The EmpLemon Hungrybox doc is...actually really good?

[@Zellthan]

who would have guessed that the melee community doesn't like the part of the video that directly calls them out lmao

[@cesarsilva3536]

This is the best comment in this video for sure

[@GangGang-qk1se]

Trueee

[@Crackey75]

precisely.

[@homeslice5414]

Chat was MAD gaslighting lol

[@SatisfactoryBro]

Documentary: makes a metaphor/analogy that’s meant to be a hyperbole Twitch chat: Erm that’s a bit of a reach 🤔

[@bkm8556]

Smash players try to think beyond concrete analysis like frame data and literal meaning challenge (impossible)

[@Happy.Stupid.Neighbor]

Your assuming that was ment as hyperbole, that’s not clear.

[@MarkHalberstram]

@@Happy.Stupid.Neighborit is actually quite clear

[@lmlfelip]

LMAO i get people getting mad about the mang0 not being a "god" anymore stuff but this??? the analogy was spot on like wtf? 😂

[@cyclone6976]

It was corny though it definitely doesn’t ruin the video but you commenting this says you thought chat said it did which they didn’t

[@ピカリFritzyBeat]

I remember when this came out, I still think it was a huge reason for Hbox's sudden growth as a content creator, and the shift in the general community's sentiment toward him.

[@Eroil]

For sure. I knew after I watched it it will change the community's landscape

[@CarbonMalite]

He got crabbed, he swapped over to Ult and found a nicer community, Melee community forgot why they were supposed to hate him, certain top players stopped spreading hateful stuff, this video came out, he gets to be an underdog on his return. Juan Puffman was eating good then

[@h3ck774]

@@CarbonMalite "nicer community" im not tryna be that guy but me2

[@notyou6674]

he was already exploding in audience but yeah sentiment changed for sure side note fuck leffen he basically socially engineered the hbox hate

[@Fritz9672]

​@@CarbonMaliteeating good? Fucking yikes

[@cluelesscardgamer]

the history revisionism with people thinking hbox wasn't straight detested is kinda crazy. everything makes sense for the time contextually

[@Carvaka]

The hate was excessive for its context.

[@jamesnubz]

the revisionist history is Woodrow Wilson levels of revisionist

[@fl4re163]

Don't act that the popular opinion at the time wasn't that Mang0 was washed.The community definitely thought that. every single tournament i remember people tweeting how Mang0 could have done better, and there was a twitter account that was counting the days since Mang0's last major win. After smash con 2017, he went 644 days without winning his next major (GOML 2019), which btw hbox had only 2 FOURTH place finishes, and he went to way more tournaments. Mang0 was getting ranked between 4-6 for that period, below people like axe and wizy. The point isn't really that Mang0 wasn't a God or stopped being a god, more so that it wasn't really weird to have a mang0 win on your record if you were top 15sh where as with post Armada retirement hbox They were extremely rare. That is i think now we understand just how mang0 Rolls. He'll buster out to Fizzwiggle or whatever and we just have to laugh it off, Hbox kinda felt like the guy to beat if you wanted to prove your skill. That's how IBDW and Zain did it, they made their mark by beating hbox.

[@thegoodgeneral]

I definitely remember Mang0 coming back into a vibrant relevancy almost exactly after this documentary came out, but he had been “just getting by” for a while at that point.

[@billwoods7578]

lmfao the dude was never ranked lower than 5 what are you actually talking about??

[@LucasZero64]

Thanks for giving the video a fair shot. You are completely right, I don't think it is a stretch to say that HBOX was hated and villainized in the Smash community to such an extent, even though your chat was gaslighting you about it.

[@Eroil]

People try to forget about it but if you were in the community at the time it was very common to hear stuff like hbox is killing the game or the ban buff discussion, he definitely didn't invent that

[@RobSomeone]

As a fighting game player and not a smash player (look what I just did) what Emp said about the FGC's portayal of Smash is a perfect metaphor. Also, back when HBox was getting a lot of heat, any fighting game player that somewhat followed competitive smash would usually say he's awesome because he'll do whatever strategy it takes to win, including playing slow and defensive.

[@heyzeuscreestow9394]

No most I knew who followed smash were not admiring hbox lol

[@blvck5943]

@@heyzeuscreestow9394 how are u gonna tell him “no” about his own personal experience lmaooo😂

[@AlinaAniretake]

he misunderstood Mauler videos@@blvck5943

[@andrewprahst2529]

​@@blvck5943Well he didn't say it was his own experience, he was trying to paint a picture of "any FGC player", so a second opinion helps people get a more accurate picture of what the community was generally like

[@prismaticpaul]

chat just waiting for the video to get to the bad part so that they can feed their ego or something

[@mendo1738]

for a video that was like and hour and thirty minutes long they sure seemed to find the one part they didn't like just so they can call it a bad video, the hbox haters never stop amazing me at how goofy they are. and the part they didn't like wasn't even entirely wrong either like at the time mang0 was bad obv in terms of pro play hes still a beast and would shit on anybody right but like he wasn't doing so hot and what emplemon said was essentially how the melee community treated hbox pre-2017

[@tenslein8977]

God-status meant that gods didn't lose to anyone except each other. They certainly wouldn't lose to anyone outside the top 100. Mango's loss to Magi was a big upset since Magi was completely unknown at the time. Hbox wasn't getting upset at the time. Leffen made a video about Hbox, with the thumbnail of Hbox as the devil, titled "One of the many reasons to dislike Hbox." I don't think it's unfair to say he led the hate against Hbox.

[@byrne1807]

Mang0 had a bad 2018, yeah, but it was portrayed as if he’d fallen out of the top echelon completely, something obviously not true if you take a look at today’s tournaments. Armada and hbox were a lot more consistent, but a point mang0 has made that I do think is fair is spacies are just more inconsistent then floaties. Armada was so dominant for the strength of his B-game, something that can get you blown up if you’re playing a glass cannon like fox or falco (I’m a peach/fox dual main and I usually go peach if I’m playing off bc I’m punished way less for being a little off my game). Not saying losing to Magi at the time isn’t significantly worse than something like Armada losing to Swedish Delight, but the gap was closing around 2018 and I wouldn’t say the video accurately portrayed how relevant mang0 was/is past hbox starting to be #1

[@exlordinthedude8080]

@@byrne1807 tbf Mang0 switches between fox and Falco at a whim so johns imo for explaining his inconsistency. Love Mang0 tho.

[@rekt_yer_nan_darding_5788]

I don't think it's fair to take away mango's God status for getting upset by magi. He was still very active and had won GOML and Big House the previous year.

[@NoryLevi]

@@byrne1807 yea man, emplemon should just predict the future to how mango bounce back and played well again

[@gabrielravier8114]

​​@@byrne1807I mean I do agree that the video somewhat inaccurately portrays Mang0's skill at the time but it wasn't that much of a stretch either considering the specific time it was made in - in any case, it just seems like a small fib for the purposes of making the "Now there is only Juan" (one) pun, it doesn't feel like much compared to how much people seem to be getting angry in the comments over it...

[@talkgomilk]

This video is actually how I got into Melee, it’s definitely not perfect, but I think it’s a very good video for newcomers to the Melee scene.

[@Themonkeymartin]

Same

[@LoopZoopler]

Samesies

[@Aefax]

i think it's not a good video at all for newcomers and paints an inaccurate picture of the community as rabid haters of everyone and everything in reality there are plenty of valid reasons to dislike hbox, so some people dislike hbox. this shit just happens

[@MrGameonthis]

@@Aefax Yeah this doc got me into Melee, but I've come to the same conclusion. Use to think Hungrybox received hate simply because he played a certain character in a video game and while to a certain extent that's true, Empleon leaves out a lot context.

[@BeaverOfDooom]

Same with me

[@FrankEShaw05]

Man it’s unbelievable that a documentary specifically made about hbox, ends up being biased towards hbox thats absolutely crazy

[@mendo1738]

ikr its ridiculous, like if only there was a way for me to tell that a video would have some sort of bias like maybe from the titles or something oh well

[@alexlowe2054]

I can't imagine people hating a documentary about a famously hated player. I mean, if people hate someone, surely they'd give a documentary about that person a fair and unbiased review, right?

[@FunkadelicPancho]

It's almost like his name is in the title of it

[@carteljameson8395]

How is Moky's chat so ignorant about Melee? Their attempt to gaslight him about the hate Hungrybox experienced is wild.

[@abapcharles81]

watching this 2 years later is hilarious, how not only moky but his twitch chat criticise emp’s metaphors solely because they really cant grasp how accurate they are and how well made they are. whats even funnier is how people see a criticism of mang0 and act like emp doesn’t like him when at the time it was made it was an accurate portrayal of how the community did view him.

[@heartnet40]

My favorite aspect about this video is how it came out and almost every top player went "But what about me" in their reaction videos to it. I'm not surprised to see Smash Community members miss the point on something, but it amuses me nonetheless. The video is absolutely fine. The bias is in service to the video topic and the Mango thing really doesn't invalidate the greater arguments it presents. If the Melee community is still malding over this video, it's only because they hate having a spotlight put on their toxicity. Also why are we still downplaying Leffen and his putrid behavior lmao like he doesn't hide how shitty he is and people still wanna put barriers around him like he's not so bad.

[@FlamingZelda3]

The hate and toxicity in the melee community was really toned down in this video, That's my chief complaint with it. Like he made the 2017-2020 years sound like "oh, they're hating the top player just because he's the top player, how sad" when everything going on was so much more, and so much more heated. (I get heated just remembering all of it)

[@mscup8814]

Full agree

[@atomicmelodies]

The armada reaction was especially egregious

[@wizardswine4621]

While it presented it poorly, it wasn't even that wrong about Mango lol, he was not performing very well at all in 2020. I also think Moky is really downplaying how much hate Armada got (largely from Mango fans).

[@jojivlogs_4255]

>says smash community is toxic >posts extremely passive aggressive comment to own the stinky smash players the duality of tism

[@putridmoldyman306]

"This hungrybox documentary is biased towards hungrybox" is a bit of an odd complaint for people to have

[@AdThe1st]

Not really, if a documentary dropped last year saying Mang0 is amazing and is the only god left people would've rightfully been pissed

[@rannynihilius8481]

@@AdThe1st Well it really looked like Hbox was the only concistent god from 2018 to early 2020 even with mang0's 2019 because the guy like till this day has not missed a top 8 in decades at a major. Hbox is in a way still the only god left if you view it by just performance this year so far. Yeah sure mang0 won a small major where llod Axe and Hbox were his main threads but he can't seem to perform well at bigger tourneys right now and i think that's what Emp meant with mang0. The video just sounds a bit too dramatic but i think the guy was kinda right with everything but that whole Armada retired because of Hbox stuff. Leffen did try to ruin his name and succeded on that big time if you compare how people felt about him from pre and post 2017/2018 there seems to be a massive increase after Leffen started flaming him out of nowhere. The whole video was before Hbox had a noisy fanbase that took every word of the doc literally or before Hbox had a bad quarantine year n half. Most of the people that actually hate the doc just take it into today's context where it's clearly not aimed at but to a time where there was no hfam just a guy literally fighting against everyone because they deny him his passion, his job and his hard work while a large proportion of the community is celebrating a guy who spreads falsehoods about him. Not saying that it has to apply to today anymore because Leffen really changed how he's treating people online (mostly) and now that Hbox has a fanbase (that also includes a large chunk of Melee players who give a damn about the game) it's very much different now than back then.

[@AdThe1st]

@@rannynihilius8481 what I'm saying is even when Hbox had his online era, most people would've of stripped him of his god title, they referred to him as online Hbox cause they kinda assumed he'd be mostly back to normal in offline

[@michiganisthebeststate1081]

@@rannynihilius8481 Melee community loves Mang0 way too much that they cant even handle him getting criticized a bit lol.

[@lunarumbreon7699]

Everyone calling the part about Mang0 not being a god ridiculous like that wasn’t how HBox was treated before 2017. A lot of people said he shouldn’t be a god because he wasn’t wining enough tournaments

[@IchigoKurosaki911]

They said the same during the pandemic era.

[@cyclone6976]

Yeah but those are salty smash players they weren’t making a documentary. Emps comments about mango being washed weren’t even because he didnt like seeing him play or was salty, it was just bias for hbox which yeah it was a bad part of the video

[@lunarumbreon7699]

@@cyclone6976 how is that a bias towards HBox? He treated him just like everyone treated HBox which was y’know, the entire point of the documentary

[@kestrel7493]

I really like this doc, of course it's a bit bias but that's what you get when it's about 1 player and is focused on themes so much. This doc got me into melee and now I'm so invested in the stories and all the different sides and perspectives of them, thanks emplemon I do think in retrospect though its that it could have respected other players and maybe incorporated them into the themes whilst still focusing on hbox Also btw emplemon makes documentaries on random stuff, he's done nascar, he's done melee, the Simpsons, new coke, a mount everest conspiracy, the record history of the highest jump, random but he tries to make it beginner friendly

[@sunnythedrunk]

Biased is a huge understatement. I also think a bunch of people also retroactively hate on it more because Emplemon defended the original controversial Hax video when it came out. I definitely lost all the respect had for the guy.

[@jsweeney7359]

@@sunnythedrunk hax was definitely justified in his criticism against leffen not properly atoning for his past but he had to fill the other 90% of the video with stupid shit

[@hahaseab]

@@sunnythedrunk how is it biased exactly

[@johno6787]

Why did an entire generation of people skip bias day in English class

[@Eroil]

@@sunnythedrunk a bit weird that he did, but I don't think it makes this video any worse because of it. It has its biases because emp is a human and sees stuff in a biased way like everyone does but I do not think it's a bad video

[@ChrisVickeryinajar]

tbh i can't believe anyone didn't like that video, it's probably the best melee doc out there and that's saying a lot.

[@thomaslodger7675]

I think the 4 hour melee documentary is better.

[@Iponamann]

Blasphemy

[@dkirby1906]

story telling is extremely good tbf, show it to someone who's never played melee and probably tbh

[@GDNachoo]

probably people that treated juan like shit tryna pretend none of that happened

[@ILTP69420]

@@GDNachooI.e 95% of moky’s twitch chat

[@Regigigas777]

This video is why I know who Moky, or anyone else in Smash, for that matter. Rematching it again here, I still think it's an incredibly well crafted documentary.

[@AnarchoCatBoyEthan]

i hope you won on this attempt at the fight with it

[@rumblebird9888]

The analogies are strange is because you are in denial

[@thegoodgeneral]

Agreed. The analogies were spot on.

[@Eval999]

People downplaying how insane and disgustingly Leffen treated hbox for years blows my mind. I don't even think Leffen has fundamentally changed.

[@paolosworld99]

People have been saying this for years and it will continue to be ignored despite it proving again and again to be true

[@noir.8]

leffen is objectively *The Worst*

[@aguywithgames3135]

Chat and some of the comments saying that the doc was pushing a narrative and being biased feels like they’re ignoring the fact that a lot of these points of contention are also a product of their time. This is not 2020 Emplemon, this is him over the years leading up to 2020 trying to piece together all the info he could find and trying to present his favorite player in a much more better light than how it probably was while he was making this. It’s inevitable that some pieces of info are inaccurate, as it’s impossible for Emp to make a doc about HB while also taking account every other top player and their performance without constantly delaying this vid, if you wanted Mang0, Armada or the rest to be presented better, this was never going to be the vid for that.

[@dkirby1906]

melee players when they said this video is biased and literally reviewing this video the most subjective way possible

[@skylarea]

this documentary is well written, edited, and produced. cant believe anyone didnt like this. people are honestly too quick to hate on things

[@Z01nkScoobs]

This chat was pretty cancer to watch. But that’s most twitch chats anyway so whats so different

[@CalebBlack]

I'll add my thoughts to the overwhelming majority here. My friends were into melee, I had a passing knowledge of like, Mang0 and borp and Leffen and M2k and even Hbox, enough that at the time, even I was very uneasy saying Mang0 wasn't still a god, but besides that, the video was moving and captivating, and this video is literally the reason my locals, beyond the summit, and my favourite melee players have some of my money. We will always be called "Slippi kids". People thought Metagame would be the doc that brought us in. But Metagame was for people who already loved melee, for real. This doc has reached at least 6 million people who knew nothing about melee, and who now appreciate it. This doc probably unironically got thousands of people into the game. Personally, while i think asumsaus -> Slippi is a great pipeline into the game, the Empdoc -> Archivesaus -> top player streams is a great pipeline into the community.

[@Infernos94]

Chat straight didn’t let him have his own opinion and just gas lighted him the entire time. The lack of appreciation of analogies and metaphors shows how much of the melee community skipped english class.

[@naxo2966]

completely true

[@womcauliff]

complaints of “bias” is really ironic considering how people shut down even a suggestion that Mango isnt playing at the same level of competition he used to be

[@PkKirby]

True, all the docs about how amazing Mang0 is don’t get the criticism of bias like HBox vids do.

[@LuxusCharka]

i will say as much as you critique emp lemon saying hbox is the last of the gods and that mang0 was in question, it was 100% true. in the two years priror to the orginal videos release mang0 looked either not good, or super inconsistent. he has 0 tournment wins in 2018 and as many 1st place wins in 2019 as he had placments outside of top 8. obiously mang0 came back cause hes the G.O.A.T and too many people started sleeping on the kid, but it was a far and just take AT THE TIME. which you yourself pointed out multiple times that this hbox doc is very of its time. so much has changed since the beginnning of 2020 to now that it seems dated but when it came out, a lot of it was true.

[@lunarumbreon7699]

People also fail to get that was exactly how HBox was treated before 2017. A lot of people said he wasn’t a god because he didn’t win enough tournaments

[@billwoods7578]

Ya this is just inaccurate and not true, and I prefer Hungrybox to Mango.

[@LuxusCharka]

@@billwoods7578 litteraly what part of it isnt true?

[@billwoods7578]

@@LuxusCharka Mango was a top 6 player his entire career. For this doc to act like his god status was gone is the silliest thing I've ever heard and is simply not true and shows massive bias. Shows very little knowledge of the scene and very lazy researching skills. That being said overall I think it is a good documentary, but the way he and you talk about Mango not being good is simply not true, even in 2018.

[@LuxusCharka]

@@billwoods7578 lol you don’t know 2018-2019 melee then. Again. 0 wins in 2018, super inconsistent performance 2019. People fucking love to doubt mang0 just recently he was ranked outside the top 10 for no reason and turn around and won a super major. It’s routine for people to doubt mang0 in his slips and they defeintly were

[@Griffindore619]

Love how this doc calls out the shitty behavior in our community and all the mango die hards hate it 😂

[@Griffindore619]

Reminds me of metagame 🤔

[@Hugo_Prolovski]

This documentary is the reason why i started playing melee and maybe even saved my life. It has a special place in my heart

[@blvck5943]

Wasn’t it crazy how in 2013 people literally cheered on wobbles wobbling cuz they hated HBOX so much 😂😂

[@Astar72439]

Hbox was definitely portrayed as a villain. Tbh the lack of money in the scene in combination with a “boring” (camping) play style just led people to treating the melee comp scene like a toxic ranked lobby in an online game today. But Hbox nowadays is much more enjoyable to watch

[@GodsProdigee]

I find it funny that smash players cringe at the hbox fgc comparison. At that time the FGC HATED smash. People felt that there were better games that deserved to be in EVO. So as soon as it was denounced everyone celebrated it. I felt it was a great comparison how the FGC felt about smash, is about how smash felt about hbox. People HATED and shitted on smash to that degree.

[@nygftw2478]

Chat is actually so brain dead in the video it hurts. The video was pretty accurate for the time besides the bs about hbox being the last god and downplaying other players, especially with explaining Armadas retirement. But the vid does a really good job explaining the shit hbox had to deal with, the background for why we love melee, and his history. It’s biased because it’s a fucking HBOX documentary no shit. EMP wasn’t in the scene whatsoever before making this vid which explains his lack of respect for a ton of other players too.

[@IllusionistsBane]

This documentary is why I already think Melee is dead. Hungrybox didn't kill it, its own community did.

[@thenameless9087]

"Yea man that Whiplash movie is cool and all but that scene where the sheet disappeared is pretty dumb so the movies is bad" This is you, this is what y'all sound like

[@Infernos94]

People who hate this doc are the same people who hated hbox back then or even now. So them calling this doc “bias” which is literally what they are, only hating the doc because it praises hbox, truly ironic.

[@williamhowells806]

at the time it was made questioning Mang0 was fine. Many people did the same with hbox years prior. Leffen is lucky to have even been named as he is an actual problem

[@wieran35000vr]

Anyone salty that mango's god status was put in contention: Rest assured that anyone who started watching Melee due to this doc tuned in to 2 years of the Mango Zain tier.

[@chubbypuppy5086]

Moky's chat is actually just hating. I really appreciate mokies attempts to talk to them but holy shit them going "haha so dated omg doc so bad!!!" Is annoying as fuck

[@zumptt]

If youre looking for humility in twitch watchers you are lost.

[@TempestKrimps]

i found that any twitch vod becomes noticeably better if you completely ignore chat's existence, it's amazing how they manage to never contribute anything of importance whatsoever

[@rannynihilius8481]

​@@TempestKrimps today's chat for Tipped Off's main stream brought me back to this video somehow. This cancerous vibe is only getting worse and worse tbh. Nonstop shitting on every player and commentator with no humility, a wave of transphobia every time a trans person is on stream and people threatening others with death are only a few things that the average spectator has to endure while watching a Melee stream. I think it's such a shame that the community is almost always only mentioned in negative light when all this twitch, twitter and other social media buzz isn't reflective of the actual local scenes irl. I can't agree with your comment more tbh because i've genuinely never felt any amount of joy leaving chat on for any Smash related stream or the rare times i catch Jerma streaming who's the only other reason i even use Twitch. I just hope that the community just starts distancing itself more from the online bubbles within it bc it already led to so many bad things like the recent Qanon like Hax weirdos or the whole banned player bubble around Technicals in general.

[@trueblueryu5713]

A lot of comments about how this documentary got people into the Melee scene… and this is one of them. After this original video I’ve followed a lot of people in the scene and now I’ve started going to Ultimate tournaments myself. I’m not that good, but I’m having a good time.

[@faisala2911]

The comparisons at the end aren't supposed to be literal, I think they're a way of criticizing the community at the time for not being able to recognize that they were treating hbox the same way melee was being treated by the broader FGC, nintendo, and even some ult players But I will say that claiming mang0 lost his God status during his 2019/2019 slump is a stretch, even though the doc was very right about Leffen being the main architect of hbox hate and anti-puff propaganda

[@mendo1738]

I mean tbf at the time of the video being uploaded mang0 wasn't exactly on a hot streak but I agree emplemon could have phrased it better cause regardless mang0 is still mang0

[@frogerzard6606]

I'm convinced smash players don't know what a well made video is Also at the time this came out mango was inconsistent thats all he was saying

[@jamesnubz]

Melee dont know much of anything. And they meatsuck anything they do like

[@abeln1167]

this is the modern smash doc. this is how i got into melee

[@g0ldf1sh64]

This doc got me into melee. During the lock down I got really into ult and the competitive side of that. At some point I found the doc and watched it and became really into this. I bought a gc and played puff. Hbox was someone I thought was cool. I eventually got slippi and started to main falco and watch more melee. I remember hearing about summit 11 and how crazy that was. I play more ult then melee but I find melee so much more fun to watch and the mechanics are amazing. I just recently got my friend to watch it and all he’s talking about is melee and how good marth is, lol, and hbox. I then got him to come join me to go to lost tech city later this month. It’s amazing. I agree with u(moky) that Mang0 definitely isn’t the last god, I mean that SSC, but it’s a great way to show what melee is and what the competitive scene really is.

[@g0ldf1sh64]

Also, I’m pretty sure this is a reason for hbox growth over Covid and his big fan base, from ult and melee now

[@TheChosenFailure]

10:30 Usain Bolt would be slow if he lost his legs, ass take.

[@Landmasters]

One thing I think Lemon could have done better on is explaining Mango's slump and "godhood" being questioned, because I do agree to an extent. It wasn't just no tournament wins in 2018, if you go from Smashcon 2017 to GOML 2019, that's 21 months where Mango went winless. When you go into that long of a dry streak, there are questions on if you'll be able to bounce back and even if you do people will remain cautious on if it's a one time deal or if they're going to return to winning form and you can see that in the GOML GF comments. Naturally the Covid era proved the latter to be true. Lemon's tone will always be too dismissive, but there's a reason The End of Mang0gelion exists When it came time for Hbox to go on the Downward Spiral in 2020 I thought he'd forfeited that status as well. He had almost nothing to offer for Cody and Zain, after not dropping a game to Peach until 2019 he was struggling with Llod (and Polish I think?), placed 7th at Summit which was his worst placing since 2014, he was playing far more Ultimate, and his overall demeanor seemed defeated watching him train with Cody. Even after he won GOML and Wavedash I wasn't sure, cause although he had some occasional victories over Cody, he was on a major losing streak with Zain...and then he knocked Zain out at Smashcon and whatever doubt remained was gone All good if you disagree, but with Plup, Leffen, Zain, Axe, Mew2King, and Wizzrobe making big moves in 2018 while Mango was slumping...it was an uncertain time. Moreso than now, cause yeah he got ranked 11th on the Summer rankings, but that was only a 4 month stretch before he finally won Smashcon 2022

[@CraftingAlt]

the chat was so stupid lmao

[@CSharp__]

chat shares a single brain cell

[@aydenpeele747]

Other people were saying this too, but this video was absolutely one of the things that convinced me to start playing competitive melee. This and Smash Summit 11 were really the two things that got me into it

[@B463L]

The doc isn't more biased than, idk, a doc that literally gets censored because it makes a problematic spacie main look bad. And sure he was wrong to sleep on Mango -- and it aged like milk when he took Summit 11 -- but people are allowed to make mistakes. That really didn't subtract much from the rest of the doc, IMO.

[@mendo1738]

i mean his comment on mang0 wasn't even entirely wrong for the time either obv mang0 will always be a god but at the time it was normal to question it after his questionable runs

[@MrGameonthis]

This doc along with Summit 11, got me into Melee. It's a great video, but it is definitely bias. Getting into the scene I thought Hungrybox was the biggest victim on the planet simply because of the character he played but over the past year getting into the scene, I've grown to see his antics and all that, and it kind of bothers me thinking about how one sided this doc is. Obviously that's the point, it's a documentary on Hungrybox, but knowing this is many peoples first exposure to Melee, it sets false narratives, or narratives that need other sides of the story.

[@queuedjar4578]

I think it was really good at the time since it was more topical, and EmpLemon's videos are more intended for dramatizing historical events in sports, competition, or the world. I would more reccomend them for a good watch than a 100% accurate archive of history to put in a museum or something.

[@GustoFormula]

melee docs are for some reason chronically unable of portraying mang0 as a good guy

[@queuedjar4578]

@@Radarssbm For clarity's sake, what are the legitimate grievances against hbox

[@johno6787]

IT'S BIASED. IT'S NOT BIAS. YOU CAN HAVE A BIAS OR YOU CAN BE BIASED. YOU ARE NOT BIAS.

[@MrGameonthis]

@@johno6787 It’s called a caps lock button and adderall, you should try them. Calm down buddy, no reason to care so much when you clearly understood what I was saying.

[@Pwjdjskw]

37:35 moky speaking facts here. Seems like the chat weren't watching melee back in 2017-2020 lmfao.

[@loganroberts824]

This video got me into melee and I LOVE the video

[@tme3305]

the doc hasn't aged terribly well, especially where its portrayal of mango at the end is concerned, but it was mostly made in 2019 and i don't think emplemon can be faulted for not seeing the drastic changes in 2020 coming. i've also heard complaints about it minimizing the roles of the other gods in melee's progression, but like, it's a documentary about hbox. for its purposes, the other gods are only relevant insofar as their stories intersect with his. a lot of the dislike seems to just be about the doc portraying hbox favorably. i've seen and heard a lot of hbox hate over the years, and i have yet to find any of it terribly persuasive.

[@TheStrangeBloke]

This video glosses over how rude he could be in person at times, but yeah. The big problem with this doc is really how big it is. It's not super hard on Mang0. It's sort of hard on Leffen. But its mostly just huge. The clout disparity means that people like Leff and Mang0 and such are constantly dealing with people coming in having only seen the doc.

[@Srijan_D]

It's ironic that the success of the doc has made it less credible as hungrybox became a lot more liked by the community because of the doc. Literally suffering from success.

[@mendo1738]

@@Srijan_D idk if it makes the doc less credible, for the time he's very much correct now thankfully in todays times hbox isn't overly hated with some people here and there still being goofy

[@SpudRusset]

Can’t believe lemon couldn’t predict the future, L KZbinr for sure

[@rannynihilius8481]

It's just day and night when you compare how reasonable and understanding the comments here are compared to moky's chat. I wonder who is meant in the doc when talking about a large haterbase when moky has to actually argue that just objective points in melee's history are true.

[@exploringthedepths74]

I remember when I first watched this video. I had no idea about the competitive melee scene nor did I really care to know. I thought I would get super board and definitely not watch 1 hour of it but I liked emplemons videos so I watched it anyways. God dam. I was fucking glued to the screen by the half way point. It was so hype and fun. I had no idea how excited I would be to learn about the competitive history of melee of all things. It was exactly right up my ally. I became a super fan of melee and the community from that video. Everything about the community interested me and I consumed so much content about it. The old and new. That single video got me really into melee.

[@250R1983lover]

EmpLems documentary 100% made me not only a Jigglypuff fan, but a fan of competitive melee!

[@pedropereira6888]

amazing how every time I see someone react to any documentary style video that uses analogies there's just a massive amount of people in chat taking it literally and calling it a stretch

[@MMCLLC7]

im someone who never knew anything about the melee world or cared at all about getting to know it before this video. i was a longtime fan of emplemon so anything he uploads ill at least check out out of curiosity even if the subject isnt up my alley. a lot of emplemons fans like his videos not for the topics specifically, but for his editing, writing, storytelling, research, and commitment to the subject matter and giving it justice no matter how "shallow" or "sophisticated." after watching this vid, i was glad i did, because he made the melee community and much of its lore palatable for someone like me.

[@Ryzard]

The malding about mang0 is all hindsight. People were adamant that he was washed. I remember it, and I barely paid attention to melee at the time.

[@Mike-vs1gf]

His videos are good in general. He does a random spattering of topics that he just seems to be interested in

[@AlinaAniretake]

even his Jimmy Kimmel, or Trump won by memes one?

[@theonewhodoesrants]

I'm pretty sure EmpLemon has mentioned a few times that, to some extent, the bias is intentional. He just wanted to make a better story. While that makes it a bit less enjoyable for people who know how much he's stretching the truth, I definitely think it makes it a more interesting watch for his audience (i.e., casual gamers, peope who have heard of the game in passing but never invested)

[@traplover6357]

Obviously there's lots of romanticism of players' journeys and their narrative in the meta + community. But that's the nature of a fan documentary.

[@mini8964]

It misses a few notes but overall its pretty good

[@xXxXimenaXxXx]

i had no idea who hbox was and barely followed melee but emplemons doc is one of my favorite youtube videos ever

[@_Majunior]

"PROJECT M" Instant "uh oh" lmao

[@evilded2]

What's wrong with project M?

[@_Majunior]

@@evilded2 I think the uh oh was because of the whole cancelling of pm and its relationship with Nintendo

[@TheTELproductions]

I've never heard of "Project M" what are you talking about

[@PhenylSSBU]

People don’t understand that the god “status” for mang0 was in question. Not his god “legacy”. Of course, he’s arguably the goat, but cmon saying he’s not at least A LITTLE washed (during 2017-2020) is d-riding without thinking.

[@islandboy9381]

Especially d-riding when at the same time they question hbox's god status after he doesn't reach first place in a major for 1 year.

[@vulblhotdiessfi]

@@islandboy9381 there were only ~3 majors for 2 years straight, while most other years had more than 10. I'm pretty sure missing 3 tournaments in a row shouldn't be "after he doesn't reach first place in a major for 1 year." Because whilst it's technically true, It's pretty disingenuous

[@colebresnehen38]

I keep seeing people saying “Hbox has given plenty of reasons to dislike him it’s not just puff” but I just wanna know what specifically? Obnoxious pop offs, cheating on his girlfriend like 10 years ago, and that made up story from an old Leffen video are the only things I can think of. If those are the reasons fair enough I guess, but it seems rather innocuous compared to the other shit smashers have done

[@colebresnehen38]

Oh also I forgot about the DI peeking which is as funny as it is grimy; also looked it up and apparently he’s been verging on predatory behavior which is definitely a reason to dislike him. It’s just silly how the reason I always seem to see (on KZbin at least) is just that he ledge stalls

[@TopOfAllWorlds]

@@colebresnehen38 that stuff happened a long time ago and he appologized for it like 2 years ago. I haven't hesrd anything controversial recently.

[@michiganisthebeststate1081]

I can see why people dislike Hbox as a person but Leffen is definitely 100x worse. The only reason why he didnt get as much hate was because he played a "sick" character.

[@mendo1738]

@@michiganisthebeststate1081 and cause he fueled the hbox hate

[@Callie_with_a_bible]

@@michiganisthebeststate1081 Exactly, Hbox atleast has the balls to straight up say "I know...what I did was wrong and I am sorry" sure some people will never forgive him, but again atleast he has the balls to apologize. Leffen on the other hand has never said he's sorry

[@TSMSnation]

people saying this is dated meanwhile its talking about stuff from 10+ years ago, like btch its a doc? it tells history it can't be dated, it IS a date. i know yall have a 2 second attention span but come on brah.

[@jakezepeda1267]

Its mostly people mad that Mang0's was criticized.

[@CristianGarcia]

Very good documentary, good story telling, well produced, only way it's bad is if you hate hbox a priori.

[@ron_ald69]

mono took a break from getting wet n wild with his boys to get us this video (thank you)

[@meleefromscratch]

This was my first piece of melee content I ever watched, then the new docs came out and now I make melee tutorials on KZbin. I’d prob still be playing ult if it weren’t for Emp.

[@chavastral9245]

Kinda dummy to watch a video titled "There will never be another player like Hungrybox" and not expect bias

[@thomaslodger7675]

Wouldn't you expect a documentary to be impartial?

[@chavastral9245]

@@thomaslodger7675 Exactly, kinda stupid to complaint a documentary that is CENTRALIZED rather than impartial

[@wibbz_baby]

This is how i got into melee

[@reglewd]

this doc got me into melee and now its easily my favorite game of all time

[@sheikneedles9250]

Puff is still the most hated hbox just has a fan base of all the people that don't feel that way

[@SpookySkeletonGang]

The part you took issue with wasn't even wrong at the time, to be fair. It was referring to 2018 and mango had fallen off slightly (ranked 6th, didn't win a major), so yes he had kinda "lost his god status". The video had already established gods winning most tournaments so it fits with that, even if now it seems weird. And yes hbox was number 1 by a wide margin. Looking at it now it feels weird, but mango turned his results around big time. When he says stuff like "the last of the gods" he means the last of the gods that were dominant and winning everything, which at the time was TRUE. I would also like to point out, the reason mango wasn't viewed more favorably at the end was because the videos latest tournament was pound 2019, which was before mango had won anything that year. It wouldn't be until a month later that mango wins goml, and it wouldn't be until 5 months after that where he won big house. So it definitely wasn't inaccurate, it was just written at an unfortunate time for mango lol. Still some weird analogies don't get me wrong, but I don't believe the information was presented poorly.

[@kestrel7493]

This video was made in 2020 Sure 2018 was rough for Mango but he avoided mango being 3rd in 2019 with a super major win. He was pushing a narrative, which isn't an awful thing to do, but he could have incorporated mango into it in a way that skewed things a little less An idea I have: Call mango washed in the 2018 part of the video, but at the end simple have 1 line how their relationship isn't as hateful anymore (which even at the time was true) and go to thr "the community needs to accept hbox" but then say "he doesn't have to be alone at the top" and that their rivalry can continue, but friendly this time" 2 lines would clear that up for me. Still love the doc tho

[@SpookySkeletonGang]

@@kestrel7493 he didn't talk about 2019 because videos like this take MONTHS to write, WEEKS to edit, don't get released right away, get re-edits and re-writes, and it was focused around the crab at pound 2019. That tournament took place in April of that year, before mango had any serious wins in the year. Goml that mango won that year was in may, and he won big house in October. So yes it was accurate for the time.

[@EvilApple567]

The analogies aren't even "weird", this video wasn't made for the Melee community. It was made first and foremost as an entertaining and accessible opinionated narrative, and it clearly succeeded in doing so given its reach and feedback outside our community. Every one of Emp's videos uses cyclical elements like this to paint a bigger picture and tell a compelling story, and just like Summoning Salt he has the ability to suck you in to whatever topic he chooses (anyone who can pique my interest in Nascar makes me assured of that). Obviously the video is biased and our community's reputation mildly suffered as a result of it, but we've been through and recovered from much worse (this certainly wasn't the biggest blow to Melee in 2020), and to insult the quality of the video itself for what it set out to do is near ludicrous.

[@SpookySkeletonGang]

@@nifaso no, he probably started writing it in 2019 after pound and the crab throw, which was before mango started getting good results again. Did you not read my comments?

[@EvilApple567]

@@nifaso Pretty much everyone's in agreement the Mango slander was unwarranted, however at the same time to say he competed on an equal level as Hbox and Armada (in terms of consistency and results) in the couple of years leading up to this video's story would also be disingenuous.

[@xxim_just_jamxx]

Emp's melee video is on par with an Asumsaus vid in terms of production, definitely a must watch if you care about the game

[@Aarlaeoss]

The thing is that Emplemon is just really good. Also I now play melee because of that video.

[@Slasher9987]

Insane people hate on this just because it calls out there awful behavior towards hbox

[@FlamingZelda3]

On the mang0 comment: As someone who predominately watched melee from 2015-2017 I felt mang0 was a has-been and everyone claiming he was the best player ever or unstoppable were living in the past (2013) Aside from a single Mang0 Armada Fox ditto set in grands, I never got to see mang0 perform well in bracket & I was honestly annoyed people kept raving about how amazing he was. I presume nothing significant happened between 2017-2020 to change that narrative. So saying Mang0's potency as a challenger was in question I feel was very accurate. (Again, after watching melee for 5 years I'd never seen mang0 do much better than S2J or Plup.)

[@FlamingZelda3]

Just to clarify, Saying he was no longer a god is RIDICULOUS. M2K remained a god all the way until he stopped playing. If PPMD were to come back to tournaments today he would STILL BE one of the 5 gods of melee.

[@ntq6887]

as someone who really liked the doc. Honestly that's the least accurate part. While between 2015 and 2018 Mang0 was in a bit of a slump compared to other years, he still performed at least decently vs the other gods. His worst year was 2018 as he didn't win a major during that year, and even then he was ranked 6th and could contend alright vs the other top players. In 2019 he went back to win 3 majors incluiding the Big House and GOML and was ranked 3rd in that year (arguably should've been 2nd over Leffen imo). By the time the Hbox doc was made, it was fair to say Mang0 still had it.

[@VJ-Vice]

I didn't even realize it was a controversial video. I was a part of the Smash 4 community at the time, but I've been spectating Melee since 2014, and everything when it came to the toxicity matched up with what I saw

[@mendo1738]

it's not controversial at all imo, only people who really disliked it are people who can't see past their hate for hbox. like even the parts where "it gets worse" were still true in nature and only phrased a little weird like the mang0 part and the way the fgc sees melee/smash was how melee saw hbox, and honestly that last part was like objectively true in almost all ways possible obviously not down to a literal sense but I feel like it's just a true statement.

[@happymonkeyfish]

All emplemons videos are great, his American psychos one and the art of the choke are my favorites

[@matarel]

that must be one of my favorite videos of all ytb ever

[@quillllly]

Keep in mind that I don't play Melee, and I'm only just getting into it as a spectator, but the way I interpreted it I really don't think he was trying to call Mango washed? From my (again, very limited) understanding the whole concept of the "5 gods" was that they rarely lost to anyone other than each other. At the time of this video's release, unless I'm mistaken, I think you could at least make the argument that HBox was the only one of the original 5 that this still applied to. I don't think Emp was trying to say that Mango wasn't good anymore, just that he wasn't insanely dominant compared to other top players. Also if you were to use this logic you could probably argue the same for HBox now? Like you could argue that none of the gods still have their god status or whatever.

[@Tone_TC]

Bronol made 6 great documentaries about the 5 gods and leffen, they were praised by the gods and are really well made, there’s subtitles too

[@Samuel-dn2ol]

I see how someone could dislike the last 20 or so minutes of the doc, the constant dismissal of other players and blatant disregard of Mang0s latent skill was incredibly apparant and reveals a deep-seated bias, however, in spite of this the doc manages to weave a narrative that was compelling to casual and competitor alike. While wordy and perhaps a bit overdramatic, I feel that the analogy between Hbox and Melee was well applied and from a narrative perspective ties that segment of the video up nicely, however, I can still see how someone could find it distasteful. That being said... Disliking the video for the first hour or so is pretty nonsensical, it effectivley just shows you through a narrative what occured and why it happened, you know... like a good documentary. The point of something like this is to give the audience a reason to be interested, so if you create a video that is bereft of any dramatization or story-telling you get a dry and informational video that doesnt really move you in any way. Honestly i think the only people who dislike this documentary are top-players who themselves dislike hbox, people who are incapable of seeing a piece of media for its whole, bandwagoning sub 75 iq twitch chatters whose tiny ratlike brains can only barely mouth off whatever their favorite streamer dumped into their empty heads that day, or people who vehemently dislike him for any othe reason. Everyone else who plays melee and isnt a complete lunatic can probably admit that if anything this doc was well-structured, well-written and well-edited, or at the very least good for exposure to the community.

[@FirstLast-mn4re]

This video IS HungryBox.

[@Rockleefan3]

Back then Mang0 was indeed very sporadically there. It was the era of Axe, Wizzy, Leffen and HBox. With Zain and Cody sprinkled in. And the FGC is Fox and Smash is Puff Analogy was perfect in my mind back then. My problem with the doc is actually just the sappy presentation. Very American-y/history channel-y, if you know what I mean.

[@plabcentral630]

People hate him for playing optimally. Grow up.

[@NightGhost1400]

This video got me fully into melee

[@gsef4157]

i joined the scene bc of the emp lemon vid

[@GameTheoryOptimal]

I started playing melee because of this documentary

[@OGMeaty2020]

EmpLemon really slept on the kid lmao

[@Ryleeman54number2]

People who hate this video just have no clue what its like looking into the scene from the outside (especially pre Covid)

[@boodstain]

I don't really blame Emp for not understanding Mango, and I don't hate on that video because of it. For hardcore melee fans I definitely understand the hate but I'd say overall it's a great doc on one of melee's most important people (and in my opinion) I do think HBOX will be the last of the gods at one point, either by Mango "retiring" before or moving on. HBOX just doesn't seem the guy to move on to the new stuff as easily after all he worked for in melee, it'd be going back to step 1. and while he (and any of the gods for that matter) could do it and move on to another game like Ultimate and reach their "god era" again, I don't see HBOX being the first to make that transition.

[@matthewroberts6833]

This is the guy who literally has hosted and participated in dozens of Ultimate tournaments and is the foremost public advocate for telling Nintendo to support Smash. The idea that Hbox would be the rigid one is wild.

[@carsondubs]

This EmpLemon guy has some really good content! I hope he doesn't have any highly controversial options on Etika!

[@chairwood]

does he ??

[@Easy801]

@@chairwood just look up emplemon etika and decide for yourself

[@AdThe1st]

Oh yikes, man went off the deep end

[@jessemaldonado9612]

@@Easy801 I thought the etika statement was taken out of context.

[@TopOfAllWorlds]

@@jessemaldonado9612 it was, it litterally just took less then 30 seconds to look it up.

[@ChrisVickeryinajar]

his nascar video is unironically good and will somehow make you care about nascar, though you'll still never watch it.

[@mendo1738]

emplemon is the fucking man when it comes to a youtube docu series he can make you feel for anything imo