. playing up the dumbness so others underestimate you works for them, especially when it comes to getting out of work

[@stephenrichter8940]

Kevin from the office has a few special things that indicate that he's really smart towards the end of the show. One of them is the fact that he is part of a cover band in a way that the actor himself explained would require basically being a savant. There are also little moments like after the basketball game that indicate that there is definitely more than what he is letting on.

[@symptomofsouls]

@@bostonrailfan2427 Literally Rodrick's Rule

[@prashantrajbhikshu]

Max is 3 step ahead of everyone

[@summernes3563]

What episode was that?

[@sunanimoon]

i swear the change in drake's character was because josh lost weight and subsequently became less awkward and more successful with girls so they needed to dial up drake's stupid to contrast their characters further

[@CaitAlexandria]

You what, I never thought about that until now. You’re so right. I remember the switch up being so drastic for his character.

[@groovy7521]

thats actually such a clever observation

[@nibrie4090]

That’s a good point

[@susanstorm7910]

No. We do not support Drake Bell, he’s a creep

[@revolvingworld2676]

Probably I never noticed it but looking back yeah he did become dumber

[@emily_is_fine]

Another example of this is Emma from the show Jessie. When we first meet her she is making an impressive solar system diorama and has no problem getting good grades, but soon she can't even do basic addition. It always makes me sad

[@Bluelight802]

im pretty sure it was luke who couldnt do basic addition, but emma didnt even know there were 8 planets by the end of the show Edit: Wasnt paying attention while writing this comment and accidentally said 15 instead of 8. It was emma who thought there were 15 planets

[@sidvacant9382]

I loved Jessie so much my god, I'm surprised people don't talk about it as much...

[@christinavernon2277]

Emma and Luke

[@JoelTheParrot]

It's interesting how often an example of "These two characters have different kinds of smarts" gets simplified to "Smart and not smart" due to how linear intelligence is seen by much of society

[@tenpintsofsundrop]

What really gets me about Joey is that in the first episodes, he is smart enough that he is explaining words and concepts to other characters, but by season 10, he can't even spell the word BABY. He says to Chandler and Monica "you can't have S E X in front of the B A B I E" and the joke is supposed to be "Haha. Joey dumb. He can't spell simple words". But if that happened to someone irl - where their intelligence degraded THAT much - you would probably take them to the doctor and get them tested for a brain tumor

[@buxflee7636]

The episode where phoebe is teaching him french was also.. concerning

[@L1am21]

Babie is acceptable where I'm from.

[@ember9361]

@@buxflee7636 hilarious! But, yes, concerning. Friends is my comfort show and I still prefer asshole Joey from early season 1!

[@bostonrailfan2427]

it sucked and was annoying, especially as Phoebe was in the same role…

[@AgnessaMo]

And to think that early on HE was the one to guess "The Unbearable Lightness of Being" on Pictionary...

[@klovor]

London was meant to be dumb london and maddie were originally cast for the opposites roll but they thought it would be funny to make a dumb asian and a super smart blonde. also the london tipton ending scene always makes me cry.

[@alli457]

It wasn't that they thought it was funny, it was because the super smart Asian and dumb blonde tropes were overdone.

[@ClashBluelight]

@@alli457 And so the inverse would be funny.

[@ghoultooth]

@@alli457Thus the opposite would be funny…

[@alexisschiffer4830]

⁠​⁠​⁠@@alli457no, that’s the point. subverting tropes in a SITCOM is often funny.

[@kaydgaming]

And that’s why London is an icon

[@sleepyghostgirl]

London's goodbye with moseby never fails to make me cry 😭

[@k.tempany]

Stop!!!! when she rings him straight away crying had my heart hurting

[@TheFiteShow]

i was literally replaying it in my head while watching it in this video but i still got misty eyed

[@PhirePhlame]

I didn't fully understand London's whole arc and character as a kid, but yeah, it's pretty clear that Mr. Tipton may have been her father, but Mr. Moesby was her dad. Really, those two characters embody a very similar juxtaposition to what London herself has with Maddie, as well as embodying the two ways she could go with her mentality, the genuine connection vs the material wealth being used as a substitute for that.

[@hman9869]

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[@hippo440]

my personal headcanon for cat is that she noticed that people seemed to like her more and be nicer to her when she was clueless so she just hyped it up. like in that clip where she actually says something smart and andre points it out and she literally apologizes and gets anxious, she's scared that they don't like her. and it's not like it doesn't work, the entire group is overall nicer to her in season 3 but in season 1 everyone just agreed that "cat has problems".

[@katiecat9353]

That's actually a very insightful theory

[@nightmare674]

Probably not what the writters intended but it is a nice theory, it does happen a lot.

[@clarissa3173]

Good theory. Makes me think of the tend and befriend theory in the fight vs flight conversation.

[@celestedivine131]

I mean she had a fucked up brother and probally her whole childhood too

[@Duke00x]

Yeah a lot of cats behavior and change can be explained by her seemingly very bad home life. She may have even psychologically age regressed as a copping mechanism to deal with it. It could also have caused her to act in the way you said. She could possibly be criticized at home regularly any time she shows intelligence. That could cause her to act dumb to not be and this could continue into her life outside of her home. There is a chance that the Cat character is low key much more complex then people think.

[@PierreGasly10]

I think it’s always because most shows base it solely on being dumb and as seasons progress they can only develop their character in the dumber direction and never think to make them have a hobby or something to make them more interesting like in s1 cat had textiles hobbies but then completely integrated it in season 2

[@limp6129]

Which is what new girl did with Winston. He got a cat. And bird shirts.

[@jayekisses]

Well Cat & Drake loved performing. Cat loved doing makeup & singing. Drake was a musician. So they did have hobbies.

[@YourRulerKingDedede]

I love how the exact opposite happend to patrick

[@donalddarko5807]

I think you're onto something. As I watched it I thought about anime which has a lot of dumb characters. These characters are often dumb because they legitimately never even went to school. One thing I noticed while thinking is that there aren't a lot of instances where the characters get dumber since they usually have more to their characters than being dumb. Luffy and Goku are both great examples. They both while still being dimwits mature and grow throughout their series. Goku actually regressed a lot in Dragon Ball Super when the writers decided to make him being stupid a center point of his character.

[@gred_and_forge]

Its been forever since i watched Victorious, but i feelnlike S1 Cat had more personality than just being the stereotypical airhead character. Even her voice changed. I remember her sounding more expressive before they cemented her as the airhead of the group, then her voice was slower, almost sounding like she was always sick. I know i kept referring to her as an airhead but her voice seemed to have an airy quailty to it, if that makes sense

[@clarissa3173]

I grew up watching these shows and I actually remember a girl in my year group when I entered high school specifically modelled some of her personality on Cat from victorious. Not just a guess btw, she told me herself. I think her younger mind saw Cat getting all the attention (which was actually just sexualisation) in the show and thought that personality was the most desirable to guys (as shown in the show) so she moulded her own in Cats’ image. There were many moments when the poor girl made an absolute fool out of herself as a result, and that’s me using generous language. I saw a fair few examples like this. Nickelodeon and Disney have so much to answer for.

[@paullopez2021]

Ariana herself modeled her personality based on Cat too, for a while. So that's not surprising to hear.

[@tango4484]

augh ik someone in my class who's been acting like this for a while, she would act dumb on purpose and move around like a drunken two yr old

[@BygoneT]

I'm sorry, they made a show that dumb teens decided to emulate and so it's their fault?

[@cammoore___]

Bonus example: Scully And Hitchcock, from Brooklyn Nine-Nine. They are similar to Kevin, in that they started as background characters and developed into dumb guys. However, they sometimes were super smart, for example the Season 6 episode "Ticking Clocks"

[@rayxtime]

I loved how their main trait of always sitting on their ass sometimes became surprisingly useful for tasks related to sitting on your ass.

[@daliam8715]

I actually find Jake to be an example of this but not necessarily to this extreme of dumbness. At the start he was a bit of a child, but also a bit of a genius and super good at his job. As the show went on, they made his become worse and worse at his job. At least this is how it felt watching for me.

[@franciscoancer2618]

I wouldn't consider Hitchcock and Scully to be examples, I think Brooklyn Nine Nine establishes early on in the first season that Hitchcock and Scully are dumb, and that the only times when they are smart is when its related to their lazy lifestyle that they love because that is the only time they actually want to put any effort.

[@ShabnaFarooque]

​@@daliam8715 Jake becomes more mature as the show goes on.

[@strelitziamystery21]

​@ShabnaFarooque I mean he did get more mature but he seemed to get kinda bad at his job in the last season. Like when Jake was suspended for five months after making a wrongful arrest on a case he was let go from or actively giving Doug Judy a pin or something so he could break out.

[@maddiesharpe7118]

The best dumb character who started out dumber than they ended up is Jason from the good place. The writers actually evolved his character in a good way without ruining his silly, childish and innocent personality. By the end it was immense wisdom that he gained and it only added to his character

[@Samurai_XIII]

That was (supposedly)explained as him pretending to be someone else. He doesn't seem smart enough to do that but I think we r supposed to be he was helped by Micheal and Co with regards to Tahani or something of the like.

[@maddiesharpe7118]

@@Samurai_XIII he was definitely stupid before pretending to be Jianu. Literally look at the way he died. Or any of his flashbacks. He’s like unbelievably stupid before even getting to the good place

[@jdchy6181]

its the way they didnt make him dumb-ER over the seasons compared to these other characters - jason’s always remained fun & the same level of dumb the whole time but overcame his impulsiveness which was his main problem

[@maddiesharpe7118]

@@jdchy6181 yeah that’s what I said. I’m saying he started out dumber and gained all of this wisdom by the end. The point is that he’s a GOOD example of the “dumb” character trope. The writers did a good job with him in comparison to the characters in this video.

[@henloworld514]

yesss he’s one of my favorite characters in tv!

[@hannahbun]

I think the most believable dumb character who keeps getting dumber is Charlie Kelly from Always Sunny. Because he keeps literally drinking paint and he's usually drunk.

[@user-lf3ny3xq7y]

Hey, we have the same name!

[@kaylaisnothere4397]

Not to mention eating sunscreen lol.

[@donalddarko5807]

And there's a running hag where he uses his status as an idiot to is advantage. The most known version is the one where the gang is trying to talk him out if something dumb Charlie wants to do and Charlie acts like he's not paying attention or suddenly forgets English lol. The "I don't think he like gets us" scenes.

[@KookShanty]

Also the central premise of the show is watching these people deteriorate into full on filth. The whole point of the show is wondering how they somehow can function at all

[@swimmingmide]

He isn't really dumb though. He is illiterate, and possibly dyslexic. He has written several songs including an elaborate musical. He is the only member of the gang that can cook. Everything he does tends to have an internal logic to support it. In the therapy episode the doctor remarks that he is dealing with his environment very well when you account for his mental health issues and abusive social network. He also seems to be the only happy member of the gang.

[@jasper265]

My favorite line from Cat was "did you know mirror has six letters and half of them are r's?" She said this pretty much at random in the middle of other people having a conversation. I like the idea that her attention slipped from the conversation, she either noticed this thing about a word, or remembered noticing it earlier or being told about it earlier, and wanted to share it with the group. That's relatable to me. And while the statement isn't particularly smart, dumb people don't care about things like that in my experience, so it does hint at a smart person.

[@TheDuzx]

Flanderization is also just easy as you bring in more people to write. The first season is a writer's passion project that they've worked on for a long time, but following seasons don't have that amount of control usually because you bring in more people and have schedules so you can't oversee every detail to get the character right.

[@Bluelight802]

yeah i feel like this is the definitely the case with characters like chelsea daniels from thats so raven

[@jamesrawlins735]

Sometimes its for the better. Take Stuart from The Big Bang Theory. Season1 and 2 he is relatively normal (he even goes out with Penny) but they started making him more and more pathetic. The reality is without that change he would have been pretty forgettable - but he became the top secondary character and appeared in a lot more episodes than he would of if the writers hadn't changed him.

[@andrewgin9478]

With London, it helps that she always keeps a certain amount of depth to her character. Even in her dumbest appearances she still drops tons of witty one-liners and there's the underlying idea that her personality is a coping mechanism for her neglectful family. Her relationship with Moseby is one of my favorites in kids' entertainment, it manages to be so sweet and charming while still being really funny.

[@iantaakalla8180]

It also helps that London is also consistently dumb. London is always dumb because she is a wealthy girl who can spend her way to victory, not because she lacks basic living skills, or is deeply ignorant or deeply naive. She is just the rich girl, and even then is not just that.

[@ninjanibba4259]

Plus Brenda’s performance saves a lot

[@BaronVonDergner]

Thanks to London I can't not call my car's automatic transmission a PRNDL anymore lmao

[@CrystalLovesChrist]

Her “dumbness” really mostly comes from the fact that she skipped school wayyy too often when you think about it. In the first series, Zack & Cody, there’s an episode where her dad transfers her to Maddy’s school bc she’s failing or smthg and it’s only so bad bc she only goes to school like twice a week. If her dad was more invested in her education before, not until it affected him, she lowkey wouldn’t even be dumb. Maybe still naive to what non wealthy people experience but not outright stupid the way she’s protrayed. Kinda shows how her father’s business ventures & work mattering more than his role as a parent affected her tbh 1:53

[@versuzzero5335]

I didn't think London was that dumb. Maybe just lazy to do things she doesn't like. But she is a genius at chess in that one episode...

[@TraceysShadow]

Britta from Community is the perfect example of a character who started "normal" and slowly became a cartoon character

[@kite2778]

why did this happen

[@explodingmangos3416]

No I think about that all the time! Britta was one of my favorites at the beginning of the show but then she regressed so much? She had so much more depth at the beginning

[@cameliaminculeasa8288]

Honestly, most of the characters of the show regressed so much, to the point in which I couldn’t really continue. And Annie was starting to get the Cat Valentine treatment, with her becoming extremely childish (she even threw a tantrum on top of a desk) while simultaneously being sexualised. Britta was pretty smart and ambitious, and the next season she was dumb af and had no idea about the world.

[@uaenruotel]

@@explodingmangos3416 I think the trope they were going for at the beginning would have been too boring for what the show eventually became, I like that they kind of indicate that her behaviour at the beginning was a facade that falls apart quickly once you get to know her. Its her idealized self she pretends to be.

[@kyleellis1825]

Britta's OG character arc was to end up with JEff. Her boring personality didn't work without that and just made her unlikable in the second half of S1.@@uaenruotel

[@StuartGelin]

I think the Cat example is one where they originally wrote her as a completely unsustainable character. The gag of quickly going back and forth between emptions is funny a few times but would have gotten old really quickly if they hadn't made it a small part of a larger more standard trope like the childish dumb character. Also its kind of crazy seeing those old clips i completely forgot it was ariana grande until you said her name.

[@KellieValentine]

I’m glad you mentioned Chelsea from That’s So Raven cause that’s who I immediately thought of when I saw this video. Watching her go from a normal girl to so dumb that I don’t know how she’s keeping herself alive was truly baffling to me growing up 😂😢

[@ForrestFox626]

I felt Raven's Home fixed her a bit

[@lynnettekayla900]

This troupe also happened with Spencer in the ICarly show. Like at the beginning of the show, Spencer is Carly's older brother, who is also her guardian. And he is suppose to be the spontaneous/creative type. It is even mentioned in the show how he left law school to become an artist. And as the seasons past, Spencer becomes so stupid. Like to the point you question how he could have been a guardian to his younger sister in the first place. Some could possibly argue that since the show was in Carly's perspective, as she got older, her brother seemed to get more dumb to her. But by the time it was in the final season, it was almost like he should have been in a mental institution. I think this did a huge disservice to Spencer character and it kinda made ICarly hard to watch back then.

[@icohen1627]

He didn't come of as dumb to me. He came of as childish not dumb

[@chocomin5059]

When it comes to flanderization, I think a good example is Eric from Boy Meets World. I always think about how much he changed mid season from smart and preppy to moronic and crazy. Especially in the later seasons, cuz they really liked making him brain dead and obnoxious and even gave him this weird obsession with Mr Feeny.

[@Tronn9672]

I’m currently watching girl meets world for the first time, I’ve never seen boy meets world but I’ll check out some episodes

[@chocomin5059]

@@Tronn9672 Good luck watching GMW, I can’t stomach that show anymore, not after the autism episode

[@anokartist2352]

You know what? You're exactly right! I guess I never properly processed that before...

[@mosalacommodore6993]

Feeenay fee hee heenay.

[@sherbert1321]

Eric was EXTREMELY flanderized, but I think in his case it's interesting because it was mostly due to Will Friedle finding his footing as an actor and comedian. He talks about it on their podcast Pod Meets World, but he felt very uncomfortable in the first season, like he didn't know what he was doing and didn't have a good grasp on his character. Then he requested to do a scene with Mr Feeny, which was how the episode with Feeny's niece (?) came to be. Eric had a great comedic moment in that episode of him tossing a bag of soil away and making some random noise that Will just came up with to make it funnier because he didn't know what else to do, and that was when the whole acting thing clicked for him. From then on he got more comfortable with his character, and tried to push the boundaries further and further to how funny he could be. And the crew loved it, so they just let him keep doing that until we ended up with the Eric we got in the latest seasons. Sorry if you already knew all this I just find it fascinating. Beyond that, I do think it went too far in the 7th season, because that was right after the Tommy arc, and after rewatching the show for the third time I made this weird realization that Tommy leaving kind of... broke Eric. Like yes on a meta level it's just the writers writing what they think is funny and Will Friedle having fun, but in the world of Boy Meets World, Eric just went through a huge internal struggle with losing Tommy, and so he decided to cut his hair, reinvent himself, and stop caring about anything around him. It's kind of... sad. Especially because everyone around him just rolls their eyes at his stupidity and don't stop to ask him if he's doing alright after everything he went through. I'm glad he got to reunite with Tommy in Girl Meets World.

[@chuggajr]

This is just classic Flanderization. The characters start with the few jokes about how they’re dumb, but they eventually become only that joke.

[@jillynoelle8567]

Someone told me once that sitcoms are designed to make characters grow more extreme as time goes on because we get desensitized to their original traits, so writers feel the need to remind you “they’re the dumb one” by finding newer, more extreme ways to portray them as dumb. Britta in Community is a great example

[@MisterM2402]

Britta from Community. At one point, Jeff says to her "You seemed smarter than me when I met you", as a reference to her character being fairly different in the pilot/earlier seasons.

[@mattiejam]

She's another prime example of complex character with potential for growth and was actively growing a bit (like in s1 she talked about how she cared more about people seeing her as a good activist than actually doing things), and then they ignored all that because dumb+funny just is easier I guess

[@Phentes]

That’s honestly the reason i stopped watching that show. She was my favorite I always thought they dumbed down her character but as soon as I heard Jeff say that I knew it was confirmed and I stop watching the show after that she just got so bad.

[@williamapple7705]

Idk, I kind of liked that and it’s decently explained in the show. Britta herself never says she was smart or worldly, she just put on a persona of intelligence and worldliness because she wanted a cause to fight for, a reason to be passionate. She’s still a good character, but Jeff is right. Of course she seemed more intelligent before he got a chance to know her, there was never any substance underneath and there’s actual growth for her to be honest about that and comfortable around her friends. Maybe it just wasn’t what you wanted from the character, but I don’t think it is in any way inconsistent.

[@deetvleet]

i read that progression as Britta becoming more comfortable and open around her friends. being able to be goofy and silly and say outlandish things occasionally. She's not dumber, she doesn't make poor life decisions or anything like that.

[@djsoo]

​@@deetvleet she makes some pretty poor life decisions tho - "You know, you are a very generous friend. But you're really stupid with your money." I think a lot with Britta's change was Gillian discovering her goofy side and it coming through in her performance - so the writers leaned into it.

[@yinyangyt8749]

Not gonna lie I liked Cat’s older self better than what she is most known for. Not only does she sound more like a person but she’s only energetic

[@oooh19]

Her voice sounded so breathy it was so weird not funny

[@IzzyTrillz]

@@oooh19i kinda liked it as a kid lol, she changed octaves so much it was like she had different personalities

[@sirmel11]

I think it was weird how they tried to play her as the unattractive loser early on. It just did not work with her looks.

[@Azurethewolf168]

@@sirmel11bro all the actors for sitcoms are attractive people so it just does not work

[@sirmel11]

@@Azurethewolf168 Not every actor in a sitcom is attractive.

[@nit0134]

Jerry from Wizards of Waverly Place (the dad) was also like this, its one of the biggest contrasts too. He originally was very smart, and once in a while said something dumb, but very rarely. But he taught classes, taught his kids lessons, was a good father. 2nd season he started being a little bit more of a comic relief and by the 3rd turns into a full on very dumb person. This happens to Max also. He was just a dumb kid, and them goes on to full on 0 braincells.

[@gonkillua14]

that scene with london calling mosby cause shes gonna miss him made cry instantly

[@MysterySteve]

Damn, I forgot most of how those old Disney and Nick shows went, but that call followed by "I'm gonna miss you" just sucker punched me from zero to waterfall face in like one second

[@Nightswarmer]

I don't actually remember seeing this episode, but as soon as she said "I'll call you if I have a problem," I remembered what was coming and got tears in my eyes

[@NeblaX51]

I think Patrick and SpongeBob are the biggest examples of ruining characters for the sake of jokes. There have been amazing moments in the later season of the shows, but their original personalities are basically different people

[@basty_gaming5750]

Like, they arenʼt that *dumb* and have smart humor for the first three seasons of the show

[@ezfree.z651]

while they did make him stupider and stupider down the line, he was always dumb. he literally lived under a rock, like that was a big part of the character lol

[@NeblaX51]

@@ezfree.z651yea, but I prefer the more tame stupidity in the beginning, and before him and SpongeBob weren’t just dumber then infants

[@GorgoReptilicus]

You’ve also described the polarization of our political arena in the USA. We can no longer have a candidate or representative or even a concept of an idea that is well rounded - we must have an extreme caricature brought before us on the court of public opinion

[@kraftyevan]

You know the interesting thing about dim-witted people is that they are often very smart in other ways. As a DnD player I like to categorize it as people being high wisdom or high intelligence, usually "dumb" people are simply those with gaps in knowledge. I have a friend who is an aerospace engineering student but thought Kentucky was a place in Turkey (yes really) and also didn't know what a vibrator was (he's 22). TV fosters all of the tropes into episodes making these characters learning disabled rather than just "dumb", I personally met a girl that reminded me a lot about Cat from Victorious, strong mood swings and really really airheaded, but she was clever and witty person that was able to navigate through life in anything non-academic. "Dumb" people are everywhere, but the unbelievably dumb has to be carefully written as gaps in knowledge/experience to be believable. I think f the clip from friends where Joey thinks "Omnipotent" was actually "Impotent" was a great example of how to write a character being dumb.

[@jwoolman5]

Of course, the only way to mistake the word omnipotent for impotent is to actually know the meaning of impotent. Not so dumb...

[@shark_bee]

I hate what they did to Cat honestly. In the first season, as a neurodivergent person, she was relatable, and they could have done more with her trauma- then they took the “easy” way, and just made her the dumbest possible. Also like you pointed out, they made her act like a child but also she’s the most sexualised. Weird

[@aliaaaafr]

I'm also neurodivergent, and growing up I rlly liked cat bc I thought I could relate to her a bit. But the way she just started acting more and more childish as a way to be sexualized is just rlly gross...

[@Suzume175]

I blame Dan Schneider for all the weird shit that went on with Nickelodeon.

[@zellrang]

what is neurodivergent?

[@Suzume175]

@@zellrang The best way to describe it is it's someone who's brain is typically structured differently which results in a "divergence." Hence the term neurodivergent. This can mean pretty much a wide variety of differences both beneficial and detrimental, from someone who's considered neurotypical. Examples can be a variety of mental or learning disorders, above average memory or intelligence, and so on. Some common Psychological conditions that are commonly considered neurodivergent are Autism, ADHD, Down's Syndrome, and so on.

[@zellrang]

@@Suzume175 this reply is from 5 days ago, and I just got notified now...? KZbin, DO YOUR JOB!! why does replies notification sometimes comes late... but anyway thanks for the explanation, Suzume175

[@Not_Always]

Sister, Sister did the opposite. Tamera started out as the goofy, not-so-smart twin, then by the end of the show she is in the same University as Tia and doing all the same stuff that she is. I feel that that is a much more natural progression of teens to young adults. We usually don't get dumber as time goes on.

[@silverwriter6739]

I always appreciated that about Sister, Sister. Though I feel like Lisa got a little dumber as the show went on. But then again, it's been forever since I've watched it.

[@symptomofsouls]

I went from being a gifted kid to mentally disabled in 3 years it happens

[@Not_Always]

@@symptomofsouls Maybe you were never gifted to begin with? That's also possible.

[@symptomofsouls]

@@Not_Always I wouldn't have made it as far as I did if I wasn't. I didn't try in school because I was bored, and because I coasted until high school I never learned how to study

[@dfabulous]

@@symptomofsouls that doesn't equate to mentally disabled. You were just unchallenged your whole life and never learned how to study and apply yourself. Same here. Went to Georgia Tech and got my behind kicked for about three years until I figured it out.

[@sleepingismyaesthetic]

I've thought about this trope so much, you put it into words perfectly. Sitcom characters starting out somewhat grounded as real people and then devolving/slowly becoming more and more caricature-like as the show continues happens constantly. Troy and Britta both devolve in different ways throughout Community, Mac in Always Sunny is unrecognizable compared to who he was in season one and part of it is narratively explained but it feels really watered down compared to what these characters used to be. Schmidt and Winston from New Girl are another example I think but in different ways because they aren't dumbed down, just caricatures of people compared to how they are at the start of their respective shows. I think it's still really entertaining so I'm not complaining per se because so many iconic and hilarious moments came from these changes, and the caricature aspect of characters is part of what makes sitcoms work as they find their rhythm and nuance, but it's a really interesting thing to do a deep dive of. Loved this video!!

[@natsukashi2753]

12:36 refering to the gear shift as “prndl “ got me in a lot of trouble with my dad when he was teaching me to drive

[@bean8220]

Chelsea from That’s So Raven is another pretty good example. I remember her being a smart, hippy, responsible character. Then as the show progressed, she just became so stupid and began losing her common sense.

[@baxatakbaxatak2014]

She and Drake from Drake & Josh devolved into Special Education by the end.

[@arouila]

so real! she literally ran for student body president, and her speech was amazing?

[@Alex_Barbosa]

She was always smart and responsible, just a nit airheaded. I liked that she could be both because I know people in real life like that. It's charming. And it's nice to know that they are reliable when you need them.

[@lochana___]

honestly i was always called dumb and stupid when i was younger, and seeing london and cat say things i would ask regularly really made me feel seen 🥰

[@franknfurter5336]

me with brittany from glee

[@biaA1303]

@@franknfurter5336 You also thought you were pregnant after seeing a stork? Or rinse your teeth with Dr.Pepper cuz you thought he was a real doctor? 🤣 (Im jk btw, seeing someone say that instantly made me think of those scenes LOL)

[@nothingposted9056]

Have you checked out ADHD or Autism? Because Cat very much strikes me as either of those

[@lochana___]

@@franknfurter5336 i’m rewatching glee rn and seeing brittany and santana on screen has reminded me why they’re my comfort characters 🤗🤗

[@lochana___]

@@nothingposted9056 yeah, i’ve actually been diagnosed with adhd by my gp and a specialist but my mum doesn’t believe in mental illnesses. alas life goes on

[@marcelamontenegro4607]

As someone with ADHD, I hate that showwriters use some of its symptoms (distractivity, inability to pick on social cues, etc) to create their dumb characters.

[@CaitAlexandria]

Just wanna add that originally Cat’s character in the pilot episode was supposed to be modeled after Misty Raines from Moody’s Point. A reoccurring sketch on the Amanda Show. Misty’s known quirk was her saying the line “what’s that supposed to mean” while crying and/or always storming off in an emotional fit. Though I think the creators missed the mark with that one. What young kid would catch on to a running joke from an early 2000s show. Much like their episode parody of The Breakfast Club. What Gen Z kid watched yet alone knew about an 80’s John Hughes film?!

[@GippyHappy]

Technically Drake doesn't qualify as a himbo because he isn't nice enough.

[@oooh19]

Yea drake was just a jerk much of the time

[@clumsyninja925]

Himbos don't have to be nice. The only qualification is dumb and hot.

[@Emperor-Quill]

The H in Himbo stands for Heart.

[@GippyHappy]

the B stands for Beefy@@Emperor-Quill

[@user-su8wo4cc4u]

​@@GippyHappythe M stands for Masculine

[@sparkgold3852]

Cosmo in the first episodes of the Fairly Odd Parents was an ideal dad stereotype with a suave car salesman voice. Soon the voice actor kept making the voice more and more goofy and the writers made him less and less smart

[@matityaloran9157]

I honestly like Cosmo better when he was dumber

[@lennypayne4241]

As someone who grew up mostly with modern FOP, I was absolutely _floored_ when I saw how Cosmo was originally portrayed. Not only was his voice completely unrecognizable but he was actually a fairly competent and profoundly intelligent individual who never had any "dumb guy" jokes at all! I guess Nickelodeon just saw the kid-appeal of having a character being a complete idiot in all of their shows, so they had to give Cosmo permanent brain damage in later seasons and turn him into a loud, obnoxious retard just for the lulz.

[@Zaslanetz]

Todd in the Shadows once called Cat Valentine character as "If Ralph Wiggum was sexy".

[@MrNobodyX3]

You should look at Ed from Ed, Edd, and Eddie, weirdly even though it's not much I feel like they made him smarter overtime. I think this was mostly due to making him feel like an actual older character since he's older than his other two friends.

[@lonewizzy]

A moronic character can survive flanderization if they retain the heart of their character. Joey Tribbiani and London Tipton are prime examples 💕

[@LuciferArc1]

Yes. Joey and Chandler were my favorites. They kept the heart of the character. They grew as time went on too. Their dynamic kept the show together at its worst.

[@iantaakalla8180]

Also, London Tipton’s gimmick is that she is obnoxious. She is certainly dumb, but that is part and parcel of the the literal “Paris Hilton” archetype of being a rich girl living off of daddy’s hotel wealth, and even throughout The Suite Life on Deck she wasn’t just the dumb person.

[@ember9361]

@@LuciferArc1 speaking of Chandler, RIP Matthew Perry :(

[@RaeNapier64]

The cat thing was partly because her character was heavily traumatised and neglected by her family (her brother being in and out of prison, being locked in cupboards by her brother and his “pranks” as well as her parents allowing it and at some point encouraging it, in Sam and cat there’s moments where cat mentions, other issues, with her much older brother. This is in no way a defense of cats character being boiled down to being dumb just an explanation as to why she became so infantile and why her friends often had to parent her, she was regressing because of her trauma, her whole character is super interesting to deep dive into but it’s kinda fucked up that it just became “sexy dumb girl do a funny”

[@zuzukram]

I really don’t think Nick writers were smart enough to think that far about her character this is just a really nice fan theory

[@yurukiiOWO]

I agree with zuzukram. Dan Schneider was really fucked - he just wanted "sexy dumb girl."

[@tonymitsu]

I got very confused while reading this cause of the missing closing bracket

[@sleepinggorilla]

There was no deeper meaning to it. If the actresses were willing to play into the fetishes of the show runner (child actors) they would get more screen time. So Liz Gillies and Ariana Grande took over the show.

[@hippo440]

the way i saw it was that cat is genuinely a clueless, but she amps it up because people like her more that way. it's a defense mechanism, in season 1 people didn't seem to like her that much because she "had problems", now she still has problems, that's still her thing, but she's basically immune to annoying people and no one is mean to her because she's just cat.

[@iburnedthegrassinmyfrontya9700]

I have always wondered this about Joey. I’ve seems friends hundreds of times and when I start over with season 1 he’s nothing like he is in season 10. When I first started rewatching the show I actually googled why this is and someone said something about character development but I was like how is becoming stupid character development 😭

[@i_unfriend_u]

I'm surprised you didn't mention Michael Kelso from That '70s Show. He's the epitome of the "pretty boy moron" character trope. One of my favorite Kelso moments was when the guys were trying to quietly sneak up to Canada to buy beer, then Kelso runs around the corner screaming about their plans and then blows and airhorn on top of it lol.

[@MrErik052005]

Eric Matthew’s from Boy Meets World is a great example. He started season 1 as the cool and mean older brother of Cory. By the end of the series, he was a loveable goofball. But he was so dumb by the end of it, he would forget to breathe type of dumb.

[@ZipplyZane]

I think he's like the ultimate example, because he was the cool older brother for a long time, without any hints of being remotely unintelligent. It would be interesting seeing how the transition happened. Did he just not appear for a while and then show up different? Or was it more gradual? Or was it very blatant? I do not remember.

[@yuvalaharony7864]

I feel like this is almost done as porpuse, just like Topanga gets less wierd as the seasons go, because I think the show is supposed to be from Cory's point of view, and for Cory, Eric gets dumber as he gets smarter, and Topanga gets more like him as he gets to know her

[@MrErik052005]

@@yuvalaharony7864 that’s a really interesting POV. I like it!

[@kyleellis1825]

With Eric, the theory is that he was always the dumb guy but since it's based on Corey's PoV, Eric used to be his cool older brother in his perspective but then as Corey aged, he saw who ERic really was.

[@YophiGames]

Yeah, I just said this. He showed zero signs of being dumb, but then when they split Shawn and Eric up, Eric replaced Shawn as being the comedic dummy of the show. This was especially easy because Will Friedle is a comedic genius and Rider Strong is a lot more serious.

[@amelioravictoriadionyssia3323]

In The Office, everyone became dumber over time; the working theory for this is that there was the radon in the building that everyone forgot about getting rid of... because of the radon. This is also why people didn't just get dumber, but ended up in more unbelievable situations because they were suffering from toxicity and likely brain damage as a result. Like Dwight worked there for years and never fired off a gun. He was objectively more intelligent in the beginning, more studious and took more care to his work... Firing a gun and losing his position was really not the character of season 1 Dwight. Kevin was also capable of keeping the books before 3 seasons in; clearly EVERYONE had cognitive decline from the radon poisoning

[@MsMinoula]

Ok but I doubt this was how it happened. Like what, they had a solid episode but then were like "wait, we did not add to Kevin's brain damage in this episode, how about changing the cold open with him hitting a turtle..." More likely someone just came up with these stuff? Theories are fun, though.

[@amelioravictoriadionyssia3323]

@@MsMinoula I almost guarantee that because of who the writers for the office were, and some of the things they worked on otherwise (other than Mindy Kaling) there was definitely an at least partially intentional reasoning for this to be true. Like they had to have at least considered it as a main plot point of the whole thing. Some shows have this strange, deep underlying sort of coincidences and connections that are just too real. I think sometimes it's like, for writers, natural to get layers on reasonings for why things happen for certain events. Like in some storylines I write I will literally just flesh out a network of various characters and motivations and then find ways to make the events caused by others have the kind of impact that's satisfactory to the reader. They can relate because the effect of seeing how characters react in this sort of alchemical nature that's living within the book. It's kind of like making music in that every sound has a sort of character and like people they make good groups when they are tuned into each other

[@MsMinoula]

@@amelioravictoriadionyssia3323 "I guarantee" is a little much of a statement. Well, objectively " let's get everyone dumber by the final year to the point of caricature, every time you write a character pretend they are being poisoned, so that we will get cringe and cheap laughs out of it" is not a plot. It achieves nothing and strays from the idea of the office. I prefer to think the office fans are a little bit naive than to think america, and then the whole world, and then the next generations have been watching something so pointless.

[@baal544]

haha 69 likes

[@wonderduck2345]

Andy got the worst of it. Cornell is an Ivy League college. I mean on the level of Harvard ivy League. He graduated from Cornell and when he was first introduced, he was really smart but had a temper. At one point he started becoming way dumber than michael EVER was. I feel they did this to make up for the lack of Michael being on the show anymore.

[@marck717]

Hi Tronn, I think the character Eric Matthews from the TV show Boy Meets World fits this trope perfectly. In Season One, he was Corey’s normal cooler older brother, and as the seasons went on, the writers made him so dumb that he became incoherent and even delusional half the time. Although, every once in a while he had a few moments of clarity.

[@mokkaherrman1104]

I think it's about relatability. If a character has too little flaws, looks good and does well, people just tend to not like them. Most characters are liked exactly for being cliches. It's always the same: 'Smart but Unsocial' or 'Good looking but Arrogant' or 'Ugly but Sweet'; there's plenty of these combinations and they just make characters instantly likeable and easy to understand. I think that's the reason. It's pretty much the essence of comedy to overdraw characters traits. And simple traits and clichés are simply the easiest to consume.

[@jimmym3352]

Speaking of Flanderization, the most obvious example of this is Homer Simpson. In the first season (yes I'm old enough to remember that) he wasn't nearly as dumb. His character was supposed to be more of a strict, old fashioned father. Maybe a little dumb, compared to the kids that is, but parents often seem dumber than their kids, but really he was supposed to represent the "average" middle class father.

[@error-try-again-later]

My little brother was watching some of the original Simpsons episodes yesterday and it's surprising how different Homer was to his modern version.

[@X_Numb]

In 2024 him having a paid house and being able to raise 3 kids only on his wages with money to spare for the occasional holidays makes him look super successful which goes against his initial characterization of being a bit dumb, having a terrible boss with a greedy and abusing boss and some level of financial struggle. This was as much the case when the first season came out. I think they made him dumber because it was becoming too hard to joke about a character who is a lot more successful than the average viewer.

[@ahmed.mbello2048]

I would love to point out something I noticed about “dumb” characters , they seem to be people with some kind of weird mental disability but like lack of understanding or maybe just the know-how on how to write these characters… they end up getting dummer and dummer cause writers don’t know how to write a coherent mentally disabled character , it’s either they get over their illness or they get worse aka dummer. Idk I think i may be reading into this too much but that’s an interesting thought

[@null7056]

Completely agreed

[@violetsparkles5453]

Well even the office addresses it when he is actually believed to be disabled

[@latedawnsearlysunsets]

oh absolutely… like so many of these “dumb” characters are just a caricature of disabled people with ofc jokes at their expense which i find a little frustrating and upsetting but hey at the end of the day i just have a lot of relatable characters 😎

[@bostonrailfan2427]

Drake and London weren’t actually dumb, just lazy, undriven, manipulative, conceited, and ignored their education because they didn’t want to learn. Joey wasn’t dumb because he was disabled, he was perfectly normal most of the time and needed someone or something to happen to start the dumbness. Cat was just socially inept, likely caused by her cloistered childhood. none of them were disabled.

[@plutototoh]

@@bostonrailfan2427 Being socially inept as a result of a hard childhood actually IS a sign of a disability by itself; either developmental or a personality disorder. For Cat, I'd say it would be reasonable to look into both. Irregular mood swings as a result of trauma, making her relationships and education difficult and unstable, are signs of PTSD potentially developing into BPD later in early adulthood. On the developmental side: Difficulties socializing, making sense of childhood trauma, trouble with keeping up with schoolwork, and seeking approval everywhere she can find it to feel accepted socially however she could but without the understanding of socially acceptable interactions point to a developmental disability like autism or- with consideration to the trauma and isolation in early childhood potentially explaining the social ineptitude itself and Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria as a potential reasoning for the emotional instability (not taking criticism well scene) and desperation to connect with peers- ADHD alongside PTSD. As well, Joey's gradual decline over the years if seen in a real person could point to a case of an early-onset disease usually only seen in elderly folks. It could also potentially be a brain tumor resulting in cognitive decline and confusion. Both of those are real, potential disabilities in people who have a decline as his character did. Ultimately, these are characters written to be laughed at and not taken seriously, so in the canon of the show? No, I don't think the writers made the conscious decision to deride and laugh at disabled people. But the mirroring of real-life symptoms of disabilities is what is being laughed at, and if Cat and Joey were real people, I'd suggest they see some medical professionals for help and guidance with their developing issues. You may not know people who resemble them are likely disabled; people's medical information is their own private information that they are not obligated to share. But it might be good to look back at this information offered and see if there's another perspective on this issue that you're missing here.

[@memeexpert7716]

A part two of this would be great! I'm fascinated as well with how characters like these ones change over time.

[@MrSirFluffy]

The term flanderization is basically a synonym to caricature, where the character because a caricature of themselves. It tends to happen when new writers take over, since they don't understand the characters beyond the most extreme elements. That said, keeping the same writers don't make them immune to it. Also, sometimes a show can do a good job of keeping the character honest and even tone them down like the first many seasons of MLP.

[@kate_6436]

I never got the feeling Joey was dumb? I know they called him dumb but unlike the other characters in this I felt like Joey was more uneducated and unobservant than straight up dumb. Because every time he was given information he was able to keep it in his head. Like the encyclopedia or his word of the day toilet paper Chandler got him. He was able to learn information and use it correctly he just didn't know a lot of information. It got exaggerated as time went on of course but he never seemed dumb like he couldn't understand stuff more just he didn't know. Like he came up with all sorts of successful schemes throughout the show.

[@carolinahernandezroy6579]

That's a great point and I had never thought about it that way.Most of his "dumb" humor comes from him not being as cultured and educated as the rest and not from being straight up a child

[@ItsYaBoiV]

He always had crazy himbo energy, but they did dumb him down even more towards the last seasons.

[@aavi.]

​@@ItsYaBoiVright, i was so sad cuz he seemed so smart in the first few episodes

[@ryznak4814]

Not in the last two seasons, in those two he is a complete idiot. The worst case of how stupid he is being the episode in which he tries to learn French from Phoebe.

[@bostonrailfan2427]

what about him playing a role to keep people unsure about him even among his friends? he’s not actually dumb, just a douche playing dumb among people trying to be his friends

[@coldpon3]

I cant even be mad cuz "you tought me my ABDs" is one the funniest things I ever heard

[@ummekulsum7157]

London and Moseby's last scene still gets me

[@DJPJ.]

Like Cosmo from "Fairly Odd Parents". Started out as street smart with Wanda being booksmart. He was soon downgraded to stright up stupid.

[@jae1571]

I recently watched Boy Meets World and noticed this trope in the character of Eric. In the first season, he’s primarily just presented as the cool older brother, and isn’t really *that* much of an idiot, just very distracted by typical teenage things and obsessed with girls. Throughout the series, you can see him slowly degrade into a complete numbskull, becoming more a tool for comic relief rather than a fully-fledged character.

[@silverwriter6739]

Feeny: "Mister Matthews!?" Eric: "Mister Squirrels." Cory: "ERIC!?" Eric: "Plays-with." Someone: "Have you gone insane?" Eric: "Only if learning how to purify and drink your own urine is insane..."

[@kyleellis1825]

A lot of that could just be how Corey's perception of his older brother changed.

[@lindseycassella3015]

I watched a really good video about the regression of Eric Matthews.

[@Nicki-1384]

I think Troy Barnes is a good example of a good “dumb” character. He can incredibly stupid at times, but he definitely has his moments where the dumb thing is put aside in favour of character development and just good, sweet scenes.

[@ZipplyZane]

I honestly don't remember him coming off as dumb in Season 1, though.

[@hman9869]

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[@thatblueghost2296]

@@ZipplyZane That's community as a whole I'd argue. It takes sometime to get it's footing. Troy's dumbness,and Britta's Brittaness don't show themselevs until time goes on and they get more comfortable with eachother in the group. Britta also starts as a "cool" confident character, but her fakeness and desire for attention and to be different show themselves later. She ends the show as the uncool one. She Britta'd it.

[@kyleellis1825]

@@ZipplyZane He was really gullible. He hoestly looked up to Pierce in S1.

[@MrAnonymouz]

I don’t know if this characters in the video but Eric for boy meets world is the best example of this change

[@xOxmortal]

I watched danger force recently (henry danger spin off) and this trope STILL hasn't left

[@TonChinKanKun]

I think flanderization happens is bc the original traits are difficult to write in bulk, like for sitcoms alot of episodes are being produced pretty quickly! It might be hard to fit these odd/unique characters into these comparatively normal worlds, especially as part of the main cast. Plus, writing dumb characters is SOO easy and fun to do (i know from experience ) its sad to see what had to be sacrificed to make ut happen though

[@phillinsogood]

London was definitely the best character from any Disney channel show or movie! They definitely dropped the ball not giving London & Maddie their own spin-off

[@sleepinggorilla]

From what I saw the original Suite Life was the London and Maddie show. I don’t remember the twins doing the much.

[@nirvanaheights]

@@sleepinggorilla”The Suite Life of Zack and Cody”

[@bostonrailfan2427]

@@sleepinggorillathey had a bunch of episodes focused on them, but the twins were the focus the vast majority of the time

[@bostonrailfan2427]

unfortunately, High School Musical killed that idea: Maddie’s actress became unavailable too much to consider for the idea, and as great as the duo were the whole twins shenanigans concept was what set it apart from other shows

[@sleepinggorilla]

@@bostonrailfan2427 Fair enough, I have only seen a few episodes and some youTube clips. The funniest stuff I have seen was between London and Maddie, 15 years later and that's what people are still talking about. I think Suite Life on Deck happened because of Brenda Song's popularity, and Ashley Tisdale was trying to do bigger movies so she did not continue.

[@misseli1]

I think another example of this kind of character is Eric Matthews from Boy Meets World. He started out pretty normal, cool even, but became progressively dumber as the seasons went on. Cory Matthew's friend Shawn Hunter, on the other hand, developed in the opposite direction. He began as the slightly dimwitted comic relief character, but he gained more depth and intelligence as the show progressed. It's almost as if Eric and Shawn switched roles somewhere along the way.

[@selinakyle_]

Kelly Bundy and Reese Wilkerson perfectly fit this trope. They started out fairly street smart but got dumber with each season

[@mercuriology45]

i preferred if they kept cat’s characterization of the first season, yes she could be an airhead at times and naive, but she was genuinely talented at doing makeup, customs, and singing. a lot of these shows tend to dumb down the characters as the show progresses.

[@xXOpenYourHeart759Xx]

The dumb character early on is always so much more interesting and entertaining than they are in the end. It's a shame this downgrade is so common.

[@NaughtWalter]

I've noticed flanderization happen a lot with real-life people too, so it's not just something exclusive to sitcoms. If someone in a friendgroup behaves in a funny (dumb) way and makes the other members of the group laugh, they like them more. People love a goofy little guy, and the encouragement from their friendgroup just creates character development that leads to them embracing and feeling more confident in the characteristics that endear them to others. It only becomes an issue when these people start acting OUT of character, though.

[@Whodatwhodatwhodatwhodat]

That London Tipton graduation moment gets me every time 😭😭😭😭

[@Smulenify]

I remember one episode where London doesn't know how to say faux, so she gets a lot of hate because people think she's saying "fox fur". I don't know why but that just felt so strange to me even as a kid, because fashion was supposed to be her thing, and yet she has never heard of faux fur?

[@khadeejones1136]

That actually seems pretty realistic to me, London is pretty young and 'faux' is literally a French word, so she was just using English pronunciation rules. My mom is in her 40s and still pronounces 'jalapeño' with a 'j' sound because that's how it looks like it's spelled, and foreign words are tricky for some people. When London heard the word pronounced properly, there could have been a disconnect, and she just didn't know people were talking about the same word that she had been mispronouncing. Also, she likes clothes and fashion, but I don't think it was in a booksmart or studious way; I think it was more in a intuition and consumerism kinda way.

[@noodlesofoodles]

that mr. moseby speed dial scene is enough to make a grown man cry

[@Menez18]

you should have looked at Tony from Just Jordan who probably suffered from this trope the most. the entire 1st season saw him as the cool talented emotionally mature sort of bestfriend/rival to the main character. who suddenly took a full 180 degree turn in the 2nd season and turned into probably one of the dumbest characters on television, which came along with the general shift of the show from a average 2000s family show in season 1 into a full on comedy sitcom in the 2nd season, equipped with the expected camera change etc

[@sagejennings4342]

Jason Mendoza is one of my favorite examples of dumb character done successfully and CONSISTENTLY. By the end he's grown a lot of wisdom. One of my favorite quotes of his is "the air inside my lungs was the same as the air outside my body" to describe peace, but he never totally lost his child-like dumb archetype demeanor. He kept his same worldview while growing as a person.

[@johannaelloso9418]

Eric from Boy Meets World is a perfect example of this trope!!! He started out as a playboy type then he progressively ended up being the stupid comic relief character. It's crazy how insanely different younger Eric was

[@unnderneath]

After s4 the show declined tbh

[@sleepykittyMMD]

I think the whole issue with cat was that she was supposed to be bipolar but ended up being more autistic and the show tried to sexualize her infantilism and regression which is a real thing with people who are autistic. It was a slow progression in intelligence down that most people including myself didn’t really notice until Sam and cat

[@fanaticalistic]

I agree, especially since I'm an autistic teen who relates to Cat, I'm also just as saddened by her.

[@Minniemooz]

I think it’s a bit weird to associate a clueless and unintelligent character with autism

[@-Blasphemy-]

@@Minniemooz Same here honestly, she wasn't written to be autistic she was written to be 'the dumb one" like all the other examples. But if thats what autistic people associate themselves with... Because I had two autistic friends in my old school and they weren't CAT dumb. They actually had personality and were smarter than me in some areas like maths and art. All they had trouble with was containing their emotions and following social cues.

[@Minniemooz]

@@-Blasphemy- exactly, my boyfriend and sister both have autism and they’re both very intelligent in their own right, I think it’s quite damaging to associate being dumb with autism

[@loureedpipes]

​​@@Minniemooz I don't think people are saying she seems autistic because she's written as less intelligent. The behavior that writers of these shows write as "dumb" or lacking "common sense" are sometimes rules that aren't intuitive to autistic people. With how Cat easily misinterprets others words and intentions, has seemingly "childish" hobbies, or a naive understanding of the world, and her not knowing social cues (like the clip of her just walking away from Tori mid-conversation), she can very much be read as autistic. NOT for a "lack of intelligence" but a presence of perhaps unintentional, subtle autistic traits

[@user-ov2px1ks6g]

About Kevin and his pie math. I am very ADHD, and what he shows in that scenario is something I experience often. When I actively enjoy something or want something in that moment, my brain is unstoppable. But if I'm bord, uninterested, or just ambivalent about something I have intense brain fog and can barely process how to do the basics of something, even if it's something I know isn't hard for me. Even though I am capable of a lot on my good days, I often don't show it or significantly play it down so I am not always expected to preform at that level. Dumbing down can be a coping strategy to make life easier.

[@dianaeceberre7102]

One of my favorite examples of this is Troy from Community :) he starts off as a caricature of a cool, popular jock but as the series progresses he gets really silly and stupid, sort of representing him letting go of that cool persona and learning to have fun mostly with Abed who indulges in a lot of fandom and creative related stuff

[@xolani_tm]

Junior from My Wife and Kids also became dimwitted as the show went on. He even changed from season 1. He was good in sports and actually got average grades. Then down the line he was so dumb he repeated grades and wasn't sporty anymore.

[@Fougu]

They even had him spell his name as “Junyor”. lol Even Claire was affected. She goes from having a no-nonsense personality to being an airheaded clutz. The actress change shouldn’t have made the shift so dramatic.

[@patrickstephenson1264]

All I remember is when he said something like "There's no B in dumb, that's dum-B".😂

[@TheNadroj10]

Junior was the perfect example. In season 1 he was very level headed and somewhat had a smartass response to what was going on, later seasons the kid gets so dumb you wonder how he makes it through open doors.

[@phillinsogood]

I feel like the networks want a dumb character so that it would be easier to have jokes and other characters bounce off of them

[@thenobletaco4232]

Britta from Community is also a great example of this.

[@patrickstephenson1264]

4:03 But I feel like that's all of us sometimes. You may not know what the convo is but you still feel the need to fit in.

[@BSBnFOBnAdamFreak]

This happened with Eric Matthews from Boy Meets World. I binge watched it recently, and watching Eric go from loveable and goofy to just flat out dumb was heartbreaking. Yea, it was good for some gags in the show, but they could have gotten away with that if he'd stayed the way he was originally written.

[@LivvieLynn]

I still hate how unrecognizable he is in later episodes. It felt like they pushed him into that role just because he was the most expendable as a character.

[@jackthestar1292]

I think the reason he got dumber was because Cory grew up and became less dependent on his brother and saw him change from a confident and cool teenager to a confused adult that knows less than him. He went full looney tunes in season 7 tho, which is sad considering last season ended with him coming to terms with not having his own son

[@namelesscreature8843]

Eric Matthews? Why did my mind immediately go to Saw?

[@kristiisham3711]

Yes! I immediately thought of him.

[@titanblade3706]

Younger Eric was a normal teen with cleverness. He was lazy with school like most teens and tries cheating his way out of it but he still had integrity. You’re right, it’s sad how he became.

[@209karenbabe]

London Tipton is our QUEEN AND SAVIOR!! I use PRNDL religiously when driving!

[@b-ryemendez8335]

Glad you made this video. I always questioned why a lot of these characters start off not as dumb and become complete idiots after one season. Other notable characters like this are Ed - Ed Edd n Eddy - he was not completely stupid in season 1. He actually spoke in full sentences and freaked out a lot less. He was just a comic book/ monster movie geek who was strong. Patrick Star- another one where season 1 had him kinda slow but not completely stupid as the later season made him.

[@AlryFireBlade]

9:40 wow respect you showed that before talking about the "dumb version of her", so we know this isn't reallity at all.

[@kate_6436]

I think calling Maddie poor was part of London being dumb? Because in reality I don't think Maddie was poor. She went to a private catholic school and she lived across the street from Fenway Park. She was at least upper middle class. The boys were poor most likely cause they lived in the hotel for free and their mom was a lounge singer and their father was a musician who if I remember correctly didn't pay child support but I think cause Maddie wasn't rich like London was London thought she was poor

[@JordG0tBored]

its most definitely been a while since i watched the show, but i'm pretty sure it wasnt just london who referenced maddie being poor. I feel like everyone acknowledged it

[@sleepinggorilla]

London was a 1%, her daddy made at least 500k per year. Meaning she had more pocket change than 99 out of a hundred people she knew made in 20 years.

[@ProbablyBees]

Maddie was poor. It's referenced many times in the show that she has the job at the Tipton to help her parents with bills, cannot afford clothing relying on hand-me-downs and thrift stores, and shares everything with her siblings because their family cannot afford providing for all of them

[@alwaysrootingfortheantihero123]

I think that Maddie’s family was poor after paying the bills, essentially they didn’t have much for luxury. She had a ton of siblings so after paying bills, Maddie’s tuition and whatever else came from having a ton of kids the family didn’t have enough to afford luxury or Maddie’s college

[@jayekisses]

I’m pretty sure she goes to private school on a scholarship most likely an academic scholarship.

[@Flughundi]

Stewart from Big Bang Theory was also way different in his first appearance on the show. He was a great artist, smart and charismatic but in the later seasons he became more pathetic, sad and sick.

[@hope-cat4894]

I always thought it was so odd that Stewart never got a consistent girlfriend in the show because he seemed pretty attractive in the early seasons and his problems were no worse than the rest of the guys. 🤷🏽‍♀️

[@ninjanibba4259]

@@hope-cat4894I first saw the actor in Hitch, he got the girl and I was happy for dude, then seeing him on Big Bang I expected the same thing but never happened Terribly wasted

[@Dead_Goat]

This is because the show is all told through cory's eyes. As he gets older the characters change to how he perceives them.

[@Rikrobat]

The drastic shift in Stewart’s characterization was so frustrating to watch. Being down on his luck could have been something to play with but the show increasingly made him into such a sad sack that even his friends seem annoyed when he was around. The character deserved way better.

[@hope-cat4894]

@Dead_Goat Wrong comment thread. We're talking about The Big Bang Theory, and you might be talking about Boy Meets World.

[@TheRealKjay]

Chelsea from "That's so Raven" is another one. She started out actually pretty smart but as the show went on the writers made her dumber and dumber.

[@genderqueercloudstrife]

they did shawn spencer so dirty with this trend too. he was always kind of silly, but he was a genius, a prodigy, thats how he did what he did. then as the series went on they dumbed him down and he didnt so much solve crimes as they solved themselves and he happened to be standing there.